Registration for the relay will be open from 10-2 at the Andover X-country race on Sunday, November 29th. This is the last day to enter. If you are unable to come to Andover, you may print out the entry and mail it in by November 29th. In the event of severe weather (a blizzard) on the 29th, we will have registration on Monday, November 30th at the Claddagh between 6-8 pm. This is ONLY if there is severe weather on the 29th. A little rain or snow doesn't count! Please have all your team information complete and a check or cash in the correct amount for your entries.

Number pick up will be available at Whirlaway, 500 Merrimack St. in Methuen on Saturday, December 5th between 10-3. Clubs should appoint ONE person to pick up numbers for all their teams. Please communicate this with your teams so they know who has the numbers. Numbers will also be available for pick up at the Nashua Y race morning, and again, please put one person for your club in charge of this.

Thanks for running the Mill Cities Relay!! Let's hope for great weather on December 6th!

Hi Everyone,
Here are the minutes from our Nov 16th meeting. Thanks to all the clubs in attendance and to Sharon Yu recording the minutes.
Dave Camire
MCR Commissioner

16 November 2009
Mill Cities Relay Meeting #3

1. A complete review of each club’s responsibilities was discussed. There was a discussion regarding distributing club duties more fairly so that the larger clubs will be doing a bit more and the smaller clubs not having so much on their plate. It was decided to continue to have each club responsible for its volunteers, rather than having one general volunteer pool. This will be discussed more after this year’s race.

2. We received an invoice for the technical shirts that was a bit vague in what we would be receiving, stating only 60 long sleeve shirts. I requested a more detailed invoice from Loco today, asking for color, sizing, whether the logo is applied and to specify if the shirt is technical.
3. Dave Tyler updated the web site map of the course.

4. We are set with the hall, soup, (no beans) food, paper goods, soda and water, permits for the Voke and town of Methuen. I will purchase some cookies and snack mix, as Jackie has done in the past, for the post race party.

5. The Nashua Y is set.

6. Nashua, Methuen and Lawrence police are set. We had to pay Methuen prior to the event last year. I have not heard if this is the case this year and will try to contact someone regarding this.

7. There will be 6 portajohns: 3 at the Y in Nashua, with one of those becoming the traveling one, 2 at the Voke and 1 at the boathouse.

8. Action Bands were purchased to be used instead of batons. We will need two people at the finish responsible for collecting these bands, and someone to store them.

9. The course check and clean up will be done with Glenn’s son in law and volunteers from WCRC and the Goon Squad.
  
10. Registration for the race can be done by mail or at the Andover X-Country race between 10-2 on 11/29. Bib numbers will be available for pick up there as well, and at Whirlaway on 12/5 between 10-3. I will post more on this on the website discussion forum.

11. Phil Quinn postcards will be ordered and placed on tables at the post race party.

Hi Everyone,
Here are the minutes from our Oct 19 meeting. Thanks to all the clubs in attendance and to Sharon Yu for taking the minutes.
Dave Camire
MCR Commissioner

Mill Cities Relay Meeting #2 19 October 09

1. Mr. LaBrode made introductions.

2. Budget Report: there has been no real change in the budget since last meeting. We spent $235.24 last night on refreshments, $165.75 at the meeting in August and I will be taking $15.00 for the check stamp I purchased.

3. Two clubs requested entry to the relay: TriFury and Goon Squad. Presentations were made and both clubs were voted in unanimously. In accordance with previous requirements for new clubs, both were granted invited guest status for this year’s race, with no scoring for the overall trophy, and both were assigned club duties.

4. Phil Quinn Nominations were accepted. There were 6: Chris Russell, Steve Grande, Steve Moland, Glenn Stewart, Marshall McCloskey and Steve Blair. Two votes were taken and Marshall was awarded the honor this year. I will make the presentation to Marshall at the post-race festivities this year. Skip requested that in future years the nomination be posted on the Mill Cities website two weeks in advance of the meeting to give everyone adequate time to review and make a decision. This will take effect in 2010.

5. A request was made by Bob Randall to have a 70’s team score for the overall trophy. This was approved. There will be 70’s male, female and coed (2 males, 1 female) scoring division for the Sunshine Start this year.

6. The giveaway is expected to cost about $3.00, we are ordering 1000 bottles and awaiting the artwork for the MCR logo.

7. Course set up this year will be by Glenn’s son-in-law. Assisting in the morning set up will be the Goon Squad and WCRC will assist in tear down. TriFury will assist MVS at the 4th exchange at Griffin Park. These are the only new assignments in club responsibilities for race day and pre-race day duties. The website has the complete list of duties that you may refer to.

8. Action straps will be used this year instead of batons and these are to be ordered.

9. Steve Moland will drop the brick at the start.

10. The deadline to enter is Sunday, November 29th. No entries will be accepted after this date. I will be taking entries at the Andover X-Country race on the 29th from 10 am to 1pm only. Please communicate this to your clubs. Entry fees are $60.00 for 5 person teams and $45.00 for Sunshine start teams.

11. Number pickup will also be available at Whirlaway in Methuen Saturday, December 5th between 10 am and 3 pm. Please try to have one person from your club responsible for picking up race packets and distributing them to their teams. Again, please communicate this to your club to eliminate confusion at the start Sunday morning.

12. There was a request made after the meeting had ended to budget $700.00 to purchase technical shirts with the MCR logo to sell at the post race party. I believe this should be decided by the board so please let me know what you think.

13. In the event of bad weather, a decision to postpone the race will be made 24 hours in advance and posted on the website.

14. The next meeting will be Monday, November 16th the 7pm at the Claddagh and a reminder email will be sent out about 10 days prior.

Thank you for accepting the GOON SQUAD RUNNERS!!!

Edited by author 08-30-2009 05:01 PM
Hi All,
Below are the minutes to our August Mill Cities Alliance meeting. Thanks to the clubs that attended and to Sharon Yu for taking the minutes.
Dave Camire
MCR Commissioner

============================================================
MILL CITIES RELAY
MEETING #1 FOR 2009 RACE
AUGUST 24, 2009

1. The budget was discussed and a copy of the budget report was distributed for review. There is $12,049.37 in the account. Not included in the current report is a $100.00 donation made towards a tree planted in Maudslay State Park in memory of Paula Holm and our annual social, held in April, which was $895.00. We received $200.00 from the Sons of Italy for providing volunteers for their 4th of July race and this will be added to the rainy day fund.

2. The Nashua YMCA will remain open this year and will be used as usual for our start. A new YMCA is being built about 2 miles away and will be open in the fall of 2010. The start venue will be discussed more at future meetings.

3. Giveaways were discussed. There were 5 suggestions: thermos water bottle, coffee mug, cooler bag, backpack and hat. The hats and backpack were eliminated, as these were recent giveaways. A vote was obtained and the thermos water bottle was chosen. Mark Donais obtained these bottles for his race at a cost of $2.93 and this will be researched. 1,000 giveaways will be ordered, with the MCR logo inscribed.

4. Dave Tyler proposed accepting Tri Fury as a new club, separate from MVS. This was tabled until the next meeting, pending Dave’s discussion with the MVS board.

5. The Phil Quinn Award was discussed, criteria reviewed and nominations are to be presented at the next meeting. I received one nomination from Shamrock last night, which I will hold onto until our next meeting.

6. With the closing of Athlete’s Corner in Andover, we made need to purchase bib numbers. I will check with Jack, and if he is unable to supply the numbers, they will be ordered from Road ID.

7. Steve Moland has again volunteered his services to transport the Porto john from leg one to leg four.

8. The website will be updated to include a GPS address link and a course map through map my run.

9. The finish line needs more help and a new club will be selected to provide volunteers for this task.

10. Glenn’s son in law is taking over course set up, with cones, sign boards and will need four volunteers. WCRC was chosen to provide volunteers for this task.

11. There was a complaint posted on the forum about the results being delayed last year. There were two issues that needed to be resolved before results could be completed correctly and club reps are requested to pass on to their clubs that runners should be patient and enjoy the social event after the run. Results this year will be posted approximately at 1:30.

12. There was a suggestion made for having youth teams run the relay, however, it was decided that it would conflict with their track schedules and requirements. Youths 16 years and older, if members of a participating MCR club, are welcome to run.

13. Next meeting is Monday, October 19th, and it would be great if we could have each club represented.

Edited by author 08-03-2009 05:31 PM
Hi All,
I finally cleaned out all the spam that was posted on the BB. It's now August and time to start planning this year's relay. BTW just to follow-up on the timing thread, the results ceremony for Mill Cities is 1:00 PM. I'm not sure if this is clearly spelled out on the website. If not I'll add it. If we run a few minutes late like last year, you can get the results off of Coolrunning.com that evening. However I do suggest sticking around because MCR is one of the few times we get to honor your fellow runners (aka Phil Quinn Award), run in the last true running club relay competition in the region and celebrate the end of the running year. So what's the hurry?
Dave Camire
MCR Commissioner

Can whoever "Jim" is, please have the courtesy of identify yourself with a last name and running club affiliation, so you don't get confused with us "other Jims" who didn't write the note.

Thanks,

Jim Gulla
President Sandown Rogue Runners

Edited by author 12-09-2008 03:58 PM
Jim,

What volunteer work are you going to be doing for next year's Mill Cities Relay? Perhaps you can handle the timing all by yourself, freeing up Dave and the rest of the volunteers so that they can run the race themselves?

