The fault of not delivering synch lies with Danger, not T-Mobile.

Slight correction... that should probably be the *Sony*-Ericsson P800, not the Nokia-Ericsson:)

Edited by author 06-27-2003 07:59 AM
It sounds like T-mobile has the power to make the old rule about "you don't really own software, you merely have a license to use it for a while" a very stark reality.

I woulda considered it at one point, too...except their memo note program was so sucky the device wouldn't've met my needs. Ah well, I had some delusion about open-SDKs and a much more Palm-like attitude anyway.

More like you don't really own the hardware, you merely have a license to use it for a while. Software at least has a plausible reason for using licensing. Hardware is property in the traditional and philosophical sense and its use shouldn't be affected by a license agreement.

cory-

you might wanna check out the handspring treo 300. amazon's got a pretty sweet deal on it; $500 but you get $300 back in rebates. you need to sign up for new svc (ie, a new phone number) but you get a full-fledged color palm, i got one about 3 wks ago and i love it.

I know it might not be in exactly the same category, but I just picked up the new Kyocera 7135 smartphone. It's a flip-phone with built-in palmOS and a list of techie features that I won't even begin to list here (OK, MP3 player, SD card, bluetooth, MP3 ringtones, 1XRTT network, and the list goes on). Best of all it syncs to the desktop (I use OS X) and like any palm, I choose what software and hacks I want to install or remove. Obviously YMMV, but I think it's just right.

-milo

Edited by author 06-27-2003 11:55 AM
I too, was interested in the Sony Ericsson P800, but the cost is just too damn high. Instead, I went with the Nokia 3650, and am pretty happy with it. It has a great feature set, and it works with iSync.

My write up about it is here: http://www.deosil.com/doug/entry.php3?id=062220031528

The camblog I'm using to post pictures from it is here: http://demiller.textamerica.com/ if you want to get some indication of picture quality.

Like the P800, it's a Symbian OS phone.

If you waited until Nov. couldn't you keep your same phone #?

I really doubt T-Mobile could or would delete all your personal data from your Sidekick without your permission. But their unilateral removal of the games is a bit of a blow. It goes to show just how un-web-like and closed the mobile phone operators want the mobile "Internet" to be...

*inahales deeply* Ah, that fresh, clean, kicked-in-the-nuts feeling just makes your day, doesn't it?
Thanks Danger/T-Mobile!
All our contract are belong to you!

I've been using a P800 with T-Mobile in San Francisco and the South Bay for about two weeks now. I've got it setup so I can send phonecam picks to my blog via email. You can take a look at those pics to get an idea of the quality--note that they are "high" quality, 640x480.

A big difference from the Sidekick is the lack of a keypad--you'll have to use a stylus. I'm still getting the hang of their handwriting recognition system (a bit more flexible than Graffiti).

I downloaded Opera for the Symbian OS, and it looks very nice, but I've found the GPRS performance to be quite flaky. I don't know if it's a problem with the network (Cingular), the Symbian OS, or the apps, but very often the GPRS connection fails, despite high signal strength. This seems to happen right when I'm trying to show off my new gadget to my friends.

I bought my P800 from the Sony-Ericsson website for $650. I brought it to the T-mobile store on Market & 3rd, and the sales rep was able to setup GPRS after spending about 45 minutes on the phone with the Data Support group. Beware that T-mobile still doesn't officially support the P800, and they could use that as an excuse to stop helping you if you take up too much of their time.

Edited by author 06-27-2003 11:53 AM
I'm not in the least surprised by this. I sent my first Sidekick back and canceled the plan when T-mobile insisted that their plaintext web page showing all my PDA information was "secure". They clearly have no conception of what they've got or how to properly support it.

Sounds like class-action-lawsuit bait to me.

I was trying to remember what Tmobile called itself before the current incarnation. Didn't they have to change their name because their reputation was so bad?

The Treo600 is looking interesting.

It has a camera, sd slot to add more memory, backup your data, runs PalmOS5, and you can write your own palm apps for it.

