Welcome to CCS

Scotty,

I have the second edition, 1908. The first edition was 1906, and apparently it's a condensed version of an early book, thus the title "A Small Social History of Ancient Ireland."

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings everyone,

Sorry to disturb the slumber but I've come across an article from 1985 about historic Celtic Christianity and its relevance for today that I thought everyone would enjoy. Feel free to comment or question on it here. Maybe we can even get a discussion going again!!! (hehehe)

To be fair, I must give credit for its discovery to our 'old friend' D.! He left it on our former site. God truly works in strange ways... and He still does!!!

Slan
Marty

Martin 'ol boy,

Ahhh, I know I was slumbering, but what link might we be refering to? I can't comment on what I can't see ;0P

Oooops!

Okay... I'm losing it!!! Here's the link -
http://www.spiritualitytoday.org/spir2day/853735woods.html

Slan
Marty

It took me awhile to get to that article. It was long, but I read the whole thing. It's a well written summary of Celtic Christianity and seems to fit with everything else I've been reading.

His conclusion was surprising, at least to me, seeing that it was written 21 years ago and talks of terrorism. Not that it didn't exist then, but it's such a focus for us now. I'm not sure I completely agree with his conclusion that we can learn today how to deal with terrorism by studying how the ancient Celtic monks dealt with it. Surely we live in a more civilized world today. I know some may argue, but I think we do!

For as well written and researched as that piece was, the last part puzzled me:
"In a word, the important lesson we can learn from our Christian brothers and sisters of that far distant time is one far older yet: not to render evil for evil. For it is only in patience that we shall possess our souls."
I don't believe that defending yourself is evil. I think the monks who faced Viking attacks did not simply stand and be killed. They had little to fight with. And the last sentence really stumps me. How do we possess our souls?

I guess the author of the piece is a much better journalist than a philospher!

Just my 2 cents.

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Cindy,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the article I uploaded. You've made some very good observations and objections! I agree that it was a very good summary of the development of Celtic Christianity and its relevance for today.

Here's my take on a few of the objections you raised. In the statement "And perhaps most significantly, we will learn that it is possible to live peaceably in the face of terror." it is not dealing with teaching us to live with terrorism, it is saying that we can still be at peace within ourselves in spite of it.

I can understand that it seems like we (here in the West) are 'more civilized' but that is not the case throughout the world. There is still much that needs to be done to bring about world peace and I am convinced that it will not occur unless the Prince of Peace is part of the process. Hence... there will always be those who feel terror and violence will serve them.

The reference to the 'far older' message reflects Christ's radical gospel of peace. Defense of one's self is a necessary ingredient to the love that Christ shows us! So, I would agree that our 'peace and security' involve defense. God counts us all precious in His sight and we have the responsibility to preserve ourselves for His sake as well.

"How do we possess our souls?" I'm glad you asked!!! But... I'm not sure where to begin... Let me start with some background on myself. I am a fan of John O'Donohue's Anam Cara. It was the one book that 'brought me home' to my Celtic self. In it, he spends a great deal of time referencing the nature and influence of the soul.

As I am sure you have discovered by now, Celtic Christianity strives for the 'three Harmonies'. It is one of the distinctive precepts that we live by. Strangely enough it begins with harmony of 'self discovery' rather than seeking God in His own Nature. It is in discovering who we are, who we have been designed to be and how we are to serve Him, that we find the Christ within us all. Accepting ourselves, as He has made us, is what gives us greater clarity in seeing Who He is! He is the God Who Is... within us!
In Western (Roman) theology, we have been taught to suppress the negative and accentuate the positive so that we may serve God better and hopefully make it into eternity. This is not Celtic thought! Believe it or not, God designed us (all people) for good. Everything we hate about ourselves had a 'good' plan and purpose in His design. There is nothing within us that was given us by Him that did not have a good purpose! Discovering what that purpose was and how to use it now... that is how we possess our souls! That is the first of the Harmonies, to learn to be at peace with ourselves. Only then can we learn to understand Who God is, Where He is and How I'm supposed to relate to Him in all mankind.

I realize this may sound a little radical. Wrong! It is 'a lot' radical! But it is one of the reasons we have chosen the Celtic Way of Spirituality. I also realize that my explanation of this concept was quite succinct as well. When studied further, you will see it is a very thorough and well formed realization of the nature of man as part of the Nature of God. There are many other understandings that come into play in this as well and the depth of this is far beyond the scope of this original question. Perhaps in another discussion, after reading John O'Donohue yourself, we can discuss it further if you have a further interest.

So, his comment about 'possessing' our souls may have sounded a little 'off' to you, yet it was quite within the Celtic concept of the wholeness of all life. It would seem to me that he was not only a thorough researcher of the history of Celtic Christianity, he was on the Celtic Way himself! His knowledge came from a heart of understanding...

May God continue to bless all here!

Slan
Marty

Thanks, Marty. You have cleared some things up for me. I am always on the look out for political statements and jumped to the wrong the conclusion when the word "peace" was mentioned. That was foolish.

At any rate, I'm afraid what you're saying does not sound radical to me. I've read much more radical stuff than that!

I'm surprised by one statement you made: In Western (Roman) theology, we have been taught to suppress the negative and accentuate the positive so that we may serve God better and hopefully make it into eternity.

Could that be true? Maybe it is. As for myself, the word "hopefully" was never taught nor suggested to me. It's interesting to think that this may very well be what separates people in their beliefs of God.

My aim in coming here, however, was not to agree or disagree or enter into debates. I'm sorry if that disappoints anyone and I'm sorry that I kind of strayed from that with my last post. My aim was, and is, to gain a greater understanding of that Celtic Way and how it relates to people today. I certainly do adhere to some of it myself, but I'm not sure about everything. But that's okay. It's a journey.

I said before that I was not Catholic, and you told me you weren't either, but I'm striving to understand some of the Catholic faith and the spirituality of the Irish, Catholic or not. I'm not trying to convert. Although I'm always learning and growing, I'm confident I'm in the right place spiritually.

I think if the author of this piece is saying what you suggest he's saying, he could have used a word better than "possess". Perhaps "embrace" or accept. But then, I'll have to get the book you suggested to be sure. It's interesting that much of what you are saying fits with the book The Purpose Drive Life. But that's not too surprising. There's nothing new under the sun!

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Cindy,

Solomon got it right! "There's nothing new under the sun!" Was true then... is true today! I think however, the real credit goes to his 'Source' for the eternal truth of it...

As for Rick Warren's book, I use it weekly as part of my Sabbath devotionals. I too am amazed at how Celtic some of his concepts are! I wonder if he realizes it himself or is it rather, wisdom just cannot be owned by any one sect!?

As for my past, actually... I was raised Irish Catholic! (heheheh) That's a little 'sterner' than most and includes all sorts of 'mysteries'!!! But the one unifying theme of Catholicism is the dependence upon the Church for salvation. To separate yourself from her is tantamount to turning your back on God as well. As a young man I set out on my quest to find the reality of Christ and thankfully... he found me! Even as I ministered in a Pentecostal church for many years, I dealt with people who still weren't sure of their salvation or even God's love for them. Focusing on the 'negative' side of our personalities is quite common I have found.

As for debates, please, never hesitate to pose questions or raise an issue of disagreement. That's what we are here for! It is written that 'iron sharpens iron' and there is much to be learned from it. Even the 'lurkers' learn while listening! So, don't be afraid to 'have at it' anytime...
Thanks again for the post and your insights....

Slan
Marty

What is the Celtic Way of Spirituality? It appears not to be chruch associated. The use of the tterm "path" suggests something akin to Buddism.
Perhaps this is a cult?
Please reply plainly. So may times I get circular responses.

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Robert,

Thanks so much for your post, those are excellent questions you raised. Allow me to deal with the 'Buddhism' issue first. The eightfold path of both Mahayana and Hinhayana Buddhism still relies on 'works' (dharma), this is not the case here. We are all Christians! Without Christ as the center of our life we would all still be lost. We freely acknowledge that He is the only redemption for our souls and works are simply a means to please and glorify Him. We use the word 'path' simply because Celtic Christianity is a journey (quest) we undertake individually. It may be slightly different than the path others are on but we all are headed to Christ.

As I'm sure you are aware, once the Church was united. Today we live in the aftermath of all the fractures that have occurred over the centuries. We all come from various backgrounds and denominations (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) yet we all desire to walk the path Christ has for us to follow. The goal is the same, Christ, but our perspectives are different.
You will see on the web that there are organizations that call themselves 'Celtic Churches'. They are good places of worship but there is no unified Celtic Church any more. Rather, they are individual institutions from various denominations who have modified their worship style to include Celtic beliefs and practices into their services. Hence, you may find a Celtic Catholic Church, or a Celtic Episcopal Church, or a Celtic Orthodox Church. This is all fine and good! People need to worship God in a form they can relate to. Yet, rather than focusing on our differences, we choose to uplift the same ideals that our Celtic forbearers had towards Christ. The Celtic Church was part of the Early Church and therefore is a common denominator to all the forms of Christianity today.

I tend to be a little long-winded sometimes (30 years in a classroom!) and don't want to belabor a point so I will stop here. Your first question "What is the Celtic Way of Spirituality?" can be a topic of discussion for my next reply if you are still interested. I would love the chance to share it with you! Hopefully, the others here will share their thoughts and feelings about it as well.

Thanks again for your post and please feel free to both challenge and question us on any aspects you may disagree with. 'Iron sharpens iron' is a good saying for us all...

Slan
Marty

Blessings Robert,

Like Marty said, each of us are called to our own Paths. For me as a Lutheran, it simply allows me to stay focused within our liturgical style of worship. I see things differently as a CC then some people. When we sing hymns, I can really focus on those that mention God’s creation, which is a strong point in CC. We see God in all of Creation. Not so that we can worship nature (i.e. rock, wind, water, fire, ex.), but rather we can be with God always in all things. Case in point; the other morning I woke up with a heavy heart and a lot on my find, while outside walking the dog, I hear the first morning bird begin to sing. I immediately recalled the scripture that the bird does not worry about his next meal, so how much more does our Heavenly Father care about us over the bird. I knew then that God was with me and would take care of me.

