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Taking part in the governance of communities is basic, important stuff. Of course people disagree and argue about it. Politics is just as inescapable a part of the human condition as childbirth and sewage.

Let Eddie waste hours on his Nintendo. Next time you see a midwife, a civil engineer, or a township supervisor, be sure to thank them for the critical work they do for all of us.

Oh, wait, I forgot to mention that everything you believe in is just meaningless rabble. Nothing you have ever thought of or even hinted at has any ultimate meaning. Your whole life has been wasted. How does it feel to amount to nothing? That's right, you have not accomplished anything, jerk.
So stop being so self important and start to realize that you really don't amount to anything. Sorry to burst your little tiny bubble. It was just too easy. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ahahah ahahahahahahahahaahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

I believe that you are all a bunch of worthless lowlifes that need a huge reality check. Life is short so why waste it on such meaningless crap like this? Get out and do something worthwhile. Know what I mean, dumb asses?
I hate you.

Um, if you guys are doing this for my benefit, you can stop now.

If you think there's a Great Unseen Audience following the debate and keeping score, let me assure you: you're speaking to an empty hall. There's nobody reading this exchange but me.

The recall election is over. I for one am glad to concede that people on both sides were well intentioned and worked hard. It's time to move on.

Bob,
If you measure your intellectual superiority by the number of witty and denigrating retorts you make to in public online forums, then I will cede that you are the smartest man in Pittsfield. It is not my interest to engage in that type of exchange.

I am not politically savvy nor have I tried to present myself as such. In fact, I have stated here previously that I wasn't much into local politics. This attempt at a recall was my first foray into political activism. Yet, that is all irrelevant.

I have stated my position and now for some reason you feel it necessary to attack me personally. That is not a very mature approach to take for the smartest man in Pittsfield.

If you have taken offense to my assertion that people by and large remain out of the loop on local political issues, then I am sorry you feel that way. Go out door to door as I have done, however, and you will find that most people haven't a clue about local issues. And I should know, I was once one of those people. Most of the people can't even identify the names of our township officials.

As far as Wal-mart goes, it isn't Wal-mart itself that will endanger the children at the schools. People like to cite issues with selling alcohol, firearms and inhalants near schools, but I have no opinion on that. My issue is the cut-through traffic. There are 4 routes through the school, including two neighborhoods. The main entrance to that development is directly across from the main entrance to the schools. The school soccer fields lie along one of those routes as well. Anytime you put children in close proximity to cars, then you create safety concerns. The WCRC maintains the site plan for the school originally called for connecting roads to those neighborhoods. Several months ago we met with WCRC engineers regarding all the cut-through traffic. At that meeting they admitted that those neighborhoods indeed have excessive cut-through traffic and it is a problem. With the pending Wal-mart, the traffic is only going to get worse. Unfortunately, the traffic calming measures offered by the WCRC will be deemed too expensive by our township to implement. As a result, I fear that children who stand in the way of shoppers reaching their destinations will ultimately be the hapless victims.

Now, I have no doubt that you believe that I am stupid for having concerns about the safety of my children, so there is no need for you to continue to call me stupid. We already know that. So instead try adding value to this discussion by explaining to me how my concerns are unfounded. If you can do that, then I will certainly give a personal call to the Big 3 and apologize for my actions.

Ahhh... got you off message and you don't have anything to say. IF you really knew what you were talking about, then you'd have a real comeback.

OK, explain (in the way you've been told to - i.e. little words) how Walmart will harm your kids. And don't just blame it on traffic, that's a given everywhere.

PB

Bob,
You are definitely taking a warped interpretation of my words. Good luck with participating in your government...counting toads or whatever it is that you do. The safety of my children and community are more important to me and I will continue to fight for them.

Takes one to know one... ;) Besides, your wrong again, I'm being truthful and sarcastic, not vile and bitter like you. I know that hate is not a family value.

If you can't take the criticism, then you shouldn't be dishing it out in the first place.

And I did learn about the founding fathers in the 6th grade, I remember what they gave to me and that I won't let the likes of you take it away.

PB

Edited by author 08-14-2006 02:21 PM

That's odd. I'm accused of being bitter and then ol' Bob here goes off on me like he's still in the 6th grade.

Kirk (to quote a famous line) you ignorant slut...

You points have been baseless, your organization flawed, your reasoning absent and your words are not even your own. If fact, I can't even tell that you have a thought of your own in your head. You quote other's views, you spew vileness and hatred against good people, you show a complete lack of knowledge and you smell funny.

