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Welcome to the Zarthani.net H. Beam Piper mailing list and discussion forum. Initiated in October 2008 (after the demise of the original PIPER-L mailing list), this tool for shared communication among Piper fans provides an e-mail list and a discussion forum with on-line archives.
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^     All messages            2118-2133 of 2133  2102-2117 >>
Jon CrockerPerson was signed in when posted
03:38 UT
Thanks for posting the images - which book were those from?

Also - I was looking at Time and Time Again trying to figure out where the Hartley house was supposed to be. Couldn't quite make sense of the directions as given, I was able to find Brandon and Campbell easily enough.

There no longer seems to be a Union Station in Williamsport, there is a bus depot that Amtrack will deliver you to, if we assume the depot was built where the station used to be, it would be a fair walk for a paper.

Of course, Allan's friend Larry suggested a swim at the Canoe Club - if it's in the same place, it's on the other side of the Susquehanna river from their houses, and even farther to go.

If the Hartleys did live on Brandon, there are still some nice looking houses there with front porches.
jimmyjoejanglesPerson was signed in when posted
03:02 UT

And found this Fuzzy shirt on Ebay, doesn't give Piper any credit but still pretty cool.
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
23:46 UT
James "jimmyjoejangles" Romanski wrote:

> Just got a Michael Whelan art book and these were in it

Thanks for sharing these, James. I had not seen the Fuzzy sketches before.

~Four-Day Planet~ is one of my favorite Piper illustrations by Whelan.



P.S. James has been working diligenty to post--and re-post--images but the Forum site hasn't been cooperating well. Sorry 'bout that.
"I don't understand computers: Why, I don't even understand the people who understand computers!" - Juliana, Queen of the Netherlands
  Messages 2130-2128 deleted by author between 07-31-2020 04:42 PM and 07-31-2020 04:05 PM
jimmyjoejanglesPerson was signed in when posted
13:50 UT

That’s it
jimmyjoejanglesPerson was signed in when posted
00:23 UT

You probably have seen most but there you are.
  Messages 2125-2124 deleted by author 07-30-2020 07:04 PM
jimmyjoejanglesPerson was signed in when posted
23:59 UT

Try again
  Messages 2122-2121 deleted by author between 07-30-2020 07:59 PM and 07-30-2020 07:01 PM
jimmyjoejanglesPerson was signed in when posted
22:52 UT

Just got a Michael Whelan art book and these were in it don’t know if you have seen them.
Gregg LevinePerson was signed in when posted
02:10 UT
It is interesting David J, that you would quote his intro. It happens I grew up near that facility and even took the tour they gave of the facility. And "Day of the Moron" was one story I did read whilst still in that neighborhood. And I found his anecdote to be rather interesting. I also find it interesting given the location Piper chose for that facility on LI . Because the local power company nearly did build one. They were forced to decommission it rather than get the papers needed to open and run it.
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
01:45 UT
From the Archives: "McGuirk: Intro Anecdote"

Back in the early days of the old PIPER-L mailing list we started a practice of introducing ourselves at some point after we'd joined the list. It's a good practice and I hope it continues.

Below is Mike's original submission from May 2000. He notes that while some of the specifics of his life circumstances are a bit different today, the anecdote remains one of his favorite stories.

Subject: Intro Anecdote
From: Michael McGuirk
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:16:54 -0400

Hello. My name is Mike McGuirk, and I would like to introduce myself
by way of a Piper-fan anecdote.

     I am a machinist/ toolmaker by trade. Although I'm now a shop foreman
at the age of forty, my job is still very "hands on". One of the many
reasons I am a fan of H. Beam Piper is that he wrote about; and by
extension, had some regard for; those who could build and do things. Piper
didn't just write about lawyers and politicians.

     I worked for a while in field service with Westinghouse repairing
power generation steam turbines and some of their ancillary systems, with
large portable equipment. Many times we machinists were responsible for
millions of dollars of equipment and down-time income reductions. The
majority of our engineer leadership had worked their way up through the
ranks, but we had a handful of college grads who wouldn't know which end of
a wrench to pick up.

     I graduated a three year machinist program and one of my fellow
Williamson classmates and I were working at the Indian Point Nuclear
Facility. (Anyone remember "Day of the Moron"?) My friend Rich and I were
B.S.ing with a group of engineers and Rich made an observation
(unremembered) of a higher order than an ape would make. One of the elitist
engineers sneered the comment "Next thing you know the machinists will be
quoting Toynbee!"

     Well, by some happy coincidence, I had just read John Carr's intro
to"Federation" and was able to say, "Oh yeah, Toynbee. The historian whose
cyclical view of history included the three phases; the universal state,
the time of troubles, and the interregnum."

     The laughter at the engineer's expense gave me a warm and fuzzy
feeling inside, and made him much easier to deal with after that.

   Thanks Messrs. Piper and Carr.

Mike's original message is available here:



"Considering the one author about whom I am uniquely qualified to speak, I question if any reader of H. Beam Piper will long labor under the misunderstanding that he is a pious Christian, a left-wing liberal, a Gandhian pacifist, or a teetotaler." - H. Beam Piper, "Double: Bill Symposium" interview
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
00:48 UT
Mike wrote:

> I think the phrase still works without explanation. Given
> Piper's lack of love for organized labor, I think he was
> more interested in the common usage than expecting
> that readers would need know the origins*.


> I would say Piper's use of the phrase still works today,
> even if the reference to the ditty it came from isn't
> common knowledge.

Here, I think, is the nub. I agree readers may not need to understand the concept's origins but they ~do~ need to understand what it's saying "without explanation."

In my opinion--and we all know what those are like--the phrase "oomphel in the sky" no longer actually makes sense, even if contemporary readers may have heard the term "pie in the sky" from their grandparents or something.

That British sitcom Tim pointed to, about the semi-retired cop working at his wife's pie shop, is a good example. I doubt anyone watching episodes of that show today would be asking themselves, "Why does the wife seem to be taking a subtle jab at people of faith with the name of her shop?"

For most folks the "in the sky" part is just there to rhyme with "pie." They don't recognize that it's an allusion to "heaven" and a skeptical allusion at that--which is the point Gilbert is making when he "turns a phrase" and drops the "pie" (at which point the "in the sky" part no longer even rhymes).

It's nonsensical without the early mid-20th Century sensibility the reader must bring to the story to understand it.

> And as far as changing the original work; it's hard because
> the temptation to change sometimes goes too far.

Agreed, for editors, these are the differences between good editing and poor editing.


"I don't know what plans you have for a next story project, but the world-picture you've been building up in the Sword Worlds stories, or Space Viking stories, or whatever you designate the series, offers some lovely possibilities." -- John W. Campbell (to H. Beam Piper)
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