Dear Anthony,

You are right,i am glad that you are hell bent on the expose of Parthi Baba,and more the merrier.

Edited by author 08-26-2001 04:09 AM
Just a quick note to people who get these board messages sent direct to their email. You only get it as it first goes up. If the sender then decides to correct or add to it a minute later (as often happens), you don't get it again. So you don't see the changes. It may be good for those websites who add these emailed posts to their sites, to take them straight from this board instead.

The momentum of this expose of sb continues to grow. I get more and more feedback from around the world as the word spreads. I spoke to a family of 5 devotees the other day who told me they had received 5 copies of The Findings from different friends. They ignored the first lot but in the end
they thought they had better read it so they could defend whatever was being said.

However, after they read it, they sat down among themselves and starteddiscussing it and without each of them realising it, the others had doubts which they had suppressed over the years. In the end, the whole family decided to leave. And they had been really active in their local
organisation. I had really thought they would grow old and die still attached to him - but fortunately their friends cared enough to inform them of the truth. I have known them for many years. Although pretending how wonderful it is to have their guru, their life has not reflected this at
all. They have suffered one disaster after another and to be honest never seemed to laugh or look happy.

It is growing. It will all end. It won't go on forever. As long as people who already know the truth of this 'guru, ' continue to care enough for their fellow humans, to do what they can to spread it. It doesn't need 24 hours a day. If we just combine whatever actions feel right connected with
the expose, into all our other life activities. I am about to have a ball spreading it far and wide right now. The more people you pass it on to, the more people end up hearing. Tell anyone and everyone. I have a ball. "Did
you hear about this guru guy in India that has millions of
followers...........etc. They don't need to be devotees or even have heard of him tell them anyway. In the end so many people will know, that all the devotees will start listening.

Edited by author 08-26-2001 08:29 AM
Checker1 re 121
I wonder where you get the idea that I haven't been to India? I have several times, and its a wonderful place. Last visit, I attended one of the 12 holy places for the Shivartri Festival and humbly joined the Saddhus each day for morning contemplation as the dawn rose. (not sure of correct spellings). Slept under the stars for a few weeks and had a wonderul time.

And why would anyone need to have been to India or be of Indian nationality to be concerned with something that affects Indians? If that were the case, human rights for the world would go out the window. And in the instance of sb, all nationalities are affected - which begs the question even more - what is the relevance of having been to India.

Fortunately you don't have to be a devotee of anything in order to speak out. It is a silly argument really, isn't it. On that basis you would have to work for Monsanto Chemicals in order to speak out against genetically modified seed. Or be a Catholic or Protestant before you could try and bring peace to Ireland or be an Arab or Israeli to speak out for peace in Israel.

You only need to really care about your fellow human beings, whether you know them or not. My payment for this board would be the helping to inform and consequently freeing from the clutches of sb - even one person. That is worth everything. People are so precious -ALL of them. Even sb.
But although all people are precious gifts of God, that does not prevent the rightness of exposing the rapists, thieves and murderers in our world.

Dear Andries, you asked: "What is mukti?"

Liberation from the illusion of duality, and the sense of personal doership.

Fr. John

Anthony Thomas,

If you've never been a devotee, and you'vr never even been to India,... then I wonder,.. IS SOMEONE PAYING YOU TO RUN THIS BOARD ??

And if so whome? And if not, WHY do you do it?

Dear Brother John,
What is mukti?

LOVE

There is no difficulty that enough love - will not conquer;
No disease that enough love - will not heal;
No door that enough love - will not open;
No gulf that enough love - will not bridge;
No wall that enough love - will not throw down;
No sin that enough love - will not redeem .....

It makes no difference -
How deeply seated may be - the trouble,
How hopeless the - outlook,
How muddled the - tangle,
How great the - mistake -

A sufficient realization of love - will dissolve - it all ....

If only you could love - enough,
you would be the - happiest and most powerful being in the world ....


Emmet Fox

Cute, eh! Angel fire mentions the three boons and Brother John says let us hear them. A real play going on!

No, I do not know them and have no desire to know any of the stolen teachings portrayed by the child molester. The doubting devotees reading this board will already know the teachings of their swami, so they won't need them either. Thanks anyway.

Andries
Very noble but why do you think Brother John doubts his guru? Certainly not from anything he has ever posted. He is not middle of the road either, or he wouldn't be here doing the mud slinging.

Angelfire.
I have seen it a few times at least. Someone will have the speech he made in the ashram warning everyone not to listen to the rumours about him.


I can see the tone of the board detiorating into a devotee slinging match, so it ends here.

Anthony
Re 89
you mentioned the Baileys, not I. I see you have ducked that and referred to Glen Meloy. You are the one who raised he issue.

Re 112
Wrong. It is totally regimented - with ONE leader. And heaven help anyone who defies him. His own words are something to the effect that 'they will
never receive swami's love again and will be banished'. Sound like God to you?

I would like to know on what basis or authority you make that statement. I suspect you may be off base with that comment and you are reacting.

I think Fr John is correct, one may come and go, as do I indeed come and go. nor do I stand condemmned.

You quote vaguely 'they will never receive swami's love again and will be banished' .. can you cite your source for this?

Are you aware of the three boons of the Sai Avatar?

Edited by author 08-25-2001 06:32 AM
Dear Brother John,
At least I want to congratulate you with your courage to come to this board. I assume you're a doubting devotee.

I didn't have the courage to look at all the internet stories when I was an ardent devotee and tried to suppress all doubts which I consider now with hindsight psychologically very unhealthy.

In spite of that the 'stories' kept coming to me from reliable sources that I can't reveal here unfortunately.

Kind Regards, Andries.

Brother John re post 101

You said....

........."The Sai organization .........It's not a regimented controlled system of leaders and followers. "...........
Wrong. It is totally regimented - with ONE leader. And heaven help anyone who defies him. His own words are something to the effect that 'they will
never receive swami's love again and will be banished'. Sound like God to you?


.............. It's not a labor union ............
True, the souls he has control over don't have the luxury of a union to help get them out - until they re-unite with the union of God.

..........it matters not "how long" one has been "a devotee"..........
You have either not been reading the posts or have simply tried to find a point to create your message. The comment of 27 years was in relation to a statement that 'not many westerners have been devotees for 20/25/30 years. '

...............All are free to stay or leave at any time.....No attempt to coral or control.......
Free to leave... I think not! There is a total attempt to control. The problem you have is that you are firmly fixed into the physical aspect and not looking at the psychological or energetic aspect of the total control
factor present.

...........It is definitly not a cult. ..........
You are joking! The definition of a cult isn't 'an organisation that one can't leave'. You need to examine what a cult is, because you are in one.


............There are some who have lived in Putaparthi for 40 years and more, and have not learned anything. The passage of time does not, of itself, confer (or imply), Wisdom.........
So, really! He is not all that good at teaching wisdom then!!?


..............Wisdom comes 'By Grace'. It has nothing to do with the passing of time. ........
Not true. If time were not a relevant factor in learning in the physical dimension, it would not exist.


...............In God's eye all are equal, no one is nearer or dearer...............
Thank heavens this is true - in God's eyes. But not in sb's eyes. Somehow the richer one is, the nearer and dearer they become. Even physically I hear they get selected to be brought closer to him - front row stuff.


................If an ignorant person worships a rock, truly believing it to be God, God does not mock him. ..............
But in this case, it would show great wisdom to be worshipping a rock instead!!!!


