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09:50 PM UK
Someone once suggested to me that it would be useful if this site (http://www.lower-edmonton.co.uk/) had a message board thing. So now it has...

I don't suppose it will be used much, or at all, as the site isn't exactly frequently visited ;-)
Edited 02-02-2001 09:52 PM
01:14 AM UK
ahhh Edmonton my homeland

i've escaped the poo hole that is edmonton - especially the green - but every now and then i'm forced to return, i'm lucky enough to have some great buds in edmonton but unfortunatly i hate the place....well....maybe not it is home after all.
01:17 AM UK
ere graham how long ya been in edmonton? are you indiginous?
Graham Johnson
05:55 PM UK
Yep, I'm indiginous. What's more I was born and bred here :-) 37 years so far...
ian stocker
11:45 PM UK
hey buddy,

the test for a true edmontonite

you must be a member or a regular at at least 1 of the following

KCM club
the cart overthrown pub
that weird-ass club opposite the petrol station near the cafe.
11:49 PM UK
I am obviously not a true edmontonite then :-(
ian stocker
11:52 PM UK
do not take offence young one for a stranger is simply a friend you havn't met yet......shit now i sound like the weird ass bloke that hangs around down the green shouting 'pancakes' at passers by!
Graham Johnson
02:58 PM UK
That for real? There are some really strange people around there! It is a dump but somehow it has character. Unlike Enfield Town which is completely sterile.
ian stocker
09:04 PM UK
what really peed me of about 'the homeland' is that when i was at school (which was not too long ago) not only did we have to share one text book between 3 people but we also had to share one teacher between 3 classes - because there wasn't enough money! then enfield council in their infinite wisdom spent over 30000 on that concrete bell 'sculpture' at the angel!
12:00 AM UK
There are also the big signs across the road welcoming you to the Angel Edmonton shopping centre and thanking you for shopping there. Great, but there don't actually seem to be any shops. Banks, building societies, big name fast food stores and a ridiculously large pub etc but no shops for people to be there in the first place.

The flag poles outside Edmonton Green annoy me. No flags, just flag poles. Obviously more important to have flag poles than filling in the six inch deep craters in the road next to them.
10:42 AM UK
Hi - I'm wanting information on Edmonton - specifically - is there a pub in the area called "The Royal Oak", and if so, what is the street address of it please. Thanks a lot.
10:47 AM UK
Yes, it is me again...that pub might be Upper Edmonton? Anyone know? And also...I want to know about markets in the area...with lock-ups...what are the biggest markets around...where would I go to buy or sell second-hand records, for example? Appreciate any help. Thanks.
01:51 PM UK

I would expect pubs to be in the phone books and there isn't a Royal Oak listed for Edmonton or even Enfield. So unless it is a new pub or a recent name change then it doesn't seem promising. The name does seem familiar but then it is a typical pub name so that doesn't mean anything.

Biggest permanent local market would be Edmonton Green I guess. Don't remember seeing anything in the way of second hand records there.
02:13 PM UK
I suppose if we stretch the definition of "the area" a bit we could pull in Chingford. There is a Royal Oak pub there at
219 Kings Head Hill. That is just the other side of the two reservoirs to the east of Edmonton on the main road between them and so is the sort of place a local might be aware of. Stretching the point a bit though...
ian stocker
07:46 PM UK
ya used to be able to buy and sell records, tapes cd's etc in 'inn shops' on edmonton green.

ere that royal oak pub, is that the one owned by terry venables dad in chingford?
10:32 AM UK
Hey out there...thanks so much Ian and Graham for the info. Intend to go to the Royal Oak in Chingford and check it out...will locate it on my London A-Z - is the area reasonably safe? Is it hilly around there, or flat? And what about Upper Edmonton? Hilly or flat? I ask a lot of questions huh? Is there a local newspaper specific to Edmonton? Thanks also for the info on the market...will go there too. Cheers! Amelia *smile*
10:34 AM UK
P.S. who is Terry Venables?
10:41 AM UK
Gee - that pub looks miles away from where I thought it would be...do either of you know if there is a Royal Oak in Tottenham? I've tried the British Telecom page on the internet, but there are so many Royal Oaks, and not knowing the postal codes makes it tricky to work out where they are.
Hmmmmmm - I can't possibly drink at them all. Amelia.
11:37 AM UK
Hello Amelia,

Interesting questions. Edmonton (Lower and Upper) are very flat. Geographically we are basically on the wide flood plain of the River Lee and the valley sides are a mile or to west. A railway bridge is the nearest we get to a hill here.

I haven't been to Chingford for many, many years and only have childhood memories but I do recall that to the east of the reservoirs you go up a big hill and when you look down it is like being by the sea as you don't see the road or the far side. The pub would be at the bottom of the hill so I would imagine so it would be fairly flat. Why the interest? Wheelchair bound or something? Or a pedal bike rider?

I tend to think of Edmonton as pretty safe. I certainly don't think of it as bandit country. Edmonton is in the borough of Enfield so the local free papers are the Enfield Independent and the Enfield Advertiser.

I looked up the Royal Oak in the BT / Yellow Pages / Thomson Local on the internet as well! My knowledge of Post Codes is a bit limited as well (Lower Edmonton N9, Upper Edmonton N18, Tottenham N17, Enfield EN<something>) but I couldn't see anything nearer. There is a Royal Oak in Woodford Green which is down a bit from Chingford but again not obviously near to Edmonton. The name of the pub suggests something Epping Forest like back in history so that would put it east of Edmonton. What is the interest in a Royal Oak pub?

Do you really not know Terry Venables? Irony doesn't work in e-mail so I can't tell if you were joking. Well known ex-footballer, and football manager (England, Tottenham, QPR, Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, Australia, Barcelona etc). Mind you with a "Gee" in your message you could be American!
10:11 PM UK
Hello there Graham. You really have been most helpful, thank you. No, I am not American. I am a kiwi, currently living in New Zealand, although I have spent many years living off and on in Australia (where I was actually born). I will be in London in June for a couple of weeks on holiday. The interest in the pub stems from the fact that I have an old aquaintance who lives in the area, and I have always said that one day I will just turn up and ring and say "Hey, I am at your local!". And as far as I knew, or know, that local is the Royal Oak near Tottenham High Road, but I am seriously wondering now whether I have got that wrong. The query on markets is because I like to shop! The query on geography is because I like to walk around and explore...at 38 years of age I may even still be able to do the biking thing, and I am fairly sure I will not require a wheelchair! The query on safety is because I travel alone, and it pays to be cautious. I have to admit ignorance when it comes to Terry Venables. We have a rubgy team in New Zealand called the All Blacks, and that is about as far as my sports knowledge goes. I was thinking of taking up golf one of these days though...does that count for something? Amelia :-)
10:18 PM UK
Are you a historian Graham? Yeah, yeah I know I ask too many questions!
Mark Fisher
11:31 PM UK
I lived in Edmonton for 29 years, the place is such a shit hole I moved to Scotland last year to get away from it.
11:34 PM UK
No I am not a historian, I am a computer systems administrator. I am not even especially interested in history or heritage per se but I don't like change for the sake of change and it nice to see how things have changed. The lower-edmonton.co.uk site was just something I did for a little amusement (I am the the Graham as in graham@lower-edmonton.co.uk).

Near Tottenham High Road huh? Hmm, that presumably places it in Tottenham then! Maybe it has had a name change over the years. There is that change for change sake thing...

You might need the wheelchair if you do a tour of all the Royal Oaks!
11:35 PM UK
Sh*t hole huh? Hmm, and getting worse. But there are far bigger tips than Edmonton.
11:43 PM UK
Thank you for your input Mark, I shall bear your comment in mind.
11:45 PM UK
Oh ho, so you are THAT Graham, Graham. *smile* Well, I think this site is a great idea...I have certainly made the most of it! Yep, you are right, if I visited all those pubs not only would I would need a wheelchair..I'd also require someone to push it! Amelia.
ian stocker
12:31 AM UK
hi dudes

true there are worse (more dangerous) places than edmonton, but i feel that it is essential to be aware that there are places that you don't wan't to be after dark. stay away from the station and the green after nightfall especially.

i find the 'danger' aspect of london in general changes with the seasons, everyone is so much more laid back during the summer and sunny weather, but when the weather is bad everyone turns into a spam head!

there is also a 'tottenham court road' in london - strangely enough no where near tottenham, is it possible the royal oak could be there?

however if your after a bit of decent english culture - sample the 'football' culture and go to the cockeral bar in totttenham high street when they are showing a live spurs match!
01:08 AM UK
Hi Ian, thanks for your suggestion on how to sample English Culture, but I think I'd better give English soccer fans and their local haunts a miss. *smile* Amelia.
ian stocker
01:11 AM UK
01:36 AM UK
Go the Gunners!
01:37 AM UK
And I thought the way to any man's heart was through his tummy......
01:44 AM UK
You were kidding, right Ian?
09:56 AM UK
Must admit even after all the years I have never really been anywhere in Edmonton at night except coming home by bus and train to the stations at The Green. That is OK as you are on the move and also the buses and trains are well used. I am not too sure I'd appreciate loitering to catch a train or bus though.
10:13 AM UK
Hmmmmmmm - ok Graham I shall be careful.
10:14 AM UK
Arsenal beats Chelsea 3 to 1 - it's amazing what one can learn when one has to! Impressed Ian?
10:25 AM UK
Should add that I haven't avoided going anywhere at night. Just haven't been out full stop.

As a Chelsea supporter, 3-1 was a sore point.
06:54 PM UK
ian stocker
07:51 PM UK
i can't believe i'm stuck in a room with a gunner and a chelsea fan ... wots goin on wiv the world?


07:56 PM UK
Yes, but this Chelsea fan did about a season and a half on the old Shelf and indeed that was before I started going to Chelsea regularly. Saw the last part of Glenda's last season and most home games the next and a little of the next if I remember rightly (it was quite a while ago).
ian stocker
08:33 PM UK
th efuture's bright my friend and its blue n white come to paxton road and be free ... yid army!
09:07 PM UK
Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh - ENOUGH ALREADY! Amelia knows NOTHING about football!
09:10 PM UK
All Ian's fault, of course.
09:13 PM UK
What does "yid Army" mean please?
09:55 PM UK
Well Yiddish is a language spoken by some Jews in Europe and from that has been derived the slang term "yid" which used to be derogatory but has become less offensive through common use.

There is a large Jewish community to the south of Tottenham (including one particular sect whose name escapes me who wear black wide rimmed hats and are known as "the Stamford Hill cowboys" - and I first heard that from a rabbi!) and Spurs (Tottenham Hotspur) have a large following from that community. So rival supporters called the Spurs supporters "Yids", or "Yiddos" as something of an insult. However these days it has swapped round and although Spurs supporters are still called Yids it is no longer particularly abusive and it is something the Spurs supporters call themselves. As far as I am aware that is a change that has taken place in the last decade.
10:02 PM UK
So where do you live in New Zealand Amelia? I don't know an awful lot about it though I have met quite a few Kiwis (usually barmaids!). Kiwis assure me the stories about the sheep are true and I know that velcro was invented there but not a lot more. The suggestion that a roll of velcro can be used instead of a passport to enter the country came from an Aussie and I suspect was untrue :-)

I can never remember which accent is which! I think the acid test is "pan, pen, pin" and either Aussies or Kiwis pronounce them all the same.
10:22 PM UK
:-) Hi there Graham, your message did make me smile. I'm in Wellington, am not a barmaid, and don't have a pet sheep. Accent? We kiwis don't have an accent. Hmmmmm - I thought the acid test was "fish n chips" - a true blue would say "feesh n cheeps", whereas a kiwi would say "fush and chups" :-). Yep, the velcro test sounds like an Aussie trick, but I can't be too rude, as I have lived across the ditch off and on for years...can't seem to make up my mind which country to stay in! Ah ha, the information on the slang term "yid" was interesting - I'm sure I will get caught out on a few cultural differences whilst I am in London. What's the weather doing...I want sunshine! Cheers, Amelia.
10:25 PM UK
Am going right now to pick up my tickets...wonder if I can insure against the weather over there!
11:29 PM UK
Have tickets, will travel *smile* Hey Graham, I just found my way to your home page. Interesting. You would quite possibly throw your hands up in despair at my computer skills...the learning curve has been vertical, but hey...I'm getting there!
12:10 AM UK
Oh right, Wellington. You'd need to be in Dunedin to have a pet sheep (or so I am told)...

June wasn't it? You should be fine weather wise. We don't normally get extremes of weather so what we call sunny might not be what you call sunny. Gets warmer more towards August but still normally T-shirt weather in June (with a thin coat to hand).

You found my home page? Oh hang on, it is easier than I thought as I seem to have been indexed by the search engines now. Interesting that doing a search on Yahoo! came up with a toilet repairs site!
12:42 AM UK
Ahhhhhh Dunedin, way down south...great place. Yep...I found your home page, but not by design I have to admit. I lost this address, and so typed Lower Edmonton into the MSN Search Engine...came up with "Graham Johnston's Home Page" amongst other things. And being nosy, I looked at it! Cheeky, huh? *smile* Amelia.
09:34 AM UK
You most certainly did *not* find a "t" in my surname :-) So http://www.lower-edmonton.co.uk/ wasn't as memorable as I thought!
09:58 AM UK
oopsy I seem to have put my foot in it
04:52 PM UK
Born in Edmonton 1964'got to hectic for me,so moved to Isle of wight 1990.Still got most of family in Edmonton and visit often.Butit's not the same anymore and it's nice to get back to a place with hardly any serious crime and no refugees.Nice to see the tower block are comming down.
04:57 PM UK
The tower blocks above the shopping centre seem quite attractive as far as tower blocks go but I have always disliked the other ones, though they haven't looked so ugly in recent years. I was looking forwards to some nice big bangs as they were demolished but sadly asbestos means they are being taken down piece by piece over several years. Pity...
ian stocker
09:16 PM UK
09:27 AM UK
What are tower blocks? Are they council housing? Is there a large refugee population in Edmonton? Amy.
09:49 AM UK
Tower blocks as in multi-storey apartment buildings (say 20 storeys or so). In the 1960s they were seen as a great solution for low cost housing. Generally used for council housing.


...shows the tower blocks over Edmonton Green shopping centre.


...shows the ones I really don't like and that are going to be demolished.

