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WOW! I and some of the women Inam closely connected with have been feeling these same things for the past year! to hear that others are where we are is both encouraging and disheartening! I personally beleive it has to do with our connection, our closeness, our dependence, our relationship, with God....Is He our focus or has programming and numbers become our focus? I am a great believer in becoming a part of the solution ...therefore, I am left wondering what I (we) can do to change this. I believe that in my own church fellowship we need to help people become connected - with each other and with their Savior....

Father God, Ignite the flame once again in your people!!!!!

Thanks Karen for adding your voice to this discussion. It encourages me tremendously that I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE.

If anyone else pops into this forum would you answer me this question:

What do you imagine the collective body of Christ, aka The Church, to look like and act like? I'd love to hear it.

I just read this post and this is almost 100% exactly the sentiment I have been coming to over the past several months. It's almost like I could have written it myself! The concept of not just doing church but being the church, being the incarnate Christ to one another and to our community, and really being a community of believers knit together where our lives just don't intersect on Sunday morning and no other time during the week.... These ideas are definitely moving me outside my comfort zone of how I've known and done church for years, but I know that Jesus wants so much more for His Church that what we are now.

I just glanced down to read one of the other comments: "Connecting on a deep level takes time and trust." That is definitely true, yet as we set the stage for being vulnerable, others will step out in faith and do the same. We as believers take for granted the Christian fellowship we have with one another. As we see our sinfulness and are honest about that before our Heavenly Father and come to value the redemption we have in Christ more and more, only then can we begin to feel the freedom to be honest with one another and take off our masks. I have just read Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and am in the process of re-reading & digesting it. I would recommend it highly. We in the American church do not value Christian community as we ought, and do not really begin to see the blessings God has for us when we do become vulnerable and open with one another. I know there is so much more to it than that and in my journey, I am only beginning to scratch the surface in understanding I believe God has for me and for His Church.

Let's all be praying for God to light a fire in the Church and especially for the leadership of our churches.

How kind of OTM to rerun my story (thanks Jim).

Paul, thank you for your warm words.

Since I wrote this article my husband and I were churchless for a while. A couple of months ago we dipped our toe back in and are now becoming a part of a church here in Portland known as The Bridge. Perhaps I'll write about it in the future. This church is the most un-churchy church I have ever been a part of in twenty years. It resembles a tavern more than a church. If you're curious to check them out go to www.the-bridge-pdx.org

I am continuously surprised at how many people are experiencing a sense of upheaval in the body of Christ. I am convinced that there is a conspiracy going on and that the Holy Spirit probably has something to do with it.

I am looking forward to writing more about my spiritual wilderness and how God has messed up my religion. (title of my book in progress)

Pam,

Joining this discussion late. Just read your original post. Wow. The church could really use more people with your clear perspective. Please know that you're welcome back to the "inside" any time.

Paul

Re: connecting on deep levels, being vulnerable, and such seems to be a trait some find essential for satisfying relationships in the church. Looking at this closely makes me wonder why we find this needful. Can't we be satisfied simply relating with people at the level they are capable of giving of themselves? I dare say most people do not start out deciding to "hide" from their brothers and sisters, but rather give of themselves as they feel comfortable. My comfort level may not be the same as yours. Connecting on a deep level takes time and trust. It cannot be made it happen - it occurs when brother A is comfortable with brother B and vice versa. I wonder if we ought rather relax and enjoy one another and accept what we each can give to the relationship. I believe we would then (a) enjoy one another more, (b) be blessed by what our brother does share with us, and (c) be more satisfied with what we do find in the Body.

I agree with you Jack. I think that we (as a whole) don't connect on very deep levels. The fear of being vunerable is very real. The thought of someone taking advantage of us or abusing our vunerability is very real. I have been in a large church were the relationships were very surface, nothing deep and meaningful. We all worked for the 'greater good' of the organization. Heck, we didn't even have time to fellowship. We were too busy in meetings, training sessions or..well, more meetings! The thought of letting down our walls was unbearable to think of. Even the thought of someone seeing my faults or weaknesses was absolutely taboo.
  Do you know what? I have come to think that often our relationship with the Lord can reflect on how we relate to others (not exclusively) But, when we are not entering into deeper levels of intimacey with the Lord, how are we going to connect with others on a deeper level. There is an intimacey problem with God's people. And it starts with us connecting with Him in a deeper way. Then our relationships with one another can have the chance to reflect that.