..........Whether or not it is clear to you, the universe is unfolding as it should..........
It is very clear to me and it is true. Have you considerd that the expose of sb is exactly that - the universe unfolding as it should. And why are you then getting involved in attempts to prevent that unfolding.


...........there are no accidents.
No there aren't - if you really understand what 'no accidents' mean. It means that because the individual makes choices in the moment, nothing happens accidentally.


........Nothing is broken and nothing needs fixing...............
Many hearts are broken, but people are tough and they will recover.


.....................Look on the bright side and enjoy your life and time.
..............
I only look on the bright side and my life is a sucession of joyful moments. And with the Grace of God - may it continue to be so.


.........Nothing improves with the passing of time, (ashes to ashes, dust to dust). ....
Everything improves with the passing of time. One becomes enlightened through the passing of time. No doubt whatsoever.

.........Don't waste time........
Why not?

.................Please do not delete.......
I am delighted to leave your post up. Perhaps you are now not so delighted! At least this time you didn't try the 'I dare you to leave it up'.

Edited by author 08-25-2001 03:43 AM
Dear Brother John

Ref 108

What we were discussing were not opinions or exchange of our messages as " a show"for entertainment. Irrespctive of your religious beliefs or your faith ,blind or otherwise in an invisible God or any "avatar " ( in any form ),the innocent victim of any abuse cannot be asked or advised to bear it with equanmity in name of unity of human soul/god. Surely we need God's blessings to understand this.

REF: 106

I have never come across a more abusive interpretation of the Hindu concept of Atman and God-than from Brother John,
Well he can extend his own interpretation to justify Murder,Rape,Theft- after all according to his own interpretation the doer/rceipient( there is no word " victim"in his vocabulary)are all one -why bother to have any system of law and Punishment -accept all abuse as ordained and bestowed by Divine -sometime God(s)also appear as Avatars and tend to abuse some other humanbeings -and latter must be advised to bear the abuse and the agony/shame in light of "Unity of souls"theory .

Hinduism degenerated precisely because of this type of(mis)interpretation to justify the castesystem and other forms of exploitation. I thought the degeneration stopped after all the effortsof Hindus like Vivekanannda, Gandhi-
it does not appear so and it may well continue into the new millenium with such crude interpretations to justify the abnormal behaviour of any individual howsoever exalted he may be.

Edited by author 08-24-2001 08:45 PM
The Upanashads declare that: All is Brahman and there is nothing other than Brahman.

Therefore my question, "who was molested by whome".

At the phenomenon level we can say "He did this or that to me'. However at the fundamental level of unicity, all is Brahman, (other synonyms: Atma, God,..) therefore it is Brahman, (or God if you wish) that is the doer AND the receiver. It is man's inherent sense of personal doership, that leads him to believe that he is a seperate entity, with power to act on his own, and effect change. In fact God is the only doer and the only recipient. So who was molested by whome??? Wake up and smell the roses.

With all do respects, Yogananda has not shown any evidence in his writing that he was "enlightened". At best he was a brilliant businessman, writer, and teacher, at a time when Americans were still quite innocent in the ways of the east.

Edited by author 08-24-2001 10:42 AM
Re 104 Dear Brother John,

Here is a statement from CESNUR, the leading academic NRM network in Europe, based in Italy with affiliated academics in the USA. Note that they are considered as cult apologetics by some counter cult and anti cult movements.

'Consumers of spiritual goods should not enjoy less protection than consumers in other fields. And when suicide, homicide, child abuse or rape are condoned or promoted, we urge a strong application of criminal laws.'

from http://www.cesnur.org/about.htm#ing


Kind regards, Andries

Marswalker wrote: "In my opinion we can't justify the molestations".

If God is the one primary stuff, all there is, and there is nothing (no-thing) that is NOT God,....

Then pray tell,... WHO got molested by WHO,.. ??

Fr John

Dear Putaipandit & Senior don-ki-hotei & All,
Could you please refrain from using slang? Not because I feel offended but because I have difficulty understanding it. It's not in my dictionary.

I am probably not the only person on this board who never lived in an English speaking country.

Thanks in advance & kind regards

you go boys and girls! let's go out and get mo'windmills!

(actually, my attempt to say- job well doing.damndiditagain)

Anthony Thomas wrote: (ref 89)

"Glen Meloy was a devotee for 27 years, I believe."

The Sai organization is a very loose organization. It's not a regimented controlled system of leaders and followers.

In one's relationship to Sathya Sai Baba, there is no seniority system. It's not a labor union and it matters not "how long" one has been "a devotee". People come and people go. All are free to stay or leave at any time as they see fit. There is no pressure. No attempt to coral or control. It is definitly not a cult. If glen melloy called himself "a devotee", for 27 years, that is glen's self assesment.

There are some who have lived in Putaparthi for 40 years and more, and have not learned anything. The passage of time does not, of itself, confer (or imply), Wisdom.

Wisdom comes 'By Grace'. It has nothing to do with the passing of time.

If glen melloy, was a "devotee" for 27 years, or 127 years, it means Nothing. There is NO SENIORITY. One who has been "a devotee" for 27 years is no different from someone who has been a devotee for 27 days.

In God's eye all are equal, no one is nearer or dearer.

If an ignorant person worships a rock, truly believing it to be God, God does not mock him. God considers only the person's devotion. Seniority it not a consideration.

Relax. Whether or not it is clear to you, the universe is unfolding as it should. It could not be otherwise, there are no accidents. Nothing is broken and nothing needs fixing. Look on the bright side and enjoy your life and time. Nothing improves with the passing of time, (ashes to ashes, dust to dust). Don't waste time.

May God bless you all,
Fr. John

Please do not delete

Interview to group of Journalists from Mumbai
(Publised in The Times Of India - 12th March, 1999)
Parthi Baba has never given an interview to a journalist in the past 25 years. But, recently, He spoke to S Balakrishnan and a group of journalists from Mumbai :
(Reproduced verbatim from The Times Of India - 12th March, 1999)
(1) Q : How do you relate yourself to Saibaba of Shirdi?
     A : This body has not seen him.

AS if we have in this body seen Baba from Shirdi.What are we supposed to assume from this answere?

Dear Anthony,

I forgot to explain in the last post the connection between Benjamin Creme, Maitreya, and SSB. When Bejamin Creme gives lectures, he is known to portray SSB as a lieutentant, so to speak, of Maitreya. I personally heard him do this on a radio show which now has 20 million listeners. This is why I suggested that it may be helpful to know something about Benjamin Creme etc. Thanks!

Love, MarsWalker108

Marswalker
Thanks for the explanation. I understand now.
Sorry. I did miss the point

Edited by author 08-23-2001 03:12 PM
Dear Anthony Thomas,

You are completely misssing the point in my opinion. The website of Ram Das Axle had about 1300 "hits" a day when it was first put up. I had in my e-mail box letters from global coordinators that something needed to be done to refute Ram Das Axles' assertions on his site. There were letters written about the matter such as the UnityInDiversity site. I have only. tried to show that he can't be considered to be credible. In my opinion we can't justify the molestations.

