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TOPIC:

legal or illegal subs???

12
Ray Kovach
04-25-2018
10:02 AM ET (US)
Agree with Rusty. Be proactive. One of the things I have gotten better at over the years is documenting everything on the line-ups - even when they act as if they don't care. Do it. What they don't care about in the 3rd inning when they are winning by 5 can change in the 7th when the game is tied. Write down the courtesy runners and who they are running for. Tell the other bench - even when they don't seem to care. I tell the coaches how many visits they have left after every visit after the 2nd one. Be conscious of the DH rule and tell them when they lose the DH - and when telling the other team about the change I mention that they have lost their DH. Little things can save you from having to deal with BS later.
And the last thing I would mention is that most times they are simply "unreported" subs and not illegal.
11
Jeff TenbargePerson was signed in when posted
04-20-2018
09:59 AM ET (US)
Good explanation Rusty! Thank you
10
Rusty
04-20-2018
09:30 AM ET (US)
Let me clear up the warning, this would help the situation if he reenters the player again, now the player has to be ejected by rule and cost him a player that would lose games and the school $$$. And, as you know all ejections should have a trail of warnings leading up to the event, bingo. Again, being proactive saves us paperwork and them...., we are there to help the game be played by the rules, and be fun for all, being proactive will keep you from a crapper game that nobody whats to watch or be apart of..
9
Jeff TenbargePerson was signed in when posted
04-19-2018
02:02 PM ET (US)
The issue of a coach getting upset at umpires helping coaches to NOT make illegal substitutes came up last year. A coach asked me to inform the umpires to stop assisting other coaches in situations where the legality of substitutions came into play...only after reminding this Coach of a situation where we actually helped him did he back down...Coaches are always looking for advantages. ALWAYS...
The play you describe Leroy regarding the possible pulled foot is a situation where you most definitely want to wait for the Coach to go to the guy who made the call and then only after your partner asks for your help, tell your partner what you saw on the play. If the Coach comes to you first-tell him to go to the umpire who made the call-do not give the Coach any indication that you saw anything different. What you tell your partner at this point must be clear. Make sure to have your conversation with your partner away from players and Coaches. Once a decision is reached, the person who made the initial call will step away and render the verdict with the signal of safe or out. The opposing Coach will probably want a word, some umpires have stated in the past that once a verdict has been given (changing a call)after a meeting that they will not discuss it with a Coach. My opinion is that a BRIEF explanation can be given.
If an illegal sub (NOT BATTING OUT OF ORDER-different rule) is noticed---correct the mistake. I am away from my rulebook and pose this question back to a comment Rusty made about warning the Coach after restricting the illegal sub to the bench if noticed...Is this policy? What is the warning for? What is the penalty if the coach does it again? I don't think a warning to the Coach is warranted...I could be wrong
8
LeRoy H.
04-18-2018
12:22 PM ET (US)
There is another side of this issue. A savy coach might realize that there is an illegal sub..batter..etc. but they don't do anything and wait for the play. then they get to choose their option. It would be interesting to hear, from a savy coache's perspective, if they like us being proactive or would rather get to handle this themselves.

  I was thinking of the game an neumann yesterday... in about the 4th, SWFC got a hit, i came up the line for the close play and the pulled foot. Brian, in the 'C" banged him out, but i saw a pulled foot. I didn't say anything as there was no appeal. So did I do wrong since I didn't over rule the call or was i correct to wait and let the coach appeal it.

So in relating that play to an illegal sub, "is it our responsibility to strictly enforce that rule on illegal sub, or wait until the coach call's it to our attention....maybe to his benifit.

I welcome the abuse from all you experienced guys and I'm still a newby trying to learn.
7
Rusty
04-18-2018
08:26 AM ET (US)
Once you say "play" all bets are off, illegal sub, player restricted to bench, warning to coach. Before you say "play" just fix it. That's what I would do, don't have a grey book from FHSAA to be sure. Also, if any plays where made by the illegal player after "play", options should be given to the other team.
6
Jeff TenbargePerson was signed in when posted
04-17-2018
11:58 AM ET (US)
Who will take on this challenge and answer the question that Bryan asks in comment #5?
5
BWILD
04-17-2018
11:51 AM ET (US)
If it happens defensively, and you don't notice, the coach and the player are to what penalty?
4
Jeff TenbargePerson was signed in when posted
04-17-2018
11:48 AM ET (US)
If any illegal sub is noticed by an umpire, the player shall be restricted to the bench. Having said this, as you guys have stated, it is difficult to catch this on defense. Most often, this will happen when the team opts to use the P/DH-and when the P is removed from the mound, the coach will try and put the removed P in a defensive position (without letting us know.) Having seen the P on the mound the entire game and then noticing him in a defensive position after removal from the mound while his coach made the choice to use the P/DH is a choice on his part. I agree with being proactive. The argument from the other side is that if a coach does not know the rules or attempts to cheat and make an illegal substitute, why should we "bail them out" or be in charge of catching their mistake. The knowledgeable coach wants to catch the novice coach in his error and gain the advantage. Of course, this puts the stress on us to know the rules of an illegal substitute AND opens us up for the statement of "The umpire LET us make the substitution, so it must have been legal" Just ideas for conversation...all of this leads us to the conclusion that we need to keep clear and concise lineup cards.
3
Ben
04-17-2018
10:22 AM ET (US)
Everything I have ever been taught about officiating says that it’s better to be proactive in this situation. If you see this, speak up!

As for a comment that Rusty made, i have no idea how we would be expected to catch this on the defensive side. Does anyone have any suggestions on how they catch this defensively?
2
Rusty
04-17-2018
09:33 AM ET (US)
Yes, we don't let that happen, if you are paying attention, never had an illegal sub in one of my games, ever, just saying, not happening, but it is hard to catch on defense if unreported...been lucky I guess, Rusty
1
Jeff TenbargePerson was signed in when posted
04-17-2018
09:09 AM ET (US)
If a Coach comes to you with an illegal sub, do you notify the Coach that the sub is illegal? Is that part of our job to notify-advise the Coach of the mistake? Please comment...
Edited 04-17-2018 09:10 AM

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