As I work, I realize that God gave me my talents and therefore I honor Him with my work. Now I am not always there, but that is why this is a journey. I have my direction and goal; with Christ as the prize. There is nothing in the world that I don’t see God in. My family and I just went through Hurricane Katrina and we never lost sight of God’s loving hand in it all. We lost everything and He has allowed us to get it all back and then some. I have a better job, a better home, and a better place to raise my family. These are all things that I would have and could not have done had it not been for Katrina. Now I do not say that God did this to curse or bless curtain people, I simply realize that all things work for the good for those who love Christ Jesus.

As you can see, none of this is strange or out of the ordinary of the basic beliefs of the church , but my CC way of understanding allows me to stay focused to God’s basic plan and strip away all the material world to a basics of life. The church building and all the material things it is filled with are simple tools we use as an outward sign of God’s love. For me and other CCs we can stand in the middle of the woods, float in the ocean, walk through a field and God is still there. So even with out a building and even with out a Bible in our head, we know that we are with God and His written word is on our hearts.

IHHN,
Scotty

m/954 Robert said: The use of the tterm "path" suggests something akin to Buddism.

Consider this from Jeremiah 6:16:

This is what the LORD says:
       "Stand at the crossroads and look;
       ask for the ancient paths,
       ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
       and you will find rest for your souls.
      
Cindy
Author of Brigid of Ireland

Cindy,

WOW great find. I have not seen that before. I guess that is why it is the "LIVING WORD."

IHHN,
Scotty

I've just found this site and am interested in reading past postings about CC. Of all the religious expressions I've studied, this path is the one that resonates with my own spirit. I'm not from a Catholic background (actually came out of Methodism into a more evangelical movement, and have now found that to be too political in the extreme)so I find alot of the references to the RCC to be confusing, but I am trying. Thank you for the dialogue that happens here. It's a good learning tool.

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Melina,

And welcome to our sleepy little group! Thank you for you kind words and we would all definitely agree with your assertions about Celtic Christianity. As for being a Roman Catholic, that is not required. We all come from such various and divergent backgrounds! The thing that unites us all here is the love of Christ for each other. (that doesn't mean you have to like everyone here!). We are from Catholic (various groupings), Orthodox and many of the Protestant denominations. Some here prefer not to be associated with a particular church or denomination but have a strong interest in all things spiritual. So, regardless of your own background, please feel welcomed! Ta failte!.

Perhaps I have not been paying too much attention to what's going on in Evangelicalism but could you explain what RCC is? I'm not familiar with it. As for Celtic Christianity, I see it as going beyond traditional 'Church Christianity' into a more aggressive form of a personal devotional life. Too often in churches the emphasis is on maintaining the well being of the particular group. The Celts believed that to make a change in the world you must first make yourself like Christ and then live your life like according to His ways. We call this the Celtic Way of Spirituality. This passion that we all have may lead us to disagreements but the Love of Christ holds us all together. I find it refreshing! We are non-conformists striving to conform to the Christ!

Please feel free to introduce yourself to the group. As I mentioned, its been a bit sleepy around here lately (perhaps the 'Winter Doldrums' for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere!). We would love to hear 'your story'! How God led you to the Celtic Way is always a wonder for us all. So please feel free to share or question us as you will!

Thanks again for joining our little group. May the Lord bless you in your journey here...

Slan,
Marty

Hello. I am new to the concept of Celtic Christianity. I suppose that it is a common misconception that all Celts were pagan. My question pretains to the topic of the calender. Pagan Celts have a pagan calendar, so do Christian Celts have a Christian calendar, mapping out special holidays or rituals?

Thank You for your information

Mathuin

Welcome Melina and Mathuin,

I too would like to welcome you to our little cyber hearth. Things have been slow as of late, so it makes it even more of a blessing when we get strangers visiting. And I always see strangers as simply friends you have not met yet. So again I welcome you in the name of the Christ.

Melina, I can fully understand your frustration with the mainstream church. So many times the post modern church is more concerned about peoples feelings more so than their souls. And like you this was what drew me to the Celtic Way almost 10 years ago. While I am still very active in my local church (Lutheran), I find my center in the Celtic Way. For a long time I wanted to find a “Celtic Church” but soon realized that the Celtic Church was and is the Church without walls. At the inception of the Celtic Church is simply the Church that was in the Celtic Lands. So it was no different than the Early Church. I have found that by studying the Early Church and the Founding Fathers (pre 330 AD) and the Celtic Culture of the times, you can pretty much get an understanding of what the Celtic Church looked like. This was a time that before Rome officially made Christianity the official religion of Rome, thereby beginning the political movement of the Church. There is much more, but that will set the tone for what you have been called to.

Mathuin, the only thing that you may see as the official difference would be the dating of Easter. The Celtic Church followed the dating that the Orthodox Church now follows. Now that is a point of historical reference and not a canonical law that must be followed. But even with that being said, this was a major turning point of the early Celtic Church. It was at the Synod of Whitby in 664 AD. Here is a site that outlines the events of Whitby. http://www.wilfrid.com/Wilfrid_pilgrimage/Whitby_synod.htm

I have seen that some groups will celebrate the pagan high days, but IMHO this gets into blending a bit too much. While I realize that even our High Holy days of the Christian Church are blended with former pagan holidays they still have their base in Christ. The Celts were more about seeing everyday and every thing as a celebration of God’s love. They would have celebrated the sun rise and the sun set, the work and the play, life and death. Because all things are of God.

Sorry so long winded, I pray that God will use you in a great way to bless us not only here on the group, but for all eternity.

IHHN,
Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Mathuin,

And welcome here! Nice of you to post and rouse us from our slumber!!!
As for the pagans, yes, they have their cycle of the year as to most societies that I know of. But maybe we should look at the word 'pagans' first. This word tends to bring up images of strange rituals and incantations that harness the dark forces of nature for most people. Actually, the word has a far less sinister derivation. In the ancient world, as is true also today, there were two types of people, those who lived in the city and those who lived in the country side. It was always thought that those of the city (civilis) were the civilized (cultured) and those of the country (paganis) were not so civilized. So, yes, since the Celts built very few cities and preferred their own tuatha, they would be considered 'pagans' by most.

However, much of their theology and customs, lended itself very well for the reception of Christianity when it arrived in these lands. In fact, it is their awareness of Nature and the continual reliance upon God that has flavored Celtic Christianity to this day. We still hold many of their 'uncivilized' beliefs dearly to our own hearts. I also believe that Christ himself appreciates that about us! Do not confuse what I am saying, we are definitely Christians! But we have held onto the values and beliefs of our ancient ancestors.

As for Celtic Christian Calendars! Well, we celebrate the same Christian holidays as any other Christian! Some of us hold onto the observances of the Celtic calendar as well just as a reminder of the way Christ revealed Himself so long ago. The Celtic calendar celebrated LIFE! Reminding ourselves of the cycle of life is well within the bounds of Christian beliefs. As I mentioned in my previous post, we are all from varied backgrounds and have our own approaches to celebrations and rituals. However, the one thing that we are united on is that Christ is the center of our lives. We may be 'High' Church, 'Low' Church or even 'No' Church! But Christ is still the reason we call ourselves Christian.

I see that you have joined our mailing list so I will hope that you will remain with us for a while. We would love to learn more about you and what God has been doing in your life! Please feel free to share with us something about yourself. If I can help you with anything else please don't hesitate to ask... May God continue to illume you path...

Slan,
Marty

Just wanted to chip in here and say that I'm not sleeping. I am reading all the posts.

There seems to be a measure of fear among Christians in mainstream demoninations regarding things Celtic--as though we might be mixing in pagan, sinister, elements with our religion if we acknowledge our roots. This is just ignorance, however.

I agree with what Marty said. The ancient Celtic pagans did adapt easily to Christianity because of the beliefs they already held. The Celtic nations were not converted quickly, however. It took time. But as a result, Christianity endured.

Anyone reading Thomas Cahill's latest book: Mysteries of the Middle Ages, The Rise of Feminism, Science, and Art from the Cults of Catholic Europe? Not Celtic focused, but interesting when you are trying to understand the difference between Chrisitanity in the West and in the East.
(Leave it to me to bring up a book!)

Cindy
Author of Brigid of Ireland

Hey Cindy,

"Leave it to me to bring up a book!)" Worry not! Your books keep us from total ignorance!!!

Slan,
Marty

Thank you Martin, Cindy, and Scotty for your insight. A few other questions that I have are: Do CCs have their own "denomination" or do you go to any other church (Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, etc). Also, I am an American (and a Kentuckian :D), so my question is more straightforward than the past, what celebrations, names also please, do YOU persoanlly celebrate? I am VERY interested in becoming a CC if that is different than any other Christian or simply just another denomination, so, thank you for stomaching my ignorance.

Thank You

Mathuin

Mathuin,

I belong to a United Methodist church, and have most all my life. I don't abide by all my denomination's stances, but I support my local church (and I don't agree with all of them, either!) We should all be united in Christ, and not forget that. I live up north, by the way, in Ohio.

I study Celtic Christianity and write about it. I'm not an expert, but I'm learning!

I celebrate the church's holidays, but I have a special interest in St. Brigid's Day, because of my book.

The others will have more insight to answer your questions, I'm sure!

Cindy
(who should be working, but this is more fun at the moment!)

Greetings Mathuin,

Questions are honored here!!! So please always 'honor' us with them!
For all intents and purposes the 'Celtic Church' (a branch of the Early Western church) ended in 664 A.D. You will see some places claiming to be a true Celtic Church but most likely they have 'celticized' a denominational church. Celtic Christianity, however, lived on in the hearts and minds of the people long after Rome assumed control over the west. It is a long story of the struggles of the Early Church and I'm not sure that is what you are asking, so I'll stop here on that issue until you ask further.
Since we do not have a Church of our own, most of us worship and fellowship in whatever local assemblies that were part of our previous tradition. As Scotty mentioned, he is in the Lutheran Church. I still occasionally fellowship in a Pentecostal Church. Fr Jim is an Orthodox priest. It matters little to us where we fellowship, that's God's choice for our lives. Our Celtic Way will travel with us where ever He leads us in the future. It is not a separate denomination, it is a choice we have made to serve Christ according to the ways of our ancestors - the Early Christians in the Celtic lands!