:Love, Dennis Hanisch

Edited by author 08-23-2001 03:11 PM
David V. Barrett's 'The New Believers' book review

I agree with the reviewer, Anthony Campbell, that the book looks well researched. Unfortunately SSB is missing and Benjamine Creme is treated extremely concisely. I guess it will make most believers of any religion questioning her/his own faith.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anthony.campb...iews/r/barrett.html

Re 93, 94 Dear Anthony, Marswalker/Dennis and All,
Imo Marswalker does an important job refuting Ram Das' website. Some devotees really believe it. It was sent to me by 3 or 4 devotees.
Kind regards, Andries

Andries re 92
Thank you for your post. Very appropriate and very helpful.

marswalker re 108
Sorry, I may be missing the point, but I can't see the relevance of us being concerned with what some chanel or guru's opinion is of sb. Many people have opinions about him. It is of no concern of ours, I feel.
You find the 'leaders' that are connected to him (whether they state this or not), will simply be channels for him. We know that. End of story. We really don't need to waste our energy looking at any Ram Dass or Benjamin Creme material - unless, if for some reason, someone wishes to become a devotee of theirs!

I think we need to focus on the job at hand. We really don't want to get into bashing other gurus or so called leaders.

Edited by author 08-23-2001 11:33 AM
Dear All,

In previous posts I talked about Ram Das Awles' website about SSB and his incredible reference in his "Testimony of Modern Day Masters" with respect to Benjamin Creme and Creme's touted avatar and savior, Maitreya. These testimonies are all about Sathya Sai. I pointed out that this definitely indicated that Ram Das Awle is not credible because only a little research on his part would have shown him what sinister character Benjamin Creme has shown himself to be. The website belonging to Ram Das is http://www.saibaba-and-sex-aclearview.com/index2.html.

I indicated in my posts that Sean David Moron interviewed Creme at his home in England in 1990 and promised me tp put the interview and article on his website. The article etitled "The Dark Prophet" is now on Sean's website: http://www.delphiassociates.org: click on "What's New."

Sean David Morton is a well known TV director and producer here in the America who worked with Gene Roddenberry on concepts and ideas which later became part of the Star Trek Universe. His complete personal biography is also on the above site.

We all know that Ram Das Awle is trying to justify the sexual allegations of SSB and Ram Das indicates his belief that SSB wants him to promote this justification by declaring it a means to raise the kundalini. Of course inmy opinion this is nonsense!!

In my view , no matter your take on the SSB issue, you owe it to yourself to know about the sinister Benjamin Creme and touted savior and avatar, Maitreya.

Love, Dennis

Edited by author 08-23-2001 09:17 AM
"The new conditioning of someone who has joined a religious movement has overcome the previous 20 or 30 years of parental and other societal conditioning. Once it is in place, it can be very difficult to shake. The member not only has the new set of beliefs, which he has learnt in such a way that they are internally consistent and completely logical; he has also become bonded to a new set of friends; he has also had a powerful religious experience; he has also learnt to revere and love the prophet or founder of the new religion and his (or more rarely her) teachings; he has also forged a strong new commitment to God."
.....

"What about the others, those who don't convert to another faith? An outsider, perhaps a concerned parent or friend, or a 'professional carer', is asking them to give up the absolute certainty they have, the safe, solid knowledge that they are right, and replace it with ..... what? With the doubts and uncertainties that most people have, who aren't committed believers.
Ir's hardly surprising that many people choose to stay with their movement, even if there are other things about it which might be less than ideal."

From 'Chapter 5 So Hard to say 'Goodbye': Problems of Leaving a Movement', paragraph 'Conditioning and Overcoming it'

...
...


"Once a member does make the decision to leave, and carries it through, there is a further psychological problem that they may have to cope with. Once they are outside, looking back at what they have done, what they have believed, how they have lived for the last several years, from the totally new viewpoint of an ex-member, they might be hit by the amount of time and effort and everything else - the amount of their life - that they have wasted, thrown away, given over to something which (with blesse'd view of somewhat bitter hindsight) was so full of contradictions and idiocies and awfulness. How could they have been so stupid?
The anticipation of such a realization can be part of what makes it so difficult for someone to leave, even if they are desperate to do so."

paragraph 'Fellowship, Institutionalization & Investment'

David V. Barrett "The New Believers, Sects, 'Cults' and Alternative Religions", 2001 UK, ISBN 0 304 35592 5

putaipandit re post 90.
Please re-submit your post without the links!
I am glad you still like Abe's hat!!!

Angelfire
I think you may find there were/are quite a lot. I have a lot of western friends who are avid sb devotees and have been very active in promoting him for the past 20 years.
Glen Meloy was a devotee for 27 years, I believe.

Andries.
It is a common trait in humanity. People have opinions about millions of things they don't understand or take the time to examine for themselves. We tend to accept things that others say, especially those who we deem to be an 'authority'.
Guess it is all part of learning as a humna being.

Edited by author 08-23-2001 04:30 AM
re 84 Hi Hari and All,

It is really amazing how prejudiced, ignorant and simplistic popular Western (esp. Christian) thinking is about Hinduism. Frankly I used to be like that too. When I read some articles I feel vicariously insulted. Of course Hinduism is not easy to explain.

I happen to live in a neighbourhood with quite a lot of Hindus btw. There is even a Hindu primary school nearby.

Why do people have so often an opinion about things they don't understand? May be because admitting ignorance may be threatening to their own opinions.

Kind regards, Andries K.D.

Anthony

Re 52

Brother John
What a cop out! Are you trying to say that all the ex devotees (eg. Baileys,)who have spent 20/25/30 years of their life, written books promoting him, given lectures all over the world spouting the wonders of sb, or spent years devoted to his teachings and given themselves to him 100% - weren't devotees? Come on!

Anthony, David and Faye were not devotees for 20/25/30 years. I suspect they were devotees for six or seven years. Not much longer than that. Very few westerners have been devotees for twenty years or more. Suggest you reconsider your cop out and exaggeration.


Angel

putaipandit
Sorry, it is a little unclear as to who or what your post is referring to.

not to play devils advocate or anything...but i warned you
about those "pro and ex" asatya's a while ago. just lookin'
out. reread the message again- you might wanna reconsider
the "thanks". thanx, poots.

This is a very interesting article. Probably explains why there is a lot of ignorance in the West about Sai Baba-Kundalini-Hindu rituals-Hindu beliefs etc ..

Hinduism is still a huge mystery in the West.

http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/aug/21us1.htm

Hari Sampath

Thank you Carlos

I am re-posting the purpose of this board.

This board is for legitimate discussion between people who have left the clutches of 'sb' and those who have genuine doubts about him and wish to examine the information regarding the many allegations of sb's sexual molesting of young boys. You are encouraged to read the extensive material to be found on the many 'sb expose' websites. A list of these follow.
It is only through reading all the reports with an open mind and a willingness to discover the truth, that you can truly decide whether you follow God or an imposter.

This message board is not for pro 'sb' devotees who are not yet open to looking at these possibilities. There are lots of pro 'sb' boards, discussions and meetings for his devotees.

Should you ever have doubts about him or need helpful advice in how others have handled 'leaving', please return for any assistance we may be able to give you.

If you never have doubts about him, then may God (the real God)bless you and hold you in his care - whenever you choose to allow it. We all wish you well.

All posts and attacks that do not contribute to the goal of this board will be deleted by the board adminstrator.

A LIST OF WEBSITES dedicated to the expose of the real truth about sai baba. This board has been linked to the first website.

