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Welcome to the H. Beam Piper mailing list and discussion forum. Initiated in October 2008 (after the demise of the original PIPER-L mailing list), this tool for shared communication among Piper fans provides an e-mail list and a discussion forum with on-line archives.
 
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^     All messages            1654-1669 of 1669  1638-1653 >>
1669
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
08-23-2017
05:52 UT
A Paratime/Terro-Human crossover? Now there's an idea, I'm not opposed to it. Though there is scant evidence Piper ever intended to link the two together, had he lived on I think he may have. Consider Isaac Asimov, one of Piper's contemporaries. Asimov conceived his Elijah Bailey books, his Foundation stories, his "Empire" Series and his various robot tales separately. Then in the mid 1980s he decided to begin stitching all of these together with the publications of Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth. Following this both Prelude to Foundation, Forward the Foundation and even Nemesis came along to truly ratchet them all together.

My point is that in the 80s and 90s there was an interest in creating new work to aid in the sale of older work by suggesting they were all part of one large narrative. James Herbert and Kevin A. Anderson even jumped on this band wagon in 1999 when they starting telling the prequels to Dune before moving on to sequels a decade ago. I can therefore totally accept that Piper, had he lived may have done this too.

Of course we will never know. But there are themes in both of his universes. And then there is the short story "When in the Course". This story is a posthumous publication and tells a very similar tale to "Gunpowder God" (which eventually was lengthened into Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen). What is interesting about this story is that it is included in Terro-Human timeline because the planet found in the story is called Freya. So here we have a situation where the name Hostigos appears in both of Piper's universes. This may be more accidental than design, but it tells me that Piper really had few issues with changing his ideas to fit with his editors demands (John Carr believes John W. Campbell asked Piper to make it a Paratime story because of the idea of parallel evolution within the first manuscript).

So though the Paratime universe is distinctly separate from the Terro-Human time line, I do think there is a way they can be linked. It can be posited that Calvin Morrison, taken from Piper's then contemporary universe by the saucer to the Paratime universe, was removed from the same world that went on to become the Terro-Human time line. This is totally legit, and works for me. I'd point to S.M. Stirling here with his Emberverse books and his Nantucket series. Nantucket tells the story of the island of the same name being thrown back in time to the Bronze Age. The events of this series would have changed the past creating a divergent time line. In our world though the loss of the island changes the laws of physics and leads to mass culling of the world's population, leading the survivors on a journey to rebuild. What's notable here is that two time lines are created from a common focal point and even a character from the Nantucket series has a relative in the Emberverse books. Both series remain separate but thematically linked.

So this idea could work with Piper's stories, but it would have to be written well. Anyone up for the challenge?

Terry
Edited 08-23-2017 08:57
1668
Jon CrockerPerson was signed in when posted
08-23-2017
03:38 UT

> All this stuff is about us, our universe.

That's right, that's exactly what I said. All of these Paratime stories intrude upon 'our universe' before anything that I can think of that easily identifies them as part of the Federation era.


That being said, if someone could combine them in a good story, I don't think anyone would be opposed.
1667
jimmyjoejanglesPerson was signed in when posted
08-23-2017
00:56 UT
Well, its mostly from Police Operation. Tortha KArth says he's responsible for picking up Benjamin Bathhurst 139 years ago. 1809 plus 139 puts us at 1948. VErkan VAl says he is there three years after the last major war, and that they had just got atomic power, all that lines up fairly nicely with 1948. Both VAl and Karth talk about Kenneth ARnold and his UFO sightings in 1947. VAl talks about how they will have space flight in fifty years and Karth agrees. All this stuff is about us, our universe. Then lo and behold fifty years later Omnilingual happens. Pretty flimsy but there is more. Not right now though
1666
Jon CrockerPerson was signed in when posted
08-21-2017
14:59 UT
I'd love to get to the Irregular's Muster some year soon, but since my water heater died this summer and needed a replacement...

For the Paratime/Federation crossover - as you might imagine there is very little in the way of direct evidence from the stories. The Paratime ones seem to intersect with what would have been almost 'present day' here-and-now, not the Federation timeline itself. At one point the Chief and Verkan were discussing timelines, and "second-level interworld empire" gets mentioned. Now, with an infinite number of timelines, that could just have been an omission.

