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Topic: ThreadsML???
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Introduction
This is a continuation of a discussion about ThreadsML started over a year ago. Marc Canter resurrected it with an introductory email and has been pushing it along since then.
 
Reference links:
ThreadsML.org
Early definitive statement in the older discussion
An early JOHO article by David Weinberger
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Marc Canter  249
05-28-2003 02:04 PM ET (US)
In the sense of:

"who's doing what?"

"why is it such a hodge podge?"

"am I missing something here?"

or

"what am I supposed to do?"

Consider all that crap fodder and source material. I tried going through recent posts - culling what seemed like juicy tid-bits - to me.
But step back, take a deep drag on that infamous pipe of yours and just do your thang. :-) Please.

Give us some words that:
 - explains what the goals of ThreadsML are
 - what we've come up with so far (may want to check with Steve Y on that)
 - what work is in progress
 - what we can expect as far as a roadmap
 - you know - all that "marketing stuff that humans need" kind of communication stuff..........

And then send that to the good, kind Dr. Weinberger.

:-)

Maybe we can even get Paolo to create a good logo for us.

:-)

- Marc

< replied-to message removed by QT >
Ben Hammersley  248
05-28-2003 01:51 PM ET (US)
I have editor access there... wassup with that page?

On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 17:40 Europe/Stockholm, QT - Marc Canter wrote:

>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
Marc Canter  247
05-28-2003 11:40 AM ET (US)
Dudes,

Does anybody know anybody at Syndic8?

http://www.syndic8.com/feedinfo.php?FeedID=26156

- Marc
Danny Ayers  246
05-26-2003 04:10 AM ET (US)
No idea - I'll ask on rss-dev...

< replied-to message removed by QT >
Steve YostPerson was signed in when posted  245
05-25-2003 06:29 PM ET (US)
How well (and how) does the use of foaf elements for dc:creator and dc:contributor interoperate with existing RSS readers?
Danny Ayers  244
05-25-2003 08:05 AM ET (US)
I've put the strawman on the Wiki as "ThreadsVocabulary", please hack away :
http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/thwiki.pl?ThreadsVocabulary
Ben Hammersley  243
05-25-2003 06:27 AM ET (US)
On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 03:28 Europe/Stockholm, QT - Jay F wrote:
> --QT-------------------------------------------------------------
> Note: replies go to the entire group (see below)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> can you think of a better name for tdb:threadHead ?
>
> I think "head", to many people, suggests "header". However, it
> probably would suggest the right meaning to everyone who has
> worked with CVS.
> threadBegin is the other one I like a lot.

thread:firstPost

Obvious... :-)
Jay FPerson was signed in when posted  242
05-24-2003 09:28 PM ET (US)
> can you think of a better name for tdb:threadHead ?

I think "head", to many people, suggests "header". However, it probably would suggest the right meaning to everyone who has worked with CVS.

I was thinking of: threadStart.

This came to mind because, in online forums / discussion moderation, it is common to see "topic started by . . ." or, as on QuickTopic, "start a new topic".

Here are some other possibilities:

threadBegin
threadBirth
threadEnter
threadInception
threadKickoff
threadOrigin

threadBegin is the other one I like a lot.
Marc Canter  241
05-24-2003 08:45 PM ET (US)
OK - so I guess I'll just keep trying, and use the validator to test with........

- Marc "arrows in the back" Canter

< replied-to message removed by QT >
Danny Ayers  240
05-24-2003 05:20 PM ET (US)
> Right, both are optional--either one or both could be used, so:
>
> (optional) I am part of a thread that starts at: some-uri
> (optional) I am responding to (my parent is): another-uri

The second is covered by tbd:parent(s)

The first - can you think of a better name for tdb:threadHead ?

Cheers,
Danny.
Danny Ayers  239
05-24-2003 05:20 PM ET (US)
> Sablotron XSLT transformation error on line 7: XML parser error
> 4: not well-formed (invalid token).

> Is there supposed to be something else in there I'm missing?
> What gives?

I tried it at the W3C's RDF validator

http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/


from the URL, it fails (IOException while reading URI at character 249 using encoding null.)

copy & pasting the source, it works.

My guess is there's a junk EOF character or something crept in. Weird.
> P.S. THEN I'm gonna ask you how to add names to my "trusted
> network".

First you'll need a little black book and some invisible ink...
Jay FPerson was signed in when posted  238
05-24-2003 04:08 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 05-24-2003 04:09 PM
In reply to Danny's comment in /m235:

>I hadn't thought of identifying the head of the thread, but
> for the branch idea I guess that's what would be
> happening. In fact both parts could be optional - "I am
> the head of a new thread". Yep, I reckon this is worth pursuing.

Right, both are optional--either one or both could be used, so:

(optional) I am part of a thread that starts at: some-uri
(optional) I am responding to (my parent is): another-uri
Marc Canter  237
05-24-2003 03:45 PM ET (US)
Hey Danny - thanks for the FOAF bookmarklet.

Since I know FOAF is not directly related to this list, however this issue is relevant to the acceptance and pickup of ANY standard (such as ThreadsML) I'm gonna use this list reply to ask:

"why do I get this error code?"