There are increasing numbers of "refugees" or "asylum seekers" or whatever you like to call them in Edmonton and nearby areas because landlords have realised it is a way of making very easy guaranteed money. Suffice to say that a number of them act in ways guaranteed to make them unpopular.
ian stocker
07:15 PM UK
its my bestest buddies 21st birthday on saturday so i'm a comming back to sunny edmontonia for the weekend! once again i face the challenge to survive 3 days without getting mugged or assaulted! can the young boy do it? bets now being taken at willia hill bookies all over london!

the homeland awaits!
08:45 PM UK
Good luck Ian,I suvived a week a while back but my car didn't.Someone must have been cold so they took it for a spin then set it on fire.C YA
11:19 PM UK
Hey there Graham, thanks for the photos, they were fantastic. Bit of an eye opener for me...we have no high rise housing estates like that in New Zealand. Council housing here consists of detached homes, or semi-detached homes, built in wood generally, and they have gardens and are single storey dwellings most often. I can't imagine what life would be like in one of those Tower Blocks, especially for a family. Trevor's and Ian's text messages do not inspire a huge amount of confidence with regards to doing a bit of exploring on my own - I might have to stick to the tourist spots, and forget all about the Royal Oak (where-ever it is!). Amelia.
11:36 PM UK
There isn't really anything to see in Edmonton or to explore really. It is just a slightly tatty suburban town. If you are making the effort to come over here you really need to be exploring central London which is about 10 miles away. The only reason to be in the Edmonton area is because you are meeting your friend!
ian stocker
10:45 PM UK
11:13 PM UK
Never tried Tottenham Hale but I've often come from Seven Sisters to Edmonton Green by the last train just after midnight and by bus substantially beyond that. Always plenty of people about so although I don't like it very much I don't find is such a big deal. I am not sure I would want to make the reverse journey though and be hanging around the bus stops or the empty station, and I feel happier that I keep moving when I arrive.
07:44 PM UK
Ian, how did the visit go then? Just been watching Spurs v West ham, good mood now ready 4 a few beers 2nite.C ya from IOW
10:53 PM UK




Trev IOW
03:52 AM UK
Even thou I've long left Edm,I still keep coming back 2 this page 2c what happening around there. When r those tower blocks in victoria rd comming down? My sis lives very close & not looking forward 2 the mess, but glad they r going.Why r they putting refugees in them b4 they pull them down?Is ppi still a mad pub?
06:25 PM UK
Not sure when they are pulling them down. It will be something like a five year programme though as they will be taken down piece by piece because of the asbestos problem. It will be one at a time so the others will still be usable I should imagine.
01:01 AM UK
Trev _IOW
04:01 AM UK
Who got shot down the green,now you know why I live on IOW.The biggest crime we have here is minor stuff like car sterio's getting nicked etc.All my family comming 2 visit soon & I'll be comming 2 Edmonton 4 few days.
12:12 AM UK
my lovely buddy has got me a ticket for the fa cup semi final - c'mon ya yids - the homeland awaits!
Rob Godfrey
07:42 PM UK
My mum & dad, Elsie & Bob Godfrey came from Lower Edmonton as did most of the rest of my relations. Unfotunatley my Dad has now passed on but my Mum is sill alive and well and living in Clacton.

My Dads cousins used to run Godfrey's the Bathroom merchants near the Station and my Uncle Fred Smith used to work in the barbers West's on the Green.

My cousin John Hitchens was a mate of Chas, from Chas and Dave and lived opposite him in Harton Road. We have all been brought up on the Super Spurs.

If you want to contact me my email is godfreyr@skynow.net
04:47 PM UK
i like cheese sandwiches!

does anyone else share my love for cheese?

what are your favourite cheeses i wonder?
09:50 AM UK
Yep, I love cheese. My favourite is a Danish soft white - Castello by name...it's YUM. Hmmmmmmmm...cheese sandwiches...sure, I like those too. But I've not tried the English cheeses yet...soon though, soon! Bye.
11:50 PM UK
ok i havn't spoke to anyone since the smi final i hate bloody arsenal it cost me 100 + to get up to old trafford from devon and we bloody lost again, but as arsenal lost the final it was bloody funny in the end - cheese i consider packaged cheese such as dairylee to be sacraligous!
05:58 AM UK
Hmmmmmmmmm - soccer. I always thought the way to a man's heart was through his stomach, but rumour has it the way to an Englishman's heart is through his soccer team. Coming from a nation of rugby players I think I would fare rather dismally then. We do make good cheese in this hemisphere though. I'm not talking the processed to plastic varieties here...REAL cheese Ian, cut off a wheel, bries and soft whites and blues - *heaven* - goes best with imported Italian fig bread, that is for sure. And feta...ahhhhh, feta. I'm off to raid the fridge. Amy.
12:40 AM UK
say amilia, its quite hard to find a bird who appreciates cheese as much as me (for some reason???) i don't spose your single, good looking, in the 19-23 age range and easy as erm... eating pancakes? are you?

02:00 AM UK
:-) Like a good cheese Ian, I have matured with age.
03:14 AM UK
1 hour later...

On reflection, I may have done myself a terrible injustice, and be labelled before my time as one of the Blue Rinse Brigade. Ahem...therefore, I wish to announce to all and sundry...that at 39 years of age I have yet to find a grey hair, and walking sticks and hearing aids are not yet part of my retinue. It's down to the cheese of course. Now Ian, on to more important matters...I have it on very good authority that the English Stilton should not be missed...and as I shall be over there shortly, perhaps you would be so good as to make a recommendation. Hmmmmmm - mind you, I hear the Stout is not to be missed as well...looks like I'll be eating and drinking my way around London. Grrrrrrrrrr - that does not conjure up a terribly flattering image either, and so before any of you out there ask, NO, I am not a fatty. Yours from the land of kiwis, Amy.
12:09 AM UK
39 a? well not too old i spose, mature women seem to know what they're doing (cos lets face it i aint got a clue) . well before i start getting rude n crude i shall simply make some suggestions

1. london is pretty shit for a better time visit devon and cornwall
2. if ya must visit london drink guinnes, the irish claim to have invented it but really they stole the idea from me and my dad all those years ago after we made a batch in our garden shed.
3.best pubs in edmonton are 'the cart overthrown', and the beef and barrel' both in lovely areas with lovely people (i suggest running after dark)
06:23 AM UK
I used to live in Edmonton and i never knew how much that place meant to me until i had to move to stupid florida (america is not as great as it sounds, land of opportunites yea right thats a bunch of crap) I move to florida in '97. my uncle had lied to us and told us that this is a great place and if we need any help we can come to him anytime (what a lie) he hasnt helped us any but my dad still loves him it not getting through his head that my uncle was just jealous of our great life in London. So we left our beautiful house on Malvern Terrace and moved into an ugly apartment in florida, well since we've been here we've lost like thosands of dollars, and I've never met sooo many rude uncaring people in my life.
My point is that dont ever diss edmonton the place is beautiful and u wont believe how much u love it until u leave it. (by the way whoever said edmonton green is rubbish it is not believe me).
05:16 PM UK
hi rani welcome to our happy little group. glad ya like the homeland so much, its not that bad i spose, during daylight, in the summer.

sorry florida sounds a bit on the shat side, but now your one of us you have a link to home any time ya like (if you could induct lots of single efemale 19-23 year olds that would also be nice)
08:22 PM UK
I have just discovered this site and thought that I would introduce myself. First though, I would like to thank Graham for making this possible.
OK then, I was born in Tottenham but my parents moved to Lower Edmonton in 1940 (I was one year old). I have lived in Lower Edmonton ever since, except for a very brief period in Palmers Green when I first got married. So I can claim to have been an Edmonton resident for a total of more than 60 years. In about eighteen months time, my wife and I will have been married for forty years.
To return to the subject of Edmonton, I would suggest that both Lower and Upper Edmonton have deteriorated since the abolition of Edmonton Council. Enfield seems to view Edmonton as a convenient site to place things that they do not want in Enfield. Oh dear, perhaps I should not have said that.
Mike Hallinan
08:35 PM UK
Please contact me at e.mail MikeHallinan2001@aol.com

Thank you--Edgware
02:34 PM UK
I'm looking at buying a house in Ascott Road, Upper Edmonton, N18. Can anyone give me any information about the area, what it's like to live there and get to and from central london. Are there any decent bars/restaurants? What's the crime like round there?

Edited 06-06-2001 02:34 PM
04:37 PM UK
I'm not really familiar with that area. To save others looking it up it is in the area bordered by Brettenham Road, Fore Street, Angel Road and Craig Park.

Transport is good. Edmonton Green (preferrable) and Silver Street are on a line into Liverpool Street (20-25 minutes) with trains every fifteen minutes. Seven Sisters station is about 8 minutes from Edmonton Green and is on the Victoria Line (12 minutes Euston, 20 minutes Victoria.

Buses 259 (Kings Cross), 279 and 149 feed Seven Sisters as well. 149 does Liverpool Street too.

Not sure about bars and restaurants. There are a lot of Indians along the high road which were rumoured to be good.

Plenty of food shopping around.
03:14 PM UK
I never did find that pub - so I have decided there is no 'Royal Oak' on the Tottenham High Road. London is great though, except I seem to have landed myself today in the midst of the annual Gay and Lesbian Pride parade. Would seriously recommend to all and sundry that they make a trip to the Antipodes - I'm sure the contrast in culture and lifestyle would be an eye-opener (and the sterling would go a lot further). From this Kiwi in London, Over and Out...it's been a pleasure...Amelia.
11:41 PM UK
hey well wut up in edmonton, I just got back form New Jersey oh my god i loved it, it reminded me so much of london, and my parents are thinking about moving there hope they do, so i can get outta stupid florida
Alan Roberts
03:25 PM UK
I attended Silver Street school (now Aylward school) from 1958 - 1962. Would love to hear from anyone else who was there during that time.
Colin Cornish
02:01 PM UK
I was born in Queen St Lower Edmonton and lived for most of my early life in Upper Edmonton. I emigrated to Australia in 1971 and only remember Lower Edmonton and the Green as it was. I loved the local steam trains on the Enfield to Liverpool St line and vagualy remember a steam train travelling the line by the green -although this was rare.
I am very sad to think that Edmonton was swallowed up by Enfield Council and has lost some of its character.
11:15 AM UK
im looking for uptodate ariel pics of lower edmonton, any1 out there help with this, if you know where i can find some please email me at HunyX@aol.com
have a warm day
shirl xx
02:10 PM UK
If anyone else is wondering about aerial pics, a good place to start will always be the two sites http://www.streetmap.co.uk/ and http://www.multimap.com/ which link in aerial pics to their streetmaps.
mike gough
12:01 AM UK
am i the only Black Country Boy visiting Lower Edmonton this weekend? Am i the only Wolverhampton Wanderers supporter in N9 (not including the Lady from Middlesex who is wearing a Wolves shirt because she stole it from me! All I can say to that is that she has excellent taste in men - ME! and in the football team she 'puts up with me supporting! In case anyone hasn't noticed WE ARE TOP OF THE LEAGUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though has there been a by-law passed by Enfield Council making sure that there is hardly a blade of grass anywhere but in the 'Enfield' part of the Borough? There seems to be little provision anywhere else.
mike gough
12:04 AM UK
Having just read your local newspaper why does the cultural highlight on offer to residents seem to be the Open Day being run by London Waste?
10:09 AM UK
We do have some green bits in Edmonton. Jubilee Park and Bury Lodge park count as Lower Edmonton and Pymmes Park is Upper Edmonton but on the border and there are one or two other bits dotted around. They are somewhat tatty compared to the parks elsewhere though. Then of course there is Picketts Lock where they were going to build the athletics stadium until they discovered that the latest costs were 10 million pounds less (yes less) than the original estimate which were considered OK. There is a actually a nice little lake there surrounded by the golf course but it doesn't occur to anyone to have made it possible for anyone to sit around it and appreciate it. However it certainly does seem to me that the east side of the borough is suffering more from the "oh look a spare patch of land, lets throw some houses on it" mentality.
ken askey
06:11 AM UK
iwas born at raynham rd.(car park) in 1939,i"ve lived in canada for the last forty years, whatever happened to all those places i spent my younger days, the angel, the globe and all those other places we used to hang out,its almost as bad as tottenham and enfield.
01:10 AM UK
I was wondering if anyone had any pitures of the Barbot Estate - mainly the high rise flats, it would be nice to have a picture or pictures of them to remember them by - they won't be there much longer, I don't mind if the pictures are of the demolition or taken beforehand - all is appreciated. Email me on Paul@townsend84.fsnet.co.uk
01:31 AM UK
I always used to hate the look of those flats, though they seemed to look nicer after their most recent exterior clean up. I always wanted to see them blown up actually so it was a disappointment that they have to come down bit by bit. I think that the demolition programme runs over a period of years so there should be plenty of time to get pictures.

One of these days perhaps I'll take some more myself. I just feel a bit conspicuous in Edmonton with a camera!
06:47 PM UK
I am in need of a listing of Hotels (if any) in Lower Edmonton....web sites too. I know I am asking a lot!!!
07:01 PM UK
No hotels here. Nearest is the TravelInn Enfield (http://www.travelinn.com/) which is on the A1055 (?) "north south road" and someone has one on the North Circular at the Crooked Billet roundabout. They call it Chingford I think but perhaps thats because it sounds crap if they call it Walthamstow. That might be a Holiday Inn Express (http://www.hiexpress.co.uk/) if its not a TravelInn. Depends on the nature of a visit but really its probably just as easy to stay in the City at one of the above chain or at a Travelodge (http://www.travelodge.co.uk/), albeit more expensive.
Nigel McCall
04:30 PM UK
am interested in any pre-WW2 recollections or published references about Victoria Road or Beaconsfield Road. If you can help please email: NigelTMcCall@aol.com
05:54 PM UK
I lived in Edmonton beteen the years 1931 to 1946,if you would like any information about those times I would be only pleased to supply it.

At the time mentioned I lived in ST JOSEPHS ROAD. My e mail address is bernardtur @ aol com
Tony Palmer
05:06 PM UK
Sorry Graham but I emailed you direct instead of the message service. I have reposted. Fantastic answere...see below

Hi Graham
Sorry to trouble you, great site with lots still to take in.
I was born in 1941 at 167 Winchester Road N9 along with lots of the Palmer family.
1) which is the Edmonton Parish Church
2) who can I talk to for some burial info of about Oct 1978 at the Edmonton
3) what church do you think was the local Parish church to Winchester Road.
 If you can help I would be very grateful indeed as I don't seem to be able to
get any of the info from anyone.
Looking forward to your reply
From up here during blizzard conditions in Tamworth, Staffs
Tony Palmer

Hello there.
All Saints in Church Street is the original parish church of Edmonton as it
was more or less the only one there was until the turn of the century. As
far as I am aware Winchester Road would still come under All Saints parish.
As for the other question I couldn't suggest much more than phoning them up
the church and/or the cemetery to ask.

All Saints seems to be on (020) 8803 9199 according to
http://www.enfield.gov.uk/n9wor.htm so that would be a place to start.