Since our own here-and-now never had world wars 3 or 4, (not that I'm complaining mind!) obviously we've diverged from the Federation timeline as established in cannon. Honestly, if you could shoehorn the timelines together, I don't think anyone would mind as long as it was done in a good story consistent with the rest of Piper's universe.
1665
Gregg LevinePerson was signed in when posted
08-21-2017
14:59 UT
Hello!
Yes the list is still active. Lists are known to "go silent" in between bursts of activity. In this case my guess is that the lists members of which I am also one, we're all pursuing other issues.

One sure fire method to see if your account with the list works is by sending a simple test method to it. Gauging by the (seemingly) witty responses you get back you'll find out if it works or not. Or you might get a different message from the kludge who processes them.

Now why is there a Fuzzy in Wolf's study filling and emptying the wastepaper basket?
1664
David SoobyPerson was signed in when posted
08-21-2017
13:05 UT
jimmyjoejanglesPerson said:

> While everyone is hot and bothered I'd like to ask about
> dovetailing THFH and paratime together and finding out
> what was happening to Verkan say when we were off on
> Zarathustra. THe paratime yarns span like a hundred
> years or more I believe. Obviouosly it is to bolster my
> Piperverse obsession.

Congratulations, you just touched the third rail of Piper fan discussion. :)

This is a subject upon which epic e-mail wars have been waged, with both sides using the heaviest possible artillery, sometimes resorting to nuking the other side, but neither willing to given an inch of territory.

Okay, all kidding aside, this is a frequent topic of discussion, but one on which there is sharp (altho usually not unfriendly) disagreement, and it seems quite clear that neither side is going to prevail.

Some insist that Paratime and the Piperverse (aka the Terro-Human Future History) are separate series, and that Piper never intended for them to be interpreted as occupying the same universe. I happen to be in that camp, and I'll point to Piper's own "Future History" article, in which there is absolutely no mention whatsoever of Paratime as a whole, nor any mention of any Paratime story.

But others insist that Paratime and the THFH are connected, pointing to the strong evidence in "Omnilingual" of prehistoric Terro-humans on Mars. Compare with Piper's story "Genesis", obviously part of the Paratime series, but also perhaps describing something similar to how Martians may have colonized Earth in the THFH... altho that is another point on which Piper fans very sharply disagree. However, since Piper himself did not list "Genesis" in his "Future History" article, I must admit that claim is rather dubious even though I've made it myself.

For what it's worth, John F. Carr (the author of a Piper biography and multiple pastiches of Piper's works, and the closest we have to a real authority on Piper's writings) says that Piper meant for the two series to be separate, and that any similarities are due to them having the same author. Personally, I entirely agree with his assessment.

> Also (so I might get some response) what is Wolf's site? Another forum?

That refers to the e-mail Piper discussion forum, run by Wolfgang Diehr, who posts as "Wolf" on his forum. Sadly, that forum is little used since they created a Facebook page for it... and Facebook is sadly not conducive to the sort of detailed discussions we see here. :(

...or maybe I've just fallen off the group due to a change in e-mail address, and didn't realize it?

Info at: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Piper-Worlds/info

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
1663
jimmyjoejanglesPerson was signed in when posted
08-20-2017
04:53 UT
I like it! But on a more serious note I was looking at the website and was bowled over to find out the information that I sought wasn't there. I'm not sure who is in charge of the website I think David but may be wrong. But I'll try to cobble something together and submit it for consideration.

Also I was looking at the bibliographies and noticed that Librivox is not listed. It's part of Project Gutenberg, which is in the process of putting all public domain works onto the internet. On the website you can find text files and audio versions of almost all of Piper's works. The only things that aren't on there yet are the last two Fuzzy novels, the Kalvan tales are a no show, The Mercenaries and First Cycle. Everything else is on there and without Librivox I wouldn't be here today, not that Librivox saved my life or anything but it is where I heard of Piper first.
1662
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08-20-2017
02:15 UT
~
James "jimmyjoejangles" Romanski wrote:

> and finding out what was happening to Verkan say
> when we were off on Zarathustra.

Clearly he was preparing to destroy Merlin. I mean, if mere mortals like Ghaldron Karf and Hesthor Ghrom could discover paratemporal transposition, then surely Merlin would someday. . . .

;)

"It's a lie! It's a lie! Merlin has been found!"