I long for meaningful relationships. Thank God I am now in a place where I am able to give that to others and recieve it. God brought me to a church where I have been able to connect with people and enter into true 'covenant' relationships. People see me as I am and I see them as they are. No pretense, no pretending. Just living real Christianity in front of real people with out the fear of being rejected. It's very freeing.

I am looking to find people interested in filling out a survey on related church issues for school which can be found at: http://sausurvey.speedsurvey.com

Any help would be much appreciated! It should only take about 5 minutes.

Thanks!

Edited by author 12-08-2005 01:10 PM
Interesting discussion. And yet I have heard these issues raised in the past forty years since I became a Christian, In fact when I read Paul's letters to the different churches, I see similar issues in today's church. Small groups can work or they can be devasting. Home churches can be the same. We pray that first we can be real with all the people we interact with during each day. We pray that God would bring people into our lives that allow us to connect at a deeper level.

People have a desire and a fear of being close. We hunger for a deeper connection, but fear the vulnerableness it requires of us. Also how do we learn to move beyond the facade that we have lived behind for some many years. Learning to trust in what seems to be an untrust worthy world is very scary.

A lot of it begins with our own relationship with God. Knowing that no matter what others may say, I know that I am loved by God with all my warts, faults, quirks, et al. Then I know that in ways that I cannot completely fathom that God can and does use me to reveal a little bit of His heaven on earth. This is in my home, work, church, social settings or wherever I go.

I attend a very large church (18-20,000 weekly). It is very hip, cool, with it and almost all the other postmodern ideas. Its small group is like going to a spa, it is a warm friendly environment, but no lasting effect.

I go to church for the corporate worship. I have given up the idea of any lasting indepth relationships. Sometimes I connect for the moment at conferences or through other sources. They are only momentary. In some small groups that I have been in that lasted for a while, but disbanded. I still maintain a memory and a connection when I see others.

The hard part is being in a highly mobile society that I experience constant change in groups and memberships. There are very few long lasting relationships. So you seize the brief encounters with others and enjoy. You also remain open for the opportunities when they occur again.

Very interesting article. It is a divine unrest, a holy agitation. I have seen man made, dead structure, flesh driven programs and corporate Church that squeezes the life out of almost everything that is born of the Spirit. Anything that does not fit into our 'Church mold' or challenges the structures we have so tediously built, upsets people. When the divine, shifting winds of the Spirit start to blow we feel the need to control and harness Him. We think 'order' in the church is set by ourselves and not by Jesus and His Word, then when we percieve something that challenges us as 'out of order'. I suspect God is tiring of man made kingdoms and desires to have His own established, on His terms. I heard a man of God say 'We must have courage for the Kingdom'. Courage to change, courage to have things done differently. Courage to 'be' rather than to 'appear'. There is a price to pay. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken. That's not a bad thing. God is doing a new thing and He will find people who will embrace what He is wanting to do. I desire to be one of those people. Do I have a full picture and have all the answers, no. The good thing is I don't need too, because He does!
  The world cries out for people who are relevent and real. We need to be able to give them heart felt, anointed answers and not scripted religious dialoge. My heart longs for real, humble people who are truly intimate with Jesus and who don't hide behind their positions, programs or religious ways. We owe it to the lost to show them Jesus and not 'Institutionalized Christianity'.

It is great to hear people on the "west" coast thinking about such issues. My friend and I are working with a young (four years old) church and are seeking to have authentic Christianity displayed. Question, how are you (anyone) reaching the "lost" with the entire message of the gospel? We are desiring to allow the lost to experience John 10:10 as they interact with us but it seems like since many people are "religousized" they do not understand that Christianity is more than heaven and hell but it has to deal with people being restored to the image which God had once intended us to be.

we also have many friends that contributed to a blog we created at www.xanga.com/inaweofgod Much of our thoughts are shared with yours.

Steve

Wow, awesome article. The disillusionment is real and as a leader who is praying through the blue print of how church should be, this has been a source of deep agonizing prayer for me since I planted one 5 years ago. Disillusionment is the unraveling of the illusion of what we have called "Church".
It is time to "stop doing church and instead be the church."
We are currently experimenting on what Acts 2:42-47 ;4:32-34 in very practical ways and the bottom line for us is that it really bites in a serious way to pay the price to be the church but I see no other option do you? Love to have some specific things that you folks seeing in your groups.

