Okay, here goes... let's start out with Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, and see where it goes from there! I envision book recommendations and scintillating discussions. If you're going to include spoilers, please insert a spoiler alert into your post.

I'm in. Wow...started re-reading #4 again - So - did you see the end coming? What about Ginney and Harry?

I re-read HP4 and HP5 to prepare for HP6. Now I'm suffering from Hogwarts withdrawal.

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Yes, I did see the end coming, mostly because I accidentally read a spoiler in Time magazine. But I've been afraid of Dumbledore's demise since book 5. I hold on to some faint hope that both Sirius and Dumbledore will be back in HP7. Harry is going to go into that archway in the Department of Mysteries and bring Sirius back.... and Dumbledore, like a phoenix, will rise from the ashes. Did you catch that one sentence when Harry said he thought he saw a bird rising from the flames when the white tomb was created? Man, it was sad though... I cried alot....

Overall, I really liked the book. My favorite since HP3. I liked the interaction between Harry and Dumbledore. And Harry was not nearly as cranky in this book, as he was in HP5. I think JK Rowling is doing a really good job with the characters as they are growing up.

It was sad - and kind of affirming at the same time - there's Harry being all paranoid of Malfoy and it turns out he was right to do so! It was also very obvious (at least to me) that Snape has been evil dude for some time know (the occulancy lessons for example)...I am planning to reread it soon -

Hello, glad we got another place to post.

Spoiler alert too:

I was actually shocked about Snape because he went back and forth in the different books. I kept thinking he was working for the good guys but was bad in disguise. I'm still wondering, like you Sue, if things aren't going to turn around in the last book.

What if Dumbledore was never really dead and it was all a stunt between Snape and Dumbledore to get the bad folks confused? that crossed my mind.

I also hated that Harry broke up with Jeeny (sp). He didn't have to do that! He can keep a girlfriend while he fights evil. Typical teenage boy - breaking the girl's hear. Pooh

I was surprised Dumbledore died, but I wasn't suprised about Malfoy. He was such a jerk the entire time that he had to be evil. Plus the previous book had been clear about Malfoy's Dad being evil.

Funny how Malfoy's Mom had long blonde hair like the father and son!

But see LV had already used Ginni once in HP2...I think he was correct to assume anybody close would be in mortal danger. I bet, however, that just like H and R, she will join in in HP7. There was constant reference to her fierceness. Whew. What if D isn't really dead? It has been used before. And remember, the Death Eaters were all hot for Malfoy to do it as some sort of initiation and they kept the werewolf off of D. Then Snape comes through the door and zaps him without even stopping to look around. Maybe that was to stop anyone from actually really killing him. On the other hand, JKR doesn't seem to mind making the reader face up to ugly stuff. AUGH!!! Where is HP7!??!?! It's going to be war.

I have read other books this summer, but this one's GOT me!!

Hi guys,
Some of you may remember me from Class of '81. I don't post in the main forum, but I couldn't resist joining in this discussion, if that's okay with you guys.

I loved this book! Maybe my favorite of the six. The ending was shocking, but like Laurie said, I don't think everything is at it appears. SPOILER ALERT:

I don't think Dumbledore is dead (or else, not such that he won't be able to help Harry in the last book), and I don't believe that Snape turned on him. I can't believe that "the greatest wizard of his age" could have been so wrong about Snape, nor killed so easily. There are a few clues about it in the book too, I think.

Also, I loved the parts about Malfoy. He and Snape have always been fave characters (I always like the twisted ones) and I was glad to see JKR explore him more. I have always hoped that he wouldn't turn out as bad as his father, that he was more fear-driven than evil. And then, in the end, he lowered his wand and didn't kill Dumbledore when he had the chance. I hope in the last book he turns on his father and joins up w/ Harry.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I will be so sad when the series is over...sigh.

Welcome, Wendy, glad you found us! You're near DC aren't you?

Yep, I agree that there's more to Snape. Obviously in HP7 we will find out why D trusted him so much.

I also thought it was interesting that at the end Harry said he was not going back to school and that Ron and Hermione said they'd be with him wherever he went. I guess I assumed that he'd be back at Hogwarts for his last year.

Any ideas who the owner of the locket horcrux is? Were the initials RAB or HAB? I wonder if this is a new character or one that we already know?

Laurie, I wouldn't worry about Harry and Ginny - they'll get together in the end, don't you think? I have to believe that good will conquer evil in this world and all will live happily ever after. Maybe after Harry vanquishes Voldemort, he won't need to be an Auror, and he can just be a damn good quidditch player!

And I will also be sad after the series is over... I wonder what she'll do next? Someone with an imagination like hers can't possible be done telling stories!

yes Wendy, welcome. You guys brought up some great points I'd forgotten.

Wasn't the cave and lake chapter weird? The dead bodies popping out of the water were gross. Then poor Dumbledore having to drink that gunk. That whole story of the locket will be fascinating.

I also thought the following were great stories:

1. background information on Tom Riddle's family. How weird is that? His mother was this weird, dirty, abused witch and his father was this handsome "too cool for life" Muggle. Then Tom kills his father and grandparents. WOW.

2. Snape being the Half Blood Prince! Wow that was cool. The book was a wonderful idea and was great because Harry made Hermine mad in class. I always thought it would be Tom Riddle's book, but she pulled a fast one on me and made it Snape's book. Very interesting twist. Plus we see more of Snape's power and tormented youth.

I really hope you guys are right that Dumbledore will return, but like Sue said, we may in for a real shocker.

Another thing to remember is that one of the previous books talked about this deal between Dumbledore and Harry's aunt and uncle when they first took the baby to them. There will be interesting stuff in there too.

Very glad to see Ron and Hermine getting together - sort of. Funny to imagine Ron smooching with the other girl!

I can't believe we're so into this...like Trekkies!

I went back and read the chapter where Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow (what the hell is that? but we can guess) to Narcissa. And the chapters of the death and after. I think Wendy is right: Dumbledore will be around one way or another.

I thought that whole Bill and Fleur thing at the end was good humor to throw in. Why wouldn't he marry me? I'm beautiful enough for the both of us!

No question big story wrap up in HP8. At least she had better tie it all up! And I hope the good guys win in the end, she has certainly given the bad guys plenty of wins so far.

I may be in denial, but I am clinging to the notion that Dumbledore and Snape only made it look as if Dumbledore had been killed.

As for Ginny... If Harry isolates himself and loses his ability to love, he will no longer have that one advantage over Voldemort, no?

OK, so if I climed in and got naked, do you all think I could possibly distract you from this discussion?

that's a good one Carmen - I'm beautiful enough for the both of us. Poor girl, nobobdy liked her.

Marivi - I guess Harry can still love Ginny but stay away from her for her protection. The one thing he should be really careful about is revenge - that can be all consuming.

Wasn't it cool how Voldemort could split his soul into pieces. Wonder where the other ones are located. Here's a question - if he could get these souls, did he do so in the first book, when Harry took the stone from him? Did V. need another piece of soul after he killed Lily and James but not Harry? How many pieces of souls are left out there?

Harry needs to get them all before finishing with V.

Oh, another interesting bit of info in this book: Harry's parents were killed after Snape told V about the prophesy from that nutty teacher. Wow.

Tennyson, you can distract us only if you are carrying a magic wand in your right hand.

Do you think JK Rowling came up with the soul-splitting Horcrux idea from the beginning of the series, or for HP6? Likewise, was the Tom Riddle backstory fully formed in her mind from the beginning of the series, or something she made up for this book?

I guess she had some ideas from the beginning and she completed them as the books progressed. I'd say Voldemort's story got sorted out when Tom Riddle appeared - in Chamber of Secrets. I *think* we knew he was of the Slytherin house in previous books, didn't we?

But the Horcrux idea seems new to me - but it's cool.

Another thing I loved about the books were the memories that Dumbledore would collect and show Harry. Very ingenious way to take us backwards without confusing us.

Did you guys hear that some time ago, between books 5-6, a little girl was dying of cancer and she wrote JKR and asked her what would happen. She knew she would not live long enough to see the last books.

So JKR wrote her back and gave her the whole rest of the series. Guess that's an indication that for some time, she has had a pretty good idea where this is going.

Tennyson, you being naked might distract some of us more than others...

Yep, there was an article in Time magazine about JKR corresponding with the young girl with cancer... I think she read HP4 to her over the phone before it was published. I have the magazine at home cuz I liked the article, so I'll check. I have heard that she has the whole thing mapped out.

I'd like to think that the horcrux idea was there since the beginning even though it's new to us. Aren't there 4 that Harry's looking for to destroy? The two that are already destroyed are the ring and the diary. Then there's the 2 that are in the locket and cup and 2 he doesn't know about.

So Marivi, what did you think? Were you surprised by the end?

It is hard to register surprise when one is still in denial about that which one is supposed to be surprised by ;-)

Tennyson - huh??? I agree with Sue.

I liked the fact that V chose Harry and not Neville, based on Snape telling him the prophesy he overheard...in that naming him as enemy, V instilled the powers and education (like in HP4 where Mad Eye isn't really Mad Eye, but still helps Harry out of jams?)

Snape = bad. Don't see him being redeemed.

But Dumbledore trusts (trusted?) Snape and we still don't know why. Surely we'll find out...?

I still think there may be more to Snape than meets the eye. Guess we'll have to wait a good long while before we get any clarity, though.

I also predict that Neville will turn out to be an ugly duckling of sorts, growing up to surprise all those who underestimated him. We've already caught a glimpse of that. Just compare Neville in the first book to the Neville in HP 6.

BTW: Is there one more book to go or two? Can't seem to remember and I'm too sleepy to Google it ;-)

P.S. Was Dumbledore supposed to die all along, or did the death of Richard Harris (the actor who played Dumbledore) influence the writing?

I bet he was supposed to die/"die" (can't decide) all along. She supposedly had all 7 books all sketched out from the begining, one for each year of school. But if they don't go back to school...?

Neville has certainly grown. I think we found out a lot about him when we learned about his parents. I'm disappointed Malfoy isn't entirely evil. But we still have Voldemort! Did we find out how many horcuxes he had collected so far?

You guys reminded me of Neville. I do think there will be lots more about him in the last book. Or there should be. His life is parallel to Harry's life. He must have a big role in the last book.

Sue, you are right, something big has to happen with Dumbledore and Snape at the end. The fact that D trusted S soooo much can't be just poor judgment. It can't.

I guess Malfoy isn't pure evil because he's more bully than anything else. He was mean to his peers and younger people, but not really evil enough to kill D. Wonder why he couldn't do it . . .

I think D. was scheduled to die all along - had nothing to do with R Harris dying (whom I missed in the last film very much).

I think that the kids will still have some contact with Hogwarts, even if it's not 100 percent of the time. The school will end up appearing in the book.

I think only two horcruxes have been destroyed so far - the ring and the diary.

I expect Neville will get his revenge on the LeStrange's for his parents... I've enjoyed seeing him grow more confident as the years go by, due in no small part, I think to his membership in the DA. He doesn't know he was part of the prophecy, does he?

Since H, R, and H all know how to Disapparate now, maybe that's how they'll get around the being in school and hunting for the horcruxes and You-Know-Who. Maybe...

I liked the Weasley Twins "Un-O-Poo" invention... cracked me up!

I miss Richard Harris too... He was perfectly cast. The new guy was okay in HP3 movie, but not great. When I picture Dumbledore in my head, he looks like Richard Harris...

Edited by author 08-05-2005 02:33 PM
You can NOT apparate on the grounds of Hogwarts. That's why the Death Eaters had to use the cabinets to get into the castle and why Snape and Co. had to make a mad dash to the exit.

Who is RAB, who found the locket first?

Right, but they could apparate to Hogsmeade... Or could they apparate to the exit?

Don't know who RAB is.... I wondered if any of you guys had figured it out... I have no idea. I wonder if it's a known obscure character or a new character

What is the name of Sirius Black's brother? Isn't it Regulus? Might he be R.A.B?

Sounds good M! He was on the good side no?

I can't remember. Most of the Blacks were quite snotty. Unfortunately, I gave away my copies of the previous HPs. Can someone who still has HPs 1-5 do a little research for us on what we know about Regulus?

Regulus Black
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Harry Potter character
 
Regulus Black
Gender Male
Hair colour Unknown
Eye colour Unknown
House Slytherin
Parentage Pure-blood
Loyalty None (was Death Eater, but tried to leave)
Film portrayer None
First appearance None
Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.

Regulus Black is a fictional character in the Harry Potter series, the younger brother of Sirius Black. The Black family was a family of dark wizards. According to Sirius, his parents believed that to be a Black made you virtual royalty, and they shared many of the Death Eaters' ideas about blood purity. Unlike his older brother Sirius, Regulus had a similar mentality to theirs, and for that reason, it seems he was the favourite son of their mother.

When Lord Voldemort rose to power, Regulus joined him and his parents thought he was a "little hero" for becoming a Death Eater. When he started to realize what was expected of him as a Death Eater, he began to panic and wanted to quit, but being a Death Eater is a lifelong service on pain of death. According to sources, Regulus was killed on Voldemort's orders, or possibly by Voldemort himself.

Near the end of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, a message is signed with the initials R.A.B., and some have interpreted it to mean Regulus A. Black; Rowling called this theory "a fine guess." [1].

If true, this would indicate that the locket Horcrux was stolen by Regulus and possibly destroyed or stashed away. Chapter 6 of OotP mentions a heavy, unopenable locket stashed at 12 Grimmauld Place, the Black household. However it's also noteworthy that in Half Blood Prince, Mundungus Fletcher is seen stealing artifacts of the household -- as such it's uncertain whether it still remains there.

Regulus is the brightest star in the constellation Leo, the lion. Wild speculation, partially based on the fact that JK Rowling has used name origins before (like using Sirius [the dog star] Black as the name for a man who can change form to become a black dog), might somehow tie Regulus to Gryffindor, as the house symbol is a lion. However it has since been confirmed that Regulus was a member of Slytherin.

Wow Marivi - a very thorough reference on such a minor (so far) character.

Everytime I read a message about horcruxes, my brain goes: "the locket, the cup, the snake, something of Ravenclaw's, or Griffindor's...the locket, the cup, the snake..."

I also think that Neville will figure big in the next book. He has always shown courage, even in the first book where he stood up to H,R and H. I read an interview with JKR where she said that the quality she most admires is bravery, which, more than anything else, is what Harry has. (And why Griffindor is the house of the most brave, not the most intelligent or powerful). I hope Neville does get his revenge on that evil hag Bellatrix Lestrange.

I see that Ralph Fiennes is Voldemort in the next HP movie (out in Nov). Great casting! He has a very handsome but evil face. This movie looks great, w/ the Tri Wizard Tournament.

How many horcruxes are there - 7? Just finished HP4 again. So good...

Think you are all right about Neville - loved when Prof. McG. complimented him on his bravery at the Ministry and told him to take charms for his NEWTS - and said she would drop a note to his grandmother explaining that just because she had failed Charms didn't mean they were useless...

You know what other character I've always liked? Luna. She really does see people for who they are and some of her comments are pretty insightful.

Oh, I love Luna. We had a couple of Luna-like characters in my class at AHS. I thought the world of them, though most people kept their distance. The world needs more Lunas and Nevilles.

Marivi, that's awesome about Regulus Black! Good for you! Now I'm going to go back and read Chapter 6 of HP5 to confirm that thing about the locket. It's amazing that she has it all so well planned out and that there are these nuggets that seem unimportant scattered through the earlier books.

Edited by author 08-07-2005 04:04 AM
Like Marivi, I don't have any of the stinkin' books in my collection. I read and pass on!! So Sue, what did you find? OH that's not true! I have them all in Spanish in my classroom. I'm bringing them home today!!!

Mundungus probably does have the locket. Why else would it be mentioned in HP6? As we are finding out, everything in HP series happens/is mentioned with a reason. Man, that will be interesting. That M is one slippery customer.

Are we to assume Harry got the invisibility cloak back, or did he just abandon it? He said something about not needing it any more. If he didn't go back and get it then he's going to need it desperately later OR somebody else is going to pick it up and use it, probably for nefarious purposes.

Re the discussion on the other QT, even at Hogwarts they look down on astrology! Not to mention that no one has much nice to say about Trelawney and her discipline. Although there is more respect for Firenze and his style of reading.

The movie is coming out in the fall, no? Can't wait!! So far the casting has been superb (love the guy that does Snape, he was the Sherriff in Robin Hood, such a good bad guy!) and it looks like they hit it again with Fiennes. Who's directing this time?

You give away your Harry Potter books??? Not me! I have the entire set, in hard cover, both the US and English editions. Although I don't have HP6 from England. I'll get it eventually. I don't give them away, mostly because I plan to read them again at some point. I have read HP1-5 twice each now. Okay, yes, I'm a little obsessed!

Yes, there is a locket mentioned in HP5 on page 116. It's while the kids are helping Mrs. Weasley get Grimmauld Place cleaned up. They're emptying some of the glass cabinets. It just says, "also a heavy locket that none of them could open,..." It doesn't really say what they did with it however. Either Mundungus has it, or maybe Kreacher has hidden it away... either way, it's not going to be easy for Harry to find.

And yes, the HP4 movie comes out in the fall. I think Ralph Fiennes is a great choice for Voldemort. The director is Mike Newell, who did Enchanted April and Four Weddings and a Funeral. The imdb.com website also notes that HP5 is in pre-production for release in 2007 and HP6 has been "announced" for release in 2008. Gotta keep 'em coming before those kids get too old!

I missed the part about the invisibility cloak! Guess I'll have to go back and read it. The last I remember was that it was covering Harry while Dumbledore was being done in...

hmm, some interesting facts. Thanks for all the discussion. Boy I need to go back and re-read these books to get the nitty gritty.

I, like Sue, don't give them away. When the books first came out, I bought them in paper back. Then sweet Bill bought me every book in hardcover so I'd have a nice collection and I'm keeping them.

Isn't that Kreacher. He hates Harry but must obey. HA. But he'll be a royal pain in the last book. I know it! Maybe Dobie can take care of Kreacher. Ha, there will be a battle between the little guys.

oh, the guess of the initials on the locket sounds very, very good. Good job on that one. I had no clue.

I heard on the news yesterday that the enemy combatants in Guantanamo Bay request Harry Potter books more than any others!

sue - really? where'd you hear that???

I heard that too. It was in the tv news.

Edited by author 08-15-2005 04:41 AM
Just finished The #1 Ladies Detective Agency. Very nice - yes Nice. And a quick read. Doesn't suck you in like HP, but a light nice summer read. About half way through The Fabric of the Cosmos. I think I mostly get it. It's about relativity, quantum, space-time and how everything goes together to make up the universe.

Mom says she has mailed me HP6...I guess I will go get the nice boxed set of 1-5 they have at the Shoppette. I'll get HP6 in espanol when I go to Madrid in October. Then there will just be ONE MORE TO GO. WHY does she take soooooo long?!

I agree, way too long between books. We are in pain, doesn't she know this??

Just finished "Peter and the Starcatchers" by Dave Barry and Daniel Pearson. !!! It's actually quite good, though like Harry, not exactly aimed at our age group. I bought it for my niece and decided to read it before I send it to her. It answers questions about Peter Pan...how did he meet the pirates? The alligator, the hand, why he stays young, why he can fly, where Tinkerbell came from, whew!

Hey, only trying to justify the title "AHS online book club"! It's not called the AHS HP book club. :)!!!

Well, I figured we could only talk about HP so long...

I'm reading Empire Falls by Richard Russo, but haven't really gotten into it enough to form an opinion. Someone thought it was good, however, it's a Pulitzer Prize winner. So I guess I'll stick with it.

Also recommended to me by Susie Sanchez was Middlesex. Can't remember the author.

Books that I've read recently that I enjoyed:

The Secret Life of Bees
The Lovely Bones
Cold Mountain

I've heard they're making movies of the first two. And obviously, they've already made a movie of the 3rd, which I thought was good.

I read the #1 Ladies Detective Agency and found it okay. I'm not inclined to read any more in the series, so that must say something.

well shoot, I'd written all this stuff and just lost it. GRRR.

I'll try again. I've been reading several books written by Adriana Trigiani. She comes from Big Stone Gap, Virginia and my husband Bill knows the family since they all went to the same church.

Adriana lived in NY and wrote for the Bill Cosby Show (the original show). Then she got into writing books. The first one, Big Stone Gap is a total hoot. It's about the characters that live in the country and even I, a city girl loved it. One of my favorites.