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/index.htm


http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach

http://www.sathyasaivictims.com

http://turn.to/the_findings

http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2001/07/25/baba/index.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex-cult-support

http://www.exbaba.nl

http://www.vancouversun.com/newsite/news/010227/5007932.html

http://www.delphi.com/fuzzyhair

http://psg.com/%7Eted/bcskeptics/sbmir/db-book.html

http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/shree_sai_baba.htm

http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/saidebates.htm

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/religion/sai.htm

http://www.sokaren.se/INDEX135.HTML

http://www.ascension2000.com/baba1.htm

http://www.alerte-sai.com/ (French)

http://www.sekty.dominikanie.pl/ Polish

http://www.geocities.com/descubrimientosSB/ Spanish

http://www.multimania.com/tussier/saibaba.htm French

http://home.hetnet.nl/%7Eex-baba/ Netherlands

http://geocities.com/the_sai_critic
Go to 'Summary of The Findings' and one can on the bottom of that page download The Findings version March 24, 2000.

http://www.sekty.net/Data/Materialy/Baba/ebabamenu.php

Ref #73, Suresh,

I don't remember ever reading anything about the day and month Parthi baba said he would die.

good luck anthony,come back soon,having this board its a lot of help for ex and pro sb people. we didnt have this kind of help 30 years ago, thats why his popularity grew so much, but its time for the world to realise who he is.
god bless

Edited by author 08-22-2001 09:39 AM
Hi everyone,

I need to go away from home to work for a while, leaving in just under a week from now. Mostly, I will not be able to post messages or monitor the board during that period. I will have access from time to time.

However, the board will continue to be closely monitored by person/persons who I trust to do a good job keeping out the posts that serve no useful purpose, and leaving in valid posts and posts that, although invalid in themselves, contain comments that can be used to further the expose of sb by answering them (e.g. post 70 in answer to 69).

Let us please keep in mind that we are all fellow travelers in life and that all people do what they do, based on their own beliefs and experience. So, if we can keep a tolerant and loving attitude when we post anything, this board will stay a good place to visit (unlike some boards with slinging matches prevalent).

Try your very best not to react to insults. Count to 10 - or a hundred - or whatever it takes! - and keep in mind that when you react, the spammer has succeeded, not only in making you annoyed, but in getting the board off-topic and making it an unpleasant place to be.

Wow,Anthony,that was really classic poetry,its nice like a fresh breath of air.....

Anthony, even the Salon.com article says otherwise. Do you consider that the wrong direction to look?

I thought there may be some bits in this that were relevant to this topic. Holding a hand and chaining a soul .......hmmmm!

After a while you learn the subtle difference
Between holding a hand and chaining a soul.
And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning
And that company doesn't mean security.
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
And presents aren't promises.
And you begin to accept your defeats
With your head held up and your eyes open,
And with the grace of an adult
Not the grief of a child.
And you learn to build all your roads on today
Because tomorrows ground is too uncertain
For your plans.
After a while you learn that even sunshine
Burns if you get too much.
So plant your own garden and decorate your own soul
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you will learn that you can endure
That you are really special
And that you really do have worth.
So live to learn and love yourself
In doing so, you will learn to live.

Anon

Suresh re 72
Yes, some people just like titles! An attempt to intimidate.

R Check 74
Because his time has come. 'From all accounts' perhaps you aren't looking in the right direction.

Anthony, what makes you so sure he s definitely going under this time? From all accounts it looks otherwise.

Dear All

Can anyone tell me ,has Parthi Baba ever disclosed the Day,Month in the Year 2022,that he would DIE.

Looks like the good doctor has now become the good brother,Amen.

David Paul, are you the same David who posted one message about abuse a long time ago on this board, and then didn't post anything else? I'm wondering because there is one short paragraph from this board by a "David" on the Testimonies page of Sunrise.

Reality Check re 62
You ask 'What if his influence continues to grow'

Answer: 'God help the world!!'

Fortunately, it won't grow. He is definetely going under this time.

re 69
Why the hospitals? My guess is that he has to be seen to be doing something good, someplace. I cannot tell you how many people I know that approved of him purely because they heard he did the water thing and opened a hospital. That was all they'd heard he'd done, but that seemed to be enough to convince them he must be a 'good' person. Unfortunately, some people are not familar with common tactics such as this - as used by politicians, big business, etc. everyday of our lives.
 
Tony re post 68
Could you make your posts a little easier to read perhaps? After a post goes up we all get some time to edit it ('edit' on right hand side). You could fix all the lines that only have one word on them and make it more compact. It may also pay to edit out anything unnecessary, to encourage people to read it. Thanks

Andries, that Krishna is a converted christian. If SB has no compassion then why all these schools and hospitals? Why does he not retire?

If it is so easy to know the day of one's death then why is no one else knowing it?

This could explain why so many have health problems from the time they
begin to
doubt their leaders ..........


August 13, 2001

Study Suggests Shaken Faith Can Worsen Poor Health
By ERICA GOODE

eligion and good health go hand in hand. Or so some researchers have
asserted in
studies over the last half decade, saying that people who attend church
regularly, pray or are otherwise involved in religious activities enjoy
longer
lives and other positive health benefits.

But in a study published today, researchers contend that some forms of
religious
anxiety may in fact increase the risk of death among people who are
ill.

The researchers, who surveyed 596 elderly hospitalized patients in
1996, found
that those who said they "wondered whether God had abandoned me,"
"questioned
God's love for me" or "decided the devil made this happen" were more
likely two
years later to have died than patients who did not endorse such
statements. The
patients in the study were almost exclusively Christian, with the
majority
representing conservative or mainline Protestant denominations.

"We know from quite a bit of research that religion can be a potent
resource,"
said Dr. Kenneth I. Pargament, a professor of psychology at Bowling
Green
University in Ohio and the lead author of the study, which appears in
Archives
of Internal Medicine.

"But it's also clear that religion has a darker side," Dr. Pargament
said. "It
can be a source of solutions but it can also be a source of problems.
This study
helps lend some balance to the whole field."

Other experts, however, expressed skepticism about the study's
findings. They
noted that the number of subjects in the study was small and that the
greater
number of deaths among patients who endorsed items representative of
religious
struggle might be explained in other ways.

Dr. Pargament agreed that the findings had not yet been confirmed by
other
researchers, but he said other studies had found that internal struggle
over
religious beliefs was associated with poorer health. And he cautioned
that
people should not conclude that if they were angry at God, they would
die.

In many religious traditions struggle is portrayed as a prelude to
growth, Dr.
Pargament said.

"From Moses to Jesus to Buddha, you see religious figures going through
dark
nights of the soul and through that process they come out steeled and
strengthened," he said.

But he said the study suggests that some people appeared unable to
resolve their
feelings of anger, guilt or anxiety and that their health might have
suffered as
a result.

Dr. Harold G. Koenig, a professor of psychiatry and medicine at Duke
University
Medical Center and another author of the study, said, "It's normal to
ask God,
`Why is this happening to me? Did I do something wrong? Why aren't you
responding to my prayers?' "

"All these are normal feelings but people work through them usually,
and people
who can't, who get stuck there, they are going to have worse health
outcomes,"
Dr. Koenig said.

But Dr. David Freedman, a professor of statistics at the University of
California at Berkeley, who has worked extensively in epidemiology,
said he
doubted much could be concluded about the effects of religious struggle
on the
basis of the study's findings.

"With a tiny effect like this, you have to be very cautious about
bias," Dr.
Freedman said.

He noted that the increase in risk reported by the researchers was tiny
in
comparison with that produced by other known health risks, like
smoking, or by
demographic differences, like age and race.

What he found particularly troubling, Dr. Freedman said, was that so
many
subjects could not be found when the researchers followed up, because a
few more
deaths among the patients who did not express negative views would have
shifted
the results in the other direction. Of the patients in the original
sample, 152
could not be located at the two-year follow-up.

Dr. Pargament conceded that it would have been nice to know more about
these
people, but he said the findings held up even when the number of lost
patients
was taken into account through statistical adjustments.

