There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: -Song to Holy Wisdom !
From: ken knight <anirvacaniya@yahoo.com>
2. Re: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many
From: ken knight <anirvacaniya@yahoo.com>
3. June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many
From: "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@comcast.net>
4. Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/LadyJ
From: ken knight <anirvacaniya@yahoo.com>
5. Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/LadyJ
From: "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@comcast.net>
6. June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/Vedangas and Yaska
From: ken knight <anirvacaniya@yahoo.com>
7. Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/Vedangas and Yaska
From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@yahoo.com>
8. RE: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many: for Raghavarao
From: "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@advaita.org.uk>
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 03:50:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: ken knight <anirvacaniya@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: -Song to Holy Wisdom !
--- adi_shakthi16 <adi_shakthi16@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear-heart, adi_ shakthi16 is a fe-male and her real
> name is no big
> secret - it is no revelation!!! smiles !!! what is
> in a name, anyway?
> A Rose is a Rose is a Rose ...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAghhhh
All this time I have been discoursing with a lady and
I did not know it.
The feminine, the power of the powerful without which
the powerful is powerless, Shakti, consort of Shiva, I
prostrate and plead stupidity as the reason for my
error.
Now I know that you in your limited form behind
adi-shakthi16 like a little Sufism so may I offer some
Rabi'a, the great lady Sufi poet, who one beautiful,
sunny day was beckoned by her maid to go into the
garden.
'Rabi'a, come into the garden to enjoy what the
Creator has made.'
From inside the house Rabi'a replied:
'Come inside and meet the Creator.'
Or my favourite of all is her prayer:
'O God! If I worship Thee in fear of hell, burn me in
hell; and if I worship Thee in hope of paradise,
exclude me from paradise; but if I worship Thee for
Thine own sake, withhold not Thine Everlasting
Beauty.'
So great lady, you have directed us to RV.X.71.4:
'One man hath ne'er seen Vak, and yet he seeth: one
man hath hearing but hath never heard her.
But to another hath she shown her beauty as a fond
well-dressed woman to her husband.'
This verse is crucial to our journey with YAska which
will begin with a posting tonight. When I first met
this 'metaphor' in the Upanishads I wondered where
such imagery had come from. Then came the study of vAk
and all was revealed.
In recent times there been a re-awakening to the
intuitive, feminine, aspect of mind. ( I do not mean
the superficial pyscho-babble emanating from some
universities). South Asian traditions have always had
this as central. Father Bede Griffiths, a Benedictine
monk, spent the second half of his life in India where
he encountered theo-philosophies that expanded his
patristic Christian modes of thought. He had a
profound experience of The Holy Mother and was able to
write of the need for an inner meeting of the male and
female:
'......This meeting must take place at the deepest
level of the human consciousness. It is an encounter
ultimately between the two fundamental dimensions of
human nature: the male and the female - the masculine,
rational, active, dominating power of the mind, and
the feminine, intuitive, passive and receptive power.
Of course, these two dimensions exist in every human
being and in every people and race. But for the past
two thousand years, coming to a climax in the present
century, the masculine, rational mind has gradually
come to dominate Western Europe and has now spread its
influence all over the world.'
I don't necessarily agree with some of the qualities
he gives as masculine and feminine.
To make futher amends I am posting below a list of the
female Rshis(RshikA) and the references for their Rks.
Some people may not be aware that there are/were many
RshikA:
GhoshA (Kakshivati, Rgveda 10, 39), Sraddhã (KAmAyanI,
10, 151), SikatA (NivAvarI, 9, 86), Agastya-svasãA
(10. 60), SArpa rAjñI (10, 189), IndrasnushA
(Vasukra-patniI 10, 28), GodhA (10, 134), Nadi (3,
33), LopAmudrA (1, 179), ViSvavArA (AtreyI , 5, 28),
VAk (AmbhranI, 10, 125), YamI (VaivasvatI, 10, 10),
SASvatI (AngirasI, 8, 1), SaramA (DevaSunI, 10, 108),
SUryA (SAvitri, 10, 85). SachI (PulomI, 10, 159), JuhU
(Brahma-jAyA, 10, 109), DakshinA (PrajApatyA 10, 107),
Aditi (DAkshAyanI, 10, 72), RAtri (Bharadvaji, 10,
127), RomaSA (Brahma-vAdiinI, 1, 126 and 1 27) and
ApalA (8, 7)
Best wishes
If I have been admonished
Kenneth Knight
otherwise I am still Ken Knight
=====
'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.'
