Edited by author 01-20-2003 06:17 PM
Ah Miguel! I see that we are getting around. First Max Sawicky, and now here. Well, let me repeat the question that you kind of didn't answer: You can call for recall elections in August. Why don't you wait until August and vote him out then? Afterall, as I stated over at Maxspeak, if I can wait until 2004 to vote out my draconian, neo fascist leader, why can't you wait several months to vote out yours? Is it because you really don't want elections? Is it because you really want a military strongman to come and destroy even the modest European style reforms (hated by the fringe right as much as communism itself...) proposed by Chavez?

I might note that this is where the Digital Divide rears it's ugly head. Clearly, the majority of the Venezuelan poor don't have computers and don't have blogs. Shameful actually...

Here's that link to more of Miguel's pro military coup (he never answered the question as to whether he supported the first and I don't think it's a different Miguel...)propagand---, uhhh, "truthtelling" at this link:

http://maxspeak.org/gm/archives/00000794.html#comments

Philip Shropshire
www.threerivertechreview.com
www.majic12.com

PS: You know it's kind of funny, you talk about how Chavez wasn't really democratically elected and I have to ask you compared to what and to who? Our votes weren't even important enough to count here in the states and the guy doesn't even tread softly after that as he initiates steps to ruin the economy, decimates civil liberties, rounds up, we think, several thousand people or less without trial or counsel, we're not sure, for dubious reasons...I mean, if Chavez had the Bush record then maybe Viva la Revolution but he breaks into a private company to take food in order to feed the poor...? And doesn't bother to kill any of the yuppie protesters while he's doing it? Not exactly Pinochet material if you ask me...

For the record (since a couple people have written to me about this): this link does not imply an endorsement of the anti-Chavez movement or of Chavez. As I wrote to one friend:

"I linked to it because I'm fascinated with the weirdness of the politics there. You've got trade-unionists and contributors to the Socialist Worker endorsing a new election, and bloggers attempting to create a web-based response (online leakage into civil polity is my new overweening obsession). There's no endorsement (there was no commentary from me on the link), but it *is* something I want keep track of. I'm predicting/waiting for a flashpoint in meatspace politics when some kind of loosely federated smartmob slashdots the vote, not just to ouster someone (the Filipinos already did that), but also to install someone.

"One of the downsides of BB being pretty widely read is that it sometimes makes it hard to use it as a commonplace book for bibs and bobs about the world that I want to keep track of. In any event, I'm hoping that a vigorous discussion ensues in the Discuss link so that I can see how the different sides frame their arguments."

Yeah, it doesn't seem to fit into your politics at all. I just think this is the opposite of what happened in South Korea and that Miguel doesn't represent the good guys, or, at the very least, the poor guys, who probably don't have access to computers and blogs...Just a hunch.

The problem here is that ther is so many people that is learning from us just watching TV and from "propaganda chavista". We had elections two years after Chavez began his "first" term. The other candidate was and old pal of him, Arias Cardenas. A sucessful former governor from the State of Zulia, the one that has the lake, Maracaibo City and all of that. He was going to be the winner of that election, but "misteriously" it was posponed like for three or four months later. Then, Chavez used all our tax money to cheat and to eliminate every resistance he had. And I forgot to mention that he hired personally the company that counts the votes, INDRA.
We are afraid that if we do not do the referendum now, he will manage to eliminate us, to kill us,(as he is already doing). If we do the referendum now, he will lose like 90% against 10%, because he IS really a lousy president.
And at least you are crying because your waiting for an election in 2004. If we just have that. This guy was elected to be president for 5 years, with no re-election. He dissolved the congress, called for a referendum, aproved a constitution taylor-made for him and his pals, and modificated the term to be 6 year-long with re-election.
And then, he started again. So he is 4 years now in charge, still 4 to go, and destroying every democratic institution he will again manage to be re-elected and to perpetuate in power.
And YOU think you got a problem?!

The Venezuelan upper class and the US intelligence agencies are attempting to subvert Venezuelan democracy.-The upper classes there use protest tactics to cause disruption and bad publicity for leftist governments with staged media events and hyped-up lock-outs masquerading as popular general strikes.

