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1769
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
09-25-2017
05:28 UT
You might find that Australia might be more accommodating to refugees. When Piper was writing, Australia had a massive labor shortage and so there was a scheme to bring in migrant laborers from Europe. Migrants had their passages to Australia paid by the government if those migrants were prepared to go out into the bush and help develop infrastructure. The biggest example of this is the Snowy River Hydroelectric scheme, where Polish, Italians, Greeks, British and others worked to create Australia's biggest electric generation facility.

However having said that Australia did have the racist White Australia policy, so certainly refugees from Asia, and even defeated "Nuclear" Axis powers might have difficulty getting their refugees accepted. I agree getting refugees around the planet might be hampered due to damaged ports, but given the West is able to go to Mars and Venus not long afterward it's clear the damage cannot have been too bad.

Therefore using Piper's own writing, and taking account of the world at that time I think it's very likely Australia would have continued accepting British and European refugees. This is probably why the London Times flees to Melbourne after the Fourth World War. I contend that more Brits and Scotts settled in Perth though (this has happened anyway), but it's possible some could have gone on to Melbourne.

I see Melbourne would have had even more Greeks than it does (currently it's almost the second largest population of Greeks in the world), Adelaide would have seen more Italians and possibly some French and Germans (Germans were already here, but our wineries might have enticed the French to come here). Sydney might have had more Italians, but it is hard to say for sure because our first city can swing wildly between conservatism and progressive policies. But Brisbane is the enigma here.

Brisvegas (we like to call it that), and Queensland as a whole, has always been ultra conservative. In the 1970-80s alone Sir Joh Bielke-Petersen ran the state as his own personal fiefdom much like Huey Long did in Louisiana. Joh had a gerrymander where the country had the majority of seats and the cities had bizarre donut shaped electorates to ensure conservative voters got to decide a lot of the seats. This made Queensland very backward looking. For example stip clubs in Brisbane were not allowed to go full nude unless falling fowl of the highly paid but corrupt Vice squad. It was so laughable that Australian Playboy had to publish a "Queensland" Edition where all nudity was barred. So its hard to know what might have happened in Brisbane. When Piper was writing the attitudes in this part of Australia weren't as bad as the 80s, but they were definitely there given this state perpetrated some of the worst abuses to Aboriginal people, and had some of the least progressive laws regarding women in the workplace.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Hobart, Canberra or Darwin. Ok so I mentioned them, and sadly no one would really bother with either of these places. When Piper was writing they were rather small. If anyone went to them then they too would have been European. Canberra is especially even more the sadder location, because as a world capital it is rather tiny, especially during Piper's time. Refugees might have grown it somewhat, but in reality most would go to our larger cities.

So I'm not sure I'd agree with the premise that Australia would have been hostile to refugees. Some, such as Asians they would. But as the country was small and needed people I'm not sure they would have turned many away.

But hey I'm Aussie, so maybe I'm biased a bit.

Lol.

Regards

Terry
Edited 09-25-2017 07:00
1768
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09-24-2017
03:32 UT
~
Dale Ridder wrote:

> I guess the problem that I see with all of the
> discussion of large numbers of refugees fleeing
> the Northern Hemisphere to the South basically
> lies in the distance to be travelled

Agreed. I think Beam shows us two circumstances working against each other here. The first, as you suggest, is that there aren't going to _be_ "large numbers." (This is why there are few remnants of American political power in the Federation era.) The second is that there are something like seventy or eighty years between the Thirty Days' War, when the United States and, perhaps, other (first) Terran Federation nations "suffer grievously," and the Fourth World War which destroys civilization in the Northern Hemisphere.

In this period the (first) Terran Federation launches a colonization effort on Mars and someone--perhaps the British Commonwealth--colonizes Venus too. (Even the Asteroid Belt and the Jovian moons are colonized in this period, according to "The Future History.") If there are resources available for interplanetary colonization presumably there are also resources available for resettlement in the South and, perhaps, some recovery in the North. (Of course, any recovery in the North will be destroyed by the Fourth World War.)

