WOW, I wonder how long Chavez has left, hopefully not much.

I just hope the US never gets an elected tyrant...and no, I don't think Bush is it.

Now, Ashcroft might LIKE to be one....but he loses elections to dead people.

Is it just me or does it already seem stupid for a nation to rely on clocks whose accuracy relies on precises line voltage to control any sort of infrastructure? Digital clocks use a fraction of the power, and would be immune from this disruption. It's not 1970 anymore.

Non G-8 countries live in what I like to call the "Flintstones/Jetsons world", one where you can get bootlegs of just-released DVDs in market stalls and where you still have to "reconfirm" your flight home because your booking is done on paper.

As for the clocks, my guess is that it's not line voltage (which fluctuates with demand, even in G-8 countries) but AC frequency. AC power cycles at 60Hz (except in crazy old England, where I believe it's still 50Hz), and the clockworks of old electric clocks rely on this. The only clocks I know of that still use AC motors are "institutional clocks", the kind you see in schools and government buildings. Most clocks you can buy at Wal-Mart, even the analog ones, rely on DC power -- either batteries, or AC power converted to DC by a bridge rectifier -- and are not susceptible to AC power cycle slowdowns.

An interesting side note: As a sort of pre-networked world way of warning people of impending nuclear attack, the American Civil Defense people came up with a device that would sound an alarm the moment power dropped to 50Hz. I suppose before a nuclear attack, more power would be shunted to military facilities and it would be a quick way to tell everyone to assume the position and kiss their sweet asses goodbye.

Edited by author 02-28-2003 12:47 PM
The US's tyrant wasn't elected. he was selected; by the supreme court.

Anyhow, Venezuela's clock situation sounds like a good premise for some sci-fi hi jinks.

Doesn't even need to be sci-fi hijinks....

Find a small bookmaker, who relies on his electric wall clock. Splice into his power line a "waveform recoder".

Several hours before a major sporting event, swing his power from 60Hz to 40Hz. Running at 40Hz for 6 hours gives only 4 hours elapsed on the clock. Now you are two hours ahead of the bookmaker.

Find out the results of the match. Drop by the bookmaker, and make your bet - because you know the outcome. Now switch him to run at 80Hz for 6 hours, and his clock will be back in sync.

Go in the next day and collect your winnings. Do NOT repeat.

Caution: Do not attempt the previous exercise if the bookmaker has perfect pitch...

Or a watch.

Edited by author 02-28-2003 09:14 PM
The reason for the clocks going slow in Venezuela is the following:

1- Most of the electricity generation in Venezuela (around 70%) is from the Raul Leoni Hidroelectric Complex (Complejo Hidroelectrico Raul Leoni), around 10,000,000 Kw (10,000 Megawatts).

For details of the dam see:
http://www.venezuelatuya.com/guayana/gurieng.htm


2 - Since there has been a severe drought in this region, in order to slow the drop of the water level, the frequency of the generated AC electricity has been dropped from 60 HZ to 59.9 HZ. This is supposed to lower the electricity consumption. This was done aprox. from April 2002 to September 2002, and since the first week of February 2003.

3 - While it is true that battery operated wall clocks which rely on quartz oscillators will not be affected, clocks which depend on the AC frequency to keep time will be affected. This includes the digital displays of microwave ovens. I have been told that the TV pictures and computer monitors will shrink a little due to the 59.9 HZ AC frequency. Electronic experts can confirm this.

E M 167, my (educated, but possibly mistaken) impression was that anything with a microprocessor in it (microwave ovens, TV monitors, and computer monitors all contain microprocessors) is unlikely to use the 60Hz line frequency for timekeeping. Pretty much all microprocessors require a crystal oscillator (well, many of them contain on-chip all of the oscillator circuitry except the quartz crystal itself), running at a fairly high frequency. This is (more or less) the frequency you see reported as the "speed" of a PC, and is typically anywhere from 1MHz in small or old microprocessors up to several GHz in the latest PC CPUs. I believe it's easier (for safety and certification reasons) to scale this high frequency down to something useful for timekeeping than it is to get the 60Hz signal from the powerline down to a safe voltage for use inside the chip.

The only clocks likely to use the 60Hz powerline as a timekeeping standard are older electromechanical models, which use a synchronous motor driving a gear train to move the hands.

Anyone else remember the old electromechanical _digital_ clocks? They had flaps with numbers painted on them, often split across the middle, so the top and bottom halves could be slid out of the way separately, driven by gears from a synchronous motor.

I have two microwave ovens at my home, a Kenmore (purchased 1992) and a Tappan oven (1994?); I have to adjust the clocks every day, since they "lose" more than 2 minutes a day. (I live in Caracas, Venezuela)

Why the 150 seconds per day ? (In reality it is 144 seconds) I think the number comes from:

60 sec/min * 60 min /hr* 24hr/dy = 86400 sec/day

86400-(86400*59.9/60) = 144 sec per day

I had one of these electric clocks with flaps (1970's). One of the advantages of this type of clock was that if you had a blackout, they would stop; then when the current came back, they would start again, and you would know how long the blackout lasted, you just had to see the difference between your wrist watch and the "electric" clock.

I would guess that all appliances that rely on a AC motor would also see a speed reduction due to the 59.9 Hz issue.

Another "trick" used by the local authorities is to lower the generated voltage a 5% (from 110 VAC to 104.5 VAC). This is supposed to lower the electricity consumption.

There is more info (in Spanish) here:

http://www.caveinel.org.ve/general.asp?titulo=Noticias&ID=132

Somebody in this forum said that non G-8 countries are "Jetsons/Flinstones" worlds, but I bet that if there is a drought in the country were you live, and you depend on hidroelectricity, I'm sure that you will see these types of measures taken . . .

> but I bet that if there is a drought in the country were
> you live, and you depend on hidroelectricity, I'm sure
> that you will see these types of measures taken . . .

Could be ... but with 20% of the world's supply, I don't think we'll be finding out any time soon.

Edited by author 03-08-2003 05:08 PM
In http://www.worldwater.org/table1.html USA is quoted having 2478.0 km3/yr of fresh water, and Venezuela as 1317.0 Km3/yr.

Assuming (roughly) that the hidroelectric resources are in a similar proportion, and that the populations are:

USA 281,421,906 people by year 2000,Venezuela 25,100,000 people by mid 2002

(Ref: http://www.data.worldpop.org/prjprbdata/wcprbdata.asp?DW=DR&SL=)

Then, US has 88% more water resources, and 11.21 times more population, so Venezuela has much more water resources per capita than USA.

Our electicity is around 70% dependant on hidroelectric generation, while USA may be 10%, concentrated mostly in California, Oregon and Washington.

Thanks to the interconnection of modern power grids, if there is an extended drought in these states, they can get their electricity from other sources (thermolectric, etc.)

But if these interconnections were not present, measures such as the 59.9 hz, and 104.5 Volts AC would shurely be implemented, in case of a severe drought.

The idea I am trying to express is that if these measures are being taken in other parts of the world, it doesn't mean that they could not happen in the US, it is important for US to see what is happening in other parts of the world so they can take correct measures to avoid (or delay) these situations.