Honestly, sit down, take a deep breath and learn about government and the law... here's a suggestion - take a civics course and listen. Sure, you attended a few commission meetings, but you must admit that came with your own (or perhaps someone else's) agenda and no understanding of what was really going on. You were mad that your requests were not immediatly accepted and acted upon (after all the world does revolve around you..
                              NOT!)

That's not taking part in government, that's just heckling and Sunday morning quaterbacking. To take part in government is to volunteer, to learn and to participate.

In your posts you show that without a thought of your own you go on through life, speaking from the heart instead of the head. The founding fathers would be sick to see the gift of democracy squandered by the likes of you. You reap the gains of their effort, but, don't understand what it means.

You accuse us of not caring and seem to believe that we want your children to be in danger, that the "no" voters did not understand that your children are in deep and desparate danger of the dreaded Wall-Mart gang (wait 'till they mix it up with the Target cripts and the Meijer bloods). Well, if life is so dangerous for you here in your $400K subdivision, then I suggest you go move to somewhere safer.

Take off hoser and leave the township to those that really care.

PittsBob

JQ,
I am certainly not bitter. I learned alot about people, the township and politics during the last 8 months. I am glad I was able to participate in the political process and have my voice heard. It was a great learning experience. Indeed there is a bit of disappointment in falling short of our goal, but that is to be expected.

My words were not meant to offend. Thinking that a bunch of Democrats would fall prey to some Republicans conspiring to oust the Democratic leadership, however, was indeed naive. You repeated the same statement that Tina made that was nothing more than a baseless attempt to rally the Democrats to vote no. Congratulations to her...it worked. If this was some Republican conspiracy, then what genius Republican was leading this effort? I participated in meetings with ANP and I can honestly say it was a group effort. There was no one leading people to believe anything that they did not already feel was true.

As for the others, I don't believe it is insulting at all to state that people are uninformed. I attended several Planning and Board meetings and there were typically very few other citizens in attendance. How can people be informed if they don't participate? I used to live east of US23. People over there don't feel part of the township to any significant degree. And again, those people do not send their children to Saline schools, so they had no equity in the outcome of the vote.

By the way, I don't get the feeling that a vote "no" was a vote of confidence for the officials. Rather, people didn't seem to feel comfortable with ousting leadership outside the normal elections. Yes there were people who supported the three, but by and large people felt that breaking laws are the only justification for ousting leadership before their terms expire. Since there were no legal proceedings against these three that could be resolved prior to August 8, then those people simply didn't have just cause in their minds to vote "yes."

Bret,
Your elected officials went door to door to the homes of petition signers to demand an explanation for why they signed. Those visits fell outside their job responsibilities. That was personal time dedicated to save their jobs. Of course you can characterize that as hard work...their jobs were on the line. The next time you have a local concern and want action, then visit a Board meeting and see how far you get.

What the recall showed me was that character assasination is alive and well in America. Our family had the opportunity to meet each one of our elected officials as they went door to door to respond to the recall efforts. The elected officials are bright, concerned, hardworking folks who are working in our best interest. The current Pittsfield administration is excellent.

Our educated voters saw past the manipulation and voted down the recall. Pittsfield Township makes me glad to be an American.

Bret

kirk,

What do you do for a living?

Kirk,

If I was in your shoes today, I probably would be bitter too. But when you say this:

"The rest are people who by and large didn't understand the issues, didn't care, or like you, are too naive to believe that there is better leadership available to this township."

you're telling the voters, who made the effort to get out and vote yesterday, that they are too stupid, too uncaring or too ignorant to have made the right choice. Insulting the voters isn't a good way to start off your effort to change the board in 2008. Consider that these voters, who had access to all of the information from both sides, simply decided that your claims weren't supported by the facts or didn't represent their viewpoints. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't make them stupid or ignorant.

"the precincts that voted in favor of the recall are those most impacted by the development"

Yes, that makes the point that your efforts to make this about anything other than the development didn't take hold with the voters. It probably didn't help that many of your claims were either false or misleading. Even in the areas directly affected by the development, many voters still said "no" to the recall.

"They sold out to outside developers in order to keep their jobs and now those same developers are going to have their run at the township."

Really? Keep us informed every time it happens so you have a record of it for 2008.

"People deserve the governments they elect."

Yes they do. I think the government Pittsfield has today, whatever its flaws, is better for the community long-term than if the recall had succeeded.

Edited by author 08-09-2006 01:52 PM
Yes, the recall effort failed to reach its goal. Nevertheless, I am proud to have been a part of this group. And I would do it again in a heart beat. My children are far more important to me than lawsuits and low priced goods from China.