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:50:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: ken knight <anirvacaniya@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many
--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@yahoo.com> wrote:
>And when
> such an identification takes place there is no more
> Varuna or Indra
> or Ganga - there is only brahman. It is only that
> state which is
> the state of perfection and purity. This is why
> every sUkta that is
> intended for purification, though appealing to
> `lesser' devatas,
> finally esoterically has to point out and reiterate
> the fact
> that `All this is brahman'. The universal heart/mind
> has to be
> touched and as Ken-ji says, this is the purpose of
> all tapas, yajna
> and ritual. And that is why, though I have been
> reciting the
> nAsadIya-sUkta from my boyhood as if it were just a
> routine portion
> of the udaka-shAnti mantra, it is clear now that it
> had to be there;
> for without it there can be no `meeting of the
> individual with the
> universal, vyashti with samashti'!
Namaste Professor,
Sorry to have delayed my reply. You have responded so
well to my appeal at the beginning of this topic for
those with practical experience to help me out. So
many, many thanks.
No doubt all births are lawful, each of us in the
right place, but how much I yearn to have had one such
as yours where the Vedas were there to be learned by
heart. Although I am sure that you also wished to be
elsewhere at times.
One of the founder members of this group, Madhava
Turumella, has met up with me a couple of times
recently and whenever I mention to him some translated
Sloka he rattles off the Sanskrit learned in his
youth. All I learned was about Jack and Jill going up
some hill, and it takes me ages to learn a single
stanza in Sanskrit. Come to think of it, a lot of the
mantras translate into sentences that seem to have as
much meaning as Jack and Jill going up their hill.
I began this topic also by honouring and naming Sri
Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. If any
understanding shines through these postings it is
through their presence. As the rishi and devataH are
invoked at the beginning of the hymn so these two
wonderful people were invoked at the beginning of this
topic. Clearly their influence is coming to our aid
because your last posting, as well as other members'
postings of the last two days, prepares the way for my
next one. Always a good sign when this happens during
discussions.
I had intended replying to your post step by step but
found it had already been written in the YAska posting
which I will put out tonight.
However, to return to the individual dissolving in the
universal: RV.I.164. Here is the basic question for
all of us:
6 ácikitvaañ cikitúSash cid átra kaviín pRchaami
vidmáne ná vidvaán |
ví yás tastámbha SáL imaá rájaaMsy ajásya ruupé kím
ápi svid ékam ||
'I ask, unknowing, those who know, the sages, as one
all ignorant for sake of knowledge,
What was that ONE who in the Unborn's image hath
stablished and fixed firm these worlds' six regions.'
It is this question that leads into the famous 'two
birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.
To approach any event thinking that we know what is
going on is fraught with danger and first we
acknowledge that we are not actually in charge of
things.
dyaúr me pitaá janitaá naábhir átra bándhur me maataá
pRthivií mahiíyám |
uttaanáyosh camvòr yónir antár átraa pitaá duhitúr
gárbham aádhaat ||
'Dyaus is my Father, my begetter: kinship is here.
This great earth is my kin and Mother.
Between the wide-spread world-halves is the
birth-place: the Father laid the Daughter's germ
within it.'
Next the rishi asks these great questions.
pRchaámi tvaa páram ántam pRthivyaáH pRchaámi yátra
bhúvanasya naábhiH |
pRchaámi tvaa vR'SNo áshvasya rétaH pRchaámi vaacáH
paramáM vyòma ||
' I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is
the centre of the world, I ask
thee.
I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of
highest heaven where Speech abideth.'
