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rose
10-28-2007
03:05 PM ET (US)
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Dan Kalikow  06-18-2007
01:57 PM ET (US)
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I just sent this to Siun, FDL's Press Secretary (I found the email addy on the "contact us" page) ...
Subject: Discussion of possible extensions of the FDL blog
Hello Siun,
...and thru you to the other FDL Proprietors, Mods and behind-the-scenes techies (I.e., please redistribute this when you can),
I imagine that Jane must be very busy at the Take Back America conference, and that the other players of FDL must also be extra-busy these days.
So, with the greatest respect to you and to your current workload, I invite you and them to check out the Off-Topic part of my
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/06/18/violations/#comment-767311
wherein I invite folx to a discussion of how FDL is moving towards adding non-blog tools to FDL. Personally, I think that FaceBook, while very well suited to social networking among people of different groups, is not optimal for FDL.
Someone -- name redacted -- suggested in
http://www.quicktopic.com/39/H/j6R8HtFMMKZ/m32
that I email you directly and ask for your participation, in your "copious free time." :) Here 'tiz.
I'd be very grateful for any consideration of these thoughts, either by email or online.
Thanks,
/Dan Kalikow, aka "S.O.S. from MA"
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Dan Kalikow 06-18-2007
09:53 AM ET (US)
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Hi All — This is an exchange I had with someone in FB last week. It sure was difficult to wedge it in there and make it clear whose words were whose. At any rate this FB person (whose name I unfortunately learned) said "OK" when I asked permission to post our exchange in this QT, but requested me to redact their name.
Hello S.O.S., ===> (I'll be marking paragraphs of my responses with that ===> symbol, and showing your text in indented italics) Hi FB UID redacted! This FaceBook naming convention will drive me quite nuts! :) and pls pardon the length of this... almost 50% of it is your words anyway...:)Been watching your posts and I must say personally I am intrigued by your proposals. Clearly some changes need to made in order for the forum to grow.. Unfortunately I am not a techy, at all, so it is difficult for me to follow or feel like my input may be nothing more than a distraction. ===> OBTW, the substantive parts of this note would imho be better placed over in the links I pointed to, which are QuickTopic (QT) links; it's so much easier a tool to use than is FaceBook (FB) because more than just me and you will read what we say... Albeit that QT is still not quite the right tool that we imho need. As far as your "I'm not a techy," nope, no distraction at all, no worries. You're more then welcome; if you have a question about anything, ask and someone in the discussion area will come to your aid.But it's early on and I wanted to share a couple thoughts about how to get and keep this conversation going re more input. ... ===> I'm really glad to have the opportunity to get your advice! :)About the announcements of your wonderful page in threads, I think you could address the announcement a bit more clearly as an invitation to discuss.....etc.. ===> :) Thanks for that "wonderful." :) That's a really good point you just made. I try to keep the intro text as short as possible so as not to unduly disrupt the ongoing discussion of the base post, but I'll work some on clarifying what I mean. TYVM for the guidance. When "non-techy" users say "What does that mean??", then it's a sure sign that the technical writer has not done their job completely.Also be sure a new post has been up awhile before introducing an OT. Perhaps acknowledge the author and their posts work in the current thread before getting to the meat of your OT matter.. (which clearly is intended to benefit all of us) I would also restrain from posting about this at all in a live or special guest thread.. ===> That's an excellent point about waiting till the discussion "matures" before inserting my OT (clarified) :) comment. I often try to preface my OT with some sort of base-post-relevant comment, to sort of "justify" my presence there before jumping to my own OT stuff. But I'll admit I don't recall doing that recently. To my recollection, I've never done my OT thingie in a LiveBlog or Special Guest thread. I figure that in the firsst case, the server's loaded down enough without my shoveling in ANYthing that's not directly relevant. And that I realize it would be Just Plain Rude to post anything not related to the Special Guest's appearance in FDL. Though I can't recall having done the latter two "impolitenesses," I'll certainly remember your advice going forward.As you can imagine in an open source area like FDL there is not a lot of hierarchy nor time for everyone to do everything.. like you, we are all volunteers. But one of the few clear rules mods have is not to allow OT in guest or live threads like book salon or Blue America etc. also the likes of Lew's Padilla threads as well ===> Yep. Tnx, as above. It's tricky, I know. ===> Naah, it's quite simple really; and as long as I say something relevant or complimentary to the base-post writer, and don't post my OT stuff too early, and stay away from the two posting-types that I believe I have avoided thus far, I think I'm good to go. Again — I appreciate your taking the time to explain the "unwritten rules of our social community" more clearly to me!May I ask a couple of questions? ===> Why, sure!Have you sent emails/ invitations to view and or join or support your page/ideas, to the big cheese like Jane, CHS, Pach etc., directly? I noticed Jane is on your friends list at face book.. perhaps she is watching or you all have spoken.. I don't know but thought a direct invitation to view your ideas and or garner support for your efforts may help move things along with more participation from firepups who could really help you.. If so.. please disregard, if not. perhaps you should consider doing so. ===> Another good idea that I'll take you up on. No, I haven't had the guts yet to directly address them (I have so much respect and indirect friendship to them, that I hardly wanted to distract them, specially since they work so hard "herding cats") (that's us), the huge and growing community that they've created through their hard work.