The second and 3rd of that series were good, but nothing like the first. Then she made a main character a homosexual and I think she took her books from Americana lit to plain pulp lit. Too PC.

Several of my friends (even liberal ones) agreed that doing that hurt the integrity of the book.

But anyways - I'll continue reading her books. My most favorite of all has been Lucia, Lucia which is about a woman in NY city beginning in the 40's onward. Totally engaging and entertaining and a quick read. I could relate to that book much more and loved the character of Lucia (her grandma's name).

She just released a new book and I bought it at the airport yesterday.

Here is her website. She is super cool and will write you back if you email her (Idid).

http://www.adrianatrigiani.com/

She and her sisters also published a cooking book which I bought simply because Bill loved seeing the family photos. He knows everyone in there and loved seeing them all. The recipes look good (all Italian, my favorite) but I've never tried them.

Highly recommend the books.

Here's another good website on her. She's been on the NY Times best sellers book with several of her books.

http://literati.net/Trigiani/index.htm

Oh, the books are paperback and inexpensive. I've even seen them at Target.

BTW Ridley Pearson.

There's a lot of praise for #1 Detective, but I thought it was just OK nice. I may get the next one for the next airplane ride. Just that kind of book - engaging but not too much thinking.

On the way to Panama I read newish book by Peter Mayle (A Year in Provence) "A Good Year". Fiction, amusing, lasted me about halfway across the ocean. Like the rest of his fiction books. Again, excellent airplane reading. Then I read "Going Solo" by Roald Dahl. It's autobiographical, the period from late 30s through The War. His adventures going solo - he goes off to Africa to work for Shell and then when war breaks out he joins the air force and has adventures all over north Africa then eventually goes home. Really good. And short.

I hope I can squeeze in another book before school starts. Really slow going on personal reading during the school year! I will not give up, however, I will continue to read. I have a bunch stacked up ready to go!

I also love reading Jane Austen's books. They are a bit hard to read because I get the original English version, but you get the lingo after a bit. They are great love stories with good endings (like Pride and Predudice). The Bronte sisters also write good books.

Edited by author 08-19-2005 03:42 AM
LOVE Austen. Too many words, if you ask me, but WONDERFUL stories. Can't stand the Brontes. Or the Russians, too depressing.

And you know who I haven't been able to get into but my mom and sister (and many others) LOVE is Isabel Allende. In Spanish or English.

PS: I now have a complete set of HP in English. Hardcover even. WHEEEEE!!!!!

Carmen, all except one HP . . . (ugh, hurry up!!)

BBC America has a mug that says, "Mrs Darcy". That is so hysterical. Guess every female out there fell in love with Collin Firth in that film. Dreamy.

One of my favorite books in recent years and one that anyone with a bicultural background should read is Jhumpa Lahiri's "Interpreter of Maladies"...

I also enjoyed Kavalier & Clay.

Howdy folks. Sue was kind enough to post this sight on the Class of '81 and invited us to join the conversation.

My wife and I are reading the Harry Potter books to our five-year old and we haven't reached deep enough to start reading the HBP (okay we're still on book 1 with her though we've seen all three movies <g> and read through OOTP ourselves). I did read the whole topic and it doesn't spoil it for me, though I can't add much...yet.

However, my wife and I started our own book club (none of her friends were interested in doing so) and we're now on our second book. Though most of you have probably already read it, we just finished the "Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood" by Rebecca Wells and have started "House of the Spirits" by Isabel Allende (English translation). Next on the list "Middlesex" by Jeffrey Eugenides. Probably something by Toni Morrison follows that.

We saw the movie version of "Divine..." but was very dissapointed. Did anyone else see the movie after reading the books, or the other way around?

Carmen, regarding the Austen and the Brontes, we've enjoyed them (of course, haven't read them for about 20 years now). We even named our daughter Bronte after the sisters. Going back, we've also enjoyed Virginia Woolf's books, with a heavy emphasis on "Orlando."

Anyway, looking forward to hearing and sharing more about the books we're reading.

Cheers...

Hey John, welcome!

I read and enjoyed Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood and didn't want to see the movie because it looked so lame and unlike the book. Guess I made the right choice, no?

Love Pride and Prejudice. Love Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy. Have you seen the previews for the new movie coming out soon? Keira Knightley is Elizabeth, and someone I didn't recognize is Mr. Darcy, but no matter what, he won't be as good as Colin Firth! Those brooding looks... Dreamy, indeed!

Edited by author 08-20-2005 03:55 AM
Thanks for the reminder Laurie!! :)!

John, y'all should add an Austen to the book club list. Always great going back to her. My favorite is Emma, cuz she's such a goose. Has anybody read Mansfield Manor? (I'm not even sure that's the correct title.)

I have also enjoyed Edith Wharton, of The Age of Innocence fame. Loved that movie but the book is better. I tried EMForster. Loved A Room With a View (loved that movie too but book way more full) but did not like Howard's End and sort of gave up on him after that. Both Forster and Wharton wrote at about the same time and to same purpose...social commentary.

Clearly I need to add Divine Secrets to the pile. !!

A book a go back to regularly is The Scarlet Pimpernel. Don't know why, but I find it tremendous fun, and satisfying. If you haven't read, you must. Starts kind of slow and then sucks you in. About an English guy, the Scarlet Pimpernel, who saves French nobles from the Guillotine during the Reign of Terror. Of course there is also a luv story. That's all I'm saying. Great fun read.

Sue, yes, you didn't miss much. The movie version of "Divine..." was pretty much miscast. I was expecting Meryl Streep, Swookie Kurtz, or even Lynn Redgrave in some form or fashion. Siddalee was totally miscast using Sandra Bullock, though I still haven't put my finger on who. However, Ellen Bernstein did a good job as the aged Vivi. I seem to watch all kinds of movies, good or bad. I didn't spend a dime on it as I checked it out of the library, so my money was well spent <g>.

Carmen, we'll probably add and Austen (by then it'll probably be next summer as we're very slow readers with all of the other activities we have going on). Emma was good, though I found it a bit frustrating. And for those who want the modern version...check out the movie "Clueless." Basically it is the same, with a modern twist to it.

We'll look into "The Scarlet Pimpernel." I have heard about it and from your description, it sounds intriguing. Read "Room with a View" and liked it better than the movie, though the movie was close to the book.

Daughter has gotten into the "Little House..." series of books as well. We're putting aside HP for a while as she suddenly has an interest in prairie living <g>.

Are you kidding? I LOVE Clueless, I practically know it by heart. :)! I do have a soft spot for adolescents, I suppose.

A&E did a thing years ago of The Scarlet Pimpernel. It was great to look at, being a period costume drama, but it was a vague adaptation to say the least. The book is really good. She wrote some further adventures of the SP, but nothing like the first.

Little House (and Ray Bradbury, go figure) got my sister into reading. I guess LH was our HP!

And for those of you needing a laugh: when I'm sick in bed and feeling sorry for myself I pull out the original 101 Dalmations...the BOOK by Dodie Smith, which came before the movie (which I of course also have). It makes me feel better.

HI JOHN!!! Welcome to our book club. It's sooo nice to hear from you.

I read the entire Laura Engalls series not too long ago. My husband recommended them and I ADORED them. I highly recommend them for everyone. Some require hankies - so be prepared!!! But totally worth reading even for adults.

Carmen - Did you mean Mansfield Park by Jane Austen. Yes, I've read it. Can't remember what's it's about, but I've read it. After a while they all start running together - except P&P.

Yes, Mr Darcy . . . sigh. Nobody can play that role ever again.

Carmen, you know what other books are great to read? The original Winnie The Pooh books. Sweet, gentle, kind and yet not mushy or childish. Great writing indeed.

Just finished Adriana Trigiani's book, "The Queen of the Big Time". Another great book. This one is about life in Rosetto, PA when Italian immigrants moved there and began working in sewing factories. Lovely story, but another hanky ending.

I'm pathetic. I sit there reading, swollowing hard, trying not to cry. The harder I try, the more the tears pop out. UGH.

OH, another great series to read is Miss Marple and Hercule Poirot by Agatha Christie. Great stuff. Entertaining and the ending always surprises us. I used to read them out loud to Bill when we travelled - car - (and I'd end up hoarse) and we read through quite a few of her books. Very talented woman.

Another all time favorite is Daphne Dumarier's Rebecca. I read it for a HS class and have read it about 3-4 since. Romantic and scary.

Wow, I never realized how much I read . . .

Howdy Laurie!

Yes, the Chrisite books were one of my favorites in high school (when I wasn't reading and re-reading Tolkien). I also read Du Maurier's "Rebecca" back then and loved the movie (with Laurence Olivier) though it was a bit different from the book.

Don't worry about the hankies. Just have them handy when you read <g>.

Yep, loved Rebecca by Daphne DuMaurier. I read it for pleasure in 9th grade and then again for a class. John, perhaps you and I had the same class? Anyway, if you remember, in the book, you never know the name of the protagonist... Max is always calling her "darling" or whatever, but you never know her name. In the class the teacher insisted that we pick a name for her so we could write about her... I think they picked "Daphne," which sort of annoyed me. I thought that the author had worked hard and cleverly to not name her, so who were we to decide she needed a name?

The movie was good, but changed such a significant part... guess they had to make it more "Hollywood."

Laurie, don't worry about those hankies... as John said, just keep 'em handy.

Forgot one thing... there was a musical made of the book The Scarlet Pimpernel. It was okay, but a bit forgettable to me, I guess. I can't really remember the story.

Speaking of musicals, I was supposed to see the musical "Little Women" this week, but due to a fire in the theater, they had to change the dates, and now I'm going to be out of town. That was a good book, and a good movie, and the musical got good reviews, I think. Oh well, guess I'll catch it next time it comes to San Diego.

Yes, Mansfield Park!

Rebecca, my absolute favorite gothic novel.

Loved the Poirot stories! My mom just sent me 3 in a series of mystery/detective stories that bring a semi-retired Sherlock Holmes together with a young woman, Mary Russel, who is as sharp as he is. So far, so good. In fact, much better than others who have tried to continue Holmes' career. I'll post the author later. Who knows when I'll get through all 3 of them since school starts tomorrow. EEK!

Was the classed named, "Adventure, Romance and Mystery" or something like that? I can visualize the teacher, but I can't remember her name. We also read Hound of the Baskervilles (which I just re-read) and Dracula (which I don't want to re-read). I'm too scary to read scary stories.

Sue, you are correct about Rebecca - Max never gave her name. I also like the movie very much - good acting by everyone.

Just don't watch Pride and Prejudice with Laurence Olivier. The film is awful and totally different to the book. ugh.

I loved those classes with the funky names/themes. Read a bunch of good books (and some crap) in them. James Joyce = EWWWWWW! Villarreal making us read his own book, Pocho, which was also EWW. I read some westerns in a westerns class which I actually liked. Mythology was not much more than the Iliad and the Odyssey, and thank goodness I read them, fabulous except for the endless list of the ships.

I was talking to some girls this morning and they love the Brontes. Well, I told them what I think. And they told me why they love the books. The whys are important. I really like teaching high school cuz you can actually talk to them.

Sue, no, I didn't read the book for a class. I actually saw the movie first and wanted to read the book. Even at that time I found the maid being portrayed as a closet lesbian. It was pretty advanced for the time.

The old movie version of the Scarlet Pimpernel is with Leslie Howard (or at least one version). I haven't seen it but I will read the book first before watching it this time.

BTW, I put down Isabel Allende's "House of the Spirits" to read the HBP. I'm already half-way through and enjoying it immensely. I'm getting a kick out of all of the "snogging" going on this year <G>.

That Sherlock Holmes/Mary Russel adventure book is going GOOD! It's called The Beekeeper's Apprentice. More when I'm done. Finally bought the A&E version of P&P. Can't wait to do the marathon. Maybe I'll invite some chicks over to watch with me!

I started reading Sheakespear's Romeo & Juliet after watching The movie this weekend. It was filmed in 1968 and it's considered the best adaptation. It killed me knowing they were going to die - sooo young. BBBOOOOOO. It helped watching the film before reading the book. I understand the old English much better.

Have read three of the Mary Russel books by Laurie King. Terrific!!!

hm, never heard of her. What kind of books are they?

Sue, I just happend to run into this invitation for an all around book club on another chat line. With our class it was originally announced as an HP chat, so I never got on.

Laurie, I just finished reading Little House in the Big Woods to my daughters. It was OK for me. They loved it. What blows me away whenever I think of people of that generation (born in the late 1800's and living through the mid 1900's) is all the mind boggling changes they saw in their life times. They went from crossing the plains in coverd wagons to actually seeing cars, airplanes and even space ships and atom bombs. I don't think our generation has seen changes so radical.

On the other hand my wife Vicki took a lady from our church (and from a small town near Ixtapan) to go shopping in Toluca. She had never seen an escalator before in her life and was fascintated. Anyway, I digress from the book theme.

I will read more in the Laura Engles Wilder series to them down the line, but now I just started reading "The Rats of Nimh". I vaugley remember reading that book like way back in Junior High and loving it. So now I'm rereading it.

I also want to get some of Neil Schusterman's books. I was very impressed with The little bit I got to glance at some of his books at our Puerto Vallarta reunion.

interesting the Little House was just OK for you. Maybe I enjoyed it alot because my husband's family made the same treck at the same time. They began in Maine and moved the Missouri. Plus, Pa Engles came from a town near my Dad's and we went there all the time. So I felt some attachment.

Then again, my sister read the entire series and she loved them too. Guess we all have different likes.

You are right about people's experiences back then. I noticed the same with my Dad. He was born in 1921 and the advances he saw were amazing. I think we are seeing similar things, but it's in the electronics world. Think about what we had as children and see what your children have. It's a different world completely.

I loved the Little House books as a child (I think I was 7 or 8 when I read them). Can't imagine a more different childhood from my own in Mexico City, Guadalajara and Manhattan.

The Rats of NIMH was another favorite, as were A Wrinkle in Time and From the Mixed Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler.

My daughter is enthralled with them. We're now reading Farmer Boy. I can't believe how much those kids ate! Everytime I come to the description of a meal, I get hungry myself, even if it is already after a meal.

BTW, regarding HP and THBP, I also believe that RAG is Regulus. He's mentioned several times in the book, but I also believe he's dead. Otherwise, 12 Grimmauld Place would belong to him instead of Harry. Now, I wonder if Harry himself is considered a Horcrux himself, eh?

John, that's funny about the food. Are you talking about the description of breakfast in Farmer Boy? I remember that. That's a great book. The marriage of Laura and Almonso (is that right?) is a true love story. I cried in the book that discussed their married life. Talk about hardships. Phew, we have it so easy now-a-days!

John, so why would Harry be considered a Horcrux himself? Because Voldemort zapped him when he was a baby? So does that mean that in order for Voldemort to die, Harry has to die too? Say it ain't so!

It was pretty clear that Regulus was dead wasn't it? Didn't that come out when Harry and Sirius were looking at the tapestry of the Black family tree?

Didn't read the Little House books when I was a kid. I did read many of the Anne of Green Gables books, as well as What Katy Did. I also loved the Narnia books and am looking forward to the movie. And The Phantom Tollbooth. Very clever.

I think that the Little House in the Prarie books would be more intresting to me if I were younger. At least this first book I read with my girls seems to be written more at their level then at mine. (I noticed the same about the Hobbit. I enjoyed it a lot more in 8th grade then this last time around with my kids)

I still think the changes from the late 1800's to the early 1900's were more dramatic then the changes in our generation. (Of course we still have more then half of our generation to go. Or at least I hope so!) When I was a kid I watched black and white TV, now I use the internet. I'm still just looking at stuff on a screen.

When I was a kid I rode to school in a car. I still drive a car. When I traveled a real long distance I rode an airplane, now I ride on a jet. When I was a kid, men landed on the moon, now there's a manned space station orbiting the earth. No doubt technology has advanced incredibly since we were kids. It just doesn't seem to be as dramatic an impact on our every day lives as the changes from the late 1800s to the mid 1900's.

Hey The Phantom Toll Booth! That's the book I've been trying to think of its name to read with my kids! Thanks Sue! I loved that book and I just couldn't remember the name!

Hey, not to get too Christian with you guys, but you have to realize that the whole Narnia series written by C.S. Lewis are super full of Christian theology. Aslan is no doubt a type of Jesus.

One of C.S. Lewis's best friends was Tolkein. Tolkein, a devout Catholic, had a significant part in converting CS Lewis from agnostisism to Christianity. Only that CS Lewis didn't become Catholic. I think he became Anglican instead.

The whole Lord of the Rings books are also full of Christian imagery. However one can read both the LOTR books as well as Narnia for the pure pleasure and not even notice the Christian theology in them. But for the Christian they have the added advantage of not only being fun, but having profound Christian messages in them too!

Mike, I had heard about the Christian theology in the Narnia books, but only as an adult, not when I read them as a child. I might read them again one of these days....

Speaking of CS Lewis, there was a really good movie about him a few years back called Shadowlands with Anthony Hopkins and Debra Winger. Anyone see it?

Mike: Both series, Narnia and LOTR, are filled with theology...but I wouldn't necessarily refer to it as Christian perse. I missed the whole Christian theme and read more eastern and greek theology into it (as well as pagan). For example, Tolkein (and now my Tolkein geekness comes out) disliked allegory and therefore he didn't want his writings to be represented as his true beliefs or what was happening at the time in his life (though it is hard to seperate his writings to his involvement in WWI). Also, if you review the history of middle earth, it is more like the old Greek theology (and mythology) of Mount Olympus and how the God's toyed with creatures. Remember LOTR and Middle Earth was Tolkein's way of creating an English myth which he felt was lacking.

Sue: Several times Dumbledore mentioned that when Voldermort tried to kill Harry, a part of Voldermort was transfered to Harry. This happened right after he murdered Harry's parents, which is considered a most horrible deed. Therefore, when Harry received a part of Voldermort, he became a Horcrux...at least, that's my opinion/guess. It is what made the prophecy so real, "...for neither can live while the other survives...," but then again, the interpretation of the prophecy is the whole series <G>.

Yes, Regulus is dead, and I am fear that Dumbledore is in the same boat. But Regulus' name kept coming up in this last book way too often, and if he was just a passing figure, it wouldn't be likely that JKR would have but an insignificant character in it so many times. I'm not sure about Sirius and I think he'll be back in the end. Maybe Sirius and Regulus are in the same place. Of course, Regulus could have captured the locket and destroyed it before he was killed by Voldermort and hence why he was killed. I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL BOOK 7 COMES OUT!!! I like immediate gratification <g>...

I can't believe I'm asking this, but I will - remind me what a Horcrux is supposed to be? I can't remember. Yes, I remember those passages that a part of V became part of Harry - isn't that why he can speak to snakes?

I agree with Mike, Narnia and LOTR are both based on Christian philosphy.

Funny about reading books as kids and adults. My sister LOVED the hobbit so I've tried reading it a couple of times as an adult, and I can't get into them. Seems boring to me.

Same thing happened with Laverne & Shirley. I used to love it and I can't watch it anymore (I'm so unsophisticated!!!).

Horcruxes are where you can store bits of your soul so as to make you immortal.

Marivi: You know, after you wrote the explaination of a Hrocrux, I'm now second guessing my own opinion. Can we truely say that Voldermort transfered a part of his soul when he attacked Harry as a baby or is it powers. And now that I write this, I can't tell the difference <g>. So, I'm standing behind my first opinion, that Harry himself may have a piece of Voldermort's soul. But as Voldermort has a bit of Harry's blood in him (see GOF), this might yet play well in the last book at the final confrontation (am I getting as geeky about HP as I did with LOTR?).

Has anyone read Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff yet? Looks like that'll be my next read after Allende.

Yes! I read Lamb! It was hilarious!!!! Wacky, but hilarious. The full title is Lamb: The Gospel according to Biff, Christ's childhood friend. It's the story of Jesus's early childhood and beyond, as told by Biff, his best friend and forgotten apostle. It is very obviously fiction, but unlike The Last Temptation of Christ, is probably not as offensive to true believers.

Getting back to HP, wouldn't it seem that creating a Horcrux has to be a voluntary and purposeful undertaking? If Voldemort did store some of his soul in a locket, or that diary, it seems he would have done so on purpose. It seems unlikely to me that he would accidentally store some of his soul in Harry.

How does V have some of Harry's blood? I've forgotten.

Laurie, I agree. There's part of me that doesn't want to read the Narnia chronicles again because I have such fond memories of them. Would re-reading them ruin them for me? Could be.

My wife is reading Lamb and the Allende book right now, but needs to finish the Allende book first for our own book club (as do I). She's really enjoying it though and wants me to read it as well. You can hear her in the backround while reading at times laughing out loud because of it.

