There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: From Haider Ali Agha
From: "parthasinha1" <parthasinha1@yahoo.com>
2. Re: From Haider Ali Agha
From: "sudheesh_s" <sudheesh007@hotmail.com>
3. Re: From Haider Ali Agha
From: "kalidas1957" <cintamani@lycos.co.uk>
4. Re: SRK and other religions
From: Stephen <bummer1962@yahoo.com>
5. Jai Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa!
From: lata bhambwani <mohini_lata@yahoo.com>
6. Re: SRK and other religions
From: Stephen <bummer1962@yahoo.com>
7. Re: Re: From Haider Ali Agha
From: Haider Ali Agha <haider37@yahoo.com>
8. Re: Regarding meditation and japam
From: Krishna Prasad Akkineni <krishna.akkineni@wipro.com>
9. Re:SRK and other religions
From: "Hafizullah" <hafizullah@aol.com>
10. Sri Ramakrishna and Islam.
From: Jagannath Chatterjee <jagchat01@yahoo.com>
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:20:02 -0000
From: "parthasinha1" <parthasinha1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: From Haider Ali Agha
--- In Ramakrishna@yahoogroups.com, "Vivekananda Centre"
<vivekananda@b...> wrote:
> From: "Haider Ali Agha" <haider37@y...>
> To: <Ramakrishna@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 03:24
> Subject: Re: [Sri Ramakrishna] SRK and other religions
>
>
....
> Would you please tell me links from where i can
> downaload e-book entitled ' gospel of Sri
> Ramakrishna'.....
You can find the Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda and links to
the Gospel at www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info
Partha
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:35:26 -0000
From: "sudheesh_s" <sudheesh007@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: From Haider Ali Agha
I thank you for that lovely message. I think it's important not to
codemn other religions without intensely and earnestly studying the
tenets, philosophy and scriptures of that religion. To merely
condemn Islam, would be as riduculous as charging Hinduism as mere
idolatory, ignoring the lofty heights of the contemplative and
experiential philosophy of the Upanishads and the vedanata
commentaries etc.
Indeed, we need more people to do this; not to be afraid of
admitting the weaknesses of one's religion n accept the goodpoints
of others...that's when dialogue begins and when we can begin to see
the good aspects within other traditions. If Mr Haider was not in
this group, we would have gone off at a tangent of Islam bashing and
condemning it as a simplistic religion of the sword, where as in
truth much of as have not even made a sincere attempt to deeply
understand the serious depths of its philosophy.
God bless!
Cheers,
Sudheesh
>
>
> I am lecturer in history in the city of Lahore,
> Pakistan. I am very fond of Hindu philosophy, though I
> come from Shia Muslim family. I mostly enjoy reading
> mails and up till now I have been quietly reading
> interesting mail from others. In The Quran, there are
> verses which using the word yatafakroon and yatbaroon
> emphaise the process of contemplation as an essential
> duty of Muslims. Quran mentions the necessity of
> contemaplation and meditation in good many places. If
> you give deep thought to Quran, you will know it.
> Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upn him)
> used to go the Cave Hira for meditation and
> contemplation before Quran was revealed to him by Arch
> Angel Gibrail......
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:44:05 -0000
From: "kalidas1957" <cintamani@lycos.co.uk>
Subject: Re: From Haider Ali Agha
--- In Ramakrishna@yahoogroups.com, "Vivekananda Centre"
<vivekananda@b...> wrote:
> From: "Haider Ali Agha" <haider37@y...>
> To: <Ramakrishna@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 03:24
> Subject: Re: [Sri Ramakrishna] SRK and other religions
>
>
> Dear Sir,
Thank you for this your interesting post. My view is that we must
seek out the similarities and points of contact and agreement
between the various world religions if we are to find a harmonious
way forward for all mankind( an approach I feel was exemplified by
Sri Ramakrishna and Swamiji). I would also like to add that Islamic
fundamentalism is hardly really any worse than Christian or Hindu
fundamentalism. It is 'fundamentalism ' itself which is a problem.
Shanti,
Kalidas.
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:08:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen <bummer1962@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SRK and other religions
Haribol!
The Southern Baptists dubbed The Prophet as a "demon
possessed pedophile". He had no control over the angel
Gabriel and required others to write down the
revelations. And cultural taboos of today frown upon
His last marriage. However, was he not then "mad after
God(Allah)"? Those around truly god-intoxicated souls
will always declare them to be deranged. I view it as
a sad shame that we have all these major religions
which suppress the truly "god-possessed" souls. It is
the same with those today who think that the Absolute
is without form or personality. They have touched just
the surface and condemn those who know otherwise.