I agree with suziegjo

Jim, I am puzzled by your request to move on. What would that look like to you?

Everybody, I have greatly appreciated your contributions to this conversation. It's been affirming to know I am not alone in my thoughts and struggles. I am encouraged to perceive this struggle as the Holy Spirit drawing seekers closer to God and equally respectful of the admonition to not fall into the same organizational traps we are currently challenging. I hope we can move forward in seeking God with humility, knowing we will never become the perfect leaders we seek.

Hi Esther, Yes, I remember meeting you, too! I had hoped to talk with you some more about Hong Kong. I lived there for years, met my husband there and had my wedding there (he's American).

I am honored by your request. Thank you for your kind words. I have some questions for you and need to have a private email conversation with you. Email me at jamnperry@comcast.net

I look forward to hearing from you Esther.

Hi, Pam,
I've met you at the Seattle Conference. I want to ask for your permission to translate your article into Chinese. I used to work in the TV production and I am a professional translator.
May I? You are a good writer. Keep at it.
Esther

Jim - why do you say this thread is becoming a little too religious for you? The point of the article was how church has become religious (a culture unto itself) and left Pam wanting more. The point currently being made in the thread is that man creates religion, but most "seekers" (truly a remnant) really just want to know and experience God, and they want to know HOW. If you want to alway seek and never find, go ahead, but don't seek God then, seek someone else because God made it clear that if you seek you will find, if you seek with all your heart.
That said, if the thread is dead that's fine too. Whatever.

Pam

I don't know about you but all of this is drifting into a a little too much religion for me - I think we need to put this one to bed. Thanks for all who shared and lets move on

Jim

Brethren:

As the thread grows it becomes clearer. We are at a familiar crossroads. A crossroads that has appeared many times over countless centuries. Let me explain:

God’s people move in cycles as does much of His Creation. Today, many are sensing a low point. This, as it always does, gives way to a crying out to God. He will answer, we will rejoice, and, in time, we will tire of His answer – the ”new thing” - and take it for granted. It will de-grade into programs, methods and liturgies that will impact us less and less until we reach point where we are again dissatisfied. This is very similar to the pattern found in Judges. God’s people were dissatisfied, they cried out to Him, He delivered them and they rejoiced, and settled into their newfound relationship with Him. After some time they become dissatisfied again, slowly moved away from His Way, and eventually drifted into dissatisfaction and again cried out to Him. Sound familiar?

And this happens over and over in the Church How and why do we let it? Simple. We are hu-man. Each moving of God sets up the potential for a new, joyous relationship with God. When we hear His ground rules we readily agree only to slowly add our input for continuing this new found joy. WE get into the mix while He simply wants us to “Seek me with our whole heart….”. We want something more intricate – a something we can “do” – a way we can develop things, lead the parade, and be more than a needy sinner. The corporate Christian takes over, the curricu-lum writer decides what we need, the songwriter embellishes God’s simplicity, the pastor decides to lead instead of follow, congregants cry for human leadership rather than a vibrant, growing, personal relationship with their Creator.

Today, many are sensing spiritual unrest – this truly seems to be Holy Spirit led. We need to al-low Him to scratch the itch, guide our search, formulate the direction. The OT reveals the con-cept of remnant, and so there will be a drawing together of today’s searchers. As we identify one another we need to be careful not to systematize and organize ourselves into another formally identified entity. Need and common purpose produce a fellowship of the needy, which, in time, can morph into an organization, a movement, and a denomination – all with their formalized leadership, membership, constitution, headquarters, conventions, and books, tapes and CDs.

Perhaps we can learn from the most positive example of how God moved the Church in China during the past 50+ years. Forced by circumstances to remain in a form that defied the traditions of the very groups that brought them Christianity, they grew in the shadows, prospered without formal organizational ties, and were forced to depend on the Holy Spirit for direction, leadership, teaching, and finances. They truly are a witness to dependence on God alone.