Dr. Bruce S. Rabin, medical director of the University of Pittsburgh
Medical
Center's Health Enhancement Program, said that coping styles and
spirituality
clearly played a role in health and longevity, and said that the study
served
"to confirm and suggest that there is a mind-body connection."

But because so little was known about the patients' histories and how
they
lived, Dr. Rabin added, the link between their religious behavior and
the
increased risk of death was less certain.

"I don't think when you look at an angry population like this that one
can say
it's just because of their religious behavior," he said.


        "Truth may be stretched, but cannot be broken, and always gets above
                        falsehood, as oil does above water"
        - Miguel Cervantes

Saishoot
I understand you want to try and make an impression, but could you please desist from using capitals. There has always been a policy on this board not to post all in caps. Thank you.

Kyra re 57
I agree totally with your logic. I only mentioned it because your message was directed to Brother John and he appears to be content with his guru master.

I agree that love, and not anger, is the way to handle most things in life. Although anger has its place, it is a long time since I have found it necessary - and I don't mind at all sounding like a wimp!
I can understand the attackers being angry. In fact, I expect it to some degree. It is part of the energy that sb places around his devotees. I have covered the aspect of anger in my write up 'A very clever set up' on 'Inner planes' section - Sunrise website.

Edited by author 08-21-2001 10:24 AM
SAISHOOT, SPEAKS THE TRUTH...

Anthony, is like the kid who says: It's my basball, play by my rules or I'm gonna take my ball and go home!

SAISHOOT: Why not start a new discussion board that will be uncensored except for the likes of Tony O'cleary and the vulgarians. Call it the "Sai Baba Free Speach Board", and don't let Anthony post a single word! ;-) DO it!!

REPLY TO ANTHONY;

YOU AS AN ADMINISTRATOR CONVENIENTLY SENSOR MOST REPLIES BY THE DEVOTEES AND PROPAGATE YOUR COMRADES CRY ENDLESSLY.

YOU INTERPRET MESSAGES ACCORDING TO YOUR WHIMS AND FANCIES AD REPLY ACCORDINGLY. YOUR INTENTIONS AREN'T GENUINE.

Ref 62 Dear Reality Check,

You wrote: << Andries wrote: "What if SSB dies prematurely?" What if he does not? What if his influence continues to grow? >>

Please take into account that SSB has broken many promises including the claims about gaining worldwide recognition. Probably he and his coterie don't care at all of the devastation they have caused to so many people who put their full faith in him. Probably SSB only cares about his sex life.

Note that the intimate, long time devotee, M. Krishna who defected in the 1950's said to Erlendur Haraldsson that SSB 'HAS NO COMPASSION' as described in the largerly positive book about SSB called 'Miracles Are My Visiting Cards'.

Btw it is not that unusual that a person knows his death date in advance.

Kind regards, Andries K.D.

Andries wrote:
"What if SSB dies prematurely?"

What if he does not? What if his influence continues to grow?

Dear Brother John:- and all those who insist the are no ex devotees, I would like to point out that there are indeed many ex-devotees of which I am one and am also a recipient of one of SSB's oilings of which I wrote to India today and also was posted on keenans site whilst it was running, my point is and always was If the org lies that the oilings take place what else are they prepared to lie about i.e sexual abuse, murders both in and around the ashram etc. These boards are set up for those who wish to enter intelligent debate and for those who wish to heal in the wake of this evil manipulative atrocity called Sai Baba!!

Edited by author 08-21-2001 06:30 AM
Ref 59
Dear Bother John,

'.... Sexual abuse and abuse of power are the hallmarks of exploitive cult leaders. Ironically, some innocent people in the groups never suspect anything is wrong; they may even leave before getting hurt, but it is also painful to realize when the leader had clay feet. '

from http://www.surrealist.org/norimuster/cultsurvivor.html Ex-Iskcon/Hare Krishna

Yes, I agree that it will not end in a nightmare for all devotees. To prevent getting hurt it's better to find the truth now than later imo. You may regret in future having suppressed your doubts just as I regret having done this myself now. The longer and stronger you attach yourself to SSB the more you will get hurt most probably.

What if SSB dies prematurely?

You wrote
 <<Life is impersonal, if you take it personally you suffer. >>
My questions. What do you mean? How can you not take life personally?

Thanks in advance and Kind Regards, Andries

Andries, you said: "If feel very sorry for all people who got deeply involved in this attractive illusion that ended in a nightmare".

That is Your movie, inside of Your heard. At Prasanthi Nilayam the crowds continue to INCREASE, and life goes on as ever, albeit without you. For YOU it has ended in a nightmare. For millions of others nothing had ended, and there is no nightmare. Life is impersonal, if you take it personally you suffer.

(I am definitly Not screaming for help, but thanks fop the chuckle! ;-)

Edited by author 08-21-2001 04:32 AM
Ref 51, 55
Dear Brother John,

I can prove that I was a devotee. I used to be the seva coordinator. See http://www.sathyasai.nl/ Press on centra and then on Amsterdam 3.
I was the only candidate when I was elected. It is my experience that many ex-devotees leave quietly because they are simply not interested

The people who write on these messageboards were mostly ardent devotees who feel very disappointed. I am one of them. If you're a Catholic you may have noticed that Saint Augustine in his 'Confessions' kept fulminating against the sect of the Manicheism of which he used to be a member before he became a Catholic. Same psychological mechanism. I couldn't understand why when I first read his 'Confessions' and I thought he was a fanatic. Now I understand him completely.

Jega Jagadeeshan wrote
'If one asks me (i.e. Jega), who will be the one who will bend and break at the first adverse winds of allegations and filth: it will
be those who have remained in the periphery of the organization and those who have lived on the periphery of the Sai message.
Also those who expect something from Sai, those who want His constant personal physical attention, those who live constantly
on the margin of Sai's physical miracles, those who have not lived the message of Sai through Service for mankind and selfless
love for all - these are the potential drop-outs!!'
See http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/Dvjaglet.htm

Now ask yourself if Jega Jagadeeshan wrote the truth after thorough investigation or speculated about things he didn't understand.

I really wish it was all the 'Big Detractor Conspiracy' but most unfortunately it's not.

If feel very sorry for all people who got deeply involved in this attractive illusion that ended in a nightmare.

Kind regards, Andries K.D.

AndriesKrugersDagneaux@hetnet.nl

Dear Anthony,

I agree with you that for the most part irrational negative posters are in it only to be disruptive. BJ may well fit into this category. What I'm banking on is that out of the majority of sucked-in devotee posters there are a few who really ARE screaming for help. To that end I'll reply to anger with love. There, now don't I sound like some pompous wannabe saintly jerk...don't worry; I have a less than gentle demeanor at times, but I won't put it on the board :)

Love, Kyra

Reality check re 54
I didn't say he succeeds every time, (thank heavens) but his success rate is pretty good. By the time he has finished manifesting his trinkets and ash and telling people what they really long to believe - that God is here on earth to protect them and everyone else, that they can relax because he will take care of their whole life for them - and then he completes that by appearing astrally to thousands of them - convincing many (who perhaps haven't come across this before) that because he can do such a thing, he must be God.

Kyra
Thank you for the love. Indeed they have mine also, although they probably don't believe that. I don't think he has any doubts at all. Most of the people who post such comments, simply wish to try and disrupt his dissenters.