I have timed the race several times for Yankee Timing and it is the single most complicated race to time I have ever worked --- and I have timed at least 500 races in the past 7 years. Changing timing companies, using chips, or summoning a voodoo priestess would not speed up the process for a number of reasons:

1 - Unlike most races, the organizers and clubs involved do not want the overall team winners to be known until the award ceremony. They do not post the results until AFTER the overall team champions have been announced. Even if we had the results 30 minutes earlier, we would not have posted them.

2 - Given the fact that there have been several ties (that needed tie-breakers calculated) over the years and that even the last place team can score points for their club, we can't even calculate the winning teams until the very last team has crossed the line.

3 - Every year we are informed of changes to teams AFTER the team has finished that need to be edited in the scoring program before we can calculate the winning teams.

4 - Every year we have at least one team that has bent the rules in some way and gets DQ'd from the overall scoring. The race committee meets quickly to decide on these, but then their decision has to be edited in the scoring program before we can calculate the winning teams. (The DQs are not caused by teams trying to cheat, but are instead caused by injuries, car accidents, etc. As a matter of fact they are usually reported by DQ'd team themselves.)

Michael Amarello
Yankee Timing

P.S. I expect to see a sincere apoligy from you --- with your full name attached --- on this forum soon and look forward to your volunteering to work at the finish line for next year's event!!!

Jim, I trust you did find ALL the results on Cool Running yesterday AM. This is a complicated event to score, with many variables coming into play. The last thing the committee would want to do is award the trophy and then find out later that some qliche in the scoring resulted in us having to re-award it to another team, NOW that would be bad.

In the mean time I trust you enjoyed your day. I know our club provides FREE entry. Now think about that. For FREE, you get a well manged course, miles marked, FREE FOOD, a giveaway, band, DJ. If you are Patriot fan you got to see the New York football Giants get creamed by the Eagles Just a whole lot of FUN!

I believe it was around 1:15 when we started the awards ceremony. We had planned it to be 1:00, not too bad.

Not everything "runs" according to plan. The most inportant thing is to get the results out accurately, and that I believe we did.

Dave LaBrode
Benevolent Ruler
Andover Striders

Edited by author 12-08-2008 07:13 PM
Jim- Said <<< It's hard to believe that after 25 years of running this race it still takes forever to tally the scores.

Could be you are joking but the bad wrap that timing companies regularly get when the problems are almost entirely caused by other sources is a sore point with me, so I'll assume you are serious.

Of the things that happen to delay results, what percentage in your considered and informed opinion do think are attributable to the skills of the timing company?

And what percentage do you think are the result of the volunteers who write down incorrect numbers or team captains who change team category designation without telling the scoring people or who try to pull a fast one by bending the rules.

There was one delay that happened that I'm aware of. They did not want to consider the results correct without checking out things that seemed odd.

Dave Camire had to take time to search through 2 floors of people to find me to ask why my team had no recorded finish time. He could have just blindly taken the data as fed to him (or not fed to him in this case) but he, like most of the timing companies, does not want the results to be incorrect. I told him that since my other team members were in the car that hit a pole in Hudson they never got to the Sunshine start. Fortunately no one was hurt.

I did not bother to tell him that we didn't start as I had other things on my mind. Thankfully for the event, Dave was doing his best to find and fix all issues that were not his causing.

Edited by author 12-15-2008 02:10 PM
Jim,
We posted the results right after the award's ceremony. I would hardly call it a debacle since we were only 15 minutes later then we had planned. BTW my company, Yankee Timing, has been scoring the event for the past 25 years and we timed yesterday's race for free. What did you do for the relay yesterday other then insult me?
Dave Camire
MCR Commissioner
Yankee Timing President

Did the timing company ever manage to post the results yesterday? It was 1:45PM when I left and still no nothing but a promise that it would be coming soon. It's hard to believe that after 25 years of running this race it still takes forever to tally the scores. I vote that Granite State Racing Service handle the scoring next year.

Despite that awards/scoring debacle everything else was superb!!! A big thanks to all the volunteers.

To add to Dave's comment regarding portajohns. If the race is postponed in the event of snow, we still pay the rental fee for the portajohns and then must rent them again in February, or whenever the race is rescheduled to. It can get costly and I am in favor in keeping the entry fee at $12.00. As far as waiting in line to use the facilities, I've never been at a race where that didn't happen!

Second comment: "...not really a fan of long speeches by people they don't know getting awards for reasons they don't understand"
Please read the following: "Annually the Mill Cities Alliance recognizes a citizen of the local running community with the Phil Quinn Award for making extraordinary contributions to our sport....their dedication, support, commitment and passion for running have improved the sport immensely."
I hope this explains the award and enlightens the person who made this comment.

Edited by author 12-11-2007 10:02 AM
John Gorvin passed along the following input to this year's relay from SRR. Thanks for the effort John. I've added my comments at the end.

O’Donnell bridge

It all went well early on; the team did a great job
stopping traffic so bulk of the field could cross
without breaking stride.

Issues arose approximately 9:55am or so when timing of
runners and lights got very out of synch and traffic
backed up much too far on Mammoth Rd (coming towards
the bridge). Many drivers grew impatient and starting
running lights randomly.

Fearing (a) an accident and (b) complaints the race
was holding up traffic, we had to change strategies,
and let traffic flow normally with lights and instead
stopped the runners until way was clear.

Traffic back up quickly abated, and the runners did
not seem to mind. Hopefully no drivers will call
town/police to complain.

compliments

great race! One of my top three races of the year!

Big thanks for marking the miles on the roads this year - that was great to have some sense of where we were on the course.

It was great to have a porto-o-potty at the transition!

bathrooms

More porto-potties at the interchanges, please. There was only one at the 3rd interchange.

more bathroom options. There was a really long line at the 3 leg
and none at start of final leg

One suggestion based a long line with lots of seemingly non-runners in it - maybe gently suggest "those running leg 4 get priority." I had to pee in the non-existent woods; I didn't have the guts to ask to cut.

The one thing that would make it even better would be additional portajohns. Some of the female members of my team found the long lines for a single facility less than perfect. I know it would cost a bit more, but runners would appreciate at least two portajohns at each exchange.

A porta-potty at the first Exchange point (there are lots of runners both waiting around and finishing at the interchange, and there really isn’t private or secluded space to empty out)

Exchange zones

Some general directives to clubs next year about the handoff process. The exchanges were often clumsy and some exchangers were oblivious to the fact that they were blocking the path of other runners right behind them. Perhaps some minimum width for the exchange area might help.

Directions

My only suggestion for the future would be improved directions on the site to get to each of the exchange points - two people on my team got lost trying to drive from home directly to various exchange zones.

Finish

water when you come in after final leg. It took me forever to
figure out where the water was and then how to get up to the second
floor to get it

Food

I really liked the set up with soup downstairs and the rest of the food upstairs. Kept the line a lot shorter!

The way they spread out the food to include the downstairs really helped minimize the lines this year

Batons

If there’s any way to replace the traditional baton with something similar to RTB, that would be great. I did see a number of people who found various ways to carry the baton other than in their hands but unfortunately, I wasn’t as creative. And I do hate running with anything in my hands.

Awards

Seemed to be a much longer wait until the start of the awards ceremony this year. People are really not a fan of long speeches by people they don't know, getting awards for reasons they don't understand.

----------------------------------------------------------- -------------
Here are my comments

O'Donnell Bridge -- We have two very tough intersectons on the route: the O'Donnell Bridge and the University Bridge. A special thanks goes to SRR and NHAA for handling this tough assignment.

Bathrooms -- We did add a porta-john to the third exchange this year. However Glenn Stewart from GLRR had to spend a lot of time securing permits from the state to make this happen. Hopefully this will not be such a production next year since we now have a procedure to follow. There is also a Dunkin Donuts directly across the street from exchange three that appreciates the business the relay brings. We could probably add a porta-john to exchange four since we have permission to use Griffin Brook Park. However keep in mind that there are folks who do not want porta-johns on their property. I have no idea if this is possible for exchange zone one. This is something the committee will need to address. Also keep in mind that porta-johns are expensive. The committee goes through great pains to keep the cost of this event at $12/person. Cost is a factor particularly when you consider that almost every club picks-up the fee for their teams. Raising the fee to cover additional porta-johns will put a strain on your club's budget.

Exchange zones -- These are well marked and we have no plans to police them. It is up to the clubs to educate there teams on hand-off protocol. I guess it is true that common sense is not all the common.

Directions -- Good points and this will be improve on the website for next year.

Finish -- Good points here. The water should be distributed to each food station to make it easier to find.

Batons -- A relay without batons is like Aunt Jemima pancakes without the syrup or the spring without the fall.

Awards -- The last team finished at 12:09 and the awards started at 12:45. This is a very complex race to score and it takes a few minutes to tabultate and validate the team scores. My suggestion to the committee is to start the awards at 1:00 PM next year. This is an end-of-year social and rushing things defeats that purpose also rushing the results increases the chance for mistakes. BTW the results were done earlier than 12:45, but a team disqualified itself a few minutes before we were going to start the ceremony causing everything to be retabulated. As for the speeches being too long -- how would anyone even have noticed since most people in the audience never shut-up during the entire ceremony!

Hi Dave C. and Dave K,

I just wanted to followup and say thank you from TriFury/MVS for making the changes this year related to number pickup and the final leg adjusted final starting time. I really appreciate that you listened to feedback and took action to improve things. It made for a much better experience for our teams.

Dave

Ed, click on "2007 Team Entries" on the home page of the Mill Cities Relay website (www.millcities.com). This will bring you to the list of entered teams.

I don't see the entries on the website--where are they???