David
--
"Sometimes I wish Ghaldron Karf and Hesthor Ghrom had strangled in their cradles!" - Tortha Karf (H. Beam Piper), "Police Operation"
~
1661
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08-20-2017
00:50 UT
~
John "Calidore" Anderson wrote:

> If you believe we’ve reached an impasse and wish
> to move on to other topics, I am happy to do so.

By all means please continue. I have the sense that, Terry, for one, would continue to find the conversation helpful.

It's also my sense though that we have reached, not so much an "impasse" but perhaps rather a point of "diminishing returns." Let me see if I can explain what I mean.

Imagine I suggest that the "faun-like" natives of Loki are especially good at hunting the larval stage of the arboreal sky-scorpions of Loki, whose venomous tail-sting is especially toxic. One of the reasons that Anton Gerritt was successful in enslaving so many Lokians was because he was able to use Terran colonists' fear of the sky-scorpions to encourage them to want a few handy "scorpion-wyrm" slayers always on hand.

At this point it's obvious I've wandered quite far afield from what Beam left us about native fauna on Loki and the infamous Enslavement (even if perhaps what I've suggested here is internally consistent and does not specifically contradict Beam's work).

Now suppose I ask why it was that the Terran settlers in Loki's semi-polar regions were especially supportive of Gerritt's slavery efforts. It's very difficult at this point for anyone else to comment because I've actually sort of built a little "mini world" of my own and placed it on Beam's Loki. Others will find it difficult to comment effectively because we're talking about something that is mostly a product of my own imagination. It would be next to impossible for anyone to grasp that sky-scorpion stings only ever seriously injured Terran children or small animals but that the ranchers in the semi-polar regions liked to have Lokian slaves because they kept the sky-scorpions away from the 'dillo-goat herds that were their primary source of off-world income. At this point, no one but me can comment effectively because they aren't privy to the "mini-world" I'm imagining (even if it is placed on a planet Beam created and in the context of events--the Enslavement--which he described).

Does that make sense? (Not the stuff about Loki but the idea of my own "mini-world.")

> In closing, I’d like to imagine a scene in the Hereafter.
> H. Beam Piper is sitting in a chair— in the Norse
> Asgard, of course, as the Christian Heaven is much
> too peaceful for his taste— looking down on us. “Can
> you believe it?” he asks himself. “Those two are about
> to have “pistols and coffee” over where Gimli’s Navy
> base is. Didn’t know I was *that* good!” He lit his
> pipe, chuckling happily.

Love it! :)

David
--
"I was going to write like James Branch Cabell, which would have taken a lot of doing. Before that, I was going to write like Rafael Sabatini, and like Talbot Mundy, and like Rider Haggard, and even, God help us all, like Edgar Rice Burroughs. . . . Eventually I decided to write like H. Beam Piper, only a little better. I am still trying." - H. Beam Piper, "Double: Bill Symposium" interview
~
1660
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08-20-2017
00:36 UT
~
Jon Crocker wrote:

> There's a tragic backstory there
> involving my dismissal from a
> haberdashery, but this really
> isn't the forum for that.

Would love to hear that tale over your favorite milkshake--as long as it's chocolate, vanilla or strawberry--at the Waffle Shop during the Irregulars' Muster one year soon. ;)

> There is a figure in the
> background wearing something
> similar.

I'd thought that might be a more traditional military hat--worn at a particularly rakish angle--but I can see it now. If that's Sir Nevil--if there's a beard it's obscured--then I can see that what we're looking at in the illustration is the "business end" of Dunnan's foppish beret hanging over the same side of his head.

So my next question is, who is the gentlemen at the far right? It doesn't seem to be the "small and saturnine" Rovard Grauffis nor the portly, gray-haired Sesar Karvall.

> You can see Harkaman
> assessing the job-lot and
> thinking 'no problem.'

Yep. And yet Dunnan turned out to be a substantial problem. Beam was quite the storyteller, foreshadowing here that evil, especially the mad variety, was likely to be overlooked until it was too late.

For Tanith!

