It's not the rural carriers fault. Try to keep that in mind. Go back to the root cause.

But as you can see I am a very anal person and I have no backbone even though I am a male.

Edited by author 11-21-2009 08:14 AM
clerk dude: Thank you, all I want is to understand how this happened. You state that an APWU represented individual can not bargin with mgt. I did. When we did the LCA I didn't know that it would be binding. If this agreement is binding then any clerk can make an agreement with mgt. and it too should be binding, yes? Local president told me that this would be a national presidence setting case. I do believe it was.

Why is this agreement binding? Don't tell me "because you signed it".

X-stew: "Simple answer is a member can't because PO agrees in contract APWU is the 'exclusive' rep a clerk can have. Member can't step outside contract and deal directly with Mgt and have it be valid. When you break and ignore the contract, you can't later use contract to enforce that deal. Like going to court to enforce a reneged drug deal, it's a non-starter." My point! You CAN'T ENFORCE THE DEAL! I can't enforce it, mgt. shouldn't be able to enforce it, no one should be able to enforce it! You sure your an ex steward? I think that there aint much diference between you and a hundred year old outhouse.

So this was your original message: /m13058

Are you here for information to try to get your job back?

Ray and clerk dude /m13090 & /m13079 -- maybe this will help:

M-00937 Pre-arb, 1974, RA-73-1740,
The Postal Service acknowledges its obligation under Section 9(a) of the National Labor Relations Act, which provides in part: "That any individual employee ... shall have the right at any time to present grievances to (his) employer and to have such grievances adjusted, without the intervention of the bargaining representative, as long as the adjustment is not inconsistent with the terms of a collective bargaining contract or agreement then in effect: Provided further, that the bargaining representative has been given the opportunity to be present at such adjustment."

Seems to me the last line is the key: if the APWU doesn't know about the LCA, it is not binding.

egark & ^*^*^ : I understand that you can go in and present your own step one. Should you and mgt. reach an agreement, the union must be brought in and a form 13 (?) signed off on. (not real sure about the form number) I asked the POM when this was being signed "Don't you want the union in on this?" No, that won't be necessary. Now I work in a small office, maybe 50 clerks max. To say the union didn't know about it is not true. They knew, offically? maybe not, but they knew. Now comes the question, did the union fulfill its' fiduciary duties and responsibilities? I don't believe they did. (Ms. Crowder,union pres., doesn't really care for me) The Arbitrator stated that the union should have filled a grievance at the time the LCA was signed, they didn't. Some will say, why didn't you greive it? Hell, it was my agreement, why would I grieve it? It is akin to the union filing a grievance when your looking at casual in lue of. The individual clerk doesn't have to come up to the union and request that a grievance be brought, the union does it on behalf of the union members.


I am here to get both information and IF information is obtained that can lead to getting my job back, then I will pursue that also. Right now, I am having a hard time trying to figure out how an agreement that is supposidly non binding can be binding and when it is binding, what is to stop anyone from negotiating their own "agreement", union be-damned.

And really, I wanted a conversation with folks that are more knowledgable than me that could help me hash this out. The union here is less than worthless. This is NO reflection on national. This local has been run like a little fiefdom, go balls to the wall for some people and ignore others. (I'm not the only one that is ignored) I don't know near what a lot of you guys know and I just wanted a brisk conversation on all the points.

Thanks! I mean it.

Ray /m13093 -- I would say that the union finding out about it by word of mouth or rumor after the fact does not satisfy being "given the opportunity to be present". This opportunity must be given before the settlement meeting. If the union was not present and not told about it before hand, then the agreement is not binding. How did they know? Did you tell them? How did you prove to an arbitrator that they knew?

I still stand by my original position: you intentionally cut the union out of the process and then later on complain they didn't do right by you. You screwed up and are looking for a scapegoat.

/m13094 The instant you signed LCA without union being present, it was over for you. They sucked you into signing one for 2 years. Would you have bit on a 3-year one? 4? 5? Boy did they have a big laugh later.

You were in your own happy world and never considered menioning it to union when doing so might have saved your job. How'd that work out for ya?

I think your case is all anyone needs to know about dealing with Mgt alone. You got fired and you didn't need to be.

egark: No, I did not intentionally cut the union out. I asked the POM "don't you want the union in on this?" By the same token, I never asked that they be there either.

The union, as far as I know, did not know of the agreement "before hand". There is no doubt in my mind that they knew afterwards though. Like I said, this is a small office, a little payton place if you will.

OK, the agreement is not binding. Now what? If the agreement is not binding, how did I screw up? Let me add, I feel that I have lived up to my end of the bargin. I never got "in another supervisors face", never had any run in with anyone at all. The reason the LCA was brought to bear was because of a lie propagated by mgt. I have three witness that have written statements to the effect that what mgt. claims happened never took place.

Understand, the arbitrators decision was that he lacked jurisdiction in this matter as the LCA stated that my only recourse of action was through MSPB. I filed a greivance. I can cite numerous arb.s that state that no matter what an LCA stipulates to, you always have the right to file a greivance. Please tell me where I screwed up. My gut tells me that the local and mgt. got together and "appealed" to the arbitrator, and got his "decision", or they got together and worked with each other to obtain what they both wanted, me gone.

Ray /m13006 -- you "never asked that they be there either" IS intentionally cutting the union out.

You said the arbitrator said a grievance should have been filed. You didn't answer my question: how did you prove the union knew? "No doubt", word-of-word, Payton Place, small office doesn't count.

I think there is no chance the union and mgt "got" to an arbitrator.

I will that agree that once you cut the union out of the loop and came running back afterwards for help that they may not have busted their butts for you.

You know what? To heck with it, I got bent over and dry humped till I squeeked. S#*t happens. Thanks for the conversation. Later

#1 Postal Supervisor

Ray /m13098 -- Bye, Ray.

About four ears ago at a union meeting I heard the president of the union speaking about a program with the acronym of END that the postal service had for the post office. He said it was a plan that the higher ups had to end the postal service as we know it. It seems to me now that he had found out information and it is now coming about. Anyone else know or hear about this END program?