Dave Camire,

Thanks for setting up number/pin/batoon/giveawy pickup this way. I like it.

Dave Tyler (TriFury/MVS)

NUMBER, BATON AND GIFT PICKUP
This year we are handling number, baton and MCR gift pickup differently then in the past. Many teams (see 2007 entries list) have already picked up their bib numbers, but have still not received their batons or MCR gift. There will be two more opportunities to pickup bib numbers, batons and MCR gifts. The first will be Saturday from 10:00 AM to 3:00 PM at Whirlaway Sport Center in Methuen and the other is on race morning. Only authorized team captains can pickup their club packages – NO EXCEPTIONS!!!! I’ll be printing a complete list of these folks on the forum tomorrow. I have a partial list below. It is the responsibility of the reps to distribute the numbers, batons and gifts to their teams. On race morning we will have a sign for each club posted in the Gym. You can meet your team captains at these locations to pickup your team’s stuff.

Somerville
John Gorvin
Sara Radkiewicz
Larissa Bifano

Andover Striders
Dave LaBrode
Cat Cargill

Gate City Striders
Mike Wade
Michael Amarello

Merrimack Valley
Fernando Braz
Marshall McCloskey
Molly Taber

Tri Fury
Dave Tyler

Greater Lowell
Chip Mann
Glenn Stewart

Winner’s Circle
Vicki Miller
Mike McCormick

Whirlaway
Dave Kazanjian

Mystic Runners
Dean Malerba

Shamrock
Bob Croke
Marsha Hogan

Melrose
Mike Quigley

Squanicook
Howard Hersey

Greater Derry
Rosa Tejada

Athletic Alliance
Ed Mahoney

GAC
Jim Gilford

Northshore
Gary Freedman

North Medford
Jeff Gould
Zack Tibbets

Sandown
Jim Gulla

Tonight's Mill Cities meeting will be held at Gil's Grocery located at 30 Main Street, Topsfield, MA. The meeting is in the basement of the store, so don't be alarmed when you get there and the store is closed. Just come downstairs.

Could someone please post the time and location of MCR Race Committee meeting tonight. Thanks.

Howard Hersey
SQRR

Edited by author 11-26-2007 10:45 AM
Hi All,
I just posted the team entries for 2007 on the website. I have a half dozen or so additions that I will make tonight and the list will be final. We are at 175 teams and expect to top off slightly over 180. This is by far the most teams we have ever had participating in the relay. Our previous high was 166 teams. This is great and we are all excited about having a great relay. However the added number of teams is going to really put our organization to the test so we need everyone to cooperate by familiarizing themselves with the rules and following them. We all need to be rowing in the same direction this year.
Dave Camire
Commissioner

Thanks Tom. That part is unambiguous and I should not have needed to ask my dumb question.

Sigh.... Another lineup change to make. Grrrr...

From the web site:

"To count as a scoring team for the MCR trophy you must have a minimum of five team members and three for Sunshine teams. Team members cannot be USATF registered with another club, however, USATF registration is not required. Runners cannot score for two teams. If a runner runs for two scoring teams, only the time for the faster of the two team will count towards the club championship."

Thanks Dave,

I did read that. Just wanted to be sure that meant 5 different runners.

Is the other thing I asked about in post #83 permitted?

Hi Joe,

The answer is no. This is from the rules posted on the website, "you must have a minimum of five team members and three for Sunshine teams."
Dave

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Edited by author 11-21-2007 06:29 PM
Another technical question: Is a runner allowed to run 2 legs for the same team? The rules don't specifically seem to allow or forbid it one way or another. I seem to recall this is not valid but I can't verify it.

As you might be able to guess, I'm having a devil of a time completing a couple of teams

Edit: Looking at post #67 by Chip Mann in this thread which says this:

"I'm glad to see that one of my club's teams was DQ'd for a runner doing legs 1 and 5"

...I guess means that it's not valid. It would be nice if the Race Info page could be updated to specifically state this for dense people like me.

Edited by author 11-21-2007 06:10 PM
Technical question: Is a runner permitted to run two separate legs for two separate teams for the same club?

We are in need of additonal batons for this year's relay. If anyone out there has extras or a source for where we can get them, please contact me directly at dave@coolrunning.com.
Thanks

Karen, "Female Senior (50+), female veterans (60+) and coed veteran (60+) teams will run the final 3 legs of the relay (3 person team)."

Those legs are approx. 2.5, 9.5 and 4.75 miles.

Hi Jim and Michael---Thank you for your input! I've got a couple of NMC friends working on this... Looks like I might be joining forces w/Jackie K. and Dan D. for a 3 person team. Wondering what the leg lengths are for a 3 person team...The website talks about 5 person teams. Anyway, I appreciate your responses...and hey, Jim--NICE going today at Slattery's!!! Awesome! Are you racing T-giving Day?

Edited by author 11-14-2007 01:01 PM
I've updated the MCR website to reflect the new Sunshine Start starting time of 8:45 AM. Also you will find detailed maps of each leg along with start/finish addresses for those folks using GPS devices.

Edited by author 11-12-2007 06:51 PM
 Karen, Jeff Gould is putting together teams for the relay. you can find his E-Mail at the NMC web page.


Jim

Karen - Since you are a member of North Medford, you'll have to contact someone over there to get on a team. Here is a link to their web-site: http://www.northmedfordclub.org/ I believe it has e-mail addresses for all of the club officers. They should be able to help you.

Oops! Forgot to mention--I'm a member of North Medford Club

Looking to join a team...I'll do any leg of the relay. I'm 50 y/o and my 5k PR is 24:09 Been running about 2.5 yrs---have done all distances; including one marathon.
I've never participated in this event, but it sounds like it's a great time!

Give me link to SEO software (promotion, advertisement, etc.). I'm need it to promote my new e-shop.
Thanks.

A hat saying “2001 Final Leg” was found at the 4th exchange the day of the race. I have it and will do my best to get it to you if it's yours.
email me at mmccloskeyjr@netscape.net

I've received some good feedback that I am posting here so that it can be shared with all. The committee can also review it prior to our next meeting to make sure all concerns are addressed.

John Gorvin collected feedback from SRR and it is summarized below. His editorial is noted by being in parenthesis:

SRR bridge assignment
 
Directions should be updated to include an address, which is mapable via Internet. Me thinks the current stuff predates mapquest, etc.

Useable address for the bridge is 42 Mammoth Road - the Bank North building which is a good place to park as lot is larger than the Mickey D's and they are closed.

I think the intersection needs at least 3-4 people...whoever did it alone last year must have been superman. (We had four this year)

Duration of assignment is about 9:00am - 10:20am. First runner arrived about 9:15 or so and last went through approximately 1-hour layer.

General positive feedback

- Water stop on long leg is great! Thank you!
 
- bridge crossing was awesome - there must've been six people in orange vests literally in the road when I crossed - I felt very safe,
 
- kudos to the cops, who were just great to runners and drivers
 
- I love my bottle opener medal - my fave Mill Cities goodie yet!

Loved the new final leg! Shorter is better for us slow pokes and finishing at the bar (last mind you) I still had plenty of fan fare. The Aux Police were awesome. I was trekking thru that ‘sketch’ area before downtown by myself and was a little on edge w/ the pot smoke smell and the people hanging out on the street but then I heard a car following me and it was the Aux police and I was much more at ease.


Leg 4:
 
- Dunkin Donuts deserves special accolades for letting us take over their bathrooms (they even fixed the one that broke promptly!) I hope we bought enough coffee to make up for the trouble!
 
- I found a Porto john just before it (in the gravel lot) that was open (and clean!) - but facilities on the boathouse side would be great
  
It'd be nice to know if we are to be on the road/inside the barrier on the first part of leg 4 - I was inside but others were outside

Runner direction arrows
 
There was a sign just before leg 3 transitions to leg 4 that directed runners off the road and onto the sidewalk. The sign said MCR with an arrow pointing to the right. However its location was such that cars might make the right turn and end up crossing the river. I know one individual did this. I know the course but for a split second I thought
about making the turn. The sign either needs to be positioned differently or
state MCR runners to the right, cars stay straight ahead.

Bathrooms at exchanges
 
Some more bathroom facilities at the exchange areas.

Can they provide some potties at the exchange areas?

I wish there had been even just 2 port-a-johns at the exchanges.

Directions to and from exchange areas
 

Clear directions to Nashua YMCA from the south. We used Google maps directions, which told us to take Exit 4 off US Rt 3N. But when we reached Exit 4, it turned out the exit ramp was only accessible from the frontage/access road, so we couldn't take the exit. We took Exit 5 and had a rather hectic adventure trying to find the YMCA. [I admit that this might be a problem with Google maps or with driving after getting up so early!]

Clear directions for cars leaving the Leg 3-4 exchange area at GLTHS. It was confusing.

The one major suggestion is that they should put driving directions in
the packet regarding how to best leave the transition (as a driver)
between Leg 3 and Leg 4. Even a sign in the parking lot would be helpful.
It was not at all clear that we should follow that winding road next to
the parking lot - thank goodness we finally asked someone who knew after
going in the wrong direction twice.

Post race party

The only concern at the post-race party was the incredibly long line for food. It was not clear that, if you wanted to skip the food line and go straight to the party, you could just go up the stairs without waiting in line.

Party venue was fine (and parking easy) - but we never found the mystery "other food line" - more information needed for that

Just food for thought: Beer Tickets. Some of the people in the last leg went up to get a beer and were told that the beer tickets were all gone. Meaning no race beer. Was this because they were out of beer or just out of tickets? And who needs beer more than those souls in the last leg and bringing up the tail end of the race? Just an idea would be to dole out the beer tickets with the bib numbers. Maybe 2 each? Just an idea to take care of all entrants.

