Welcome to CCS

From John Pierce: "It is much too easy for most of us to be myopic about our own mores and folkways, and without even realizing that we are doing it."
I have noticed this and as a result, I'm alway wanting to learn about other peoples' world views.


"In fact, the Old Testament contains some dire warnings about attempting to contact the dead."
I do wonder about this and wonder how others interpret this. I have a friend who is a Christian Shamman. He encounters the dead on his shamanic journeys, and often the journeys are something that comes on involutarily, so it's not like he is seeking out the dead (whether this is always true, I don't know.) But I have wondered how he view that commandment.

What is being commanded against could be a very different thing from a simple prayer for help. I once read a book on magic in the Roman Empire. One technique was to try to call up an executed criminal who might hold a grudge against humanity, and persuade him to hurt the magician's enemies. Perhaps it was that kind of thing the Old Testiment was ruling against.



Marty, Oliver Davies did discuss the controversy over whether Celtic Christanity was a separate entity. I thought it was a little silly, because even if the people considered themselves to be a part of the same church as Rome, it's obvious that it was different from Rome. Maybe the Irish didn't realize how different they were. And I remember that some of the Abbotts wrote to the Pope as if he were their equal, not superior.

Greetings all,

John - While the tendency was always there in the Roman church, it was Constantine who appointed himself 'Pontifex Maximus', the Roman term for High Priest. In doing this he merged the Church with the State and their whole mindset. The Pope still holds that title today!

Actually, I was a good singer in my younger days and even was in several groups with friends! As a coxswain, I found the 'Kyrie' from Missa Luba had an excellent beat for the oarsmen too!

As for Catholic and Orthodox 'veneration' of the saints, it was a way to study their lives so they might learn to do likewise! Since they were 'strong in the Lord', they were considered to be useful in praying for the one requesting help, they were never worshiped! Its the same we do here with our prayer requests. In the Celtic mindset, the dead are always present since they are eternal and 'with Christ' now. These differences might be relevant to us here in this existence but in the next its all Eternity!

The OT section you referred to was concerning the 'witch of Endor' who was sought for personal gain/knowledge. That was necromancy, that was forbidden, it just wasn't the Jewish custom to ask those in Eternity to join with us in prayer so THAT was never really addressed in Scriptures. But, to be honest, I have enough good friends here to join with me I never really think of the others when I need help!

Gabrielle - Actually, you are correct about missing Scriptures. If you recall, Paul mentioned his epistle to the Laodoceans. We never got a copy of that one! Scholars have also found portions, fragments of other writings but not enough to present in the Bible.

Lillian - It was Columbanus who addressed the Pope as a brother and admonished him for his attitude of superiority! "Maybe the Irish didn't realize how different they were." - of course we do! We just try not to flaunt it so much!

Regarding Davies and O'Loughlin's points, there are two Celtic Christianities! There was the Church in the Celtic lands and by all intents and purposes, it was conformed (in the beginning) with Rome. Its format was Roman, its language was Latin. As it began to take on a unique personality, Rome noticed and 'strongly encouraged' more conformity. The Celtic clergy preferred to remain apart in their own traditions. The second form of CC was that practiced by the people. The Celts were always religious in their daily lives, before Patrick and after. This Christianity survived to this day! It wasn't a church, it was the sentiment of the people! It became the way of life for us. That's what many scholars miss because it didn't leave any trace as does a building or liturgies.

Again, thanks all for your sharings here today, please continue!!!

Slan

About some of the points raised here:

1. The completeness of the Scriptures: While there were other writings, if
God had meant them to be part of the Bible, He would have insured that they
would be in there, that they would have been canonized. We are lacking
nothing in that regard. We have the complete counsel of God in the Bible.
(Marty, what epistle to the Laodiceans are you talking about? Laodicea is mentioned only in Revelation 3, isn't it?)

2. I do believe in the communion of saints. I have no problem studying their lives for inspiration, though I am probably more inspired by the
lives of saints I have actually known, such as some of those missionaries
I mentioned earlier. "Veneration" is a tricky word. Just how far does one go with it? I suppose I can understand the medieval fascination for wanting a saint's index finger or little toe or something, though I find
that to be gross. In any event, I see no point in praying to them. As I
said before, the practice just isn't supportable by Scripture.

3. Many of the practices of Catholicism and Orthodoxy which were supposedly handed down from the early Church really originated quite a
bit later, over a period of centuries. Now, the fact that something came along later doesn't necessarily make it wrong, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it is good or correct, either. Or it may just be neutral.
The canonization of saints dates back only to around 995, and the infallibility of the Pope to 1870. (According to my sources.) To cite but two examples.

The problem takes on different forms, but is hardly confined to Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I've known Protestants and evangelicals
who cling tightly to their own traditions, such as style of music,
having Sunday evening services, having altar calls after every sermon, and a list which goes on and on. In many churches, it's almost as if I can hear Tevye, from FIDDLER ON THE ROOF, singing out loudly, "Tradition!"

