From the article "He accused the Bush administration of using a tragic event to push its agenda."

And in other news, it was noted that mammels use organs called lungs to oxygenate their blood.

Edited by author 03-30-2003 12:53 PM
Didn't the Bin Ladens of Saudi Arabia disown Osama? If that's the case, why tar Bush or anyone for associating with them? Isn't that like condemning someone for going bowling with the Dahmers or something?

After all, they don't funnel money to OBL, nor do they support what he has done, but condemn him. What's the issue?

I'm as liberal as they come, but as the family has nothing to do with Osama, other than stuff his bank account when he was a gigolo of sorts, I don't get the "murkiness" of the relationship. It wasn't murky. It was pretty straight-forward.

Yeah, I used to like Michael Moore, 'til I started realizing what a lying fuck he is. His dissembling does nothing to help the liberal viewpoint.

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html

I wonder if Moore will splice together different lines from Bush speeches and try to pass them off as a single speech, as he did with Charlton Heston. Why the Pentagon hasn't hired this master propagandist really escapes me -- he'd be perfect for any disinfo. ops.

There is no doubt in my mind that Michael Moore is the left's version of Anne Coulter. How he ever won a "documentary" Oscar is beyond me.

"According to Moore, the former president had a business relationship with Osama bin Laden's father, Mohammed bin Laden, a Saudi construction magnate who left $300 million to Osama bin Laden. It has been widely reported that bin Laden used the inheritance to finance global terrorism."

Note that there are a number of problems with this.

First, what the hell does Bush Sr.'s relationship with Mohammed bin Laden have to do with *anything*. The senior Bin Laden died when his son was only 13, at which time Osama inherited not $300 million, but rather closer to $80 million. That fortune did later apparenlty expand to close to $300 million, but how much Osama really had when he became the world's most famous terrorist is up for debate. In the mid-1990s the bin Laden family disowned him and assumed control of his share of his father's fortune. In addition, by his own account, Osama lost $150 million in his Sudanese ventures and, of course, much of his money was frozen or seized in various operations.

Second, as noted above the bin Laden family disowned Osama in the 1990s and he was formally exiled from SA. Apparently we're not supposed to hate all Muslims, but it's okay to assume that all the bin Ladens are no good, dirty terrorists!

There is no doubt in my mind that Michael Moore is the left's version of Anne Coulter.

I've always thought of him as the left's Rush Limbaugh, due to his habit of being extremely loose with the facts and then hiding behind a "but I'm just an entertainer" schtick when he gets called on it.

IIRC, the reason he's calling it Fahrenheit 911 is that he got Mel Gibson to bankroll it and Gibson wants to do "Fahrenheit 451", the classic sci-fi story. So it's a publicity stunt.

As for the Bush family, I think the point is that Bush deals in oil which funds terrorism while Congress takes testimony that media piracy funds terrorism and a proper foreign policy that would reduce US involvement in the Middle East which would reduce terrorism is nowhere in evidence. The specifics of who in Saudi Arabia supports what and what their business ties are in the US is really incidental.

That said, Moore is beating a dead horse. The San Francisco left papers have been reporting Bush's connections to bin Laden for months and nobody cares...

There are three families in this country we could do without - the Bushes, the Kennedys and the Jacksons...okay, probably quite a few more but I don't have room...

What are the odds that this "documentary" will be any more accurate than "Bowling for Columbine"? For a list of the lies and distortions in that one, see:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Remember that Simpsons episode where the TV show edited Homer's appearance to make him sound like a deranged sex maniac? Moore did something like that to Charlton Heston.

"03-30-2003 05:18 PM ET (US)
IIRC, the reason he's calling it Fahrenheit 911 is that he got Mel Gibson to bankroll it and Gibson wants to do "Fahrenheit 451", the classic sci-fi story. So it's a publicity stunt."