===> Howsomever, someone (Pach? I'm not sure) thought that FaceBook (FB) would be a good tool upon which to further build the FDL community, off its normal blog base. I disagree strongly, feeling that FB is fine for what it's designed to do, but that it's quite offbase for what we imho need. For example: Who cares whether person X is "friends with" person Y? Very interesting, helpful, and probably necessary in a social networking scheme, but irrelevant to the FDL community where we are all equal (imho) in being able to comment on anything. That's why I think another user model — a modern web BBS — would be much closer to the mark. I hesitate to address Them On High because SOMEbody in that group has created this FB FDL community, and I am saying that it was the wrong decision, there being working examples out there that are closer to the goal. Furthermore, I've sketched (elsewhere, in the QT) a way for the FDL blog to be integrated with a BBS in the background — in such a way as to change the FDL blog we know and love only minimally.Perhaps Jane has another face book weekend post in the works and you could post an extended invitation with her endorsement in that thread?? ===> Interesting notion. I'd certainly be happy to influence things to that extent. Problem being I am getting snowed under with responses, most positive, and I want to keep that going... Though I certainly admit that getting Jane's imprimatur would be a major step in the right direction! :)Sorry this is a choppy note, but I'll stop here and hope it 's received with nothing but the best intentions in mind.. hope a mssg this size will squeeze through facebook mail system and find you well.. ===> Not choppy at all, in fact very interesting. This means I've received it very well, and with thanks. Interesting about your misgivings about message length. So if this thingie-larger-than-yours doesn't make it thru either, then I'll just email it along outside FB.
===> Would it be OK with you for me to put the text of your message into the ongoing QT discussion area]? If so, would you have me put in your name as FB UID redacted? Alternatively, you could put this stuff in yourself... You can get there by clicking here: [1].
===> You can create a QT account virtually instantly, choosing a screen name the same as your FDL nickname. Your real name or email addr need never appear, if you like. Or if you don't want to bother with a QT user ID, you can just post and write in your nickname for every post. Same thing as a Gabbly account: You can register and thus "claim" your nickname or just pick the same one when you come back.
===> After I post your valuable comments in the discussion area, hopefully others already there will comment. You've said some important things that imho should get wider distribution.
===> The beauty part about the QT discussion is that it can go on past the temporal boundaries of normal FDL postings. [N.B. — I'm still not endorsing QT as the "right" tool for FDL!]All the best and thanks for your indulgence, FB UID redacted ===> You're quite welcome! Thanks for your comments! Best back atcha! Cheers, "S.O.S. from MA" in FDL, aka "Sos von Ma" in FB :)
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Dan Kalikow 06-17-2007
11:19 PM ET (US)
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I appreciate the fdbk, raven in /m29 — that sounds like a pretty useable BBS! :) Same with the BBS you frequent, TJ in /m27.
oddmommy /m28 -- glad to have you here! :) Ya, I also truly love the FDL community — it's such great food for the soul — and I feel it could be even better (on the software side) than it is now, even augmented by FaceBook (FB). Certainly the community that Jane, Christy, Pach, TRex Siun, Suzanne and the other crew (wish I could remember all their names) *blush* have built here is a wonderful place on the 'net to hang out. I've learned so much from their "base posts" and from the comments of all of us 'FirePups.