The cemetery would be operated by Enfield Council and they give the number
(020) 8379 3767 for information on the cemeteries so that would again seem a
good place to start.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
05:31 PM UK
Thats quite OK. I don't mind getting mail directly at all, though having questions here allows other visitors to respond. My knowledge is limited after all.
Tony Palmer
12:34 PM UK
Hi Graham
If any folks from your excelent site want me to look-up any family history records from the 1881 census I am more than happy to do so. I have many CD's that contain all of the living folk at that time with lots of extra details from the census.
02:58 AM UK
Graham - I stumbled across your site by accident today - It's wonderful, it brought back a load of generally good memories, I lived in Monmouth Road from around 1966 until 1978, my parents moved "out" from Stoke Newington, had my first Saturday job in Caters I think, on the old Green. (Thankfully there was no such thing as health inspectors back then). Spent most of my Saturday money in the Cross Keys on Red Barrell until the Daily Mirror reported that it was only 0.5% away from being a kids drink. The Cart Overthrown became my Dad's favourite. There used to be a really good Chinese restaurant in the "new" Green on the upper level that a bunch of us went to a lot.
   After my Mum died my Dad moved away, so I have not seen the old place in donkey's years. I live in Maryland now so doubt I'll get back for a while. Although after seeing how it's declined there's not much to bring me back, except the awesome Indian in Chingford.!!! Keep it up, the photos are great.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
10:47 AM UK
Oh yes Caters :-) For other readers who are wondering what you are talking about...

Caters was a supermarket. I can't remember much of the old Green myself to say where Caters was, but when the shopping centre was built it occupied the large unit opposite the library which is now the "In Shops". It changed name to Presto and eventually closed.

The library building and the floors above it were originally a Co-Op department store.
06:22 AM UK
/m106 It's tough to remember back so far. I think there was a pub on the corner (wasn't there always a pub involved in any landmark?). Caters was next, facing the market stalls. Calling it a supermarket is a slight overkill, more like a large corner shop, although as you mentioned once it moved to the new Green it was more typical of a Supermarket.
  I also had a Saturday job at a general hardware store facing the entrance to Monmouth road that spanned about three store fronts, I think it was called Vic's store although that too is taxing the memory.
  It's interesting to see they changed the Lower Edmonton station name - I used to take the train every day to Seven Sisters to get the tube to work, until I could afford a motor bike.
09:07 PM UK
I lived in Station House from about 1923! until after the war I went to school in lower Edmonton and remember the place well What became of the Cross Keys Pub ? The lights going on and off shone in my window every night as I went to sleep I played in Salmons Brook under the rail line as the Goods Trains went over
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09:20 PM UK
I will get around to mentioning the Cross Keys in the web site somewhere as it was something of a landmark. It actually lasted until the 1980s, which is more than you can say for the rest of the old Green. I can't remember if it was still active as a pub till the end but I can imagine it may have had to diversify into whatever was trendy at that time. I think it was basically destroyed by fire and it was demolished and replaced by a block of flats (surprise, surprise).
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
11:40 AM UK
Fond memories of Edmonton Green (the old Edmonton Green) - My father, Jim Cartwright and uncle, George Cartwright were stallholders on the Green. They inherited the family business which started in the 1870s and which was only interrupted by WWII when they were both conscripted into the forces. As boys they were responsible for looking after the family pony, a Shetland named Stella which used to pull their cart around the streets of Lower Edmonton in the 1920s from their father's shop in Town Road. The greengrocery was very popular with residents and the stall even more so as regular shoppers queued long before my father and uncle had 'packed-out' the stall. My grandfather, William George died during the war after falling from a box while at the stall. The business had been started by my great-grandfather who was a well-known by locals and at his death at the age of 99 and his subsequent funeral which was attended by 100+ cortege vehicles. After the war, my aunty, May, worked alongside her brothers until her retirement in 1980. As a young boy, I regularly helped my father and uncle on the stall after school and on Saturdays. It was a great time meeting so many people at the stall. I used to pull a hand barrow from our yard in St James Road to the stall. The barrow could accommodate 12cwt of potatoes, 6 bags of greens, carrots, onions, swedes and anything else that was required at the stall. It was quiet a weight to pull - it gave me muscles on muscles and was quite a good way of impressing lots of girls who shopped with their mothers at the stall. The stall was the last but one on the Green. Opposite was Gearys (the baker), and the stall was close to The Exhibition pub. During the 1930s there were no regular pitches and my grandfather had to rush at the sound of a policeman's whistle to claim his pitch. But as my grandfather was a drinking partner of the policeman he always got the best pitch. There were some very old buildings around the Green. I remember slightly along the way going towards Ponders End but before the 30s-built Woolworths there was a store called Rymans. This as I remember was a 17th/early 18th C building with oak beemed rafters. Just before that store, an 18th/19th C building housing a fishmonger called Lindwoods where live crabs and eels and other fish could be purchased. Gearys' building itself was very old, possibly early 18th C. They used to bake the bread on the premises and I destinctly remember an old coal fired oven. To the back of us on the corner was The Exhibition pub and next to that a grocery store called Caters. Further along that side were other shops until the covered opening which was adjacent to the Golden Lion pub. This pub was probably 17th or early 18th C. The adjacent covered opening was for mail and or passenger coaches that would pull into the inn. I remember the pub had typical 17th C bottled glass windows (as seen in pictures of the Old Curiosity Shoppe). The pavement outside the pub was on two levels - one so that passengers could mount the carriage and the other at street level. Further down on that side were approximately 30 shops with the last but one being owned in the late 50s by Tesco. This was the second store in their empire. Jack Cohen the founder of Tesco could be seen occasionally in his white overalls packing out the store. Along the other side of the Green and starting from Gearys were a mixture of 19th/20th C shops – Staveleys (another grocery store), a tobacconist and others leading to Dales (a furniture store). This was interrupted by a road (can't remember name) and on the opposite corner a chemist named Wraggs. This shop was 18thC. Inside were the normal signs of a chemist - large onion-shaped bottles full of coloured liquid. Finally the Cross Keys pub which was adjacent to Salmons Brook. On the south-side of the Green was Lower Edmonton station (lower-level). Occasionally steam trains would pull into the station. In the 60/70s this was used for goods or excursions until the development of the new Edmonton Green.
I will take this opportunity to record my disgust at the town planners of Enfield who utterly dessimated the charm of the old Edmonton Green. Their lack of vision tore the heart out of Edmonton. Of course, it wouldn't be allowed today, to pull down those architectually important buildings and it was all so unnecessay! What Edmonton got in return was concrete and it has suffered ever since. Greetings to all old Edmontonians.
Edited 02-07-2002 05:19 PM
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
05:42 PM UK
Now I have discovered your site, and admiring congratulations on its contents, I shall add snippets of information that may be of interest to readers. Again about my family – I mentioned my father and uncle and also my aunty who were in a family of 2 boys and 4 girls. My aunty May was very well known throughout both Edmonton, Bush Hill Park and Enfield. She was a great pub pianist and a champion fisherwoman. But the crowning glory goes to another aunty – Vera, who never read a note of music in her life yet could play a song or tune almost immediately and indeed better than the original. I am told that she taught CHAS from Chas & Dave fame to play the piano. Again, she played in pubs and she was pretty good on the accordion as well. In fact my father's family were all musical. Dad could play a recognisable tune on practically anything that made a sound. One of my father’s other sisters, Dorothy went on to establish a dancing school in Rhodesia. Finally the musical connection doesn't end there – my cousin Alan played bass guitar with the PROCOL HARUM.
Ron Roe
06:05 PM UK
I'm delighted by the information supplied by Peter. This sort of information should also be sent to the the Local History Unit at the Town Hall, Green Lanes, N13 4XD because there will be many people interested who do not use the internet.

I recall Edmonton Green as it was, from about 1938 to 1951 when I left Edmonton to "do" my National Service. I lived about a mile north of there near Tramway Avenue and until mum died in 1940 we would walk there regularly. After that it would be with my gran. We didn't use the tram or later the trolleybus, as it wasn't classed as "very far".

I never returned to St. Alphege Road to live so the information that Peter has given does bring back those days. For instance "Lindwoods" the wet fish shop was also into ornamental fish in the far left hand corner of the shop, though to what degree I wouldn't like to say. My mum bought me a goldfish there in a bowl probably in 1939. We had agreed that it would have a gnome sitting on the side with a fishing rod. We ordered one but it never came! I used to stand in amazement watching the many eels slithering around in a box; not that we would ever buy them. It was always plaice for us. The front of the shop was open to the elements and appeared to have a number of slabs containing fish and parsley reaching forward to the pavement . I'm sure that the health inspectors of today would reel in horror at the so-called unhygenic presentation. Assistants with red, wet hands lifting pieces of fish despite the icy blasts of winter.

During the war my dad, who was a bus driver at Tottenham Garage, High Cross, would give me money if I was going "up the Green" just in case I saw a queue of people at a stall. "Join the queue and get whatever they are selling." It was usually Number 8 batteries for the torch. There never seemed to be any other type. Perhaps they were the only ones that were made. On one special occasion I came home very proud of my purchase of pineapple pieces wrapped in newspaper.

Unfortunately I cannot remember too much about the individual stalls with the exception of one that had a loud mouthed Arthur English type or "Dad's Army"'s Private Walker. He was nattily dressed with a trilby hat. What he sold I don't recall, probably anything he could get his hands on but I do recall that he always had white spittle in the
corner of his mouth.

Peter mentioned "the covered opening". Perhaps I remember this as "The Arcade". Looking at the entrance from The Green on the right hand side there was a lady with a tray hanging round her neck. It seemed that she was always there grating horseradish. I don't know too much about grating horseradish but I assume that it is rather like chopping onions because she was always in tears! Amazing the jobs people did.

Immediately after the war at the other end of "The Arcade" on the corner where it met New Road (over the bridge with "The Empire") was a shop selling "horse meat for human consumption". We were not allowed more than two pounds weight. I would queue for ages to buy for our dog. It does show how bad
things were for the civilian population after the war because I am sure that there was a sign stating that it was not for sale for animal consumption.
Peter couldn't remember the street with "Dales" on the corner. How about Balham Road?

I agree with him about the destruction of the heart of Edmonton by the planners. I appreciate that they had to find homes for so many people after the war. I expect that they didn't want to provide those home where the the planners or the council approvers lived in leafy Enfield, so in NIMBY tradition they put them somewhere else where they had jurisdiction. At least they didn't destroy The Crescent near Bounces Road. Well they hadn't on my last visit four years ago.

To finish could I point out to interested readers a picture book compiled by Graham Dalling of the Local History Unit called "Lower Edmonton in Pictures". This includes a number of pictures, amongst many, of The Green from about 1886
including one of "Mr. Ragg standing in the doorway of his chemists shop next to the Cross Keys c.1900". Also an "Aerial view of The Green in 1938" including Balham Road. Unfortunately all of the text and pictures are printed in a rather ghastly deep magenta colour on cream paper thus ensuring that details are not as fine and clear as they could have been. Whether it is still available I don't know.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
(Living in Edmonton, 1933 - 1951.)
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08:11 PM UK
I doubt that book is still in print and it doesn't ring too many bells as one I've seen myself, not that I've looked too hard. At the moment most of the books around tend to be more interested in Enfield. I guess that is understandable though as it is easier to write about things that are still there :-)

The Crescent remains in one piece and looking about as smart as I expect it to get.

The Tramway Avenue area may be less recognisable though. The bus station went years ago but there was still the building(s) on the Hertford Road by the bus stop. I can't remember what they were, perhaps no more than public toilets or something. Anyway whatever they were, they aren't them any more. More housing...
Edited 06-07-2002 08:12 PM
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
10:49 AM UK
Thanks Ron, you've sparked some long-forgotten memories of people on the Green. The 'Arthur English' type character you spoke of was probably Jimmy Saville [not Sir Jimmy]. He wore a brown trilby hat. The spittle was from his habit of taking snuff. And you are correct, he sold anything that made a profit. One notable achievement of the man was that he won the MC during the Great War. Other families that I remember were the BONES who sold fruit next to my father's stall - the SAWYERS who also sold fruit and the LEATHERBARROWS [salads] to name a few.

The covered opening that I mentioned was'nt the one you were refering to. This as I said was adjacent to the Golden Lion. In all appearance it was at one time a place for horse-drawn coaches to disembark their passengers. It was cobbled and had a canopy made of wrought iron with a glass roof. Probably added after the original building and opened at both ends linking the Green with New Road or the thoroughfare that proceeded it.

The covered opening you were refering to known as 'The Arcade' was further up going towards the Broadway and indeed linked the Green with New Road. This as I remember had an ice cream seller at the far end by the name of Marchi and they were opposite the horse meat seller. They were an Italian family who used to buy their veg from my dad. Incidentally, one of the sons of the family was Tony who played and captained Spurs for quite a few years during the 50s/60s. The old lady who sold horseradish used to live and make her products in St James Road next to my dad's yard. She used to buy from us every Christmas bags of pickling onions and put them into jars for selling. They were really dilicious - I haven't tasted better since.

Do you remember Ron a regular occurence at Tramway Avenue and as far as Ponders End when it used to rain heavily? Wooden tar blocks used to rise and people would gather them to make excellent fuel for burning on their fires.

Does anyone remember the toy shop on the corner of Town Road and New Road? It was quite impressive for many youngsters - full of toys, models and such like. I can't remember the name of the shop but I believe it began with an L. And does anyone have any recollections or information about the cinema that used to be in Fore Street called The Alcazar? This I was told by my late mother, was the first building to be hit by a bomb during WWII.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
04:37 PM UK
The Alcazar was opened in 1913 and converted to sound in 1933. It seated 1700 and the exterior was in a Moorish style of all things. I believe it was on the corner of Fore Street and Silver Street on the opposite side of the road to The Regal or have I got the wrong end of the stick? It was destroyed by a bomb in August 1940. I have also heard it said it was the first building in London to be hit by a bomb. I have also heard it said the first bombs were in Fore Street (without saying it was the Fore Street in Edmonton) and somewhere else completely. Certainly if it was August it predates the main concentrated bombing attacks on London which didn't start till September, so if it wasn't the first it was one of the first.

Now a couple of questions. Firstly I know of The Broadway as the bit of the new Green under the car park by the bus stops. Where exactly did it refer to previously? Perhaps you could anchor any reply to a fixed point I understand like the Railway Tavern.

Also I have a photo said to be of the east side of the Green around 1900 and it is supposed to looking north towards the Hertford Road. It features a bakers called Youngs and a butchers called Beetons. I just can't place exactly where it is. Before your times, of course, but anything there you can relate to from later years?

Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
10:16 AM UK
Graham thank you for the information about the Alcazar. It really must have been quite a large cinema to seat 1700 people and architectually a gem. I wonder if there are any photos of it anywhere? Ironically, the Regal cinema which was to be built close by was also one of the largest of its kind in London. As to the Alcazar's location I think that it was somewhat to the north of where you mention, perhaps a couple of hundred yards along Fore Street from the junction with Silver Street. I remember that there were a parade of shops built around the late 50's early 60's and that ground as I remember was building rubble prior to that.