I purchased my first Sidekick June 20 and have really enjoyed using the device. When this "update/upgrade" was forced upon me last evening, and I discovered it's results, I was extremely angered by this big brother tactic.

This is my first time doing any business with Sidekick/T-Mobile. I really like the device. Are there other options that would give me similar types of services without too many problems, and have simple, intuitive interfaces?

I have never been angered by a company's actions so much before. The games do not mean that much to me, but it obviously shows that T-Mobile decides what I use on this device at all times.

I contacted my state's attorney general's office today in regard to this business practice. I also faxed them a copy of the T-Mobile contract.
They were very interrested in this "business practice".

A little meta-discussion going on back here as well...

http://www.hiptop.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5802

Ok, folks... look... you are doing business with a company named "Danger"... what did you expect? At least there is some truth in advertising there...

B.

Derb: Your information isn't really saved on the Sidekick -er, Hiptop unit. It's saved on a Tmobile server, which then gets cached to the handheld device. So yes, if you cease to be a Tmobile subscriber, your access to your data disappears.

I still like this device a bit too much to give it up, but perhaps I can switch to AT&T (and maintain my current number :D) this winter...

as for the P800, I just wish they had a camera-LESS version. damnit I carry around a $1000+ camera, this is silly

The only problem I have with switching and ditching my Sidekick at the moment is the fact that the TMobile plan includes unlimited net access. I haven't been able to find a competing carrier with the same deal. If someone can point me to a competing carrier that does (AT&T sure doesn't), please do.

DaveW, TMobile was formerly VoiceStream in the states. Actually, VoiceStream was a US company, and got bought by TMobile, a European company. That's the reason for the name change. I don't remember any particularly bad reputation for VoiceStream, in fact I chose them initially because they seemed to have a better rep than the others.

Booklegger, the problem here is TMobile, not Danger. TMobile is the company doing this. Danger just supplies the system that TMobile is fucking us with. From all I can tell, Danger is doing everything they can - they're getting fucked by TMobile in this deal as well.

I was looking at the P800 too, but this Register review gave me pause. In the end, the writer thinks it's worth having, but I'm not so sure.

I want a phone that's mostly good for data. I only need to make voice calls a couple times a year, but there are a couple of times a day I'd like to be able to run a Google query or the like. Anybody have any recommendations for that kind of device?

I'm in Los Angeles - anybody have any thoughts on service providers?

As for a phone that is more for Data/work than phone, I've been *very* happy with my Visor w/phone attachment. Some downsides, sure, like Sprint-only service, data access isn't unlimited (depending on your plan), not color, and it's not at cool as a hiptop. But a Visor costs $100 and the phone add-on can be had for $30, so it's way cheaper than a Treo, or the 'cell phones with a Palm in them' ala P800, as well as being more useful IMHO with it's bigger screen, big buttons, and old-skool graffiti input (I don't like the mini-keyboards for data entry). Also you can run all kinds of software on it, and sync the data to anywhere you need, including multiple clients and/or servers. The big deal-killer for me, in regards to the Hiptop, was the fact that it's a 'dead-end' as far as your data goes. My Visor w/phone attachment isn't the perfect solution, by far; IMHO that would be if Sony took one of there higher-end Palm devices (the ones with the flip-round screens) and added a built-in phone/data link- that would be *perfect*. But for the time being, it's the next-best low-buck option I've seen & used.

Edited by author 06-27-2003 01:35 PM
I'll have to second Karl's thoughts on the Treo 600. That's what I'll probably be switching to. I gave up on the hiptop a few months ago after the SDK came out but that there was no way to actually LOAD ANYTHING ON YOUR DEVICE without becoming a Level 5 developer and going OTA on it.