Pam-
You have shared many of my own feelings, and as I read through the posts I've heard a common thread through most of them - the discontentment with the status quo as determined by the current church culture. Eileen said, "...there are a growing number of people who yearn for more beyond the nicely packaged programs and seek a greater authenticity and vulnerability." I believe that much of what people are feeling stems from growing more mature in God's Word, and in the process they have found out that God's Word and cultural christianity don't line up. One of them has to give way to the other, so the choice becomes, "go with the flow (figuratively and maybe literally - as I have heard from leadership about not creating a flow within a flow)" or following the spirit of God in a much more organic, wholistic way.
Pam, you asked Bob when he began to sense this pulling; while I cannot speak for Bob, I can tell you my own experience. I grew up in the church (same charismatic/Word of Faith church now for 26 yrs.) yet I'm still fairly young (32). And for a long time I've known that God's plan for me wasn't full time "ministry" as we currently know it, but there was a shift coming to how church is done, a shift that doesn't compromise message or sacrifice principles, but is done in a way that allows for today's world culture to relate to it (sorry, it's hard to describe something you've only glimpsed in your spirit): and somehow I would be involved in it. Perhaps current church leadership isn't aware of the shift coming or maybe that God's plan doesn't include them (I won't speak against leadership, that's a sure-fire way to disqualify yourself). Somehow what is resonating in myself and others is not resonating the same way with the church leadership I am familiar with, but to try to communicate it is like speaking another language, or worse, being viewed as a rebel. My discontent really excellerated when I began much more earnestly seeking God. As a result of my pursuit I've become increasingly concerned that my everyday life had a form of godliness but denied it's power. In seeing it in myself I've seen it all over the church. The church has become a hangout for corporate christians more concerned about it's own self interests than a community gathering place. We are a company that only hires those that fit the corporate image and will contribute to the bottom line, instead of a fellowship revolving around a relationship with Christ. One day soon that will change. It won't involve watering down the message, but it will mean getting out of the way while people who don't fit the right mold come to Jesus and allow Him to change them. We can be holy AND have relationships with currently non-christian people. We can live open lives that show God is working on us and still share our Saviour.
Here's what I seek in the church... leaders that live godly lives out in the open but don't hide their shortfalls, fellow believers who want intimacy with God, and an open fellowship that allows people to touch Jesus.
There is a dissatisfaction and the Holy Spirit is moving because the end is here.

I think the reason for this dissimulation is the time we are living in. God is drawing His people to Himself. He will no longer share them with the worldly infuences(and they are in the church).
I am seeing this seperation happening all over the world. The wicked are becoming more wicked and the Holy are seeking a greater closness with the Most Holy. This is just another sign that the end is near. Look up, my brother and sisters,your redemption draweth nigh.

I like the way you said it Barb:

"In today's Christian world we view dissatisfaction and discontent as feelings to be avoided. Perhaps they are the Holy Spirit stirring us to move from our complacency and respond to Him."

I wonder if this describes tension. Certainly tension, like say, the tension of a wineskin tearing, might feel negative and uncomfortable. Thanks for articulating this Barb.

Bob M. it's nice to meet you. Thank you for your transparency. We need more of that.

You said,
"I am observing from a distance even while sensing a pull, an attraction that just may lead me to other restless, seeking souls."

Can you pinpoint when you began to sense this pulling? Did something trigger your restlessness? I cannot pinpoint my own.

Eileen, {{hug}} , it is humbling to know you found us at a very significant time in your life. Yes, you are not the only one. When your name comes to mind I will agree in prayer for you to have the discernment and clarity you need for what God is calling you to go forward in. These are interesting times to be the church, aren't they?

Thank you for your thoughtful and heart-felt reflections Pam. Indeed, it is unsettling to walk away from a church service and still feel spiritually hungry. Yes, that hunger can be satisfied through a personal and intimate relationship with the Triune God, yet there is sadness that a fuller feast cannot be enjoyed by the larger community. Granted, there are many people who are fed and nourished in our churches. Yet, my sense is that there are a growing number of people who yearn for more beyond the nicely packaged programs and seek a greater authenticity and vulnerability.