There were something on the order of 200 million Americans when Beam was writing his Terro-human Future History yarns. It seems unlikely that ten percent of that number will make their way to Antarctica or other places in the South in the aftermath of the Thirty Days' War. A similar share of evacuees seems likely for other (first) Terran Federation nations and, if there is such a thing, for British--or perhaps even Anglo-French--Commonwealth refugees. It seems likely though that those who are evacuated to the South will be the most privileged.

> In an atomic war, the major ports are going to
> be clobbered,

Perhaps, though what little Beam tells us about the Thirty Days' War seems to suggest that the Eastern Axis used a "counter-force" strategy--pre-emptively attacking U.S. rocketports--rather than a "counter-value" strategy which would attack sea ports and other industrial or economic targets.

> Then you have the breakdown in delivery of
> petroleum from the producing areas to Europe,
> and the refineries being destroyed.

This also presumes an Eastern Axis counter-value strategy, which isn't what the little Beam tells us of the Thirty Days' War suggests. There will obviously be industrial and economic damage but just twenty years after the War the (first) Terran Federation launches the Martian colonization effort. Whether that means the Thirty Days' War damage was not too severe or that there was some spectacular recovery--or a bit of both--we simply don't know.

> You have a long way to travel, which means food
> and water are needed to keep the refugees alive,
> presumably on pretty small craft. You do not
> improvise coal-burning ships on a moments
> notice, so it is going to be sail.

That's remarkable imagery (though the circumstances are dire, of course). There could be a fascinating yarn in this period. . . .

> I am not sure if Piper ever really sat down and
> considered the implications on blowing up the
> Northern Hemisphere on the advancement of
> space travel and technology in general.

Beam seems to have envisioned a substantial interplanetary effort _before_ the final Atomic War--the Fourth World War (and First Interplanetary War)--destroys civilization in the Northern Hemisphere.

> Also, how welcoming are Australia and New
> Zealand going to be to large numbers of
> refugees?

I think this is key, for all of those nations which become "the new civilization in South America and South Africa and Australia." In "The Future History," Beam tells us that once "South Africa, Australia and New Zealand, Brazil, the Argentine, etc." form the _second_ Terran Federation there are "wars of colonial pacification and consolidation" which result in them imposing a "System-wide pax." These do not sound like the actions of folks who were particularly welcoming to refugees from the North.

That's what leads me to suspect the Americans and other (first) Terran Federation nation refugees end up in Antarctica and, perhaps, in Portugal's colonial territories in southern Africa. The British had some colonial territories in southern Africa too (when Beam was writing) and may also enjoy some sort of "special relationship" with Australia and New Zealand.

Tchau,

David
--
"I was born in Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do much swimming there. And I've spent most of my time since then in central Argentine, in the pampas country." - Glenn Murell (H. Beam Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
1767
Dale RidderPerson was signed in when posted
09-23-2017
23:56 UT
I guess the problem that I see with all of the discussion of large numbers of refugees fleeing the Northern Hemisphere to the South basically lies in the distance to be travelled, especially say between France and Madagascar and the Pacific Islands. In an atomic war, the major ports are going to be clobbered, and Piper would have been aware of this based on living through World War 2. He did have a very good grasp of military technology. Just re-read "Cosmic Computer" and see how many of his ideas are in use today. Then you have the breakdown in delivery of petroleum from the producing areas to Europe, and the refineries being destroyed. You have a long way to travel, which means food and water are needed to keep the refugees alive, presumably on pretty small craft. You do not improvise coal-burning ships on a moments notice, so it is going to be sail. As it is hard to say what happens to the Suez Canal, which is not really easy for sailing ships, you are looking at voyage times in the months. Considering what is going on in the Med currently with emigrants from Africa and Asia trying to make Italy, the death toll is going to be quite high. I am not sure if Piper ever really sat down and considered the implications on blowing up the Northern Hemisphere on the advancement of space travel and technology in general. Also, how welcoming are Australia and New Zealand going to be to large numbers of refugees? For a very long time, they had a "Whites Only" emigration policy, which did irritate the Japanese a lot.
1766
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09-23-2017
19:52 UT
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:

> Ah yes Paris on Baldur. I'd further a different
> theory here. I think this does suggest French
> people are part of the Federation.