-Pranams
Stephen
--- Suresh Shenoy <sureshrshenoy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> SRK's Experiences of all religions...
> Secondly, in Raja Yoga, (Read in Vol 1 of Complete
> Works of SV, page 184) SV says that Mohammed
> practiced Raja Yoga incorrectly, and as a result he
> was a mentally deranged man.
=====
What man makes let man prescribe. What God makes let God prescribe.
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:30:44 +0100 (BST)
From: lata bhambwani <mohini_lata@yahoo.com>
Subject: Jai Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa!
Om
At the Lotus Feet of Thakur, Mataji and Swamiji!
[The following is taken from "The Gospel Of Sri Ramakrishna", Volume II, 'The Master's Reminiscences']
"Though the chatak bird is about to die of a parched throat, and around it there are seven oceans, rivers, and lakes overflowing with water, still it will not touch that water. Its throat is cracking with thirst, and still it will not drink that water. It looks up, mouth agape, for the rain to fall when the star Svati is in the ascendant. 'To the Chatak bird all waters are mere dryness beside Svati water.'
--Source: "The Gospel Of Sri Ramakrishna", Volume II, 'The Master's Reminiscences'
Jai Sri Guru Maharaj Ji Ki Jai!
Shri Bhagwan Sharanam Mamah!
Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner online.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:58:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen <bummer1962@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SRK and other religions
Haribol!
It was the same with Meister Eckhart. The organized
religion of Christianity rejected his mystical
experiences. Mohammed was a mystic, a true sufi. Islam
that you discuss is the orthodox view of the general
populace, not the true essence of religion which SRK
experienced and unified. Transcend the words and
propel your soul to the Source of all to unify the
essence of all religions.
-Pranams
Stephen
--- Suresh Shenoy <sureshrshenoy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> After some weeks or so, he saw the vision of Prophet
> Mohammed and saw him entering his body (SRK's)...
> I find that there are no
> spiritual practices that Islam approves / preaches.
> It is mainly a way of life with "5 pillars" like
> prayers 5 times a day, Zakat, Hajj, etc. There is no
> concept of meditation, etc. God is not knowable and
> Prophet is just a human being who received messages
> from the angel Gabriel represented by God Allah.
=====
What man makes let man prescribe. What God makes let God prescribe.
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 11:51:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Haider Ali Agha <haider37@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: From Haider Ali Agha
Dear Partha
I have already downloaded Sri Vivekananda's works and
studying them with profound interest. NOw I need the
Gospel Of Sri Ramakrishna. I shall be grateful If you
let me know the link where I can download it from.
God bless you
with best wishes and high regards
H Ali Syed
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 20:57:05 +0530
From: Krishna Prasad Akkineni <krishna.akkineni@wipro.com>
Subject: Re: Regarding meditation and japam
Dear Sudheesh,
This is a good question and better to have the
answer from any monk of Ramakrishna Order.
My Pranaams to all the devotees of Sri Ramakrishna.
Krishna
sudheesh_s wrote:
> Dear friends,
> I am sorry if this sounds a bit foolish, but i just wanted to know
> what is the difference between japam and meditation according to the
> teachings of sri ramakrishna and swami vivekananda. Is japam the
> continous conscious, attentive repetition of the mantra? now isnt
> that the same as meditation on a mantra? or does the meditation that
> ramakrishna and vivekananda inititated their disciples into entail
> some different practice?
> I hope we will have a discussion regarding methods of meditation and
> spiritual practice or sadhana in general, coz i think that it is the
> foundation stone of our religious practice and it's precisely in
> that, that most of us find problems in...
>
> Cheers,
> Sudheesh
>
>
> Sri Ramakrishnaya Namah
> Vivekananda Centre London
>
http://www.vivekananda.co.uk> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:04:49 -0000
From: "Hafizullah" <hafizullah@aol.com>
Subject: Re:SRK and other religions
--- In Ramakrishna@yahoogroups.com, "kalidas1957" <cintamani@l...>
wrote:
> I would like to say that insofar as orthodox Islam is concerned
> there is, as you say, no method of spiritual awakening in the sense
> of meditation etc, and no real concept of God realization. However,
> within the Muslim Sufi tradititon such methods do exist, for
> example the practice of 'Zikr', repetition of a simple prayer that
> seems at least outwardly to bear some resemblance to Japa or Mantra
> Yoga. Also other methods are employed such as quite complex dances
> and so on.