I stumbled on this website this morning, and am thankful for the refreshing dialogue started by your posting. I prayed earlier this morning for clarity on what God is calling our church to be about. You see, we are selling our church which was started in 1957. Over the years, it had become increasingly irrelevant to the larger community which I believe Christ had intended that we serve and had become an inward focused club rather than a community centered in Christ. So our decision was to become a "church without walls" -- a community of faith rather than a community anchored in a building. We are just settling the final details of our sale, and now are embarking on an "abiding time" -- abiding in Christ for a couple of months to discern God's call to us and vision for us. So the conversation you started ... and all of the responses you have received ... I believe to be a partial response to our ongoing prayer for discernment and clarity as we abide in Christ. Thank you.

Interesting how something as simple as a thread in a Christian blog-type setting can stir what is just out of the reach of full awareness. Be it discontent or itchiness or whatever, it is that something that has not found rest. I am such a Christian. I long for something in/from the church. I cannot stay settled in “church” environments. I continue to pursue, but never find.

I am a candidate for a spiritual makeover, it appears.

I find myself keeping things with an organized label at arms length. I so want to see the Holy Spirit lead. I stand at the outer edge of the Body looking in for possible answers. I am reluctant to go in new directions and very carefully evaluate them all for potential error or problems. I have done considerable reading about the Emerging Church and am intrigued yet cautious. I am observing from a distance even while sensing a pull, an attraction that just may lead me to other restless, seeking souls.

For many decades I have been doing church in many ways – Bible teacher, pastor, missionary. Despite the professional Christian credentials and extensive experiences, I am still searching – still not quite satisfied. I have recently been looking at home churches anew, but my limited experiences with these does not encourage me to move closer at this point.

I know my way is found in the Holy One who is the Way. I know the answer is not in “people groupings”, whatever the organizational make up. I need to press into Jesus more. My answer is in Him alone. Once I do this, the rest will follow.

Thank you one and all for sharing your thoughts and your hearts – they are comforting and rich food for meditation. Perhaps you will allow me to walk part of my pilgrimage with you.

Thank you, Pam, for your honesty. Perhaps a paradigm shift is in order. In today's Christian world we view dissatisfaction and discontent as feelings to be avoided. Perhaps they are the Holy Spirit stirring us to move from our complacency and respond to Him. Uncomfortable, yes, especially when we don't know how we are to respond. Maybe the "how" doesn't matter as much as the willingness to do so. I believe there is a movement of the spirit within church communities doing just this. For me, I have had to make the decision to let my life become less "manageable", to look less like I expect the christian life to look. It's as if a bus has pulled up, the door has opens and Jesus is the driver. He asks if I want to get on. I ask where He's going and He repeats his question in response. The sign on the front of the bus doesn't indicate a destination. But I've decided to get on. I don't know where I'm going, I don't know the route. I do know the driver and that makes all the difference. I hope we can all continue to ask the hard questions, to resist the pat answers and to refuse to join in with the status quo. Discontent is not the worst thing in the world.In fact, it's a pretty good motivator.

Thanks Sherri for the link and the description. All I can is Wow. I love your creativity!

Ellina, you wrote,
"The answer for me is simply the framework of my day, which includes a lot of time alone with God, in the company of Christ, trying to be in the way of the Holy Spirit - trying to be in a place where the spirit of God will fall...If I didn't have this discipline I believe I would also feel very empty and dissatisfied."
 

Many of the people I wrote about in my article have a deep friendship with Jesus and spend time with Him consistently. Yet their feeling of discontentment remains, not with following Jesus, but rather with the expression of Him, or "clumsy expression" as you put it.

Can people who have an intimate relationship with God experience discontentment in spite of a prayerful life?

We did buy a house for the 'church' to meet in. We bought a big house and all the rooms are dedicated to the spiritual formation of the community of faith that meets here. Several reasons for the change of venue ... we are team led, many of the team being women MDIV's and we're more comfortable with a house and all of it's nuances. Many of the core are well-churched people who totally believe in OA's, but just didn't see our OA conversations ever comfortably leading to inviting our neighbors to 'a building', but to a home for dinner and coffee and conversation ... sure. We also wanted a change from pew and platform to an atmosphere that welcomes relationships. We do no 'marketing', just invites from our OA's. So, we purposefully want to grow slow. Our $ investment in birthing this community is much more wisely invested in property that a few of the core partners co-own. We're automatically 'in a neighborhood' for a relational sphere of influence there ... our backyard is to a public high school! Our 'leadership' models are focused on household language, not business so much. We've met in our Generations Quest house since August ... we're newborn! The house is open for conversation, prayer, study and gatherings as our community needs. You can see a picture of our GQ House at generationsquest.org.
Thanks for asking, Jim.