Scoring and results

(I am not sure I totally get this one, but here it is anyway)

Make all teams count: Suppose SRR has two teams and X has one. If they're the only teams, and SRR goes one-two, right now, SRR gets two points (for winning a division with two clubs) and X gets one. Don't let the 2nd SRR team score points, but let them count by giving SRR-1 3 points (for winning a division with three teams) and Team X 1. But the extra SRR team can count against the club if they're slower. If the SRR teams go 1-3, then SRR gets 3 for winning, but Team X gets 2 points.

Not that the current method needs fixing, but it would be nice to have everyone matter in some fashion.

Marshall McCloskey also asked his fellow MVS'ers for feedback and here's is what he got:

Feedback from Dave Tyler

I'd like to help you next year, perhaps even offer to be a co-MVS MCR Committee rep with you. I think the race went very well this year in all regards, only minor adjustments need to be made.
 
For MCR Organizers:
- Need to improve race morning number, baton, and giveaway pickup. Three long lines that each captain needs to do all three of simply takes too long.
-Maybe have a separate mens, woman, and mixed line where ALL items can be picked up at one stop. Or more help behind the table.
-Need to have complete team rosters posted on the wall so people can look up their team and number (like any other race)
-Need better above the head signage at post registration.
-There were lots of name mispellings in the results.
the course maps on the website need to be printable. also, the street address of each transition zone needs to be listed for people who use GPS map finders for directions.
- Need to consider the back of the packers when doling out beer tickets.

From Karen Duarte:

Excellent comments. I was not at the Nashua start.
Very good point on visibility. We should also encourage runners to wear the colors (MVS and TriFury) so we can identify them on the course.

I might also add that the Sunshine Start is not all that organized. We did get numbers this year (not last year). We never get batons. Also, due to the fact that we started at 9:00am instead of 8:30 this year, the mass start was mixed in with the faster runners coming in to the exchange point. This caused some confusion. Perhaps we should go back to 8:30 start or maybe 8:45 so we can get ahead of the transition teams. This also caused some traffic congestion as the faster team’s cars were entering the transition area while the sunshine start cars were exiting. It’s also a safety issue as there were runners at both entrance and exit points. I say go back to the 8:30 start for safety reasons.
 
I have two/three volunteers who would love to be part of the team organization. They are experienced in relays.

I would suggest disqualifying any team that has a runner wearing an Ipod. This is a serious safety issue. Running with the traffic and crossing busy intersections and not being aware of cars or other people around you can put everyone in a dangerous situation.

My two cents from the guy who actually amrks the course.

I paint the mile markers and exchange zones and purposely draw two lines before and after the actual mark to denote the actual excange zone. Similar to a track relay.

While it is true we really do not have an actual "rule" denoting that the baton exchange should takeplace within this zone, it is generally inferred that this is where it takes place. Runners should honor this.

Most of the time that it occurs is a result of "over anticipation" on the next runner just wanting to get the baton and start running and usally occurs pretty close to the actual area . Quite frankly I do not understand why the exchange would have occured so far away as the zones are clearly defined. A 200 yd handoff is definelty worth an explaination.

I wish to go on record suggesting the Committee insitute a rule BANNING any type of headset from being used during the relay. Runners need to realize that they need to be paying close attention to their race as these are open and very busy roads we run on. And for the most part they are running WITH traffic. The bottom line is they need to paying attention to their surroundings not Barry Manilow!!

I have told all my ruuners three things; run with your number, your team colors, and no headsets!!

LaBrode

I still remember the old Cape Cod Relay in 1981 when a team saw their runner croaking on Leg 7 (11 or 13 miles if I remember) and having the last runner jump out of the van over a mile early to take over. We reported this and Fred Brown shrugged it off. It cost us a trophy. Well, boo-hoo now, but it does make us all think about what is fair since we really, really, really want to keep MCR a notch above the rest!

I'm glad to see that one of my club's teams was DQ'd for a runner doing legs 1 and 5. Kind of funny, though since he is 49 and it was an open team.
Hey, Ed, I ran back to my car after finishing the last leg. I was cheering every runner I saw. three or four were in iPod lala land and had scowls on their faces. I thought this was supposed to be fun?!?!

JWebb's comment about a point deduction got me thinking, thanks!
The following is going to be discussed at the committee meeting but before we meet, Dave thought it would be a good idea to put it out here.
I worked the traffic crossing at UMass Lowell on leg 4.
If a runner was coming up the road and there was a question of whether we could safely get the runner across, I would yell to the runner to slow down a bit. I had several situations though where the runners had their music blaring and could not hear me (or chose to ignore me). I had to grab one runner by the arm to stop her as it didn't appear the car was going to stop. She was just 'iplodding' along.
I believe that ipods and their ilk should not be worn in any race.
Maybe deduct a point from the team if they are seen wearing one?
Comments?
Also, I found that most of the runners were very appreciative of us volunteers and hope others found that too.

   Changed my mind on the DQ probably too harsh Maybe a point deduction
   for a flagrant foul should be considered for next year

I agree with Mike that 200 yards should be considered a DQ .It wouldn't seem to be a honest mistake. But if there is no rule.... maybe one should be put in for next year. If not, then why not pass off whenever you want. I must say I witnessed quite a few handoffs outside the painted lines at the end of the 2.5 leg including a couple from our own club, but these handoffs were within 20 yards and none seemed intentional, and I am NOT saying the alleged "200 yard handoff was intentional just that it sounds different then what I witnessed. Also Congratulations to the MVS for taking home the trophy, Great job!! The last 2 years we have only a one point difference, amazing! I hope you come back full force to defend it next year! We look forward to next years competition.

Edited by author 12-05-2006 10:32 AM
I would like to thank everyone who helped out with yesterday’s Mill Cities Relay. When I think back to last winter, the picture for this year’s race was not so bright. I think it was around March when we received word that the Knights of Columbus would not be available for our post race celebration. Well if ever there was an example of turning lemons into lemonade this was it. The Claddagh Pub turned out to be a terrific venue. Paul Morton and his staff did an outstanding job at making us feel at home. Jackie Sullivan did her usual yeoman job of feeding 800 people. The food lines may have been long, but I hope the wait was worth it. We are already working with Paul and his staff to fix the long line problem for next year.

Most of all I want to thank the members of the Mill Cities Alliance. These folks give up a lot of their time to make sure this event is well run. Not many people realize they meet all year long to pull this event together. They all did an OUTSTANDING job!! Thank you, thank you, and thank you.

A number of years ago, a well-meaning running friend of mine said, “Hey, this race [Mill Cities] pretty much runs its self.” Well let me tell you, I’ve directed a lot of events, some much larger then Mill Cities, but none of them comes close in terms of complexity -- over 750 runners running 27-plus miles while passing through 7 communities. That alone is a tough task, but try following it up with a party for 800!

It is easy to understand why my “well meaning friend” thought the relay ran itself because our committee makes it look so easy. They work hard to make the organization of the event as transparent as possible and that’s the way it should be. I am going to let you in on a little secret, it is easy to pull off a well run classic when the entire race committee is made up of the brightest, most organized and experienced people around.

Mill Cities is a unique and important event that we all should protect and make sure it continues to be successful for many years to come. The excellence exhibited by all the volunteers yesterday will set the tone for all future events. I congratulate you all on a job well done.

Edited by author 12-04-2006 10:10 PM
You must have five runners per team, this is spelled out in the rules. We do not have any rule on passing in the exchange zone.

interesting. As far as I know-200 yd. discrepency is definitely a DQ.
scoring teams should have 5 runners who run full distance
anyone else on committee with this??

Hello and thanks to all whose efforts led to another fine day for many.

I hope this doesn't open a major can of worms, but I do have two questions on race rules.

Is passing the baton outside the exchange area (flagrantly, i.e. 200 yards prior) grounds for a
team's disqualification, and, if so, was there a disqualification of a coed team at exchange point 4 yesterday?), and

what is the rule on one member running more than one leg for a team?

Thanks kindly for any reply...

My two cents--guilty as charged..had I known there was a risk of running out of beer tix, I would not have bought as many as I did...sorry about that..I did, however, share my tix LIBERALLY among the tables around me, if that helps get me some forgiveness?

Don't get me wrong. The beer price was great... 2nd favorite price...CHEAP! Just thinking of the folks in the back of the pack. I didn't see it but was told that some of the early folks were pruchaseing a lot more than 2 or 3 each. So, if only 500 were sold, they would run out before the back of the pack arrived.

FYI We sold 500 beer tickets at $2 a piece, so this resulted in a $1 discount on the beer. Thanks for the feedback. We will discuss this in our next meeting.

Edited by author 12-04-2006 07:44 AM
Great day yesterday. Although, did the hill in the first leg get steeper or am I getting older? Must be the hills....

Just food for thought: Beer Tickets. Some of the people in the last leg went up to get a beer and were told that the beer tickets were all gone. Meaning no race beer. Was this because they were out of beer or just out of tickets? And who needs beer more than those souls in the last leg and bringing up the tail end of the race? Just an idea would be to dole out the beer tickets with the bib numbers. Maybe 2 each? Just an idea to take care of all entrants.

Again, my team had a great day. Thanks to all that do the work that put this together.

Cheers, Chris

Can I chime in here?