Treo 600 pros: Palm OS 5, full Palm App/SDK support, decent hardware (32MB RAM, 144MHz OMAP ARM), SSHv1/v2 programs publicly available, 640x480 built-in camera, decent keypad, bright (daylight usable) screen, SDIO, large battery (1800mAh)

cons: low-res [for an OS5 Palm] screen (160x160), no built-in BT (but support promised via SDIO), no AMPS fallback, non-removable battery (but apparently there will be a 1200mAh external add-on battery)

Specs: http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/236-1.htm
Gallery: http://www.mixstar.com/treo600/

There's apparently GSM and CDMA versions, although it looks like the first model to come out in the fall (Sept/Oct) will be on SprintPCS. My T-Mobile contract ends on Oct 1 (I paid full price for my hiptop too), I'll definitely be cancelling.

BTW, TreoCentral tested real-world transfer rates with Bmeter a few months ago (Treo 300 vs 270). On average, the Sprint 1xRTT 3G is about 4-5x faster than GPRS. Sprint's been offering unlimited 3G Vision for +$10/mo, so there's no reason not to switch (even T-Mobile is offering unlimited data for +$20/mo now, so even if you stick with them, there's no real reason to stick to the hiptop).

My main concern with both the Sprint Vision and GPRS is missing calls due to data usage. Right now, I believe that if you're actively transferring data on either system (not just dormant), you won't get an incoming voice call. My understanding is that on the GPRS end this is a handset limitation (Class B allows voice monitoring during data transfer, Class A [no handsets exist] allow simultaneous data and voice) but a network issue for Sprint Vision (that may or may not be upgraded next year, may require 1xEV, which would be a while off?).

Anyone have more info on this topic? I'm unclear on the latter.

See:
http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=133804
http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=72217

I don't know about the Treo, but I can say that with my Visor w/Phone attachment (which makes it almost the same as a Treo, just bulkyer) that if I'm online then I can't get a voice call, and vise-versa. But can do anything else with the unit while talking or online, such as look up an appointment or open the calculator. But no, you can't do data & voice. It's a lot more like a 'modem' kinda vibe than the Wi-Fi vibe, if you know what I mean. :)

I don't know why cory is intent on blaming tmobile dor this when its dangers decision whether to pull these apps. Tmobile doesn't seem to care what you do with their bandwidth. Blackberry customers use the same gprs I do on my color sidekick.

The real problem is that is vendor lockin and thin client solutions are easily abused. I don't think any SK owners own anything, even the OS. Its all a temporary license, so next time danger is short on cash it may pull something else without warning.

Some replacements are the blackberry 600 or that new nokia with a camera built in. I'm starting to dig the blackberries. They're not pretty but they do geek-friendly stuff like ssh and vpn on top of what the SK offers. Sure my SK is color but once the novelty wears off I might jump ship too.

Edited by author 06-27-2003 03:12 PM
I don't see this necessarily as such a bad sign as everyone else. It's a waste of money if they were continually paying a license for those shitty games. If that's the case, should we insist that they continue to do so? For what? Trradition? I mean, those games SUCKED. Good riddance.

What they should do (at least) is give us a few replacements. There are already some decent games on developer.danger.com (no you can't install them yet, just simulator) -- I'm sure if they offered a contest or just some decent compensation they could get a ton of homebrew games to a professional level (it wouldn't take much to beat the games they ditched, that's for sure.

I agree that there are a lot of issues with the hiptop, but losing those crappy games is but a minor one. I don't think insisting they return those pathetic games is a good idea -- insist that they let you install your own apps instead or whatever.

Skallas: the general tone on the hiptop forums seem to lay the blame on T-Mobile for holding up OTA updates, not allowing program loading, etc. However, from my experience Danger has been completely unresponsive to internal issues (ie, web proxy stuff). Cory's in the beta program, so he may know some other stuff I don't. In the end, I don't think it matters who's to blame. The result are the same: most of the techno-savvy early adopters have been alienated and are pretty disenchanted, platform/developer mindshare is about nil, and the competition is now just about caught up. 2 years ago it looked like the Danger platform was something different (and possibly awesome), and at this point it looks like an also ran, and more and more like a dead end.