Dear Brother John,

Listen to your Inner Self and hear the aching scream for help you're making. Why would you be posting here if you weren't having nagging doubts about the validity of your devotion to your chosen outer teacher? Search your heart, brother, and don't reactively justify your devotion by saying cruel things to others. Is this what Sai Baba teaches in hos words and writings?

Big hugs, heart brother.

Love, Kyra

Anthony wrote:
"why does he make SO SURE that no-one picks up on it and follows him instead."

How does he make sure no one picks up on it?

Edited by author 08-21-2001 01:14 AM
Terrie re 49
I see. It is good for me to have a greater understanding of what is involved in the recovery process. If,as you say, that is what all those people believe in, then it would be easy to see that having lost one guru, they would immediately look around for the next one to lead them. I guess it is asking a lot to advise people to fully recover first from the trauma of seeing the truth of what they saw as an icon - and then to see if perhaps they need to keep going to Source via someone else.

Gurus have been a great asset in leading the way for a long time. Great words of wisdom have been spoken over and over again, thru the ages. Most of these have always said 'the power and divine is found within you' - 'God is within you'. Although they keep saying it, many choose to keep following.

Even sb says 'you are also God'. The trouble is he says it because he is not stupid. He knows he has to give a lot of truth in his utterings or no-one will follow him. However, he makes sure his 'you are also God' doesn't get taken 'on board' by people, by entering into that equation a thousand other statements about how divine he really is, how he was Jesus, etc. that he has all these wonderful powers, ash, and allowing the pictures of him without saying you don't need a picture of me - for you are also god, and so on.

I wonder if anyone ever walks away from him, thinking "Wow, I am divine also. I can just be myself" and never gives him another thought again. After all, they have just been told they are the same as him, so if this was really the message he wanted to get across - why does he make SO SURE that no-one picks up on it and follows him instead.

Perhaps a time has come to make our connection direct to God, no matter what religion or guru or sect we are with. We can still be a part of that, if it feels right for us - but not to give ourselves 'lock stock and barrel' to that organisation - but keep a pure line direct to Souce instead.

Re your post 49
Good idea. I think it is actually an already established cult recovery area and has its own discussion board (with fully vetted entry). A worthwhile venture I am sure. I just hope that when people join other discussion groups, they still keep some time for this one. It is here and similar boards that deal specifically with the truth about sb, that I feel is needed at this stage. There is, of course, great benefit to be had in seeing the similarities of sb and other sect followings - but first the doubters need to have a place where they can find answers to whether he is a god or a molestor. Perhaps the time comes later to read the traumas of people who have left other sects and religions. For some, perhaps it is now. People know what they need.
By the way, I think everyone is intuitive - if they find the quiet and listen to the inner self. But you do have to be still. The trouble is we all rush around filling up our life with activities and never give time to ourself.


Sunrise
I think the section you have appropriately titled 'Words of Hope: How Ex-Devotees Fill the Void' will be invaluable to many people. My prayer is that lots of people contribute to it.

Suresh
How many time in life are we all hoodwinked, by the local con man doing house repairs, the business deal that isn't what it claims to be, the partner that isn't! It is all just a learning. We grow wiser (hopefully) through all these things - and we resolve to look a little closer next time.

Brother John
What a cop out! Are you trying to say that all the ex devotees (eg. Baileys,)who have spent 20/25/30 years of their life, written books promoting him, given lectures all over the world spouting the wonders of sb, or spent years devoted to his teachings and given themselves to him 100% - weren't devotees? Come on!

Re board - are you referring to the rabble of the yahoo boards perhaps? This board will go right on keeping out the rubbish. You can bank on it - despite your attempts to stir up trouble.

        ----- THE PROBLEM WITH "EX" DEVOTEES -----

The problem with EX devotees is simply that there aren't any. Many who bolted early on have returned to the fold. And those who call themselves EX devotees were really never devotees to begin with. A person can adopt any handle they wish, e.g. devotee, psychic, fortune teller, moderator.
That doesn't mean anything. Does purchasing a typewriter confer on one the status of being a "writer". Of course not how silly. The real problem for you muck rakers, it the simple fact that there are no ex devotees.

I dare you to leave this one up Anthony, just for the sake of debate. Also, you should know that other boards are starting up by people who dislike your heavy handed control-freak obcession with censorship, and that is where the action is now, not here.

Dear Anthony

I have always been a considerate guy respecting other peoples point of view even if they are diametrically oppsite to mine.So i just used some common sense instead of ego coming into our internet wavelength.Though of course Parthi Baba would not like anybody to indulge in the internet rather concentrate on the inner net.He and his ideas are so contradictory to his actions as well as his devotees actions,how was i hoodwinked?

Edited by author 08-20-2001 11:39 PM
Ref #47, C K Miller,

Since your topic is very relevant to the purpose of this board, I think the thoughts of ex-devotees can be posted here. You can copy anything from the board for your new site. May your site be blessed and helpful to all! I hope you'll join the discussion here sometimes.

Ref #48:
Anthony, the problem with some ex-devotees is that they aren't willing to relinquish the idea of a guru. It isn't so much that they want someone to lean on or worship as it is the Indian idea of the Guru being a spirit-soul who has conquered ego and merged with Divinity. Therefore the true Guru is a channel for the pure energy and light of God. He knows how to guide his/her disciples in their own paths.

As an ex-devotee, and having spoken with other ex-devotees, one of our major problems is the lack of trust in our own intuition, or just plain not seeming to have any intuition at all! And somehow our heart energy was affected. We need to learn devotion (bhakti) all over again.

Ref #46, Andries,
Wonderful Scottish proverb there! And very true.

Suresh
Excellent idea and thank you for your consideration in discussing other areas on another board. It is hard for all of us to keep to the topic at hand, because so many other interesting points are made. It is certainly tough for me, as I love getting off into the why's and wherefores! I have decided to be a bit tougher with myself and the board as I realise that if someone is coming here in distress about allegations of their guru, that is what they want to find out about and may not want to wade through irrelevant material.

Not that this means we can't comment on other things but let us keep to those that have a relevance to sb and let us keep it short.
 
I would ask however, for everyone reading this board to realise that some people also pretend to be ex-devotees and post links to other sites. They figure this can help distract people from this board by getting them caught up in lengthy discussions elsewhere.

Andries 42
Excellent points

Terrie 40
Perhaps until an ex devotee has cleared themselves sufficiently from their attachment to sb and is in a clear enough space to better identify the fake from the false, it could be wiser not to align with any masters and just stick with the Source/Creator in prayers and thoughts.

To any or all EX members of any cult from any country!
I am very interested in knowing your personal thoughts about how things were for you when leaving the cult world!
If you would not mind, I am building a website for all ex-members as a help page and would like to post your thoughts on my website-
Please send your ideas and comments and or piece of poetry to Vasunshine1975@aol.com
Thankyou for your interest and good will in your healing--It will come!

ck

Old Scotish proverb 'Even the devil can quote scriptures'

Dear Terrie
Refer your query #40, i have posted my opinion,please do take time to read.
http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/xGc5TzRrJmP7

Well said Suresh about so-called western masters. The blind leading the blind indeed.

Edited by author 08-20-2001 05:56 PM
Just read an article by Dutch-Surinam journalist Anil Ramdas in today's newspaper with a very good reputation (NRC Handelsblad) that the official wages of Indian MPs are less than $100 per month. Yet they live in luxury.

May be this explains why SSB and his coterie who may be aware of the sexual abuse have escaped litigation so far.

Dear All,
It is clear that hardly any rational discussion is possible with SSB devotees (and many followers of other religions and cults too btw).

