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WOW! I and some of the women Inam closely connected with have been feeling these same things for the past year! to hear that others are where we are is both encouraging and disheartening! I personally beleive it has to do with our connection, our closeness, our dependence, our relationship, with God....Is He our focus or has programming and numbers become our focus? I am a great believer in becoming a part of the solution ...therefore, I am left wondering what I (we) can do to change this. I believe that in my own church fellowship we need to help people become connected - with each other and with their Savior....

Father God, Ignite the flame once again in your people!!!!!

Thanks Karen for adding your voice to this discussion. It encourages me tremendously that I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE.

If anyone else pops into this forum would you answer me this question:

What do you imagine the collective body of Christ, aka The Church, to look like and act like? I'd love to hear it.

I just read this post and this is almost 100% exactly the sentiment I have been coming to over the past several months. It's almost like I could have written it myself! The concept of not just doing church but being the church, being the incarnate Christ to one another and to our community, and really being a community of believers knit together where our lives just don't intersect on Sunday morning and no other time during the week.... These ideas are definitely moving me outside my comfort zone of how I've known and done church for years, but I know that Jesus wants so much more for His Church that what we are now.

I just glanced down to read one of the other comments: "Connecting on a deep level takes time and trust." That is definitely true, yet as we set the stage for being vulnerable, others will step out in faith and do the same. We as believers take for granted the Christian fellowship we have with one another. As we see our sinfulness and are honest about that before our Heavenly Father and come to value the redemption we have in Christ more and more, only then can we begin to feel the freedom to be honest with one another and take off our masks. I have just read Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and am in the process of re-reading & digesting it. I would recommend it highly. We in the American church do not value Christian community as we ought, and do not really begin to see the blessings God has for us when we do become vulnerable and open with one another. I know there is so much more to it than that and in my journey, I am only beginning to scratch the surface in understanding I believe God has for me and for His Church.

Let's all be praying for God to light a fire in the Church and especially for the leadership of our churches.

How kind of OTM to rerun my story (thanks Jim).

Paul, thank you for your warm words.

Since I wrote this article my husband and I were churchless for a while. A couple of months ago we dipped our toe back in and are now becoming a part of a church here in Portland known as The Bridge. Perhaps I'll write about it in the future. This church is the most un-churchy church I have ever been a part of in twenty years. It resembles a tavern more than a church. If you're curious to check them out go to www.the-bridge-pdx.org

I am continuously surprised at how many people are experiencing a sense of upheaval in the body of Christ. I am convinced that there is a conspiracy going on and that the Holy Spirit probably has something to do with it.

I am looking forward to writing more about my spiritual wilderness and how God has messed up my religion. (title of my book in progress)

Pam,

Joining this discussion late. Just read your original post. Wow. The church could really use more people with your clear perspective. Please know that you're welcome back to the "inside" any time.

Paul

Re: connecting on deep levels, being vulnerable, and such seems to be a trait some find essential for satisfying relationships in the church. Looking at this closely makes me wonder why we find this needful. Can't we be satisfied simply relating with people at the level they are capable of giving of themselves? I dare say most people do not start out deciding to "hide" from their brothers and sisters, but rather give of themselves as they feel comfortable. My comfort level may not be the same as yours. Connecting on a deep level takes time and trust. It cannot be made it happen - it occurs when brother A is comfortable with brother B and vice versa. I wonder if we ought rather relax and enjoy one another and accept what we each can give to the relationship. I believe we would then (a) enjoy one another more, (b) be blessed by what our brother does share with us, and (c) be more satisfied with what we do find in the Body.

I agree with you Jack. I think that we (as a whole) don't connect on very deep levels. The fear of being vunerable is very real. The thought of someone taking advantage of us or abusing our vunerability is very real. I have been in a large church were the relationships were very surface, nothing deep and meaningful. We all worked for the 'greater good' of the organization. Heck, we didn't even have time to fellowship. We were too busy in meetings, training sessions or..well, more meetings! The thought of letting down our walls was unbearable to think of. Even the thought of someone seeing my faults or weaknesses was absolutely taboo.
  Do you know what? I have come to think that often our relationship with the Lord can reflect on how we relate to others (not exclusively) But, when we are not entering into deeper levels of intimacey with the Lord, how are we going to connect with others on a deeper level. There is an intimacey problem with God's people. And it starts with us connecting with Him in a deeper way. Then our relationships with one another can have the chance to reflect that.