This June 2002 interview makes for fun reading (compare and contrast): http://news.com.com/2008-1082-934949.html


Will: in LA (city), I've had the best reception with Sprint, rock solid reception just about everywhere. I'm currently on T-Mobile w/ (well, b/c of) the Sidekick, and I get lots of dropped calls/fade out. In LA they're using the Cingular network (well apparently using Cingular bandwidth, but doing some of their own switching, but it's still bad). If you're doing a lot of out-of-city travelling, you might want to give AT&T a look, they still have the widest overall coverage, but in general I don't really recommend them. Nextel has the funkiest coverage, in some parts it can be quite good, but it's very spotty. Also, Verizon's reception wasn't bad, but their customer service went (even more) to shit after the Airtouch merger, and I would recommend that everyone stay away from them at all costs.

Timmy: Sprint PCS has been offering unlimited data on their Vision (3G 1xRTT) plans for $10/mo since the end of last October (right after I picked up the hiptop): http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?id=358

T-Mobile just began offering unlimited data for $20/mo: http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?id=593

I gave up on my (B&W) Hiptop about a month ago, and managed to sell it on eBay for $150. I have switched to a Sharp Zaurus SL-5500 as my PDA and am, aside from a few dumb bugs which are being actively worked on (ah, the joys of opensource) quite happy with it (I'll be happier when there's a working iSync conduit, but in the meantime I've got everything stored in flash anyway so it's not like the data will be lost if I lose power), and have gone back to my Nokia 3390 for cellphone.

My plan is to eventually get an Ericsson T68i or similar and a Bluetooth card for the Zaurus, and get the best of every world, and in the meantime I'm going to play around with the Zaurus' VoIP stuff too.

A single integrated device would be nice (if only because it meant I would only have to charge and hold one thing instead of two), but from being one of the early Hiptop adopters (bought mine on launch day) and spending something like 8 months and way too much money on crappy low-quality service and a shitty PDA with a shitty webbrowser (the only good thing on the Hiptop was the IM, and I don't use IM that much, and of course its IM was at the mercy of the Hiptop's piece of shit antenna), I've learned to prioritize my geek angst. :)

I was once an owner of the b&w Sidekick, and I loved the hardware, but the lack of apps really was a drag. As a wireless developer I really wanted a device I could hack. When the p800 came out I made the switch, and thus far I have no regrets. IMHO the p800 is the most advanced phone on the market right now. Not only does it have C++ apis for every aspect of the phone (SMS, Bluetooth, etc.) but it has the best Java support I have seen (J2ME, Personal Java and JavaPhone); with the possible exception of the Symbian Nokia phones (which support J2ME 2.0). The built in camera is nice, and I just used the VoiceMemo app to record a speach of my departing CEO (he just got laid off) from about 5 ft away, and the sound of the WAV file is remarkably good. I was able to send the file to my PC using bluetooth.

/m26

The thing is that the Hiptop has a really crappy antenna. I get great reception with T-Mobile on my freebie Nokia 3390 (even when sitting by my computer and in other places where cellular reception tends to suck), but the Hiptop was atrocious; I'd often have bad reception outdoors, even.

Please, people, don't give Handspring your money!
<br>
(yeah, I know they just got bought by Palm). The track record for their Treo handsets is terrible, and they want to charge you $20 just to evaluate your problem if you call them up, because it might be "a software problem." I was actually told this *after* I told them that the reason I was calling was to get a warranty replacement on a Treo on which the flip-top had broken off due to the flimsy hinge. I'd love to see the software than can blow the lid off a clamshell phone. The reason they want to triage you for "software problems" is so they can turf you, which they'll do at any opportunity "That is, not our problem, sucker." Treo promises a lot of things out of the box, but if you look deeper, they support little or none of it. The units are flimsy, overpriced, and their attitude towards customers is openly cynical.

Will, Leonard: I'm in Los Angeles too and is using T-Mobile. Maybe the phone or the places I usually go makes a difference, because I have excellent coverage everywhere. I never get dropped calls - unlike with Sprint and Nextel which I used earlier.