The Broadway: taking the Railway Tavern [being on the north-east side] as a fixed point - stretched approximately 250 yards to the junction with New Road where it met Fore Street. As its name suggests it was quite wide [approx. 80-100yds from shop to shop. Next to the Railway Tavern in the north centre of The Broadway and after the level crossing leading to The Green was the present war memorial. To the north-west was the junction with Church Street. At its starting point on the west side [being the entrance to Lower Edmonton station] it ran to the junction of Bridge Street where the Broadway and New Road converged into Fore Street. The Broadway was a turning point for trolley buses and at the north end there was a small island with a pole supporting the electric trolley bus cables. This island usually had an evening newspaper seller by the name of Billy Franklin who used to shout out quite loudly "Star, News and Standard" and for whom I worked for as a boy delivering newspapers. There were many shops on The Broadway principally the main Post Office at the southern end and in the centre on the west side a Baptist church. This church was the congregational meeting place every fourth Sunday for the local 7th Enfield Boys Brigade Company. We used to march from our HQ in Monmouth Road to the sound of a silver band and parade on The Broadway prior to entering the church. We had over 150 boys in the company [the largest BB company in England it was said] and it later split into two companies - the 7th and 8th Enfield captained by Mr Furzeman [a local school teacher].

I would love to see the 1900 photo of The Green. Is it possible to send an email attachment?
Edited 08-07-2002 10:56 AM
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
03:32 PM UK
I'll scan a photo of the Alcazar sometime, or at least the front of it as I am sure it must have been a little bigger than the photo shows. My Mum can't remember the location either! Thinking about it there isn't a lot of room on that corner cos Angel Place (or whatever it is called) is quite old and quite close to the high road so maybe as you say that parade just beyond Pymme's Brook next to the Labour Party offices would be a candidate.

Interesting to read about The Broadway. I believe my Mum got married at the Baptist Church :-)

It is kind of frustrating that being born in the early 60s I am not quite old enough to remember the details of the area although I must have been taken there many times. Just another couple of years older and I might have better memories.

An easy question for you. My Mum mentions Empire Hill by name, I have seen it suggested that the second platform at the low level station was beyond Empire Hill and I am aware of the Empire been on a hill. However the only thing resembling a hill I am aware of is the New Road flyover and that has been called New Road since the 19th Century at least.

So was Empire Hill the name of a road or just a nickname and where was it exactly?

By the way my page http://www.lower-edmonton.co.uk/oldgreen.html has thumbnails linking to the bigger photos of the old Green including the 1900 one, as well as some somewhat speculative text! The scans are a bit rubbish at the moment but I am too impatient too descreen them, especially when I have to hold the book in position all the time!
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
09:45 AM UK
Looking forward to your scan of the pic of the Alcazar when you get round to it. In answer to your questions, firstly the platform on the lower-level, i.e. that on the south side of the station did run under the New Road bridge. I used to play on it after coming back from the Saturday morning childrens' cinema (known at the Granada) in my days. My parents and grandparents always referred to the cinema as the Empire and they would call New Road: Empire Hill. I am mystified about the age of New Road. I would suppose the hill is not a true hill in its geological meaning - I would presume that it was built as a rampart to ascend over the railway. If that line was built around 1850 then New Road probably dates from then. However, I have a suspicion that there might have been a thoroughfare at ground level pre-dating the railway line but there is no factual evidence for this.

Now, did you know Edmonton had a public greyhound track? 4-1 you don't known where it was. Any takers?
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
10:49 AM UK
Sorry Graham, I've just had a thought about New Road and my suspicions that there was a thoroughfare preceeding it at ground level. Lets suppose that Fore Street and beyond that to Hertford Road is the course of the old Roman road of Ermine Street which ran from the walls of Roman London to St Albans and eventually to York. At the site of The Green the Roman road builders would have been presented with Salmons Brook which would have been an obstacle. Now we know that at The Green there was a large pond which probably hadn't changed at all in 900 years or so and indeed it could have been even bigger until it was covered-in probably in the 19th C. Roman road builders wouldn't have forded the stream there so its seems logical that their fording place would have been where the site of New Road is (was) slightly further east and consequently New Road being built on the site of the old Ermine Street. It couldn't have been on the Church Street side as any later road would have followed the direct line of the Roman road. Unfortunately don't known any Romans to ask them.
I must get back to doing so work - I've got a brochure to design for a condoms company.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
01:28 PM UK
Right, well hopefully there are now pictures of the Alcazar as...

http://www.lower-edmonton.co.uk/scans/alcazar1913.jpg and

...and the quality is grotty but good enough to show the architecture.

I felt sure I had seen evidence of New Road existing prior to the railway but if I have I can't find it again! Given that Fore Street / Hertford Road was the main London-Hertford turnpike I can imagine The Green might have needed bypassing, but then again we aren't talking major traffic here I should imagine!

As I understand it, Tottenham High Road is on the alignment of Ermine Street and it can be picked up again beyond Lincoln Road but it is lost through Edmonton. However when you look, Fore Street does swing east a bit and it is believed Ermine Street does indeed run on the Church Street side and must be close to the line of Victoria Road. There is also some speculation that Ermine Street could be behind the rather odd alignment of Bury Street / Bury Street West which starts running westerly then swings north just past the railway bridge, west again across the A10, then south on Cambridge Terrace and back west again.

Greyhound track? By the time it got really popular it would have to have been an oval track sport. It would be kind of poetic if the Henry Barrass stadium had greyhound racing at sometime, being on Houndsfield Road as it is! Certainly it would have helped it earn its keep. Apart from that I always thought when I've been past Tatem Park there was something of a natural amphitheatre there but maybe I am imagining things and it isn't a huge place.
Edited 09-07-2002 01:30 PM
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
04:25 PM UK
I've just looked at a book that I own called "Greater London - a narrative of Its History, Its People, and Its Places Vol.1" by Edward Walford, Publ. Cassell 1898. In the cover is a map of London from around that time. It shows Edmonton Low-level and Lower Edmonton stations. It also shows prominent roads in the area - but not New Road. Maybe the map maker couldn't be bothered.

The Greyhound stadium was placed alongside Salmons Brook and the railway line from Lower Edmonton Lower Level on land that is now a housing estate. Barrowfield Close is the nearest present point to it. The old entrance to the stadium used to be in Eastbournia Avenue off of Town Road. As a boy I used to play in the derelict building (the Grandstand) around 1955-60 and from the high vantage point watch the goings-on in the Jewish cemetery on the opposite side of Salmons Brook. The building had two tiers and was about 60ft long made of reinforced concrete. The track itself was mostly overgrown but you could still make out the oval shape and see the cinders on the track. My grandfather owned a greyhound which used to be kept with the horses and ponies at his shop in Town Road and my father and uncle regularly raced the dog at the track in the 1930s. I have no idea when it went out of use.

I'm going to make some endeavours to trace Ermine Street through Edmonton without digging up most of the High Road from Tottenham with whatever archived material is available. It might take some time so don't expect to hear about this for a year or two.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
12:49 AM UK
I guess I should have spotted the big void to the east of Plevna Road on the street maps and suspected something. It is marked as "allotments" on some maps. I assume that is where you mean although I wasn't aware there was housing there now. Then again since that is not an area of Edmonton I am the slightest bit familiar with I wouldn't know!

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Ermine Street turned out to be underneath Church Lane and follow the old footpath that used to run north from there across Salmons Brook. The path is visible on old enclosure maps and doesn't seem to lead anywhere obvious to justify being there otherwise.
Ron Roe
08:44 AM UK
I'm not in the habit of downloading my emails more than twice a week consequently I guess I've fallen back considerably since I last looked. If I may I'll reply as and when! So, going back a few days:

"Lower Edmonton in Pictures" Well, if anyone wants to know the content for their particular interest then I can easily look it up and perhaps send them a copy of a pic. or two.

Tramway Avenue/Hertford Road always reminds me of the occasion in early 1946 when on a very frosty morning I walked behind a trolleybus that was leaving the depot, slipped and fell, only to find that the trolley bus was reversing on to me. And where was the conductor who was supposed to be in charge of the vehicle and seeing where the driver was reversing? I don't know. And it's difficult to remember how I managed to scramble out of the way!
The composition of the buildings on the southern corner of Tramway Avenue/Hertford Road in the 30's and 40's (and I haven't knowledge later than 1951) was firstly one of those magnificent granite? edifices put up by the Metropolitan Drinking Fountain and Cattle Trough Association (or was it the other way round?) of Victoria Street London SW1. Probably placed there to provide water for the horses pulling the trams. Then came the public toilets in a long low, 1930's building which I feel was a design similar to those at "The Cambridge" Roundabout. Next was St. Alphege Church which was then the "Tin Church" followed by a cul-de-sac "Elizabeth Ride". Outside the church was the war memorial. I was baptised in the church, not that I remember the occasion. It had iron spiked railings around it and its one single bell sounded very mournful on a Sunday morning - of course they were banned during the war. So mournful that some time after the war the vicar introduced a recording, probably of St. Mary-le-Bow, so that it sounded far too grand and out of place for such a modest church. We knew that it was only a temporary church to be replaced at some unknown time on the allotments on the Hertford Road, probably near Cuckoo Hall Lane.

There is a reference photo of the church and a copy of "St. Alphege Church 50th Anniversary Year Book for 1947 - 1948" at the Local History Unit in Southgate Town Hall.

I'd left the area in 1951, before the new church was built next to the allotments by Galliard Road. It was sad that on my last visit to the area I found, as with so many other churches nowadays, that the new church was locked and I had no time to search out the key. One thing that I was delighted with was to find that the war memorial that I remembered is sited outside the new church. Guess it's not so new now!

I was born in 1933 in St. Alphege Road in a terraced house built in 1931. It was good to see on that last visit that the house looked a lot better than it did after the war when I remember it. There used to be a timber yard facing my home and my parents were always apprehensive about its combustibility. Apparently before I remember, perhaps before I was born, there had been a fire and the front of our house was repainted following an insurance claim. It wasn't painted again until about 1950 due to the intervention of the war. On my last visit I was disappointed to find that the United Dairies depot was no longer there on the north side of the road. Clean and smart with horses that I used to feed in the 1930/40's but nevertheless replaced by some good looking homes. But also with a dreadful area which might or might not be a car breakers/repairers business. Dirty, oily, greasy and generally scruffy and, whilst the Hertford Road is not up to the tidy standard of my youth, the breakers yard was certainly letting down the area. Completely out of character for my time there. Still I suppose its called progress.

I've seen the other msgs, some addressed to me. I'll get back as soon as possible.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Ron Roe
07:40 PM UK
Thanks Peter for your thoughts.

One thing I took too many years to learn is that you should never judge a person by their looks. My deep apologies to the 'Arthur English' type, Jimmy Saville [not Sir Jimmy]. Long gone now, I am sure, but apologies nevertheless. If he did get the MC in WWI then I clearly misjudged him. I have always assumed that he was a shirker. Thanks for correcting me.
Ah, you mention LEATHERBARROWS. Well, of course, they took over Mr & Mrs. Carey's greengrocers shop on the corner of Causeyware Road and the Hertford Road after the war. I worked for Mr. & Mrs Carey at weekends for a short time in1946/7, carrying veg and fruit from the store to the shop. They were exceedingly nice people. Three things I recall. One, during the war they always had hands of artificial Fyffes bananas on display in the front window. Two, they were in the Salvation Army. Three, Mr. Carey was a phrenologist and when I was about five, with permission of my mum, he "read my bumps". I recall having my face pushed into his white apron and felt his hands running over my head. My mum said that he believed that I was going to be very intelligent and that I would have a passion for aircraft! Well, he was right on both counts. (Always the modest man!) I was intelligent but only until I got a scholarship to Hornsey County Grammar School and suddenly I found I wasn't as bright as I thought! And yes, I do have an interest in aircraft, providing that they are British and were built and flown from the early 1930's until 1948-ish.

My family didn't make use of the businesses in 'The Arcade'. I feel that it was thought that because they were permanently sited then their charges would be higher than those of the stalls outside. And there didn't appear to be the hustle and bustle of the outdoor market. We did go to Marchi's for ice cream on occasions post war. I'd forgotten that.

Oh yes I remember the regular occurence at Tramway Avenue when it used to rain heavily and the blocks came up, and guess who helped filch as many as they could when authority wasn't looking? I have to say though that they didn't burn all that well. First they were a bit big for the grate and had to be chopped down to size. Then they were so heavily covered and impregnated with tar that there would be clouds of smoke in all directions when put on the sitting room fire and it didn't smell so good. But it was certainly better than the coal ration. It was always exciting to see the road in chaos making driving difficult. Then one day they took all the blocks away and replaced them with a proper road surface. And the fun stopped.

The toy shop on the corner of Town Road and New Road was, I think, Dancy's. I used to buy my model airplane kits there from 1944. 1/72 nd scale Aryda Kits from Huddersfield. Also flying scale. I haven't looked recently but I think that I still have drawings from a kit of the time. Then I went up-market to "Penguin" and "Frog" because they included plastic components.
I agree with Peter, the Alcazar was not on the corner of Fore Street and Silver Street. It was on the western side of Fore Street and on the north side of a stream running through a huge concrete culvert under Fore Street and it appears to join up with Salmons Brook. The stream is, I suppose, Pymmes Brook. Railings ran along a concrete wall for some distance before the Alcazar which was closer to Park Avenue/Park Road than to Silver Street. I too recall that it was supposed to be the first building to be hit by a bomb in WWII. I remember being taken there to see "The Wizard of Oz" and was
terrified by it. And I recall that someone was swept away and drowned in the stream when attempting to rescue his boots. The Regal was THE cinema with 2000 seats being one of the three largest cinemas in London and I suppose purpose built in the early to mid 30's, unlike the Alcazar and Empire which were converted theatres.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08:04 PM UK
Yes I realise I was being a bit daft thinking about the Alcazar being on the corner because of course Angel Place had the Angel pub on the end of it and there isn't much room in front of them, especially with the Winter Gardens behind to take into consideration as well!

I believe the Regal was finished in 1934 and was a 3000 seater. I know it had a famous organ which I believe still exists somewhere and I seem to remember it actually had the largest stage in north London. It showed its last film in 1972 and was demolished in 1986.

Interesting to think that the UCI multiplex at Pickett's Lock has 12 screens but seats slightly less people!

I haven't walked down the Hertford Road for ages to see if Letherbarrows still keep the shop on the corner but somehow I think not. I am sure they still have a "stall" in the Market Square though.
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
09:48 AM UK
The toy shop on the corner of Town Road and Hertford Road that we've mentioned, I believe was called Lesleys. However, I need to speak to my sister and other relatives to ascertain if that is correct. But like you Ron, I do remember purchasing a petrol-driven model aircraft that was displayed in the window for 10s6d.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
10:14 AM UK
It might be coincidence, but when the shopping centre was opened there was a record shop on the South Mall (east side, second shop from the Market Square) and that was called Dancy's. I don't know if that existed somewhere before.
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
02:13 PM UK
Thank you Graham, your last message has rekindled the memories of Dancy's. Originally this music/record shop stood on New Road (Empire Hill) next to the Granada cinema.
Graham Johnson
03:55 PM UK
This morning I was passing by Edmonton Green Library and on a whim popped in to see what was in a display case in the lobby. It turned out that they sell copies of various local history books at the counter and this includes the book LOWER EDMONTON IN PICTURES that Ron mentioned.