It's possible but I think it may be a stretch to conclude this solely from the name of Baldur's capital. If it were "Marseilles-on-Baldur" (or any _other_ city in France), then perhaps, yes, but Paris is simply too widely renown to make a specific French connection obvious.

Beam gives us no other information to suggest that French people survived the Atomic Wars in large numbers. Thus, even if the French manage to "team up" with the British in the aftermath of the Thirty Days War--and perhaps even join them, say, in colonizing Venus--it seems they will be "minor partners" at best.

> But I think this was Piper giving us a hint that
> smaller ethnic groups might choose to go to
> the stars and set up places for themselves in
> order to start again.

Beam tells us this explicitly in "Naudsonce," though whether the French are one of these groups remains unknown.

> So though I think there is a compelling
> argument to suggest Japanese people did
> survive in Indonesia, they too could have gone
> to the stars. So a Shin Tokyo might not be on
> Terra then.

Well, we know there are Japanese who survive the Thirty Days' War from "Omnilingual." (We know there are French-Canadians too, but there don't seem to be any French people on the ~Cyrano~ expedition.)

> Then I guess there's no reason to suggest
> that all of Terra Baldur Marduk's ships must
> be named after cities on Terra.

Thus the ~City of Konkrook~ in ~Fuzzies and Other People~.

> A City of Shin Tokyo, a City of Paris on Baldur
> and even others such as City of Neu Berlin, City
> of New Manhattan and even City of Naya Calcutta
> could exist because those cities might be out
> there somewhere, but not on Terra.

There might be one or two but in general we don't seem to see this "New" dynamic in Beam's Terro-human Future History yarns. We don't see it even though he shows us civilization being destroyed several times. So, perhaps there is a Shintokyo or a Naya Kolkata somewhere in Terra's Southern Hemisphere but it seems unlikely there will be many such cities on other planets.

> A human diaspora usually sees poor people,
> refugees and those wanting to start again to
> take the chance on a new location.

Sure, but Beam tells us in "Naudsonce" that the planets these folks end up on aren't very habitable. Barring the occasional accidental discovery of some key resource--as on Nifflheim--that suggests these folks will _continue_ to remain on the margins of civilization throughout the (second) Federation era.

> Melbourne has a Greek Quarter. The town of
> Griffiths in NSW has largely been built by the
> Italians. In Adelaide the suburb of Kilkenny has
> become a little Vietnam and Haymarket in Sydney
> today has more Vietnamese than anywhere else
> in Australia.

Because there was a similar diaspora of Vietnamese to North America I might have guessed this about Australia but, from a lifetime here in North America, I had no idea there were Greek or Italian communities in Australia. This is an important point. I doubt Royal Caribbean or Moller-Maersk have named any of their ships--or Lufthansa or KLM any of their aircraft--"City of Griffiths." Similarly, it seems unlikely that Terra-Baldur-Marduk (or any other Federation era spaceline) will be naming their ships for the main city of an "irreconcilable minority-group" on some Federation planet.

Tchau,

David
--
"As for the other five, one had been an all-out hell-planet, and the rest had been the sort that get colonized by irreconcilable minority-groups who want to get away from everybody else. The Colonial Office wouldn't even consider any of them." - Mark Howell (H. Beam Piper), "Naudsonce"
~
1765
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
09-23-2017
05:31 UT
Ah yes Paris on Baldur. I'd further a different theory here. I think this does suggest French people are part of the Federation. Certainly there's not a large group of them though, otherwise Piper would have suggested it. But I think this was Piper giving us a hint that smaller ethnic groups might choose to go to the stars and set up places for themselves in order to start again. This would be in a manner consistent with the Mormons going out into the frontier beyond the then current borders of the US to get away from conditions and a government that they found restrictive.