To think that this effort was a Republican conspiracy is so incredibly naive. Looks like you fell for Tina's propaganda yet again.

If you'll notice, the precincts that voted in favor of the recall are those most impacted by the development...i.e. the ones who send their children to Saline schools. The rest are people who by and large didn't understand the issues, didn't care, or like you, are too naive to believe that there is better leadership available to this township.

At any rate, Tina and Homer have been exposed for who they really are. They sold out to outside developers in order to keep their jobs and now those same developers are going to have their run at the township.

People deserve the governments they elect. Good luck with that.

Looks like the recall went down in flames. With only precinct 1 left to report, it failed in all but one precinct. Will the recallers listen to the voters? Or will they continue on their destructive crusade?

John,

















John

Alot of people are upset with the Walmart's of this world for good cause. It is sad that the current administration that has done such a great job for Pittsfield have to pay the price for that anger.

The Walmart issue has blinding effect on some. Not unlike what has happened that has allow the Bush administration to gain control of the federal government.

Bret

Bret

Bret,

Hope you voted that way today. We'll see how it shakes out. But I agree that the Democrats who are assisting the recall effort are unwitting dupes of the Republicans who have been trying to get back on the board since they were ousted in 2000. Let's hope it's an effort they don't come to regret.

The arguments for the recall are wholly without meruit and are frankly naive. Why should the township litigate and spend a fortune on a battle that cannot be won. That would be a waste of taxpapyers money and a legitimate basis for a recall. Walmart has the legal right to build on a commercially zoned location on us-12. There is no legal basis to stop them. No legal basis! Talk about frivolous litigation. The best way to handle this situation is to make Walmart adhere to a negotiated site plan. This is what the current administration is doing.

Second, Pittsfield Township has three good democrats in office now. Does anyone actually think a republican administration would help the anti-
walmart faction? The current administration is doing a superb job. The whole recall is misguided.

"That Wal-mart has yet to begin construction should serve as proof that the recall effort will have an impact on them."

Sure, believe that if you wish. Are we placing bets on that?

"If the recall wins, the supercenter will likely not happen."

Why?

That Wal-mart has yet to begin construction should serve as proof that the recall effort will have an impact on them. Disregard the barrier and sign they placed at the site. They have had final site approval since February and they have not started building. They have not applied for any permits.

They want a supercenter and they are counting on the three to grant them that. If the recall wins, the supercenter will likely not happen. If it fail, then Wal-Mart gets whatever it wants.

Kirk,

As I asked on the other post, I'm assuming that you protested to the school board for selecting such a poor location to build a school. You did do that, didn't you? Or are you a selective in your criticism? I'm not asking you to ask them to tear down the schools, I'm just checking to see if you've been consistent in your criticism or if you think it was A-OK for the schools to build in that location knowing that commercial development could have gone in at any time.

You are correct, the area could be rezoned. I would guarantee that the next day, a lawsuit would be filed in Circuit Court. I can just about guarantee you that within no time, a judge would rule against the Township. If we're lucky, the judge would award legal fees and rule that the Township allow the development to move forward based on the previous zoning. If we're less lucky, the judge would allow the development to move forward and would bar the township from enforcing any rules that it considered as unnecessary. If we're really unlucky, the development moves forward, the judge bars the township from enforcing any rules that the court considers unnecessary and awards damages against the Township for attempting to block the development.

I have to say that I feel pretty sorry for you because no matter what the outcome of the recall, you're never going to get what you want. Let's say that an anti-WalMart board gets elected and tries to stop the development. The Township will get sued and lose and you'll be stuck with the WalMart. Or if not WalMart, someone else because whoever owns that property isn't going to give up the value in that land. At the end of the day, you can fight until you're blue in the face but you're just not going to win on this issue. Sorry.

Edited by author 08-07-2006 08:07 PM
Yes, you and others continue to press us to point the finger at the schools for this. Shall I ask them to tear down the schools? Shall I offer to pay for them to build new schools elsewhere? The fact of the matter is that the schools have been built. Right or wrong, they are built. Building a Wal-Mart next to it is a wrong that we have time to correct.

Here is a word for you: rezoning. Simply because an area is zoned commercial doesn't mean it has to remain commercial for infinity. The township has had 4 years to address the zoning at State Road and they have refused to do so. You contended that Newmarket would have brought in too many people to the township, yet you think nothing of the additional 20,000 cars per day that will drive down Michigan Ave, State Road and Platt Road on their way to Wal-Mart.

I don't subscribe to any notion that Wal-Mart would sue the township if we declined their site plans. Now that their final site plan has been approved then we surely cannot stop them from a legal standpoint. Nevertheless, communities in Michigan and other states have successfully prevented Wal-Mart and other big box stores from building in undesireable locales.