The answers he gets are a great teaching. I am sure
that they must be central to all that you were given
in your childhood.
iyáM védiH páro ántaH pRthivyaá ayáM yajñó bhúvanasya
naábhiH |
ayáM sómo vR'SNo áshvasya réto brahmaáyáM vaacáH
paramáM vyòma ||
'This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this
sacrifice of ours is the world's centre.
The Stallion's seed prolific is the Soma; this Brahman
highest heaven where Speech abideth.'
Sorry. The above is all rather disjointed but my son,
now less than 24 hours away from emigrating, suddenly
wants more conversation than he has had with me for
the past year. Hence telephone interruptions while
typing,
Thank you for your valuable contributions,
Ken Knight
>
>
>
=====
'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.'
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:28:51 -0400
From: "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@comcast.net>
Subject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many
Kenji wrote...
> The nasadIya sUkta sings through all generations.
> "It's gone!" sighed the Rat, sinking back in his seat
> again. "So beautiful and strange and new! Since it was
> to end so soon, I almost wish I had never heard it.
> For it has mused a longing in me that is pain, and
> nothing seems worth while but just to hear that sound
> once more and go on listening to it for ever."
>
> "No! There it is again!" he cried, alert once more.
> Entranced, he was silent for a long space, spellbound.
> "Now it passes on, and I begin to lose it," he said
> presently. "O, Mole! the beauty of it! The merry
> bubble and joy, the thin, clear, happy call of the
> distant piping. Such music I never dreamed of, and the
> call in it is stronger even than the music is sweet!
> Row on, Mole, row! For the music and the call must be
> for us."
> If Lady Joyce passes this way, that is especially for
> you.
> Do they find the baby otter ?
May he be found and possessed
such that he is eternally
lost in the call
Especially for you...
http://www.omshaantih.com/Poetry/Rumi/Be%20Lost/1.htmLove,
Joyce
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: ken knight <anirvacaniya@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/LadyJ
--- Lady Joyce <shaantih@comcast.net> wrote:
> May he be found and possessed
> such that he is eternally
> lost in the call
>
> Especially for you...
>
>
http://www.omshaantih.com/Poetry/Rumi/Be%20Lost/1.htmGood Evening Joyce,
Reality's statement in the Rumi poem at this URL is
based on a hadith...these are mystical sayings or
stories that are not included in the Koran and whose
validity is challenged by some.....'I was a hidden
treasure and wanted to be known so created creation in
order to be known.' The English of that is pathetic
but gives you the sense of the hadith. The Arabic
used for the word 'known' has to do with taste, as in
tasting the sweetness, madhur and svadh in the
Sanskrit. Both of which are to be noted in RV I.164 in
the tale of the two birds.
Back to Rat and Mole. Yes indeed, the baby otter had
to be lost in order to be found. having been guided by
the sweet sound the animals found themsleves in the
Presence of .....
As Dawn, Usha in the Rgvedic hymns, lit up the scene:
'Sudden and magnificent, the Sun's broad golden disc
showed itself over the horizon facing them; and the
first rays, shooting across level water-meadows, took
the animals full in the eyes and dazzled them. When
they were able to look once more, the Vision had
vanished and the air was full of the the carol of
birds that hailed the dawn......'
Then the veil is drawn back over the animals' inner
vision,
Oh well, teachings abound and we are fortunate on this
site to share them,
Thanks again for the link,
Ken Knight
=====
'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.'
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 23:04:43 -0400
From: "Lady Joyce" <shaantih@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/LadyJ
Kenji wrote...
Yes indeed, the baby otter had to be lost in order to be found. having been
guided by
> the sweet sound the animals found themsleves in the
> Presence of .....
Ah, but was he lost then found, or found then lost?
In the call...
> As Dawn, Usha in the Rgvedic hymns, lit up the scene:
> 'Sudden and magnificent, the Sun's broad golden disc
> showed itself over the horizon facing them; and the
> first rays, shooting across level water-meadows, took
> the animals full in the eyes and dazzled them. When
> they were able to look once more, the Vision had
> vanished and the air was full of the the carol of
> birds that hailed the dawn......'
I want to share with you an image which Adiji had posted
on her group page, of Usha, along with a short poem and
Hymn CXIII (Dawn) taken from the link which Sunderji had posted...