Incidentally, do you know how the tradition of Sunday evening evangelistic services was started? On the prairie, churches were among the first to
get the new gas lamps. People would come on Sunday evenings just to see
this new-fangled invention. The churches decided that this presented them
with a good opportunity to have evangelistic services. Well and good --
except that what was a good opportunity for a moment in time became an
established tradition, long after the gas lamps were gone, and long after
unchurched folks started coming on Sunday evenings. But to some people,
dispensing with Sunday evening evangelistic services is tantamount to
heresy!

Well, I'm ranging a bit far afield here, aren't I?
 

I once heard Pete Gillquist, an evangelical convert to Orthodoxy, say that he wanted to find a church like Paul and the apostles had, and believed that he discovered that in Eastern Orthodoxy. But there is no indication in the epistles that Paul and the others used icons, had priests, etc.
Again, I'm not necessarily saying that this, by itself, makes the practices wrong. But it is erroneous to claim the authority of the early Church for practices which developed over time later on. (But yes, let's give Eastern Orthodoxy credit for having an autocephalous, rather
than autocratic, approach.)



4. Marty, thanks for supplying the reference to the Witch of Endor, though it seems that I was thinking of another passage, as well, but if so, I can't quite conjure it up (ha!) at the moment. In any event, I am most
decidedly not referring to the Mosaic Law. Yes, I know that people pick
and choose which laws to keep, when in reality Christ fulfilled the Law,
which had served its purpose. Those elements of the Law which we need to pay attention to were reiterated later on.

5. Marty, I understand what you are saying about the dead being eternal
and hence, always present, but that's a concept I have some difficulties
with. My own idea, which I freely admit is not orthodox (small o), is
that those who have died in Christ remain dead until the Resurrection/
Rapture. And yes, I know the Scriptures which would seem to contravene this view. It's not a belief, just what I tend to think. It's what the
Seventh-Day Adventists refer to as "soul sleep" (which brings back a
discussion we had a while back about the nature of the soul, and I have
no desire to retread that ground). But yes, in the next life it's all
Eternity, which is something our finite minds can't grasp. In essence,
there are two realities: a time-bound existence, and an eternal existence.


6. On the subject of culture, I believe it was Reinhold Neibuhr who wrote of the varying possible approaches, including Christ over Culture, Christ against Culture, Christ through Culture, and so forth. I'd have to go back and research this, however, before commenting further. Fascinating stuff, in any event.

In paragraph five, I meant to say, "long after unchurched folks STOPPED
coming...." Sorry.

John, I firmly support you believing whatever it is that you believe about the Bible and our Faith. I would even lay down my life for your right to continue to do so.

I just wish you could understand that many of your points are really just your interpretation of the Bible and Christianity. It is hard to have discussions when one party demands they are 100% correct. You may feel that way about your beliefs but not ever denomination of Christianity would agree with you. If there is nothing new here to learn then why are any of us here at all????

Hey John,

You can EDIT your posts! If you make a mistake and catch it later you can look on the upper right hand side of your message and you will have two choices, Edit or Delete. It brings up the test editor again and you can change it there.

Laodoceans - I recall one of Paul's epistles encouraged whatever church he was addressing to read the epistle he sent to another church. I forget now which it was, I thought it was the Laodoceans. Scholars aren't sure if its really missing or included within another of his texts since some of them seem to be patched together in places! Sorry, I don't have time to look for it now but I think you know the passage I refer to.

If anything in your time here, you should have learned by now that Christians, good Christians, come in a rainbow of sizes, shapes, colors and traditions! Yes, we are all separated by those traditions but the Celtic Way is to see past them, accept the person before you and understand their differences. No need to criticize them because they are different than your own. Learn to accept differences of good people Christ brings to you here. We are very diverse! (but still good!)

Slan
Marty

Marty -- Thanks for the information on how to edit post-submitting.

Clearly, there were other letters and writings not included in the Bible.
My main point is that, if they are missing, it is for a reason.

Gabrielle, I didn't mean to offend you. I understand that there are
different points of view. The items I'm discussing here are adiaphora,
i.e., extras. I don't mean that holding them excludes one from the grace of Christ. Nonetheless, I feel constrained to make my understanding known.
I'm a teacher. That's what teachers do. But at the end of the day, if
the other person truly belongs to Christ, and is trusting in Him for salvation, that's the bottom line.

If the format were not to discuss doctrine or practice at all, I think
I could respect that. After all, I have participated in the Emmaus
Walk (a descendant of the Catholic Cursillo renewal program), where
folks from numerous denominations (Protestants and Catholics) come
together. There, we don't focus on doctrine or practice, but upon
Christ's work in our lives, specifically as He worked through the
renewal weekend and its aftermath. No problem at all. In fact, much
of the time, we don't even know each other's denominations.

I don't feel that I am 100% correct. (98.5%, maybe.) I am always
open to new understandings, and in fact do believe that I have learned
some things here. I suppose I am lax in discussing those, as I tend to
focus on the areas where I disagree and take the agreements for granted.
I suppose the one thing I would insist on is a biblical basis for
whatever a given understanding is. And yes, I know, that gets us into
the realm of interpretation. But one has to start with the Bible,
and not anything else. It's all well and good to talk about what the
Celts or some other group believed or did, but I still have to ask,
"Chapter and verse?"