I long for meaningful relationships. Thank God I am now in a place where I am able to give that to others and recieve it. God brought me to a church where I have been able to connect with people and enter into true 'covenant' relationships. People see me as I am and I see them as they are. No pretense, no pretending. Just living real Christianity in front of real people with out the fear of being rejected. It's very freeing.

I am looking to find people interested in filling out a survey on related church issues for school which can be found at: http://sausurvey.speedsurvey.com

Any help would be much appreciated! It should only take about 5 minutes.

Thanks!

Edited by author 12-08-2005 01:10 PM
Interesting discussion. And yet I have heard these issues raised in the past forty years since I became a Christian, In fact when I read Paul's letters to the different churches, I see similar issues in today's church. Small groups can work or they can be devasting. Home churches can be the same. We pray that first we can be real with all the people we interact with during each day. We pray that God would bring people into our lives that allow us to connect at a deeper level.

People have a desire and a fear of being close. We hunger for a deeper connection, but fear the vulnerableness it requires of us. Also how do we learn to move beyond the facade that we have lived behind for some many years. Learning to trust in what seems to be an untrust worthy world is very scary.

A lot of it begins with our own relationship with God. Knowing that no matter what others may say, I know that I am loved by God with all my warts, faults, quirks, et al. Then I know that in ways that I cannot completely fathom that God can and does use me to reveal a little bit of His heaven on earth. This is in my home, work, church, social settings or wherever I go.

I attend a very large church (18-20,000 weekly). It is very hip, cool, with it and almost all the other postmodern ideas. Its small group is like going to a spa, it is a warm friendly environment, but no lasting effect.

I go to church for the corporate worship. I have given up the idea of any lasting indepth relationships. Sometimes I connect for the moment at conferences or through other sources. They are only momentary. In some small groups that I have been in that lasted for a while, but disbanded. I still maintain a memory and a connection when I see others.

The hard part is being in a highly mobile society that I experience constant change in groups and memberships. There are very few long lasting relationships. So you seize the brief encounters with others and enjoy. You also remain open for the opportunities when they occur again.

Very interesting article. It is a divine unrest, a holy agitation. I have seen man made, dead structure, flesh driven programs and corporate Church that squeezes the life out of almost everything that is born of the Spirit. Anything that does not fit into our 'Church mold' or challenges the structures we have so tediously built, upsets people. When the divine, shifting winds of the Spirit start to blow we feel the need to control and harness Him. We think 'order' in the church is set by ourselves and not by Jesus and His Word, then when we percieve something that challenges us as 'out of order'. I suspect God is tiring of man made kingdoms and desires to have His own established, on His terms. I heard a man of God say 'We must have courage for the Kingdom'. Courage to change, courage to have things done differently. Courage to 'be' rather than to 'appear'. There is a price to pay. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken. That's not a bad thing. God is doing a new thing and He will find people who will embrace what He is wanting to do. I desire to be one of those people. Do I have a full picture and have all the answers, no. The good thing is I don't need too, because He does!
  The world cries out for people who are relevent and real. We need to be able to give them heart felt, anointed answers and not scripted religious dialoge. My heart longs for real, humble people who are truly intimate with Jesus and who don't hide behind their positions, programs or religious ways. We owe it to the lost to show them Jesus and not 'Institutionalized Christianity'.

It is great to hear people on the "west" coast thinking about such issues. My friend and I are working with a young (four years old) church and are seeking to have authentic Christianity displayed. Question, how are you (anyone) reaching the "lost" with the entire message of the gospel? We are desiring to allow the lost to experience John 10:10 as they interact with us but it seems like since many people are "religousized" they do not understand that Christianity is more than heaven and hell but it has to deal with people being restored to the image which God had once intended us to be.

we also have many friends that contributed to a blog we created at www.xanga.com/inaweofgod Much of our thoughts are shared with yours.

Steve