When Andres Perez tried to give the country away to the rich in 1989 the poor complained and Perez had 1000 of them gunned down in the riots called the Caracazo. Chavez led a coup against Perez in 1992. Perez was impeached for corruption in 1994 and Chavez was freed from jail.
Chavez was elected President in 1998 and 2000 by landslide votes.
In 1998 Chavez had the luxury of a mandate to purge and restructure the judicial, military and administrative branches of the government. Even the right wing in the US applauded some of these efforts. Voters overwhelmingly endorsed Chavez's new constitution.
Once Chavez passed a moderate reform package of 38 laws the US and its wealthy friends in Venezuela – went literally ballistic and decided that Chavez had to go.
The only evidence given by the right wing for wanting to depose Chavez is that he gives long and lousy speeches. He has been a popular leader for four years and listens to the poor majority who expect him to help them. The crime which Chavez has committed was the 39 laws he passed. These laws include increased spending on education, health care, modest land reforms, free elections for unions and higher oil royalties. The interventions of the US, the silence of the world and the CIA will come back to haunt the rich one day.

http://www.aporrea.org/english.php

Pardon me? Mr. Macario, let me say that you are either a radical from the chavismo, or you do not live in Venezuela and want to play Civilization watching us die here.
Purge and reestructure the judicial, military and administrative branches of the government? Well, that is a funny way to say "I want to put all my friends and comrades in charge". The General Attorney used to be the vice-president, the Supreme Court was named adn appointed by the finger. I just want to be a country like the US, or France, doing this.
Moderate reform? He taylor-made 40 laws, without any consultation of the minorities,(nor the majorities or anybody), that gave the Government the right to confiscate private property, among others.
"He is been a popular leader that listens to the poor majority who expect him to help them", that must be the only true statement in your propagandistic speech, but it is merely that: he listens, he did not care. He did NOTHING for the poor majority, he only cares for power, luxuries and money. Period.
Do you want to have some proof on this, just watch the most recent "Alo Presidente", broadcasted from "23 de Enero", he said "hi!" to a mother and his kid, and she told him, on national television, on MY national television "president, you forgot to help Us, give Us a little hand",(presidente, se olvido de nosotros, echenos una manita, in Spanish).
We have more and more kids on the streets, we are now REALLY a poor nation, we are facing the horror of the "Circulos", the shame represented by Acosta Carles...and you still have the guts to write all those lies here?
I am sorry, but this is just plain crap. Aporrea is crap, how comes that in the "forum" section of that website they say that they do not accept there anyone that is not "chavista"? How comes that to the agression made by the National Guard to a bunch of people, mostly women, they are asking for "prison" to the women that act "against the poor national guard"...with his steel blade and bombs. Come on!
Try a little harder my friend, the world is watching, and lies have short feet.

a "strike" is not a strike just because the media calls it one....
a lockout of workers by owners and executives is not a strike...
a "strike" in which McDonalds, Wendys and other foreign chain stores shut their doors and refuse to pay their workers is not a strike...
marching around with placards is not a strike...
feebly trying to block highways and millions of workers trying to get to work is not a strike...
a strike with no real support from the working class is not a strike...
anyone who has participated in a strike knows that the media never cheers it! the first hint that there is no strike in Venezuela is that the media supports it. Any labor organizer or union member who has ever been on strike knows how it really works.
only the rich who've never had to organize and fight for their rights as workers could possibly think that a lockout by owners against workers could be called a strike.

www.vheadline.com
hwww.zmag.org/venezuela_watch.htm

Oh, well. Then how do you call this? A conspiracy where 80% of the population tries to "manipulate" the other 20%?
Maybe the problem here is semantics, but the problem remains the same.
Maybe nobody has never seen something like this before, maybe the name is not right, but the working class supports the strike.
The government is the one who is responsible for the poverty, for the economy,(needless to say, is in its worst crisis for a very long time), for the hate and division on Venezuela.
Some of the websites you suggested tried to put this as a "racial" fight, or a fight between the "poor" and the "rich". You know it is not like that. You know that humble and rich feels the same hate for Chavez and everything he represents.
Well, how could you justify that a government is not able to run a country, to provide the basis, the basic services the people need to work, to eat, to live in peace?
Are you saying that a bunch of "rich" people and "white against black" are more powerful than a nationīs president? A president that has to threaten and menace people in order to stop marchs against him, that hires reporters, journalists and criminals to shot oppositors it is just NOT able to run a country. Period.
This guy it is just NOT able to run a country, just look at the mess, you may try to call it "excessive normality", but you know, right inside that red cloud that surrounds your eyes and mind, that THIS is not normal. Call it the name you want it, just donīt call it normal.