It really is a nice little book with 50 old pictures though as Ron says they chose to use a creamy coloured paper and tint the photos a sort of reddy browny colour. Perhaps they thought they were making them sepia toned or something. It is probably as comprehensive collection of pictures as one is ever likely to find these days.

I guess the reason I had never seen the book is that it is produced by Enfield Council and there isn't an ISBN. This would make it unlikely to be available on general sale and I guess it is only available from local libraries. There is also a companion volume UPPER EDMONTON IN PICTURES which wisely sticks to white paper and black and white photos. They cost 2.75 each.
Ron Roe
08:25 PM UK
Graham that photo to the north of The Green puzzles me and I have worked long and hard to attempt to identify it, you mentioned:

> Also I have a photo said to be of the east side of the Green
> around 1900 and it is supposed to looking north towards the
> Hertford Road. It features a bakers called Youngs and a butchers
> called Beetons. I just can't place exactly where it is. Before
> your times, of course, but anything there you can relate to from
> later years?

Perhaps Peter can identify the picture. I certainly can't. Do you know that it IS off of the Green? It doesn't look like it.

I put your image into Picture Publisher, de screened it and enhanced it. There is a substantial three storey house on the left . It has two windows left and right of a central door and similar windows for two storeys above. There is a road-off following, and a further house on the main road which is behind the trees. If the photo is looking north then that road is on the west (left). The main road curves very slightly to the east (right).
I have one of those Godfrey Edition maps, Lower Edmonton 1894. There is nowhere that I can see on or north of The Green that has a road off on the left hand side and where the road is narrow and does not have tram tracks.
If it was the New Road facing north then you would be able to see through the gloom, the Town Road crossing not too far away because the road wasn't very long on the north side of the bridge. It would also have a down hill look and have the tram tracks down the middle which dated from 1881.
If the picture is from about 1900 then the scene would not have changed very much by the time I can start remembering. It hadn't been redeveloped to any great degree. Most shops remained unchanged with only a few
demolished/renovated and replaced by 1930's style premises. And as you say the trees look out of place for the Green.

My suggestion is that you study the local trade directory for a combination of Young and Beetons, not that I can identify the word Beetons in the picture nor could I confirm that Young was a baker. Consider Church Street.
And when you have found it do let us all know. PLEASE!

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Graham Johnson
10:35 PM UK
Ron, the photo comes from Glimpses Of Old Edmonton and I basically repeated the text. However I failed to repeat that it says a widened road wiped the buildings out. I thought it was somewhere to the north of the Golden Lion because that is where the arrow was on a sketch map showing locations. Maybe they were transposed though.

Try this for a theory though. In the 1935 aerial shot on my site (http://www.lower-edmonton.co.uk/scans/green1935.jpg), or better still picture 13 of Lower Edmonton In Pictures there is a three storey shop next to Dales that seems to have the same window pattern on the first and probably second floor as the mystery house (in the mystery photo I can only make out three windows on the top floor compared with five on the first which is the same as the shop). Imagine that without the blinds down and if necessary also allow for conversion of a ground floor house to a shop over the 35 years between photos.

Now supposing you took a photo back from somewhere back on the east side of The Green more towards the level crossing - say roughly opposite the bottom of the triangle. Would the end of the "triangle" between you and that house create the illusion on the photo of railings or something immediately in front of the house and a road just past it.

If so, I think that places those shops on the east side of The Green south of the photo of the Golden Lion rather than north of it. OK it has trees in it but they could have disappeared by the thirties and some of the shops may have changed a bit too.

Looking at the 1935 photo I can see about level with the end of the triangle is a shop building with dormer windows on the roof which could be the one at the back of the row. Nearer the camera is one set back a bit and there is something similar on the 1935 one too. Then there are two lighter coloured shops which look flat roofed from low level but there is a dormer on one so can't be, and these could be the next two along in the aerial photo (the ones with the rather extravagant blinds). This would locate the nearest shops (which appear to be two different designs with the same roof line) in the same place as the building in the aerial shot with the pointy bits on the roof (just behind the building with the writing on the roof). Different building but same location?

Oh yes and the trees can be chopped down and don't forget the market didn't spring up until after 1900.

I hope you can follow all that. Try it for size.
Ron Roe
08:16 AM UK
Thanks for the information on the availability of UPPER EDMONTON IN PICTURES. I will ring them up for a copy. The trouble living in Suffolk is that you can't keep abreast of what is happening so your information is most useful.

I came upon the earlier book when on a visit to the Local History Unit and purchased it from them. Although I also recall being unable to purchase "Southgate & Edmonton Past" there. I had to go upstairs to the Palmers Green Library.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.

< replied-to message removed by QT >
Ron Roe
08:16 AM UK
Well if I am wrong and Dancy's was not the model cum toy shop but a record shop then it could be that earlier it been near the eastern-southern corner of New Road; between the Empire and Midland? Bank which was on the corner with St. George's Road.

I recall the record shop had a loudspeaker facing out on to the street. I had gone in to purchase Walford Davies "Solemn Melody" on a 78 - not that there was anything else in those days. Suddenly, to check that this was what I wanted, the man behind the counter blasted New Road and across The Broadway with the sound of a church organ. Was I embarrassed.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Ron Roe
08:16 AM UK
A few further thoughts. I'm sorry but they are a hotch potch of bits in reply to a number of points raised in early messages so please bear with me as I hop from one subject to another!

I don't know about Edmonton Greyhound Stadium, I never heard of it in my time there.

Don't know of "Empire Hill" despite that being the name of the cinema (where Marie Lloyd? died on-stage in 1922). I left my gas-mask there, in the 1/9's, and my dad had to go back later in the evening to collect it and pay another 1/9d. for my stupidity dispite that I went in at half price.
Neither have I heard of Tatem Park. Where was/is that?

As far as New Road is concerned surely the name answers the question. It was the "New" Road. I would think that it was built to run over the railway track. Looking at a reprint of an 1822 OS map there isn't a road. There is a road marked that circles The Green and runs north and south away from it and this appears to be shown in an engraving of Edmonton Green in 1806. There was no railway in 1822 so it seem reasonable that there is no New Road shown. By 1877 there is the railway and the there is the road as well as the other.

I appreciate Peter's comment about the "Golden Lion having a covered way cobbled ........................and opened at both ends linking the Green with New Road or the thoroughfare that proceeded it". I have a postcard issued by Enfield Libraries of the pub and it does show a small entrance with a break in the pavement to it. So some sort of wheeled vehicle did go into it but it certainly doesn't look wide enough to take a coach. Where would the raised area be?

I think Graham, that you too have Graham Dalling's "Southgate & Edmonton Past" published in 1996? I find it very readable and recommended to anyone interested in the local history.

BTW Ermine Street didn't go to St. Albans. It is Watling Street that goes there.


[being the entrance to Lower Edmonton station] it ran to the
junction of -------------? Road where the Broadway and New Road
converged into Fore Street. The Broadway was a turning point for


Was/is it Rosebery Road? on the western side Fore Street? When I was a boy the offices of the Gas, Light & Coke Company was about there just north of that junction together with the Post Office (where someone knowingly purchased a sheet of incorrectly printed "new issue" stamps and probably made a fortune in the process). The Broadway was from the level crossing south to the junction with New Road. On the junction was a wedge shaped building, housing the London & Provincial Bank.

The eastern side of The Broadway if I remember correctly was filled with stalls and more permanent looking but
fairly temporary huts and cabins. One of them at least before WWII, did a great job with fish and chips. The smell lingers. Yet, at the same time I feel that Salmons Brook ran in a culvert along that side of the Broadway. Any help to aid my memory please?!

Certainly the 627 trolleybus turned there, much to my annoyance on a cold wet evening, when it was necessary to change to get the 649, 659 or 679 connection to Tramway Avenue. I don't remember but the trams also stood there for their return journey to London. They also went over the bridge on New Road to the north.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
10:40 AM UK
Hello again Ron,
Yes I have Southgate and Edmonton Past and it taught me most of what I know of local history! I think the title should have been the other way around though since Edmonton was the parish that included Southgate. I get the impression from it that Graham Dalling's real passion is in the people and politics whereas I am more interested in the geography and buildings.

Tatem Park? Yes a little obscure that. It is a small park on the west side of the Cambridge Road in the triangle formed with Hedge Lane just before the Cambridge Roundabout. It don't know how old it is. It is quite possible that it was some old gravel pit or something that got landscaped once it was closed.

I can see where you are coming from with the New Road though I should point out that the 1876 OS map doesn't include the railway opened in 1872 so it means the survey data can be rather old. It would make sense though.
Ron Roe
08:44 AM UK
Well Graham,

> Ron, the photo comes from Glimpses Of Old Edmonton and I

 I haven't come across that publication. Is it because I don't come to London or is it so old that it is out of print? Is it worth pursuing a copy?

> Try this for a theory though. In the 1935 aerial shot on my

I can live with your theory. You have a better copy of the 1900-2 picture than me so, even with enhancement, there is an amount lost in the fog. The railings are on the eastern side of the central Green and there is another road, almost out of sight between the western side of the central Green and the house.

I'm not sure where you are getting your thumbnails for your web site. As I have some of them as Enfield Library postcards it is possible that you have one numbered 62 "The Cross Keys Edmonton Green 1890". In this picture there are three men leaning over the footbridge which crosses Salmons Brook. In the distance there is, quite clearly, the same house without its 1930's awning. Consequently I will agree that that is the house in the photograph that you are querying. It means that the building to our right of the house has been built since both photographs were taken. Your
.............n9/scan/sigbox.jpg shows the new building clearly from ground level. You say it is 1904, so there was a very dramatic increase in the number of retail outlets in the area if someone had built the new premises on such a vast scale within only 2 - 4 years of the photograph under question. My wife has pointed out that in the 1930's aerial photograph there is a tree where the building has a roof sign which looks as if it was publicising an estate agent. That tree could certainly have been left over from an earlier time.

Matthew Eccleston's photograph indicates that it was taken c.1935. Graham Dalling suggests that it is 1938. Both pictures were taken within a few minutes of each other as can be seen from the location of parked vehicles and the people sitting in the circle in the centre of the Green. (The aircraft made more than one circuit of the area and from the shadows at about noon!)

I have shown below the baker Mr. Young and the two butchers in the Green in the 1881 census index. Mr. Young is at Number one so I expect that he has moved by the time of the photograph as his property is unlikely to still be Number one in 1900. The butchers are Mr. DORMAN and Mr. NIXON. Depending on when your reference book Glimpses Of Old Edmonton was published, it is possible that the author has looked at the 1891 or (surely not) the 1901 census. I still think that a look at the local trade directory for 1900-ish is a good suggestion as that is probably what the author looked at.
I haven't access to the 1891 census for Edmonton unless I go to London. Equally, due to the continued incompetence of the current government, the 1901 census that was proudly announced as being on-line on the 1st January last has still not put in an appearance since it crashed on the 1st January. The Edmonton portion might be available on fiche in Central Library or local history unit. It is certainly not available anywhere else to my knowledge other than the PRO at Kew.

So to the 1881 census index (I've only included the prime person not the rest of the family or other hangers-on.):

Dwelling: 1 The Green
 Census Place: Edmonton, Middlesex, England
 Source: FHL Film 1341338 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 1390 Folio 9 Page 11
George YOUNG M 62 M Lambeth, Surrey, England
 Rel: Head
 Occ: Baker (Master Employing 1 Man & 1 Boy)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Dwelling: The Green
 Census Place: Edmonton, Middlesex, England
 Source: FHL Film 1341338 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 1389 Folio 80 Page 1
 Henry DORMAN M 51 M Loughton, Essex, England
 Rel: Head
 Occ: Butcher
-------------------------------------------------------------------- Dwelling: The Green
 Census Place: Edmonton, Middlesex, England
 Source: FHL Film 1341338 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 1390 Folio 146 Page 45
George S. NIXON M 34 M Birmingham, Warwick, England
 Rel: Head
 Occ: Butcher Empl 4 Man And A Boy

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
11:00 AM UK

Glimpses of Old Edmonton was by Ernest Ryman and published by Dyke Publications in 1992 ISBN 0 9509756 4 8 and cost 2. It is out of print as far as I am aware (Amazon have an entry for it but mark it as unavailable). Edmonton Library have a selection of the local history books for sale and I am sure they would have had it if it were still available. Actually I think they are supposed to have a permanent local history display but I haven't checked.

It is a booklet of 26 old pictures with slightly more wordy captions that Lower Edmonton In Pictures. I don't know if any are unique to it but lets face it they probably all come from the council's collection anyway so the same photos are bound to come up.

Actually the cover is a picture of the Cross Keys with 3 men leaning on the bridge (to their right is a boy with a basket over his head)! However this is dated 1886 on the photo rather than 1890. I believe I have it on my site.

If you click on the thumbnails on my site you will realise from the fringing patterns that most of them have been scanned from my various books. My scanner does descreen quite nicely but it slows down the scan process and it is not easy holding a book still for the length of time it takes and not too good for the book either!

I don't have any of the original postcards. I do know a few years back a collection were bundled together in some form of binding as my brother has it. I think the aerial shot is one of them.

I take your point about the aerial photo. One of them has to be wrong!

I guess we have to be a little sceptical about some of the dates. I quote the authors of the books and/or any dates written on the pictures but of course we don't know the original source. It may have been someones best guess from years ago turning into a hard date.
Ron Roe
08:05 PM UK
Hello Graham,

Peter's comments on your "Old" Edmonton Green has woken me up to your web site again. I suppose that I haven't troubled to look at the site for about a year because the interest from the few msgs received has been of the "now, now, now" variety and, having left Edmonton some 51 years ago this isn't of great interest. Suddenly, for me, but I'm sure not for younger people, the site has gone off with a bang. It must have done because I am currently checking my email daily instead of twice weekly. It's just a pity that no-one else appears to have noticed your very hard work in expanding it. Many thanks for your

> included Southgate. I get the impression from it that Graham
> Dalling's real passion is in the people and politics whereas I
> am more interested in the geography and buildings.

I've no thoughts about Graham Dalling's interests but agree with you on geography and buildings as been more interesting. One thing that he has done is to fire you with enthusiasm which must be very satisfying for him. I recall that you have mentioned on your site that there was Matthew Eccleston's book and I immediately ordered a copy via my local bookshop in Bury St. Edmunds.