I agree that this is a messy situation but, importantly, it has the undesireable effect of producing an uneven playing field (running surface?) by unduly harming one MCR team more than others.

Here's a possible compromise.

The rule should only apply to teams and runners for whom the team has paid entry fees for any NE Grand Prix event. That is, if your entry fee in any NEGP was paid for by a team, you belong to that team as far as MCR is concerned. If you entered as a self-funded participant, then you may pick and choose whatever MCR club you desire to run for.

This rule might filter out the ringers and allow the plodders to do as they please. Here is an extreme example of how the rule is now applied. Joe Schlotsky, who runs 40:00 for a 5K, happens to put down BAA as his club for a single NEGP event. Now he is prevented from running in the MCR even though 19 out of 20 races he ran were with his main club, say, MVS.

Edited by author 11-20-2006 03:24 PM
Joe,
I had mentioned the fact that I can still participate (but not score) in a previous post to highlight this is not a 'me' problem but a 'team' problem. The USATF rule affects team scorers, not participants.

Joe, the rule just excludes them from scoring for a team. They are still welcomed to participate as long as it is on a non-scoring team.

It wasn't a comment, it was a question. I honestly do not know the answer. Could someone please answer it yes or no?

Steve Wolfe's comment implies otherwise and I would like to be sure.

Edited by author 11-20-2006 11:22 AM
"I am asking that you at least acknowledge this rule has the potential to prevent some very dedicated club members from participating in a unique club event and that you at least consider a change in the future."

I'm not the Steve who wrote the above, I am the other Steve who posted a few times.

Joe, your comment about being able to run but not score misses the whole point of the motivation of the disenfranchised runners. Had Gate City not voted to curtail serious competition, some of its member would not have been driven into the arms of another lover.

At the risk of a bad pun in having used the term "lover" I will offer that the whole point of running for these runners is competition and "scoring".

To run and not be able to score is akin to kissing your sister.

Just wanted someone to clarify something once and for all. I thought I had this down but then Steve wrote this:

"I am asking that you at least acknowledge this rule has the potential to prevent some very dedicated club members from participating in a unique club event and that you at least consider a change in the future."

As I understand it, the rule prevents absolute no member of the invited clubs from participating. It merely prevents a few from scoring points. Steve, do you understand differently? Can someone tell me if I am incorrect?

As someone who has not been directly involved in Mill Cities governance, but has been on the edge of it for 10 years or so, here is my perspective on the USATF rule.

Prior to the USATF rule, a “club members only” rule existed (and still exists as far as I know). As I recall, the USATF rule did NOT come about as the result of clubs recruiting individuals “from away”, to run on their teams. At least, I never heard of such problems. Rather, the rule was created as the result of arguments and accusations about whether particular (fast) local runners were “real members” of this or that club. In other words, it was questioned whether someone who was a member of a MCR club, but always ran team events for racing teams such as CMS (or for Nike or for New Balance, etc.) was qualified to run as part of a scoring MCR club team.

The “real club members only” rule was not enforceable since there was no specific definition of “real”, and this led to arguments and bad feelings. The USATF rule was adopted (in my view) because it was specific enough to be enforceable, and it filtered out the most obvious problem runners, without being totally exclusionary. If a club member who was USATF with another club/team wanted to run for a MCR club, he/she could do so by switching their USATF club association; Dave Dunham being the example already mentioned in this thread. WCRC did not bribe or coerce Dave into switching his USATF association, Dave did so on his own because he was a WCRC member and wanted to run MCR.

In any case, if the MCR board chooses to reconsider the USATF rule for next year, in favor of a “club members only” rule, all clubs should acknowledge in advance that the rule has to be a “virtually all new and existing club members only” rule (i.e. an open Lake Winni type relay) since it will be in practice impossible to monitor or regulate “when” and/or “why” particular MCR participants join particular clubs.

 "Stacking the teams" does not ensure you the club championship. DD did not win the championship for us in 2004. HIS team finished only 3rd masters.
 Spreading the wealth among all your teams is the key. USATF or not!
 Last year's win was a upset. MVS fielded superior talent when compared to the WCRC but did not realize I guess that mixed points count the same.Time means nothing .As Gary P. said {adequate teams] all we do is encourage as much involvement as possible from our members to join in this end of year celebration,try to put them in the best positions for the club to succeed and hope for the best. We will be using the same formula this year. Good luck to all the MCR clubs at this years relay. If we can't take home the trophy this year, I look foward to applauding the club that does because I know first hand how much work that would take. Have fun and be safe JW

As a member of the WCRC I can assure fellow running clubs that we are really not the competetive force we once were. I have run every MCR since its origin and present teams pale in comparison to the past. Our latest reign can only be described as an ability to field adequate teams in all divisions.

I apparently have a greater tolerance for pain and therefore have continued beating my head against the wall longer than most. My posts are not meant to minimize the hard work of the MCR board or over-simplify the problem you all apparently believe exists. Unfortunately, how I write or how you interpret my posts (or vice versa for that matter) creates the same problem found when people send email: sometimes we all just read way more into the message than was actually intended.
I'm not looking for a rule change this year.
I'm not looking for an exception for Gate City runners or for me personally.
I'm not looking to change the MCR.
I am asking that you at least acknowledge this rule has the potential to prevent some very dedicated club members from participating in a unique club event and that you at least consider a change in the future.

I'm sure most of you don't know me from a hole in the wall...and that's actually part of my point. I don't have an agenda, an ax to grind or any bad feelings towards anybody regarding MCR. I don't even have a storied history running in this event, having only competed in 2005. In fact, up until last year I've never been part of a running club ever. But like most of you, I enjoy the camaraderie of running with my teammates, something MCR promotes and celebrates (especially at the finish!).

So, back to the rule...
Contrary to what some believe, I do understand why the rule was put into place and I also understand what 'could' happen if the rule were not in place...clubs could recruit runners from outside their member pool (ringers if you will). I get it.
What I don't get why try to regulate this via USATF membership (which as we all know by now, may provide the effect you were looking for in general, but also penalizes runners (many) who do not fall into the 'ringer' category or are recruited from outside MCR clubs).

You have a very inclusive rule already: All participants must be MEMBERS of one of the 17 MCR member clubs. Seems pretty straight forward, right?
Well nearly every time it is mentioned, I hear how 'some' clubs wouldn't necessarily follow this rule and they would recruit runners from outside their membership pool (ringers)....all in the spirit of winning. I'm told of how this happened in the past. I'm told that's part of the reason for instituting the current USATF rule.

What I'm not told is what is or was the consequence of BREAKING the members-only rule? If a rule is not enforced or if there are no penalties for breaking it, what's the point of having it to begin with? If there were a penalty for actually breaking the members-only rule (1yr ban from MCR for instance), maybe 'some' clubs would be less inclined to recruit from outside their membership pool. There needs to be a deterrent. Over regulation is not a deterrent.

Clubs should be able to recruit and field the fastest team they can from available club membership: whether that person runs with that club every day of the year or one day a year. This is supposed to be a club championship after all.
My head hurts...

Actually, I'm have been a member of the Marshfield RoadRunners since 1979. I grew up there and love the camaraderie of running with guys i went to HS with. However, since registering with USATF as GLRR, I only compete for GLRR.
A large part of this sounds sort of like the reverse of running clubs when I lived in the DC area. DCRR was an umbrella club that 90% of runners belonged to while competing for smaller clubs. DCRR put on a lot of "members only" races and held year round social events. Since everyone (except me since I was competing for the US Army) only competed for his/her "Racing Team" there was no conflict.
I am not against relooking the issue each year. As it stands now I just feel that we all have to make our decision and live with that decision.

Chip, I have no idea what you mean by 'these guys want to have their cake and eat it too!"?
1. I am one of 'these' guys. I am a member of GCS and run with my GCS teammates throughout the year, not just at MCR. However, GCS has not historically participated in USATF events, specifically in the Masters division. I had an opportunity to run on a competitive masters USATF team (Moose) and do so several times a year. I rarely, if ever score points in the masters division in USATF races though.
2. This rule does not hurt me personally. I can still run in MCR on non-scoring teams. The issue I have is I am not allowed to help my club score points, a club I support year round. So this isn't about 'these guys'.
3. You can be a follower of the 'total allegiance to one club idea', but it doesn't mean the rest of us feel the same way. Heck, you have several members of your own MCR board that are 'members' of several different running clubs.
4. I doubt you have any proof this rule actually does what it was allegedly designed to do..prevent 'ringers' (or whatever you want to call them) from joining a club just for MCR. There IS proof it hurts REAL members of MCR clubs, however. I think what alot of people have been trying to say is this rule was put in place to prevent a problem that probably doesn't even exist anymore.
In the end it's your event, and you can do what you want. You can listen to your members or you can ignore us. It's unfortunate that you fail to listen to runners (and specifically TEAMS) actually affected by this just because it doesn't affect you personally. I guess that applies to my club too since they also choose not to fight for the runners affected by this rule. I will continue to choose who I run for though, and not the MCR board.

Since the discussion is closed, this can be brought up next year. Two things that come to my attention with the USATF rule. I am a member of MRC and only them, so this does not affect me personally, but it does affect my club. We as a club are not a USATF club, but have members that run also for USATF/fellow MCR clubs. I do have an individual USATF number though so I can participate as an individual in USATF sactioned events. First, can MRC actually compete in the MCR without a USATF number (hope this does not bite my club in the ass) and two, if a runner wishes to run for us for comraderie reasons instead of their USATF club, why should those runners be restricted from doing that?

