Welcome to CCS

John, I hear what you have cited as your reasoning for not believing in the whole saint thing. But, I would just like to ask why you think that both the Orthodox and Catholic churches continue this practice (for 2,000 years now) if it is so anti-Christian? Both churches have all of the early traditions that may, in fact, include traditions that do not contradict the Bible and were actually part of the early practices. Perhaps some things just didn't make it into all of the scriptures? How do we know that we have ALL of the letters from St Paul? Perhaps some of them are lost? And, why do some people pick and choose which laws from the old testament to believe in? Yes, do not contact the dead for purposes of manipulation is in there (of course, the Christian concept of doing the Lord's will would be a part of every prayer to a Saint) but you do not follow all of the dietary laws?

It seems that much of Christianity believes in the communion of saints. Sorry that you don't John. But, it is part of the Celtic Christian church's traditions. If you don't wish to participate in that practice that is fine by me. Certainly it is not a point to have a battle over. I just wish some people who feel more conservative in their CC views would just try to understand things every once and while before judging them as evil.

Marty, thanks for the explanation about how the Roman military mindset carried over into the Church. That explains a great deal. I never could quite grasp the concept of attending a service carried out in a dead language!

Sadly, over the years, even Protestant missionaries haven't done as good a
job at adapting to the local culture as perhaps they should have. Much
credit, I believe, must be given to a man named Hudson Taylor, who broke
with the approach of trying to import both Christianity and Western culture, by living among the Chinese, dressing in their style, and so forth.

In my days with the Evangelical Friends, I had the privilege of knowing former missionaries to China and India (among other places). One man,
in particular, when he preached, seemed almost to BE Chinese in fleeting moments.

(But, Marty, I'd really like to hear you sing the African Mass!)

It is much too easy for most of us to be myopic about our own mores and
folkways, and without even realizing that we are doing it. I'm certainly guilty of it, and I'm even a person who has studied foreign languages and cultures. If I'm guilty, then the average American, who is monolingual
(more is the pity!), must be even worse. {He said with a modicum of hubris and his nose held high in the air! Ha.}

As to the issue of praying to dead saints, all I can note is that I Timothy
2:5 says that "There is one God and one Mediator between God and men,
the Man Jesus Christ." While it is perfectly valid, and commanded in
Scripture, to ask others (living) to pray for us, there is nothing about
seeking help among the dead. In fact, the Old Testament contains some
dire warnings about attempting to contact the dead. Surely, if we were
meant to pray to saints, Paul or one of the other New Testament writers
would have had something to say about it.

Amen, Marty!

Edited by author 06-16-2009 11:09 AM
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Lillian - may God with with you during your chemo treatment!

Most of us do have 'Celtic Spirituality' by Oliver Davies, it is a major resource book and a good overview of CC. Be aware though, that O'Loughlin is sometimes critical of the existence of CC as a separate entity from Western Catholicism of the Early Church.

As for the Early Church, yes, it was much more adaptive and sensitive to the indigenous peoples as the were presented the Good News. That still is the heart of Celtic Evangelism whether its inner-city or aboriginal.

If you look at the Roman church and understand its origins in the Roman military mindset of conquest, you can understand how this came about. It was just in the West, the East was adaptive. That's how we ended up with so many strands of Eastern Orthodoxy, Greek, Russian, Ukrainian, Coptic, Syriac, etc. There were a few other forms of Western Christianity but they disappeared along the way as well as the Celtic. Conformity was the heart of Roman 'catholic' (universal) thinking. They just wanted everyone to be saying and doing the same, whether they spoke or understood Latin or not. Actually, I can still recite my prayers in Latin!

I'd agree with you about the wisdom within other groups. Thankfully, Patrick had the good sense to explain the Gospel according to what the Celts already knew as being true and good. All they were lacking was the key, Christ! For me, its nice to realize that God didn't abandon all mankind in favor of the Semitic tradition. All those who study Nature can find Him and see His truths all around them. All we need to bring to them is the key to unlock the mysteries of their beliefs!

In my readings on the Emergent Church, they have the same policy of sharing the Gospel in terms that are relevant to the people with whom they share it. That's encouraging to see that the Western scholars/leaders/thinkers are aware of our historic arrogance about conformity. So many subliminal Roman ideas are still part of Western processes.

Back in the 60's (I was still a Catholic then) I recall what reaction the Church had to the churches in Africa that sang in Latin but used their native rhythms. An album (33's LP!) suddenly became so popular and I can still sing some of the African Mass to this day. It was called 'Missa Luba' and was very joyful and moving!! A few years later, Vatican II came along and disbanded the universal use of Latin in the mass.