I telephoned Edmonton Green library and they have confirmed that they will send me a copy post free! Now you know where your council tax is spent! Cutting postage costs for silver surfers. I asked the Information Desk if they had any similar books. The chap mentioned "Southgate & Edmonton Past" and one other. The author spent ten years writing a book on the pubs of Enfield. Why hadn't I thought of that one!

If you know of or see more more books on Lower Edmonton local history do let everyone know.
> Tatem Park? Yes a little obscure that. It is a small park on

Well as I said, I don't know it, yet have clearly driven past it on occasions. According to my map it is also called "Hollywood Gardens" hopefully because of something local rather than some place in a foreign country.

> I can see where you are coming from with the New Road though I
> should point out that the 1876 OS map doesn't include the
> railway opened in 1872 so it means the survey data can be rather
> old.

You are right. I hadn't noticed. Should I be surprised by the omission? I fear not whenever a Government department
is involved, whether Victorian or present day.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08:45 PM UK

Yes the site has had a bit more work because I haven't been working for the last 18 months and I need something to keep my brain alive (the IT job market is more or less dead). It has turned a funny blue colour in the last few days :-)

I think I may have come across the pubs book but I don't think it covers Edmonton as is the case with many "Enfield" books. They tend not to mean the borough as a whole, unlike Matthew Eccleston's one. Eccleston's book is a biggy - inch thick A4 sized!

The Treasures Of Enfield book is nice as they enlisted a local photographic society to go round and take photos of all the interesting buildings in the borough and put some informative text in about them.

Otherwise I think on my "More Information" page I have mentioned all the books I am aware of that have significant Edmonton content. There are a couple of books about the Lee Valley about that look as though they might be quite interesting, though not of especial significance for Edmonton. They are called London's Lea Valley : Britain's Best Kept Secret and London's Lea Valley: More Secrets Revealed.

http://www.enfieldpressoc.org.uk/ mentions some of the books under the publications section.
Edited 16-07-2002 12:15 AM
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
09:35 AM UK
Graham, I echo Ron's sentiments about the hard work that you've put into this site. Well done! I enjoy the information that you, Ron, and others have contributed in advancing my knowledge of my home town both past and present.

You may have gathered from one of my messages that I work in the graphics industry, owning a small graphics design company in south London. I am a fairly competent graphic designer for print but have only a working knowledge of web design. One of my clients has expressed a desire to start a web site. Without naming the client, they are a well-known supplier of rubber things. Maybe you might be interested in assisting me to get a web site launched for them. You may telephone if you wish on 020 8291 1500.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
10:50 AM UK
It is interesting the attitudes to web sites these days. A friend of my brother's saw this site a while back and thought it was a little basic and I think that is a typical view these days. If a site doesn't have scripts left, right and centre and layers appearing all over the place then it seems to be considered somehow old hat. Indeed if you don't have Macromedia Flash animations left right and centre you seem to be a dinosaur.

My personal view is that content should always take precedence over the knobs and whistles :-) OK I haven't really looked into how to do the knobs and whistles but I think the content has to be there first.
Ron Roe
08:23 AM UK
Graham, I guess that we would all prefer the "old" site and have you pounding around in work rather than the updated site produced because of your
current situation.

Thanks for the details of Glimpses of Old Edmonton was by Ernest Ryman. Guess I have missed out on that one. What a pity. I'll looking out for it at my local book fair that takes place every six weeks.

Thanks for advising on the other books available. I would have preferred fewer treasures of Enfield if the council had allowed a few more of the treasures
of Edmonton to have remained. As far as Picketts Lock is concerned, I wasn't even aware of the place when young.

> Actually the cover is a picture of the Cross Keys with 3 men
> leaning on the bridge (to their right is a boy with a basket
> over his head)! However this is dated 1886 on the photo rather
> than 1890.

Yes, that's the one. My postcard still says 1890 but as things didn't change as fast as they do now, I'm quite happy with 1886!

You mentioned a while ago that you were unsure of the position of The Broadway. I've just noticed that I have a postcard (No.63 in the series mentioned earlier) showing The Broadway in 1909 which shows the level crossing and the signal box. This would assist you to be more accurate in its geographical positioning.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Have a look at Lavenham - http://www.lavenham.co.uk
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09:33 AM UK
Hello Ron,

I do find it interesting the differing dates that appear on things. It does make you realise that some of the dates on photos are probably someone making a guess about eighty years back and we have no idea on what basis they dated them.

I can imagine that Pickett's Lock was pretty anonymous when you were young though I guess if you were an angler you might have heard of it. I can remember that once or twice as kids we used to go on our bikes to somewhere by the river that had lots of steep muddy slopes to ride up and down and I don't have a clue where it is or remember how we got there but I should imagine we must have crossed the river by the lock.

There are whole chunks of Lower Edmonton I really don't know, like just about anywhere east of the Hertford Road or Fore Street and most places south of Church Street. I was brought up on the Galliard Estate and those places simply weren't places that I would end up as a rule.
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
11:23 AM UK
Picketts Lock. Lower Edmonton had some great places to play, particularly what is called Marsh Side on the maps, i.e. that land east of Montagu Road bordering the Lea Navigation.

My home was in Dover Road leading on to Montagu Road so it was just a short distance along to Picketts Lock Lane with the Cart Overthrown pub on its junction with Montagu Road. The waste land after the bridge that crossed the main railway line to Cambridge and Norwich was great fun. I would presume this was a result of German bombing, no doubt aiming for the railway. The result was bomb craters that had filled with water and sustained wild life, such as stickleback fish, frogs, bullrushes, etc. This waste land also contained relics of a marshalling yard and there were a few overturned railways trucks, rusted disused points and a few small derelict buildings.

The area was almost rural and there were some great places to make camp. Running parallel to the railway was a small ditch which we called the Black Dyke. It usually ran with a thick black liquid mixed with water, probably effluent from the Ever Ready factory further along going towards Angel Road station. On the other side of the wasteland was a stream, quite fast-flowing which eventually flowed into the Lea Navigation canal. Here, my friends and I raced small pieces of twigs, with the winner being the first to the small footbridge before entering the Lea.

Occasionally along Picketts Lock Lane, gypsies or travellers would remain for a few weeks until removed by the Police. These were quite frightening people – they used to say "Come near to us and we'll boil you in our stew".

At Picketts Lock there was a lock-keeper's house, probably built in the 19thC although replaced later with a modern dwelling. The lock-keeper was a friendly sort who offered us a glass of water in the hot summer months and he would let us feed clumps of grass to the barge horses. These horses used to pull the heavily-laden barges, normally full of logs and the barges sometimes were moored at the side of the canal. The area, or rather to the south of it was quite well-known for furniture making and my father just after being demobbed and before he and his brother resumed the family greengrocery business was employed as a timber porter at Picketts Lock.

As a boy I used to frequently cycle along the Lea footpath. After passing Picketts Lock, and cycling very quicky past the stink that occassionally wafted from the sewage works, you could cycle all the way up to the Enfield Small Arms factory and listen to the sound of machine-guns being tested.

And now a question. Can anyone tell me about Weir Hall and the weir itself? Was there ever a mill at that sight? My mother used to say that in her childhood she and other children would swim at the weir which had a kind of beach area.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
03:25 PM UK
Well I know Weir Hall was a mansion that was demolished in 1818 and that it is assumed to have been tudor based on illustrations of it. However Dalling places it on the north side of Silver Street around about Aylward School's site, whereas Eccleston places it on the south east of the Cambridge Roundabout near Weir Hall gardens!

Eccleston says was replaced by a Victorian mansion that lasted until the 1920s and is presumably is the same thing as Weir Hall College. The OS maps then place this squarely where he says it was.

Quite what Dalling tripped himself up with I don't know, unless the first Weir Hall was in one place and the second in another and it is Eccleston that is confused. Certainly Silver Street used to be called Wyerhall Road at the western end and there was a Wyerhall Nursery where Dalling placed it.

Don't know about a mill. Indeed I don't even know where the weir is, though I seem to remember the stretch of the brook leading up to Millfield House may have had something. I do notice a road off Bull Lane leading no where in particular is called Watermill Lane and perhaps that represents something.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08:10 PM UK
I am slightly curious about the stream you mention. As I understand it Saddlers Mill Stream feeds into Salmon's Brook where the latter goes under Montagu Road and Salmon's Brook must be lurking vaguely in the region you were talking about. However that joins Pymme's Brook just past Angel Road and then travels quite a way south before it feeds into the Lee around Tottenham Hale way. So I am wondering what this stream is.
Ron Roe
08:38 AM UK
Bravo Peter!!

> things. Maybe you might be interested in assisting me to get a
> web site launched for them. You may telephone if you wish on 020
> 8291 1500.

I hope things work out for you both.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Have a look at Lavenham - http://www.lavenham.co.uk
Ron Roe
08:38 AM UK
Graham, you say:

> It is interesting the attitudes to web sites these days. A

I certainly 'don't surf the net' nor am I a connoisseur of the subject. I get annoyed when you wait ages for something to appear and I often press 'stop'. My view is oldfashioned of course: Keep it simple.

 I am specifically interested in family and local history and associated subjects. One site that I use extensively is http://www.familysearch.org the website of the Latter Day Saints. All of their information, which is enormous, comes free and much of it prepared by volunteers, so it is difficult to criticise their display which is slow and very cumbersome yet graphics are still at a minimum.

> My personal view is that content should always take precedence
> over the knobs and whistles :-) OK I haven't really looked into
> how to do the knobs and whistles but I think the content has to
> be there first.

Well I agree with that. What could be wrong with such an attitude? Anyway, I like the way that you have produced it and what ever you produce is better than anything that I could do!

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Have a look at Lavenham - http://www.lavenham.co.uk
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
05:28 PM UK
Graham. Having just looked at an Ordinance Survey map (on screen from the OS web site) of Pymmes Brook and thinking back to my younger days, I have an image in my mind of the weir that my mother referred to in her childhood. I remember the weir was about 6-8ft deep and about 30ft wide. She used to say that she and her friends used to dive from the top of the weir into the brook. As I mentioned, she said that there was a kind of shingle (beach) area around the base of the weir where she would spend of a lot of her summer days. She was born not far away from the spot at Gilpin Grove (which is no longer on any modern map). The area I have a vague memory of is the area around the western end of Watermill Lane (which you indicated it could be) and the weir could be seen from Silver Street before it met the Great Cambridge Road. I think it is probable that there must have been a watermill on that site. When it disappeared, obviously is down to more research.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
05:49 PM UK
While I remember, I can confirm that Weir Hall was indeed called Wyer Hall originally, hence Wyerhall Road. I wonder if that is an old spelling of weir or if it is one of those coincidences that there was a weir nearby.
Ron Roe
06:16 PM UK
Hello Graham,

> photos are probably someone making a guess about eighty years
> back and we have no idea on what basis they dated them.

If they made the guesses 80 years back then they are likely to be more accurate than we can be now. The genealogist's method of determining years is to look at women's and men's clothing and compare them with known dates. A problem with Edmonton is that it was a relatively poor area and styles just didn't change to any great degree. So the alternative obviously is to look at scenery and attempt to compare that with known dates.

The problem that comes to mind, regarding the view of the eastern side of the Green looking north, can be narrowed down by using local trade directories. That would give us possible years and positioning. Perhaps Edmonton Council had their own maps of the area and you would see when the building immediately to the north of that substantial three storeyed house was built. It can be fun to do when you have sufficient references (and, unlike me, you are in the right place to see them!).

I have my personal doubts about the date of the aerial photos that we referred to on the previous occasion. We hare told by one that it is ca 1935, by another, 1938. I don't know the exact date when the trams were withdrawn along Hertford Road although I know it was 1938. Surely the tram tracks would be obvious? Could they have been removed so early in 1938 that they don't appear in a 1938 photograph yet at a time of year that looks like late spring? How about spring 1939? I don't know and I wouldn't wish to provide a false trail. Someone with the time could attempt to compare the 96-sheet posters close to the railway with those in other known-dated photos. Any takers?!!

>> I can imagine that Pickett's Lock was pretty anonymous when you
> were young though I guess if you were an angler you might have

Oh that was my dad, he was the angler and I had to tag along. We didn't go to Pickett's Lock, we would go to Connaught Water or Waltham Abbey. Or worse still the London Transport fishing site in Shepperton with its 6:00am trolleybus from Tramway Avenue, up to Manor House, on the underground to Victoria and then on the Southern Railway. It was a pastime that I didn't appreciate! I had model aircraft to build and later to fly.

>> There are whole chunks of Lower Edmonton I really don't know,
> like just about anywhere east of the Hertford Road or Fore
> Street and most places south of Church Street. I was brought up
> on the Galliard Estate and those places simply weren't places
> that I would end up as a rule.

Well, of course, I was in St. Alphege Road just down the Hertford Road from you. By the way I was taught to speak properly by my mum and consequently when my friends spoke of the 'Igh Road (the Hertford Road), I thought that they were speaking of the EYE Road and wondered why it was called that!
I can't say that I can help you with anywhere east of the Hertford Road or Fore Street. Most of my life was spent in Jubilee Park, which was still there in 2000, though not to the high standard that I remember. But I can tell you a little bit about the east of my part of the Hertford Road.
In those days before and during WWII, the far end of St. Alphege Road, (now Turin Road) was a dirt track which joined up with Causeyware Road to the right and Cuckoo Hall Lane to the left. Annoyingly my only detailed map (Godfrey Edition sheet 2 for1894-96) of the area stops to the north of Causeyware Road but it does show a footpath coming from my direction to the unlikely named "Cuckoo Hall Farm". So it is that junction that I am referring to. Turning right in the Cuckoo Hall Lane junction there was a group of cottages on the right and the rough road continued, with the remains of some larger houses, not that I recall the actual houses. I suppose we passed the southern end of Nightingale Road because it did not continue as it does now. From there, out across disused and unused ground with some allotments until reaching the railway track where there was a level crossing.

On a nice day my mum and I would go there to wave at the trains, whilst after her death I would go with my mates to watch the trains passing and take their numbers and if someone had money to throw away they would put a penny on the track for the train to flatten. That didn't happen too often!
It would be at that crossing or the next one to the south, where the Rose brothers were killed by a passing train. I think that there were three brothers. I can't give any details of it but they attended Houndsfield School like me and we were all summoned to the school hall that day during the war to hear the dreadful news from Mr. Hoy, the headmaster. I'm sure that it would have a mentioned in the "Weekly Herald" if anyone has the time to look.

By the side of the level crossing there was a deep depression which looked like a bomb crater though it looked too old to be one when I remember it. Who knows, left over from a Zepplin raid perhaps? On one occasion the air raid warning had gone and we decided to get home quickly. However there was an instant sound of an aircraft coming fast and low. We all fell into the depression just in case the pilot decided to take a pot shot at us, only to find that it was a Hurricane fighter. I was quite disappointed, as the only German aircraft I had seen at close quarters until then was the Heinkel 111that came only a few feet above our house, leaving part of its undercarriage further down the road as it crashed some short way away. Not that I was allowed to go and look. It was reported that the pilot had shot himself rather than be captured. I suppose that that was in the autumn of 1940. The crew were buried in Chingford Mount Cemetery.