Voldermort took some of Harry's blood in Wormtail's rebirthing potion in GOF. Remember how Dumbledore's eye's gleamed at hearing about this? Dumbledor probably realized that Voldermort did something that in the end will work against him. Funny how the wicked always do things that in the end prove to be their undoing <G>. Apparently he wanted Harry's blood, and in actuality, wanted Lilly's blood that was in Harry. Anyway, it'll play again in the end.

Yes, Lamb was a laugh-out-loud book. I know it's had that effect on quite a few readers.

Thanks for the reminder about Harry's blood.

oh yes, duh, I forgot. That was all in this last book. Thanks for the reminder. I've been on muscle relaxants for my back for 4 weeks and I can tell I'm really foggy.

I definitely have to re-read the HP books.

Wow, can you see a college course springing up somewhere to scrutinize the series books? I'd love to take it.

Sue, as opposed to re reading the Hobbit as an adult and thinking of it more as a child's book, I absolutly loved re reading Narnia with my kids about a year ago. I think it was actually way better this time around. What makes Narina so good is that it can be read just for fun as a kid's book or it can be read with the profound theological meaning it has for adults.

When Aslan offers himself to die in Edmund's place, it was as powerful for me as watching the Passion of Jesus movie. In some ways even more powerful, because like all great stories, you feel as if you are in the story yourself. So often in Narnia, my kids would be wondering, "Daddy, why are you crying?"

With LOTR, I haven't reread them since college, and I'm waiting for the kids to be a little older to read it to them, but I think the effect will be similar for me as re reading Narnia.

The one thing that struck me more watching the LOTR movies then reading the books, was the loyalty of Sam to Frodo. That was really powerful for me in the movies. Perhaps though, its more a sign of how I have changed over the years then anything else. Back in the good old days of High School and College I was way more independent and care free. Friends were for fun and adventures. Now, one of the traits I value the most is loyalty and commitment through thick and thin. Perhpas its partially because of the work I do is so often misunerstood by others and so beyond the ability of any one person to ever accomplish it on his own. So loyalty and commitment to one another are an essential part of my life these days.

I just finished The Kite Runner, which was excellent! Has anyone else read it? Highly recommended. It's being made into a movie, directed by Sam Mendes, who made American Beauty.

Mike, I'm with you on the loyalty of Sam in the LOTR. He's pretty much my favorite character.

Sam Mendes! I had such a crush on him before Kate Winslet won his heart...

A book that ya'll might be interested in along the lines of the Chronicles of Narnia is "Hinds Feet On High Places"... awesome book if you are into fantasy! I mean, it carries you into another world! I read the book and then I bought the audio version with sound effects, and I would just lay down, close my eyes and be in another world!

Narnia and the witch and the wardrove were also great books, they were kind of weird, weird beings and weird scenes, but definately a trip to another dimension! I love traveling to other worlds! (via books of course) Its been so long since I read those books though, I need to read them again some da soon... Johnny Tremain was also extremely cool, I remember I was there in the American Revolution!

Yes, Sam's loyalty was strong. Even as a teenager, though, I found it a bit too strong and wierd. Not reading anything into it, but I had to suspend my disbelief in his loyalty and outright love for Frodo. Prior to the Fellowship, there isn't a lot of history about his emotions other than a friendship. At first, he was keeping his word to Gandalf and then it evolved into a deeper emotional tie, which was fine, but I just found it wierd. I guess it is because I have had a hard time relating to that type of loyalty to a same sex friend.

Yes, I would go to the ends of the world for a true friend and confidant, but I have yet to experience that type of bonding. I have heard of that type of bonding in the military, more specifically, in those who have engaged in a mission or have been in a military confrontation and really need to rely on each other...but as I said, I have not experienced that (other than in marriage towards my wife and daughter) I wasn't able to relate to that type of bonding. Hence, my favorite character has always been Gandalf.

Okay, so now I've been reading the Allende's book and have started getting into it. I have not read many Hispanic authors, especially their translations, but I have noticed that Allende, at least in this book (The House of the Spirits), that the narratives go on quite a bit without decent paragraph breaks. Have others encountered that as a trait of Hispanic writers or is it just this writer in this book? I haven't read others of hers so I was just wondering.

John, I remember reading Hispanic writers and thinking the same thing. Haven't done it in a long time because the writing is more intense to me than writers in English. I just thought it was me, but maybe it's not . . .

Yeah, John, I agree that back in High School, I would have thought of Sam as almost gay. But I have a whole different perspective on profound same sex friendships then I did back then. Even though I've never been to war, I have had both the agony of betrayl and the privalage of profound loyalty, that has given me a whole different view of deep friendships that I never had back then.

Gandalf, of course is great, but he's beyond human. He has super powers, super wisdom, super goodness. He even resurrects from the dead. In other words, even though he is so cool, he's not my favorite cuz I can't really relate to him.

So my favorite is Frodo. He is just an average guy who goes out and accomplishes the greatest feat in all of history, and he does it with no super powers and no super wisdom. Of course it does help that he is sorrounded by super friends. But in the end it's just him and Sam. But what makes Frodo so great and uniquely qualified to destroy the ring are two qualities that many people often overlook, but which I very highly admire: Meekness and perseverance.

But Frodo would never have been able to destroy the ring without Sam! Didn't Sam literally carry Frodo to the place where the ring would be destroyed? And think back the Two Towers (book, not movie), where Sam saved Frodo after the Shelob got him and the Orcs were holding him prisoner in that tower.

It really is hard to pick a favorite character because they're all so great and well developed. Gandalf, Legolas, Grimli, Aragorn, Merry, Pippin... the whole lot. Each unique with unique strengths.

Mike: I don't remember thinking of Sam as gay back in High School. I don't think I really knew what being gay really was back then either, come to think of it. It was more of not really relating to such a strong bonding to a male.

I related to Gandalf more, not because of his superhuman qualities as much as his understanding of right vs. wrong. Understading what tempts him and others, and his understanding of his friends and enemies. Also, I found his manipulation techniques very cunning <g>.

I like Frodo, an admire him as well, but as Sue puts it, in the end, he fell to the same temptation as all of the other Ring bearers. He turned on his loyal companion, and entrusted his enemy to his fate. In the end, Frodo did not destroy the ring. Gollum did (though by mistake). Though one will always wonder what Sam would have done in the end if he had to finish the job. Would he have also succumb to the powers of the Ring and not destroyed it? I wonder if Elrond would have 300+ years back if he had taken possesion of the ring instead of Isildur. Hmmmmmm....

Laurie, glad I'm not the only one either <g>.

Laurie, John, Y'all are not alone! Maybe that's also why I could not stand James Joyce and that crowd.

John, just to clarify, I didn't say that I thought Sam was gay, I said "allmost gay". Although obviously there is no sexual relationship at all between Sam and Frodo. Maybe a better way to say it was that in my perception back then, Sam was kind of feminine in his relationship to Frodo. And yet his intense loyalty and protectiveness of Frodo led him to the utmost of "masculine" behavior, risking his life to save Frodo.

I totally agree that Frodo could not have destroyed the ring with out the others and especially Sam. Anything truly great and important in life is beyond the ability of any single person to accomplish. We all need help to accomplish the really important things in our lives. I think that is one of the main messages of the "Fellowship of the Ring". We need each other and yet its hard cuz we all have our faults that threaten to destroy the unity of the team.

And in the end Frodo falling prey to the power of the ring, just goes to show that no one is perfect, not even Frodo. In Christian terminology, I think Tolkein was communicating that we are all sinners. No one is beyond the corrupting power of temptation. We will all fail morally sooner or later. Frodo was so amazing in having gotten so far with out falling to the temptation of the ring. And again from my Chrstian perspective that is why I so admire meekness and perseverance, they lead to moral victory.

Mike, I agree about the characters (though I do not necessarily share your Christian interpretation of Tolkien's intent), and I don't believe any one of them could not have been tempted by the ring (how's that for a double negative). Hence why, during the council of Elrond, no-one could/would come up with the right solution or offer to be the one to destroy it. Even Gandalf understood that if he carried the ring, even briefly, he could fall to the temptation as well. Oh, and sorry, didn't mean to suggest you thought Sam was gay.

Carmen, I agree. I have yet to finish a James Joyce novel (and an Allende one for that matter <G>).

One last post on the Christian intent of Tolkien!

I think this sight gives a "fair and balanced" summary of both Tolkien's personal background and his intent in LOTR.

http://www.chriscmooney.com/article_db.asp?id=293

Basically Chris Mooney is saying that Tolkien was indeed a very devout Catholic who led CS Lewis to Christianity. But when it came to book writting, Tolkien believed in being very subtle about his religous views, where as CS Lewis (Narina, etc.) believed in being very overt. So Tolkien's Catholic beliefs are so subtle that it can very easly be read as a non Christian novel. Or many of the values presented in the book can be Christian but they can also belong to other belief systems too. Mercy, Perseverence, etc.

Here's a quote from the article that kind of summerizes it.

"In a 1953 letter Tolkien described "The Lord of the Rings" as a "fundamentally religious and Catholic work."

But Tolkien's views -- on both religion and fiction -- were complex. In another letter, Tolkien outlined his aspiration to create a new mythology for England, describing the existing body of Arthurian legend as inadequate for the role because it "explicitly contains the Christian religion." (He added, "That seems to me to be fatal.") References to real-world belief systems, Tolkien thought, would detract from the beguiling timelessness he hoped to convey. Tolkien's characters inhabit a pre-Christian version of our own world; they don't worship, carry on religious rituals, or talk about faith. Commentators have noted similarities between Tolkien's trilogy and Wagner's "Ring Cycle," which also put Europe's pagan heritage in the service of national myth-making."

Laurie: I don't know if you recall, in an email I mentioned to you that my favorite Catholic author is Peter Kreeft? In any case he has written a book called "The Philospohy of Tolkien", outlining the Catholic philosophy in LOTR, dividing it into 50 different categories! And says it can be used as an introduction to philosophy. I might buy it to use as a read along companion, whenever I get around to reading LOTR to my daughters.

Good article on the debate. Chris did a good job pointing out the different angles that one can take of Tolkien's interpretation. I like how he ended the article with Birzer's quote, which I also agree with. The reason that I have a harder time interpreting it as a strickly Christian novel is that I take into account all of his works and see the LOTR as the final chapter to the whole history of Middle Earth. If you read the Silmarillion, the precursor to even the Hobbit (though completed after the LOTR, and by his son Christopher), you may see the more of the mythology, and less of the Christian theme in it all. Then again, I choose to want to see something less modern in that mythological history.

Great analysis though, Mike. Thanks for pointing me in that area as I had not looked at his books that way.

Now, I have to ban Tolkien from my home library...<sigh--jj>

Don't ban Tolkien from your home! That would be sacrilegious!

On to very overtly Christian. I was in Mexico City yesterday to get my religous worker's Visa extended and ran by the Christian bookstore and was very excited to find the Book "żPor Qué No la Mujer?" I already bought the book in English, but am so glad it is available in Spanish so that every man in our church can read it.

The point of the book is that overall, through out the centuries Christians have often devalued women both in their ability to serve and just for who they are as humans. The author describes how this prejudice is really a result of the Greek and Roman cultures which devalued women and influenced the Christian church to also devalue women. But when one studies directly what the Bible teaches about women, they are totaly equal to men in value and worth and ability. Verses that are used to keep women out of leadership and in unequal marraige relationships have actually been misunderstood and misapplied

Anyway I am so excited about this, cuz this is a real passion of mine...to defend and elevate women to all that God has created them to be. (I wonder if that is why God gave me 3 daughters and no sons!)

Now that I will be teaching at the Bible Institute, I would love to teach a course based on this book, to begin to transform the Mexican macho culture, so that women can be freed up to reach their full potential and worth both in the church and in their homes. If I can just manage to transform that stupid machismo in my region of Mexico in my time I will have done well. If over the years I can send out 50 or 100 pastors into rural Mexico with a whole new attitude towards their wives, daughters and women in general, then I will have accomplished much!

Very interesting, Mike. What is the title of the book in English?

Not to get off on a tangent here... but what about that whole "submit to your husbands" bit? Has that been misinterpreted?

Sue, I´m at an internet cafe right now, and I didn´t bring the book with me, but I think the title in English is "Why Not Women". It is co-authored by (I think) Loren Cunningham and Dave Hamilton. Let me check on that though and I'll get back to you.

The "submit to your husbands..." verse, though not addressed in the Why Not Women book, is a typical example of how verses are misinterpeted and misapplied. In this case for many men to treat their wives more like servants then wives.

Not to get into a whole long explanation, let me just quote a little bit more of the text (the part husbands never like to quote).

"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord." (Ephesians 5:21-22)

So whatever the word submit means, according to vs. 21 it means that both husband should do it with their wives and wives with their husbands and everybody with each other. There is no biblical justification for one group of people to force another group of people to submit to them. (OK, parents with their children, depending on how you look at it)

Furthermore a little farther down in vs. 25, Paul begins to tell husbands how they should treat their wives, and he says "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

How did Christ love the church? Humbly, sacrificially, unselfishly, always seeking what was best for his followers (his church). Not only did he die on the cross to save his church (if you happen to believe that), but day in and day out he sacrificially served his followers. Some passages of the Bible talk about him being so busy serving others that he didn't even have time to stop and eat.

So when you look at the whole context, its a whole different ball game. Everyone needs to submit to each other, not just wives to husbands and husbands have to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

Sorry - just happened to pop in -- a thought that comes to mind though is that in Mexico, besides the stereotypical "machismo" - woman is elevated in the forms of the Mary -- to the extent that she is prayed to much more than Christ. In addition, a problem in Mexico is not so much that the wife is less than man, but that the wife is "less" or not as good as the man's mother. There is no greater saint to this mexican "macho" than his mother. In addition, perhaps you are referring to the city mentality because in areas of Mexico, especially throughout Tehuantepec, the woman is the head of the householsd and the one who manages the money -- in addition, many of the land inheritances in Mexico's provincia is passed down through maternal lines. Woman is not as submissive in many parts of Mexico as one would think ---
I hope this is not too off your discussion, I just popped in here in search of the goblet of fire and haven't read all you are dicscussing so excuse me if I am out of place or if my comments do not relate to anything. Saludos a todos

Putting someone on an altar also has the effect of keeping them out of the way, though. And altars are so easy to kick out from under... (Don't even get me started on the madonna/whore complex.)

Mike: You are doing important work. I may not agree with your views on religion, but anyone who works to combat machismo in Mexico has my support.

Well, just got back from Madrid and guess what is STILL not on the bookshelves .... HP6!!!! Can you believe it?? NOt till the end of the year. It's available here already in French and Dutch, what the hell???? What's the hang up with the Spanish edition??

Also, been through the whole Mary Russell/Sherlock Holmes series by Laurie King. OMG!!! Soooooo good. Better even than Conan Doyle. I love MR, girl power!!, she is a student of theology at Oxford and a student of/apprentice to Sherlock Holmes. The books are their adventures!! solving puzzling events. But so much more - a bit of history and other stuff. Clever. Starts with the Beekeeper's Apprentice through like 6 more. The latest is Locked Rooms which I have not read ... yet.

Mike, might be interesting to get into all that stuff in the original Hebrew and Greek. It's beyond my interests anymore to learn new alphabets and such foreign languages, but it seems to me that working with the oldest texts would probably bring out much more of original intention.

Kassem, welcome to the discussion. No, your comments aren't too off discussion as the Bible is another books we could get into (though some of us may choose to stay off of the subject as there is another topic board dedicated to it -- About the Bible though it may be a bit outdated).

If you go back to the beginning of this topic board (already over 100 msgs?) you'll find some healthy discussions about HP and where some of us stand in our assumptions and beliefs. But we always welcome returning to that topic, over and over, as that is what united us with books to begin with (and I'm only a recent contributor).

On a general topic, is there another book we all should read and then analyze?

Kassem, very good and very insightful comments. I would like to reply to them. But since right now I have no internet connection at my house and I have to get home now, it will have to wait for another time.

Marivi, glad to see you posting here. I just left a note for you back on the class of 80 site. I am sorry you felt hurt and hope that eventually you do chose to post with our class again.

Oh what the heck, just a "brief" comment. The book "Why Not Women" is not specifically about Mexico. It is written to address prejudice against women in leadership in Christian churches in a general world wide sense. However a lot of it can be applied to the specfic Mexican situation.

It is very true what you (Kassem) say about the wife never measuring up to her husband's mother. I see that constantly. I have not done a sociological/psycological study of how culture impacts religion in Mexico. But I think that the catholic religion in Mexico is very much a reflection of the stereo typical Mexican family.

God the Fatehr is very distant and when He does come near, he is very much to be feared cuz he is probably going to be angry and judgemental with you. (Just like the typical Mexican macho father)

Then there is the virgin Mary who really has taken the position of Jesus as the Savior. She is merciful, protective and intercedes on your behalf with the "Father", just as the typical Mexican mother. No wonder she is so revered in Mexico.

(sorry this isn't a book discussion, but maybe I'll write a book on it someday)

There are two kinds of women that the stereotypical Mexican man worships. The pure holy virgn and the sex goddess. Just go into any man kind of business, (car mechanic, etc), what do you see on the wall of the work place. An alter to the virgin and right next to it, naked or semi naked "sex godesses".

I have never been to Tehuantepec, but just the other day, I heard that the women there are the ones who run the family in a very strong way. They may be the excepetion to the rest of Mexico.

I would say that in Mexico in general, especially the lower you go in the class level, women may run the show, because the man is at worst a lazy drunk with many women on the side or in many cases at best, struggling to make a meager living, but not really taking on any more responsibility in the home then being the bread winner, so the wife does everything else. The woman in many ways contributes way more to the family then the man does, yet she is still treated very badly.

Obviously this is not always the case. But having lived in the provincia of Mexico for the last 6 years I think this fits in a general sense, especially in the lower class and somewhat in the middle class.

Carmen, when I get internet back in my new house, I'll give you an example of how the original Greek supports women in leadership in the Bible, but over the years has been translated to actually seem anti women, espcially in the areas of leadership in church.

No need, Mike, unless you think it would be interesting to others. I have seen examples which is why I mentioned it. I think if the Church had been able to hang on to at least even the spirit of the EARLY Church, I might be a more commited RC than I am today. Which by the way, is not much at all.

So this doesn't totally dodge the "book club" theme: these are two books I really enjoyed on the topic "How the Irish Saved Civilization" and "The Gifts of the Jews". By somebody Cahill. Parts of a series he is writing that he calls the hinges of history.

I think it was really tough for the early Christian church to be totally counter culture in so many ways to bring about a total Christian change. Since it's so much easier to allow yourself to be influenced by the predominant culture, rather then change it (and not by force, but rather by persuasion) that over the years in many ways the Christian church assumed many aspects of the Greek and Roman culture. But not without making very many positive changes along the way.

For example, from what I've read, it was the Christian culture which led to changes not just in laws, but also in attitudes that previoulsy allowed female babies to just be left out in the woods to die, brought an end to the gladiator fights, obviously brought an end to polytheism, emperor worship, etc.

I've heard of "How the Irish Saved Civilization" and am intrested in reading it? Why did you enjoy it? And "The Gifts of the Jews"?

Edited by author 10-25-2005 10:55 AM
OK, I'm cheating. The books are very well written and very readable, if you get what I mean. There is scholarship behind them but written for lay and even totally secular readers. They are not meant, I'm sure, for serious students of theology. But that's not where the series is going. It continues with "The Desires of the Everlasting Hills" and "Sailing the Wine Dark Sea". This last I didn't find as strong as the others.

So, voila! Here are the editorial comments at Amazon:

The Irish:
Amazon.com
In this delightful and illuminating look into a crucial but little-known "hinge" of history, Thomas Cahill takes us to the "island of saints and scholars," the Ireland of St. Patrick and the Book of Kells. Here, far from the barbarian despoliation of the continent, monks and scribes laboriously, lovingly, even playfully preserved the West's written treasury. When stability returned in Europe, these Irish scholars were instrumental in spreading learning, becoming not only the conservators of civilization, but also the shapers of the medieval mind, putting their unique stamp on Western culture.

From Publishers Weekly
An account of the pivotal role played by Irish monks in transcribing and preserving Classical civilization during the Dark Ages.
Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc.