I could see that the French, who are a proud people, might see a lack of influence in the Federation as a justification to go elsewhere and run things for themselves. In this regard then perhaps a New Paris on Earth didn't happen, because that New Paris is actually Paris on Baldur.

So if that makes sense then it might be possible to say that other colonial settlements could have followed this pattern. So though I think there is a compelling argument to suggest Japanese people did survive in Indonesia, they too could have gone to the stars. So a Shin Tokyo might not be on Terra then.

Then I guess there's no reason to suggest that all of Terra Baldur Marduk's ships must be named after cities on Terra. A City of Shin Tokyo, a City of Paris on Baldur and even others such as City of Neu Berlin, City of New Manhattan and even City of Naya Calcutta could exist because those cities might be out there somewhere, but not on Terra.

To me this does make some sense. A human diaspora usually sees poor people, refugees and those wanting to start again to take the chance on a new location. Here in Australia we had two large waves of diaspora, the Italians and Greeks after World War Two and then the Vietnamese after the Vietnam War. Technically a third one is now happening with the Sudanese, but so far we are yet to truly see what that will bring (but Australian Rules Football has seen the emergence of a Sudanese player).

But those two bigger waves here in Australia have caused some interesting ripples. Melbourne has a Greek Quarter. The town of Griffiths in NSW has largely been built by the Italians. In Adelaide the suburb of Kilkenny has become a little Vietnam and Haymarket in Sydney today has more Vietnamese than anywhere else in Australia.

This is nothing new but it is interesting. During the Gold Rushes of the 19th Century before there was a nation called Australia the Colony of Victoria had an influx of Chinese who literally founded and build the city of Ararat. It seems that migrants do build new communities wherever they go and they tend to either blend in to the new locale or rise to dominate it. So I could see that pattern happening again in the years of the Federation with the extra caveat that this might also lead to these people naming the cities they create. In some instances they might go to places and become a large group in the colony, but not name their settlement, but in other instances naming rights would fall to them.

Food for thought.

Regards

Terry
1764
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09-20-2017
15:00 UT
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:

> New Paris in Madagascar?

Well, I don't know about a "Nouveau Paris." We see "Paris-on-Baldur" at a few points in Terro-human Future History yarns but it's not clear this is an effort to make a distinction with a corresponding "Paris-on-Terra"--or a "Nouveau Paris-sur-La-Terre"--or simply an allusion to the historical "Paris that was." (What little detail we get about Baldur--including the hint of its name--suggests it's an especially beautiful planet and that concept alone may have been what led to the naming of its capital city, especially by non-French speakers.)

> I'd used South America thinking about Paula
> Quinton's statements, but certainly if France
> was going to escape somewhere then certainly
> French colonies make sense.

If there is a post-Thirty Days' War exodus from France it will likely be more substantial than those few former Nazi collaborators who fled to South America after the Second World War (to become Quinton's ancestors).

> I'd previously postulated French Polynesia for
> this, but Madagascar is certainly just as viable
> (as is Mauritius and Reunion).

These French-controlled islands were part of the Madagascar "province" under the French Union but they're a much longer haul for refugees fleeing France. I imagine the Indian Ocean and Pacific Islands are going to see many more refugees from southern and eastern Asia (and maybe western North America in the Pacific) regardless of their political circumstances at the end of the Thirty Days' War.

The interesting thing is that "Madagascar" under the French Union _also_ included the French Antarctic claim in Adelie Land. So it may be, especially if France does end up in the (first) Terran Federation, that there are French in Antarctica too. On the other hand, I suspect the more likely course is that France's Dumont d'Urville station is taken over by the Americans along with the British stations.