> Perhaps some other group members may have more information on this.
>
> Hari Om.
>
> Kalidas.
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Hafizullah and I am a
shaikh ("elder", roughly equivalent to "swami", I suppose) in the
Sufi Order International. This Order is a Western branch of the Sufi
lineage known as the Chishtiyya, which distinguished itself from the
source lineage in what is now Afghanistan over a thousand years ago,
was brought to India in the late 1100s CE, and to the West in 1910 by
Hazrat Inayat Khan. A regular member of your list forwarded the
above to me and suggested that I might be interested in posting a
reply.
First, it is necessary to understand that the Islam of the mosque and
the Islam of the Sufi orders are very different things. (There are
also Sufis who are not Muslims, just as there are yogis who are not
formal Hindus.) Islam, like most religions, certainly has that facet
which is basically about social structure and control. But that's
not all that's going on there. The Qur'an is a revealed scripture
and can be understood on 7 esoteric levels, just as can the stories
in the Ramayana. The esoteric understanding of the Qur'an was there
from the very beginning and was taught by the Prophet Mohammed to his
inner circle, which was then transmitted to the Sufis. However, as
is true in most religions, there is room in Islam for both esoteric
and exoteric interpretations but only the esotericists know it.
Within a generation of Mohammed's passing, the schism had formed
between the literalists and those on the path of God-realization,
with the former often persecuting the latter.
The transformational methodologies of the Sufis have been under
continuous development ever since then, building upon foundations
established as far back as the Egyptian Mysteries and including
initiatic streams from Judaism, Christianity, the Zoroastrian Magi,
and Central Asian shamanism. The Sufis have a very deep and highly-
developed technical toolbox supported by a subtle, complex and
detailed cosmology. There are practices of repetition of sacred
words and phrases (essentially a mantra yoga) breath practices
similar to pranayama (but with significant differences: no chin-
lock, for example), and a system of subtle centers called Latâ'if
that are subtler than the chakras and some of which occur in
different places than the traditional locations for the chakras.
There are group practices similar to kirtan but also different in
significant ways, depending upon the particular Order and who is
conducting the circle. The circles of zikr are very disciplined
compared to the usual kirtan; it's often conducted standing, in a
circle or in parallel lines, everyone moving in unison. The body
movements are sometimes very wide, and there is often a deep rasping
breath in the chant that is very powerful in cutting through psycho-
emotional and subtle-energy blocks. The amount of energy moving in
these events is truly astounding, and one must be very grounded.
Sufi cosmology is built around the unity of God and manifestation,
with am emphasis on God's Immanence rather than God's Transcendence.
There is a whole framework of "planes" of existence, from the densest
to the subtlest out to the Absolute. What has been called the Arc of
Ascent is not dissimilar to yoga, but there is also the Arc of
Descent --- how the Divine Being exists and lives through, in, and AS
manifestation and multiplicity. The Sufis see one's whole life as
the dynamic unfolding of the soul --- including the ego and the
personality, and not something that happened once but is continually
renewed from the Source in every instant. In Sufism, the ego is not
the enemy, and we're not trying to suppress or kill it. The ego is a
point-of-view; you can't kill a point-of-view, but its character and
limitations can be seen for what they are. The ego is perceived and
treated, rather, as God's experience of multiplicity; the fundamental
identity looking out from behind your eyes is the selfsame one
looking out from behind mine, but "impressed" by the density of the
earth plane, physicality and emotions, and thus focused outwardly
rather than apprehending its own essence from the inside.
Put another way: If I'm interested in an apple at the top of the
apple tree, I can climb the tree for it, or I can get a hook and pull
the apple to me where I stand on the ground. Sufis meditate "up" but
also meditate "down." Divine Essence is experienced bodily as well
as abstractly. One experiences God in manifestation by a shift of
the focus of consciousness *and of identity*, something like shifting
the depth-of-field in an optical instrument, instead of
leaving "here" (the earth plane) to ascend to a hypothetical "there"
(samadhi). There is nowhere to "go" because there is nowhere and
nothing in which God is not present.