The reason is of course that there is a huge wish to continue to believe. Unless a devotee does some painful introspection and becomes aware of this wish it is almost senseless to start a discussion imo.

May be when talking to a devotee it makes more sense to refer to general psychological principles like cognitive dissonance instead of trying to start a futile discussion.

Here is another link that may give the devotee some insight in his own psyche. It has most probably already been posted some time ago but I take the liberty to re-post it because I found it very good.

"The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable. How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--indeed, clings to it all the harder? "
  --M. Lamar Keene

from http://www.geocities.com/p_holbach/eng/trueb_e.htm

Kind Regards, Andries K.D.

With reference to #40,Terrie
When the inner call is genuine,you will automatically find your Guru.As for defining a Guru,i confess,i cannot post the answeres here,as it would amount to be off topic ,but then i created another topic http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/xGc5TzRrJmP7
wherein ,i think we can discuss certain matters other than Parthi Baba.

Edited by author 08-20-2001 03:55 PM
Ref #39, Suresh,

Some of us who were ssb devotees were linked to a true master before becoming devotees. For some of us following an (inner) master is still our path. How would you advise ex-devotees who still feel comfortable with the idea of a master...how can they tell a fake, egocentric "master" from a real one? A real master might be defined as one who has merged with God in full samadhi and has volunteered to be here on earth to help others.

Through our experience, ex-devotees like Marswalker and myself find Yogananda and his line to be true inner gurus, and we have taken up the meditation techniques taught by his organization. This was a continuation of the time "before sb" for us. Long ago we were put off by the outer organization, which is one reason we were caught by sb.

I just spoke recently with an ex-devotee who felt that she had finally found true masters in the I AM organization. So she is going to study with that organization.

How would she know about the nature of those masters?

There are many so called masters in the West and in the world, who although immersed in the ignorance of true spirituality, yet in the pride of their hearts, profess to know everything in matters spiritual. They do not stop there, but offer to shoulder others in the spiritual quest. Result is one blind leading the other and both fall in to the ditch.

Dear Anthony
I anticipated your move,its your board,you are welcome to your decision.

Suresh re 35
Sorry, but I really need to keep to the purpose of this board.

I have explained already that we do not wish to lead people to other groups or religions. If they wish to find out about these things, they are able to find them. If I allow links to be given to a 'How to Become a Hindu' website, then I would need to allow everyone else to promote their own religion.

Please repost without the link.

Re 33.
Do you have a purpose in posting here, other than to be sarcastic?
As you have no doubts about your guru, I wonder why are you here defying his wishes for his devotees not to have anything to do with the internet.
Why not go in peace and love, along the way you have chosen, with all our good wishes. And as we do, please allow people the right to seek their own truth.

 "Brother John - a real name no doubt!!"

As real as "Anthony Thomas".

Please tell me about your firsthand experiance with Sathya Sai Baba. I'm very interested, in hearing about your experience, because you apparently are the one who 'moderates' this board, therefor one would expect you to be an expert of sorts. Pray do tell....

--Fr. John

Edited by author 08-20-2001 04:01 AM
The Psychology Of Sprititual Sects, Religions

http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html

Kind regards, Andries Krugers Dagneaux (my real name btw)

Brother John - a real name no doubt!!
You have no idea how many people read this board. But it is an irrelevant point. This board is a mere fraction of the many message exchanges going on. It is the websites, newspapers, word of mouth and hard copy of The Findings and other related expose material, that is reaching people.
Plenty of first hand experience around. Mine is.

Thanks for everybody's information about colors!

Edited by author 08-19-2001 08:38 PM
I count only six people posting to this board. That's not what I would call a global uprising. They don't use their real names, so their credibility is diminished.

Suggestion: Use real names. Speak only of first hand experience. Avoid speculation, hearsay, and rumor. Otherwise how can we be taken seriously?

Edited by author 08-19-2001 08:23 PM
Ref #25:
Sparrow, there's a difference betweent the red-orange that sb wears and the pale orange-toward yellow that is the usual sanyasi color. The color Parti baba has chosen for his robe is unique in India. The only clothing color that appraches it in India is sari colors of the ladies.

Tal Brooke says in his book that sb's bedroom was all bright red when he saw it.

Edited by author 08-19-2001 05:04 PM
A Sparrow,
you are quite right in your interpretation as Sexual energy,and that chakra after the Mooladhara,helps in ones orientation towards raising ones self to their higher self.Most of the sanyasis indulge in sex,but India being a closed knit society,its mostly kept a secret.In fact women feel Honored,and in some cases lead to pregnancy too.Biologically its an impossibility for the sanyasis not to have sex,and if they don't,then eventually end up like many of the Sadhus that you find in Northern India,sitting stark naked and mumbling some unknown chant with vibhuthi smeared all over their bodies.But belive me they possess extraordinary powers and can beat Parthi Baba hollow in his game.

Anthony
I am a ex-devotee,and i know the pangs,and the feeling of having wasted good number of years to some man,who is nothing but a fraud however benevolent but a fraud neverthless.So i try to reason it out saying because of Parthi Baba,today i am enlightend about the true god and there is 100,000 times more bhakthi and ananda in my life.So in a way i am thankful to my True God who made me realise the better things in life."Red" color no doubt plays a significant role in almost every sphere of daily life.In the Indian women,the sindoor or kumkuma,which is mainly powdered turmeric etc red in color,is applied in the center of the forehead,sometimes applied in the parting of the hair in the crown of the head.The idea behind is ,its symbolic for people in particular Males to understand that the lady is married and she belongs to another man,and not harbour thoughts of coveting her.Sceintifically,in the spectrum of colors,red is the least deviated,thats why you see Red as the firt stop sign followed by amber and then green.The holy saints of Shringeri,Udupi,Tumkur,Kanchi,Kalady,Puri,Dwaraka,Kashmir, when i had the oppurtunity to visit them in their surroundings i could see a "yellow Light" only,but with Parthi Baba it always was Black.Black is a color which absorbs everything under the sun and has its own potency.

Suresh
May I comment on a couple of things. The colour red in an aura could also be sexual passion. There would be very few people who would have an aura of complete light, I think. I haven't run across it yet.

Re the point you made, people "should go back to their own religion" after they leave sb.
I wouldn't personally recommend this as an option, although it may well turn out to be the right action for some people. I think people need to look at where they are now in this new moment and step out from there to what feels right NOW.

I haven't been a devotee, so I am not going to have the understanding that ex-devotees have about leaving, but I have a few thoughts. Perhaps others can add to these.

To people leaving sb, I would say -

"First of all, take time in your life for yourself. Time to be silent and still. No pressures. Don't fill your days up so there is no time left for you. This is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Take however long it takes for you.

Let go of any anger you may have toward him and to yourself.

Don't let yourself hate him. Love is the answer, regardless of people's actions. We don't have to stoop low enough to hate anyone. If we do, we are in the same band as them - heavy.

Let go of any fear that 'you may really be leaving God and that you perhaps just didn't understand what he was really doing.' (He is NOT God - and we know what he is really doing!)

Trust yourself. You are capable of standing alone -without a guru or the support of your devotee friends. You will make new friends. Life goes on. Eventually they will all leave him anyway!

Bring light into your life. Make your environment peaceful. Do fun things. Life is for living.