> So it's clear they were already there. If they
> were joined by some other Japanese refugees
> there certainly would be a large number of them
> post the atomic holocaust.

Seems like a likely possibility, regardless of Indonesia's relationship to the (first) Terran Federation.

Tchau,

David
--
"I was born in Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do much swimming there. And I've spent most of my time since then in central Argentine, in the pampas country." - Glenn Murell (H. Beam Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
1763
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
09-18-2017
04:36 UT
New Paris in Madagascar? Sure that seems ok to me, perhaps that's a bit better than South America. I'd used South America thinking about Paula Quinton's statements, but certainly if France was going to escape somewhere then certainly French colonies make sense. I'd previously postulated French Polynesia for this, but Madagascar is certainly just as viable (as is Mauritius and Reunion).

In regards to the Japanese in Sulawesi, they were there from before World War Two according to my research. Beginning in the late 1920s, Okinawan fishermen began to settle in north Sulawesi. There was a Japanese primary school at Manado, which by 1939 had 18 students. After the end of the 1942-1945 Japanese occupation of Indonesia, roughly 3,000 Imperial Japanese Army soldiers chose to remain in Indonesia and fight alongside local people against the Dutch colonists in the Indonesian National Revolution. They served with distinction and helped to soothe the bad relations caused by the occupation. Indonesia allowed them to stay and settle in the country.

Today there's about 11 thousand "Nikkei Indonesians" in the entire country (not just Sulawesi). So it's clear they were already there. If they were joined by some other Japanese refugees, both from Japan and other parts of Indonesia there certainly would be a large number of them post the atomic holocaust. Therefore migrating to the south side of the island to set up a new city, or forming a large enclave in an existing city (which may or may not grow to one day rename the city) would make sense to me.

Regards

Terry
Edited 09-18-2017 04:48
1762
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09-18-2017
03:30 UT
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:

> If the influx of refugees into a city was great
> enough there's the possibility the sheer weight
> of numbers could lead to a name change

If Indonesia is aligned with the (first) Terran Federation--which seems unlikely to me--then it might accept refugees from Japan (and perhaps also South Korea and Nationalist China) while maintaining political control. That would tend to rule out a renaming. On the other hand, if Indonesia _isn't_ aligned with the Terran Federation then perhaps the arrival of refugees from Federation member nations in eastern Asia isn't something Indonesia has much say in. A renaming in that case would be a distinct possibility.

> New Paris could exist in South America, maybe
> somewhere in Uruguay.

We have no more insight into France's fate in the Atomic Wars than we have into Indonesia's. France seems an unlikely (first) Terran Federation member but we simply don't know. That anti-American sentiment might lead to France aligning with Britain when it passes on the (first) Terran Federation but that's also something we simply don't know.

I would imagine any French Thirty Days' War refugees are more likely to end up in Madagascar than in South America. Madagascar was in a complicated process of gaining its independence from France at the time Beam was writing--even briefly being a formal part of France under the French Union early in that period--so it might make sense that Beam would see it as a likely Southern refuge for the French.

> Shin Tokyo is a little harder to place, but I'd
> place them in Sulawesi if I had to.
>
> Sulawesi has a large expatriate Japanese
> community of Okinawans and other Japanese.

Are these folks who came during the Japanese occupation or have they arrived more recently?

> This way a Shin Tokyo could arise if not in
> Ujung Pandang, then adjacent to it.

Wasn't this where Japanese naval forces were based during the occupation? Seems like a possible candidate.

Tchau,

David
--
"I was trying to show the results of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after the First World War, and the partition of the Middle East into a loose collection of Arab states, and the passing of British and other European spheres of influence following the Second." - Edward Chalmers (H. Beam Piper), "The Edge of the Knife"
~
1761
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
09-18-2017
02:55 UT
Yes I could certainly see that happening. I had resisted doing it but certainly there would be a chance for some cities becoming something else.