There is no doctrine of karma, as such; the impressions of past lives
are acknowledged but also embraced as a unique (and even valuable)
participation in God's unfolding Itself, *in us AS us*. In keeping
with the emphasis of God in Immanence, Sufism is interested in the
purpose of manifestation and uncovering the purpose of one's life,
which was set into the "substance" of the soul at its creation. God
can only be known in fullness if manifestation is embraced as God
embraces it, because God created this whole show in order to know
Itself in actuality as well as in unmanifest potential.
Purification, as in yoga, is the release of that which does not
properly belong to us. Purification is also the cultivation of the
Divine Qualities in one's being in a process of interior
harmonization; sometimes things that seem to be a wound or a karmic
burden can be resolved by the cultivation/manifestation of
appropriate qualities of Divine Essence. There are precise
techniques for this. Sufis are not, by and large, vegetarian or
celibate, except during periods of retreat. The life of the
householder (relationships, kids, sexuality, vocation, profession) IS
the path and the context for the alchemical crucible, and there are
just some things that don't get "cooked" properly if one does not
live a full, human life. There is continual work on plugging energy
leaks, but since the emphasis is on embodiment instead of
ascent/transcendence, there isn't the same emphasis as in yoga of
accumulating and sublimating the life force for opening and climbing
the chakras. In fact, some people need to eat flesh food for the
power it gives to the fulfillment of their life's purpose, and
experience regular sexual union in order to optimally balance their
energies and embody Divine Unity in the context of relationship.
Sorry for the long post; I hope some of it makes sense.
In service,
Hafizullah
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 22:06:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jagannath Chatterjee <jagchat01@yahoo.com>
Subject: Sri Ramakrishna and Islam.
Dear Friends,
To understand Sri Ramakrishna's attitude towards other faiths we need to understand the difference between Religion, Morality and Spirituality.
Religion is the outward rituals practiced by devotees. This does not in any way directly lead to realisation of God but it does help the devotee concentrate his mind towards God and makes him aware that a supernaturnal force called God exists. Morality, it may be suprising to note, builds up the ego and makes a man feel unduly important and vain unless it is practised with a view to ascending up the spiritual ladder (I am not condemning morality, only putting it in proper perspective, when divorced from spirituality.). Spirituality begins when a man develops vairagya and hankers after God. Sri Ramakrishna stressed the need for spirituality over and above religion and morality.
It is the spiritual thread running across all religions that attracted Sri Ramakrishna. While practising Islam Sri Ramakrishna took a fondness for the Sufi saints. The Sufis, looked down upon by the orthodox Muslims, were actually Hindus who converted into Islam for various reasons especially in parts of Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab etc. They merely shifted their devotion from Hindu deities (Shiva, Khseer Bhavani?) to Allah. Interestingly it is these Sufi saints who received recognition later as realised souls. The Sufi is no different from the devout Hindu, the sincere Buddhist and the mystic Christian, all of whose mode of worship is very similiar. In an incident in the life of Sri Ramakrishna, when he was out in the streets of Calcutta, he heard a Muslim saint calling, "Pyare aa jao, Pyare aa jao", meaning 'My Lord please come to me'. Sri Ramakrishna could not contain himself and rushed to embrace him and both shed tears of joy. Needless to say that this is a sufi form of worship.
It is not true that Sri Ramakrishna experienced the image of Prophet Mohammed to merge into him. Rather it was the only case where the figure whom he saw stayed for a while and vanished without entering him. This led Sri Ramakrishna to surmise that Prophet Mohammed was not an Avatar.
Like any other religion today Islam is also a fragmented one dividing itself between Shias, Sunnis, Beharis, Ahmadiyas etc. There is also a further segregation of Muslims who migrate from other non Muslim countries to Islamic countries and are looked down upon as immigrants (Muhazirs?). The element of brotherhood in Islam has obviously eroded. I think political tensions has got more to do with this than anything else.
Surprisingly the fanatics among Muslims are the converts. They were formerly Hindus or tribesmen who were forcibly converted into Islam. Perhaps their need and zeal to prove that they were as Islamic as the original that led to fundamentalism. Another reason may be the conversion of fierce tribal warriors into Islam, who had sadism inherent within them. Another interesting reason pointed out by vedic historians is that the people of our neighbouring countries basically belonged to the Indus valley Civillisation (the Vedic Civilisation) who were driven out by their fraternity for some reason or the other and were forced to migrate. Naturally after conversion into Islam they bore a grudge against their former compatriots who were called Hindus because they were on the other side of the river Indus.
Regards,
Jagannath.
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