That may be the greatest source of division here. But I certainly do
feel that I accept people as they are, while still contending for my
own understandings. As I told someone else in another venue, if we
could sit down across a table, with our favorite libations in front of
us (iced tea for me), and discuss these and other topics, I'm sure that
we'd be doing it in a cordial manner, with smiles on our faces. Alas,
none of that comes across in print or pixel. (We could fix our own
libations, at least, I suppose!)

Here's the Laodacean passage: Col 4:16 -
"After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea."

John, you mentioned that praying to saints just isn't a practice supportable by Scripture. My view is that Christians have great freedom in their practices if guided by love (unless it's something forbidden).

The only thing I see forbidding it are the Old Testiment commandments:
Deuteronomy 18:9-12
"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or WHO CONSULTS THE DEAD. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you."

I think though that something James Mackey said in the preface of Celtic Spirituality is applicable here: that invoking powers is only magic when it's done as if that power could be AUTOMATICALLY activated, bypassing God's will and failing to acknowledge God's grace in the help. Then he further says that no religious belief is safe from this mentality. Even saying "I accept you, Jesus as my Savior and Lord" can be used magically. I think he is right.

John, I must admit that I just don't know how to talk to you. On one had you apologize for offending and then on the other hand you defend your stance in offending.
 You know, I am a trained teacher as well. My father is also a teacher. It is in my blood so to speak, the same as my Celtic way of looking at the world. All of us here know the Bible. Some of us here are wise enough to realize that we can all look at the same item and get as many different interpretations from it as there are viewers. If we all demanded that we see the exact same thing then we would never have peace. So, I am asking you to give your opinion and then allow for others to also give opinions but not demand we all agree with your opinion. It is in the demanding that I find offense.
I hope this clarifies things a bit.

Edited by author 06-16-2009 06:06 PM
Hey John,

Here's the root of your problem with us, " one has to start with the Bible, and not anything else." - 'sola scriptura' again! The book of Hezikiah 12:1 clearly states that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat its errors! Were I to ever go back and teach in the Bible School, I would insist that Evangelicals learn Church History! So much has been lost without it. Think about it.. it might help!

Slan
Marty

Add me to the list of teachers here. I hold a valid Ohio teaching certificate. Does that earn me brownie points or something?

Marty, you continue to impress me with your vast knowledge when it comes to the Book of Hezikiah!

Hey Cindy,

Thanks! me too! (hehehe)

Cindy,

Can you e-mail me at work. I have some notes, I would like to share with you concerning the writing project. Thanks

scotty.weeks@fot.com

Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Its been a great day here in the NE! A great day for getting the chores outside done before the rain comes back. Here's something from Newell's Sounds of the Eternal, Wednesday Night Closing Prayer. Its a pleasant thought to close out your day if you give it time to set in...

Closing Prayer

In sleep may my body be rested.

In sleep may my soul be renewed.

In sleep may my dreams be carriers of truth
borne by the night’s visiting angels.

In sleep my I know you in love, O God,
in sleep may I be known by you,
the Lover of every living soul this night,
the Lover of my ever living soul.

May you all have a pleasant and peaceful evening..

<I>Slan</I
Marty

Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Here's something to consider before you begin your weekend. Its from Newell's 'Sounds of the Eternal', Meditation and Thanksgiving.

Scripture and Meditation

‘Seek God’s presence continually.' Psalm 105:4

‘I am the first and I am the last.
Do not fear for I am with you.’ Isaiah 44:6,8

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

At the beginning of time and at the end
you are God and I bless you.

At my birth and in my dying,
in the opening of the day and at its close,
in my waking and my sleeping
you are God and I bless you.
You are the first and the last,
the giver of every gift,
the presence without whom there would be no present,
the life without who there is no life.

Lead me to the heart of life’s treasure
that I may be a bearer of the gift.

Lead me to the heart of the present
that I may be a sharer of your eternal presence.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

May your weekend be filled with His presence in all you do...

Slan
Marty

Thanks, Marty. That's one of the most beautiful in that book.

We spent yesterday at my parents' house celebrating both Father's Day and my mom's 80th birthday. A lot of family was there, all three of my sisters, and everyone had a great time. That doesn't seem so unusual if you don't know my family. They don't get along most of the time. There are a lot of little kids and the noise usually makes my dad grumpy. But not this time. It was truly a miracle!

Hope you all had a great weekend.

At church (a satellite of the church I grew up in) the pastor (who was visiting, interestingly enough) talked about social justice. One of the things in Phyllis Tickle's The Great Emergence that helped me was the diagram of the churches. My church is in the social justice quadrant, and seeing that illustration helped me understand a lot. Some of you who have studied different denominations may not have had such a revelation, but if you're like me and you never could quite figure out why Christians don't get along, this helps. Not that it's the answer, but it explains a lot.