If the influx of refugees into a city was great enough there's the possibility the sheer weight of numbers could lead to a name change (which isn't absurd given places like Lourneco Marques and Salisbury were renamed after independence, so it's not like city names remain enshrined in concrete.)

The idea of a Shin Tokyo or even a New Paris might be something worth considering. New Paris could exist in South America, maybe somewhere in Uruguay. Shin Tokyo is a little harder to place, but I'd place them in Sulawesi if I had to.

Sulawesi has a large expatriate Japanese community of Okinawans and other Japanese. I could envision that in the nuclear horrors this community might migtrate to the south of the island. Though I'm loathe to place cities above the 7th Parallel South(due to fallout) places like Ujung Pandang or Tanete could have survived if the idea of natural mountains shielding areas from fallout remains plausible.

This way a Shin Tokyo could arise if not in Ujung Pandang, then adjacent to it. And given Japanese experience with Hiroshima and Nagasaki they might be more prepared to take the risk to stay on Sulawesi and make a go of it anyway.

Regards

Terry
1760
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09-18-2017
01:39 UT
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:

> So if there are habitable places in the archipelago
> it would be largely southern Java, Bali, West Irian
> and Timor.
>
[snip]
>
> That's why when I created the list of TBM ships
> (more for fun than anything else) I created names
> such as City of Denpasar, City of Kupang and City
> of Dili.

I wonder, depending upon the relationship of Indonesia to the (first) Terran Federation, if perhaps some place like Depasar or Kupang or Sorong ends up becomming "Shin-Tokyo." ~City of Shintokyo~ would be a pretty cool ship name.

Tchau,

David
--
"It's all pretty hush-hush, but this term Terran Federation is a tentative name for a proposed organization to take the place of the U.N. if that organization breaks up." - Major Cutler (H. Beam Piper), "The Edge of the Knife"
~
1759
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
09-17-2017
07:15 UT
Yes I can see how Piper might have come to the conclusion that equatorial regions might have fallout. However having said that some equatorial regions would fair better, especially islands.

Java for example is mountainous and it's possible to say that though the Northern side of the island might have fallout, the southern side might be protected. The same might be possible for southern Borneo and Southern Sumatra, but large parts wouldn't be. From this I'd then suggest the southern part of the Indonesian chain would fair somewhat better than places such as Sulawesi, Borneo and Sumatra. So if there are habitable places in the archipelago it would be largely southern Java, Bali, West Irian, Flores and Timor.

It's harder to say what other places in the equatorial regions might be like, but certainly the Andes would provide some protection to the South American countries, but African countries would have a harder time of it, especially the flatter savannah ones.

That's why when I created the list of TBM ships (more for fun than anything else) I created names such as City of Denpasar, City of Koepang and City of Dili. I even think Port Moresby in Papua New Guinea might fair ok too (and don't forget Australia controlled the country under UN mandate until 1975, so a City of Port Moresby might exist).

Regards

Terry
Edited 09-17-2017 16:01
1758
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
09-16-2017
18:14 UT
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:

> Certainly the concept of "Governor Generals" are
> shared between Australia and New Zealand, so
> this can be argued having come from either.

Those "Resident Ministers" and "Resident Agents" (and even a "Minister General") who often reside in "Government House" or "Company House" are artifacts of the British Commonwealth which, putting aside the final fate of Britain itself, most likely came into the (second) Federation era via Australia, New Zealand, the former Commonwealth territories in southern Africa, and perhaps even South Africa.

The interesting thing is that Beam clearly used these sorts of concepts for the (second) Terran Federation rather than corresponding American terms. He seemed to be indicating that America did not play a major role in the formal governance of the (second) Terran Federation. That suggests some things not only about the ultimate fate of America in North America but also about the role of any American redoubt in Antarctica--or of any American colonies on another planet like Mars.