Kentucky is pretty solidly 'Bible Belt' so I will assume that is your past. Our theology is almost 100% compatible with yours (except for a few areas). But our thinking goes beyond the 'traditional' perception of the Bible. We are not bound by the denominational precepts that come with certain memberships. As Scotty mentioned, we are a 'Church without walls'! We see our responsibility to love ALL of God's creation and His children because He is the Source of all life!

As for the Celtic Cycle, I still honor the four major points of the year. I light a candle and spend time with the Lord privately on Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine and Lugnadsah. I was raised Irish Catholic! These have always been part of my heritage as much as the 'little people'! But all things are done by us "for the glory of God". My personal style of worship is not going to bring His Light into the world... He will! I am simply called to serve Him. That was the message of the first Christians. That was the message the Celtic Saints brought back to Europe during those Dark Ages! All things created by Him are an icon of Him to be studied and reverenced! There! That's the heart of Celtic Christianity!

As Cindy has just pointed out, we all have complaints about the churches in our backgrounds. But the Lord would still have us minister there. They are still His children who are in need of His light. It may seem difficult to consider your Church as a mission field but that's what it is to us. Not that we are looking for the numbers... we just want His light to touch them so they may grow in Him as well. That is the Quest! That is our Path! So... if you heart is leaning towards Celtic Christianity... perhaps He has already called your name!? None of us were raised this way, yet we all felt 'at home' when we got here!

Celtic Christianity is the last vestige of the Early Church. They had passion! They reached out to all peoples! They lived closely, intimately with Christ! They were willing to be lead and used by Him for any thing He needed them to do! To my way of thinking, this is just what the rest of God's Church needs today as well. Who knows why? Perhaps it is to bring about a major change in the Church and Western society! Perhaps it is just to draw us closer in our own lives to Him! It matters little to us... we just want to serve! If that is your true heart too... then welcome sister. We will not lead you... simply walk beside you. The Quest of discovering Christ's handwork within you is your own. We will only share what He has taught us about ourselves, Himself and the world around us.

There are many good books out for you to read. If you're serious about learning, we can all suggest some for your consideration. Scholarship was always high on the list of priorities for the Celts. So it is with us as well here. So... Welcome! (Ta failte!)(no.. Irish is not a prerequisite for CC!) Please allow us to help you in any way we can. Remember, the only stupid questions are those which remain unasked!
May God increase His light within your heart this day...

Slan,(bye)
Marty

Dear Cindy,

"(who should be working, but this is more fun at the moment!)" (hehehe) I'm glad to be of service!

Slan

Well, here I am again. It's vacation week anyway, right?

Marty,
Mind if I jump in on your post a minute?
<<It may seem difficult to consider your Church as a
mission field but that's what it is to us. Not that we are
looking for the numbers... we just want His light to touch them
so they may grow in Him as well.>>

Would you just clairfy for me what you mean here about the numbers?
Thanks.
Cindy

Hey Cindy,

Feel free to 'jump in' anytime! Glad for the input!

What I meant about the numbers is an issue with many Churches today. Things are EXPENSIVE!! So it is with all churches as well. The only way they can increase the giving (even at 10%) is to increase the numbers. The more people... the more money. Simple equation of mega-churches everywhere!
For a number of years I served as an Elder in my Church. I loved the ministry... hated the 'hard facts' of Church government. When money became tight... it was time for a 'revival' meeting. 'Trusting God to provide' was never a reality to the Trustees who sat on the Church Board with me. The church did grow... for a while. People are being blessed there still but growth is not happening. It is a shame! The same shame that I see in the Old Testament. The nation of Israel was only as devout as their current king. As the king went, so goes Israel. As the leadership goes... so go the congregations!

Celtic Christianity's focus is not on Church growth. It is not about the numbers! Perhaps this is the real reason there is no Celtic Church today!!! Our only concern is the way we learn to die to ourselves so 'Christ may live in us'! (Tozer) That gives us a freedom to speak and act according to the Light He has put within us. There is no other purpose but to shine that light so other might see again. When Christ spoke to Peter "upon this truth you shall build my church", there wasn't a mention of marble, sound systems or satellite feeds! Simply that Christ was the Savior of us all!
Don't get me wrong... I'm not opposed to wealth. It enables many more to share in that light but it shouldn't be the 'first concern'. Numbers is what controls the wealth! Thanks for asking for a clarification...
Slan
Marty

Marty,

I hope we don't lose the new people in this, but I have a little bit more jumping in to do. "It's not about the numbers!" is a phrase I hear church people saying all the time. It seems to be a reaction to the mega church movement. I appreciate your explanation, and I see what you are saying. You have a good point.

But, the Bible does mention numbers, doesn't it? Feeding of the five thousand, for example. And in Acts about the early church adding to its numbers daily.

We are commanded by Jesus to go into all the world. I guess my point is that saying "it's not about the numbers" should not be an excuse to keep the church an exclusive club. I don't think you are suggesting that, but it is in fact what ends up happening all too often.

I've been studying the early Irish monks who were evangelical. But they weren't trying to rope people in. They went out in groups of 12 (gee, I wonder where they got that idea!) and ministered to people where they were. They were active, not passive. They were fishers of men, but perhaps only because they were always seeking God themselves. Ah ha! Maybe I'm catching on!

Hey Cindy,

Sin e! That's it! That's what its all about!! Yes, Christ wants us to take His light to all His children! But the focus of our ministry is on Him... not the number of people it takes to support a ministry.

The Celtic Saints prayed when they had needs. They waited for Him to provide. It is in our need that intimacy grows! When He blesses us we can feel the Love in His Provision. In the hardships of this life we learn of our need for Him. Fundraising and revival meetings does none of that...
As for the Church being an 'exclusive club', well... I've seen that too! Historically, the Roman Church was the one who only ministered in the city. The pagani were just too poor and stupid to understand the fine points of their theology! The Roman mission to Ireland was a failure in many ways because of this attitude. At least St Patrick knew the Irish and their culture. He knew how the clans were organized and he had some success there. Later, there was greater success as some of his followers ministered among the Irish because they were of the same background.

Too often we look at the clothes and the hair and the homes and find them to 'be found wanting'! Unfortunately, we tend to surround ourselves with those of like mind and status and discard the rest. We are more 'comfortable' when we are with people 'just like us'. Then we are more secure in our beliefs! After all... everyone else believes it too! Celtic Christianity teaches us to find the 'Light of Christ' in each person. To see that spark of His Presence within. All of us are icons of His handiwork! Sometimes... we can't even see Him in ourselves, so how will we ever see Him in others. That is why the First Harmony must begin within ourselves. When we discover His actual presence there within... we can believe!

Okay... now I'm off topic! Sorry! (you can always tell a teacher...) Well, thanks for all your input today. I think it may have helped us all... May the Lord of Light continue to illumine ours paths this day...

Slan
Marty

<<Okay... now I'm off topic! Sorry! (you can always tell a
teacher...)>>

No, no, no. It helps. Thanks! I thought I understood it, and I did in a way, but I just had a light bulb moment. Know what I mean?

And I am a former teacher, and forever I hope, a learner!

Thanks.
Cindy

Hey Cindy,

"And I am a former teacher," Well, I guess you never heard the rest of the saying! It goes like this - "You can always tell a teacher... but not much!" (hehehe) Guilty as charged! Sorry...

Slan

Edited by author 11-20-2006 07:21 PM
FYI: I am a guy. So, is anyone here actually directly from Ireland? Anyway, slightly off topic, can anyone here teach me Gaelic? I have always had a desire to learn Gaelic. Also, are there any of the indirectly mentioned books located at the library? I mean, it's impossible to know exactly, but just wondering. Marty, what, in detail, are the four rituals that you spoke of. As for my denominational background, I was raised Baptist, but then when I transferred churchs, I adapted the beliefs of the Pentecostal (ie: The Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the Gifts of the Spirit). I feel like I want to become a Celtic Christian, but I just need more information. Help?

Greetings Mathuin,

Gaelic... hmmm... are you sure? I took it for a year and already I have 10,000 years off in Purgatory! It is a beautiful language, not so much for its pronunciation but for the logic of its expression. It is a difficult language, though. There are many books, CD's and websites that will help you also. To do it right though, you should be part of a class. I went to a local AOH (Ancient Order of Hibernians)(don't tell them your Protestant, its a Catholic organization and they're still not over 'the Troubles'). They are usually free but not offered in every AOH. If you really need some help, I'll be glad to offer the little that I remember.

The books that I would recommend to you I consider essential in any CC library.
Anam Cara, A Book of Celtic Wisdom by John O'Donohue - The Celtic mindset
Listening for the Heartbeat of God by J. Philip Newell - an overview of Celtic Christianity
Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell - Morning and Night prayers
You many find them in your local library but I think you may want to keep these for yourself. Anam Cara is very difficult to get through because it is so challenging to your way of seeing things. I loved it (still read it) but it took me over a year to finish it! Celtic Benediction is a daily devotional and one that you will use weekly. The theology in each prayer is what I enjoy the most. There are several other good Celtic writers out there but be careful of those who try to 'blend in' ideas from their own fantasy. The truth is fascinating enough! These three books I purchased in quantity a few years back to give to those seeking to start out on the Celtic Way. If you would like a copy of each you can contact me at mfjfarrell@yahoo.com.

In my previous post I spoke of the Four Festivals of the Celtic Cycle. They were times that the clans could gather together and celebrate the cycle of life. Mostly, the celebration was agrarian in nature but I use them to celebrate the cycle of life that God put into all life, ours, nature, all the deeds we endeavor to do! Here's my perspective on it...
Samhain (saw-wen) - New Year - a time of 'fallowness' to replenish ourselves in Him (November 1st)
Imbolc (im-bolk) - Cleansing - a time for preparing for the promise of the coming Spring (Feb 1st)
Beltine (bel-chin-na) - May Day - the coming, replenishment of life after 6 months of death (May 1st)
Lughnasadh (loo-na-sa) - Harvest time - reaping the rewards of the harvest, a time of celebration (Aug 1st)

As you can see, these all apply to the daily cycle of life we all go through. Whether it is our personal growth, family issues, job development or just plain relationships, everything has its own cycle of life. The point in living is to learn to be part of God's cycle so we can enjoy His bounty and provision. At these holidays, I simply reflect on that fact and look at all that God has done for me in the past year. It helps keep things in perspective. So, its not so much a ritual as a reflection...(but I still like the candles)

Becoming a Celtic Christian? Sorry, I can't help you there! Your heart is your guide... listen to it!! God left us with that 'still small voice' for a reason... so He could teach us and lead us where He wants us. If you've ever learned anything, you already know that. That is why you are searching... He led you here! We don't have a ritual for you to do. There is no membership! It simply is what you are! He already put it in you...
I hope I have gotten to all the points you asked sufficiently well enough to get you started. Sometimes I can be a bit obtuse. As you are learning, never hesitate to ask whatever you need to know. There are many people here who can help you and share their lives with you too. Please know that you are welcome here as a brother/sister on the same road we all travel.
May the most you expect be the least you receive...