As a member of the MCR board and the grievance subcommittee, I have to chime in.
 I was adamantly against the granting of waivers last year. I believe my comment was "These guys want to have their cake and eat it, too!" Having spent several of my prime running years in Europe, I am a follower of the total allegiance to one club idea.
 I am hearing folks say running MCR is all about the camaraderie. I agree. During my 7 year retirement from racing, I always ran the relay as my annual get together with my old teammates. Joe is hitting the answer perfectly with his statement about the SRR team.

As I understand the rule, you can still RUN Mill cities if you're USATF registered with another club, but your team cannot SCORE in the relay, right? I know SRR has at least one such team specifically for reason of the rule. We're fine with this.

To me the rule seems like the best compromise out there. It *does* prevent people from lining up a few ringers for one event. Not in a foolproof way of course, but it makes it inconvenient enough that few people would bother actually switching club affiliations. Preventing that seems a worthwhile goal, particularly given the invitation-only nature of the event and the fact that scoring is done per club.

I think that "ringer" teams still would happen from time to time, even today, were the rule not in place. Not necessarily because people are "unethical" but because in some contexts such a practice is seen as normal. I think of relays like Lake Winnie where you see ringer teams all the time and it's perfectly fine. But it's not an issue there because teams at Lake Winnie do not need to be a part of ANY club.

If someone can come up with a better way to prevent this, maybe they can suggest it?

Yep, you're right. The MCR is fine just the way it is: as long as they have a rule to include 'ringers' and exclude members, who am I to judge.

Nothing like an end of season race to bring everyone together :-)

Now Steve, you heard the man, the issue is dead for 2006. But, we're more than welcome to beat our head against the same wall this time next year!

I for one will be happy just to get on with it. I'm tired of tilting at windmills and fed up with fighting a losing battle on two fronts. I'm just looking forward to finally toeing the line and letting our feet do the talking. Because, despite the exclusion of many of our key members, Gate City will be out there again this year in record numbers. And, you can be sure that win, lose, or draw GCS will continue to play by the rules and party when it's over!

And, since it's completely legal, we'd be happy to have Mr. Dunham consider jumping through bureaucratic hoops to run with us next year, or the year after. Because whether it's '96 or '06 he's still faster than most masters out there. Come on Dave, "Run for the Gate in 2008"! :)

I personally have no problem with DD running in the MCR. My rule would be simple: Runners are members of MCR-affiliated teams. Period. How often or why you run for that team is your business.
Seems to me that the 'board' has made this a bigger problem that it actually is.
A 'rule' that only affects ONE team doesn't seem like a rule that is working, IMHO.

Gee Dave, you are up earlier than me! Getting in some miles before work?

I'd like to give a passionate plea at next years MCR meeting to loosen things up.

Mike - check out my recent times. I'm DD of 2006, not DD of 1996...

Once again the rule was set up to prevent clubs (people) from stacking teams. No one here has ever said the rule was perfect, however in Dave's case he had to jump through bureaucratic hoops in order to compete for the Circle in 2004. Most, if any, runners would not make this type of commitment so the rule does work. As you know we did try a waiver policy last year and all but one of the waivers we received was from GCS. The original GCS number for waivers was over thirty, but after a closer look the list was reduced somewhat. So I hope you can understand why the committee viewed this as a GCS problem and not a Mill Cities problem. We discontinued the waiver policy this year after a unanimous vote to do so (BTW that included GCS's vote). At this point it is fair to say that as far as the Mill Cities Alliance is concerned this issue is dead for 2006. Thanks for the lively discussion. As you know our meetings are always open to anyone who wants to attend and make a proposal for change. I invite you to do so in 2007.

Wow, 5 replies in less than 20 minutes! Seems like I touched a nerve ;)

Look guys, my intention was not to cast Dave in a bad light. I think he's a great guy and he has, on more than one occasion, taken the time to cheerfully respond to my e-mail questions regarding Mount Washington and The Mountain Series. Dave's running resume is legend and his contributions to the New England running scene is immeasurable. In fact, I was the one who recommended to the Gate City E-board that Dave be invited to one of our Club meetings as a guest speaker and I'm glad he accepted.

My intention was also not to suggest that Dave broke the rules. The circumstances which allowed Dave to participate in Mill Cities for WCRC were definitely within the guidelines as laid down by the MCR rules committee. But, I have been told ad-nauseum that the reason for the USATF affiliation rule is to prevent clubs from bringing in "ringers" and ruining the "integrity of the event". Well, if Dave Dunham (3-time Mount Washington Champ) not the very definition of a "ringer", then I don't know what one is!

My intention was to point out the hypocrisy at work here. Even though what occured with Dave was within the rules, no one from the MCR committee can look me in the eye and tell me it was "right". Dave runs all year for CMS but is eligible for MCR because he changed his affiliation for just one race. And, you can be sure that no one asked him to change it for the Toy Trot or Trav's Trail run! But, I have runners who run all year for GCS, organize our events, serve on our committees, volunteer at our races, and score points for us at the NHGP, who are ineligible because they ran one race (Mount Washington) for another USATF club. It just doesn't make sense.

As far as Dave volunteering to check the club status is concerned, I just thought it was funny that he be the one to do it. That's all. I'm sure he'll do a fair and thorough job (although I'll decline the invitation to assist). I just wish we could rely on clubs to police themselves in the "Camaraderie" of what's fair and just.

Oh, and one more thing. If you're not a "fox", what's with the tail? :p

Ouch! Grayhound :-(

Looking forward to the meeting Wednesday.

I also should mention that "History" is one of the reasons I've run the MCR. I truly enjoy this race. I've run for GLRR twice (in the 80's), the WCRC (in the 90's and in '04), the Rogue Runners (in the 2000's) and a team of all "Dave's". I've run every leg but the first, and done this race for ONE reason: camaraderie

I enjoy seeing all of the familiar faces from over the years that I've run and raced in the Merrimack Valley.

Hi Dave, I'll be at the GCS meeting Wednesday and look forward to seeing you and listening to your talk.

Mike, everything Dave did two year's ago was above board and with my knowledge. He played by the rules as he always has during the 26 years I've known him. BTW Dave is more of a grayhound these days then a fox :-)

BTW: Steve, Dave, Mike if you'd like to discuss this personally I'd be happy to talk with you.

dave.dunham@comcast.net

Cool. Mike thinks I'm a "fox".

I cannot find any rule on the Mill City Relay's that I would be violating by legally changing my USATF club affiliation at any time I chose. I have been a member of the Winner's circle for many years (I have also been a member of the Rogue runners and I'm currently a member of Hockomock Swamp Rat's and Western Mass. AC). My reasons for being a member of CMS for USATF purposes are my own, my reasons for being a member of WCRC are for fun events such as the Trav's trail run, the Merrimack 2/4/6 mile, the Hangover Classic, and other events such as Mill City.

Mike, if you don't trust my ability to check memberships, perhaps you would be willing to assist in the process? I am willing to help this year as I did two years ago.

Edited by author 11-13-2006 04:17 PM
To explain: It's ironic that the most recent (and obvious) subversion of the intent of the USATF membership rule was done on Dave Dunham's behalf by the Winners Circle Running Club. Dave was (and still is) an active member of the Central Mass Striders. And, CMS is not part of the Mill Cities Alliance. But, in 2004, Dave was able to run on the WCRC Men's Masters team because he switched his USATF affiliation to WCRC before the race and then switched it back to CMS afterwards. And, while I have no reason to believe that Dave wouldn't do a fine (and honest) job as a USATF "number checker" (if in fact he really wants to do it), it's just a little like allowing the fox to count the eggs in the hen house. Therefore, irony.

Edited by author 11-13-2006 03:52 PM
Guys, you'll have to excuse my ignorance, but I really don't get the irony comment? Maybe that, in a certain way, is also ironic that I don’t’ understand what you mean:-) As for the service that DD has offered, this is a blessing IMHO. It will help preempt race day disputes. Last year a number of our board members had their day ruin when they had to preside over a race day dispute. BTW that is the reason we held up the results for such a long time. This disupte effected everyone since we had a later than usual awards ceremony. This may come as a surprise to some, but we do have a process in place to address disputes/grievances. Although not used every year, this process has served us well over a long period of time. As for clubs outside the Merrimack Valley, we have several existing Mill Cities Alliance members that fit this criteria (i.e., Somerville RR, GAC, North Shore Striders) and this year we very happy to announce we will have two more -- Mystic Runners (Medford) and the Shamrock Runners (Woburn). Both these new clubs will be limited to two teams each. Unfortunately we need to be somewhat restrictive to make sure we can handle the additional capacity at our hall. I have spoken to both organizations and they understand our situation. MCR is a very popular event, as evidence by the five clubs currently on our waiting list, however we have found through the years that clubs have come and clubs have gone, some clubs have grown while other clubs have shrunk so the mixture of the clubs is always changing to match this dynamic.

Edited by author 11-13-2006 02:47 PM
Michael Wade writes :
<<That, my friends, is what's called "irony".>>

You betcha. I've written at least 3 posts here today but deleted them before I sent them.

It will be interesting to see which runners won't be allowed to run this year because they broke a rule. We can be comforted to know that a number of teams from outside the Merrimack Valley have been invited to run.

That, my friends, is what's called "irony".

That would be a tremendous help. I will email you the teams as they come in. All teams must be submitted by Nov 26, so you'll have a few days to do the check and this will allow me time to notify any teams of violations.

So, is someone on the Mill City board going to check membership status (USATF) for all runners who take part in the race?

If you are looking for a volunteer to do so, I'd be happy to.....