Thanks to the One and the Many :-)
http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/Usha/Dawn.htmLove,
Joyce
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:10:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: ken knight <anirvacaniya@yahoo.com>
Subject: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/Vedangas and Yaska
Namaste all,
Apologies for the length of this posting but we are
getting into matters that need some explanation for
those who have not heard of vedangas and Yaska.
All the previous postings have been setting the scene
for this one which is the major step before we enter
the mAyA sections.
I am just about to take my wife to point A before
going to point B before going to point A again and
taking us both to point C which is Heathrow airport to
say farewell to my emigrating son later this
afternoon. It is unlikely that I will be able to get
on to the computer until tomorrow as most of the day
will be spent on what is fondly known as England's
'biggest car-park': the M25. Those of you who live in
England will understand what that all means.
Hope the following makes some sense:
YAska, Vedangas and Understanding the Hymns
The unavoidable understanding from this introduction
to the Rgveda is that the hymns of the saMhitA cannot
be presented without error in a written form or when
analysed in intellectual debate. In the various
postings we have encountered the tradition of
eternality of the Vedas, against which we have to
place ides of word sound, shabda, meaning, artha,
intention, tatparya and context. Throughout the
history of South Asian philosophical debate these are
much discussed and it would help us to understand
Shankara if we had all studied the six darSanas.
Hopefully, next month's topic will help us in that
regard. For the moment we must take a further step
back towards the first attempts to understand the
Vedas as they had been collected together as we know
them today.
We have also, up to this point, considered the
possibility that the requirement for intuitive
understanding in the moment of hearing does not
prevent subsequent analysis being of significant value
as long as all 'kindling' is offered in sacrifice;
that there is purity of intention. Both intuitive
insight and rational thought are necessary events in
the exegesis of the mantras so the Vedangas, primarily
aids for the protection of the purity and accuracy of
meaning of the Vedas, evolved naturally as the
teaching and language practices were developed from
the archaic forms of Sanskrit to what we may call
classical Sanskrit.
The need for purity of language or speech, of action
and of the participants in ritual is at the centre of
such spiritual work. This awareness of the need for
purity implies that there is an underlying impulse for
the actions of a study, or ritual, an impulse that is
perfect, whole and 'pure'. At the substratum level of
this purity no fault can appear, it is only at the
level of name and form, necessary for explanation or
demonstration, that imperfections occur through error.
That substratum is central to a non-dualist teaching
and it is illustrated by the final statement of the
ISha Upanishad. This has been well covered as our
April topic:
This Upanishad emerged out of the age of the Vedic
seers through the tradition of Yajnavalkya. It is at
the core of the fundamental questioning as to 'How the
One becomes Many while remaining One.' Centred around
the statement of the seventh verse, 'seeing the same
in all', the Upanishad, through its concluding shanti
mantra, makes the definitive statement on the
resplendent, Sukram, wholeness and indivisibility of
the all-pervading substratum, paryagAt:
'When to that man of realisation, yasmin vijAnataH,
all beings become the very Self, atma eva abhUt, then
what delusion and what sorrow can there be for the
seer of oneness?'
Then follows:
'That is perfect, purna, this is perfect. The perfect
arises from perfect. Realising the imperfect in the
perfect, the perfect remains.' Isha Upanishad 7
(this is but one translation but I have never yet been
satisfied by any translation of this Sloka into
English.)
The Vedangas were first numbered as six in the
SadviMSa BrAhmaNa of the SAma Veda where they are said
to be the limbs of the goddess SvAhA, consort of Agni.
In the Mundaka Upanishad, the rishi Angiras gives the
traditional teaching on the two kinds of knowledge to
be acquired, dve vidye veditavye:
'..There are two kinds of knowledge to be acquired;
the higher and the lower, this is what, as tradition
runs, the knowers of the import of the Vedas say.
Of these, the lower comprises the Rgveda, Yajurveda,
Samaveda, Atharvaveda, the science of pronunciation,
ShikshA, the code of rituals, kalpaH, grammar,
vyAkaranam, etymology, niruktam, metre, chandah and
astrology, jyotisham. Then there is the higher
knowledge by which is realised that immutable,
aksharam.