The Jews:
Amazon.com
Thomas Cahill, author of the bestselling How the Irish Saved Civilization, continues his Hinges of History series with The Gifts of the Jews, a light-handed, popular account of ancient Jewish culture, the culture of the Bible. The book is written from a decidedly modern point of view. Cahill notes, for instance, that Abraham moved the Jews from Ur to the land of Canaan "to improve their prospects," and that the leering inhabitants of Sodom surrounded Lot's lodging "like the ghouls in Night of the Living Dead." The Gifts of the Jews nonetheless encourages us to see the Old Testament through ancient eyes--to see its characters not as our contemporaries but as those of Gilgamesh and Amenhotep. Cahill also lingers on often-overlooked books of the Bible, such as Ruth, to discuss changes in ancient sensibility. The result is a fine, speculative, eminently readable work of history. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

From Library Journal
Cahill argues that the greatest gifts of the Jews are the linear theory of history (vs. the cyclical theory of other ancients), with its implication that life can get better and avoid decline and the idea of the equality and dignity of each individual that culminated in the declaration that "All men are created equal." Other gifts include the concepts of universal brotherhood, peace, and justice. (LJ 3/15/97)
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

The Hills:
Amazon.com
Desire of the Everlasting Hills is another present from the pen of Thomas Cahill, author of How the Irish Saved Civilization and The Gifts of the Jews. In this third volume of the bestselling Hinges of History series, he knits together history, politics, sociology, and faith with contemporary insights that yield remarkable results.
After painting with broad brush strokes an entertaining picture of the Greek, Jewish, and Roman world, Cahill focuses on Jesus. With illuminating deductions and clever speculation, Jesus is seen though the eyes of his biographers in their Gospel accounts. Each of these authors' lives is reconstructed in such a way that the richness of their writing and their subject matter is wonderfully enhanced.

The section on Paul, detailing how his life and letters shaped the early church, should be required reading for every student of the Bible. From his beginnings in the cosmopolitan city known as Tarsus through his calling, like the patriarchs and prophets before him, he becomes "the perfect vehicle for this moment in the development of the Jesus Movement." His mix of Greek reasoning with rabbinical training casts the stories of the early church into a thoughtful theology. He is seen here as the earliest egalitarian who not only impacted the early church but all of western civilization.

Cahill challenges many traditional religious ideas while also taking on some of the more radical contemporary interpreters of biblical literature. As with the other volumes in this series, the marginal notes are filled with a wealth of interesting information. Combining his own fresh translation of many New Testament highlights with respect and humor, Thomas Cahill's book is for the believer and nonbeliever alike. --Tracy Danz--This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

From Publishers Weekly
Cahill, no stranger to sweeping historical narratives (The Gifts of the Jews; How the Irish Saved Civilization), triumphs again with this imaginatively written account of Jesus and the early Christian Church. Cahill begins in the manner of most Jesus books, with the Greco-Roman world of the three centuries before Jesus, but here Greece and Rome come to life in Cahill's depiction of their violent despotism. Cahill has an eye for the common person's experience of war, famine and religious upheaval, and it is with this vantage point that he shows readers why Jesus' message of peace and forgiveness was so very startling. Cahill is familiar with biblical scholarship of the origins of the Gospels and their various theological differences, but he is more interested in how ordinary folks might have received Jesus, whom he portrays as "no ivory-tower philosopher but a down-to-earth man" who "hugely enjoyed a good dinner with friends." Although this idea is by no means original, Cahill presents Jesus with infectious energy, and his take on Mary is certainly fresh. "With her keen sense of retributive justice," as evidenced in the Magnificat, Cahill writes, Mary was disappointed with Jesus' odd admonitions to turn the other cheekAshe had been "counting on something with more testosterone in it." The best chapter of all is on Paul, whose theological contributions are beautifully recapitulated for the layperson (Cahill also rightly highlights "Paul's perceptiveness, even craftiness, in dealing with other human beings"). There are a few glosses in the book, including instances in which Cahill elevates pious legend to fact; for example, he asserts that the remains of Simon Peter's home "may still be seen at Capernaum, when in fact the home's history has by no means been stablished. Overall, however this is an engrossing portrait of Jesus through the eyes of His family and followers.
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to the Hardcover edition.


The Greeks:
From Publishers Weekly
In this elegant introduction to Greek life and thought, Cahill provides the same majestic historical survey he has already offered for the Irish, the Jews and the Christians. He eloquently narrates the rise of Greek civilization and cannily isolates six archetypal figures representative of the development of Greek thinking. He opens with a consideration of Homer's Iliad and its glorification of the warrior way as an exemplum of life in the Greek state. Cahill then proceeds to offer an evolutionary look at the rise and fall of Greece by examining the wanderer (Odysseus), the politician (Solon), the playwright (Sophocles, Aeschylus, Euripides), the poet (Sappho), the philosopher (the pre-Socratics, Plato, Aristotle) and the artist (Praxiteles). These figures provide lessons in how to feel, how to rule, how to party, how to think and how to see. For example, Cahill contends that Odysseus reveals longing and desire for love, domestic peace and his homeland, while the rage of Achilles offers us lessons in the way to fight for one's homeland. The book is full of whimsical characterizations, such as the depiction of Socrates as a "squat, ugly, barefoot man who did not bathe too often." The author includes generous portions of the original writings in order to provide the flavor of the Greek way. Once again, Cahill gracefully opens up a world that has provided so much of Western culture's characteristic way of thinking.
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.

From School Library Journal
Adult/High School--Cahill has set himself a daunting task in Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea, in which he seeks to make the ancient Greeks accessible to a modern audience. Yet he succeeds. The author examines ancient Greek civilization through a number of specific roles that underpinned that society, such as the warrior, the politician, and the philosopher. He delves into their development and shows how they exemplified and perpetuated the different aspects of behavior and thought that defined their times. The use of specific types with whom readers can relate makes for an effective means of bridging the gap between their civilization and ours. With this common ground established, Cahill can show exactly how ancient Greece has influenced western civilization today, such as in the approach to the military and in the creation of the system by which we organize our knowledge and methods of learning. Scholars of the subject might quibble with certain of the author's pronouncements, and he seems to have an overly dismissive attitude toward the civilization of ancient Rome. Yet there can be no gainsaying the fact that Cahill has succeeded in his goal; by the end of the book, readers can thoroughly understand why the ancient Greeks matter to us today.--Ted Westervelt, Library of Congress, Washington, DC
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

When I was in Ireland a few years ago, I got to see the Book of Kells (a handwritten copy of the Bible by Irish monks way back in the Dark Ages.) I also got to read a little about the work of the Irish monks and missionaries. Being a pastor, the things they did were truly inspirational to me. They were literaly willing to die to preserve the Bible and Christian values in the midst of Viking invasions, etc. They had a huge part in preserving Christianity and in bringing Europe out of the Dark Ages. Which is why I am intrested in reading "How the Irish Saved Civilization."

The "Official church" became corrupt and backwards being a huge part of Europes plunge into the Dark Ages. But in little obscure and remote places like some of the Irish monks there were small groups of Christians who kept alive not only real Christianity, but also a pursuit of real knowledge through out the Dark Ages. In other wrods they were the keys to both the Reformation and the Renassaince.

Edited by author 11-03-2005 01:11 AM
Sorry to pop in again --

Mike C: Irish monks and monks in general " had a huge part in preserving Christianity and in bringing Europe out of the Dark Ages" as you say-- I don't agree. The monks did all they could do keep everyone ignorant. The great books that they worked on and preserved was just for thier inner club -- no one out of the monestary could see them, nor were they allowed to read them. The monks did their best to destroy all level of education humanity had developed --- if we were saved from the dark ages it was because of Islam. That culture preserved the books of greek philosophers, they were scientists and were good in astonomy, math, algebra and all other types of science that the monks referred to as heresy and destroyed.
We had a copy of how the Irish Saved the Civilization --- it was boring as hell! My opinion. What thei irish did for civilization? Dance and music! they are the culture with rythm in northern europe -- they also love drama and have had great writers -- and of course they have the art of Blarney and lots of sayings -- next to mexicans they have a prayer for everything --- they are good people, I should know, my kids are half irish -- but back to the point, thank goodness for that first wave of Islam and for the value they gave science and philosophy. All translations of the great philosophers came to us from arabic ---
The movie was a bad representation of The Name of The Rose -- the book describes the nedieval europe and the monestaries and the going-ons about them -- it is interesting. Umberto Eco's next book, the Pendelum of Foucault also delves into the atrocities of the era. The monks were unfortunately only about and for themselves -- it is no wonder that the Franciscan order emerged by those who actually cared about the populace.
Unfortunately, in modern days, Islam has no redeeming values for us to learn and exhalt and absorb into our mainstream -- but we do owe them a gratitude -- thanks to them Europe developed the concept of running water, fountains, algebra, banking, etc.
But, hey, on St Paddy's we are all a bit Irish and a good sip of Guiness does warm the soul!

Kassem, quit apologizing.

Europe was ironically saved from the dark ages by the Crusades intended to destroy Islam. Contact through trade or war = diffusion.

Soon after the fall of Rome, literacy was not common at all in Europe, even among the nobility and clergy. Later in the MA, education was for the rich, well placed, and male. And with books being produced by hand on sheep skin, it's hardly likely there would be wide availablity of any book.

BTW: LOVED The Name of the Rose. Man, what a scary book. Couldn't get into the Pendulum.

Carmen - so are you saying that Islam's influence by its preservation of volumes and development of science did not take europe out of the MA? But rather that crusades did it? Are you saying that war saved europe? That is an interesting proposition. Considering that men went to war, and the first few crusades ran out of money in the whore houses of Italy and had to go back home, and those crusades that followed actually got off the boats and would walk into the "turks" and let themselves be killed so that they would be guaranteed a place in heaven -- somewhat as moslem exteremists do today. Perhaps the only positive thing going for the men who later follwed was the exposure to middle eastern women whom they brought back home with them and injected a new blood into thier societies --- but I still insist credit has to be given to the occupation of spain by the moslem and by the jewish community which was also a very important factor in the reformation of europe. Plato, Socrates, etc came to us through Islam.
But I agree that many crusaders where probably astonished, as perhaps the Macedonians were years before, by the exotic vibes of the middle east - surely it brought in several aspects of those cultures into a dying europe of the time. I certainly am a diffusionist but believe that it is a much more subtle process than actual war -- but if you mean as a result of the crusade then I would agree. I know that pepper and spices came in with the crusades as well as silks and other materials --

Pendelum was a much harder book to get into, but once you passed the first few chapters it was down hill from there --

True that education was for the rich and male -- but the women were also cloistered and even though much more silent as a part of society they were improving their minds and exerting some influence -- but I guess that is post MA. when they became significant. But in Name of the Rose you get brief descriptions of what cloisterd nuns were doing and I would not call their actions christian nor saintly -- but rather insane dellusions of religious extremism.

That's the irony of course. Learning was preserved in the east but it took the impulse to destroy the eastern culture (which failed) to bring it to the would-be destroyers and thus enhance western culture.

Been reading some Sophie Kinsella popcorn books. Amusing, nothing to think about. I like her Shopaholic books best.

Carmen - well, maybe, but there are several hundred years and thousand of miles between the crusades and the moors in Spain. BTW, did you see that recent movie on the crusades, City of God or soemthing like that? It does expose the fact that different crusaders were enemies of the others and not everything was of a holy order.

I know nothing about Kinsella - I've been indulging in one of my favorite authors, Michael Connelly. Writes detective novels mostly centered in the Los Angeles area. I was a big Hardy Boys reader when I was young and I think the "mystery" and "who-done-it" genre was embedded in my literary taste.

Seriously, Miguel, you are very welcome here. No need to apologize.

Did anyone read The Journeyer by Gary Jennings? It was a fictional account of Marco Polo's journey from Italy through the Middle East and India on his way to China. It was a great read. Gary Jennings also wrote Aztec, which was about a native Aztec Indian who had travelled throughout Mexico and gave an account to a Spanish dignitary. It was set at the time that Spain was in the midst of conquering Mexico. Also a great read.

I haven't read The Name of the Rose, but did see the movie, which I enjoyed. Is the book that much better? They usually are, of course.

Ok - so I won't apologize again - made clear
Jennings is a great author - I read Aztec, Aztec 2, and had the third part in line at one time (or are there 4 tomes) anyway, I did read a lot of Journeyer, can't reacall why I didn't finish it -- and then got his book on Vikings, or some ancient northern tribe and it started out with the main character being a hemaphrodite and I kinda said that was a bit too much and dropped it. But Aztec was superb. I mentioned it in our class QT and someone told me The Stoty of Huemac, don't remember the author, was even better. I have not yet read the latter.
The Name of the Rose in print is far superior than the movie - the historical detail Eco put into his book are lacking in the movie -- it is well worth a read.

Sue, when did I apoligize? Must have done it without even realizing it. Sorry for apoligizing, I promise I won't do it again:)

The reason I hardly posted at all lately was because I just moved and it took Telmex over a month to install a new phone line. So I only occasionally posted from an internet cafe.

But thanks for reassuring me that I am welcome!

Kassem, I'm sure that Islam and Judaism had a huge part in reintroducing science and progress into Europe. And I am also sure that monastaries in a big way were very closed to progress. But it isn't all so one sided. Christianity in my opinion has made a bigger contribution to morality, equality and democracy (the very things which truly allow civilizations to progress) then any other religion or culture.

Going way back to the Book "Why Not Women", we certainly didn't get equality for women from the Muslims, nor democratic governments, freedom from slavery, etc. Those are Biblical concepts, ignored by many monks and other supposed upholders of the Christian faith fro centuries, but that were able to come back into society with the Protestant Reformation. I have not read "How the Irish saved civilization, nor do I consider myself an expert on that topic, but from the little I know, theoretically, amongst the Irish monks were some who helped preserve and spread those Christian values that are so valuble to society (such as equality, freedom and democacy). The little light that refused to go out in the midst of the massive Dark Ages.

The Protestant Reformation then led to the Renaisance.

Mike C - well, I don't think Christianity gave "equality to women" either -- have womern ever gotten a fair deal? Christianity did give us morality, but in many ways the "church" of the middle ages gave us immorality.

Sorry, Mike, different Miguel. I was referring to Miguel Kassem, who I noticed posts with just his last name. So have you finally achieved internet access at home? Congrats.

Believe it or not, there were some ways that Muslims were far more advanced than Christians when it came to women, that was until the Wahabbists took over. Mohammed was really quite progressive for his time. For example, women were allowed to own property, which was certainly not part of western civilization for years. But isn't it often the case that the original message is polluted along the way by those who would pervert it to grab power?

Edited by author 11-08-2005 05:33 PM
Hello folks. I just came back from our local library with my six-year old and I saw one of Neal Shusterman's newest books out on display called Dread Locks from his Dark Fusion series. Has anyone read his books or have a teenager who has? Just curious on what our group of critics think of one of our alum writers. I may check it out and give it a read...

Edited by author 11-08-2005 05:37 PM
Oh, yeah, almost forgot. Here's his website for those that don't know it: http://www.storyman.com

Sue, at the AHS I always went by Mike, but nobody outside of this chat line ever calls me Mike anymore. I'm either Michael or way more frequently since I live in Mexico now, I go by Miguel. And since I didn't know Kassem's first name, I just assumed you were talking about me.

John, I haven't read any of Niel's books, but did glance at a few of them, including Dread Locks, during our reunion this past summer. They looked really good, creative and intresting.

M Cadena - a manera de presentacion, I am Miguel Kassem, from the glorious class of 77 -- during which time I was known as that thing one speaks into --- MIKE . What class were you from -- I can tell that you are a great guy, mostly because of your name. Saludos

Kassem, don't get me wrong. In no way am I defending the majority of the church of the Middle Ages which was for the most part extremely corrupt.

What I am saying is that in the midst of all of that corruption there were a few church leaders who remained true to their faith and who when the time was right for change, were a big part of that positive change that led to the Reformation and the Renaissance. Even the word reformation acknowledges that there was something very wrong that needed to be reformed.

I would say that when Christians do really live by the Bible, they have brought all sorts of freedom and equality to all sorts of different groups, including women. But the whole point of the book "Why Not Women", is that often, right up to the 21 century, the Chrstian church still does nto treat women totally with equal worth and value and ability as men.

So I think that Christianity has done a lot of good to bring equality to women, but not enough. Its still falling short.

Miguel, good to know you or get reaquainted. I'm from the class of 80. You probably knew my brother Jose (or Joe), who was in your class, but got expelled like around his sophmore year and ended up graduating from Lomas High School

Cadena - well, I am sure there were and are some good church leaders who actually try to live an exemplary life that somewhat resembles closely the gospel's teachings. I came in too late to catch on to the book discussion of "Why Not Women" -- well, that could be used for a lot of arguments -- but I will venture to agree that if people were truly "christian", and we would have to make sure we agree on a definition, then there is a greater sense of equality.

Yes, I know your brother well -- I hear from him almost every day. there was the time we ........ oops, better not tell you. But it was he that burped..... he is a good guy and still owes me a batch of tamales. Good to get re-acquainted with you --- do you live in Texas also???

Miguel, don´t worry, you can tell me about my brother. I probably already knoe it anyway. I'll remind him about the tamales.

I live in Mexico. Up until a month ago I lived in Ixtapan de la Sal, where another of your class mates (Eduardo San Roman) lives part time. But last month I moved to Tenancingo, which is about 30 minutes from Ixtapan.

MC - I was kidding about Joe -- well, not the Tamales. And in 7th grade there were these burping contests, but best left unsaid -- never got into any trouble w Joe -- I don't even think it was his idea to do the cherry bomb thing -- oh well. He keeps me well supplied with jokes and little movie vignettes.

Time to re-read HP Goblet of Fire. Movie opens the 18th. The trailer looks great. But I bet the movie leaves stuff out of a big fat book like that.

Yes - can't wait for it to come out -- all movies have missed stuff from thr book, but they have a life of thier own -- the GOF promises to be action packed and we are very much looking forward to it --

Here's a good one for you bibliophiles out there...

In the case of good books, the point is not how many of them you can get through, but rather how many can get through to you.
-Mortimer J. Adler, philosopher, educator and author (1902-2001)

Yay! It's almost the 18th! Although getting near a movie screen to see HP is going to be near darn impossible at least til next week or the week after. The trailers look really good, don't they?

Neil is a really wonderful storyteller - I've read 3 of his books thus far and they kept me engaged. He's also won all kinds of awards for his writing.

Sue -- I guess that could give a new meaning for "digesting a book"??

So - has anyone seen the movie yet???

Yep, saw it yesterday. It was pretty good. The new characters were well cast. It did feel a bit condensed, because the 3rd task came right after the Yule Ball, and wasn't it near the end of the year in the book? They did have to leave alot out... Wasn't it a house elf who stole Harry's wand, which was used to conjure the dark mark? Can't remember her name, but she was always crying... Anyway, in the movie, not a house elf in sight. And all the stuff with Karkaroff and Barty Crouch and Krum was glossed over completely. But, they did get all the main tasks, and all the main clues given to Harry leading up to them. The scene in the prefect's bathroom with Moaning Myrtle was well done. I give it a thumbs up, and definitely worth seeing on the big screen. Now we have so long to wait for the book and the next movie....

Actually the screenplays for the next 2 books are being written simultaneously! The same guy who did the adaptation for the first 4 movies begged off #5 so he could finish some other projects, then read #6 and said he wanted back on! Of course they said yes.

This was in an interview in the Sunday LA Times, Calendar section.

I enjoyed the movie, though I believe it left many important things out which will come to play at the end (and obviously in the next two books). I'm curious if the screenplay for OOTP will include the discrepancy between the ministry and Dumbledore, Bill Weasley and Fleur, etc.

Spoiler


Also, in the movie, I didn't like that they made Harry's cut to look similar to the dark mark on Bartie. I also missed Winkee (sp?).

It seems they'll have to included the Ministry/Dumbledore bit. I'm wondering who they will cast as Professor Umbrage, evil woman...

So I finally saw the movie the other nite. Yay! Overall, when you condense down a book, especially a really BIG book into a 1.5 or 2 hour movie, things have to be cut out. Overall, I thought they did a terrific job.

Spoiler alert:

I do wonder how they'll make it work in the next once since we didn't see the dementors suck out Barty Crouch Jr.'s soul before he could confirm Harry's story....

Doesn't that woman know we are WAITING for the 7th book!??!?!? Fer crying out loud! And another 2 years for the next movie...EEK! Those kids will be 30 before the series is done!

I'm about to start winter break. Looking forward to reading books bought but not read. Shall report!

This just in...

A study in the British Medical Journal concludes that the number of children who were rushed to the emergency room this summer with traumatic injuries was far lower than usual because the kids were all indoors, reading Harry Potter.