Edited by author 10-29-2006 12:12 PM
Perhaps I truly am the one that doesn't get it. It looks like "anti-runner" stuff is alive and well in the northern hinter lands.

This from the New Hampshire Grand Prix "group think" department at the end of the just completed series. This was about a runner be told not all the "I"s were dotted or the "T"s being crossed, so the runner was SOL.

=========================================================== =

To be a Granite Runner, it is not enough to have to run in all the races: you are required to register as representing your club in all the races. Lynn Wiles was not registered as part of the GDTC team in the Jackson race.

We had this same problem last year with two GSRT runners. It isn't fair to count someone as a Granite Runner candidate if that runner doesn't represent his or her club in an NHGP race.

Please note that at last year's meeting the clubs discussed and voted that any results corrections must be reported before leaving the race site (as long as those results were posted at the race site to give everyone a fair opportunity to report errors such as missing club affiliations). It is the responsibility of the runners to check the results on site to make sure their age, gender, and club affiliation are correct. You can help by stressing this to your team members.

I congratulate Lynn Wiles on his active participation in the series and am sorry that he doesn't qualify as a Granite Runner this year.

Michael,
I’m not sure what “While allowing those that run in USATF events for other teams (but without a number) the ability to pick and choose which MCR club they run for.” means, but I think you make an excellent suggestion re: submitting a club membership roster prior to the relay. Or perhaps simply a roster of those runners who might be in the particular situation we are discussing.
And clearly, there’s nothing to prevent a determined club or individual from subverting the intent(s) of our current rule, which is to prevent “outsiders” from participating in the relay (We want it to continue to be a special event reserved just for Mill Cities Club members) and to prevent any MCR club from becoming overly competitive in one way or another. And as Steve Moland points out, there’s nothing to prevent a runner from joining a MCR club purely for the purpose of running in the relay. But our present rule does a lot to eliminate this possibility. Granted, and unfortunately, at the expense of bona fide club members such as you mention.
We did discuss this rule at our recent meeting. The general upshot (as I interpret it) being that:
1. before the rule was in place, there were numerous attempts by various clubs and individuals to win the club trophy or individual categories by hook or by crook…
2. the rule has prevented this from happening since it’s been in place.
3. let’s keep it in place.

A formal vote was not taken, however, it was pretty clear what the outcome would have been.
Hopefully, with the help of suggestions such as yours, we’ll come up with an acceptable solution to this problem.
Marshall McCloskey
MVS representative, MCR board

Actually Dave, according to the USATF web-site, the 90 day clock starts from the athletes last race with their current USATF team. So, they can apply for a change of affiliation anytime provided that its been 90 days or more since their last USATF race. And, even the 90 day rule has a loophole. An athlete can petition to have the rule waived provided they get a letter from their current USATF team granting them a release.

Just for the record there is a 90 day waiting period to switch club affiliation. This would require an athlete to change affiliation by September 3 in order to be eligible for MCR.

Matt,
Ethics should prevent you from calling your sub-15min 5k friends, not MCR rules.
If you can get your sub-15min 5k friends to join your running club 1st, then by all means sign them up. I have no problem with that. Increasing membership is the goal of most clubs.
As Mike said, clubs can (and have) legally bypassed this rule by having the runner change USATF club affiliation...at least for the MCR. So the rule really doesn't prevent anything, just makes it more difficult for the clubs who want to win at any cost, and prevents runners from me participating because I won't change affiliation just to run a relay....even though I'm a member of a MCR club.
But at least we don't have chaos anymore......:-0

Matt - Unfortunately, the rule as currently stated does not prevent you from doing exactly what you describe. In fact, if someone wanted to win badly enough they could have their “ringers” change USATF club affiliation before the relay, run the race, then change back afterwards. It’s completely legal but if that’s not a subversion of the intent of the rule, then I don’t know what is.

What the rule does do however is penalize a runner who plays by the book and becomes a registered USATF member. While allowing those that run in USATF events for other teams (but without a number) the ability to pick and choose which MCR club they run for. This is the reason, I think, for all the unhappy runners.

In our case, the runners that are affected by the rule (runners like Steve Wolfe, Rich Stockdale, Tom Kolb, Damien Rowe & Steve Moland) are not “ringers” recruited from outside our club. They are, in fact, the very face of Gate City. These guys have been active GCS for years. The have held positions within our club, directed our races, volunteered at our club functions, and run with us year after year scoring points for us in our Grand Prix. But, because they chose to run one race with another slightly more competitive USATF club, they are all currently ineligible to run on a scoring MCR team.

So, in effect, what we’re saying to these folks is, “To be eligible to score for your club at MCR you must make one of the following 3 choices”: 1.Give up your USATF number, 2. Run at a less competitive level, or 3. Subvert the rules. Some choice. It doesn’t send a real good message to our membership, does it?
 
A more sensible alternative would be to submit a team roster of paid members a month prior to the relay. Then, if there is any question as to a runners “real” club there would be a membership committee to decide if he/she should be eligible. Of course, I realize that with this solution comes some grey area. But, that’s what the grey matter (our brain) is for. I, for one, suggest we all start using them.

Sincerely,

Michael Wade
GCS Competition Coordinator

Edited by author 10-24-2006 12:12 PM
I must say I am enjoying the banter and I’m impressed that there is so much passion around this event. However, I need to take a quick time out from the discussion to give you a status report from our organizational meeting last night.

First I am pleased to announce the winner of this year’s Phil Quinn award is Steve Burton of the Somerville Road Runners. Sadly, as many of you know, Steve passed away earlier this year. Steve made our sport a better place and the relay just won’t be the same without his presence.

We also decided to give away a combination medal/key chain/bottle opener as this year’s memento. This is a really cool item and will be designed in the likeness of the Ayer Clock Tower in downtown Lawrence. We will also be inviting two additional clubs to the race the Mystic Road Runners and the Shamrock Running Club. Both clubs will be allowed to enter two teams each.

We also reviewed the changes for this year’s event and encourage all member clubs to communicate these changes to their members.


Start: The Sunshine Start at the Lowell Technical School will start at 9:00 AM.

Leg 1: In Hudson runners will cross Lowell Road (Rte 3A) at the intersection of Central Street and Lowell Road. After crossing the bridge this is the first intersection on the course with a traffic signal. Runners will run the rest of the leg on the left side of the road to the first exchange area.

Leg 4: An official water stop will be manned on Leg 4.

Leg 5: The Sunset Start (mass start at the start of leg 5) has been moved from 11:00 AM to 11:15 AM.
 
The length of the last leg is 4.75 miles due to the change of the finish location.

Finish: This year’s race will finish at The Claddagh at 399 Canal Street, Lawrence, MA. The post race celebration will be held upstairs.

This relay is a very special event. Remember it only takes a few individuals causing problems that could result in a town on the course denying permission for the event and resulting in the cancellation of the relay. Don’t be that individual.

Obey the rules and have a great time.

I made this statement at the MCR meeting and want to make it for this message board regarding this issue. Because the problem is actually bigger than the Gate City/Moose Milers issue.

If you remove the rule then there is nothing to stop me from calling a couple of friends of mine that run sub 15 minute 5k's from running for the Sisu Project at the relay. Suddenly, my men's open team has four sub 15 minute 5K runners. This ups my chances of winning that division considerably. Although my team is not going to win the relay due to only entering a couple teams a year, I've just potentially spoiled a club's chances of vying for the title due to my addition of a couple "ringers."

Edited by author 10-24-2006 11:05 AM
To cut to the chase, guys/gals, what is being said is these disenfranchised runners are essentially screwed. There is nothing they can do. GCS can't solve it. There is only one entity who has any room to move.

The MCR rule addresses a problem that does not exist in the area and has not existed for a very long time.

The area running clubs are no longer falling all over themselves to trounce the other clubs at races and in a series, any series.

The rule was for a different era, and the comment that was made about 23 years of tradition is right on. Traditions can be great but they can be so damaging when they remember how things were instead of how they are.

Depending on who you talk to on the MCR committee you get varying degrees of being rebuffed. If you push the discussion you eventually will get "It's a Gate City problem" as they have nothing left to tell you.

Gate City can't solve it because it threw out the baby with the bath water when those that didn't compete ruled the day and made some decisions that drove competing runners into the arms of another lover in a manner of speaking. Those runners are disenchanted. Disenchanted people are not good for inclusiveness. The flow of the river is down stream. If Gate City falters seriously from this, will the dam just below the Lowell Boat House check the affliction.

If MCR truly wants to foster running in the Merrimack Valley it should be really concerned that the NH part of the Valley has some serious problems in declining competitiveness. What better way than to throw gasoline on the smoldering fire for the northern contingent than to continue with a policy that in 2006 is based on "pride" rather than any observable or suspect problem.

I'm one of those effected by Gate City's stupidity in essentially causing the Moose Milers to come into existence. I'm eligible to run in MCR but I'm electing to not run as the GCS thing compounded by some MCR "group" intransigence has removed any "FUN" that once existed at MCR for me, but then does it matter as long as order is still maintained in the provinces. Ah, the guardians of order.

Yes it's a GCS problem but only MCR can help stop the bleed from moving down river. Is there not some form of mutually assured destruction at work here?