By the higher knowledge the wise realise everywhere
that which cannot be perceived or grasped; which is
without source, features, eyes, ears; which has
neither hands nor feet; which is eternal, multiformed,
all-pervasive, extremely subtle, and undiminishing;
and which is the source of all.
As a spider spreads out and withdraws (its thread), as
on earth grow the herbs (and trees), and as from the
living man issues out hair on the head and body, so
out of the Immutable does the universe emerge here (in
this phenomenol creation.).' Mundaka Up. I.1.4-7.
Accustomed as he was to the classical Sanskrit of his
time, roughly 4th century BC , YAska needed to
penetrate the archaic Sanskrit of the Vedas. Coming in
a long line of those seeking the purity of the
original Rishi's vision, YAska was concerned with
revealing the original meaning of the Vedic mantras as
used in the rituals of his time. He chose etymology
and grammar as being the primary skills in this
process while, of course, recognising the importance
of Chhandas, metre. He also stated that it was through
the correct pronunciation of these mantras, by
suitably qualified persons, that their meaning came to
a flowering and fruition in their study and practice.
Attitudes to his work vary from dismissing it
altogether, to regarding it as no more than folk
etymology to seeing it as a most valuable, ancient
forerunner in the history of linguistics. His Nirukta
is devoted to the explanation of difficult Vedic
words. The only work of the kind now known to us is
that of Yaska, who was a predecessor of Panini; but
such works were no doubt numerous, and the names of
seventeen writers of Niruktas are mentioned as having
preceded Yaska. The Nirukta consists of three parts
:-(1.) Naighantuka, a collection of synonymous words;
(2.) Naigama, a collection of words peculiar to the
Vedas; (3.) Daivata, words relating to deities and
sacrifices. These are mere lists of words, and are of
themselves of little value. They may have been
compiled by Yaska himself, or he may have found them
ready to his hand. The real Nirukta, the valuable
portion of the work, is Yaska's commentary, which
follows. In this he explains the meaning of words,
enters into etymological investigations, and quotes
passages of the Vedas in illustration. These are
valuable from their acknowledged antiquity, and as
being the oldest known examples of a Vedic gloss. They
also throw a light upon the scientific and religious
condition of their times, but the extreme brevity of
their style makes them obscure and difficult to
understand. But we are here to understand.
Failure to penetrate to the very heart of meaning when
sounding the mantras, or the listening to such a
recitation without understanding their meaning, in his
opinion, withers the 'flowers so that they fail to
fruit.' Through such failure the sweetest fruit at the
top of the tree cannot be directly experienced ( I
have put that bit in as a reference to RV. I.164 and
the image of the two birds but cannot digress too far
into that one now.). YAska referred to that one who
chanted the mantra without understanding as a 'wooden
post', sthanu, and we may note that a post is the dead
product of a tree, unable to flower and fruit.
'Who heard speech without fruit and flower in the
abodes of gods and men, for that man speech has no
fruit or flower, or has very little fruit and flower.
The meaning of speech is called its fruit and flower.
Or the sacrificial stanzas addressed to deities, or
the deity and the soul are its fruit and flower.'
Nirukta I.20
In this passage, YAska's fundamental understanding of
the effectiveness of speech at three levels can be
discerned: the mantras may be spoken with no
understanding of the powers beyond the gross level,
spoken with insightful understanding at the subtle
level or 'spoken' in the fullness of the Atman. Hence
he states: yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA.
Durgacharya, YAska's commentator, develops this
statement:
'Knowledge of sacrifice is the flower, of which the
knowledge of divine beings may be considered as the
fruit. The knowledge of divine beings is in turn the
flower whose fruit is universal knowledge of the Self.
This is what is established by the whole Veda If the
dharma is leading to material prosperity is performed,
the knowledge of the gods is the reward. If on the
other hand the dharma leading to spiritual beatitude
is practised, then both the yajnika and daivika become
the flower; the daivika, which includes in itself the
yajnika becomes the flower and the adhyatmika the
fruit.' This has been quoted from 'The Heart of the
Rigveda' Mahuli R Gopalacharya, Somaiya pub. 1971
pp.10-11
(These three levels, gross, subtle and causal as it
were, of Adhibhautica, regarding the external world,
Adhidaivica, regarding divine beings, and Adhyatmica,
regarding spiritual truths, is a central teaching in
Vedanta.