_re_ raven in /m30 and oddmommy /m28, I agree that the mods have to feel like they're "herding cats" each with their own priorities. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they feel "snowed in" with their normal blogging responsibities, and that may result in "hard-and-fast rules" that sometimes feel adversarial but I'm sure are not intended as such. Therefore, I always approach them and the subject of changes to FDL with due respect. It's their creation, so they get to pick! (: Occasionally though, one of the cats – like me – yowls for attention... :) Consider that this particular conversation has extended over several days, which is impossible within the current FDL blog model, and (as far as I can determine) quite difficult within FB.
M Levi(a.k.a. realworld) in /m25 — thanks for the feedback and the excellent ideas. - I sortakinda like the notion of "persistent chats." I've used BBSes that allowed their RT chats' content to be converted into a BBS thread. If we adopted this notion, it would mean a change in the "sociology" of the Gabbly chat for FDL. There, we're pretty freewheeling, topic-drifting by convention, and occasionally (horrors!) quite profane! So if the conversion of our Gabbly chats into permanent threads became the norm, it might detract from the current "Let-'er-RIP!" style that FDL Gabblers have come to know and love. Such a thing could perhaps be created (with effort). Or, we'd have to find a BBS that supported this kind of thing, and in either case add its maintenance to the new workload that moderating a BBS will place on the FDL Mods. So, on balance, I'd have to not support that notion. I'd stay with Gabbly as it is (and hope that it remains on the 'net in more-or-less its present form).
- Document Libraries: sure, why not? I've used and created BBSes that encourage collections of docs and/or pointers. N.B., when you said "Cooperatively developing long writeups," I thought "Wiki model." Could be fun, as long as we don't expect that the Wiki would be a good place for the type of interactive, time-independent discussion supported by a "true BBS." There are free Wiki services out there that could be used.
- Social Bookmarking: I don't know nearly enough about this, not having used such a system yet. But your proposal sure sounds like it could add some value to FDL.
So then, M Levi(a.k.a. realworld), thanks for participating, and natch you're more than welcome to comment on my comments here! :) What I would support by way of extensions to FDL, aside from the BBS that I'm mostly concentrating on here, would be the additional services I brought up over here: [1]. To wit, - The 'PupMap, here: [2] (660 'Pups signed up)
- The FDL "Gabbly Chat" (non-persistent) here: [3] and
- The 'PupCalendar here: [4]. Full explanations of these three services are available here: [1].
These first three are already up and running, the first two without any further maintenance, and the third, the 'PupCalendar. needs only care and feeding with upcoming events in order to remain of value to FirePups.
Next, from M Levi(a.k.a. realworld)'s valuable comments in /m26,
... - Document Libraries, and
- Social Bookmarking, as defined by someone who understands it better than I do. :)
TJ in /m26 and /m27 — (your comments in quoted indented italics, my responses outdented:) "I would support having a bulletin board with a topic for each new blog post, as well as ongoing topics and a social area. I regularly use a couple of bulletine boards and have ongoing friendships with the folks." Absolutely true for me too, TJ. I've been a member of such electronic communities for awhile, long before the Web. I've made good friends with other ppl in those communities, some of whom I still get together with despite being long-gone from the companies where we met. Even more fun were the "BBS Parties" where anyone within driving distance showed up to meet their BBS-Buddies F2F. "However, it doesn't seem that FDL wants to support this effort now. I wonder if one of the top level people would be willing to post a link to a poll to check the general level of interest." Well, imho the "powers that be" (PTB) must be interested in supporting some sort of extension to the blog model that has served FDL so well in the past... but at the moment they're encouraging us to use FB for that purpose, which is "kludgy" for the large community created by their hard work and attractive intellects. Someone (dunno who) in the PTB surveyed the field of "social networking" tools and decided on FaceBook — or simply went for it because of habits-of-use in making connections between people with discloseable names in various affiliate groups. This might well be because FB seems to be a good tool to use when connecting communities... But as I say, imho it doesn't work within communities — communities which are traditionally open, zealously concerned about and resistive of the disclosure of their real identities. We also need tools that have relatively sophisticated formatting and preview capabilities... the list goes on. I can easily understand the utility of FB connections between like-minded people from different blogging communities, people who are not loath to disclose their real identities etc. Therefore, I, myself, think that FB is the wrong tool to get to where we need to be, though FB is a handy-dandy, "one-stop shopping," single-login area that can be used to approximate what's needed. However, I would suggest that asking FB to do what we need is like shopping for tires in a supermarket. You might get some tasty or even tangentially useful stuff, but you ain't gonna get what will work on your car. You said you'd be interested in a Poll, TJ. Great idea! Turns out we can do it ourselves! Everyone, please visit and vote in this 'PupPoll. (No login is required; you only get to vote once. Before you can register your vote, you'll have to read and enter some distorted text, via a system called CAPCHA, to "prove you're a human and not a robot.") If you have any comments on your vote, please put them in this discussion."Also, Dan, the 13 requirements seem to be making things pretty complex. But I'm posting this in the middle of the Giuliani 12 commandment thread, so my viewpoint may be jaded." 