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Comments on COMMENT 36 TO CONCERNS ABOUT NES.htm (all items)
Document uploaded 08-20-2005 07:00 PM ET (US)

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01:06 AM ET (US)
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Regarding item 11
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Larry VictorPerson was signed in when posted
01:52 PM ET (US)
Regarding item 11
/m24 Consensus by an unprepared mob is stupidity. Given the complexity of most relevant issues, a "prepared" sub-population is a great challenge.

The "Mean Green Meme" is a highly controversial topic, and the two camps of SD don't communicate. There is healthy controversy in the Chris Cowan camp.

I am pissed. I received an email announcement from my friend George Por of The Blog of Collective Intelligence about a new book by Wilber and a proposal for an IOS (Integral Operating System) to facilitate collaboration.

I composed a longish response, cautioning about Wilber, reporting on the need for more open research into human diversity, and that an OS and tools for collaboration were definately needed. There was a link to extensive excepts from Wilber's new book - that I started to read, and will complete. Is Wilber a generalist?

But, my comment appears not to have been recorded, and I did not copy/paste it to my HD. This is a practice I must attend to when composing online. At least QuickTopic sends me all my entries - IF I SUBSCRIBE, WHICH I DIDN'T TO THIS DOC, SO I WASN'T ALERTED TO YOUR FIRST COMMENTS.

George has a spam device where you must copy some characters. It was twice applied. I hope that there is a delay in George's system as I don't look forward to re-writing my contribution.

We humans have yet to work out ways of REEEE decision-making, that is fair and realistic. There are many proposals, but I wish we could have an attitude to compare and dialog that is not defensively competitive. I expect that this approach is a wired in propensity, with its survival reasons, but we need to find was of transcending it, and many other useful traits from our hunting-gathering days.

Each decision is about a population and its environment. PRSOS filters out those who would disrupt the viability of the org for that population. The effect of any decision from within an org must consider its effect on its environment (including others not in the org).

I have seen full consensus work really well in the Rochdale Commune. I have seen it fail utterly in large political gatherins of the 1960s. Maybe, after many generations have been raised in a NU world, we will discover/invent a "best" system. For now, I am not open to give say to anyone who doesn't comprehend and agree with our vision/mission [let them go and start their own]. I am also opposed to be forced into either/or decisions -- often the best strategy is to pursue parallel tracks (that don't attempt to use destructive tactics on each other), a kind of "competition", but not necessarily leading to a win-lose outcome.

I started to explore the "uplift expedition" discussion, as the two terms are in my favor - but have not returned to them - primarily because you expressed your criticism.

NOTE: for some reason this was first put in general comments, so I copied it here and will attempt to delete it from the general comment.
Deleted by author 08-21-2005 02:30 PM
01:05 PM ET (US)
Regarding item 1
Interesting issues and approach - more later - when I have finished my efforts to catch up with you.
01:03 PM ET (US)
Regarding item 25
Good question. "see" as used here means that I have imagined a few people in a room discussing a topic and getting to a point where the review of what was said previously would be useful. I have imagined someone stating a point in a particularly clear way and the group deciding that the comment should be reduced to text for, say, inclusion in a written report of the meeting. I have imagined that the discussion might need to review what had previously been written and that review could best be accomplished having the computer "read" the text. That is more than metaphor I think.
12:45 PM ET (US)
Regarding item 11
There was a discussion in the Uplift Expedition, started by Art, about the "Mean Green Meme", where the most important thing is that everyone be heard and that decisions be by consensus. I like a different model in which everyone is encouraged to participate but I (or my partners and I) are benevolent dictators. You will note, that is the structure I outlined for NES.

Where does that put me in the Sprial Dynamics spiral?
Edited 08-21-2005 12:46 PM
Larry VictorPerson was signed in when posted
08:55 PM ET (US)
Regarding item 25
When you use "see", are you saying that you visualize these applications; or are you using "see" in metaphor?

We can replace tv reality shows with programs showing people doing things that are forward and positive -- demonstrating to others what is possible. I do believe that these can be made interesting.
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