Error
Unable to parse FoaF (http://blogs.it/0100198/gems/FOAF.rdf).

Sablotron XSLT transformation error on line 7: XML parser error 4: not well-formed (invalid token).

=======================

???????????????

If you look at my FOAF.rdf file - it looks fine to my naked eye. That's what FOAFmatic gave me.

http://blogs.it/0100198/gems/FOAF.rdf

Is there supposed to be something else in there I'm missing? What gives?

- Marc

P.S. THEN I'm gonna ask you how to add names to my "trusted network".



< replied-to message removed by QT >
Danny Ayers  236
05-24-2003 03:42 PM ET (US)
> > I know, early on in this dicussion, RSS was definitely a
> context
> > in which threads were imagined. But, I am asking:
> >
> > Is ThreadsML (at least, phase 1) really just the "threads
> module
> > of RSS"?
>
> Pretty much, but only in that RSS 1.0 is a major vocabulary of
> RDF. I'd go further, though, and say it's a profile too.

Can I add that it will also be an ontology (just don't tell Shelley!).
> Mandating use of the dc elements is absolutely key.

+1.

Cheers,
Danny.
Danny Ayers  235
05-24-2003 03:41 PM ET (US)
> The thread lists each post in the header, and each post lists
> any parents or children it may have. By suggesting this, are you
> imagining this kind of scenario:
>
> 1. a post ken1 is made, starting a thread
>
> 2. a reponse, lena1, is made indicating ken1 as parent and
> "tracking back" to ken1 who adds lena1 as a child
>
> 3. a response, ken2, is made indicating lena1 as parent and
> "tracking back" to lena1 who adds ken2 as a child
>
> -etc.

Yes and no I suppose - I wasn't really thinking that far ahead, just trying to see what you'd need to represent the thread in an RSS friendly fashion. But I'm sure the way you describe it would be a possible scenario.
> Is this correct: this would allow one to store, with/in each
> post, a bit of ThreadsML that represents just the post and any
> parents and children--and from this, an application could
> assemble (aggregate) a complete ThreadsML thread? For example,
> the ken1 post could store with/in it this plus some minimal
> header:



> <item rdf:about="http://example.org/ken1"&___GT___;
> <title>Start of thread</title>
> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honey, I'm
> home!</p>]]></content:encoded>
> <link>http://example.org/ken1</link&___GT___;;
> <dc:date>2003-05-17T12:45:59+01:00</dc:date>
> <dc:creator>
> <foaf:Person foaf:name="Ken">
> <foaf:email
> rdf:resource="ken@twounlimited.com" />
> </foaf:Person>
> </dc:creator>
> <tbd:parents />
> <tbd:children>
> <rdf:Seq>
> <rdf:li
> rdf:resource="http://example.org/lena1"; />
> </rdf:Seq>
> </tbd:children>
> </item>

Ouch, that got escaped for Outlook...I think I recognise it though. Yep, although I think the centralised server idea is a good one, I reckon setting things up so that they *can* be pretty loosely distributed would leave the options open.

> One of the things I wonder about in this is what exactly the
> start of a thread is. I mean, in general, does a thread always
> have a singular start? Can a post in the middle of a thread be
> the start of a new thread? How would that be expressed?

Interesting thought. Like a CVS branch, then - I don't see why not. We'd need an extra term or two to express this, but it could well be useful later.

> With the iCite net, I am designing it to allow for any child
> post to declare any post in the hierarchy of parents the start
> of the thread. So each post says:
>
> I am part of a thread that starts at: some-uri
> (optional) I am responding to (my parent is): another-uri
>
> Leaving out the optional second declaration would suggest a
> "flat" conversation type thread, where the sequence of posts
> could only be determined by each post's timestamp.
>
> Any thoughs on this?

I hadn't thought of identifying the head of the thread, but for the branch idea I guess that's what would be happening. In fact both parts could be optional - "I am the head of a new thread". Yep, I reckon this is worth pursuing.

Cheers,
Danny.
Danny Ayers  234
05-24-2003 03:32 PM ET (US)
> Could we Bag up the dc:contributors? (I'm still unclear on
> repeating elements in RDF. Danny heeeeeelllllppp)

I'll read up a bit - see if there are any discernable best practices. There's the containers (Bag/Seq/Alt), collections (first (rest)) or just repeated individual properties to choose between... I'll stick this on the faq to-do list while I'm at it...

> Also, I'm concerned that wrapping <rss:items> to <tbd:Thread>
> will break anything that currently uses XML tools to parse RDF.
> I know they're bad and naughty and ripe for a spanking, but we
> need to
> preserve compatibility with RSS 1.0.

Having 'channel' instead? Hmm - suppose so, though it does make it look more like a pig, I might just shoot a mail to rss-dev to try and get a better picture of weak links.

> Inside the FOAF stuff, I'd *love* to see <rdfs:seeAlso>.

Heh, so foaf:* sounds alright then? Again I suppose it would be best to do it in a way that didn't offend too many old-fashioned newsreaders (remember Reginald Bosenquet?).

Cheers,
Danny.
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