Edited by author 03-02-2001 11:26 PM
Oh, come on accountingboy.

Do you seriously think because I don't believe in a god, therefore I must lead a completely moral-free, lawless lifesytle? I'm very concerned about you, actually. If you were suddenly convinced there were no god or the teachings of the bible were false, would you be having sex with 50 people a night and committing crimes left and right? Because I wouldn't.

I don't have sex with 50 partners because I care about people and I'd never screw that that many peoples' heads (let's face it, you just can't have sex with 50 people and not mess with anyone's heads). I don't murder people, lie, cheat, or steal because I know it's wrong and hurts people. It's not some mythical vengeful god up above telling me what I can and can't do, I simply treat people how I would want to be treated.

And because I don't believe there's a god, I can't experience or understand "love?" That's ridiculous. If you look up love in the dictionary, the entry doesn't say "consult your nearest religious text."

I understand abstaining from sex until marriage, while being atheist. Sex is a Very Big Deal in a relationship, and not to be taken lightly. I didn't lose my virginity until my junior year in college, in my early twenties, because I took it very seriously (while at the same time, never believing in god). There are a whole bunch of good reasons not to have sex with anyone until you're sure it's something special, and that doesn't have to have anything to do with god and religion.

Please explain to me why it's impossible for someone to be thoughtful, humane, and caring, when they live without religion.

Edited by author 03-03-2001 01:29 AM
Whoa, slow down Red Leader,

I never suggested that people who don't believe in a higher power don't have morals, or live morally. I don't "seriously think" that. And I don't appreciate you acting all condescending towards me with this "oh, come on" business as if I'm supposed to perfectly understand your point of view without ever hearing it. I'm merely asking what your rationale is behind marriage and waiting for a special person for sex. I especially don't get where you think I said anything about athiests not experiencing love. And as for explaining how it's impossible for someone to be thoughtful, humane, and caring when they live without religion, you've asked the wrong guy cause I don't feel it's impossible at all.

My question was about marriage and its relation to sex. Why formalize it? Why pledge yourself in that way, if you don't feel that it has been made sacred (=set apart) by some higher power? Obviously, I'm going to view marriage as something different than an 'unbeliever' (see below) would. I see my marriage as the recognition of God taking my wife and I as individuals and making us into one in mind and spirit. Maybe to an athiest, it's something like that without the spiritual component. I honestly don't know. All I know is that marriage is so disposable nowadays (and yes, I realize Christians certainly aren't immune to this) that people don't take it too seriously. So my question is, why go through it at all, if there's always the back door of divorce to escape out of?

My wife and I courted for five years before we go married, just to be sure that we were right for each other. We waited until our wedding nigtht before we made love for the first time and lost our virginities (I think that's a word) together. We both believed, from the moral code in the Bible, that was what was best for us, and was true to the intent God has for our lives as humans.

My dad (agnostic, I think, and on his fourth marriage) got married to his second wife after he'd known her for only two or three months, then divorced less than a year later. Do I love my dad - yes. Do I think my dad is thoughtful, humane, and caring - yes. Do I think my dad feels love - yes. Do I think my dad enjoys hurting people - no. Do I understand what marriage is to my dad - no. Is it something different for him than it is for me - definitely. What is it for people who see it differently than myself - that's my question. Obviously, it's going to be different things for different people, and that's what I wanted to discuss.

I'm not saying that you feel emotions any different than myself, I'm not saying one way is better than another, I'm not intentionally hurting anyone's feelings, I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. I'm just trying to open a discussion on what sex and marriage means to people (and including my own feelings on the matter).

So if I understand your post correctly, you think that sex is a Very Big Deal in a relationship, because taking it casually is messing with people's heads. I agree! I'm just not understanding why nonbelievers (Mary the crazy lady in particular) feel that sex outside of an arbitrary agreement like marriage is in any way different from sex inside the same arbitrary agreement. Or why that arbitrary agreement is necessary. Is it like signing your name to a contract? Is it something more, or less? That's what I want to know.


*** I heartily apologize for any hurt feelings caused by anything I've said. I try to be cautious with the feelings of others' and I think a fair amount of this backlash is because I didn't elaborate much or properly phrase my question in my original post, and since then I've had words put in my mouth (keyboard?) by others. I also hate the word 'nonbelievers' and wish I had something better to use, because it makes it so us vs. them, and I don't want this to be combative. ***

sorry about that - I inadvertently mish-mashed all the anti-atheist things into one rambling post in order to pull as many people interested in the side topic away from the thread. Sorry to attribute those directly to you. Others said it, not you, and sorry to sound so condescending. I wanted to move the conversation over here as quickly as possible, and didn't take the necessary time, and it was done clumsily.

So, back to the topic at hand, and specifically your question. What do atheists think of marriage? What do I think of marriage?

What's funny is that we have a lot in common, besides the whole god thing. My wife and I have been together for five years now, and married for 4 months now. I don't want to argue semantics, but if we could have, we would have gotten some form of a civil union in lieu of a marriage. We wanted a solid, life-long commitment, but without all the religious baggage that "marriage" carries with it.

So why would I even want to enter into a life-long commitment with someone if I don't believe in god, heaven, or hell? Because I understand love. I understand life partnerships. I understand what it feels like to commit to someone for a long time, and then realize I never want the commitment to end. I waited almost five years because I wanted to be sure it would last a lifetime, and I'm feel pretty strongly that it will.