Bhagavad Gita, Chapter Seven concludes with, 'They who
know Me as the Adhibhuta and the Adhidaiva, as well as
the chief of sacrifice, they truly know Me with
steadfast thought even at the hour of death.')
We can now try to relate this statement with the
'power and the glory' of the posting on the context of
the hymns' oral tradition. The acquisition of any
speck of knowledge requires a certain sacrifice before
the acquired skill gives meaning and authority, as any
school pupil could observe. When the child learns to
multiply numbers, status and awards follow, but the
true delight to be directly experienced is not in the
limited power and authority of that newly acquired
status, but in the magnificent, inspired flow in the
work itself from the first perception of the question
to be answered, through its working and finally to a
successful conclusion. The child will naturally
exclaim, 'I like this.'
The full meaning is not to be found in merely chanting
the mathematical tables as instructed by the teacher.
Nor is the full meaning to be found in the newly
acquired status as 'one who can do multiplication.'
It is found in the pure application of this acquired
knowledge in the correct situation, in the right place
at the right time. As a young child I would sit up in
my bedroom, writing the longest sum in the world
around the walls. My parents thought this neither the
right time nor right place for such activity.
This process of learning and final delight is an
example, it must be stated in my opinion only, of
YAska's yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA.
The fullness of meaning comes through the mantra
realising its own knowledge, as it were, in the fields
of being and becoming. As individuals our role is to
bring, as kindling, our limited knowledge to the place
of sacrifice in that field, at the place of ritual,
where we may recall the teaching of the RgVeda:
agninAgniH samidhyate
'By Agni, Agni is inflamed.' RV I.12.6
This is a simple mantra to chant, easy to interpret,
power-full when realised. In truth, our spiritual
practice is no more than allowing that which is
already present to manifest in ever expanding
fullness.
It may be a distraction to mention this here but an
essential point relevant to YAska's thinking needs to
be made. For the meaning of mantra to be realisable
today we have to consider the eternality of meaning
hidden within sound.
In our day-to-day language sounds stay the same but
meanings appear to change at random. For example,
here in UK when I was a child, the sound 'gay' meant
'merry' and was an adjective. For my children's
generation 'gay' is a noun or adjective and means
'homosexual'. For my grandchildren, 'gay' is once more
an adjective and means 'pathetic'. Such confusion of
meanings faced YAska and those who wished to
demonstrate and explain the meaning of mantra used in
ritual. If sounds could change their meaning then the
permanence of the mantra after an individual's death,
indeed, the very eternality of the Vedas themselves,
would be challenged. The SatapaTa-brahmaNa had stated
that the knowledge attained through the ritual
pronunciation of the Vedas remained with the 'knower'
after death; te vidyAkarmano samavArabhete SB
14.7.2.3. If permanence of meaning of sounds is in
speech only there can be no subtle sounds manifesting
a causal impulse or inspiration, so YAska begins his
Nirukta by dismissing such a view because it would
inevitably be a denial of the Vedas as an eternal
repository of knowledge. Nirukta I.1.
We may like to reflect on this in relation to the
sound mAyA. Are the Vedas eternal and their mantras
able to realise themselves in all times? Should we
try to understand mAyA through the Vedic commentators
in history or through its translation into English as
'illusion'? Or should we wait to hear the word afresh
in the moment 'now'?
(I am aware of the claim, by such as Kautsa, that
Rgvedic mantras are meaningless and/or contradictory
therefore rendering Nirukta as without value in Vedic
exegesis. I leave it to others to argue this point if
they wish.
When countering Kautsa, YAska argues that
contradictions only arise when the whole context is
not known, that the 'appeal to a plant is to the
divinity of the plant', and that the inability to
discover the meaning of such allegedly meaningless
words as 'amyak' or 'jArayAi', is that error of the
blind man walking into a post and blaming the post for
his injury. Nirukta I.15-16 .
