> woe...woe is me...this referred-to-message-removing is *really*
> annoying. I'm losing track of threads. Also, not being able to
> change the subject line...lost, adrift in a sea of mails.

Dude... you need threadsml!

~ jon

Just so you know - I'm gonna be talking a lot over the next week or so about something called the ASN (Augmented Soical Networks.) I'll be bringing up ThreadsML as much as I can - taking ALL of your names and efforts in vein.

JUST KIDDING!

No I just wanted you all to know that there are LOTS of folks who want and who can profit and prosper from something like ThreadsML - and we're all "rooting" for yah!

:-)

So the ASN is a dream-like scenario that a few folks are theorizing. And so I'm part of a group that is challenging the premise of just sitting around talking. We're saying: "well what IF you had the resources, brains, money and support?"

So ThreadsML comes in play here. Nobody doesn't want it - let's put it like that.

Hello there, I am new to the discussion but very much interested in ThreadsML (am drinking the kool aid as we speak).

I learned about this at the OSCOM conference from Jon Udell, and think that it is a significant, and much needed piece of work.

Though not a programmer, I have spent the better part of 10 yrs in some way managing online discussion forums, and am willing to help in whatever way I possibly can. In the meantime, I wanted to say hello from the Nashville area...and will continue reading.

Mark

ps The online outliner is really boss

Welcome, Mark! With 10 years of experience, you can probably come up with some good use cases, or just validate the ones we have. Feel free to leave commentary or add your own ideas at the wiki in the use case area: http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?UseCases

Oh, and hello, Jon. So you *are* reading :-) Glad to have your eyes and mind on this.


Mark wrote:
> Hello there, I am new to the discussion but very much interested
> in ThreadsML (am drinking the kool aid as we speak)....

> Oh, and hello, Jon. So you *are* reading :-) Glad to have your eyes
> and mind on this.

I'm getting the posts via emails but I was out of the loop for a while, several irons in the fire. I've just printed the 77-page ANS paper & want to read it, then go over the stuff in the threadsml wiki and look for the resonance that Marc's seeing.

Thanks for the welcome Steve. I've posted in the wiki (will parade my ignorance and say that this is my virgin wiki post...hope it came out ok).

In case it didn't, you could have a look at my thoughts on including a ThreadtoRSS element at http://stopwar.us/threadsml.html


Mark

Edited by author 06-02-2003 11:10 PM
I'd like to try implementing the strawman proposal Danny proposed at http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsVocabulary, but I haven't heard back about the usage of foaf for the dc:contributor element.

My concern is that the foaf element will break existing RSS readers, which at best will ignore tags that they doen't recognize, and therefore simply not find anything in the dc:contributor element, since all of foaf's data seems to be represented as XML attributes rather than text elements (or is there an alternative?). If that's the case, I must ask for an alternative or eliminate the foaf element.

Mark Woodward, I read your thoughts at http://stopwar.us/threadsml.html. You could probably do much of what you want if your forum site simply supported RSS, but ThreadsML would obviously be applicable for representing the threaded discussions.

Actually, thinking about Danny's proposal a little more, I'm confusing the dc:contributor element with the dc:creator element in the individual post. The dc:contributor item should be considered optional -- shouldn't we specify which elements are required and which are optional? And it won't break RSS readers.

> I'd like to try implementing the strawman proposal Danny
> proposed at
> http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsVocabulary,

cool!

> but I haven't heard back about the usage of foaf for the
> dc:contributor element.

Looking into it, I'll get back to you, but for now at least use your best guess.

> My concern is that the foaf element will break existing RSS
> readers, which at best will ignore tags that it doesn't
> recognize, and therefore simply not find anything in the
> dc:contributor element, since all of foaf's data seems to be
> represented as XML attributes rather than text elements (or is
> there an alternative?). If that's the case, I must ask for an
> alternative or eliminate the foaf element.

Attributes? I've just looked at my FOAF and it starts like this :
<foaf:Person>
<foaf:name>Daniel Ayers</foaf:name>
<foaf:title>Mr</foaf:title>
<foaf:firstName>Danny</foaf:firstName>
...

So the values all seem to be literal text (if anything, I'd have though the nesting would have caused problems).

I think we should consider it a bonus if current RSS readers can view the data, rather than a requirement. I reckon that if the data is available in a systematic format, then the tool builders will adjust accordingly. We certainly need a way of identifying the people, and FOAF looks the best choice at the moment.

Cheers,
Danny.

> Actually, thinking about Danny's proposal a little more, I'm
> confusing the dc:contributor element with the dc:creator element
> in the individual post. The dc:contributor item should be
> considered optional -- shouldn't we specify which elements are
> required and which are optional? And it won't break RSS readers.

That sounds very reasonable. Feel free to edit the Wiki.
Personally I'd probably go for making the minimum of the elements mandatory, with the idea that a little data is better than none at all.

Cheers,
Danny.

Danny wrote:
> Attributes? I've just looked at my FOAF and it starts like this
> :
> <foaf:Person>
> <foaf:name>Daniel Ayers</foaf:name>
> <foaf:title>Mr</foaf:title>
> <foaf:firstName>Danny</foaf:firstName>
> ...
>
> So the values all seem to be literal text (if anything, I'd have
> though the nesting would have caused problems).
>
Ah. Should we change the wiki to match that then? Or am I mis-reading it?
As I realized, since dc:contributor is in the <items> element, RSS readers are not reading dc:contributor now, so it's really not an issue. But yes, we can hope they'll accomadate the FOAF if it's there. I'd be more confident if FOAF wasn't just "the best choice at the moment". So I'd want to make FOAF optional for dc:contributor, with plain text an alternate. Thoughts?

Whoops!
You're quite right.

For some, e.g.

  <foaf:Person foaf:name="Lena">

I think this would be valid as an alternative, but like you suggest for the readers benefit it'll be better as

  <foaf:Person>
  <foaf:name>Lena</foaf:name>
...
  </foaf:Person>

This one :

   <foaf:email rdf:resource="lena@twounlimited.com" />

I believe is simply *wrong* - the resource should be a URI, so again the literal format above is better (not wrong!).

That's what comes from not consulting the manual...

Cheers,
Danny.


< replied-to message removed by QT >

Rick Thomas wrote:
> ...This suggests that a hierarchy is not an adequate model.

True, and fortunately Danny Ayers' recent proposal does allow for multiple parents. See http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsVocabulary

Hi folks,

I've updated the sample in the strawman vocabulary [1] on the Wiki following Steve's suggestions (I'd got the FOAF way out), also tweaked it (e.g. inserted the missing RDF namespace ;-) so it's now valid RDF according to the W3C's validator [2].

I've submitted a request at purl.org to use the obvious namespace:
http://purl.org/threads

once they've confirmed it would be good to add another person as another maintainer - Steve? You'd just have to register at purl.org, if you haven't already.

I've still not got any further with the person-grouping stuff (I was meant to be writing an article about RDF grouping last week too), but that's very much on my list for the next couple of days.

Cheers,
Danny.

[1] http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsVocabulary [2] http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/