Sue -- I think I may have read that - and I think it said that most of those children brought into the ER with traumatic injuries were those who had tried to role play their favorite scenes in the HP books.

Fifth Harry Potter Movie to Start Filming

- - - - - - - - - - - -

February 03,2006 | LONDON -- A veteran Academy Award nominee and a 14-year-old unknown will join the cast of J.K. Rowling's epic Harry Potter series as filming begins next week on the latest movie, producers said.

Millions of fans across the world are eagerly awaiting the adaptation of Rowling's fifth book -- "Harry Potter and The Order of the Phoenix" -- which sees the return of young actor Daniel Radcliffe in the title role.

Filming will begin Monday in Hertfordshire, a county in southern England. The movie is not slated for release until next year.

The plot centers on the arrival of Dolores Umbridge, an unpopular new professor at wizard academy Hogwarts. She will be played by actress Imelda Staunton, nominated for a 2005 Oscar for her performance in the bleak period drama "Vera Drake."

Potter also wrestles with his attraction to new character Luna Lovegood, a role taken by 14-year-old newcomer Evanna Lynch.

Lynch beat out 15,000 young rivals in an open casting for the part in Britain.

The last film in the series, an adaptation of the fourth book, "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire," was directed by Mike Newell and grossed over $285 million at the box office.

"The Order of the Phoenix" will be helmed by British director David Yates, who last year made the HBO movie "The Girl in the Cafe."

-- Bellatrix Lestrange will be played by Helen McCrory (http://www.wollstrumpf.de/newspics/news_02...5_helen_mccrory.jpg)
-- Natalia Tena will play Tonks (http://atlas.walagata.com/w/imournforsirius/gonetoearth.jpg)

Hey, I didn't know I could upload these pics! Thanks Sue.

Imelda Staunton as Umbridge

I think she is perfect!!!

Hola amigos,

The Class of 80 has had such a great time at our reunions we decided to make a yearly thing of it. And of course, you're all invited. Announcing:

CLASS OF 1980 26-YR REUNION

WHERE?

Hotel Allegro Nuevo Vallarta in Puerto Vallarta
http://www.occidentalhotels.com/hotel_info...hotel=1083088572875
1-800-858-2258

WHEN?

July 14-17, 2006 (Come earlier or stay later if you wish)

This is an all-inclusive hotel. Everybody makes their own reservations and travel arrangements.

See Evite:
http://www.evite.com/pages/invite/viewInvi...PEZ&li=iq&src=email

Saludos,

Gaby Bino

Edited by author 02-10-2006 11:20 AM
What attraction to Luna Lovegood??? I thought it was Cho!

Otherwise, can't wait! Imelda Staunton is going to be great!

Reading 1491 by...Ok, it's downstairs so I don't know by who. Loving it. Mostly expository and don't know if I'm going to agree with everything postulated, but very well written. About the Americas before Columbus/Europe. First saw it as an article in the Atlantic a few years ago. I am, btw, in the camp of they were in the Americas WAY longer than the establishment ever figured...so far.

Carmen, curious, do they broach the topic that is mostly omitted in all of the American history books about the hispańolas? Is it non-fiction or fiction?

Wow. Just finished Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner. Most of the narrative is told by Dubner and Levitt is the "rogue" economists that uses data to answer the obscure question.

I think Marivi might have mentioned this book a while ago on another message board, or at least mentioned Levitt at one point. Interesting stuff, if you're interested in what really contributed to the drop in the crime rate, why drug dealers live with their moms, or whether it is what parents do or who they are that really matters (this is a good one).

Now picking up an Al Franken book for the laughs.

Non-fiction. Super read. Makes me want to have long discussions - says the history teacher. :)!

Have read NOthing the last two weeks. Just lay in bed/on couch and vegetated. Augh!! Que horror! I'm rarely so messed up that I can't even focus on a book.

Reading Pride and Prejudice again. I must now that there's the new movie and the excellent A&E/BBC production. Only thing is Jane Austen used WAY too many words. Good ones, but way too many... OMG! Didn't they have editors then?

I just got back from a trip to Munich and London, where I went to the British Library. They had a number of important hand-written manuscripts, including some original works by Dickens, Tolstoy, Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, and others. Jane Austen's writing desk was also on display. And an early draft of Alice in Wonderland, which included the passage where Alice comes across the cake that says "EAT ME", which was pretty cool. And my next post will show you another important landmark that I visited....

Kings Cross...!

Sue: Thanks for the post! Didn't know they're playing up the book at KC. BTW, if you haven't heard this before, you're looking sweet!

Sue -- I agree with John - you are looking great - makes me wonder where are those English gentlemen to help you to that station???? What fools!!!

Just finished an oldy, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil by John Berendt. Was pretty good. Haven't seen the movie yet (also a few years old).

Has anyone else read it? If you did, did you also get the urge to visit Savannah, GA, after reading it? If so, did you go and was it anywhere near the way he depicted it?

Sue - awesome pict!

Midnight in the Garden of Good & Evil was great and YES! I wanted to go to Savannah while still reading it! The movie is pretty darn good - of course you don't get the same time with all the wonderful characters. Definitely worth a rental.

Haven't made it to that fair city yet though.

I never read Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, but did see the movie. My friend who had read it said that the movie missed all the humor that was in the book. Stephanie, would you agree?

Here's my summer reading list, what I can remember of it, in the order of how well I liked them...

Shutter Island, Dennis Lehane
A Wedding in December, Anita Shreve
The Time Traveller's Wife, ?
A drink before the war, Dennis Lehane
The True and Outstanding Adventures of the Hunt Sisters : A Novel
A is for Alibi, Sue Grafton

I went on a really relaxing vacation and tore through 4 books in about 7 days.

I also finished the Life of Pi, which I had on my iPod and listened to only when I flew somewhere, so it took me way too long. But it was still a good book.

Currently, Shopgirl, by Steve Martin. Waiting for it to pick up and become interesting.

To be honest, the movie did have some humor - but then again, having read the book, I knew what to expect. Many many qwirky (sp?) characters which you don't have time for in a movie.

My summer reading is all about trash, trash and more trash. When's the last Harry book due out?

Loved Garden of Good and Evil. Also waiting for HP7. Damn that woman, what takes her so long??? PS I'm getting to Kings Cross next time I go to London!
Current reads: "Rebecca" again. SOOO goood. And don't tell Julio but also reading "The World is Flat". Very interesting so far.

Can you believe this crap? What do you want to bet she's never read them? What about the triumph of good over evil, or of facing your fears, or of enduring friendships? Why would one woman be so intent on removing them from the library? Why is she not content with just not reading them herself if she finds them so offensive?

Ga. Board: Harry Potter Books Can Stay

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By GREG BLUESTEIN Associated Press Writer

December 14,2006 | ATLANTA -- The Georgia Board of Education voted Thursday to uphold a local school board's decision to leave Harry Potter books on library shelves despite a mother's objections.

The board members voted without discussion to back the Gwinnett County school board's decision to deny Laura Mallory's request to remove the best-selling books.

Mallory, who has three children in elementary school, has worked for more than a year to ban the books from Gwinnett schools, claiming the popular fiction series is an attempt to indoctrinate children in witchcraft.

"It's mainstreaming witchcraft in a subtle and deceptive manner, in a children-friendly format," said Mallory, who is considering a legal challenge of the board's ruling. "The kind of stuff in these books -- murder and greed and violence. Why do they have to read them in school?"

Gwinnett school officials have argued that the books are good tools to encourage children to read and to spark creativity and imagination. Banning all books with references to witchcraft would mean classics like "MacBeth" and "Cinderella" would have to go, they said.

J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter books have been challenged 115 times since 2000, making them the most challenged texts of the 21st Century, according to the American Library Association.

The challenges most often claim that the series encourages children to question adult authority and promotes witchcraft, said Deborah Caldwell-Stone, the deputy director for the association's Office for Intellectual Freedom.

I'm surprised she has kids in school. You'd think she'd be raising her kids in a basement with no TV and blindfolding them on the rare occasion that they leave the house, lest they see any billboards, pagan symbols (Xmas trees! Jack O'lanterns!) or other signs of evil along the way.

Would the United States even exist today if no one dared question authority?

Been a while since I've looked at all the boards...but thought I'd put my two cents in.

I did have a boss that told me the same thing as the woman in the article claims. That it is about magic, witchcraft, evil, and defying authority. I just looked at him and said, "Funny. That's exactly the same reason why I ban my daughter from reading the bible."

That was the end of that discussion.

The end of the discussion and the end of your progression up the corporate ladder, perhaps?!!!

Funny you should mention that (lol).

Got this from a friend:

JK Rowling set up a little game for her Potter fans to discover the Title of Book 7.

If you go to her home page http://www.jkrowling.com/ , click on the eraser and you will be taken to a room - you'll see a window, a door and a mirror.

In the mirror, you'll see a hallway. Click on the farthest doorknob and look for the Christmas tree. They click on the center of the door next to the mirror and a wreath appears. Then click on the top of the mirror and you'll see a garland.

Look for a cobweb next to the door. Click on it, and it will disappear. Now, look at the chimes in the window. Click on the second chime from the right, and hold it down. The chime will turn into the key, which opens the door. Click on the wrapped gift behind the door, then click on it again and figure out the title yourself by playing a game of hangman.

If you think you're able, close this email without reading the clues again and see if you can find the game on your own. Amazing!

John do you really ban your daughter from reading the Bible? HOw come?

Mike, of course not. That was only for my ex-boss' benefit.

I don't believe in banning her from anything, but I may not choose to expose her to items of mature themes in literature before she's ready to understand it. When it comes to the bible, when she's curious enough to want to know what it contains, she'll read it and I won't stop her. However, she's enjoying our Wicca books right now.

"When it comes to the bible, when she's curious enough to want to know what it contains, she'll read it and I won't stop her."

Sounds fair John. If you don't mind, I'd like to make a couple of comments on your comments about the Bible.

"I don't believe in banning her from anything, but I may not choose to expose her to items of mature themes in literature before she's ready to understand it."

Though the Bible is written for adults the vast majority of its content does not contain "mature themes". For a kid to read the Bible, would not be so much like watching something overly graphic, but more like watching a boring adult documentary. It does have its mature theme sections, but they're few. And it has tons of sections which if shared at a kid's level are actualy both very entertaining as well as profitable for them.

"I did have a boss that told me the same thing as the woman in the article claims. That it is about magic, witchcraft, evil, and defying authority. I just looked at him and said, "Funny. That's exactly the same reason why I ban my daughter from reading the bible."

Although the Bible does contain magic, witchcraft, evil and defying authority, that is not what the Bible is ABOUT. The Bible is about life, love, passion, purpose for life, eternity, living everyday in the struggle between good and evil and how though evil will often win victories, corrupting indivudals and societies, in the end God and good will win out.

Although the Bible is a great "book" "word of God" or somewhere in between, it is a book on faith - what you say Mike can be found in much more than the Bible... it can be found in everyday life, because in every day there " life, love, passion, purpose for life, eternity, living everyday in the struggle between good and evil and how though evil will often win victories, corrupting indivudals and societies, in the end God and good will win out." Although I agree that everyone needs to read/study the Old and New Testaments -- let it not be that one can only find God in THE book -- for God, goodness, righteousness, purpose and clarity, and above all, LOVE, can be found in every day we live if we look hard enough.... don't look for God in a book -- for those who wrote of God did not find him there.

Hell, excuse the word, Buzz Lightyear teaches us that "evil never wins"....

Funny how the current Pope banned Harry Potter as something evil... I don't think people actually read the book.

And I agree with you, Mike, that no one should be banned from anything, but there is an age/maturity level to books that needs to be considered.

I aree with you Kassem. No one should try to live life hidden in the Bible alone. The Bible is about life. It isn't life itself. I like two analogies for the Bible. One is a map to guide you through life. a map can help you find your way, but you still have to get out there and travel where ever it is you want to go. You can read the Bible all day long and even memorize it, but it won't help you at all if you don't get out there and live out the life you should live.

The other analogy I like is as a love letter from God to us. If you read it carefully you will discover all over its pages God's amazing, eternal love for us and discovering that lvoe can be very encouraging, motivating, healing, etc. Yet like any love relationship, a relationship with God can not surive only on reading love letters. You have to seek God out personally and develop thatlove relationship with him.

I also agree with being able to find great lessons for life all over the place from Buzz lightyear to the Lion King. In fact we have a book which is a guide to help your children discover great life lessons in kids movies like Finding Nemo, Old Yeller, etc.

I'm not sure why the Pope banned Harry Potter, maybe he's afraid that it will encourage chidlren to get into witchcraft. I've never read the books myself, so I can't really say whether I think they're good or evil, but in my opinion I don't think its very wise to just outright ban a book. From what I've read on this chat line, they seem like they are both exciting and having some good lessons in them too.

Perhaps, what the Pope should do is recommend that parents read the books with their children and help them to discern and apply whatever is good in them and to reject whatever he considers to be evil in them. After all that's what life is really like. There is hardly anything that is either totally good or totally evil. Most of it is a mix of good and evil and parents have to help their children to learn to discern and have the discipline to take what is good and reject what is evil. The church could even publish a parent's guide to help them do this with Harry Potter.

And considering the age, maturity level thing, the church could even give their opinion when they think kids would be mature enough to handle the contents of the book.

But in anycase, all of these opinions are from someone who is neither Catholic and who has never read any of the Harry Potter books.

By the way -- Happy New Year

Mike - very good response, I agree. The only thing I would change is that any church nor be the one to determine the appropriate age/maturity of kids to read a book. I think that is a parental role and do agree that the parents should be reading/examining what a child reads and above all discussing it with them. For Potter, for example, I think I would like to discuss with the child what he/she read, felt about and understood in the book before he/she has the opportunity to discuss with friends teachers etc. Guess the same would be for any scripture.

as for the love letter from God I am sure you are referring to the new testament, because in the love letter in the old testament it is more like a threat of what to expect if behaviour should deviate in any form.

However, like Potter or any other book, one should read the Bible just to be able to give a valid opinion -- either way -- on it.

It makes me wonder, this whole thing about parents who voice against HP so passionately, about home schooling and how many are "brain washing" or "restricting" a normal progression in scientific learning theory for their young. I am sure they are well intentioned, but unless the parent has an objective view of education; and by keeping them out of school for the myriad of reasons we hear about, doesn't that make it subjective in nature?

The popularity of Potter and world wide acceptance would only show the tame nature of the "wich-craft" factor --- could the author fool so many??? I think those against HP need to chill. However, the HP movies are another thing..... I would certainly feel younger children 4 to 6 year olds might not be ready to see some of the films and need to wait until they are older.

Mike, I agree with both you and Kassem. I didn't mean to infer that I wasn't exposing my daughter to the Bible because I felt it was a "mature" subject. I was refering to the difference between banning something versus choosing not to expose her to mature themes.

I agree with your comment, "Although the Bible does contain magic, witchcraft, evil and defying authority, that is not what the Bible is ABOUT." I would also argue the same about the Potter books. It "is about life, love, passion, purpose for life, eternity, living everyday in the struggle between good and evil and how though evil will often win victories, corrupting indivudals and societies, in the end truth and good will win out." Though probably not in the way the reader expects it to.

Regarding film...it is focused on entertaining and engaging one in the moment (a quick phsycho fix leaving the user wanting more). It is difficult to always portray life lessons through that media in this age where "shock and awe" is favored over truth and substance. Similarly, the HP films have a stronger, negative impact on my seven-year old, though they may be entertaining. However, the books engage her at a level that provide her with much more positive imagery an understanding of the positive message coming through.

Happy New Year Guys. Sorry for taking so long to answer. But since my last entry I have now turned 45. So hopefully now that I am older and wiser I will have an even better response for you guys.

I think the church (by this I am talking about all Christians churches) should make recommendations on appropriateness of books to be read, age levels they recommend for reading them, guides to help parents get through books like Harry Potter, Da Vinci Code, etc. I think that the church should make all of these recommendations, even in a very strong way. After all a big part of its job is supposed to be to give godly advice to help parents raise their children. So the church should make the recommendations, but parents have the last word. Ultimately they are the ones responsible for their children, so they have to make the final decision.

Part of the reason why the church should only provide guidelines but each parent make the final decision is cuz every kid is different. Some can handle things at a much younger age then others.

I do believe the church has the right to ban what it considers to be out right major sin, like adultery, witchcraft, etc. And if the members of their church insist on practicing these things and do not repent then the church should have the right to ask those people to no longer be a part of the church.

As far as The Bible being a love letter from God, in my opinion this is found throughout the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments. Not to bore you to much, but right from the beginning you see God create a paradise for Adam and Eve and when they blow it (and the struggle between good and evil begins), he immediately gives them the first prophesy of the coming Savior (Genesis 3) to rescue them and throughout the Old Testament God’s love is seen over and over and over again. Throughout the entire book of Hosea, God compares his love for idolatrous Israel to a woman who commits adultery and yet her husband never stops loving her and pursues her until he wins her back. In Genesis 22 when God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac and intervenes only at the last moment to prevent the sacrifice is partially to show how great God’s love is towards us to sacrifice his son Jesus for our sake. I could go on an on and on, but Jeremiah 31:3 summarizes it this way “I have loved you with an eternal love”. God’s love for us eternal and he expresses it through his entire word towards us.

However you do have a point in that the Old Testament does make reference to God’s judgment, like say for example: God instructing certain enemies to be totally annihilated. To understand this better we need to understand that when God asked for total annihilation he was talking about tribes that were unspeakably evil. For hundreds of years they had done such things as sacrifice their children to false gods, they were committed to destroying Israel (genocide) and after having hundreds of years opportunity to repent they refused to. Their wickedness needed to be stopped in order to save others. I believe it is similar to Muslim terrorists today. I am not advocating the destruction of all Muslims, but I do believe in the destruction of anyone who participates in any Bin Laden type of terrorism. Those people are evil and unless they are destroyed they will continue to kill many innocent people all over the world.

As for making recommendations, isn't it all so subjective? Some could read Harry Potter/Da Vinci code and see heresy while others see enlightenment. I think the idea of a church providing guidelines is fine, but not outright bans.

The whole idea of banning books just doesn't sit well with me. Its association with regimes/governments/institutions that want to control thought and behavior is too strong. And really, if your faith is strong, is it really going to be so threatened by a book that presents a different idea? Books that challenge your ideas are the best kind, in my opinion, and could serve to strengthen your faith, not diminish it.

On a related note, the sales of HP7 on Amazon have made it a best seller already... before it's written, or has a release date!

I'm reading a dumb book right now, but I'm committed, so I can't stop! The story isn't bad, and the characters are likeable enough, but man, the writing is so trite. The review I just read on Amazon said "her prose is pedestrian" and I agree wholeheartedly. So, a question for youse guys... when you're reading a book that your're not enjoying, do you finish it anyway, or do you stop in the middle?

Mike -- Church providing guidelines??? Hummmm - didn't we have that at one time?? Perhaps, The Inquisition? The Church should keep to the Articles of Faith and leave the rest alone -- once they begin to interfere in our private lives and then they want to run our government, schools etc.

I'm not opposed to the Church providing guidelines, but it shouldn't be required to. Similar to other reviews or guidelines provided by Amazon, the New York Times, etc. If Church members need to first hear from the Church in order to make a decision on whether they should read a book or not, then Marx was right when he said that "religion is the opiate of the masses."

As far as to banning books, I am completely against that. If the Church does not wish for their members to commit adultery or witchcraft in the Church, then that is fine. Of course, they do not understand witchcraft in the modern sence, as the first rule is "DO NO HARM." It has nothing to do with evil. They might as well forbid eastern medical practices as it parallels witchcraft. There is an immense difference between witchcraft and satanic worship. The two are not the same.

First it starts with book banning, then book burning, then people banishing, then people burning...etc. History repeats itself in this arena, even today.

Parents and families have the ultimate athority as to what their children should be exposed to. I would suggest that a parent should be informed about the subject matter and not differ to someone else to decide what is appropriate or not. Some parents do follow the Church recommendations with a blind eye to reality. Let's not try to require that every Church member do so or you'll have folks dancing to the Inquisition Jig.

HP7 already a best seller? Now, that's an inflated market!

Like many albums, "best seller" or platinum status is based on advanced orders from retailers - such was the case for many Beatle Albums, Jimi Hendrix, the first ASIA album and many of the HP books. I think I read something about how "The Order of the Phoenix" was the most sold book ever in history ----- perhaps why some religious leaders are quick to critisize it without ever reading it: fear is a powerful monster.