I believe in protecting the safety of my children and I am willing to fight for that safety.

Edited by author 08-07-2006 01:23 AM
The schools purchased that property long after the property was zoned for commercial development. So the schools built in that location knowing that something the size of Wal-Mart was possible. So your anger is misdirected. If you don't like the fact that the schools are located next to a commercial development, take it up with the school board. They are the ones who chose to build there. If Wal-Mart leaves, it doesn't change the zoning and you're going to have commercial development there. But feel free to try and change the zoning if you get your way with the recall. I'm sure you'll get the Township a quick trip to Circuit Court for their troubles.

Edited by author 08-04-2006 06:21 PM
Greg, your arguments about the school are pointless. Like I said in another thread, no one is going to tear down the schools and relocate them. Your timeline of events is off a bit as well. The schools were completed 2 years ago. They planned the schools on that site long before Wal-mart came calling. And I would be surprised if Wal-mart owned that property.

None of my accusations have fallen apart. Everything we list on our literature and website are true. John Mulcahy's assertions about our claims being incorrect are themselves incorrect. One of our reps sat down with him prior to his latest article and went through each point. He then disregarded that discussion and altered the interpretation of our points so that he could bring in irrelevant data.

Greg, what really seems to be happening is that you joined forces with Christina to fend off Newmarket and now you feel a sense of loyalty to her. If you take away the loyalty, then you will find an official who was elected on the promise of reining in development. Only now she and her cohorts have taken in thousands of dollars from the same people she vowed to fight.

Mom in Pittsfield, you are correct. It is not a Wal-mart issue. It is an issue of our officials disregarding the voice of the people. It is about elected officials who dismiss our concerns, try to intimidate us and as we are now finding out, break their campaign promises of fighting development.

The recall is just a poor effort to get some good people kicked out of office via a loop-hole. The recallers have no hard evidance that there is any wrong doing, they just want to blame someone for the fact that Saline built new schools in a poor location. Walmart bought the property 4 years ago, Saline built their schools there 2 years ago - this isn't a township issue, it's a school district one.

They are unrealistic and must live in a subdivision echo-chamber. Time and again, they've made up accusations and shown obtuse viewpoints regaurding how laws work. Since these "accusations" alwasy fall apart under scrutiny -- it's just base mud-slinging.

I don't like Wal-Mart as a company, and I don't plan to shop there. Ever.

Still, this whole recall business has not swayed me. I am not sure it is a Wal-mart issue, not really. As someone on Arbor Update noted, who made the decision to place public schools in a vulnerable place? Are those decision-makers being targeted?

Larry,
First of all, I respect an elected official who would choose to take a public stance on this issue...even though your opinion happens to be the politically correct one.

Nevertheless, I must disagree.

As far as the salaries go, I don't think they are outrageous, but I have a hard time understanding the level of pay given the size of the township relative to others nearby such as Ypsilanti. What's more, I find it difficult to swallow officials approving increases in their salaries when for 2 years they couldn't agree on a new police contract. And our police pay appears to be lower than those of surrounding townships, at least according to some of our police. Finally, Lirones even complained in one of her "Watchdog" newsletters that officials' salaries were too high. If they indeed were too high, then how could she in good conscience approve her own salary increases by 24% since 2000?

I also disagree that the township is powerless to stop this big box store from building here. Small municipalities across the country, including some here in Michigan, have succeeded in preventing Wal-mart from entering their communities. And we are not trying to stop Wal-mart from doing business in the township, but rather we are trying to prevent them from doing so next to 3,000 school children. It is the officials' unwillingness to try to fight, to heed the voices of the citizenry, that was the final straw resulting in this campaign.

Perhaps you have heard by now that our officials are indeed in the hip pockets of developers. In spite of running on an anti-development platform, these 3 officials have embraced support of developers from Bloomfield Hills, including Larry Deitch, in their fight against the recall. Why would developers in Bloomfield Hills care about the ouster of officials in Pittsfield? Could it possibly be that these desperate officials have sold promises to these land grabbers in order to save their jobs? I can't say for sure, but it sure looks that way. Of the $20,000+ in PAC contributions to support these officials, a measly $230 has come from inside the community. The rest has come from these developers in Bloomfield Hills.

Now more than ever, I know that the actions we have taken to rid ourselves of these people is justified.

As for the aftermath, I seriously doubt that developers will run roughshod over the deputies once they assume office for 3 months until the elections. It seems the developers have already run roughshod over the 3 elected officials.