I use a Sony Ericsson T68i (not very fancy, but it sync with isync works great - can't imagine having a phone without that now).


 - ask

What Lisa said. I'm on my 4th Treo now. I guess this is one way to extend your 1 year warranty... but I'd just as soon not have to call in, get threatened with a $20 charge, and then have to pay shipping to mail my latest casualty back to them for replacement (and be down a phone for a week). The first 3 they advance shipped me a replacement. The last one they shipped me an empty box to ship my broken unit in. Check treocentral's fora for the crappy history on these units.

I was early adopter of Handspring tech. First kid on the block to have a Visor, and then VisorPhone. Those worked fine. But this Treo thing is crap. I won't give details because Lisa captured the nut of it. Beware.

Didn't know Palm bought them. Have to check that out. Maybe that'll be a good thing. Their customer service (outsourced to India crap) couldn't be worse.

Cingular has disabled my tri-band Sony Ericcson phone to be used with a locally purchased sim card in Europe. They say they now require you to use their roaming service at $2.99 a minute instead of the local charges at 20 cents to call back to the states. You think you own the phone, but you really don't!

fwiw, i really havent been very pleased with my SE t68i.
many of my friends have had theirs replaced several times because the units would eventualy stop powering on. i personaly have had reception problems intermitantly. most of all i very much lament the lack of a "pager style" notification of incoming sms messages like my last nokia phone had.

love the bluetooth, but i wont buy sony-ericssion again.

The P800 Rocks! Mp3 player, camera, phone, message centre, email, color screen, infrared, bluetooth, gsm, long battery life and the only decent web browser on the planet: Opera.

Ok, a tiny, hobbled, not-so-configurable version of Opera, but still...

Downsides? Bulky. And I have to carry my psion mx around if I want to use a keyboard: I don't glyph.

Unfortunately, Cory, in Europe I can use mine from the cow pastures of the Netherlands to the peak of Mt. Zermatt (and have!) and everywhere in between. But until you guys get decent GSM cover, you yanks are limited to major metropolitan areas and interstate highways... pfah... not my idea of constant communications.

Check out http://www.esato.com for full skinny.

SolanaPhil: I haven't tried it, but when I choose t-mobile the word on
the usenet groups were that they'll give you the unlock code after some
number of months if you call and say you want to use the phone in
Europe (or wherever).

The providers usually don't have roaming agreements everywhere, so even if you don't mind paying a fortune per minute it doesn't always make the phone work.


 - ask

--
http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/

just to say the p800 is a really great bit of kit,don't know how much it's costing you in the us but In the uk it's worth every penny! the ability to have a camera where ever you are for example is great no more wishing I'd brought my digital cam(ok the quality isn't as good but good enough for spur of the moment trips)as for all the rest now I no longer have to carry round phone mp3 player, pda etc have it all with me at once. the only thing I'm now getting worried about is what to do when camera fones get banned in public places. and the downside is the the small sony duo memory which is next to impossible to get hold of!

I have a b&w SK, and use both T-Mo and Nextel (cell dealer). The P800 looks nice, but I think it's over priced, really. I can't justify $1K+ on the P800 when the phones change like supermodels change clothes at a fashion show. :-)

After hearing that Treo rant, thanks. I was considering that, but not if the hardware is as bad as the SK's (I'm on #2, and very careful with my toys). I was considering the Blackberry, but the browser is WAP--no graphics, and the software is far too expensive compared to Palm OS apps.

So, what I'm thinking now is the Clie UX (BlueTooth and 802.11) and a BT phone of some sort to use GPRS (there is a GPRS memory stick modem out there, if you can find someone who has it in stock). Yes, it means I have to carry two devices, but this way I am not locked into the cell technology that the current phones have. And the Palm will have a longer lifespan than any phone will.

Plus, the UX, with all the Palm OS apps out there can damn near take the place of a laptop.

Total price will still be less than the P800.

OK, that's my .02.

Good hunting for geek toys, everyone.
=Velociraptor=

Make peace, not war!