Slan,
Marty

Thank you so much, Martin. Are you actually from Ireland, directly? Also, you said there was no ritual or ceremony to do to become a CC, so if I decide to profess CC then are there any manditory things to do AFTER I have professed? Any manditory ceremonies or ways of life or rememberances? Please, ANYTHING!!! I want to be the best CC as possible.

On the side, I have decided to profess or "convert" or whatever you call it. :) So, any beginners knowledge is MUCH NEEDED!!!

Thank you

PS I am a GUY.............lol

Mathuin,

I would say that many early Celtic Christian worship would have looked like the "Stowe" Missal as outlined on http://celticchristianity.org/. They are an Orthodox faith and VERY rigid in their theology. You can stroll through their web site to get an idea of the nature of the Celtic Way through the eyes of an Orthodox faith. You can also begin to memorize all 150 Psalms, which was a requirement to the early Celtic monks. We always need to keep in mind that the early convert would have been Druids and therefore the strict habits of oral Traditions and other bardic habits would have been part of their new found Faith in the Holt Three in One.

It is interesting that you ask about Ireland. None of us are in Ireland and many of us have never even been to Ireland. I did at one time open a Celtic Christian E-group in Ireland via MSN and Yahoo. I had it open for 6 months and had no members. It is simply because people in the Celtic Lands see themselves as simply Christian and not Celtic Christians, which in reality would have been the case for the Early Church. They simply were.

The books Marty post will give you the tools needed to begin your walk. It will be between you and God and those of whom God puts in your path as to what you do and how you do it. It may very well be as outlined in the Stowe Missal or it may be something more contemporary as to singing Celtic Hymns and walking a Labyrinth. The Celtic Way is so simple it is hard. We in the post modern world want a cookie cutter church that we can just go to and be. It took me almost 8 years to fully come to grips with what the Celtic Way really was. It is very personal and very private. But the deeper it gets the more open you become to sharing it with others. While that may seem a bit opposing one another it is the very essence of ones walk with Christ. The closer you get to the Cross the closer you get to Him and the more time you spend alone with Him the more you become transformed in His likeness.

Forgive me I am beginning to lose sight of he keys and morning comes early. I bid you all a blessed evening until our Lord brings us together again.

Scotty

Dear in Christ, Melina and Mathuin--

Croesawiad! (Welcome!) Bendithiol! (God bless you!)

As Marty and Scotty said, the Faith of the Celtic
Church was simply the Faith of the whole Church.

As for things pagan, there are two definitions: one
is "pagan" as in "pagano," or "rural dweller" and
the other is "pagan religion," or "wicce pagani,"
the "wisdom of the rural people."

We often refer to religions other than Christian or
Jewish as "pagan" because they all were pretty much
alike: pantheons of "gods" and "goddesses," their
behavior and characteristics inferred from those of
human rulers and from the realms they were supposed to
rule.

Actually, paganism is the anthropomorphization of
the forces of nature, hoping that by naming them and
according them characteristics,we will more easily be
able to form a spiritual relationship with them and
live in some manner of harmony with them. Even,
through imposition of imagination and will, in some
measure control them.

God introduced Himself to a world which had long been
without Him, and people had, for the first time since
the Fall, the opportunity to relate not to the
creation but to the Creator.

The coming of Jesus gave us the opportunity not just
to relate to, but to have a lively and active Personal
relationship with, the Living God Who Is.

The Celtic religion, like other pre-Christian
religions, was pantheistic. Cernunnos the Hunter
and Andred the Mother inspired us to valor and
nurture. Lugh of the Sacred Oak reminded us of the
virtues of strength and stability, Issu the Wise
called us to worship and contemplate. The Unknown
God promised to reveal Himself and His Name one day.

Human sacrifice was commonplace in the Northern
regions: one didn't simply kill one's enemies,
one sacrificed them to the gods. Done ritually, one's
army and tribe gained their power and virtue (nobody,
apparently, stopped to think that these are the guys
who lost...). The Celtic Tribes had their origin in
what is now Austria, and established a "second home"
in Switzerland. The Great Migration began abvout 2500
years ago, and the Celts (Galli/Gauls/Gaels)
established settlements throughout what is now Europe
(Gaul and Gallia) as far north as Austro-Hungary
and Ukrainian Galicia, and as far east as Galatia
in Asia Minor.

Julus Caesar engaged the Celtic tribes in battle,
and was so fascinated by them and their culture he
had his scholars research them and their customs and
add them to his histories. So, we know that as of
the 50's BC, there was no record of human sacrifice
on the part of the Gauli.

Human sacrifice was practiced by the Pretanni, Wessex
and early Manx peoples. The Galli crossed the Channel
and settled these areas, subduing their inhabitants.
This may account for the rumors of Celtic human
sacrifices in Britain. The huge "wicker men" in which
huge numbers of enemies were burned alive, were
not Celtic but pre-Celtic Manx and Wessex.

So, we can assume that by the time the Iberian
Galicians sailed to Erin and the Galli crossed the
Channel into Pretannia, the Druidic religion was
long rid of human sacrifice.

Indeed, the knowledge of it that survives portrays the
Druidic faith as immersed in nature mysticism,
scholarship and the framing and administrration of
law.

The ideal seems to have been one of a moral (defined a
little differenty than we define it) and
valiant people, courteous to each other, hospitable to
strangers and overwhelmingly lethal in battle, who
revered learning and valued history, tradition and
fairness.

These social attributes made the Celts globe-
girdling seafarers, successful international traders
and diplomats and valued, highly-paid military
mercenaries. They got along with everyone but each
other, their intertribal squabbles being the reason
Vercingetorix did not after all conquer the Romans.

In about 38 AD, Joseph of Arimathea and a small
band of Christians fled Jerusalem, and Roman and
Jewish persecution, to Glastonbury. Joseph, a tin
merchant, was well-known in the tin-mining center of
Cornwall and was a friend of King Aviragus and his
chief Druid, Drucius.

Joseph and his followers were given about 1500 acres
of land in Glaeston (Glastonbury), and arguably the
first
above-ground Christian church building was built,
probably of wattle and daub.

Joseph revealed to the Druids the Name and Character
of the Unknown God, thus fulfilling their prophecy.

Where the Druids worshiped outdoors, the Christians
worshiped in a temple. Where the Druids indulged in
fertility rites, the Christians were chaste. The
Druids had their "thin places" between here and the
"otherworld," which can bes be identified as the
"Astral Plane," which is basically earthbound.
The Christian temple was and is the Thin Place between
earth and Heaven itself, and isnat the same time an
icon of the fact that the "natural" and
"supernatural" are simply two faces of the same
"all that is, visible and invisible."

Christian Orthodoxy sees all of creation as sacred:
an icon of the Character and Activity of God. It was
this that resonated with the Celts, and which caused
the Faith to sweep up the clan chain from the Great
Migration until, by the end of the Second Century,
there were Christian settlements all the way from
Ireland to Austria.

The Faith they shared and taught was the same Faith
the rest of the Church shared and taught. That same
Faith can be found today, in the Orthodox Churches.

Just an historical note: there was no such thing as an
identifiable "Roman Catholic Church" until the
Frankish dominance of Rome was cemented in 800 AD,
with Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire. The
division would not become official until 1054,
although it would have its effect in the Celtic lands
earlier, in about 1000AD, when William the Conqueror
(also known as William the Bastard) slaughtered what
was left of rhe Celtic Church in a concentrated
genocidal effort along the Scottish Borderlands, where
they had fled for refuge.

There's a lot of nonsense about the Celtic Church:
fairy tales about female priests and bishops
(20th-Century Modernist/feminist wish-fulfillment);
notions that they were half-pagan and held their
Liturgies outside in Druid oak groves (new-age
wish fulfillment) or that they were great theological
rebels who "courageously" held to heterodox beliefs
(immature kid wish-fulfillment).

The Christian Faith is the most powerful force on
earth. That's why we humans, desiring at root our
own way, keep trying to dilute it, to adapt it to
our own fads, fancies and standards. God has the right
to tell us what to do. We resent that. We
prefer a religion where we can tell ourselves what to
do, and call it "The Holy Spirit." even if it
disagrees with the ancient teachings of the Church.

Reading about Patrick, Colum Cille, Columbanus,
Brendan, Brigit, David of Wales and all the rest,
we find they had no use for such attitudes.

All we really have in answer to the Ancient Faith
is, "Yeah, but I want to do it this way." We all
do that, and it is that sort of thing our spiritual
Ancestors in the Celtic Church call us to flee.

Christianity is not a matter of finding a way to
place our preferences within the context of following
Jesus. It is the matter of turning our lives over to
Jesus, and permitting the Holy Spirit to change our
preferences, so that we prefer the way spelled out
by the Church of the first five centuries.

Please forgive the foolish ramblings of your
brother in Christ,

Fr. Jim <><

unworthy priest
Community of the Holy Spirit-UAOC




 
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Father Jim,

Well stated my brother. Perhaps overstated, but well stated none the less ;-)

you said:
Christianity is not a matter of finding a way to
place our preferences within the context of following
Jesus. It is the matter of turning our lives over to
Jesus, and permitting the Holy Spirit to change our
preferences, so that we prefer the way spelled out
by the Church of the first five centuries.

I like that. Even I many times try and create some sort of Tolkien like faith by opening my minds eye to the fantasy images of Tolkien. While this may allow me to escape to another world in my meditation, it is not reality and can not be lived out in faith. The faith of the Celts was the faith of the cross and we always need to keep that in the forefront of our minds eye. That is reality not fantasy.

Good to see you posting again old friend. It is always a joy.

IHHN,
Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Melina,

We are having some good discussions lately that I think you could use. I see that you are not signed in to receive our postings! Could I suggest that if you are still interested, you might want to 'Subscribe' on the web page. And please jump in anytime! We have all heard each other and would appreciate any new voice...