> It has been pointed out that Piper only wrote
> what he knew or could easily access. This is
> why Indonesia is probably not used by Piper.

What's interesting is that Beam never mentions any nations which sit astride the equator--other than Brazil. No Kenya or Congo, no Colombia or Ecuador, no Indonesia. Most of Brazil, especially the more densely-populated regions, is well south of the equator. Perhaps Beam assumed that the equatorial nations would still suffer a fair amount of fallout damage from the destruction of the Northern Hemisphere.

> But I guess the same goes for New Zealand too
> when it comes to the Maoris.
>
> Given that the treaty of Waitangi codified native
> practices in NZ law it is interesting Piper never
> used this a launch pad for a story or had it
> influence Federation law.

New Zealand isn't Beam's only "omission" here. We don't hear anything about other Southern nations like Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay and Peru or Botswana (Bechuanaland), Madagascar, Malawi (Nyasaland), Zambia (northern Rhodesia) or Zimbabwe (southern Rhodesia).

> I guess given Piper was so active in naming
> Australian, South African and South American
> locations it interests me that I haven't been able
> to find a concrete New Zealand one.

I think Dale's point, that Beam was writing fiction he wanted to sell rather that simply trying to craft a comprehensive future history, accounts for these "shortcomings." Beam had a conception of the setting he was writing in and then used it to illustrate points required for dramatic ends in his fiction, not to outline that setting in detail.

> I guess it's not really that significant but its
> interesting to have no idea of what people from
> Auckland or Wellington are like, or what from the
> Northern hemisphere might have gone there.

I'm guessing that if you could have a conversation with Beam's discarnate self, he'd tell you that New Zealand's experience was pretty much like Australia's, only a bit less significant, just as, say, Chile's or Bolivia's experience was like Argentina's, only a bit less significant. . . .

> Like how Melbourne has the Times,

Here's one of Beam's clues about Britain's ultimate fate. This is what leads me to wonder if the British monarchy--and perhaps even the British "government in exile" in the aftermath of the Fourth World War--ends up in Melbourne. . . .

Tchau,

David
--
"Some of the old papers on Terra, like . . . the ~Melbourne Times~, which used to be the ~London Times~ when there was still a London. . . ." - Walt Boyd (H. Beam Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
1757
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
09-16-2017
16:10 UT
Yes you are right that is in his Future History notes, a good catch there that I overlooked. But perhaps I should have been more clear, I meant we really do not see much in the way of Kiwi culture appearing or influencing the Federation.

Certainly the concept of "Governor Generals" are shared between Australia and New Zealand, so this can be argued having come from either. It has been pointed out that Piper only wrote what he knew or could easily access. This is why Indonesia is probably not used by Piper. But I guess the same goes for New Zealand too when it comes to the Maoris.

Given that the treaty of Waitangi codified native practices in NZ law it is interesting Piper never used this a launch pad for a story or had it influence Federation law. I've always thought the Native Courts mentioned were more of a South African or Australian idea made manifest by Piper (though it is also likely he was using Native American Indian experience too).

I guess given Piper was so active in naming Australian, South African and South American locations it interests me that I haven't been able to find a concrete New Zealand one. I guess it's not really that significant but its interesting to have no idea of what people from Auckland or Wellington are like, or what from the Northern hemisphere might have gone there. Like how Melbourne has the Times, and Adelaide has become known for a strong Sociography department, concurrently we know practically nothing about NZ.

I know the texts are limited but I see an opportunity there to make some mention. Perhaps Auckland became the new Hollywood after the Fourth World War? Or the University of Wellington had a large portion of Oxford escape to it? Things like that I guess.

Regards

Terry
1756
David SoobyPerson was signed in when posted
09-16-2017
01:59 UT
Terry "Tanith in Oz" said:

> Then there's New Zealand. Though their population was
> smaller during Piper's time, this nation would make an
> excellent place for refugees to escape to...