Marshall,
Thank you for at least sympathizing with me. I think I understand now what you (MCR) were trying to solve but I still have a question of what you mean by 'recruit'.
If clubs were recruiting fast runners from non-MCR clubs who had no affiliation with the MCR club that was recruiting...well that's a no-brainer is is blatantly wrong. I'm with you 100%.
However, what if these faster runners actually became (or were) members of the MCR club? In otherwords, they filled out an application and paid their dues. Would you still consider this recruiting? Some may not like their method, but these runners are now members of a MCR club in my eyes.
I think what Steve Wolfe was saying was "why not just have a rule that runners must be a member of a MCR club?" Period.
Maybe it's over-simplifying the problem as Skip says but a member is a member, no matter how active on inactive, or no matter who that member decides to race for on other occasions.
Still Unhappy Runner

To “Unhappy Runner”, with whom I sympathize, the problem being addressed is:
A club could recruit runners specifically to run for them in the relay and/or competitive (in every sense of the word) runners might recruit a club simply for the purpose of experiencing another “win” under their belts, say, in some particular category, such as open men…

Steve Wolfe says “.....it's up to the MCR clubs to be honest with themselves and put together teams that truly represent their clubs. You shouldn't have to police them, they should police themselves...”

That is, of course, the ideal, but, human nature being what it is, both of the above have happened in the past. So how to make sure it doesn’t happen to the detriment of the MCR clubs who are honest, or might be tempted, was the problem faced by the MCR board.

USATF came up with a simple solution to the same problem. You have to declare an affiliation with only one club, and can compete (score) in USATF events only with/for them for the year. All the Mill Cities clubs are also members of USATF-NE. The most straightforward thing to do seemed to be to adopt the same rule for the relay. It at least identifies what club affiliation is the choice of any particular runner.

But as Steve and “unhappy runner” point out, not all the Mill Cities Clubs actively participate in USATF-NE events, so members of these clubs who want the full experience of both running as individuals and with a team in USATF races have to forgo the Mill Cities Relay according to the current rule, even though their USATF-NE affiliation is with a non MCR club. And that is, I think, with honest runners such as themselves and their clubs, to the detriment of the MCR event.

But recognize that a USATF affiliation with a non MCR club is actually the red flag we’re hoping can be used to prevent abuses such as e.g. a group of BAA or CMS runners being recruited by a club, or deciding themselves to compete for a club as indicated above. And this rule would work in such an instance.

So how to include in good faith, runners such as Steve and “unhappy” in the relay?
A suggestion for consideration:
Perhaps a brief letter from any runner in the above situation indicating his desire to participate in the relay and his reason(s) for competing for another club in USATF-NE events, co-signed by the the president of his Mill City Club, to be received within (this year anyway) 3 weeks before the event?

Marshall McCloskey
MVS representive, MCR board

First, I am and was very aware of this rule when I decided to run with MMM in January. I knew in January when I USATF registered with MMM that I would not be running MCR. This is not a personal issue for me. It would be nice to be able to run for my club though (GCS). This rule seems more like a way to punish runners who run for Moose then to protect your 23 year old institution.
I have no idea what you mean about OPEN membership. It was not proposed by me. But I am a member of a MCR club and I'm not allowed to run in the MCR. It's funny I'm the only one who sees a problem with that. But I'm not on the board so apparently I'm not capable of understanding the Chaos that I might cause if I were to run..
If you want to understand what I mean by 'fringe' runners, talk to your fellow board member, it was he who brought up the term.
And just to be clear, although Gate City may be involved in USATF, it is only in the senior division which you fail to mention. The reason I run for Moose is because Gate City does not compete or field teams in the Masters division.
So if you're happy with the rule and you feel this is the best way to avoid chaos, then stick with it. I just thought it was also affecting some runners and MCR clubs that weren't contributing to the chaos..You're not punishing me, you're punishing the Gate City Striders.
Good luck with your relay.

For several years, I have run for two different clubs at Mill Cities, only scoring for one club. So, "Unhappy Runner", why don't you consider doing that?
The relay is a unique concept, a fun event and a family reunion of the local running community. Why pick it apart?

Dear Steve/Unhappy Runner,

You have oversimplified the problem of crossover runners, and underestimated the difficulties the current MCR rules have addressed--addressed to fix past probems and addressed to prevent future difficulties. The reason the MC Relay works so well is because of the rules we have set in place. And all rules have been thouroughly discussed and debated by all 16 member clubs (all clubs are represented by one vote).

If we had open membership, which is what you are proposing, all fairness would be out the window, and all control would be eliminated. Taken to the extreme, open membership and open transfer would destroy what the MCR was founded for--competition and celebration/camaraderie between members of all participating clubs, and only participating clubs.

There are members of these clubs who belong to multiple clubs, and that has never been a problem. Even members of the Board (myself included) belong to several clubs. But that is not relevant to this issue. However, when it comes to Mill Cities there has to be a definition as to how membership is defined and determined. Our problem has never been that members of Mill Cities clubs can choose which team to run for. The problem is and always has been bringing in runners from outside clubs to run for a Mill Cities club, even though these runners compete regionally or nationally under another USATF Club's colors. Fortunately this has not been a problem in recent years because these rules were put in place. But if the rules were removed, we would be back to chaos.

USATF competition is the clearest and most definitive way to determine competitive membership--very clear cut. Mill Cities USATF affiliation is not a relevant factor--USATF shoould not sanction a closed, invitation only event. But membership within USATF determines where runners decide to compete. Runners can only be registered with ONE USATF club, unlike RRCA and other affiliations. I don't know what you mean by fringe runners; there are no fringe (outside) runners in this event. Only members are eligible to run on scoring teams.

Please understand that this institution (Mill Cities Relay) has been going now for 23 years. All aspects of administering this event, all member club issues, and all rule changes have been carefully considered. You are personally affected by one of these rules. However, the need to maintain the rules we have is inarguable. Oversimplification, and being dismissive of the overall alliance will not change that.

We made an exception last year because of these unusual circumstances. (I proposed the one-year exception/compromise.) And we made the rules very clear to all on USATF membership. It is possible to change club affiliations with USATF, as you well know. These rules have never been a problem since they were put in place, simply because up to last year everyone understood them quite well.

And just to be clear, Gate City does not simply compete locally. We are and have been heavily involved in USATF regionally and nationally. We have hosted many USATF-NE championships. We earned two national championships this year, and have had five individuals win top three medals in national events. On this issue, there simply is no reasonable argument.

Edited by author 10-15-2006 06:02 AM
Hi Dave,
I'm with Unhappy Runner on this one. I'm an active, paying member of GCS but for whatever reason, GCS doesn't actively participate in USATF-sanctioned events...and that's ok. I'm ok with a running club being 'local'. However, for some of us, USATF events give us opportunities to compete with runners at a different level and at different events, so I run with Moose Milers at these events. But because ONE of the MCR clubs recruited 'fringe' members you felt you needed to regulate this. To me, fringe or active doesn't matter: as long as they are members. You don't think clubs recruit non-USATF 'fringe' members for MCR? I think it's a bit short-sighted if you believe only active members participate in MCR.
I don't think it's up to the MCR board to determine whether MCR club members are 'active' or 'fringe'.....it's up to the MCR clubs to be honest with themselves and put together teams that truely represent their clubs.
You shouldn't have to police them, they should police themselves...
regards,
Steve Wolfe
GCS Member
MMM Member

Unhappy runner, as a memeber of the Board for some 18 years let me try to explain our rule here.

The rule came into play when one of the MCR clubs recruited some frige members of their club that had been actively running USATF-Registered races for another club outside of the MCR. Essentially, though techinically registered with the participating Club, they really did not complete with them in team/club events they competed with their USATF club. The bottom line they went after these guys to boost their clubs chances in winning, i.e. they were ringers. It didn't matter that they didn't run for them the rest of the year

It just didn't seem fair that a club could actively go out and recuit runners, and most runners who are registered are generally the better runners, to run for their club just for the Relay. That is not what it is all about.

So in order to protect the integrity of the event we insitiuted this rule. If not clubs could very well sign some "ringer" up who races all year long with say the BAA but now wants to particpate in the Relay and they want him. It would really not be in the best interest of what we are all about.

The long and short of it is. If you are registered with another club chances are you are a pretty darned good runner and you are competing with that registered club either because your other club doesn't actively participate in the USATF series or they are just not that compititve enough.

Hey, if you that active with your MCR club register with them and get them active in USATF.

I am a member of four clubs, but not USATF with any of them. The again I'm a 7 min. miler and no one is knocking on my door to be on their "A" team.

So what the problem we are trying to solve here is keeping ringers from just jumping in to boost a clubs chances of winning.

I hope you can understand that

Dave LaBrode

BAA
GLRR
AS
WCRC

If I'm a paying, active member of a Mill City member team, why do you care if I'm USATF-registered with another club? This isn't even a USATF event.
Because I'm USATF-registered with a non-Mill City member team I get penalized and can't run, but others can be members of multiple Mill City member clubs and pick and choose which club to run with without penalty.
Exactly what problem are you trying to solve?

Twenty-five members of the Mill Cities Alliance met on Aug 28 to discuss this year’s relay and several important changes have been instituted. The first change is the finish location. This year’s race will finish at the Claddagh Pub in Lawrence, MA. The Claddagh is about a block away from where the first MCR finished 23 years ago. This changes the length of the last leg from 5.9 miles to 4.75 miles. Entries to this year’s event will close on November 26. No entries will be accepted after this date. The Sunshine Start has been move to 9:00 AM from 8:30 AM. The Sunset Start (mass start at the start of leg 5) has been moved from 11:00 AM to 11:15 AM per Dave Tyler’s suggestion. The committee felt this would allow more teams to experience the relay baton exchange while not impacting the overall finish too much. There will be no special exemptions from the USATF club affiliation rule this year.