Well, thanks again for sharing your progress here. I hope He meets you along the way with your studies...

Slan
Marty

I started "Celtic Spirituality" Oliver Davies. The Preface is by James Mackey, who writes in a very professor-ish way and takes at least 2 readings to understand.

But... what I think he was saying is very cool: that Christianity did adapt to the existing culture or the Celts or rather transformed it (rather than replacing it).

I think everyone here knows that, but the cool thing was how he extended the concept to the way it ought to be in the whole world. - That every culture in the world has something in it (that was taught them by God- [my addition]) that will enrich Christianity as Christ transforms it (if Christianity is allowed to integrate with their culture rather than replace their culture with the Western version of Christianity).

He believes that this process is important for fulfilling the potential of Christianity.

It reminds me of the American Indian speaches I'm reading now; how important it is to them to be able to develop their own version of worship and church, and how they believe that the Great Spirit taught their ancestors important and good things that fit with Christianity.

Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Lillian - While I understand the concept and intent and I also realize the heart behind it, yet I find I still never ask anyone other than Christ for help! I never really got into that 'patron saint' idea even when a Catholic! What's important is that we understand the heart of those around us and don't judge them, even if we can disagree. Love is the purpose, so that they may see the Light of Christ in what we do believe.

I've done the 'Early Christianity' with Prof. Johnson and really enjoyed it. I've had a few courses where the instructors were obviously biased but he was right on with everything. The present one I'm doing is way better however! He's so clear is some of the more obscure points of theology that makes me wonder why I'm just learning it now since I went to a Catholic college! Also, he shares from the Protestant and Orthodox theology as well and explains the variations of perspectives. I still prefer the DVD version since sometimes they use graphics. I'm tempted to make copies and send them out to any who want to learn real theology!

Slan
Marty

Scotty, so the wedding was good and everyone stayed well? No swine flu?

You know Lillian, I think you just have to go with what you are comfortable. If this concept causes you stress then it is not worth it. But, I think that "Team Jesus" is a cool way to think about it because that is exactly what it is.

I have the Teaching Company course on "Early Christianity: The Experience of the Divine". I really like the Teacing Company; there are so many interesting looking classes, but since my unemployment, even their sale price is an "ouch". The other funny thing is that I generally only want to listen to lectures in the car. They generally talk slower than I can read, and that makes me really impatient when I'm in a place where I could read instead.

Thanks for the book suggestion.


Back to thinking about Saints: I guess what bothers me is that praying to them seems to imply that you think God isn't going to listen to you on your own. I don't know why I'd feel that way, when I don't about living saints - although with living people, I don't usually ask for prayer unless it's a class where they are actually asking for prayer requests.

When reading the Carmina Gadelica prayers, all the prayers for saints (which usually go through asking Bridget, Mary, Michael, Columba, and ending with Jesus) - it come across to me as the saints being on a team with Jesus to help us. I guess that's OK since we, the saints, are the body of Christ.

Ahh Marty, I would love to take those courses. Someday, someday......
thanks for the suggestion for the new book as well.
I am reading an interesting history book called "The Celts:prehistory to present" by John Davies. I got inspired by a documetary I saw on National Geographic the other night about the Nebra Sky Disk which seems to be linked to the Celts in Germany. So much to learn and read and so little time!!!

Have a great day all!

Greetings all,

As some of you know, in addition to reading, I enjoy taking lessons on DVD from 'The Teaching Company' on various topics. I'm presently taking a course on 'The History of Christian Theology' and I'm so impressed with it! The instructor is excellent in explaining how the things we hold true now got their origins in the discussions and struggles of the Early Church. He's fair and unbiased with the three sects of Christianity and holds value to each perspective. I really appreciate that in this course in addition to his clarity and ease of explanations. So, I'll highly recommend it to you all, or specifically if you are looking the truth behind the rhetoric.

One of the books I am also enjoying is 'Thin Places' by Tracy Balzer. I think we've mentioned it here before. Its subtitle is 'An Evangelical Journey into Celtic Christianity'. Like many Evangelical women teachers she's 'experiential' in her presentation. While I'm enjoying it I often think that many of you women here would appreciate it also.

Thanks again all for your participation...

Slan

Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Melina - I'm glad my ruse worked! You really have a lot to offer us! I wish you'd feel more comfortable speaking up more often. Always great to hear from you...