But New Zealand was specifically mentioned in Piper's "The Future History". See the excerpt I cite below.

> But even wider than this is the pacific islands. Though
> mega cities would never grow on modestly small volcanic
> islands, the fact remains that many islands in this part of
> the world are isolated and would have survived both
> atomic wars. Again I find it unusual we hear nothing
> from these places too.

Just because there were likely people surviving on those islands, doesn't mean they contributed in any important way to the rise of the Federation. WW IV was described as the "First Interplanetary War". In Piper's "The Future History" notes, this is followed by:

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Second Terran Federation organized by South Africa[,]
Australia & New Zealand, Brazil, the Argentine etc. Wars of
colonial pacification and consolidation
~~~~~~~~~~~~

It seems pretty straightforward -- in fact, I thought it was obvious before the question was raised in this discussion -- that the Earth largely fell into barbarism, with only a few places such as Australia, South Africa, and Brazil retaining industrial civilization. What happens during a Dark Ages, the most important thing *causing* a "Dark Ages", is that communication between regions is cut off. Each region is left on its own, without any trade or ideas coming from far lands. Technologies, expertise in various professions and areas of study, and ideas... all get lost. The survivors are left with far less; their children, without schooling and unable to read, know the Golden Days of yore only as oral stories and legends, and to the grandchildren they are only myths. Some large regions, such as Australia and Brazil, were able to hang onto enough to retain a literate population, and an industrialized economy. Smaller regions, and isolated islands, were not.

Sure, the various Pacific and Indonesian islands probably had survivors living on them; but living at a subsistence level. At best these would be agricultural feudal States, at worst they would be living as hunter-gatherers, with the only difference between them and stone-age primitives being the relics of the dead past that they could scavenge. Talk about Cargo Cult civilizations!

These subsistence level civilizations, and their inhabitants, are not going to contribute in any important way to the formation of the Second Terran Federation. In fact, many or most of these barbarous regions are going to be the target of the "Wars of colonial pacification and consolidation" that Piper mentions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
1755
David SoobyPerson was signed in when posted
09-16-2017
01:59 UT
David Johnson said:

> "The Return" isn't a Terro-human Future History yarn and
> so the war there may have been less severe than the > Atomic Wars.

That was my assumption when reading "The Return". The devastation was obviously much less than what happened in World War IV, which Piper described as "Complete devastation of Northern Hemisphere of Terra", apparently meaning more or less complete depopulation.

Contrariwise, as I recall in "The Return", there are many regions or at least "pockets" in which people are living, but nearly all of them have fallen into barbarism. The story is about one of the very, very few which have retained an industrialized civilization contacting another.

 In particular, there only seems to have been one war and though it seems to have been _more_ severe than the Thirty Days' War it may have been _less_ severe than the Fourth World War (which Beam describes as the "First Interplanetary War" in "The Future History").

> I've always assumed that much of the destruction was
> due to fallout rather than blast damage.

Right. Piper clearly did not believe in the sort of scenario portrayed in ON THE BEACH, with the ecosystem of the entire Earth doomed from deadly clouds of radiation eventually covering the entire globe; Piper believed humans could resist radiation better than that, or at least that there would be enough survivors resistant to radiation that their offspring would be fairly immune to the effects of fallout. However, it's reasonable to assume that the Northern Hemisphere was more or less completely depopulated during or after WW IV due to radioactive fallout. Any remaining survivors would have fallen into barbarism, cut off from contact with anyone else and not having a sufficient population base to maintain an industrialized economy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
1754
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
09-14-2017
06:19 UT
Yes that's a good point. The Mars mission does point to the "allies" coming out of the 30 Day War in a much better position.

Certainly after the fourth though they wouldn't.

But I could envision an occupation of Russia and China, from which some Generals and members of each Politburo might be able to escape to Indonesia (in secret).

Some interesting story ideas there...

Regards,

Terry
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