Hey Mathuin,

Please don't convert to Celtic Christianity! I would rather see you commit your life to Christ! The Celtic Way is a path we follow in order to grow and serve Him. It is a system of beliefs we hold that lead us into a closer fellowship with Him. Celtic Christianity is not a 'new' religion. As Fr Jim mentioned also, it is a very old form of worship. Our goal is to make our lives a living prayer or an epistle.

No, I'm not from Ireland, I was born here in the States (NY - Long Island) but my grand parents were from Cork, Mayo and Galway! And yes.. at times you can still here my brogue! If you want to be the best Celtic Christian you can possibly be... then prayer is what you need. The one thing the Celts did was continual prayer! This helped them (and us) focus on Christ in every aspect of our lives.

In additions to prayer... Learn! "Study to show yourself approved!" The Celts were scholars and gladly took the Word with them where ever they went. Study their lives as well as the life of the Early Church. This was the world they knew and had to deal with. As you learn to see the world the way they did (as Christ does) it will transform you and your response to it.
This is a journey that we are all on. It will take you a life time to complete! But by the time you are the perfect Celtic Christian.. God will not be such a stranger to you! Keep your heart and your mind open to Him and He will shape you way...

As for being a man or a women... it mattered little to the Celts. Both were fearsome warriors both on the field of battle and in their prayer rooms! It was one of the few early civilizations where women had rights equal to the men. St Brigid is a fine example of a Celtic woman! But if I have offended you in any way by using the wrong gender, please accept my apology. I do not recall assuming either of you and it matters little to me. So, my brother, please be welcomed!

Hey Fr Jim,

Good to see you back posting! You've come back at a fortuitous time...
May God grant us the increase to grow closer to Him this day...

Slan,
Marty

I was just thinking a bit more about the Celtic Way and about it being a path more so than a denomination. I think we see a valid reason as to why many of us feel that the Celtic Way could not and should not become a denomination.

By no slight to those involved, I think we see that by creating a “denomination” based on a set of theological beliefs, the politics of man made intuitions comes in play, such as we have seen in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. At one time in history both catholic (unified) and orthodox (conventional consistent to the founding fathers) was the basis of the Christian Way. Now we have the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and several others saying the say creed; “one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church…” and yet none of them agree with one another. IMHO this is a total mockery of Jesus’ teachings.

Just recently we heard the new Anglican Bishop confess that Jesus may not be the only way. And while the Lutheran Church is in “fully communion” with the Anglican Church, NOTHING was said in protest of the statement. Silence is acceptance as far as I am concerned. At one time the Church acted in one accord, now there is no standard in which one can call them selves “Christian”. Are we so far removed from the origin of our faith that no one can speak on behalf of the Truth as it is understood in the world? The World Council of Churches, the Southern Baptist Convention, all the hundreds of other syndical conventions is little more than governmental maneuvering within those denominations leaders.

I find it interesting that we here in the US look upon our government as Godless, but yet we are hated by the Muslims and viewed as a Christian nation and is thereby an enemy of the faith. So as far as I am concerned I hope the Celtic Way never becomes recognized as a denomination.

IHHN,
Scotty

Scotty makes some great points. I wonder about this, though:

At one time the Church acted in one accord

Paul certainly spent a lot of time in the New Testament trying to get churches to settle their differences and maintain unity. Has anyone read C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters? He makes a good point that Satan uses the church's lack of unity to his advantage.

The Celtic Church wasn't perfect because humans are not perfect. I don't know if it's possible to have a church on earth that acts in one accord, but it would be good to aim for that! We do seem to be farther from that than ever.

Cindy

Ah yes the old Screw tape letters. Love it! I think you hit it on the head Cindy. It can not be here on earth that is why the CC has to be in our hearts. Than when our hearts conform to the likeness of Christ, we act in one accord.

Edited by author 11-21-2006 04:37 PM
Thank you! I do have one question. Doesnt' St. Brigid's Day, or whatever, have something to do with the druid diety Brighid or something like that? Oh, Cindy, how much is your book? Oh how I want one!! Also, do CC hold Celtic myths high? (ie: Leprechauns, Fairies, Pookas, etc). Also, Fr Jim, you mentioned the Sacred Oak, the Mother, and the Hunter. Are those important to me beginning on the Celtic Christian way?

Mathuin You asked:
Doesn’t St. Brigid's Day, or whatever, have something to do with the druid diety Brighid

Because of the legendary quality of the earliest accounts of Saint Brigid, there is debate among many scholars and even faithful Christians as to the literal historicity of her life. Some insist that Brigid the goddess was made a saint simply to convert Celtic pagans to Christianity, although most historians say that she was a real person whose life was embellished by imaginative hagiographers. Others point to the relic of her head, which Portuguese pilgrims took from her shrine at Downpatrick and brought back to their homeland some time in the 15th Century; the relic now resides in a chapel consecrated to its veneration at Lumier.
A later vita states that upon reaching maturity, she vexed her father by being overly generous to the poor and needy with his milk, butter, and flour. Finally, she gave away his jewel-encrusted sword to a leper. At this point, it was decided that her disposition was best suited for a nun and she was sent to a convent. The legend does not preserve when or how her hitherto pagan father became amenable to such acts. Other tales likewise exist, and the only agreement between the various stories is that a girl was born to an Irish king named Dubhtach and that her name was Brigid.
Around 470 Brigid founded a Christian double monastery, of nuns and monks, at Kildare (Cill-Dara). Either she converted the pagan sanctuary of Cill Dara or built on unused ground nearby, depending upon the particular story consulted. She founded the scriptorium at the monastery where the famous illuminated manuscript the Book of Kildare was created. She died at Kildare on February 1 and is buried at Downpatrick with St. Columcille and St. Patrick, with whom she is co-patron of Ireland.

You asked:
Also, do CC hold Celtic myths high? (ie: Leprechauns, Fairies, Pookas, etc)

Without question or debate; No. These are just as you stated; myths. Now many stories such as St. Patrick turning into a dear to elude his captures, they are wonderful children’s myths, there is no basis of fact in it at all. To get a full understanding of the Celtic Church again you have to study the Early Church Fathers. Here is a good sight to check out. Their products are great and the prices are with in anyone’s budget. http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/index.html

Scotty

There was little that was written down in 5th century Ireland when Brigid was born. There are no writings of Brigid that exist, unlike Patrick. The first record of her life was written about 100 years after she died. Oral storytelling was how stories were handed down. The debate continues over whether or not she was a real person. It's very likely that she was, and named for a popular goddess. It's impossible, however, to separate legend from myth. That's one reason why I enjoyed writing fiction about her based on the legends. It's all my interpretation. You can find my book on amazon for around $11. Also on Amazon I have a plog and you can read my thoughts. In addition, the book has a site: http://www.brigidofireland.com

I plan to continue writing fiction based on legends surrounding ancient Irish saints. They are fiction, but from a Christian view.

Hey Cindy, how can we get a signed copy?

Scotty

I am currently out of stock. The best thing to do would be to order it and have it mailed to me. Then I'll sign it and return it to you. I'll take care of the postage to mail it back to you.. Have it sent here:

Cindy Thomson
PO Box 298
Pataskala, OH 43062

And email me your address: cindy@brigidofireland.com. Be sure to tell me if you want it personalized and how.

Thanks!

Oh, short of doing all that, you could send me a postage paid envelope and I'll send you a signed bookplate. Just another option!

Ok, thank you Cndy. Also, what do I need to start doing, I know learning 150 verses and remember the four holidays, but is that it once I profess to be a CC?

Yikes! Someone else might want to answer this. For me, I just study the Celtic way and pray about it, and try to learn from those who went before me. Like the others have said, it's not its own religion, it's following Christ. So confessing Christ as Savior and ruler of your life is what is paramount. It's not about a certain formula you follow. That begins to sound like one is trying to earn one's salvation and that can't be done. It doesn't matter how many Psalms you memorize, you can't do enough. But, it is a FREE gift from God.

I would just caution you not to begin to worship the idea of Celtic Christianity. Worship God.

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Good morning Mathuin,

About how to be a good Celtic Christian... let me give you so great advice! "...it's not its own religion, it's following Christ. So confessing Christ as Savior and ruler of your life is what is paramount. It's not about a certain formula you follow. That begins to sound like one is trying to earn one's salvation and that can't be done. It doesn't matter how many Psalms you memorize, you can't do enough. But, it is a FREE gift from God.
I would just caution you not to begin to worship the idea of Celtic Christianity. Worship God." I can't say it any better!

Cindy, please forgive the plagiarism, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! Thank you...

May the Lord of Bounty be with us all tomorrow! May He increase our joy ... and not our waistlines!

Slan,
Marty

I guess my Psalm reverence in #979 over shadowed everything else we have been saying. CC is not like joining the Masons or some sort of ancient religious order. If you are already a Christian, than you have everything. The only thing CC is going to do is strip it down to the bear basics. CC is the Early Church in the Celtic lands. The faith is no different. What is different than what we see today in the post modern Romanized Church is it is free from materialism and institutional control.

I would suggest you read up on some of the Celtic Saints. It will give you a good idea as to how they thought, which gets back to the fact that CC is in your heart (mind). It is more about how you look at things more so than how you look.
You might want to check out our other site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celtic_Church/?yguid=256421700
Marty and I have archived a lot of information in the links section to help you weed you a lot of misinformation that is out there on the net. I will say you are on the right track in the fact that you are seeking the Truth. And that my brother is your first step.

Scotty

I also wanted to add this. It pertains to the issue of trying to be more than what we are to obtain God's love. Be simple and be you and God will do the rest.

Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of
God —1 Corinthians 10:31

About this cover
Beware of allowing yourself to think that the shallow aspects of
life are not ordained by God; they are ordained by Him equally as
much as the profound. We sometimes refuse to be shallow, not out of
our deep devotion to God but because we wish to impress other people
with the fact that we are not shallow. This is a sure sign of
spiritual pride. We must be careful, for this is how contempt for
others is produced in our lives. And it causes us to be a walking
rebuke to other people because they are more shallow than we are.
Beware of posing as a profound person— God became a baby.