The opposition attempted a military coup in April 2002, has attempted to shut down the economy in order to try to oust the elected government of Hugo Chavez. In response, the supporters of the government’s program has come out to defend the government, the constitution, and its reforms. The reforms are part of the ‘Bolivarian Process’. The Bolivarian movement aims at redistribution of the wealth of the country for the benefit of its poor majority-- including land reform and reform of the state-owned oil company-- and greater Latin American integration. The Bolivarian movement has also opened up space for democratic participation with constitutional reforms and assistance for community media, community self-organization, co-operative economic projects, and more. In everyday encounters there’s this spirit of change—after greeting each other on the street people will immediately start talking about the projects they’re organizing, all the organizing that they’re doing, studying the constitution, establishing co-operatives. The 80% that live in poverty knew frustration, disempowerment. With his humble, indigenous and afro-Venezuelan roots, they feel that Chavez really represents them. The description of Venezuela as a country with a majority that’s poor, brown, black, or indigenous and an elite that’s wealthy and white, is accurate. Chavez is proud of his indigenous and African roots. When the opposition press attacks him, they use words like ‘savage’. He represents the majority, and the majority understands that when the opposition demonstrates its contempt and hatred for Chavez, it’s also demonstrating its contempt and hatred for them. ‘el proceso’, give the poor, the victims of institutionalized racism, a voice they’ve never had before.

The biggest problem is that no one here knows what's going on in Venezuela.

Here are the facts I'm fairly sure of:

Chavez is corrupt. The "strike" is not a strike, considering that the employers are organizing. Both sides have well-organized, massive propaganda machines and they're spewing forth in a forum on Venezuelan politics near you right this very moment! Your average Venezuelan is being taken advantage of right now. You really can't believe much that's being reported on in Venezuela right now.

Here's what I suspect. No matter what happens, the majority of Venezuelans are screwed. No matter what happens, Chavez probably won't leave office democratically... he'll be ousted by force or he'll die naturally in office. It's only a question of when. The Americans are probably dabbling in local politics... oil, y'know? They're likely not on Chavez's side.

Question: Under the new constitution, has Chavez's term even started yet?!

Cheem, thatīs right. Everything you say is just right. And about the question on Mr. Chavezī term, he already has four years in charge, (he was elected for five years in 1998).
If we were talking about waiting for december to go to an election and then replace him, there would be no problem.
The point is that he was elected to rule for five years, and he made a brand new constitution that gaves him six years instead. Then he made a new election to start over again. And he included reelection in our constitution, and he menaces to stay until "2021".
What is that? A dictator. Period. If we were talking about a normal five-year term, or a four-year term with one reelection, that would be okay. But he will have eight years in office when the next election scheduled take place. And who kwnos what he could and would do to cheat again.
He has done that already, he will do it again.
The propaganda machines are outrageous. They have many government-paid websites, supposedly controled by "the poor", (the poor people that uses PHP and have money to host a website with many mirrors and feeds).
And to say something to "tagabukid", please try not to be so obvious.
Many years ago, when Chavez and his pals attempted to do two military coups,(not to mention other attempts that were soffocated and never came out to the public light), many leftists threated his opponents calling them "golpistas", accusing them of being part of the military coup. Nowadays, that very same people are the defenders of the "process". What an opportunity, isnīt it?
I do not know in wich country tagabukid is living in. The one I see is full of afraid people, people that after saying "hello" start talking about how we are screwed.
How the "bolivarian movement" has oppened this and that, is just a creation of tagabukidīs imagination. I am not rich, I am not pale white, I am not fascist.
The only organization Chavez has promoted, is the one that put war weapons in hands of some "angels" to kill and terify every single person against them or Chavez. Yesterday I read on the newspaper that a dangerous criminal was caught by police in ths very crime scene, and hours later was liberated because he carried an id issued by the political police. The political police said that he was a "patriot in a mission for the revolution".
Go figure.