It is in the light of such viewpoints that YAska
pronounced yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA.
Nirukta I.20 This final, fulfilling fruition of the
meaning of the mantra, expanding totally in the subtle
and gross levels as thought and speech, is
illustrated by the Vedas themselves so YAska writes:
'With these words, 'And to another she yielded her
body' ( RV.X.71.4) she reveals herself, knowledge; the
manifestation of meaning ( is described) by this
speech..this is the praise of one who understands the
meaning.' Nirukta I.19
(Please note, this is Sarup's translation so I have
not altered his version of RV.X.71.4 which we have
already had posted in a fuller translation in the last
couple of days.)
'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed,
breathed forth.'
=====
'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.'
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:48:48 -0000
From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many/Vedangas and Yaska
--- In advaitin@yahoogroups.com, ken knight <anirvacaniya@y...>
wrote:
> Namaste all,
>> Accustomed as he was to the classical Sanskrit of his
> time, roughly 4th century BC , YAska needed to
> penetrate the archaic Sanskrit of the Vedas. Coming in
> a long line of those seeking the purity of the
> original Rishi's vision, YAska was concerned with
> revealing the original meaning of the Vedic mantras as
> used in the rituals of his time. He chose etymology
> and grammar as being the primary skills in this
> process while, of course, recognising the importance
> of Chhandas, metre. He also stated that it was through
> the correct pronunciation of these mantras, by
> suitably qualified persons, that their meaning came to
> a flowering and fruition in their study and practice.
>
Namaste.
My PraNAms to Ken-ji for a marvellous introduction to Yaska's
Nirukta. May I appeal to all members of the group not to be
overwhelmed by the excellent matter, in quantity as well as quality,
that is being presented by Ken-ji, but to read every word of it
rightaway so that we can enjoy and absorb the treasures that are
bound to follow from his pen in the future posts. I think this is
THE opportunity for all of us to really learn something deep of the
most ancient text of mankind.
If it can be of any help, readers may want to read the following
short note on Nirukta, from the discourses of Mahaswamigal of Kanchi:
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part9/chap1.htmPraNAms to all students of Rg Veda.
profvk
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:01:01 +0100
From: "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@advaita.org.uk>
Subject: RE: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many: for Raghavarao
Hi Ken,
I'm not contributing very much to your topic I'm afraid - mainly sitting
back in awe of your erudition! I am sure that many members of the list will
be studying your posts in detail and that this will justify the vast amount
of effort that you must have put in. This belief helps me assuage any guilt
for not myself reading all of your posts to this depth. It would be very
demanding on time to give them all of the attention they deserve and I am
not that interested in going into this subject so deeply. Nevertheless, I
must congratulate you on the readability and interest of even the difficult
aspects.
I do enjoy your supporting material, such as the wonderful passage from Wind
in the Willows. I also must thank you for pointing us to the chant sites.
Whilst looking, I couldn't resist just trying Pandit Jasraj's interpretation
of the Mandukya Upanishad for curiosity. I have subsequently ordered the CD!
It sounds wonderful and can be heard in its entirety at the
www.musicindiaonline.com site - all 3 hours of it! Are there any specific
chants that you would recommend (actual URL pointing to ones that can be
heard on-line)? I freely confess that I am interested from the point of view
of musicality rather than specific relevance to the topic, if this is
permissible! I am practically completely ignorant as regards Indian music
and it clearly has so much to offer. A brief introduction from any member
would be most welcome.
I would just like to query your comment on the St. John gospel. You said:
'The same was in the beginning with God.' He has
already repeated himself three times, why do so again?
What new element is he putting forward? The clue is in
the word 'same'; see Sanskrit root Sam."
I have seen this sort of thing done before by commentators on the Gospels
and wondered how it can be justifiable. Surely the original of the bible
material is in Hebrew or Greek? How, then, can you take an English
translation of this (same) and attempt to suggest that it was based on a
Sanskrit word (or any other language other than the presumably Greek in
which it was written)?
Best wishes,
Dennis
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