That must be a *very* odd relationship. Maybe Moore should make Gibson's Jesus film. Then he could have Charlton Heston and the NRA shooting Jesus with a rifle instead of making the Jews responsible via the Crucifixion (as Gibson's movie was rumored to do).

You know, I was thinking that the spelling for 'Fahrenheit' looked a little off, but...

Anyway, to tie this to the last post of March 29th, do you think that if Moore names enough names and lies enough, uh, lies in his movie, some oil company will sue him for trademark violation?

so i read the original heston speach that he edited, and honestly, he comes out sounding like more of a monster than he did in bowling for columbine. given that i think moore was being generous for the sake of brevity, there is at least a possibility he wasn't editing maliciously.

that said, i agree that the bin laden family thing is barking up the wrong tree, and a bit unkind to boot. i'm a fan of michael moore, but i wish sometimes he would fact check a little more vigorously. i wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be a fairly throw-away part though.

"so i read the original heston speach that he edited, and honestly, he comes out sounding like more of a monster than he did in bowling for columbine. given that i think moore was being generous for the sake of brevity, there is at least a possibility he wasn't editing maliciously."

He gives the impression that part of a speech Heston gave a year after Columbine was given right afterward in Denver. Give me a break about it not being malicious. Plus he clearly deletes the sentence about the NRA cancelling all of its events to make it look like Heston is basically saying, "We don't give a fuck about the shootings here."

And then he outright lies about the timing of Heston's visit to Michigan after a school shooting here. Shooting takes place in Feb. 2000, Heston visits in October for a pro-gun election rally, but Moore narrates, "Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally [after the shooting]."

And this is a man claiming we live in fictitious times? Well, I guess he should know.

Hey Brian,

Bullshit to everyone of your claims. I was in Colorado at the time. The NRA came in with major 'fuck you hippy weirdos who don't want their kids to die' mojo.

Major.

The NRA is filled with a bunch of lying weasels. Michael Moore cleaned their fucking clocks with Bowling and the best you can come up with is that the major evil president of the NRA said his major evil shit in a different order?

Bull Fucking Shit.

The whole 'Moore Lies' idea is just more of the fucking right wings Big Lie. The Right wingers are so close to Stalin it is amazing.

A bunch of evil bastards, Bush, Heston, Cheney, Richard Perle, etc. Evil criminal bastards, and they have suckers like you saying it is 'malicious' for Michael Moore to suggest that, hey, these guys are evil bastards who are on the take, and oh yeah, are in the midst of commiting treason against the United States of America.

Oh fuck you all. You won in 2000 by commiting crimes and just plain lying.

And you won. Our long national nightmare of Peace and Prosperity is over. Thank you GW Fuck Head Bush and your criminal cronies.

Bowling for Columbine was 'deceptive' only in that it didn't push as hard as it could have.

It didn't attack the 'great communicator' for setting up the climate that directly lead to Klebold and Harris murdering their classmates.

This whole 'respect the law, but only if it does what you want' bullshit started with Reagan and his attack on Washington.

I truly wish they had got Bush Senior. Fucking deviant deserved it. And maybe it would have kept asshole junior from violating every goddamn rule, law, and American Principle to engage in this wretched monstrosity.

The only fucking way that Bush Junior is going to keep from being strung up is by implementing a total police state. And he's going to have his chance, now that he kicked the fucking hornet's nest over.

Thanks a lot to Richard Perle et al. Thanks to fucking war criminals who cut their teeth on teaching Central American Thugs how to throw nuns out of helicopters. And no, this is not hyperbole...the thugs like Perle in charge of this insane foreign policy spent the 80's funning terrorist wars in Central America and Africa.

And they fucking got away with it!

Oliver North should have been lined up and shot, and the Right spun him as a hero?

Fuck the right.

Rich, if you actually believe the shit you are talking, you should think that your rambling rant hurts your causes more than helps because people just think you are an idiot and therefor your statements are at best ignored, and at worse disbelieved.