Sue: sorry I missed your question there at the tail end. It does seem like a punishment when you are into a book that you just hate. I keep on reading hoping it will get better or to see what happens. I find I skim over pages trying just to keep gist (sp) of the story until it ends...... it is a slow suffering. I have been able to finish most and have only walked away from a handful over the last 20 or so years.....walking away from the book makes me feel like I wasted my time up to that point, a feeling I don't like, so I do my best to just plow thru it. How about you?

Sue: I wouldn't keep on reading a book I think is boring,unless I think it has something vital for me to learn. My feeling is that there are way too many good books out there and life is too short to try to keep pushing through a book that isn't doing much for me either intelectually or atleast pleasure wise.

Sue, John and Kassem, I think we are in agreement: don't ban books.

However Kassem, don't you think that you are getting a little paranoid, taking a huge leap from guidelines to the inquisition? Especially in this day and age of tolerance, some group somewhere, I don't even know who they are give us guidelines for watching movies, saying some are PG, some are R, etc. Psycologists, Counsolers and everyone else gives their opinions of what is good and bad, why shouldn't the church be able to provide guidelines for their members on what they believe to be good or bad books, movies, etc?

Don't fall into a reverse inquisition where you tolerate everybody except the church. The church has the right to provide guidelines and people have the right to accept or reject those guidelines.

John you say "If Church members need to first hear from the Church in order to make a decision on whether they should read a book or not, then Marx was right when he said that "religion is the opiate of the masses."

I don't agree with that at all. Christians (Evangelical and Catholic) are well over 1 billion people in the world coming from all walks of life. Not all of them are as educated as you are, nor have they ever learned analytical skills to help them determine good from evil or truth from lie.

I haven't read Harry Potter, so I won't comment on it, but let me give you another example. I did read the Da Vinci Code. For many that book was just pure entertainment and that's fine. But the author wasn't writting just to entertain. His agenda was to undermine the church, saying that the church intentionally deceived their followers about Christ in order to gain power and in order to discriminate against women. the book has some partial truths and tons of outright false information. But for someone who maybe barely finished elementary school (like many whom I work with in Mexico)who doesn't know how to study and analize all of that, the false information in that book could destroy their faith in God.

So the church not only has the right, but actualy the responsibility to provide guidelines to educate their members and to help them to learn to analyze so that they can learn to discern truth from lies and good from evil. That's not opium for the masses, that's teaching your members to learn to think.

I do agree that no parent or person for that matter should defer to a church leader with a blind eye. Even the Bible teaches that. I won't bore you with Bible verses, but Paul, one of the most important leaders in the Bible commeneded the people who didn't just accept whatever he said, but studied to see if what he said is true.

Edited by author 01-14-2007 04:08 PM
Sue: I also missed your question. I've suffered through many books that I found boring and a difficult read(Ulysses comes to mind). I've stopped reading them too if I picked them up for entertainment. In other words, if I am reading for entertainment, and I'm not being entertained, then I stop and find something else (Ulysses was for homework, not entertainment, so I had to suffer through it -- heehee).

Edited by author 01-14-2007 04:10 PM
Mike: There is a difference between teaching and telling someone how to think.

You mention how some of those less educated, as those you work with, would have their faith in God destroyed by reading some books like the The Da Vinci Code, and that the church needs to interceed, do you really think they (those you mention who are less educated) would be reading such a book? And if so, then that they would not be able to distinguish fiction from non-fiction? Their faith, and the Church's belief system, must be shaky to begin with if they can read such a detailed story and be swayed so quickly. If that is the case, then indeed the Church has a strong case for book, television, radio, and any other media banning other than Church sanctioned information.

You see, those who have the ability to pick up a book such as The Da Vinci Code and read through it aren't the poorly educated. I believe the Church should dismiss fiction as such and not worry about fiction turning people away from the Church. Similar to how the Catholic church treated the release of the movie "The Exorcist." In that case, they welcomed it as an opportunity to introduce some of their secular belief system to a large audience. Even if the plausibility of such an event (the possibility of a Jewish girl being possessed by the devil is a possible of Jewish folks knocking on doors trying to convince you to join their religion) occurance is ridiculous.

Thanks Kassem and John for answering my question!

I'm happy to report that I have finished that dumb book. Avoid at all costs - "PS I love You" by Cecilia Ahern (daughter of the Irish Prime Minister). It's being made into a movie, which may be okay if they can improve the dialog... But don't bother with the book.

MacIntosh - you are welcome. Hope the next book you pick is a lot better -- don't you just hate it when a very good book ends? I go through a withdrawal you can't imagine.

Mike - well, I don't know if I am being paranoid - one just needs to look at the world today without going back to my exaggerated comment on the Inquisition.

If you are saying that a church should recommend/suggest/guide its people do you mean just in our ethnocentric geopolitical area? I mean, does this just apply to Christians in the USA?? Because if you make it an accepted universal practice, then, although at different levels of intensity, we must approve the Taliban, the jihadists, Hezbollah, and the extreme right winged Jewish sector, the extremism in Ireland. Now, don't call me paranoid please, but this is the situation of the world today, not 500 years ago. If it is ok for our "religious" leaders to dominate our society, then organizations mentioned above must also be sanctioned. See, in my mind, it becomes a "universal principal" and we cannot limit it to just our society.

Perhaps it is because I was raided in Mexico that I have "Juarista" tendencies of seperation of Church and State -- but that is the way I think it works best for societies. I must say that in the USA we have exaggerated that separation by banning the statue of the 10 commandments in a courtroom, the mention of the word "God" in the pledge of alligience, and the sight of a cross in a memorial of the Korean War here in San Diego, etc. That is just ridiculous...

But I feel that the Church - any church -- should keep to teaching their faith, the Bible, Quoran, Book of Mormon, etc. and not get involved in anything else.

I mean, we have a group of people who have kept the theory of evolution out of our kids education -- we have classics in literature banned form High School libraries -- I mean, these people are nuts.

I agree with Bauer that educated people should be able to discern fiction from non-fiction in books. It is the ignorant or the faithful who seem to always turn to their religious leaders for advice. The Pope had no right to pontificate on Harry Potter - and I assure he did not read them.

By the way - the notion that Christ married and had a child would NOT destroy my faith in Him nor in my spirituality -- it might even increase it. I mean, what is the big deal?? But that's not the point of this discussion.

The church should keep to their teachings and not try to dominate or influence our socio-political structures outside of their confines. People should go to church, learn and try to apply those principles to their daily lives.... that is a long way from the church directly coming out and "legislating".

Certainly you can make the argument that the use of Taliban, etc. is tooo far of an extreme - and certainly it is not what you meant -- but my question would be, where do you draw the line?? How much should a "church" be allowed to govern our daily lives? what is acceptable before it becomes extremism? Certainly many moslems don't feel they are being extremists, nor many of the protestants in No. Ireland.

The mennonites and other german/dutch religious groups in Pennsylvania and outlying areas don't think they are extremists -- so where as a society do we say what the level of influence should be? Or are we doomed, as a human race, to use God as a justification for our own paranoias and aggressions upon our brothers and sisters in this world?

This all goes back to Bauer's comment regarding "educated people" - our society (USA?western society) cannot be swayed as easily as the people who have lsot hope in the middle east. But where do we find the balance to keep spirituality and a belief in God and his many blessings with our progressive educated minds?? I don't have an answer for that, but I believe we must have both.... but I do feel that a religious group spends too much time banning Harry Potter. If you disagree, perhaps you should recall the not too long incident of a book named "The Satanic Verses" -- not that you would suggest that, but see where it can lead to? Imagine if the Church in Rome went after Dan Brown for his book??

All this reminds me of a title of a movie I saw when I was very young -- "It's a mad, mad world"

Edited by author 01-16-2007 02:18 PM
So, a change of topic...just finishing hearing (not reading) The Book of Guys by Garrison Keillor. I did pick up the book to read once in a bookstore but never ended up buying it. However, I thoroughly enjoy hearing Garrison on the radio and my wife picked up this gem for me at a thrift store. It is halarious and enjoyable to listen too, and very much written for "guys," though my wife has enjoyed listening to it too. So, if you have the opportunity to check out the book on tape/cd from the library, I highly recommend it.

Edited by author 01-15-2007 06:00 PM
Thanks, Kassem. I haven't decided on the next book yet, but yes, I agree, I hate it when a good book ends. It's nice to get lost in that world for a while, and sad to leave it. What will we all do when there's no more Hogwarts?! I'm so bummed to think there's only one more book, and not a little anxious that she will end it to my/our satisfaction.

Interesting comments about the separation of church and state. Since I grew up in England, where there was no division either, perhaps my experience is similar to yours. Although, I'm not really sure what "Juarista" tendencies are. Anyway, in England, in school, we prayed, we had Christmas programs, the whole shebang, and that was in a normal public school, not a private parochial school. We were a pretty homogenous bunch, though, I have to say - mostly protestants (Church of England) and a few catholics. Few, if any, felt excluded. There was one Jewish girl that I remember, and a Jehovah's Witness who had to wait outside in the hallway until all the hymns and prayers were finished until she could join us for general announcements. I remember feeling bad for her... that she was such an oddity because her religion prevented her from blending in, which is really all you want when you're 12. As for the USA, we're not so homogenous anymore. So perhaps the separation of church and state in schools is more necessary to avoid any feelings of exclusion. In the grand scheme of things, I think the separation of church and state is a good thing, but I do agree that things go a little far here. It seems as though we've all become so overly sensitive and politically correct.

I picked up a blank book yesterday called Book Lust by Nancy Pearl, which you can use to keep a record of the books you read. Seemed like a good idea. There was something interesting about whether or not to keep reading a book you're not enjoying. This woman had fairly strong feelings that you should not keep reading a book you're not enjoying, no matter what. She mentioned the Rule of 50 which is as follows:

If you still don't like a book after slogging through the first 50 pages, set it aside. If you're more than 50 years old, subtract your age from 100 and only grant it that many pages.

What do you think? Is this a policy you could implement in your own reading life?

I got interested when I quickly read the words Book and Lust ..... shows you where and how easily my mind goes down certain path.... must be a question of my age.

Theory sounds ok -- however, if you are into half the book and you hate it, say you are into 265 pages -- doesn't it seem like a waste to put it down? I would agree then to the 50 page rule -- I must say though, I began Jenning's book AZTEC about 6 or 7 times and never got past 1st chapter -- 30 pages maybe. But after that initial chapter I was unable to put it down.

John: I like hearing Keillor on PBS -- and his stories are very good. Have you seen the current movie on dvd about him? Is it any good?

I love the Klick and Klack brothers on PBS radio -- do you listen to their show?

Sue: I like the 50 page rule. Most of the time, I wouldn't get that far though <g>.

Kassem: I did see the movie. It is a bit surreal, just like the radio show, and has an intersting sub-plot. It is a good movie to talk about afterwards, but I wouldn't buy it myself. The acting, I believe, is a bit substandard, even with all the headliners playing in it.

Klick and Klack are great, and they do have a pretty humerous web site. You can send "dope slaps" from it as easily as any other e-card, which is pretty fun. Their trivia and puzzles can also be found on their site (http://www.cartalk.com).

I'm back to Stephen King's epic The Dark Tower and up to volume III, The Wastelands, killing time until next July (HP7). I'm one of those SK fanatics that reads almost everything he puts out...and no longer can tell whether what he writes is any good or not. I just enjoy his style of story telling.

Kassem? Your age? More likely your sex, I'd guess. Not to be too presumptious, but surely the idea that your mind goes down that certain path is not a new phenomenon?!!!

I admit, I would have a hard time putting a book down if I'd already read half of it, and probably not willing to give up after 50 pages. I read Aztec so long ago, I can't remember finding it difficult to get into. Maybe it's worth trying that one again.

John, I'm a Stephen King fan as well. My all time favorite is The Shining. I'm not a fan of horror novels in general, but I like his writing and his character development. I think that's one of the reasons his books rarely translate well into movies, because so much of what is good about them is in some character's head. Books that I thought did well as movies are Stand By Me, Misery, and The Green Mile. The Shining may have been a decent Kubrick movie, but it missed the point of the book entirely.

I have enjoyed the movies, more so because I enjoy zoning out and usually I'll watch a movie more if I know what the subject matter is about, even though it deviates from the book. I think The Stand done as a mini-series was fairly well done and they did take more time with it than the usual King adaptations. Same goes with the remake of The Shining. Of course, I may have enjoyed it better because the location (The Stanley Hotel in Estes Park, CO) was filmed in the actual hotel that inspired the book.

Well, I see in the Mexican "Reforma" news website that the new HP will be published on July 12th -- but I see no mention in USA news media -- has anyone else seen anything about this???

Yes! It's the lead story on Yahoo.com and they also announced it on the Today show this morning! Can't wait!

The fifth film, "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," is scheduled to come out July 13, just eight days before the final book's release.

Off of AOL. Can't wait!

Wohoo!

I did hear the AP report on it...and JK is still hinting that HP may not survive (which would make it a very disturbing end for his adoring fans <sigh>). She already spoiled that definitely two characters will die in the book (Voldermort undoubtedly being one). They are saying it is July 21st though, not the 12th. Hmmm...which one will it be...

She better not kill Harry. Piss me off. I'm already mad that she killed off Sirius and Dumbledore. Although I think the door is open for one or both to return. What do you think? She can kill off Snape, but not before we figure out why Dumbledore trusted him. I think Snape killing Dumbledore is a red herring. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

Any thoughts on Daniel Radcliffe appearing nude in Equus? Anyone remember that it was performed at school?

hi guys. Well, I have already placed my order with Amazon for my HP book. It's much cheaper if you pre-order. Plus, it gives me a feeling like the book is almost in my hands. Can't wait!

I'm kinda shocked at Daniel's photos. He's only 17 and there's one shot that leaves very, very little to the imagination. If someone took a photo like that one of an underage here in the US, people would be up in arms. I just think he's too young for that sort of thing.

I want Dumbledore to return in the last book! Killing him was awful. Harry better not die!!!

I formed a line at Barnes and Noble and bought my last copy after midninght -- that was fun. Had the kids with me.

We talk about the end of HP series and what will this last volume bring; but what about JK? Will she retire? Do you think she has it in her to create a new charcter and a new world for a new book? Should she? Could she?

Certainly she will get $$$$ offers but could it be as good as HP or would it be a sell out?

If she does write another book, it will be in a few years. I bet she'll be emotionally and physically pooped after this last book. She'll also have 10 million interviews to give around the globe, so I don't expect anything from her for quite some time.

Laurie: Nice to hear from you!

RE: Killing Harry -- I still think there is a connection after Voldermort used some of Harry's blood to return (see HP4). So, I think still think if you kill Voldermort, you end up killing Harry too. But I will enjoy it more if he survives (and so would my daughter). If he does, then there's at least hope for the story to continue.

I'm sure JKR would also like to move on to other stories as well. I don't think she only has one in her, though this series is a tough one to beat. Folks are trying but they haven't caught on quite as well.

Snape to me is still a mystery. She keeps setting it up for him to be the fall guy, but he still manages to come across as an intricate part of the story in support of Harry's survival. For example, he really could have damaged Harry when he escaped with Malfoy at the end of the last book, but instead just kept Harry at bay (yeah, we all hated what he did to Dumbledore, but even Dumbledore expected it...so...).

Ah, we'll be speculating on this for the next seven months <g>.

I have this notion that writers of fiction have stories in their heads that they need to tell. This is a sure sign to me that I am not a frustrated novelist! As for JK, perhaps she does have other stories to tell, but I wouldn't blame her if she kept them to herself. She'd probably never achieve the same financial or critical success with another series, but that probably doesn't really matter. I guess the risk would be that no matter what she did, it would be compared to the HP series, and it would never come close, on any level. It might be interesting to see what she could do with a book for adults, but then again, maybe the charm is that her books are for kids, but still appeal to adults on so many levels.

Sue, I agree. I have enjoyed her style of writing, if only because she has made the characters so likeable and their personalities are consistent and very distinguishable. And every other book she writes will be compared to the HP series. You know, I've forgotten that these books were written for kids. Look how much we're engaged in them, whether we have kids or not!

hi John - nice to hear from you too.

I'm also confused by Snape. I have a feeling I'm going to gasp a whole lot as I read this last book. She's going to pull a huge surprise with Snape. He's been full of twists and turns the entire time, and this last book won't be any different.

I also think there will be a big link between Neville Longbottom and Harry, and I've predicted for a while that Neville will die in this last book. His life is so similar to Harry's life and he's really matured and become brave as he's gotten older. I can see him in some big battle at the end. But then again, what do I know . . .

I think Dumbledore is coming back - Phoenix rising from the ashes sound familiar?
Hadn't thought about Neville but there are quite a few "main" characters who could be killed off. We know one must either be Voldemort or Harry since that's the prophecy.

Edited by author 02-07-2007 12:21 PM
Stephanie, I agree that Dumbledore will return. He's necessary for the last big fight.

Carmen posted this to the 80 QT:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/02/0...wling.ap/index.html

Whaaaaa....! I'm already depressed...

Do not despair -- wouldn't be surprised if we see a cartoon series or the like of HP -- the BIG corporate will see a way to milk as much as they can from our beloved HP ----- and then the memorabilia. The HP Hallmark Xmas Ornament will surely become a series..... HP will stay as long as we want him to in one way or another ---

I have always enjoyed re-reading books - seem to always find something new..but maybe that is just old age setting in

Hijole!!! I haven't been here in a while!!! I don't have it bookmarked at school. Gotta fix that!

So, I have already reread all the HP in Spanish. I, too, have preordered HP7. Man, I'm going to be in Panama when it arrives!!! At least there will be something cool waiting at the post office!

Speaking of rereading, just when I think I know P&P, I find something new.

Anyway, I think there are big things coming for Neville. He is a Griffindor after all and has come a long way. And like you all, just can't decide what the deal is with Snape. I guess that's why there will be 7 books, not 6!

Meanwhile, reading a book a student lent me ... Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell about his experiences in the Spanish Civil War. Interesting so far, about half way through.

Finally read Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain. Terrific! What a story teller! Already lent it out, but it was so amusing, I'm rereading when I get it back.

So it seems for HP7 that indeed Dumbledore does play a part...but does he remain dead and do his part in the past or present through some other means (ghost perhaps)?

In a recent Daniel Radcliffe interview, he spilled the beans that during the filming of OOTP (HP5) JK Rowling visited the set and he had a quick chat with her.

'Jo came down to the set at one point and I said, "Oh hello, why are you here today?" And she said, "Oh I just needed a break from the book - Dumbledore's giving me a lot of trouble." And I said, "But isn't he dead?" And she said, "Well, yeah, but it's more complex ..." I was like, [briskly] "OK, I'm not gonna ask anything else!"'

This is the link to the whole interview if anyone's interested: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,,2008889,00.html

I don't want to be spoiled before the book comes out, but this does reveal that indeed Dumbledore still plays a part in the end.

Good article, John. Well worth reading.

Thanks, John.

I had a thought the other night and I just remembered it. I think Dumbledore will help Harry through the pencive - is that what it was called? - that liquidy cauldron that holds Dumbledore's memories. You'll recall Harry has gone inside it before to learn things about past events. Maybe Harry will get info and help from Dumbledore's memories. That way we'll still have Dumbledore with us, but he won't be alive.

Sound possible?

It worked for Yoda, Obi Wan and other Jedi Knights.

Laurie: That does sound plausible. I still think that in order to finally kill Volermordt for good, Harry will also have to go. Snape will also probably be another one to die, probably defending Harry in the end.

John, that would be a good end for Snape. He's been so hard to figure out, but it would be nice to see him at peace with Harry and Harry's Dad. Remember how Snape was teased and harassed by Harry's Dad when they were in school?

Laurie: I don't think Snape would ever be able to make peace with Harry or Harry's dad. Most of Snape's antagonism was self imposed. Yes, Sirius and Lupin made fun of him, but Snape clung on to that hatred, even when he was supposed to be helping. I think all of Snape's cruelty towards Harry was due to his own self loathing. In the end, I think, Snape will just do the right thing, but will go down feeling and acting the same way as always.

hmm, interesting. I really don't know what Snape will do - he's been an interesting character all along. All I know is that he needs a good hair wash and cut (at least in the movies) :)

Homage to Catalonia was pretty good, and a short read. Really makes clear what a mess the Spanish Civil War was. Orwell came away pretty disappointed, and he was a socialist! Turns out (as we have read elsewhere, but this first person thing makes very clear) it wasn't simply the Republicans v Franco/fascists. The people fighting Franco were a motley bunch of lefties fighing among themselves (commies, socialists, anarchists...you name it!). You can imagine the disappointment of the idealists from other countries who went to fight fascism and found that wasn't the only fight going on. I found the appendices very informative as well. I guess I can finally return that book.