"often at odds with my evangelical brethren" - I find I have the same difficulties as well! Perhaps that's why I no longer attend services? It just so difficult for me to keep my mouth closed when I hear things that just aren't true! So, for the sake of my wife's reputation, its best I stay home!

Its an interesting facet of human beings to band together in groups. We all seem to have a need for 'belonging'. Even O'Donohue brings this our but he is directing us to belonging to ourselves first! One of the ways a group has of fostering belonging is engendering the idea that there are 'enemies all around us'. Being one of the 'WE' sets you against the 'THEM' and encourages a false sense of belonging. The only flaw in this logic is giving up your 'self' to do it! I've seen it in so many clubs and organizations I've belonged to in my life, its a shame to see it in religious organizations as well. We are supposed to be the bringers of 'good news' to 'THEM'!!! But all we tell them most times sounds more like 'you're going to hell if you don't agree with me'!!

That's another thing I appreciate about the Celtic Way, its love for ALL mankind and nature, not just those that hold our beliefs. O'Donohue was very instrumental in 'Anam Cara' for showing me how to do it. I've often thought of collating the 'doctrines' of his teaching there. I'd love to have a discussion on it here as to what he professes but it seems its such a difficult read for many. I tend to get a little 'intense' about things I don't understand so I kept at him until I owned it! Well, maybe someday...

Thanks again for surfacing!

Lillian - its a little strange but even the Scriptures express that God is revealed in Nature all around us. Is it any wonder that those 'pagans' who took the time to observe and study know God better sometimes? If you study Nature, you discover TRUTH! Christ is the revelation of all Truth but he can still be known by those who seek in all around...

Thanks all for your participation. I enjoy listening and thinking how God is working in all of you...

Slan
Marty

Ah Marty, what a sneaky way to flush me out of the underbrush! You DID send me the notes, thank you, about 2 years ago. I'm in a continual re-read of Anam Cara, just reading and thinking about a passage here and there. He's deep, and I'm not sure I'll ever grasp the entirity of his message.
When talking "pagan", let us remember the original meaning: country folk. The word was used to describe those who lived outside the towns, those who looked to folk remedies and fairy stories to explain their reality. Alot of us would still fit that description, in spite of a healthy faith in Christ. I find that I am often at odds with my evangelical brethren over the simplest things, including holistic medicine, herbal studies and the complete belief in things unseen and not understood(Gabrielle's story resonates!) To dismiss so much as pagan or demon-driven is often our own intellectual snobbery. I'm not speaking of anyone here, but of so many I've encountered over the years who's closed minds find pagans/demons in every nook and cranny.
Ah, it's good to stretch my legs, but I think I'll slip back into the underbrush. 'Night, all.

Oh, and Gabrielle, I guess at first I was equating pagan with bad, but on further reflection, I realize that was not a give. For example the American Indians feel that God taught them to live in harmony with nature, and I sure can't say that was bad, although I supose they were techically pagan.

Marty, I think I should read the book at least once more before I see notes on it. I'll let you know when I do.

Gabrielle, that is a fascinating story. I am going to email you.

Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Lillian - I'm glad you are looking into O'Donohue in 'Anam Cara', he really unwraps the Celtic Spiritual perception well. However, it took me a while to first grasp it and then more time and prayer to accept. Once done though, I feel I have a great clarity to my purpose here on Earth now. I've read Him about seven times now because there was so much there that I couldn't retain it all! After about the third reading I started taking notes which turned out to be more of an 'outline of essentials'. I'll send you a copy if you'd like, it helps me find things quicker. Also, for some of the more foreign concepts, a quiet time for the Lord to explain it all really brought it home to me.

As for the 'saints around and within', yes, that's difficult for Protestants to accept. As an Orthodox friend explained it, we ask each other to pray for us and care for us, why should death end that relationship? They are merely in Eternity now and Eternity is within Christ and Christ is within each of us. It doesn't fit the Roman concept of categorizing things but we're talking of a whole other dimension of wonder within Christ! Celts never had the problem of accepting what was simply because they didn't understand it.. it just was! I appreciate that openness in CC.

Gabrielle - "turn off our brains and just turn on our hearts" - you now have the essence of 'seeing and hearing' in God's domain!! Its not that we turn off our brains, they just can watch what God has instilled within our hearts and learn from it! Just as intellect is real, so is the spiritual side of our life!

Melina - did you ever finish with 'Anam Cara'? I promised my notes to you too when you did.

Well, thanks all for your participation here...

Slan
Marty