707! Well, all I can say in my own defense is that I'm an ex-academic and I sometimes tend to be too detail-oriented. But I hope that separately stating each of suggested properties of a "good BBS" eases the evaluation process for someone... and I sure hope you finished Giuliani's commandments without barfing too much... I liked that last comment a lot! Thanks, all, for participating! Edited 06-17-2007 11:20 PM
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raven
06-15-2007
05:42 AM ET (US)
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I also hope that this situation is not perceived as critical or adversarial by Jane, Christy et al. It may be that they are so buried trying to provide the valuable service they do that there just isn't the time or interest in changing. FB seemed like fun and no one had top do any work to get it going. As far as dictatorial tactics, working with a huge number of whiny liberals and the occasional wingnut troll would test anyone! Edited 06-15-2007 05:42 AM
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raven
06-15-2007
05:36 AM ET (US)
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Three followup Q's if I might:
1. In the ChevyTalk BBS, is there the concept of "email subscription" either to a particular topic, to topics that YOU post yourself, or to the entire BBS? So that when a reply is posted or a new Topic is begun, you get an email to notify you to check the BBS?
Yes, you do subscribe and you can also become a "supporting member" that gives you some extra bennies.
2. Is there an RSS feed? Not to worry about this Q if you're not into RSS feeds yet...
No
3. Can you register and use a "handle" that keeps your real name and email addy confidential?
Yes, you control what is visible.
Tnx :)
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oddmommy
06-14-2007
10:34 PM ET (US)
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well, I don't understand ANY of the techno-talk here....but I signed on because I like the fdl community, but don't always like some of its more, uh, dictatorial tactics.
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TJ
06-14-2007
10:06 PM ET (US)
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http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1
a forum I frequent regularly
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TJ
06-14-2007
10:02 PM ET (US)
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I would support having a bulletin board with a topic for each new blog post, as well as ongoing topics and a social area. I regularly use a couple of bulletine boards and have ongoing friendships with the folks.
However, it doesn't seem that FDL wants to support this effort now. I wonder if one of the top level people would be willing to post a link to a poll to check the general level of interest.
Also, Dan, the 13 requirements seem to be making things pretty complex. But I'm posting this in the middle of the Giuliani 12 commandment thread, so my viewpoint may be jaded.
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M Levi(a.k.a. realworld)
06-14-2007
09:54 PM ET (US)
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I'm late in joining this discussion so my comments may have already been hashed over by others. It looks interesting., I think the guidelines from S.O.S. make a lot of sense. Some other models that might be useful in addition to a BBS are: Chat, Persistent Chat, Document Library, and social bookmarking.
Chats:
We already have a basic chat model with Gably but it would be good if these chats could become long term objects that had the ability to evolve over their life. It is sort of a cross between a real-time chat and a thread.
Doc Libraries:
A document library could be simply a set of useful indices's to other material or could be used to a) Storing long writups b) Cooperatively developing long writeups.
Social Bookmarking: A cross between Google Bookmarks and Diggs. This could be implemented as part of an index and link oriented doc library too, where the references (links) could contain metadata like ratings, commentaries, links to related materials, etc.
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Dan Kalikow 06-14-2007
05:33 PM ET (US)
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Tnx for the info raven. Sure sounds like this BBS is helpful to you! I'm glad of that. Three followup Q's if I might: - In the ChevyTalk BBS, is there the concept of "email subscription" either to a particular topic, to topics that YOU post yourself, or to the entire BBS? So that when a reply is posted or a new Topic is begun, you get an email to notify you to check the BBS?
- Is there an RSS feed? Not to worry about this Q if you're not into RSS feeds yet...
- Can you register and use a "handle" that keeps your real name and email addy confidential?