To be shallow is not a sign of being sinful, nor is shallowness an
indication that there is no depth to your life at all— the ocean has
a shore. Even the shallow things of life, such as eating and
drinking, walking and talking, are ordained by God. These are all
things our Lord did. He did them as the Son of God, and He said, "A
disciple is not above his teacher . . ." ( Matthew 10:24 ).

We are safeguarded by the shallow things of life. We have to live
the surface, commonsense life in a commonsense way. Then when God
gives us the deeper things, they are obviously separated from the
shallow concerns. Never show the depth of your life to anyone but
God. We are so nauseatingly serious, so desperately interested in
our own character and reputation, we refuse to behave like
Christians in the shallow concerns of life.

Make a determination to take no one seriously except God. You may
find that the first person you must be the most critical with, as
being the greatest fraud you have ever known, is yourself.

Hello everyone! -some of you know me, for you that dont I'm Gina, i have been studying Celtic and Christianity in general for about a year now (i called myself a christian for almost my whole life, but i only really started looking at it in the last year).

Mathuin,

you sound like i did a little bit when i first came back to Christianity. i had been raised in a Baptist background as well, and in most SBC's they teach you that Christianity is a formual. and if that is how you were raised thinking (that if i do X GOD will do Y) it's hard to break that habit.

but i learned a wonderful and terribly hard lesson a few days ago. you dont become a Christian (Celtic or otherwise) to better yourself, or to wash away your sins, or to fill yourself with the Spirit. take a look at those phrases, the key word in there is "you". christianity isnt about us. it's about GOD. one becomes a christian by loving GOD more than yourself. once you truely love Him with everything that you are, and you realize that it is ALL about Him, the other things fall into place-i.e. sins washed away, being filled with the Spirit, joy, etc.

scotty introduced me to (or i believe it was scotty, it may have been my buddy mike on another Celtic board or Marty--it was quite a while ago) Utmost for His Highest. and it has the best daily devotionals (at least i think so!) it has made a fantastic learning tool for me. it may help you see all this in a different light.

i think alot of people are at first drawn to Celtic Christianity, b/c they want to feel a part of something- like a club, or they see Celtic as something mystical and they think that mysic-hoobla is going to draw them closer to GOD (of course Hollywood is doing the same thing with Kabbalah). but again, simply living your life with the main purpose of serving GOD is what Celtic is all about (indeed what Christianity was meant to be about before man's politics were involved)

i will pray for your journey. believe me, i am still learning so much about this. (think of Celtic as the glasses you put on to read the Bible and look at the world- it just helps you see things in a different perspective).

Greetings Gina,

And welcome to our little group here! It is good to have you join us. If you would like to be part of the dialogue here on a regular basis please 'Subscribe' so you will receive the postings in the future. We would be blessed for having you...

As for being a novice... well... I liked your "think of Celtic as the glasses you put on to read the Bible and look at the world" so much that Scotty and I are going to promote you to Novice 1st class! You have a very good grasp on the concepts we have bee sharing with both HCN and CCS. Congratulations on your progress and your ability to explain yourself so well!

May your stay here be long and prosperous...

Slan
Marty

my thanks Marty!

i had actually used that to try to explain CC to my husband. i think he got it. i told him it's almost like the way Republicans or Democrats are, it's not a religion, but it colors the way you look at your faith. (it worked since elections were just around the corner then)

CC has really helped to simplify my faith and deepen it at the same time. not to mention that anyone with Irish/British/Germanic backgrounds likes to feel that much more connected to their ancestors. :)

Hi, Mathuin and all--

Wow! What a fantastic group of people, this is!

It is very rare that you find suchn a consistently
serious conversation about following Chruist among
such nice, healthy people! Praise the Lord!

Now, if I have offended anyone's humility, please
write and let me know, then forgive me. You'll have
to trust me that I did the prostrations :-)|+ .

The 150 Psalm thing is from a specific monastic Rule
that is, itself, an ideal. The Celi De recited 150
Psalms a day, but they often did it in shifts,
throughout the day, and very few of them memorized all
of them.

Of course, if you're a solitary, there you are! And
the more you have memorized, the handier it is to
weave baskets, plait nets, herd sheep or design
websites. Whatever.

If you are looking for a Rule of life, I heartily
recommend the Rule of St. Colum Cille. Here's a
link:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columba-rule.html

This is a very simple and straightforward Ruile which
should be taken at its face value and adapted to your
living situation. Don't push it. Colum Cille designed
it to be gentle with you, so be gentle with it--and
yourself.

Why a Rule of life?

A Rule does a number of things: (a) it encourages us
to obedience, by following something not of our own
devising; (b) it acquanits us with humility, because
we will always fail to observe it perfectly; (c) it
reassures us of God's Grace, for the same reason;
(d) and this one dem,onstrates that the last really is
first: it orders our life in Christ, and instills the
habits of prayer and charity.

Being and doing.

God cares about what we are. He is not impressed
(although He may be pleased, as a parent is pleased
with the progress of a child) by what we do.

So, our purpose is not to do things, but to become
something. In order to do this successfully, we have
to start where we are and be who we are.

One of my early spiritual directors told me, "You
can't give yourself to Christ until you have a self
to give up." The meaning of this is that the first
part of giving ourselves to the Lord involves opening
ourselves to His action within us and letting Him give
us a "self" to give back to Him.

The catch here, is that the more we strive, the more
impatient we are, the longer it takes.

Colum Cille's vigils, standing in freezing sea-water
up to his chin to stay awake during all-night vigils,
has a other side to it: so eager was he to give God
something, it trook him over a decade in exile to
realize His Grace--and it took a "chance" meeting with
Saint Kentigern to straighten him out.

By that time Colum Cille had gotten used to the rigors
of his self-imposed harsh life, and was able to
relax for long enough to receive Kentigern's counsel.

It is not surprising that Kentigwern was called
"Kentigern Mungo," or "Kentigern the lover" by those
who knew him.

Celtic Christianity is a cuiltural expression of the
One True Faith. It is a particularly spiritually
wise expression, because Orthodoxy sees all created
things as holy and as icons of the Creator. The
Celtic culture already had this sort of mindset.

So, we admire the Celts not--as everyone has already
said--as some sort of new kind of "Christian club,"
but because they have a way of life whose Faith is
Othodox and Whose culture is Western.

The fullness of the Faith is to be found in the way
it was first given, which is all Orthodoxy is. Its
Western expression, and therefore the one that sings
in our blood whenwe encounter it, was the Church in
the Celtic Lands.

So, my brother, be easy with yourself. First, give
yourself to Jesus. Relax into Him the way you would
fall trustingly into a swimming pool that was kept
at just the right temperature. Pray. Contemplate.
Read. Discuss. Float and enjoy.

God will take you from glory to Glory in His time, and
from place to place as you are ready.

Bendithiol!

Fr. Jim <><





 
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Da brawder yn Crist, Scotty--

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Three things.

First, don't despise your Tokien "fantasies." Remember
who Tolkien was!

Tolkien's stories aren't kid stuff. They are
powerfully iconic of the Christian life, and like all
good icons they lead us into participation in the
story they tell, and therein change us.

To read Tolkien is to be absorbed into a world of
valor and virtue, quest and conquest, self-sacrifice
and love.

By all means, my brother, have a Tolkien (and Lewis
and Chesterton amd Williams)-based faith-walk. You
couldn't do much better!

Second, you speak of the Way of the Cross. Remember
that it's our cross, not His Cross, that we are called
upon to carry. What this means is that we are to be
faithful to our vocation in Him: to be who we
are, or at least to dwell patiently in prayer until
we find out.

Our cross will more closely resemble His Cross as time
goes on, because if we truly live who we are in Him,
our flesh will be crucified.

Third, this isn't something we can strive for, it's
something that will happen "naturally," at its own
pace. When we begin to protest, "Why is this happening
to me?!?!" we know we are being crucified.
When we are able to go, "Oh!" we'll know it's doing
us some good.

For most, living simply and permitting the Holy Spirit
to lead us away from the attitudes and actions of the
world, is plenty. That, and immersion in Christ.

We will fail a lot. We will be wrong a lot. At those
times, the best thing to do is avoid--at all costs--
the temptation to justify ourselves. Simply and
straightforwardly own up to it (it doesn't have to
be to a priest, it can be to a trusted friend--an
anamchara--but there should be a periodic "clearing of
the books" with another person, as the Lord has told
us to "confess to God and one another"), repent,
accept God's forgiveness and walk on. That's how we
honor His Cross, and live in a proper relationship to
it.

You already know this, of course, but since it was
raised I wanted to address it.

Bendithiol,

Fr. Jim <><




 
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Dia anseo isteach!

Hey Scotty,

Tolkein bashing!!! Shame on you! Why... I keep the Silmarillion right next to my Living Bible! Actually, all his works are very 'Christian' even though there are some who want to hold Gandalf suspect of using magic. When you read the creation story according to Tolkein, you see that Gandalf (Mithrandir) was actually an angel and was one of the angels assigned to watching over this earth for God. The other image in the creation story was that God created all things in a song! That image has never left me! As a Pentecostal, when the Body of Christ goes into corporate worship (singing in the Spirit) I often think of being part of that first creative act. It blesses me!

Fr Jim,

Thanks for the high praise! Yes, there are many here who are mature in Christ and in their Celtic Walk as well. I am very pleased with this group! I am often blessed by the brothers and sisters here, including yourself. Now, let me ask you... any advice for getting our other brothers and sisters active (the lurkers!)? I know some of them and I consider their knowledge and insights to be extremely valuable but they remain silent all the time! Well... let the Lord lead! I'm glad they are here as well anyway...
As I was reading your second post about conforming ourselves to Christ, I was reminded of the Celtic Three Harmonies. It all begins by learning who you are! The hardest part of that process is to come to terms with those things we're not so fond of about ourselves. When we discover that God gave us only 'good gifts' and the things we hate were actually meant as strengths, then we can begin to accept our 'humanity' (sin nature) and be at peace with who we are as He made us! As we discover the purpose of these 'gifts' we see His handiwork within and that leads us back to His Presence within us all. In discovering Him within, we discover His Passion and Love for us. Its so much easier to love myself since I know He is there inside! It brings me into closer Harmony with Him! As I have been growing in that relationship, I can see Him in everyone... all life! Now I have a mission! Like a tuning fork that resonates with another, I am responsible to shine the Light within to everyone so that it may resonate within them and bring them into the realization of His Presence as well. It is such a beautiful plan! So simple... so filled with His Love! It is not about our 'unworthiness' or our guilt! Its about His Love for all Life!!!