Try and let go to ideas that come up like 'I was stupid - I have wasted all these years - how could I have been so deceived.'
There is learning and growth in absolutely everything and who says it was wrong that you were there. I think I would trust myself more and realise we are not stupid. You wouldn't have been there if it wasn't going to benefit you in some way. I expect devotees have had many magical and inspirational moments and grown stronger through many facets including sharing an increased understanding of love and devotion with fellow devotees. You are bound to find you have learnt a lot and grown a better person for it all. Perhaps it is just that now it is time to move on to discover new things. Perhaps to find that divine truth lies within and we are our own connection to Source.

Regarding what you said about the color red in post # 21, Suresh; raju's garb is orange, and that is the color associated with the 2nd, or sexual chakra. I think most sanyasi's wear orange, and that struck me as strange even in my days as a devotee, since don't most of them profess to be celebate? I wonder how many really are, and why they would make that claim if they're not. After all, in America most clergy-people are not expected to be.

Anyone have any ideas or insights? Especially Indians?

With ref #18 of Anthony
People who have been following Parthi Baba and after realising that he is nothing but a FRAUD,should go back to their own religion that they had been initiated to start with.Alternatively go to the source of Parthi Baba power,namely the Baba from Shirdi,and pray to him to overcome this mans influence on your sadhanas.Of course this is only a suggestion,ultimately each one has to find that ultimate answere by themselves.

Dear Terrie
We say in our culture,you must experiance sweet & sour in life,to realise how noble your birth is.This chance to be born as a human being comes to one after long process of being born as various species.I think in my opinion its perfectly justified to have followed Parthi Baba otherwise we would not have known the "True Worth" of the true god.Something similar to,unless the Kauravas were not there how would the Pandavas shown their superior goodness.Unless evil is present then only GOOD can prevail over it and vanquish it.Therefore Parthi Baba is required in the scheme of life for GOOD SUPERIOR forces to vanquish him.We have passed the test.

Edited by author 08-19-2001 02:47 PM
Btw about 2 months ago I read a book by Miss Helena Klitsie "Liefde's Logica/The Logic of Love" who travelled around extensively in India and visited many gurus, lamas and so forth. She wrote that she met a German young man who was sexually approached by SSB.

She writes a lot more of interesting stories about SSB. Mixed positive and negative. Also very interesting thoughts about religion and philosophy in general.

ISBN 90-417-0241-5 for people who can read Dutch.
The book is sold in the Netherlands' best known supermarket.

I think that more publicity is unnecessary here.

The ideal auric field of course is one of light. It is only when light is splintered that we get a spectrum of colors. Take anger for instance. We say, “He sees red,” when someone is angry. What actually happens is that the frequency of the red color is produced by the emotion of anger. In the auric field, when someone is angry, if it is a temporary outburst of anger, there is a spurt of red. Now take the dress of Parthi Baba,made out of SILK,RED in color.Totally ANger personified.His very in born attitude is ANGER.Most sanyasis wear cotton material,orange in color.But then we now know Parthi Baba is no sanyasi but is acting like one,and a pretend Avatar.

Edited by author 08-19-2001 02:23 PM
Ref #19
It isn't difficult at all to see sb as an ant underfoot. The problem is that many of us seem to be out of touch with our hearts and intuition. I keep asking myself, "How could I have been deluded for so long? My prayer was always, "Thy Will Be Done." (meaning God, not sb) Was following the false god somehow the will of God?? I simply hit a blank wall here.

It's easy to say, "Find God within," but not so easy to do.

Here's the old board address, if anyone wants to read all of Anthony's reply to Aura or other comments on this topic.
http://www.quicktopic.com/7/H/uVTiRX8McBie

Edited by author 08-19-2001 02:14 PM
I'd like to see more discussion on Aura's post from the old board (#1618). Anthony replied to this post in #1619, but the discussion is far from finished. Here is Auru's post:
------------------------------------

Anthony, you said:"I thought I was aware of the scale of anguish they must go through, but I see it is greater than I thought. I had thought most of the difficulty would be in trying to get out of his energy field. I knew people would also have to contend with the betrayal, feeling stupid, leaving a supportive group with a common bond, losing many friends, losing the physical face of God, the fear that maybe you really are leaving God and being damned forever, and so on."
How does one even begin to get out of his energy field after 10, 15 0r 20 years? It's frightening, the task ahead!Where does one even begin, after placing ones trust entirely on one person in this entire world and thinking of him as God? It is scary, to say the least.
----------------------------------------End of Aura's post----------

Here is part of Anthony's reply:
"Possibly the first thing is to realise is the action of leaving is not bad in any way. People are leaving a physical identity and going straight to God/Source/Creator instead.

A true God would naturally always be in agreement with going direct to Source/God/Creator. Even if God happened to be incarnated, from 'his' point of view there would be no difference whatsoever is making our divine connection in a straight line to the source of creation- instead of via an incarnated 'source of creation.'

We need to take our power back and take responsibility for our own lives -from the perspective of being part of the Creator consciousness and make a pure universal connection again to the divine source of the universe - however each person sees that.

Early on, while the whole thing is being processed and people are trying to get out of his energy, I think it is a good idea to realise there is an energy link to him via the use of his name, ash, books and picture.

Personally, I would suggest getting rid of the lot and not to just put it in a drawer. And don't use his name. Find another name, preferably not giving him any reverence or power, if you have to discuss him. And while discussing him, stay detached and don't make any connection to him.

This is not for anyone to have fear of him, for truly he is nothing - unless he can incite the fear of the wrath of God into you. Light is senior to everything. With a pure intention of light in your heart, he is as an ant underfoot. Totally powerless. NOTHING IS STRONGER THAN LIGHT and in that light, we are invincible."
------------------End of Anthonhy's quote----------------

Kyra
Thanks for the good wishes.

Suresh
Hari is never far away.

To everyone,
If you have any helpful stories or tips on how you recovered after leaving sb,it would be great if you could send these posts to the sunrise website. It would really help other devotees who are going through the trauma of leaving. Even small things can help a lot.

Hello Folks
Good to see you all here in the new board.Anthony nice to see some spammers kicked out,boy are they dense to keep coming and posting here.What is amazing is Parthi Baba is such a cunning,crafty,lecherous ole man who knows very well to take care of himself as he clearly proved in june 1993,yet these moronic devotees of Parthi Baba take it upon themselves to defend his actions.

About the anti-christ posting,i think Hari very nicely explained it in one his posts as well as about Jesus Christ.Any idea whats happened to him?There is always a lull before a storm,i hope some nice expose comes soon.

Edited by author 08-19-2001 09:10 AM
Welcome to the board, Kyra, and thanks for posting the first message! Anthony, I got to this board from Sunrise (main links page), so that link is working now. Let's hope that this board carries through with the hope and encouragement expressed by both of you.

To the spammer who is posting the long sb propaganda discourses.

I just thought you would like to know that this new board is set up differently.
It now takes less than a second for me to delete the lot.

It wasn't difficult before, but now it's just sooooooooooo easy. :)- :)- :)-

A note to everyone.

The old message board is still up, but no longer accepting new posts.
( http://www.quicktopic.com/7/H/uVTiRX8McBie )

People are still able to see some past posts on that board if they wish, by looking at the previous pages.

However, all the previous posts from this board from its inception to August 19th
2001 will be posted for viewing purposes up on the website:
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/discussion.htm

If you should ever have any difficulty accessing this new message board or it
fails in any way, requiring a new board to be established - please go to website:
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/discussion.htm
where it will list a new topic board url.

Hello everyone

I would like to welcome you all to the new board.

May it help bring understanding, compassion, tolerance and love - as together, we seek the real truth about sai baba.

Dear all,

For an auspicious start to the new board!!!!

Love, Kyra

Testing new board starting August 19th 2001