Pam, as I read your article I sensed the deep hunger for Jesus, and asked myself how it is I can be absorbed totally in church and ministry training, and yet not feel this sense of emptiness. The answer for me is simply the framework of my day, which includes a lot of time alone with God, in the company of Christ, trying to be in the way of the Holy Spirit - trying to be in a place where the spirit of God will fall. I'm a Franciscan sister, and even though I live in my own home and am a single mum still raising two younger children, my day has this solid base. So when I experience the church it is from this foundation, and I feel able to relate to it - to its clumsy expression of Christ on earth. If I didn't have this discipline I believe I would also feel very empty and dissatisfied.
http://franciscansalvationist.blogspot.com
Ellina Rosen

(walks in, throws another log on the fire, curls up on the sofa with a lovely cup of tea)

Wow, Jim, you sure have a lot of visitors over tonight!

Thanks to all for taking time to read my article and then respond. It is interesting to listen to each person's perspective.

Why is this such a hot topic? Is there a genuine move of the Holy Spirit across the body of Christ stirring up a sort of holy discontentment? Is God the one provoking us?

I certainly hope so.

Thanks, Pam, for the insight. I totally agree. About 11 years ago, I earnestly began to seek the Lord for wisdom regarding answers to the question, "What is church, really?" Within 2 months, I began to feel a conviction that "what" was the wrong question - "who" must be the question. From there, He has taken me to a point where I believe 2 basic things about the church:

:: God values being the church (loving God and loving people) and doing life together.

:: Culture is not looking to add another segment to their life. That is why "coming to church" or "inviting people to church" is not connecting. It is not even a Biblical concept. Of the over 140 times that "church" is referred to in the NT, not one is about places or things or events. They are all about people. Culture may again embrace "church" when they understand it to be a "be" and not a "do" and that it is not a segment but the totality of a beyond-self life.

Our church family is all about this. Please check out our website: www.westpointchurch.org

Thanks for the newsletter.

I must say that I agree with Pam. I have been involved with many ministries from the extreme home churches, street preachers and Sunday services. Thru it all I really just wanted a real relationship with Jesus. My story is similar to Pam's, God took me out of everything - every ministry - to teach me 'how to love Him', I protested the Lord when He spoke this to me and I said 'but Lord I do love You' and He responded 'I know you do, now I'm going to teach you how to'...this so much reflected my heart - that I did love serving God more than loving and being with Him. Now my life is radically different and God is teaching me what is important to Him - to love Him with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength! I believe that God is doing something among His people, that HE is stirring the passion in us for more of Him... I hear it so often. I too have had many similar conversations with people who soooo love God. What this will all look like in the end none of us know but it up to us to listen to the voice of God and to the best of our ability discern His voice and obey no matter what we think or how we feel. Somebody that I esteem highly in her walk with Jesus says all the time that we need to be 'laid down lovers of God'....is that a good saying or is that the way we live our lives...how would things look if we live what we spoke? Thanks Pam for sharing your heart with us!

I agree with Tyler. I live in China in a city with cultural diversity, but what i refered to as 'Jesus culture' is doing what Jesus did and more. The 'Jesus culture' is in your everyday life, befriending, praying for those who are sick, letting people know that there is a saviour who loves them and there is eternal life! It should be a natural part of who we are in our everyday lives. I think when we take leaps of faith and act on what we read about in the Bible, life isn't empty any more, it becomes very exciting. I am speaking from experience.
Loved the article Pam.

Why does this topic trigger so much heat?

Why do we feel so deeply and passionately about this issue?

Are these comments truly representative of a larger malaise or are we just an island to ourselves?

Good topic, I am so glad off the map had the courage to post this aricle. It takes more courage to leave the church than stay in it every sunday. when I stop going to a building my eyes really opened up. I go a 12 step group now that is my "church" for now. I used to go to various church buildings my whole life (not counting a few years in the wilderness). Being in a 12 step group helped me realize that I banty around phrases like "child of God" etc when at the core of my being I realized I didn't believe God loved me- that is why I did so much "church" stuff to prove to myself how good I was. It is all nonsense for me - I was self righteous and didn't know it. I stopped going to "church" mostly because I wanted to spend more time with my family and my wife was in college so we had to cut something out of our schedule.
I feel more whole / at peace with God and myself not going to church than rushing around doing a bunch of church stuff that only frustrates my kids and wife because we aren't spending time together.