Other than that area I too am unaware of the eastern side of the 'Igh Road. One of the problems was that whilst there was no restrictions on where I went to alone, at such a young age (how times have changed - for the worst), I did know that one didn't go down St. Joseph's Road or St. Mary's Road because that was such a common area! Sorry readers, if you came from there, but I had a very biased upbringing! I'm sure that it wasn't quite as bad as that. Anyway some of my school mates came from those roads and they were all right.

They say, "Never go back".

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.

Have a look at Lavenham - http://www.lavenham.co.uk
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
07:52 PM UK
Yes I see what you mean about the tram tracks, or the apparent lack of them. I can't even see any overhead wires but I am sure they are there and it is just my eyes. This reminds me of another book that is about called "Waltham Cross and Edmonton Tramways" which I haven't actually seen for myself.

Connaught Water? Is that that lake thing over Chingford or am I thinking of somewhere else. The only time I went there they used to have canoes and rowboats on it and there was so much green muck in it people were getting stuck.

I spent a lot of time in Jubilee Park too. The line of bushes from alongside the pitch and putt course from the arch to the corner of the Henry Barrass were our main stomping ground. These were known as "the bushes" and not to be confused with those along the side of the stadium to the Houndsfield Road gate which were "the big bushes", though it was the slopes that were bigger rather than the bushes themselves. The bushes were a positive adventure playground as they were banked and had a warren of entrances and with the arch and the bowling green with the hedge around it were the perfect hide and seek location. I think they might have been removed now.

I haven't been to Jubilee Park very much over the last couple of decades though did pass through it last year. It was allowed to decay for an awful long time until eventually they woke up and realised that parks are a valuable resource and started making more of an effort again though it doesn't help that theses days they just have park rangers drifting between parks instead of the resident chief park keeper and two or three others. They were real figures of authority. If one was seen coming someone would shout "Black Sunday" and we would all instantly jump out of the bushes onto the grass.

The pitch and putt is now one 9 hole course instead of the two 9 holes I spent hours on. I am not sure that the arch is still there. The lovely fish pond has gone and the area behind that used to be private for old folks and so something of a mystery area is now opened up.

I went to Galliard School and it was considered the nice school whereas Houndsfield was the rough school. Curiously Galliard had mostly Spurs supporters and Houndsfield was mostly Arsenal.
Ron Roe
08:26 PM UK
Hi Graham,

> Yes I see what you mean about the tram tracks, or the apparent
> lack of them. I can't even see any overhead wires but I am sure
> they are there and it is just my eyes. This reminds me of

Yes, I noticed that too but equally I can't see the poles required to hold them up! But shiny metal tracks should be more obvious. I recall that when the trolleybuses came off the roads they later removed the pickup wires and presumably the poles too. It was amazing, looking long distance along the road, just how much more of the scenery/buildings that became available. A few across-the-road wires along the road made such a difference to the views.

> another book that is about called "Waltham Cross and Edmonton
> Tramways" which I haven't actually seen for myself.

Fortunately I have a copy picked up in the local book fair held in the next village. An unlikely place! I'm not particularly interested in the trams but the backgrounds are very useful. 120 photographs plus local maps and plans:

The Tramway Avenue portion covers 8 pictures plus some taken inside the depot. Two of them very pretty ancient ones undated of trams outside the Tramway Office near the junction of Tramway Avenue/Hertford Road.
Together with picture No. 120 shows the same junction with a 659 and a 679 trolleybuses on a rainy day AND the drinking trough that I referred to on an earlier occasion. Not the 4-colour one that you have.

One of the pictures shows Hertford Road facing north at the entrance to Bridlington Road. There are some distant Victorian houses on the left of the 'Igh Road and whose backs would now face on to Lingfield Gardens. I recall that there were 1930's houses that sat back from the Hertford Road just past Price's the grocer and Shersby the estate agent and then followed by Victorian houses to the corner of Bedford Road but the houses in the picture look to be too close to the camera to be those. Of course there is a distant tram face on to the camera which hides the view I am looking for!

There are two good pictures showing the junction of New Road/Broadway, one of which I think you have.

All the preceding are interesting from our point of view.

Then a couple up to the boundary with Tottenham.

The remainder are, what is your terminology, "off-message"? Perhaps, perhaps not.

Anyway they cover Waltham Cross, Ponders End, Southbury Road/Enfield, areas of interest to me personally, plus Bruce Grove, Lordship Lane and Manor House, too

For old fogies like me and having spent my life in the industry, I like the advertisements on the trams:

 "Did you Maclean your teeth today Daisy?" "It's a cert, Gert"

(Elsie and Doris Walters as Gert and Daisy. OK I know, you don't remember them. They were sisters of Jack Warner of "Dock Green" fame.).

If you want any pics for your website let me know, please.

Remembering the 1930's houses and Lingfield Gardens. There was a footpath between Hertford Road and Lingfield Gardens. On the night of the 19th March 1941 there was a stick of bombs along Hertford Road and surrounds and the house to the left (south) of the footpath was destroyed. There was also a deep hole in the 'Igh Road pavement at the same point, surrounded by a rope barrier. I walked to school the next morning surveying the damage but not noticing the hole in the pavement. The first I knew of it was when one foot stepped on nothing and a heavy rope grabbed me round the throat. Was I surprised!

> Connaught Water? Is that that lake thing over Chingford or am I

The very same. I'm not sure about "that lake thing" though. It was a lake, it was a very nice lake and was very popular with hoards of people having picnics in beautiful surroundings. Probably changed since my day.

> thinking of somewhere else. The only time I went there they
> used to have canoes and rowboats on it and there was so much
> green muck in it people were getting stuck.

Yes, they had canoes and rowing boats in my day too. There wasn't green muck, though. That latter problem is the result of garden centres importing pond plants and their associated tropical weeds, during the last decade or two.

> I spent a lot of time in Jubilee Park too. The line of bushes
> from alongside the pitch and putt course from the arch to the
> corner of the Henry Barrass were our main stomping ground.

Yes, and for me too.

> warren of entrances and with the arch and the bowling green with

You mention the arch. This was "The Moon Arch" in my day because it was circular with steps up through it and a slope around it. I have a photograph of me, ca 1937, with the arch in the distance. That is another example like the tram book. The background being more important than the original subject.

> I haven't been to Jubilee Park very much over the last couple of

> they just have park rangers drifting between parks instead of
> the resident chief park keeper and two or three others. They
> were real figures of authority. If one was seen coming someone

I can remember sitting on the putting green at 8:15 pm on a summer evening with my friends discussing flying model aircraft there. The park keeper came along and said that he wanted us to go home as he wanted to lock the gates! Today I expect people would say "what gates?", "what is a park keeper?".

My entrance and exit was at the far end of Bedford Road. There was a paddling pool close by for the kiddies. My grandmother insisted that I should not go in the water because there could be broken glass in it. Within a couple of minutes of her saying it to me, sure enough someone was howling and my gran gave up her handkerchief in the repair procedure.
> there. The lovely fish pond has gone and the area behind that
> used to be private for old folks and so something of a mystery
> area is now opened up.

Thanks for that thought. I feel that the arch has gone and I had forgotten the pond and the special bit for whoever.

> I went to Galliard School and it was considered the nice school
> whereas Houndsfield was the rough school. Curiously Galliard
> had mostly Spurs supporters and Houndsfield was mostly Arsenal.

I have the feeling that I can recall that attitude. Biased of course! As I had no personal experience of Galliard School I wouldn't know but feel that my mum was not that keen on me going to Houndsfield. I probably went there in 1938 because my friends were already going. It was also much closer to home. A few years ago I looked through the photos taken at Houndsfield in the 1930's - 40's which are in Palmers Green Town Hall. I found me in 1941 looking particularly miserable and the school with broken windows but they were standard problems during the war. The pre war pupils did look very presentable.

I haven't much interest in football, but I was in the same class at Houndsfield and in the same photograph as Johnny Haines. Heard of him? He became a professional footballer with Chelsea if memory serves me correctly. He went out to South Africa to coach and after he returned I wrote to him via the Football Association. No reply.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Have a look at Lavenham - http://www.lavenham.co.uk
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09:08 PM UK
I guess the Bedford Road gate was on the footpath that led up the side of the park between it and the school and certainly in the 60s and 70s you would have had to follow the path round to Hadleigh Road gate. My main entrance was usually up the footpath and in via the gate by the tennis courts and childrens play area, especially in later years when I took a short cut across the school playing fields.

It is a long time since I walked that footpath and it certainly doesn't seem so inviting.

I had to refresh my memory about the Lingfield Gardens footpath but I should have remembered it because it was our main route to Tramway Avenue where one found a chemist, the post office and two butchers in the parade opposite. Not to forget "the cheap shop". My doctor's surgery was by the path on the Hertford Road.

Oh yes the paddling pool. You waited all year for them to fill it then didn't go anywhere near it because you didn't think it seemed too enticing after all. There was also that slight ly bowl shaped concreted over area with the railings in it between the play hut and east side. It had long since lost its original use in the 70s but I am sure you will recall what it was built for.
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
10:13 AM UK
Graham. In my quest to find some information about the projected line of Ermine Street through Edmonton, the website at the Museum of London is quite encouraging. One fact to report on a proposal that Ermine Street ran through the Bardot Estate. Quote: Site location: Bardot Close (east end of), Edmonton N9. London Archaeologist Round-up 1991(2). Evaluation, funded by Fairview New Homes plc, examined area close to conjectured line of Ermine Street. No archaelogical deposit were found in four trenches. End quote.

Also on that site is a report of archaeological remains being found on Enfield Council depot at Carterhatch Lane. Remains believed to be Ermine Street.

I've only just realised what a good source of information the Museum is and am now investigating further what and how to access their archived material.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
03:27 PM UK
That is interesting. My natural inclination would be to look nearer to the line of Victoria Road itself or even just into Pymmes Park on the other side and I would have thought they were looking just a little too far east.

However I have to defer to those who know exactly where the line is either side. The depot for example is rather large so I can't draw conclusions from that.
Ron Roe
01:15 PM UK
Good research Peter. Do let us know about access to the achives.
Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Lavenham, probably the finest medieval town in the country -
Ron Roe
06:20 PM UK
Hello Graham
The Bedford Road gate was a stand alone footpath that led into the side of the park. I don't recall a school, Galliards presumable, being THAT close by.

Yes I do remember that the paddling pool was often empty sometimes containing dried out mud. Most unsavory!
I feel that there was also a sand pit but that is lost in the years for me. I would have thought that the shallow bowl WAS the paddling pool but who knows?

Mm. You've refreshed my memory elsewhere. When I was a child we probably had the same doctor's surgery. It was sited where you mention. The doctor then was Dr. Teugan. I feel that I have spelled it correctly. Probably he was Irish. During the war, i.e., before the National Health Service, he would charge half-crown (12-1/2 pence) to come out to you. On one occasion all three of us in the family were ill and he charged 7/6d. (37-1/2 pence). Yet only one visit!
A piffling sum today but THAT was a tidy sum of money to find in those days. My dad tried, sometimes unsuccessfully!, to keep a half-crown on the mantlepiece for such an emergency.

It only now occurs to me just how much my mother's illness must have cost my dad over the years, finalising with two consultants who probably charged a guinea each per consultation. Life wasn't that easy in those days. Well, at least she actually saw the consultants, which could be more than you might get nowadays when you have a terminal illness on the NHS.
However I didn't receive "counselling" as I would hope a young child today would get for such a traumatic occurance.

The shops across the road on the eastern side of the 'Igh Road is now a bit distant in memory. On the corners of St. Alphege Road was a sweet shop run by a lady who used to sell me "Snofruits" and on the other corner Mr. Johnson had a hardware business with a mobile shop, later converting his house into a shop. Between there and the corner of Causeyware Road there was a hairdresser's shop and then on the southern corner Mr. Carey the greengrocer with his wartime artifical bananas on display. After the war, as mentioned on an earlier occasion, it became Leatherbarrows but still a greengrocer. Then Bob Bennett, the butcher and during the war, a Special Constable, seeing me and others across the 'Igh Road, at the Belisha Beacon crossing outside his shop when on our way to school. On my last visit it was still a butcher's and I think the crossing was still there. Next to him was Eddie Fry the newsagent and tobacconist. Then it all becomes vague. There was Belchers though what they did I can't recall. A "knitting" shop (haberdashers) as well. A sweet shop certainly, which might have been Belcher's or
Fortt's or perhaps Fortt's were on the other side of the road, facing Tramway Avenue next to Prices or was it Pages? the grocers who sold bread (the National Loaf) at a cost of 4-1/2d (about 2p.) during the war and before the war, my favorite, "Buzz Bar", which was a chocolate coated biscuit in silver wrapping, probably with honey in it. On the corner of Tramway Avenue there might have been a cafe and I have already indicated the conveniences and St. Alphege Church continuing up to Elizabeth Ride. No more shops that side until St. Joseph and St. Mary's Roads with more shops facing them on the western side.

Immediately after the war I feel that a couple of the shops on the eastern side were converted into one and became the premises of G. Spriggs, "Superb Radio Co." at 424 Hertford Road. According to a local advertisement of the time they were"Radio & Television Engineers" which was clearly a look into the future for Mr. Spriggs who had been a master at Houndsfield School when I was there.

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Lavenham, probably the finest medieval town in the country -
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
08:11 PM UK
Ok! Ron, you've convinced me you must be on commission from Lavenham Parish Council. It surely does look an interesting place. Sometime one Saturday or Sunday this summer I'm going to visit Lavenham.
Have a good weekend.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09:00 PM UK
I don't know the history of the area, but by the late 60s the fence around Galliard School's playing field went across the end of Bedford Road and you could actually climb the railings to get into the road. I know where the entrance you mean must have been but by that time it opened up onto a footpath rather than the park itself. This footpath started on Galliard Road and ran up to the Bedford Road gate and then went a little further to swing round onto the end of Hadleigh Road.

The paddling pool I remember was a rectangular one in the corner of the childrens playground which was fenced off. The concreted "bowl" I am thinking of was quite large (I can't remember how large but I should imagine the size of one or two netball courts) and surrounded by railings. Whether it was meant to be a bowl or had subsided over the years is another matter. It looked like it could be a roller skating area or something.

One of these days I shall have to go for a walk along the 'Igh Road to refresh my memory of the layout. I know the parade of shops between Tramway Avenue and Letherbarrows (as was and maybe still is) is still there, though their use tends to vary. One double or triple unit has been a Ripspeed, a wholesale electricians and I think had sold bathroom tiles on various occasions. I can remember a newsagents there in the dim and distant past, probably where you said.