Tnx :) Edited 06-14-2007 05:34 PM
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raven
06-14-2007
04:13 PM ET (US)
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Yes, I can see new posts each time I log in. It has a number in a little box on each topic to let you know. I have a 66 Truck and this site has been incredibly helpful as I have rebuilt it almost from the ground up. I have never waited more than a couple of hours for an answer and have even had people send me parts for free. The mods do a nice job of keeping folks on topic and moving stuff to chit chat when needed.
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Dan Kalikow 06-14-2007
04:07 PM ET (US)
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Oho. Nice. With ads, no less! Loox like a pretty standard multi-topic BBS. At the bottom of the front page it says FusionBB™ Version 2.0.1 ©2003-2006 InteractivePHP, Inc so it's one of many contemporary licenseable BBSes built on the PHP language.
Since I've never owned a Chevy (VW, Volvo & 2 Mustangs did it for me), I didn't register. So tell me pls, does ChevyTalk have anything like Next Unseen-by-me or New Posts/Replies since I was here last?
In other words, how do you get directed to new stuff? Tnx for keeping the discussion going! :)
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raven
06-14-2007
10:26 AM ET (US)
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raven
06-14-2007
10:23 AM ET (US)
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I did not take it as a negative comment. You obvioulsy know way more about this than most of us and I was interested to see if I had you right. I'm working toward understanding and this has helped. Thanks
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Dan Kalikow 06-14-2007
10:02 AM ET (US)
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Hi raven -- I assume you're talking about my /m17 *. You are quite right, it was silly that the NEW thread was, at that early time in its life, still in its birth stage, when ppl normally play the trivial "ZED, I'm first!!" game. So when you made the jump into the new thread, there wasn't much THEN to talk about. So, I think you might have been wondering, "Why should I have left the old thread simply to walk into this ZED-playgroup?" :) (FWIW, I too think that the ZED game is a waste of time -- and that ppl play it to advertise that they were Johnny-on-the-spot first to see the notation that "a new thread is upstairs," or else just happened to jump into the 'Lake as the new post is put up.) And if that's what you were thinking, imho you were right -- because we work within the normal conventions of the any standard blog.
Wouldn't it be convenient to be able to finish a conversation despite the fact that a new blog post had been put up for commenting? That's the thought-experiment that I was alluding to when I said "... this sort of comment is symptomatic of forcing what "wants to be" a BBS-style posting into a blog-style model." ... I meant nothing pejorative about your posting in FDL. I was merely observing that you were working, as we all do, within the available tools for conversing.
Consider what we now use. Think of each blog-post as a single "tube" (: thank you Sen. Stevens :) within which we converse. That tube is perforce used to discuss the blog posting, but occasionally there are various off-topic interjections that we are supposed to note by saying "Pardon the OT..." and sometimes a whole OT conversation, or more than one, that occur within a single tube. That's because at any one time, only one current tube exists.
When a new blog-post is put up, a new "tube" is created, and the "crowd" in the old one empties out except for stuff that is "EPU'd." To defend against their thoughts not having been exposed to, and read by, the moved-on crowd, some people re-post their thoughts in the "new tube," and we are supposed to note that fact by saying "EPU'd from previous topic..." This is imho a symptom of our using the wrong communications tool to handle ongoing conversations across "tube boundaries."
A good contemporary BBS allows multiple tubes to exist at the same time. Anything "OT" can find a home outside of the tube dedicated to comments about any particular posting, and (because of the NEXT UNSEEN capability of a good BBS,) the "crowd" can be depended on to read it, albeit asynchronously and separately from the blog-comment tube.
These are complex concepts, but it's my view that anyone who has used a good contemporary web BBS and a good contemporary web-log already recognizes the difference. I'm one of those ppl. I think that if FDL and a BBS are hybridized along the lines I sketched, the sum can be better than its parts. I further think that the main FDL blog we know and love would be changed only slightly in the process.
Dat's wot I meant. Hope this clarification, which I should have put in my /m17, is what you were curious about.
* QT has a nifty convention that you can write SLASH M # SEPARATOR and it will hyperize that into a link to the indicated previous message #. It will pop up a window with that message # in it. This trick isn't really necessary in this case, since mine immediately follows yours, but it's kinda handy when the message being commented on is way before the reply. NB: Still not endorsing the use of QT for FDL's discussion area! :)
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