Meanwhile, the student who lent me that book is going through my James Bond series and enjoying them tremendously, even though, let's face it, they are seriously dated. Well, maybe that's half the fun. The guys got interested in the books after we got into a huge discussion following the release of the new Casino Royale movie. Everyone was saying that the new guy just wasn't Bond and I told them he is PERFECT if you've ever read the books. He IS perfect...looks and attitude...all there.

I finally finish Cell by Stephen King. He really has a thing against cellphones. It is your typical King novel though I didn't like how it ended. Almost as if he just ran of out time and didn't know how to end it. Anyway, for those of you who enjoy his work, you won't be too dissapointed.

Carmen: I have yet to see Casino Royale. I'm hoping to get the DVD to add to my current Bond DVD collection for my b-day. Do you have that collection to or do you have the Fleming book collection? I have all of the Bond movies and still enjoy them (I laugh during the first few because of the effects, the language, and dialouge.

I have yet to get into non-fiction. It is tough to suspend disbelief with that genre and my world is too filled with reality (heehee). I'm still struggling with finishing King's Dark Tower epic and I have a couple of books to go. After that, however, I just might pick up some non-fiction to get me charged for the 2008 election season.

And for the fun of it:

Top 11 Ways Harry Potter Dies in the Deathly Hallows

11. Gets very drunk on butterbeer and has one-night stand with Dementor. Finds out its "Hump of Despair" is way worse than its "Kiss of Death."

10. Scar actually a time bomb set by Voldemort, making Harry's head explode in a bloody mist.

9. Luna Lovegood provides Harry with some bad acid. While tripping, Harry thinks he can fly without his broom and dies jumping from window in astronomy tower.

8. Heart attack from high cholesterol brought on by a lifetime of eating sausages.

7. Murdered by Ron after Hermione gets caught holding Harry's wand.

6. Smothered by Veela breasts.

5. Disgruntled Snitch frees a bunch of Bludgers and sends them after Harry.

4. Decapitated by Hogwart's Express in game of "chicken" with Draco Malfoy.

3. Trampled by a mob of liberated house elves.

2. Becomes Animagus. Turns into mouse. Gets eaten by Hedwig.

1. Harry becomes paralyzed when thrown from back of Centaur. Inspires wizarding community with inspirational struggle towards recovery, but dies from bedsore infection.

Source: http://digg.com/movies/Top_11_Ways_Harry_P...the_Deathly_Hallows

I'm reading HP and the Order of the Phoenix right now in preparation for the movie and my re-read of The Half-Blood Prince before the Deathly Hallows in July...

I have both the US and the UK editions, and am reading the UK version. I like to look for phrases that I think will need to be translated into US English, and today, I found one...

George and Fred are warning Ron and Harry about how harrowing the year ahead will be with preparing for their OWLs. One of them says, "we were able to keep our pecker up." I thought, no way, that did *not* make it to the US edition!!!! In the US version, it says, "we were able to keep our spirits up" which is a perfect translation! So even though it sounds rude, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

Dang! I didn't know they actually translated the books. I thought the UK edition was just a different packaging.

I'm finishing reading the Order outloud to my daughter and wife in prep for the movie. I've done it so far with the previous books and it is getting more and more difficult to come up with different voices for each of the new characters that pop up. I've also noticed I get really hungry when I read these out loud. I keep imagining all the different meals and the tastes that abound...

Edited by author 05-16-2007 04:25 PM
Okay, as we're getting closer, here is an alternate to how things end for Harry: Harry Potter and the Mid-Life Crisis.

Hell, yeah, they HAVE to translate. Brits talk weird. ;)
I think I'll be in Panama when the movie comes out. I have no idea what that might be like. Naturally, I will report. Not like I'm missing out on that one! As far as re-reading before movie and HP7, naturally!

John, I have all the Sean Connery 007s - on tape!! I'm startign to get the DVDs. I have a couple of the Brosnan ones and the new one...really good. Gets back to the spirit of the originals. And I have all the Ian Fleming books. They're actually my dad's collection from when they all came out in paperback the first time. I've got them all except From Russia With Love which one of our Irish Setters ATE years ago. !!!!!

Not reading any books right now ... just trying to keep up with my Atlantic and Economist subscriptions. The Economist comes once a week!! There's a ton of stuff in there. My favorite part is, ironically, the book reviews. I get the feeling that's as close as I'm going to get to a book until summer vacation!

I went in to HP in Spanish, but was unable to find any reference to anyone keeping a "pito arriba" - so it's a brit thing I am sure -- well, hope brits aren't the only ones who can keep their peckers up during hard times.

You are too funny, Kassem!!! There must be sayings in Spanish that if literally translated to English would raise an eyebrow or two. Can you think of any?

It would take me a while to come up with (no pun intended) something to equal "keeping one's pecker up" but I will think of something.

Carmen: I finally got to see Casino Royale. I got the DVD as a B-Day present yesterday (completing my collection) and couldn't wait to view it. OMG! I would have to say, hands down, best Bond movie so far. I now have to go read the book to see how Ian Fleming's version of the 1950's compares. If they begin making the movies in line with the books, I think they'll appeal to a whole new audience. I think a remake of "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" though the timeline of the book releases don't follow those of the movies.

I wonder if they'll parlay "Quantum of Solace, "Risico," and "The Hildebrand Rarity" into their own Bond movies before they start recycling the old ones. If anything, they have about 9 more years before running out of titles (giving 3 years between movies).

One moment, I just found out that John Gardner and Raymond Benson also wrote Bond books, some of which are already movies. Guess there is an endless supply out there...

John: I, too, have the Bond collection and as much as I liked the new film I wasn't too sold on the "Bond" -- and as much as I liked the action and the more realistic tone of the movie I think it missed some of the classic bits that make a "Bond" movie: Money Penny, for one. Although a reference with both of those words was made, I missed the character, as well as Q. And where were all the double entendres and smart ass remarks?? But it is a good movie.

I like the Spanish translations of HP. The French ones change everyone's name except the main kids'. The school, the houses, everything. It's above my lexile level to start with and then they have to change stuff!!! Frustration! But I speak much better after reading.

In Casino Royale, the book, he falls in love with Vesper who turns out to be a double agent. She can't stand it so she kills herself, but not in lame "accidental" manner like in the movie. He doesn't love again until On Her Majesty's Secret Service in which he actually marries the girl who does end up dead as in the movie. Then the books get kinda dark, starting with You Only Live Twice. I have not investigated it, but I suspect something ugly happened in Fleming's own life cuz the tone/color/feeling of all the rest of the books is different after OHMSS.

Kassem, I agree with you completely about missing Moneypenny and Q. I had heard that Casino Royale was more faithful to the book, and usually I prefer that, but in this case I missed those two old familiars. I mean, come on, if they're going to make M be a woman, can't they throw us a bone? (and that is no reference to earlier topics, I promise!) I missed the humor too.

Carmen, what are the names of things in the French HP? I would like to know what they call the school, the houses, everything... will you tell?

I have to look them up. I have a book here at school and I will post tomorrow. The HS has field day so I get to be in my room alone all day...thanks be to god.

Well, I made the list of names and left it at school. Soooo....next week.

Just saw the trailer for OTP. It's going to be AWESOME!!!!

PS now I can't find the list of French names I made. !!!

OK. I'll be in Panama when my HP7 arrives here in Brussels (if Amazon is to be depended on). I won't be reading it until the middle of August so please WAIT FOR ME!!!!!

Here's some info from Wikipedia on the translations of Harry Potter. See this link for the full text:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_in_translation

Sorry this is long... the last part is the most interesting...

-----------------
The Harry Potter series of fantasy novels by J. K. Rowling books have become some of the most widely read works of children's literature in history, with readers of all ages and in many countries - worldwide sales of Harry Potter books are estimated at over 300 million copies.[1] As such, some or all of the books have been translated from the original English into several other languages.

<snip>

Demand

The high profile and huge public demand for a decent local translation means that a great deal of care is often taken in the task. In some countries such as Italy, the first book was revised by the publishers and issued in an updated edition, in response to feedback from readers. In countries such as China and Portugal, the translation is conducted by a group of translators working together so as to save time. Some of the translators hired to work on the books were quite well known prior to their work on Harry Potter, such as Viktor Golyshev, who oversaw the Russian translation of the series' fifth book. Golyshev was previously best known for translating William Faulkner and George Orwell [3]; his tendency to snub the Harry Potter books in interviews and refer to them as inferior literature may be the reason he did not return to work on later books in the series. The Turkish translation of books two to five was undertaken by Sevin Okyay, a popular literary critic and cultural commentator.[4] For reasons of secrecy, translation can only start when the books are released in English; thus there is a lag of several months before the translations are available. This has lead to more and more copies of the English editions being sold to impatient fans in non-English speaking countries. Such was the clamour to read the fifth book that its English language edition became the first English-language book ever to top the bookseller list in France.[5]

[edit] Issues in translation

As with many texts, the Harry Potter series presents some special challenges to translators:

[edit] Culture

The cultural environment of the book is decidedly British. The stories follow a familiar theme in British children's books, that of adventures at boarding school, and many of the cultural nuances will be unfamiliar to readers in translation. Such things require careful and creative translating.

[edit] Language

The language of the books, reflected, for example, in Hagrid's manner of speaking, reveals much about the various characters. Various expressions and forms of speech are regional. Scholastic executives chose to issue the books with some adaptations to American English,[6] a practice which is quite common with books that "cross the pond" in either direction, but was met with some criticism in the case of Harry Potter.[7]

[edit] Invented words and proper nouns

Several words and phrases in the books such as spells, incantations, magical words, items and place names were invented by Rowling. Many of the spells are drawn from or inspired by Latin, and have a certain resonance with English speakers. For example, priori incantatem (a spell which causes the last spells performed by a wand to be reproduced in reverse order) would be familiar to many English-speaking readers as the words prior ("previous") and incant ("recite, utter"). To create a similar effect in the Hindi version, the Sanskrit language, typical in mantras, has been used for the spells. Some translators have created new words themselves, others have resorted to transliteration.

Names such as Knockturn Alley and the Pensieve are extremely difficult to translate. The latter is a magical bowl into which memories and thoughts can be placed and examined at leisure, and is a portmanteau of two words: pensive, meaning "musingly or dreamily thoughtful", and sieve, a type of bowl with perforations through which fine particles of a substance (such as flour) may be passed to separate them from coarser ones. The name Knockturn Alley, an unsavoury area leading off Diagon Alley (the place where London's magic market is located), suggests something beaten up or twisted, and is also semi-homophonous with "nocturnally", suggesting darkness and, by extension, evil. Translators must use creativity and sensitivity in rendering such names, and some are more successful than others. If the words are simply transliterated, the shades of meaning are lost; but when new word-games are invented, they can end up sounding quite different from the original, and often reflect the translator's personal interpretation and preferences. For instance, the Turkish version of Pensieve is Düsünseli, which is a portmanteau of the words Düsünmek (to think, to imagine) and sel (a flood of water).

Anagrams such as that of Tom Riddle's name that appears in the second book also do not make the transition easily into other languages. Translators have sometimes altered the names in the book in order to make the anagram work in that language; for instance, Riddle's middle name of Marvolo was changed to "Vandrolo" in the Hebrew edition, to Marvoldo in Turkish edition, to Orvoloson in Italian, in French, Riddle's full name becomes "Tom Elvis Jedusor," an anagram of "Je suis Voldemort", and similarly in Spanish, where his name became "Tom Sorvolo Ryddle", in order to form the phrase "Yo soy Lord Voldemort." However, if the Game Boy Advance version of the second book is played in Spanish, his name is "Tom Marvolo Ryddle". This is presumably a mistake. In Dutch his name is "Marten Asmodom Vilijn", an anagram of "Mijn naam is Voldemort" (My name is Voldemort). In Icelandic his name becomes Trevor Delgome. In the Swedish translation, however, the name was altered to Tom Gus Mervolo Dolder, an anagram of Ego sum Lord Voldemort, where "ego sum" is Latin, not Swedish, for "I am". In Finnish his name is Tom Lomen Valedro (Ma olen Voldemort).

Interestingly enough, when the books were translated into Italian, there were problemsw with Dumbledore's name. Rowling herself stated that she picked Dumbeldore's name from the latin word for bee. However, when it was translated, the Italian translator heard "Dumb" and assumed it referred to "mute", therefore giving his name the opposite of the indended menaing! Certain shared names present additional problems; for example, Tom Riddle should share his first name with Tom the bartender, but this is not the case in all translations.

[edit] Plot points

In some cases, English-speaking fans have sought clues to the story's mysteries by examining the way certain parts of the books have been translated in foreign editions. The most famous case of this is the identity of the mysterious R.A.B., a character mentioned in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince who is thought by many to be Regulus Black, the brother of Sirius Black. The Dutch edition of the book translates R.A.B. as 'R.A.Z'. As 'Zwart' is Dutch for 'black' (Sirius Black is called Sirius Zwarts in the Netherlands); likewise, in the Norwegian edition, R.A.B. translates to 'R.A.S.' (svart is Norwegian for black). Additionally, in the Finnish edition the initials are R.A.M. ('musta' is Finnish for black). This has been taken by some as proof of the Regulus Black theory. However, it has never been noted by Rowling that any additional information is given to translators, so whether or not these presumptions are accurate is still unknown. It is also interesting to note that in the Hebrew version the note had the same initials as the English version (transliterated into the Hebrew letter equivalent). However, throughout the series, the name 'Black' is not translated into the Hebrew equivalent, thus leaving it the same name as in the English versions.

Similarly, the title for Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix did not make it obvious whether Order referred to a group of people or to a directive. The information that it was a group of people was then determined by viewing the title in other languages. The same goes for "the Carrows", who in some translations was translated as "the siblings Carrows" and hence weren't a married couple, later Rowling revealed that it was the siblings Alecto and Amycus that were the Carrows.

Just finished the seventh and final installment of Stephen King's The Dark Tower. Just in time to start another seventh book in a series.

What was funny is that Stephen King must be quite the Potter fan as he included several elements about it throughout the epic, but only the last couple of books. He also included Star Wars and Star Trek stuff which was pretty funny to read.

Something else that came up HP like tonight. Was watching the new Dr. Who on the SciFi channel (my 7 year-old likes it) and Dr. Who is played by the actor that also played Barty Crouch Jr. in the HP4 movie. Anyway, several references to HP in tonight's episode (had to do with Shakespeare) and the Dr. Who character mentioned how he "cried at the end of book seven." Also, they used a few Rowling spells.

Anyway, the HP fever is out there. Anyone going to a mid-night book release party? We are going to one of our local bookstores. They plan on having a few raptors there (from a local rescue service) and possibly a person who will be giving children divination classes. Me, I'll be drinking lots of coffee!

Edited by author 07-14-2007 05:35 PM
It's gotta be Regulus. He turned from the dark side (as it were) and would totally leave a "HA HA Gotcha!" note in the fake horcrux.

Just went to Sparknotes to check on House of 7 Gables...watching an old Vincent Price movie with Mom and we're scratching our heads wondering why we couldn't remember what was going on. Well, not exactly a production true to the author's vision, much less actual work!!! ANYway, guess what else is in the Hs?? Harry Potter. !!!

Edited by author 07-16-2007 07:50 PM
5 days and counting.... I ordered my HP 7 from Amazon and it will arrive on Saturday. I'm so torn by wanting to tear through it and wanting to savor it...

Here's a link to an interesting article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19718441/

Who do you think will bite it? I think Snape is history. But I think he's good, and killing Dumbledore was a big red herring. Maybe that's just wishful thinking. And Sirius, dead or alive? When Bellatrix zapped him with the killing curse, he fell into the veil... maybe that saved his life in some weird way?

Saw the HP5 movie! It was good. Very good. But they left out so much! Guess that's inevitable. I liked it more than disliked it, but could provide a big long list of things they left out that I wish they had included. Anyone else see it yet?

I guess I posted in the wrong place! Going to see HP5 Wednesday. Mom's a fan too.

I always end up tearing through an HP book, then I read again...slowly. !!

Sue: I, too, saw HP recently and loved it!! Funny, but I thought of you so much during the film; the picture of you in England at 9 3/4 station, your level of enthusiasm when talking about HP, it was almost as if you were sitting right next to me!! weird, huh? I know few people who are into HP as much as you - I really enjoyed the film. Can't wait till the new book comes out!

Saw the movie this afternoon! There were about 12 of us in the entire theater, sadium seating and all. Guess going to the movies on a Monday right at lunchtime isn't for everyone <g>.

Anyway, liked the movie, but had a lot of holes in it. I can see where if someone had not read the book, it would have been difficult to follow at times. Very fast moving and difficult to often discern when Harry was dreaming and when Harry was seeing things as real. Having read the book, I could fill in the holes, dissapointed in some of the story lines (they didn't bring in Firenze and Umbridge wasn't nearly as despicable as in the book. Also, I didn't remember Bellatrix using the death curse as much as a blast that sent Sirius through the veil archway (in the movie it definitely made it much permanent).

Looking forward now for the special edition DVD of this film to get all of the extended and deleted scenes.

Now onto who bites it in HP7. Dumbledore must come back. After reading HP6 again, Rowling making it clear that the Phoenix rising to the air from the area of Dumbledore's funeral pyre was way too symbolic. Is Faux a horcrux for Dubmledore, and if so, who did Dumbledore kill?

So, how many of you are going to open the book and read the last chapter first????

John: It would be great to have a "Director's Cut" for each movie with 30minutes extra footage on each, but don't think they ever thought of that.

Monday at lunch sounds like a good time to go. Almost as good as 9:45 on a Friday morning...! But who would ever go then, can you imagine?! At one of our local theaters, they're showing it in IMAX, with the last 20 minutes in 3-D. Could be interesting, I suppose.

I would like a director's cut for all these movies... Do any of you own any of the earlier movies? I don't. Maybe after they've all come out, they'll create this monstrous box set with all the extras. That might be cool.

Kassem, thanks for thinking of me! It certainly would be a treat to sit next to a tried and true Potter fan and friend while watching the movie. And talking about it later is always fun too, of course.

Okay, here's a poll, as we wait impatiently for HP7.... Which book or books have been your favorite?

Here's my list....

HP 3
HP 6
HP 1
HP 5
HP 2 and HP 4 (tie)

I just loved Azkaban... so much revealed about Harry's parents, and the complete surprise that Sirius turned out to be a good guy. Loved the whole time turner bit, Buckbeak, the Dementors, the Animagus, the marauders map, the Patronus spell, and the fact that Harry's Patronus is in the shape of his father. Loved it, loved it, loved it!

I loved the Half-Blood prince because of so much time with Dumbledore, although of course, my heart just broke at the end. John, I hope you're right... Dumbledore has to rise from the ashes.

As for reading the last chapter first, what are you, nutty? Not on your life! I will savour each and every chapter, in order, allowing Ms. Rowling to reveal her secrets in the order of her choosing.

<<<<<Spoiler alert>>>>>

Don't want to wreck it for anyone who wants to see the movie and hasn't yet.... I was sort of surprised (although not terribly disappointed) that they completely left out Quidditch, especially the fact that Umbrage banned Harry for life, and that they left out the part about Ron and Hermione being Prefects. And, the biggest omission was leaving out the part about Neville being part of the prophecy! Despite what Kassem may think, I don't have this all committed to memory... I did go back and reread the end of HP5 after the movie!

Edited by author 07-17-2007 07:26 AM
They left Neville out of the prophecy? That's kinda strange. On the other hand, in HP6 Dumbledore does make it clear that it doesn't matter since Voldemort chose Harry not Neville. I still think big things are coming for Neville in HP7. He has grown with every episode.

NO quiddich? Do the producers know this is a movie about teenagers?

And no Firenze? First of all, how do leave out such a cool looking character? But more, just with him you could explaing the wizard/centaur relationship which will have something to do in HP7. You know it's all got to get pulled together. I guess I will see tomorrow, but how does this movie end for Umbrage? I sort of like that she got trampled and then freaked out.

I have all the movies, so far, and they really are very well made although sacrifices had to be made or every one would be longer than ... Lawrence of Arabia! Personally, the whole SPEW thing was no great loss unless the whole elf-wizard thing is big in the finale. BTW, is Kreacher in OTP?