I don't recall the shops continuing along so either they have changed or I am getting confused. I definitely remember a car tyre place on the north side of a junction and I remember a short parade of three or four shops which have been estate agents and the offices of a local newspaper at various times. But I seem to picture them carrying on from Letherbarrows and just houses after that. Yes I definitely need to have a look sometime.

On a different note, I don't know if I have asked before, but where was the King's Head pub on the old Green? I know it was at the north end and it was lost in 1974 which suggests to me the west side of the road rather than the east.
Edited 27-07-2002 09:00 PM
Peter CartwrightPerson was signed in when posted
11:40 PM UK
You are correct Graham, the King's Head was on the west side of The Green about 20-30 yards north of Gearys (the bakers) and just before Lindwoods (the fishmonger) that Ron and I remember well. Until you mentioned it, I'd completely forgotten about the pub. Its funny how some memories get lost until triggered. I remember it being quite an old building. The store next to it was Rymans. This store was a walk-in almost like an arcade. In those days it used to sell clothing but I remember it had low beamed rafters and I would guess at it being 16th-century. The slates on the roof almost reached down to head-height. Its probable that the Kings Head was just as old.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
05:40 PM UK
Well after a walk around Church Street, Bury Street West, Bury Street, the Hertford Road and back up Church Street yesterday, today I went through Jubilee Park, down to the boundary, back along the Hertford Road, up Bounces Road and down Town Road (the latter being something of a first). So now I can remember things a little better. I took a few photos to that I shall stick in reduced size on the site soon.

I took a picture of the concrete area I was mystified by in Jubilee Park but my Mum says it was a paddling pool too so I guess it was just by the time I have any useful memories they had given up on it. I just can't imagine it as a paddling pool! I mean it isn't even pale blue ;-)

I notice there is a big mound in the children's playground and there is a slide down one side. I guess these days it isn't considered safe to let the ankle biters climb the steps to the top in case they fall off.

Perhaps the most startling sight is Montagu Road. All the way from Pickett's Lock Lane beyond Town Road and as far as you can see the east side is either new housing or new houses being built. They look quite nice too. Opposite the end of Monmouth Road they have three blocks of flats curved in a semi-circle.

And yes the zebra crossing is still there outside Letherbarrows, even if it isn't Letherbarrows any more.

The Cock Tavern is called the Pitch and Pint. At least that is what the owners think it is called. Why can't they leave be?
Ron Roe
08:29 PM UK
Hi Graham,

< replied-to message removed by QT >
Ron Roe
08:29 PM UK
Hi Graham,

----- Original Message -----
From: "QT - Peter Cartwright" <qtopic+6-kNChfWVvv2Hd2bJnUSW@quicktopic.com> To: <hillis@waitrose.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 7:11 PM
Subject: Lower Edmonton

No, not in the least! I was only thinking this morning how lucky I am to live here in happiness with my wife, Anita, and our English Setter, Bosey.
We DO NOT live in one of the twee Olde Worlde cottages but in a modern 1988 detached just outside of the centre and certainly not in the 'Igh Road!
Having been in advertising since a couple of centuries ago I do know that one very important thing for Townies to remember is that without tourists the English village is dead, with no shops. So I blow the trumpet. We are fortunate in Lavenham............at the moment.

September 11 decimated us of the regular American and Japanese tourists. Whilst the non-existent foot & mouth crisis in East Anglia, was just as devastating, stopping the British, Dutch, etc. We're recovering.
AND I've passed on your website to three contacts with me at Houndsfield in the days of yore. Not noticed that they have contributed however.
Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09:07 PM UK
Quick quiz time...

That is a quiz of the I don't know the answer sort!

Near Tramway Avenue, between Elizabeth Ride and Tudor Road, is a building that is now a private members club. However the look of the building and some faded memories are screaming "its a pub" at me. So the question is, if this was a pub what was it called?

There is a snatched piccy of the building at :

You might also appreciate http://www.lower-edmonton.co.uk/images/dig...-07-29/100-0858.jpg which is the only bit between Tramway Avenue and Elizabeth Ride that was familiar to me!
Ron Roe
08:26 PM UK
Hello Graham,

Clearly you are young and fit. That was quite a walk and I envy you. Not for your health because I'm not too bad for a golden oldie but for the opportunity. I am sure that we all look forward to seeing the pictures.
> had given up on it. I just can't imagine it as a paddling pool!
> I mean it isn't even pale blue ;-)

No. just concrete grey! Quite unlike the Lido which was a shade of blue.
> considered safe to let the ankle biters climb the steps to the
> top in case they fall off.

How many of us fell off the slide in my day? I don't know of any. BTW I went down a double slide only the other day in Bury St. Edmunds up here in West Suffolk, with my grandaughter. I hadn't expected to do so but she insisted. The first time I have been down a slide for nearly 60 years! I didn't fall off and I hope she asks me again.

The new housing that you mention, are they council properties or yuppy homes? Do they have yuppies in Edmonton!

Thanks for confirming the crossing by Causeyware Road. I'll be able to cross in safety on my next visit.

The Pitch and Pint? Well I suppose that it is better than the Slug and Lettuce but did the brewery realise that the pub site is so old and the same name has been there since time started. I fear, just like the developers, that they couldn't care less.

Ron Roe.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08:56 PM UK
Well I am 39 so it is all relative :-) I am certainly not fit so the walk did me good, though I wished I had some water with me as it was a smidgen warm yesterday.

The photos are all linked from the site. They are just 640x480 medium quality ones though the originals are actually 1280x960 high quality. They are a bit snatched as one does get some rather old fashioned looks when taking pictures of what seems to be nothing in particular.

There is even a photo of the monkey puzzle trees in the front garden of the house on the corner of Galliard and Hertford Road. I guess that could be after your time but I don't know how fast they grow. I can only remember there being one as a child but it was pretty mature even in the 60s.

Oh yes the lido at Houndsfield Road. A nice pool surrounded by grotty changing rooms that badly needed updating. Now the site of a residential home.

Southbury Lido bit the dust as well a few years back along with Enfield's football stadium. You'd be amazed at the area now. The biggest multiplex cinema in London (about 15 screens) and a brand new leisure centre.

Some of the new housing is private, including some fancy use of solar energy, and the rest is housing associations or something like that. They have built new dwellings on Plevna Road and are building these new ones on Montagu Road for those being displaced by the demolition of the tower blocks and maisonettes on the Barbot Estate, which of course only date back about thirty years.

I don't know about yuppies but there are lots of Fairview and Laing flats and houses springing up everywhere there is a free space. You'd be amazed where they find room to build them. So there are certainly a lot more homeowners around. Mind you with the prices the way they are something has to give. A house opposite me is a two bedroom end of terrace on the Latymer Road estate and was sold for about 150,000 earlier this year but this fell through and it is now on the marker again for about 175,000. That means the basic middle terrace houses are going to be about 150,000. It is crazy.

If there is an influx it is of asylum seekers and other immigrant groups. Other London councils nominally charged with housing them pay for them to rent property in Edmonton and Enfield and this leaves the council's infrastructure creaking at the seams. Last year it was reported that there are 600 children of asylum seekers in Enfield schools. That is twenty classes. That is one heck of a hit to take in just a few years.

Not only is the crossing still by Causeyware Road, but there is still a butchers there too :-)
Ron Roe
07:54 PM UK
Hi Graham,

I started this the other evening and you have already sent another so some of this is behind the times - just like me!!

Your latest:

I can well appreciate being a curiosity when taking photographs of unlikely places. I've done it myself in Southwark Bankside before it was redeveloped. Now I look at tourists here in the village taking pictures of such ordinary everyday places. INCLUDING man-, sorry, person-hole covers!!

Sorry I don't remember the monkey-puzzle tree. As for house prices, well the ones you quote are quite reasonable to me. But they have gone mad, nevertheless.

How is the demolition work going on at the moment.
I hope that they have something more traditional in store for you. And, in a way, for me too.

Now back to my original msg:

I had a look at your page on Hertford Road and can add the odd comment. Such as, it has changed almost out of recognition! But how could it be otherwise with umpteen years between.

You mention the public Library in Houndsfield Road. This was a splendid modern building when I was young. The entrance was on the left of the building front. Upstairs to the library which was in light oak, bright and clean. The Reference Section to the right complete with national and local newspapers fixed with brass strips to, I think, semi upright reading boards. To the left, having passed through the gate by the librarian who checked books back in, the library proper. I was always mystified by "Eyeless in Gaza" by Aldous Huxley which sat on a high shelf near the fire exit. It was for adults so I couldn't take it out. What on earth could it be about, I wondered. I had to make do with "Orlando the Marmalade Cat".

I used the library from my very earliest years of reading, prompted by my mother. I knew then that I was going to be a librarian when I grew up. (I didn't become one!) The downstairs part of the building was used as the dining hall for Houndsfield Infant School during the war, not that I used it. I think a child's meal was 4d. (1-1/2p.?)

Your four pictures of the western side Clevedon Road to Bedford Road. No comment on nos. 1 and 2. No. 3 shows the post office which was there back in the dark ages. To its left was a hairdressers, boys haircuts were 6d. (2-1/2p). The problem was that boys tended to get overlooked when the men were around and the wait might get longer and longer especially on a Saturday. The corner shop to the right of the post office was a rather large cafe with a regular poster in the entrance advertising the latest films on at the Empire. OK, OK, the Granada if you wish to be modern. In picture No. 4 showing the larger more imposing buildings I can't recall what the corner shop was but perhaps it was an insurance office.
Certainly nothing of interest to me. The centre shop was the grocer's Price's (Page's?) and the right hand was either Shersby's the estate agent or a confectioners (Fortts?). In which case Shersby was a separate building to the right again.

On the other side of the road you have mentioned a private club that you call K.C.M. Looking at the blow-up photograph I am reminded of it. Why do I feel that its splendid maintenance is out of keeping with the properties around? It is a building that I had completely forgotten about. Clearly it is not new, looking at the chimney pots and the entrance but I did considered it fairly new in my day. It was unlikely to have been a pub but I do recall that it was a club even then in the 1940's. There was the local branch of a workingmen's club near Tramway Avenue and that could have been it. The club caretaker before the war was Mr.Wicks and his family might have lived-in so a look at the Electoral Roll for, say, 1938 might assist.

Your view of the shops between Causeyware and Tramway look interesting. Certainly the yellow end one was Carey's later Leatherbarrow's, Bob Bennett is now Richard Morris, then Eddie Fry's who was a newsagent and appears to be one still. What is also interesting are the shops between St. Alphege and Causeyware. I have already mentioned a couple including Mr. Johnson but those in the photograph were private houses in my day. I'm glad that you too consider roof lines. In fact it is always interesting to look above the shops to see what upstairs looks like. I don't feel that there was bomb damage on the southern end of the parade of shops. Might be wrong because of the 1941 bomb that I mentioned earlier. However the chimney stacks have gone, likewise the jutting rooms similar to those above Carey's. The "new?" houses behind the tyre shop on the corner of St. Alphege Road occupy the site of the United Dairies Depot.

"the bottom of Galliard" is OK with me. It wasn't an area with which I was too familiar but I do recall it as a quiet rather sleepy place with "quiet" but new shops. It looks pretty busy to me now and the buildings look much the same. I guess that you stood outside St. Alphege Church to take some of the pictures. I am in contact with someone who lived in Nightingale Road in the years I lived just up the road. I have mentioned your website to him but whether he wishes to add his thoughts I don't know.
Thanks for going to look and I'm sorry if I have bored everyone by, perhaps, labouring the points raised! I appreciate the opportunity to record my memories in this way. I hope that there will be some way of saving them for a future local historian. Perhaps there is one already?

Ron Roe
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
10:00 PM UK
I don't know about man-hole covers but I have a really nice photo of a storm drain cover. It was actually supposed to be Buckingham Palace but I was holding the camera over my head to take a photo from behind a wall and I forgot about the slight delay on my digital camera. So the photo was actually taken with the camera pointing a foot in front on my feet.

Demolition wise they have taken down two of the four tower blocks with the third due to start being dismantled in about September I think. They quote a week per floor but seem to be faster than that. I think the fourth one comes down before they take on the maisonettes.

There should be some demolition happening with the shopping centre next year as part of the revamp of it. Hopefully they are a little more sympathetic to the past now. I think they are taking down the redundant footbridge over The Green but I think they should keep it as a monument to planners folly and so in the future people can continue to wonder why it was ever built.
Robert Joyce
01:06 PM UK
Have just read the page about the Barbot Estate. I think the original road was Barbot Street, I used to live in number 54. I may be wrong as I was five when we were moved out. Those terraced houses lasted almost twice as long as the tower blocks, which are now being replaced by terraced houses.

I can just remember the Green area before it was officially vandalised and my mum still prefers it
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
03:39 PM UK
You are quite right of course. I suspect I copied an incorrect caption for a photo before I knew a little more about the subject.

Barbot Street and Chauncey Street appeared towards the end of the 19th Century. They can be seen clearly on the 1897 OS Map and the present Barbot Close and Chauncey Close are in about the same place (I wont be more definite than that!).
Ted Lefever
08:49 PM UK
So pleased to have found your site - by accident. I was trying to trace "Glimpses of Old Edmonton" (which has proved difficult to get up here in Huddersfield) and up popped "Lower Edmonton"!

Born in Ponders End, moved to Edmonton in 1935 (Shrubbery Road then Warwick Road, Bury Street finally Hazelbury Road before going to a council house in Waltham Cross in 1947.

Schools were Silver Street, Croyland Road (now closed), and Enfield Tech. College.

My Mum (now 97) went to Houndsfield Road School and my Dad to Croyland Road.

Will keep an eye on your site. Please accept my thanks for maintaining an interest in the old place!
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
12:45 AM UK
Test Message - Please excuse.
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
06:33 PM UK
Daft as it may seems, I lost the ability to administer this message board when they changed the way things work six months ago. So I shall shortly be creating a new one and anyone subscribing to e-mail updates will need to subscribe again.
Ron Roe
08:00 PM UK
Hi Graham,

I thought it was only me that got confused and unable to know what to do next! What a relief to find that someone else is like me.

Tell me however, I'm not sure of your timing for the new event. Are we waiting for you to say OK subscribe again? Or do we just go ahead and do it?

Ron Roe in Lavenham, Suffolk, England.
Lavenham, probably the finest medieval town in the country

< replied-to message removed by QT >
Graham JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08:11 PM UK
Ooops, I failed the intelligence test there. It didn't occur to me to use this old message board to say that the new one is very much in place on the site, or at http://www.quicktopic.com/17/H/wvHV7HBtyqae if you are so inclined. Nothing different about it, it is just that QuickTopic changed the way they did things without leaving back compatibility.

The site has been getting a little strange lately and now includes photos of just about every post box and bus stop in Edmonton ;-)
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