At some point we need to find a group of believers that we can be a church together, out side of the programs and nonsense.... we haven't found that community yet.

Isn't church empty because in a hundred different ways we're empty?

Pam's experience with her "homegroup" plays out in homegroups everywhere. And even though I wasn't there, I beg to differ with her analysis of their meeting. It was a gripe session neatly disguised as a time of "giving voice to the disillusionment we find ourselves in." Why is it so hard for us to call it what it is?

Plus, without the church Pam attends facilitating smaller groups (i.e. Jesus Communities) how would she have ever ended up in the homegroup she describes? Off-the-Map should flex a little more editorial muscle before pushing this crap on us.

I'm so excited to see this topic up here! I've been thinking tons about why we do this Sunday "event/service/gathering" in light of a church that I'm helping gather together here in the Cincinnati area. Recently there was an article that appeared in the paper here about a mega church where the head guy said that he would do anything short of sin to get someone to come to church and it sparked the question in my brain of "why?" So what do you guys think this disucssion means in light of the values that we should embody on Sunday mornings/evenings or whenever we gather together and what are some ways that we can practically express them?

"I was startled to discover that the center of my life had been church and ministry instead of Jesus. My relationship with Him and with others had become systemized, based on programs and church-navigated activities. In short, (I had become in bondage to – awkward) the religious culture of church." I couldn't say it any better. My husband and I are now wrestling of where to go from here. We both grew up in very traditional churches and have only known that version of christianity. Now with this new revelation we are trying to navigate a new path toward Christ. Thanks for the article---now I know I am not the only one!!!

Here is what we (in my church community) are seeing. Too many programs are pushing the Spirit out the door. People are coming into the church and almost "expected" to start serving. Those of us lay people who lead ministries are subjected to leadership seminars, but the same staff who stand up and teach us one thing are acting another. Some of the "volunteer" concerns I have heard express feelings of just being used for our "gifts" and our DISC. No real focus on Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit unless it is a casual reference.
There are good people who come to this church, who are searching for a relationship with Him, but they are settling for just the busywork of the church.
My small group has discussed this, and we have come to the conclusion that churches feel empty because there is a lack of love.
It is the relational aspect of Christianity that is missing - relationship with each other, and relationship with God. Service is part of the journey, but not the sole path.

i have wrestled with the 'empty church' syndrome since high school (early '70s). for me, my railings against the shortcomings of others usually meant the problem was actually with me. my recent experience has been that when i get outside the church walls and its sanctioned activities, and make an effort to love God and serve people in tangible ways, i am filled in ways a church service cannot touch. perhaps our service outside the church can inform and reshape how we 'do church' when we get together as a group.

Edited by author 11-02-2005 01:11 PM
Sheri

Where is your community of faith located?
What prompted you to make this modification?
Why did you think it was necessary to buy a house just for this purpose (or am I reading it correctly)?
How long have you been gathering using this approach?
Tell us more...

Pam's closing thought is that "'it' is time to stop doing church an start being church". Personally I think she had the answer in her statement of "having a hunger for Jesus". "Off the Map" is a ministry to the lost, and what I am discovering is that I wonder if anyone in the church has ever been lost. If we have never been bankrupt in spirit, or as Jesus says, "Poor in Spirit" we cannot have a hunger for Him. It is impoosible for us to "fellowship in His sufferings" (Phil. 3:10) until we have experienced being found. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding" (Eph. 1:7&8).

My question is, "Does the church in our culture know Christ and His saving grace"? Without knowing Him and His saving grace as a result of being lost there cannot be a community of Christ.

We must be delighted to be His child, and understand that our heavenly Father and His Son Jesus are the Lord of the universe, if that makes sense. Without that, of course the church will feel empty.