Whatever 'Roma.' Every word I wrote is true. Fuck this cause or that cause.

The Right Wing is in the process of destroying all that is good about our country. And you are either with the forces of good, or with Bush and his evil minions. Wait, Bush is the minion. The evil ones are in control.

Deal with it.

I just have this bad feeling that this country truly is on its way to become the Empire as depicted in the Star Wars films -- and I don't typically like to read too seriously into popular culture and its connection to our times.

I have very mixed feelings about all of this. On the one hand, I am impressed, awed and proud of the military might and power of this nation, but at the same time I am becoming frightened of it. I can't shake the feeling that in the near-future this country will truly become the world's ultimate Bad Guy. Demons are, after all, angels who have fallen.

brian, your reply didn't fit my post. i was explaining that the unedited speech was worse than moore's edit, and you replied that the timing was incorrect. i hadn't said anything about the timing.

rich: hang in there. it'll get better someday.

I am impressed, awed and proud of the military might and power of this nation

"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." - Samuel P. Huntington

How can you possibly be proud of the fact that 50% of global military spending is by one nation (no, it wasn't Germany in the 30's) and that said military is now beating up the little be-specticled kid on the block? The same kid you've been beating into submission for the last 12 years? What is there to be proud of?

"Shock and awe"? More like inspire fear and hatred. America, say hello to the next generation of terrorists. You'll need daddy Bush to protect you even more so soon, so welcome the police state while you are at it.

Rich Gibson's post nicely sums it up. This is a battle of good vs. evil and little things like *lying* about one's opponent simply don't apply in such a battle.

So if you want to take two speeches that Heston made a year apart, and splice them together to make it look like it's a single speech he gave in Colorado right after Columbine -- hey, Heston's evil, what's the big fucking deal?

If your thesis is that Heston came to Colorado to shove the NRA in people's faces, and you need to edit out a portion of his speech where he notes that the NRA cancelled almost all of its events there in light of the tragedy -- hey, who gives a fuck. The guy's evil, remember?

And if you need to lie and say he came to Michigan right after a Feb. shooting when in fact he didn't come until October for a pre-election rally -- Moore power to you! We need more people like Michael willing to do what it takes to confront EEEEVVVIIILLLL and not let pesky things like honesty and integrity impede their way. Much better to manipulate video and audio so you can attack a caricature of your opponent than deal wih him head on.

And, of course, nobody's going to object when the NRA does the same thing to gun control opponents, right? A misquote here, a lie there -- what's a bit of dishonesty between opponents after all?

The entire world seems in the process of being Coulterized -- I guess it's time to stop fighting it.

"How can you possibly be proud of the fact that 50% of global military spending is by one nation?"

Some facts:
The US accounts for 43 percent of the world's economic production, 40 percent of its high-technology production, and 50 percent of its research and development.

US military spending--even after the increase post 9/11--is only about four per cent of the country's gross domestic product.

As for Saddam being nothing more than the poor "little be-specticled (sic) kid on the block," that's just...uh...breathtaking. Way to go, troll.

Keefy your reference to America as "beating up" on Saddam for 12 years is laughable. By displaying any sympathy for this bloodthirstry tyrant, you are in fact supporting him. Supporting his payment to suicide bombers, suppporting his torture chambers, supporting his death squads, supporting his oppression of his people. they are starved, uneducated and without any say about their own country because of HIM.
I don't know how you derive any pride out of "your own opinion" when it's just cliched "if the administration is for it, i'm against it" contrarianism.

well, maybe i DO get it -- there's a moral superiority gained from "standing against The Man" -- but you know what? it's a childish pose.

I don't take any great pleasure out of allying myself with Bush & Co. on a million different issues, they're repugnant. it certainly would be easier to just sit back and rally against the war with everyone else -- but you know what? the things we've seen, the arguments we've heard convince us they're right on this.

it amazes me that after years of clamoring for human rights and against totalitarian regimes, the Left is now refusing to get behind the US doing the right thing solely because it's Bush making the argument. talk about being blinded by ideology. in fact, it's completely reactionary.

that's why there are recent pro miltary action articles by Hentoff and Hitchens -- they're long-time principaled critics who realize that the war on Iraq is worth doing -- and completely consistent with the moral standards they've espoused all along.