It's hard to convey this feeling into words, but I don't make major decisions lightly, and I'm a man of my word. Getting married is still a big deal for me, it meant that Kay and I agreed to be together forever, through thick and thin, and I don't plan on getting a divorce. We did it for ourselves, not to be seen in anyone else's eyes as something else, and although you may not still understand why that means anything without religious connotations, it feels like a bond for life for both of us, and we're glad we did it.

Gosh, Haughey seems mad/drunk/furious/whatever...

I'm siding with the Christer, here. Haughey's argument is riddled with so many flaws, one knows where to begin. Or even bother beginning...

In the future, you'd do better to not tell christers how they feel; aditionally, I'm an atheist (sic) and don't need your apologies for my soul.

I fuck for the sake of fucking...lots of us do. We dig cumming.

Cumming rocks.

Respectfully,
MPH

I forgot the sex and marriage connection. I don't necessarily think sex has to only occur within a marriage.

I stated why I think marriage is a big deal, but in regards to sex, my personal view has always been to limit it to relationships that were ready for it, that both people involved were trusting, mature, and that the relationship could handle the new dynamics that sex would introduce.

I won't say how many partners I've had, but you'd probably be surprised at how low it is. And why? Because I always thought it was a big deal, and should only occur between people very much in love, and in stable, healthy relationships. For me, marriage is a seperate matter, it's a lifelong bond you make to one person, and isn't necessary for beginning a sexual relationship. So in answer to your question about the difference between sex within and outside of marriage, I don't actually see a difference. It's something serious inside and outside those bounds.

Now why would this crazy lady feel the need to say upfront that she's holding out until marriage? I don't know, perhaps it's just a blockade to stop most men, something to scare the vast majority away before she ever wastes her time with them. For me, I wouldn't wait that long, so I can't speak for her, but for reasons stated above, I don't take it lightly.

I would like to hear from the others that posted in that thread. I find it interesting that people wonder where strong morals or convictions come from in atheists, it's something I ask myself all the time.

Egads...sorry, brother.

Crossed posts.

I only wish you and your wife the best, brother.

I feel a need to represent those folks who don't
subscibe to both your systems of morality.

Sometimes alot of us just fuck...big deal.

We just do it for no reason, for no spirituality, for
no nothing.

That's what I do, anyway.

Respectfully,
MPH

It's ok MPH, I understand. Everyone's got different views about these things, they're intensely personal, and everyone just has to do whatever they feel is best.

Personally, I think sex is healthy and gets a bad rap in the US for the most part, but I do prefer it in monogamous, long lasting relationships. But that's just me, and even in my immediate friends, opinions vary widely over when it's right, and the reasons people should do it. Some agree with you MPH, and some agree with me. No one is right and no one is wrong.

Most of what I've described about myself here was done for the religious people responding in the original thread. Although I'm an atheist, I live my life in a fairly controlled manner, and I wanted to shed light on how I get along in this world, helping others, etc, free from any religious reasons.

Mary, the way I see it, wants to save sex for marriage because it means a great deal to her and creates a more intense connection between the two people involved. From reading her diatribes, it's incredibly obvious that the woman has been hurt by men who either used her or about whom she made bad decisions. I've been there, and I understand that feeling. I'm not going to save it for marriage, but I understand her being wary of sex. The cuddling thing, though... that I'm not sure about.

I agree with mathowie - people are different with respect to their preferences. To me, it's important to A) make sure you know where you stand and you can articulate what your individual parameters are, and B) that you make sure to find out what your potential partner's parameters are, and that you don't take action to hurt them wantonly just to satisfy your own desires.

By "parameters" I mean preferences, predilections, requirements, anything important about how you envision a sexual (or nonsexual) relationship to be - where do you draw the line where sex is appropriate, that kind of thing.

For what it's worth, I'm a person who has taken a very long time to figure this stuff out for myself. I was an idiot when I was younger - I didn't know how to say "no". Seriously.

I was so easily wowed by anyone who would deign to be interested in me, that I was powerless to ever even *think* about saying "no". Anything that I wanted for myself vanished as soon as someone else's desire entered the picture. All I wanted to do was to please them.

I made a lot of mistakes. I am very lucky I never got pregnant or got a disease during this time in my life. I went through a lot of emotional pain.

It took me a long time to get a realistic perspective and value myself more. I'm recently single, so I am eventually going to face again the idea of entering another sexual relationship.

But this time, it will be different. This time, I will protect myself emotionally and not consider it, and not get anywhere close to it, until I am convinced that the person I want to be with is a good match for me (and I for him), and that we are both committed to the relationship. I also think it's important for love to be mutual, before having sex.

I hear myself say this and I'm scared that when it comes down to it, my wishes will vaporize again. I fear that my hormones will take over and I'll discount my convictions and leave them by the wayside.

And then I think about that feeling in the morning, after a sexual dalliance that I shouldn't have participated in. That creepy, sinking feeling in my gut, that stupid fear: "Does he like me? Will he want to be with me?". And that feeling that I've given away a piece of myself that I will never get back.

I've done it too many damn times. Enough.

For what it's worth, I'm an atheist too. I do my best to live a moral life and not harm other people. Not because of some angry guy in the sky.

In large part it's because of a lot of the emotional pain I experienced growing up. I know what hurt feels like, and I will never, ever forget. I could never knowingly do that to someone. I would be dishonoring myself, that sad little girl inside me, if I did. At least that's how I see it.

I feel sorry for this Mary lady. I think it's clear she's been hurt quite a bit in her past. Also I think perhaps her grasp of reality isn't too strong. But I guess it's better to be *too* clear about what you want in a relationship, before getting into it, than it is to be totally blind, with no standards, and get in over your head too quickly.