Well, enough for now... there's a parade to watch and grandchildren who need my attentions... May God bless us all this Thanksgiving!

Slan
Marty

Ok, I didn't mean it as it came out. I had to re-read my post. I have been a Tolkein fan since my 4th grade teacher read us the Hobbit. While we are on the subject of Tolein, after Cindy post the Screwtape latters the oher day, I grabbed my copy and began to re-read it and the dedication from Lewis was to Tolkein. I had never seen that before. I would have loved to be able to sit at the feet of these two great men as they chatted over coffee at Oxford. But then again I guess there is be a room in heven just them. I can't wait to get there to enjoy the chat.

Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings All,

And happy Morning After! I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving and were willed with food, fun and fellowship!

Scotty,

Thanks for writing about Tolkein and Lewis, it reminded me of something I thought of the other day with Fr Jim's list of authors. Both men were influenced in their writing with George MacDonald. He wrote quite extensively around the turn of the century (last) and always had an underlying current of the Celtic in his works. When the children were little we used to read him to them in the evenings. I think you'd like his work.

Well, the kids are up now so I'd better tend to their breakfasts. May the Lord of Patience and Provision be with us throughout the coming Holiday Season!

Slan
Marty

remember though, we shouldnt be impressed with the people in this world. sure we can learn from them, but instead of looking at them and praising their work, praise GOD for the gift he gave them. i'm a huge fan too of their works, but remember the post you just made scotty,

"Make a determination to take no one seriously except God"

k, i'm not really chastising you! sadly you cannot hear the joking tone thru the internet! haha, hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving, and good luck with the following holiday!

Blessings,
Gina

Dear in Christ, Gina--
>
> remember though, we shouldnt be impressed with the
> people in
> this world. sure we can learn from them, but instead
> of looking
> at them and praising their work, praise GOD for the
> gift he gave
> them.
>
I'm glad you mentuioned the "laugh in your voice" when
you said this.

In the Bible, you see, we are told exactly the
opposite. We are told to "build each other up," and
"honor our teachers in the Faith." Orthodoxy (which
is the tradition in which the Celtic Church stands)
doesn't have a big, involved process for the
canonizing of Saints. It begins with local recognition
of a sound teacher and reliable prayer-partner by the
people in his or her parish or community. It may or
may not spread outward from there. You will notice,
in the hagiographies of Celtic Church Saints, that
many were simply honored in one place or another, and
that often these places wound up being named after
them. Recognition of them anywhere else was, and is,
optional. But recognized they were, by all who had the
good fortune to be exposed to their teaching.

Reliable teachers are golden. We should, indeed,
admire and honor them.

I think this "don't give humans honor" dictum is a
Protestant thing. Protestantism is inherently
personalist and subjective, and so resents the idea
that anybody is "better than me."

Following the Bible, however, Orthodox Christians
realize that there are plenty of people "better than
me," and that even those than whom I know myself to be
much better, can occasionally utter wisdom that
blesses and matures me, which I should be humble and
eager to recognize and learn from.

Whew! Glad you mentioned the laugh!

Bendithiol,

Fr. Jim <><




 
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Hi, Marty--

Gogoniant a Jesu Crist!

Speaking as one who has often simply hung out and
lurked--don't worry about the lurkers, or the fact
that they are lurking. It is wise to chew on things
before we swallow them, and to taste them before we
spit them out. Prudence is not nonparticipation.

Bendithiol--

Fr. Jim <><


 
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Hi everyone,
I've been catching up on the posts, and it's been interesting. Thanks for all your thoughts.

Fr. Jim said:
"I think this "don't give humans honor" dictum is a
Protestant thing. Protestantism is inherently
personalist and subjective, and so resents the idea
that anybody is "better than me."

I disagree. I'm not sure whose thing it is. We do not have feast days where we honor certain saints, but we certainly recognize great men and women of God who have gone before us. Being from a Methodist tradition, John Wesley comes to mind. There are lots of examples we should learn from, and indeed the Bible commands us to remember them. I have this verse on my writing Web site: "You will be able to tell wonderful stories to your children and grandchildren about the marvelous things I am doing ..." Exodus 10:2 NIV

Of course this refers to handing down the story of God's faithfulness and grace. We are to tell these stories, and I believe not only the stories in the Bible, but the legacies of faith left to us by those who went before us,whether they lived a thousand years ago or just died yesterday.

As a Protestant, let me say that I certainly know there are those who are better than me, and I don't resent that! I choose to learn from it! But I also believe that many Protestants do not the know stories of the ancient saints because we weren't taught them--they are Catholic, we are told. I don't believe that way and so am trying to tell these stories for everyone in the books I write.

I don't mean to sound defensive. As Gina pointed out, you can't discern someone's tone through the Internet. I just want to clairfy that Protestants do indeed realize that they can and should learn from people of great faith. There are certainly those who probably do feel resentful, but I would guess that they consist of people from all walks of faith.

Cindy

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Cindy,

I would have to agree with you about the 'Protestant dictum'! Although there are no Protestant Saints, you pointed out the idea that we do hold many people, both from the past and present, in high regard. From my own particular tradition, we see each other as 'saints in the making'! This would concur with the Orthodox doctrine of theosis, the process of conforming ourselves to God.

Then there is the Biblical admonition to 'esteem others better than yourself' in Philippians 2:3 "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself..."continuing on to verses 5-7 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form or a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men". That seems pretty clear to me that we are not to put on any 'airs'! And I believe that is essential to all Christians, regardless of their traditions, to listen and learn from each other. That is what I enjoy about this board... the diversity and freedom!

But from the outside, I'm sure it looks as though Protestants are pretty 'independent' of their pasts. There are very few statues or pictures in our churches! I'm sure this looks very strange to those used to seeing icons or statues for veneration. Yet, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ! The rest is just our humanity affirming itself in a style that pleases us. But God knows our true heart! And I have come to understand the value of these traditions for those following them. Anything that draws you closer to God and is acceptable in His sight is 'okay' in my book!

I'm glad you spend your time researching your topics so thoroughly and that we here may even be of some help in that. You do right to keep the old stories alive. Perhaps we should herald you as our site 'Seanachie'! The one who keeps our traditions alive!

Fr Jim,

I agree with your assessment of the lurkers! Prudence in speech is always preferable to some 'foolishness' that I have seen elsewhere. As I was thinking about your counsel, I realized something about myself... I'm still a teacher!!! Year after year I received a new set of students. My task with them was to bring them to their best before the year was over. I loved the challenge! I saw them all as 'jewels' in need of a little 'tapping' to create a new facet in them. I guess it is just difficult to see the talent here and not 'tap' into it! But thanks for the counsel anyway... I'll try to stop be 'teacher'! (maybe!)

May the Lord of all creation renew our hearts this day...

Slan
Marty

Fr Jim,
i was indeed joking. i'm glad you remembered that. :)

but as someone raised protestant, i can agree that saints werent really honored among the baptists. but they have become increasingly important to me, b/c i havent had much example in my life of how Christians should behave or of powerful faith. they have been my teachers.

in the same way C S Lewis has become a teacher as well (i would say Tolkien as well, but other than reading LOTR trilogy i havent read much of him).

i am glad though that this topic was brought up, b/c i dont think about it much.

thanks! and Blessings!
Gina

I have went back and forth over the whole saints thing. The Lutheran Church does have the saints days listed in the hymnal, but not much is put into it. For me I have now come to read them for inspiration rather than worship. After I visited the Celtic Orthodox Church in TN, I began to pray about the litany of the Saints. If you have ever seen the litany, it contains 48 names! For a Protestant minded person this was very painstaking. But as I began to study and understand the litany, I can now use it as an apostolic succession of the Celtic Church. It is a part of the succession that no one can dispute.

I know my protestant mentors would shutter over these statements and Fr. Jim is probably praising God that he may have reached another Protestant lost soul <LOL>
But the way I see it, as a liturgical Protestant, I confess “I believe in one Holy, catholic, and apostolic church.” For me I can not profess this unless I actually live by it. I can find common ground with things such as the Saints and the succession. I may see it in a different understanding than some within the Catholic and Orthodox church, but it is a subject I will not cause divisions within the fellowship over.

Gotta run for now it is time to eat and do more daddy things.

Blessing
Scotty

Dear in Christ,

When I speak offhandedly and matter-of-factly about
things "we" do, I am speaking of "us" as Celtic
Christians who stand in the One Stream of the
Tradition that has flowed for two thousand years.

There is a place we enter into where our backgrounds
are irrelevant: where, in a sense, we are "all
Orthodox," if only because we have to explain why we
"aren't like" the Protestants in the places we come
from.

I was baptised Dutch Reform, went to Presbyterian,
Episcopalian, Baptist and Lutheran Sunday schools,
VBS's and Bible camps, re-dedicated my faith at
thirteen at a Billy Grahasm rally, was "baptised in
the Holy Spirit" in the Vineyard Fellowship and was
a Lutheran minister for eleven years. So, apart from
the seven years I spent as a Roman Catholic, I'm a
pretty experienced Protestant.

I think what I was getting at is rooted in two
attitudes: one is that the Faith was invented five
hundred years ago by Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, and
is legitimately re-invented by any self-ordained
individual who feels like opening a storefront and
selling his "ministry distinctive."

The other is the lay-run environment, where the
pastor is assumed to be some sort of ego-tripping
Hitler-in-the-making who'd better be kept in check by
a vigilant church board, a good half of whom even go
to church most Sundays, working hard to make sure they
get a late tee time, and not missing the
service unless they absolutely can't.

I'm exaggerating, but not by much. Protestantism is
all about "my walk with the Lord, and how everybody
better respect it."

Orthodoxy is about "The Walk with the Lord, and His
acceptance of me as I put foot to Path."

Protestants "Accept Jesus as Saviour." Orthodox
bow to Him as Lord, at which point He becomes Saviour.
Except for "high church" Protestants, most of whom
are trying for the form without adopting the
substance, seeking some "blend" between the worship
of God and the demands of political liberalism,
with Altars on which no sacrifice is made and
Scriptures that are edited to fit studiedly-tender
sensibilities.