Hmmm, my list would be:

HP4
HP1
HP2
HP3
HP5
HP6

I liked the action ones and HP4 was full of it. I spent a lot of time frustrated in HP5 and HP6, with the last several chapters of HP6 being hard to get through because of the emotional items (Dumbledore in the cave and then his death).

My wife wants to read the last chapters of the book first and I will be wrestling the book from her to keep her from doing so.

Carmen, Kreacher is in the movie, though as a very, very minor character. Almost wonder why he was there as they really didn't spend time on him. And as for SPEW, in the movie versions, you don't even get a hint that Hermione has any issue with the elves. I'm thinking the extended edition might be better.

They did release the extended edition of "Chamber of Secrets" and the TV Network Premier of the film (right before the release of HP3 in the movie theaters) had the extended scenes in it. Added well to many of the story lines and enhanced the plot.

Three more days and counting...

Just got back from HP5. WHEEEE! It was pretty satisfying, but like y'all said, full of holes. I'm glad I read the book. I would like to have seen the full Fred and George show, but the fireworks were good. All the effects were good. Liked the doorway with the veil, but object to having Bellatrix use the aveda kadavera curse when she didn't in the book. That may mean something later. I really liked that Malfoy, Sr., drops the prophesy. You just know he's going to get it from the boss, even if that's not quite how it was written. Seeing Dumbledore's escape act when they try to kick him out gives me hope for HP7. A lot of loose ends in the movie that were quite neatly tied up in the book. Oh well. Still a good 2+ hours of entertainment.

Now, the countdown continues to HP7. I am so envious of you all!!! You'll have already read it twice by the time I even see mine!! WHINE!!!

And now, I have in my hands, HP7...off to read...chat back when I'm done.

Dammit!!!

I am so jealous! It will be hours before the mailman gets here with mine. Dammit!! is right!

Perhaps it goes without saying.... or maybe it doesnt... no spoilers without ample warning. Of course, we will all get to the point where we have read it... but for now, please be careful.

John, were you able to prevent your wife from reading the end?

I think perhaps the place beyond the veil will be featured... or at least explained. Perhaps Sirius"s real fate will be revealed...

Things I want to know, some very obvious and shared by you all, and in no order:

Snape - good or bad, and why Dumbledore trusted him.
Dumbledore - really dead or not?
Horcruxes - what or who? And is the scar on Harry a horcrux?
Sirius - really dead or not?
Harry - dead or alive?

She better not kill him. He had such a difficult life - with the dursley's for his early years, then finally a home and friends at Hogwarts, only to shoulder an enormous responsibility and end up dying to save the world? I want a happy ending for him! A quidditch player with not a care in the world...

Do you remember that scene from The Jerk where Steve Martin's character is yelling "The New Phone Books are Here! The New Phone Books are Here!"

That was the scene at my house just minutes ago when my copy of HP7 arrived!!! And wouldn't you know, I can't start reading it yet?! The agony.

It has a wonderful dedication.

Wow!!! I agree with your list of things we gotta know. Never thought about the scar that way. Hmm. And I agree...the good guys better win in the end!

Here's a blurb....

No other book, not even any of the six previous Potters, has been so desired, so quickly. "Deathly Hallows" averaged more than 300,000 copies in sales per hour — more than 5,000 a minute. The $34.99 book, even allowing for discounts, generated far more revenue than the opening weekend of the latest Potter movie, "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," which came out July 10.

Can you believe that, 5000 a minute?!! Unbelievable!

I'm on chapter 12, where are you?

Thought I'd drop in for a bit. Reading is going much slower than what we anticipated. I am reading the book outloud to my daughter and wife and having a hell of a time keeping all the voices correct! So many new characters, all of them at the same place.

Wife found the bootleg copy on the internet and read the epiloge before the book was released. Other than that, she's been keeping up with my reading and not reading ahead while I'm at work...at least, that's what she's telling me <g>.

Regarding the selling statistics, are they based on the number of pre-sales or new sales after the release? Pre-sales were pretty high, and they had to distribute those out first before they could sell new ones so, just curious.

Regarding your list, so far, I think number one has been answered by chapter 10, though there's still a doubt lingering in my mind. All the rest I'm still speculating on.

By the time you read this Sue, you'll have all the answers.

I finished POtter yesterday ;-)

Marivi - Any general comments you would like to give us about the book? Did you feel there is closure? Dang...at the pace I'm going, it'll be about four more weeks before I finish it.

I have two friends who have finished; one said she was disappointed, the other said it was fantastic and the best in the series. I discount entirely the opinion of the former, because she's a grump and is disappointed by most things in life in general (poor thing). The latter, who knows? Will it be the best? I'll wait and see. I'm still only on chapter 13 or so...

I caught a bit of an interview with JK Rowling in which she said Chapter 34 was the one that was the most difficult to write and the one that made her cry - partly because of the content but also because this chapter had been planned for sooooooo long.

Marivi, don't give away too much!!!

DAMMIT!!!

Jealous, are you?

Couldn't you find a Spanish edition in Panama?

I'm done reading it. I must admit I cried and got goose bumps. It was a fantastic book - that's all I'll say. But I'm emotionally exhausted (don't read much into that, I'm not giving anything away!).

So last Friday nite, I stopped by the supermarket near my house for a couple of things - and they had the Harry Potter there! No lines! No wait! 25% off! Went home and read the first two chapters. Read 1/2 of it on the way to see Gaby and the kids in Florida on Saturday...finished it on Monday. I LOVED IT! Don't worry - no spoilers here. No way. Enjoy!!!

Glad you liked it too Stephanie. Rowling is one amazing story-teller. What an imagination!

I'm scared to comment because I don't want to give anything away inadvertently.

I loved the books. All of them. I know they are junkfood -- as opposed to great literature... Hamburgers, not steak. But they are In-N-Out made with Niman Ranch, not Mickey D's ;)

Jealous? Me? YES!!! From experience I know the Spanish edition won't be available for months. The English edition is everywhere, however. EEEK!! Meanwhile, my copy is waiting for me in the post office at the garrison. !! I'm way to cheap to get a second copy here...at full price thank you very much. Plus, as Mom says, she'd have no one to talk to until I finished!!! :)

Y'all go ahead and talk about it. I'm sure you will never reveal ALL. The books are too full of stuff to do that.

So, I think John, Kassem and I are the only slow pokes... And Carmen too, but it's not her fault! I will try to hurry so we can discuss...

I'm glad to hear that you all loved it. I find that encouraging.

Our son Barrett is reading the book by himself. He loves it. This morning he asked my wife Nina if they could go to the library at the university where she teaches so he could read in the commonroom. This room is right out of Hogwarts. He sat in a big chair beneath stainglass windows and Tudor decor. Evidently the other professors thought he was a scream being he is only 8 years old.

John, my husband has commented that he is astonished that kids will read an 800 page book without blinking. I bet none of us ever read anything that long when we were kids.

I also think it's great that she has led a boy to WANT to be in a library. WOW! Actually, makes me want to go see this library :)

When everyone is finished I'll have one question - there's one thing I didn't understand even after reading it over and over again . . .

Interesting info...

I caught a little bit of the Today show's interview with JK this morning. She said that the last 1/3 of the book was almost exactly as she had planned it all those years ago, except for one thing. She said the appearance of Mr. Weasely was different because she had planned on killing him off in Book 5, but she just couldn't bring herself to do it. Remember, Harry had the vision of Mr. Weasley being hurt, told the Order and they were able to rescue him in time... So there you go...

phew, I'm glad she didn't kill him off. That would have been hard for me to handle. It's so nice that Harry has a solid family he can rely on and losing the father would have been too much for him. Another dead Dad.

I loved the Snape twist...

ARGH!!!!!!!! But please do continue!

Marivi - no spoilers. NOT FAIR to everyone else. PERIOD. BAD BAD girl.

Don't worry Stephanie, no matter what happens with Snape, it's going to be a twist!

But, if you guys can't help yourselves, please put something like this...


<<<<<<<<<<<<<SPOILER ALERT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

so that we can't miss it, but can miss it if we want to!

Dang!!! Still no progress...early morning and late evenings have prevented me to be able to read the book to my family and we've all agreed to read it as a family. If discussed, I agree, please use ole spoiler alert message.

John M.: Barrett is just amazing. Period.

yea, Marivi - hold on with any comments. Don't give anything away yet - even with the spoiler note, people's eyes are going to catch stuff. Let's just wait a bit more. When I was reading the book I'd have to cover parts of the same page because my eye would keep jumping down to see what was going to happen.

Sue, you mentioned in a prior post that you heard Rowling say that she cried when she wrote Chapter 34. I cried too - no - I sobbed. My puppies were all worried because my lips were blabbing away and tears were popping out.

That's not a spoiler because a zillion things could have happened in that chapter. You'll just have to wait and see and let me know if you cry too. I'm just glad I'm not the only one that cried like a baby.

JOHN - FORGET THE FAMILY. Hide under a blanket or an invisibility cloak and read the book. After you've completed it you can read with the family. A man must do what a man must do!!!

On another note, while here I have been reading Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior. What a HOOT that woman. I mean, she knows her stuff and is quite droll.

Finished! All I have to say is wow, what a ride! I'm left with nothing but admiration for this woman and the world she created. Can't wait until you are all finished and we can talk about it. I feel as though I need to go back and re-read the last 5 chapters or so.... so much happened!

Sue - I did! Definitely worth a re-read. In fact, I've just about finished HP #1 again - amazing how cohesive the work is! Talk about your "continuity" factor - wow. amazing. simply amazing.

JK did a web chat through her publisher, which is posted here:

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/0...loomsbury-chat.html

Spoilers galore! So don't read it unless you've finished the book.

I love the whole dementor/patronus idea. How many times in life have we felt that the happiness was being sucked out of us and we'd never be happy again? I have at times felt that the dementors were upon me. In the interview JK said this about the patronus:

".... the Patronus often mutates to take the image of the love of one's life (because they so often become the 'happy thought' that generates a Patronus)."

I think it is a comfort to consider that the ones you love or the ones who love you can protect you when your world becomes cold... I was thinking about that a lot today.

OMG!! I am so weak and shameless!! I read the chat! Some made no sense - I haven't read HP7 - and some...well...I'll get the details when I do read the book. But FRED???? And HEDWIG??? This does disturb me. I'll have the book in my hands in 10 days. ARG!!!!!

I didn't read the chat, but early this week there was an NBC Dateline special with JK Rowling and it was full of spoilers...and I couldn't turn away!!!

Still haven't finished it, but am halfway through...so many new characters!!!

You guys are terrible!! Cheaters....

No more spoilers, now, come on!

Carmen, I just reread the chat - you know way too much now!!!!

Anyone else out there who hasn't read it, don't do it, resist the temptation! I'm half inclined to delete that post!

sue - that post was your fault!! Carmen - it's yummy regardless. And do not skip to the end first! The journey is worth it.

Sorry Carmen, I had to delete that last post. You're giving too much away.... Careful, please. There are people who haven't read anything yet and really don't want to know.

And to think I got my wrist slapped for a minor comment about Snape ;-)

Edited by author 08-05-2007 01:07 PM
OK, I'll clean it up: NO WAY am I skipping to the end. There is, I'm sure, lots of detail like all the other books.

I had posted my daughter's comments after reading the JK chat. She basically said that had she read the chat first it would have saved her a lot of the ups and downs (mostly the downs!) of the emotional roller coaster that the book apparently is. Also, that if you read the chat, all is not totally revealed or ruined for the reader. I totally trust her on things Harry, so I'm sure I will totally enjoy the book and anyone else out there so weak as to have read the chat can take comfort.

Even though I saw the Rowling interview with the spoilers, and haven't read the Snape chapter yet (I'm on Chapter 17 -- sigh), it hasn't taken away one bit of the excitement in reading it and the anticipation of finishing it.

It is an incredible rollercoaster journey. Do you guys feel she's crammed so much in this last book? So much history is being revealed that it is almost as if she could have spent another 700 pages or so going into the different lives introduced in this one.

Anyway...still plugging along. I have accent soup going on when I read...what does a goblin's voice sound like??? Will have to check out Daly's version of the book to see how close I came.

I guess I don't want to be spared the ups and downs... that's the thrill of the read, isn't it? The whole point is not knowing how it's going to end...

Well, I'm not sure still how it is going to end. Though there were spoilers, it is in the "how it happens" that is the thrill. Regardless, I'm still feeling the ups and downs.

I think we're all so into this, and she is so good, we're going to cry our eyes out no matter what we know ahead of time. She has always let it be known that characters will die in the series, and HP7 is no exception. I must say that I did not cry at Dumbledore's death in HP6. Just leaped out of my chair screaming NOOOOOOOOO!!!! and scared the hell out of the dogs. :)!!

Reading another book while waiting (and WAITING) for Harry. It's called The Sopranos and Philosophy: I Kill Therefore I Am. It's part of the Popular Culture and Philosophy series published by Open Court. It's really good. Having some inkling about philosophy is helpful, but you learn a lot too. In a very entertaining way. The series also includes Seinfeld, The Simpsons, The Matrix, Buffy, Lord of the Rings, and baseball. Haven't read any of them, but I am inspired. I became a closet Buffy fan toward the end and have always loved Seinfeld. There may be something to learn.

Big Buffy fan here since the beginning. Used to make my old housemate (a guy) watch it - he finally gave up on me and decided watching Sarah Michelle Geller do martial arts and kick butt wasn't the worst thing in the world. They sure dealt with all the teen angst issues in a creative great way.

I'm reading Suite Francaise. Has anyone else read it?

Okay, how's it going with the Deathly Hallows? Are we getting any closer to being able to talk about it? Carmen, have you started? John? Miguel?

I'm a glutton for this stuff, I swear... I went back and reread HP1 and am now reading HP2. It's kind of funny to read HP1 -- it's so simple... The dangers are so less terrifying than in later books. But it's still fun. Remember seeing The Sixth Sense, and how the 2nd viewing is so different from the first, once you know the ending? It's kinda like that. All the references to characters that meant almost nothing the first time, but grow in meaning the second time around...

sue - isn't it amazing how she stayed so true to the story line and carried it through all the books?

I have promised my son that I would not read The Deathly Hallows until he has finished it himself. He is savouring the book.
Sue. We can't get enough either. We are always re-reading the other volumes. My wife Nina can do all the voices perfectly. You would almost think that the actors themselves were in the room. It is a wonderful stage in Barrett's development. His room has many Harry Potter posters as well as those from Michigan Maize and Blue.

I'm done!!! Very good. But somehow not totally satisfying. I thought she kinda cheated a bit...remind me when we're beating it to death. Felt like the StarWars Episodes 1-3, disappointing, except her storytelling much better. This makes no sense, I'll work on better words. Gotta go to the airport now to pick up a friend...we're all coming in now. School starts next week.

I'm still reading it out loud to the family...we'll be getting through many chapters this weekend and hopefully in the 30's by Monday.

In the meantime...check out the next installment of the movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuEAJFnMIjk&NR=1

Cheers...

It is cool how she kept it all together and the story holds throughout the series. What discipline!!

You people better be out there reading!!!

I'm done!!!!

Well?!?!?

and???? come on john - don't hold out on us....

Edited by author 09-07-2007 09:21 PM
Okay, let's talk.

Watch out, SPOILERS GALORE!!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SPOILERS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I thought the first half was a little slow and aimless, but I thought the last half was great! I was very satisfied with how she tied it all up.

I cried quite a bit... Poor Dobby! I really hoped that he would end up living with Harry for the rest of his life, but I guess dying to save him was a suitable end.

Interesting about Snape. I thought it was really cool that he shed his thoughts at the end so that Harry could see everything in the Pensieve. He really was a very complex character. It's interesting that he was so ambivalent toward Harry (hated his father, loved his mother) but ultimately he did right by him.

I was downright incredulous when it was revealed that Harry had to die! Oh my God, after all that??! And I was crying, crying, crying when he walked into the forest accompanied by his parents, Sirius, and Remus. If I have any criticism, it's that almost every adult that ever meant anything to Harry was killed off! Did she really need to do that?! She did spare Hagrid and the Weasleys, so I will forgive her.

I really liked the whole story of the three objects of the Deathly Hallows and how they had been there all along. Mostly I'm just amazed at how well the story held together over all 7 volumes. I would really like to ask her what parts she had planned all along and what parts she added in the telling...

Edited by author 09-08-2007 02:16 AM
You really thought Harry was going to die?? Never crossed my mind to go down that path. And I thought the "dream" (or whatever) sequence was really lame, even though some vehicle was necessary to fill in all the holes filled in that chapter.

I was not happy about Hedwig or Dobby!!! What the hell? And FRED!!! (It was Fred, no?) How can the twins not be together forever?? I'm glad Ron went into busines with his brother although I don't see how Hermione wrapped her brain around that. I'm glad Bill's veela (What is her name? My brain is dead this morning!) turns out to be the stand-up broad she seemed to be at the end of HP6. Liked the kids' names at the end. Especially Albus Severus. Snape did turn out to be the most interesting character in the series, if not the most lovable.

ARGH!! Gotta go...meeting friends at the market for coffee. Would that be Caffeine:30?

By "dream" do you mean the sequence with Dumbledore at the end? I really liked that! My favorite part of all the books has always been the "post-game wrap up" with Dumbledore at the end. The most revealing, most significant conversations took place between Harry and Dumbledore, and in book 7, it was no different.

Yea, that was a bummer about Fred too, but it didn't bother me as much as some of the other deaths for some reason.

Yes, the thing with Dumbledore at the end. Oh, I agree that the post-game wrap up with big D at the end is great. I just thought it was a bit of a cop-out this time. I mean, "is this real, or in my head?" What is that? I think I would have preferred a private chat with Dumbledore's portrait in the headmaster's office. Somehow I can buy that, but misty platform that may or may not be a train station...I don't know. Just feels hokey. Overdone.

I did like the blob that was the Voldemort left-over. See what happens in the end when you are truly evil?

Sorry, finished the book on the eve of a long campout. Back now...

Okay, spoiler alert!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SPOILERS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I new that Harry was a horcrux all along. Made sense, so, he had to die. I also had thought that when Voldermort used some of Harry's blood would be very significant the way JK had Dumbledore's look change when he heard that news in HP4. When I was reading this one, I thought having the hallows would be what brought him back. I also liked him walking to his death with all of the adults around him.

I liked the post-game wrap up but the scene really didn't make sense. Did he really have a choice to go back or not? What gave him that power? Why was Dumbledore there and not, say, his parents?

I actually liked the struggle between Harry and Hermione while they were hunting the horcrux's. I don't know if I felt it was as slow and aimless, but it did give JK an opportunity to have us visit all the characters once again. How many times can the Malfoy's cheat Voldermort's death curse by the way? Everyone else got killed for failing the way the Malfoy's did, especially so many times.

Wife cried at almost all the death's except Moody's. Happened to quick in his character development to really get any type of connection as HP4 was all about Crouch being Moody so you really don't get a love for him after all.

To find out about Lupin and Tonks (especially Tonks -- in the last movie I thought she was a hottie) the way she made us find out wasn't as dramatic as the way Fred died. That was a shocker. Along with Dobby.

I also must say I really liked the way all the details of the earlier books were made to make sense in this final book. Really closed the loop well.

JK really wrote a great story. Sadly, all of her future projects will be compared to this and I don't know if we'll read another long engaging tale as this again.

So is that it? Are we done with HP 7? Stephanie? Marivi? Anyone else out there???

I guess the thing that sucks with this is that the questions have been answered. The suspense is over and we now know what happens. What a let down. I want more HP suspense and controversy!

My students who read Harry (and you'd be surprized who loves Harry!) mostly agree with us. Loved the book, bummed it's over. Must say, I have not gotten my usual re-read done yet so I'm probably not done kicking it around in my brain.

in process on the re-read as well. so much detail - hard to remember it all!

Edited by author 09-28-2007 08:17 PM
I remembered that someone had started the AHS book club and thought I would put my 2 cents in about a GREAT book that I just finished. Its a real "chick" book, but I think a guy that is in touch with his "feminine side could enjoy it as well.

EAT, PRAY, LOVE by Elizabeth Gilford! I couldn't get my nose out of it ... its her true story. Recently divorced and a write, she gets her publisher to advance her $$ to write about her adventures for the next year ... eating in Italy, praying in India and loving in Indonesia.

I loved it! Its a quick read that so many women can really relate to.

Sorry that I can't give any input about HP ... it just isn't for me, but I can tell that all of you are really into it!

Dumbledore gay? Hmm. Never really thought of him as any kind of sexual being really.