I'm part of a community of faith that decided to buy a house and meet there. No pews, no platforms, a meal together with lots of coffee and conversation, shared teaching and exploring various worship paradigms together. Different rooms are there for different types of discussions. We're not a house church ... but a community of faith who meets in a large house that was boughtjust for gathering and journeying together in our spiritual adventure with God. It's a great atmosphere to invite people to ... like inviting someone to 'your home.' Imagine 'leadership meetings' in a kitchen, around a table ... we call ourselves ministry partners, all being equally called to serve one another. We're risking being 'church' in something other than the institutional building. We've birthed something fresh and maybe this will help others to re-imagine 'church.'

Edited by author 11-02-2005 10:52 AM
The Church needs to "emmanualize" the concept of God. Christ still lives and reigns in the world today. The Church is still relevant in today's culture.

"I agree with my friend, Tracey, who says, “The only culture in a church should be the culture of Jesus”." I understand the frustration of seeing the church so easily capitulate to the values of the surrounding culture. But it strikes me as a bit naive to think we can drop our cultural baggage at the door, and walk in to church as "Jesus-only" culture people -- any more than I can drop my particular personality quirks. Tyler makes a good point that Kingdom people are in the business of redeeming culture, even self-centered, materialistic American culture. Cultures, like our individual personalities, are part of a God-created, yet fallen, world. I certainly hope God isn't done with my foibles; I'm sure he's not done with the waywardness of our culture, either. (BTW I really liked the article, and agree with most of it.)

I think the primary problem with the American Church is a lack of Holiness. The Church has an improper balance towards being inviting to the lost and failing to teach and hold members to Personal Holiness. There is a difference between guests and members with different expectations for each. As the body of Christ in an effort to be salt and light to the culture we need to be different and that difference is holiness.

Wow,

All I can say is Amen. Maybe "being" is more important than "doing" after all. Great article!

you have a point, Tyler, but one of the problems I see is that so much of American culture is in direct opposition to "Jesus culture", and many churches have bought more into the American culture than the kingdom.

our challenge - one that Pam concludes with - is exactly how do we go about BEING church? What does the kingdom in our culture look like?

My lifelong exposure/involvement in the church has me feeling frustrated, wanting, and passionatly pressing ahead as I am able. It seems that when the church looks less "churchish" it attracts worldly people for a while. But when they find out your agenda really is to be Christ-like, as best as you are able they leave "for personal reasons". When the church takes on a very clear appearance, the church people get real quiet and start to fade. I'm frustrated with nice people who attend church regularly, not to interact, but to fill the pew pretty much on time, to be counted on sort of most of the time who also say "great service". I'm wanting to be with people who come to interact with Holy Spirit, Christ's people and God's written Word. I'm pressing ahead as I am able, sincerly attempting to be an example in the church and a friend to / who invites unchurched to know Christ. I don't feel that I have a lot of notches in either gun. It seems to me that the church should intertwined with culture enough to be relateable in communication but separate enough to raise a standard and lift people heavenward. One huge roadblock that I am finding is no one has time for church. I agree people make time for what they want to do or what they are attracted to. So there are two strikes against the church. In recent years churches were growing based on "entertainment value" but it seems that fad has run it's course. The "positive attitude, down home, good feeling message" is doing pretty good right now. We are a culture that has been trained to "want", though we're not always sure what we're wanting. I'm wanting...and I still think it has to do with something to do with Christ and His Kingdom on earth and in heaven. At the moment I too, feel empty.

Well I do think extremes are bad, in my church (small one in Caracas Venezuela)we are "getting organized"but we do not see people willing to be more that sunday christians, expecting pastors and leaders would do the job of being the bride of Christ, sometimes I do miss my American church, that was not a big one either, where people was eager to serve, to give and recive. But on the other hand, I can say you can see the love of God in my church, we are a "family" and you know what goes on in a family. So I pray that Godīs people can find the balance needed to keep Him as our first love and "do" our job in church being obedient to His word.

the "jesus" culture pam alludes too is great, however it needs a "human" culture or medium to live through. God loves the cultures the humans come up with, its a byproduct of his creativity in us and our own God given creativity (minus the bad stuff of course). She alludes to sorta "quitting" the american culture in hopes of pursuing a "Jesus culture" however the Jesus life is lived through americans who practice american culture. Kingdom living will redeem amercian culture. In revealtion it speaks of all languages praising God. Linguistics is closly tied to culture. To put it bluntly you can't have JUST a jesus culture, Jesus himself didn't even do that, remember he was a jew from the middle east who ate flat bread and went to the synogoge.