Rich, I knew your studied, reasonable persona was a facade from the moment I first engaged with you a couple of months ago. All that raging dogma, hovering just below the surface, straining, gnashing, wanting desperately to be let out.

It pleases me to no end to see you now, up to your public eyeballs in your knee-jerk, partisan wallow.

Just like Moore! You must be so proud.

Hey Ian...whatever.

You think that your view that America is blessed by 'God' is an objective truth.

I happen to think that the whole right wing crapfest is bullshit.

I stand by my words. Bush is an evil evil man who uses 'Christianity' to criminalize people with beliefs and sex lives that he doesn't like.

Bush is a fucked up evil evil person who used the non-threat of a petty tyrant in order to destroy the only institutions of international law and order that stood between the rule of law and the Bush rule of empire.

You call that good?

You want them faggots put in jail? Fine.

You want women to be pregnancy slaves? Fine.

You want a world with no laws but force? Fine.

I don't.

You want to vilify Michael Moore because he calls you on this crap? Fine.

But don't call it 'Dogma.'

Ian...you are one of the more whacked and evil representatives of this whole fucked up right wing tribe...go back into your theocratic hole and back to beating off over the war porn.

Brian...

Yeah...fuck you as well. Michael Moore made a hell of a movie. A movie that actually raises issues. You and your nutjob right wing ditto heads call that 'lying.'

And yet you support criminal lying Bush? What a strange world.

> Hitchens -- they're long-time principaled critics

Hitchens? Principled???
BWaaaa-haa-haa-ha!!!!!!!
This is the best display of "Green Sky" Right-wingers outside of Yahoo! message boards!

From The Japan Times:

Note this line:
(the US) "...who are doing what evil people do: starting a war, invading another country without provocation, even -- unthinkably -- "reserving the right to exercise the nuclear option.""

Hey Look at me! I'm George Bush! I'll start a fucking war and create the doctrine of 'preemptive war.' That means if I see a country I don't like, I'll declare war on them. Maybe I'll muke 'em.

What a whacko!

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?ed20030330a1.htm

"Somehow, every book you pick up seems to presuppose an elemental conflict between good and evil -- the very terms in which U.S. President George W. Bush has long cast this strange conflict."

"Why is that a problem? Because while there is no doubting the evil of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, it is his foes, Japan's democratic allies, who are doing what evil people do: starting a war, invading another country without provocation, even -- unthinkably -- "reserving the right to exercise the nuclear option." It's the effort to square this intractably round hole that has proved, over the past few months, so exhausting. And it is why this war just will not seem to go away, no matter where one turns."

Edited by author 03-31-2003 06:04 PM
moore is what lenin would call a 'useful idiot'

I take back what I said some posts ago. Rich Gibson is the Left's Anne Coulter :-)

"Where human rights and freedoms flourish, terrorists and tyrants do not thrive and conflict and chaos do not reign," Secretary of State Colin Powell said Monday at the rollout of the report. "America's democratic values, our national interests and our obligations to the international community demand that the defense and promotion of human rights are an integral and active part of our foreign policy."

Let's face it: More people in this country voted against GDub... it's that simple. Moore's films play to THOSE people. I understand it can be difficult for some people (namely, the Rush and Hannity crowd) to grasp that not everyone agrees or likes GDub. Yeah, a lot of people jump on his band-wagon during times of war, but lets face it, the majority of the country, and the world, still see this guy as kind of a boob... and Moore's films play to those people. Moore's films aren't Un-Patriotic, quite the opposite. It is people like Moore, in one way or another, that keep the politicians from just being COMPLETE 100% liars.