David
--
"Good things in the long run are often tough while they're happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), ~Space Viking~
~
1659
jimmyjoejanglesPerson was signed in when posted
08-19-2017
20:11 UT
While everyone is hot and bothered I'd like to ask about dovetailing THFH and paratime together and finding out what was happening to Verkan say when we were off on Zarathustra. THe paratime yarns span like a hundred years or more I believe. Obviouosly it is to bolster my Piperverse obsession. Also (so I might get some response) what is Wolf's site? Another forum?
1658
CalidorePerson was signed in when posted
08-19-2017
13:34 UT
David “Piperfan” Johnson said:

>This is silly though, John. I'm not interested in arguing with you
>about this. We simply have different opinions, in the face of a
>dearth of details from Beam. I'm willing to admit the possibility
>of your views being correct, even if I don't agree with them.
>I hope you can grant me the same courtesy.

Well, I haven’t been arguing for the sake of argument; I thought we were having a discussion. Certainly you are entitled to your opinion! I have said so in the past. Nor am I denying that my opinions may be wrong. In fact, I have changed a couple of them in the course of this discussion, for which I am grateful to all involved. The free flow of ideas here (and on Wolf’s site) has helped clarify my thinking on many occasions, not to mention inspired at least one paper. If you believe we’ve reached an impasse and wish to move on to other topics, I am happy to do so.

In closing, I’d like to imagine a scene in the Hereafter. H. Beam Piper is sitting in a chair—in the Norse Asgard, of course, as the Christian Heaven is much too peaceful for his taste—looking down on us. “Can you believe it?” he asks himself. “Those two are about to have “pistols and coffee” over where Gimli’s Navy base is. Didn’t know I was *that* good!” He lit his pipe, chuckling happily.

John :)
1657
Tanith in OzPerson was signed in when posted
08-19-2017
13:33 UT
I think the solution to why Gimli has a base on it is relatively simple.

Gravity.

Clearly the reason why the Federation builds naval bases on moons is the weaker gravity of such bodies. This would then make lifting the ships from any surface a lot more inexpensive as they would have less of a gravity well to contend with. Also any type of atmosphere would also create friction for returning starships, so placing a base on an airless body makes sense as this doesn't become an issue.

But Gimli is different. The Uranium there makes it a security concern, so having a base there is to protect the mining efforts. Also Gimli has no moon. I contend it has a debris ring (the golden roof) and I think from an environmental point of view (and a navigational point of view too) building the base on a orbiting body wouldn't make sense.

I do not believe Gimli orbits a gas giant because as we all know gas giants have multiple moons and based on this theory why then wouldn't the Federation use one to build their base? It seems to me to be unusual to build on Gimli (if it orbits a gas giant) as it is cheaper to use an airless body instead than a habitable world with a native species.

So no Gimli doesn't orbit a gas giant.

To me the answer is easy. Gimli isn't earth sized, its smaller - much like Mars. So if you look at it this way then it makes sense why Gimli would have a naval base. Being smaller means a lighter gravity well than Terra. Add the Uranium factor then it becomes clear. The Federation felt it was necessary to have a presence here, because Gimli became important.

So unlike other naval base sites, Gimli became an exception, but by no means the only one.

Terry
1656
Jon CrockerPerson was signed in when posted
08-19-2017
05:03 UT
A beret with an over-floppy side bit? Overlarge side bit to show dramatic movement or some other artistic interpretations? Berets gave the artist problems, he always drew the side bit too large?

Don't know the technical terms for beret parts, sorry. There's a tragic backstory there involving my dismissal from a haberdashery, but this really isn't the forum for that.

The passage from Viking reads "The man in front wore a diamond sunburst jewel on his beret, and his cloak was lined with pale blue silk."

Are there different sizes of berets? Like different knots for ties?

There is a figure in the background wearing something similar.

I like this one, kind of a 'Danish modern' style. You can see Harkaman assessing the job-lot and thinking 'no problem.'
1655
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08-19-2017
01:24 UT
~
Viking formal wear?

Something I've often wondered about is what Andray Dunnan is wearing in this image from the original ~Analog~ publication of ~Space Viking~. (This is apparently by John Schoenherr like the other illustrations but it sure doesn't _look_ like the rest of them.) What is that thing on Dunnan's head?

It looks like something rather more than a beret. It almost looks like a turban of some sort. You can see the robes on Dunnan and others in the illustration, so clearly the artist had a particular idea in mind for what the aristocracy on Gram would wear to a formal party. Unfortunately, none of the other men seem to be wearing any head coverings.

Any ideas?

David
--
"You are my chieftain. That's another mark of the barbarian." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), ~Space Viking~
~
1654
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
08-19-2017
01:18 UT

Dunnan interrupts the party
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