Here on this List, all that is left behind. What is
emphasized about our Protestant backgrounds is those
places where there is still a residue of Orthodoxy--
because, here, we know what it's like to stand in the
thin places of dawn and dusk, and call over to
Colum or Kentigern, and feel their presence by our
side, with the rest of the Church, as we raise our
voice to Jesus, High King of Heaven, Lord, God and
Saviour, Best Friend yet untamed Lion, Lord of the
Dance.

There is a hunger for God in this group, for His
Thing, not "my thing," and the knowledge that He
is Real, and Lord, and has a right to tell us what to
do and how to think, and that there are more ways to
find out what that is than just how I feel about it.

So, that's the "us" I'm referring to.

It is my honor to be in such company.

Bendithiol,

Fr. Jim <><

















--- QuickTopic daily digest
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>
>



 
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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Dear Uncle Screw tape, I mean Fr. Jim "hahaha"
Your post was so timely, I just was readying a few pages of The Screwtape Letters and he was just talking of such a thing. He was talking about being a Christian does not mean that the devil feels as if he has lost you. As long as he can keep you sitting idol in a church pew, caring more about the way the person next to you looks or acts, more so than your worship on God, he still has you. The book went on to say that what the devil fears most is the Church that spreads out through out time and space and is rooted in eternity. That is the unseen church. That is the church the devil fears most. For me that is the Celtic Church. It is stripped of all buildings and hymnal. It is void of all the trappings of the post modern church.
I was meditating on the church and its condition and I see it as this; we have the post modern church that dates back to the Industrial Revolution, which in my opinion is the physical extension of the Enlightenment period that dates back to the 18th century. Before that we had the Middle ages, which went from the 5th century all the way through to the 16th century. It was full of barbarian invasions on the church that was cast aside by the Roman Church. The Church itself was going through the great Schism and the world saw the rise of the Islam. I think that God had almost turned his back on man kind and allowed him to do it his own way. I think the great reformers were called by God, but like man will always do, they still did not truly get it. There by adopting many of their own beliefs and understandings with in the frame work by which the understood best. Which as founded within the Western church of Rome. Which is why for me, I always go back to the Early Church. It was the church of supreme sacrifice. The church that was killed for their faith. The church that had to hide in caves just to utter the name of Jesus. IMO this was the Church that God would say: " Behold my Children. I am well pleased."

You were so right on your statement : " who'd better be kept in check by a vigilant church board, a good half of whom even go to church most Sundays...." This is the major concern I have of our current congregation. I love our pastor dearly, but he is more of a pacifist and allows the church to be ran from the church board. The board is the governing body more so than the Holy Spirit. When I began our men's ministry, I did not ask pastor nor did I ask the council. Many people were floored that not only did it take off, but I didn't ask permission. You should have seen the faces when I said; "I don't have to ask Pastor." I do have to talk to the council and pastor concerning funds and the building, but as far as the ministry of God, I only have to talk with God on such matters. And as we are seeing with 15 men committed to the ministry and 5-8 men attending Bible study, God has blessed the call. And with the lack of planning on my part, I know it is of God. While I spend more time in prayer over it more so than I do planning, God has taken it and used it as He sees fit. As it continues to grow there will be administrative needs that will have to be met, but I have committed myself to the vision that is outlined in the Church "that transcends time and space and is rooted in eternity."

I to honor this group as God's ordained blessing on my life. I know at one time Marty was going to close it and just as he even brought it up the Lord brought more people to the group. Praise be to Him.

IHHN,
Scotty

Edited by author 11-26-2006 09:28 AM
Wow talk about typos and spelling errors! Please forgive me it is early and for some reason the edit button is not coming up. Oh I see, I e-mailed it is rather than postd from the Web.

Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Fr Jim and Scotty, I am so blessed to have you both on this site. Thank you for sticking through all the troubles and dead air and offering such 'pearls' for us all! It is a strange thing that the Lord has done here, there is such a diversity of backgrounds unified in our love for Christ. The things we all learn here will help us all in our daily lives and even our churches. Perhaps, we can even bring the Light of what we have learned here back into our respective backgrounds and in some small way, be the Body of Christ to them! At least, that is my prayer for us...

For a while now I have been thinking of a way to encourage discussion by all participants that is not threatening or challenging. Last week, Gina offered a section of from her devotional to the group on HCN and Scotty suggested that she post it anytime for discussion and consideration. Well, the light came on when I heard that! There have been so many good prayers in the devotional I use, Celtic Benediction that highlight the theology of Celtic Christianity that I have often felt that every new CC should be introduced to it. So, I thought to meself, "Self, why don't you post a wee bit of it for everyone to consider on CCS?" Sin e, that's what I'll do! Even if you do not wish to partake in the discussion which may or may not ensue, at least you can consider the theology of the prayers. I have not found anything so direct nor anointed in any other prayer book but I know everyone has their own learning style. At the very least, I'll expose you to mine! If you feel you have something of value to add for anyone here, please, by all means, share it with us!!!

Thanks again for all you who are here. Each of you has been a blessing to this seanduine!

May the Lord of Light continue to illumine us on this path...

Slan,
Marty

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Sunday Morning Prayers - Opening Prayer

I watch this morning
for the light that the darkness has not overcome.
I watch for the fire that was in the beginning
and that burns still in the brilliance of the rising sun.
I watch for the glow of life that gleams in the growing earth
and glistens in sea and sky.
I watch for your light, O God,
in the eyes of every living creature
and in the ever-living flame of my own soul.
If the grace of seeing were mine this day
I would glimpse you in all that lives.
Grant me the grace of seeing this day.
Grant me the grace of seeing.

Scripture and Meditation

'With you is the fountain of life.' - Psalm 36:9

Jesus said, 'I am the light of the world.' - John 8:12

Marty,
I appreciate the chance to meditate on these prayers as they pop up in my inbox. Thank you for posting them.

It reminds me of a TLC program that I was enjoying that now seems to have ended. It was a reality type show called The Monastery. Did anyone see it? I was so entralled by it, and I'm unhappy that I didn't get them all taped.

These prayers: are they traditional prayers? sung or chanted, do you know? Just curious.

Cindy
P.S. I suppose I really am a storyteller--something God willed more than myself, so I am honored that Marty called me a Seanachaidh.

Beginning of Advent

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

Thanks Cindy, glad you like the prayers. They are from J. Philip Newell's Celtic Benediction, copyright 2000. I am only using a small portion of the daily prayers in the hope to encourage both discussion and growth here. He is a Scholar in Spirituality at St Giles' Cathedral, Edinburgh and has written several well known books on Celtic Christianity in the past few years. I'm sure you've heard of his Listening for the Heartbeat of God. Its a must read for CC!

While the prayers are newly written they are done in the old Celtic Christian style. They expose the underside of our theology, the wonder and revelation of God's intimacy with us. To me, they always provoke my thinking and my heart. They really help me to put aside my 'Western view' of life and see things as my ancestors did. They reveal the God of passion and love who sincerely desires to be close to us, not a god from afar but intimately within all Creation!

I don't believe that they are sung or chanted but then again, I'm no musician! Perhaps someone here would like to take that on as a project for us all. I know that the Northumbria Community have put some of their prayers to song and made a CD of it. It's quite good!

On the TLC channel, I did see the ad for the show about monastery life but was not able see it. What did you like best about it? Having grown up Catholic and having a brother in seminary, I got the feeling that is was just a story about guys trying to be holy! Was there something worthwhile I missed? Oh seanachie (Irish spelling), please do tell!!

And again, to anyone who has a thought about any of the prayers I post, please express it. I'd love to get more insights to them than I already have and the sharing would be good for us all! Later today, I'll share my thoughts on it but right now the chores are still sitting there!

Thanks again for all your input, you've become a real treasure to the group...

Slan
Marty

Hi Marty,

First of all, at least by my tradition, Advent starts next Sunday. Do you follow a different calendar? Not that it matters.

I used the Irish spelling of the word for storyteller because that's the way I have it written on my dry erase board. Someone brought up Gaelic a while back. I didn't mention it then, but I took a very brief introduction last summer of Irish (there are other forms of Gaelic, by the way) from a man named Ron Crow. Maybe some of you have run into him. Last I heard from him, he gave up trying to find work teaching Irish in America and is trying it in Ireland. He's a very nice man. But, it was tough to learn much in a few days. I have some words and phrases that I hang on to for my book writing, and I hope to get back to it someday. Not that I ever expect to be an Irish speaker! But I like learning about the language.

About the show The Monastery: You can learn more about it here: http://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/monastery/monastery.html

It was really a show about finding God, which isn't surprising, I guess. These men all had different issues and came willingly, seeking God by living 40 days with the monks in New Mexico. It was not a show about men trying to be holy. These guys truly wanted to find a better a life. They may not have found exactly what they hoped, but I think they all learned something to take away with them and they all had some type of God encounter while there--at least so far as what the camera showed us. I liked how the abbot allowed them space to learn for themselves. I liked how they worked together on problems that were affecting the whole community. I liked hearing about how silence forced the men to face their own thoughts, and thus deal with them. We get so busy in life that we are able to ignore our hurts and short comings and never improve them because we're not thinking about them. The organized routine, while helping to keep the monastery running, also provided for time to worship and seek God. I enjoyed it because I've never visited a monastery and from a research point of view, this show provided a lot of insight. A reality show about faith may not bring in high ratings because there wasn't anything of shock value. But I'm glad they ran it anyway.

Sorry if I got the topic off track. If anyone saw the shows and has any thoughts about it, I'd love to hear them.

Cindy

Hey Cindy,

By far the Roman tradition (calendar) is the most prevalent here in the West. I have not been one to be 'catholic'(universal) about it! As the children were growing up, it became their task to light the candles before dinner when old enough. As is the way with children, eventually someone figured that if you only light one additional candle on a Sunday, then someone is going to be 'short changed'! Christmas doesn't always fall on a Sunday! As is the case this year. The 24th is on a Sunday with Christmas following Monday. The four lights of the final week will only be lit once! So, we had to adapt and start exactly four weeks before Christmas Day instead of following the Sunday rule. You may also notice that I do not use pink and purple candles in the shot I uploaded. But the reminder still stands regardless of the calendar...

As for the Gaelic - the spelling you use is more Scots Gaelic, they love the dh's! But I was wrong too! You have forced me to go back to my Irish dictionary to catch my mistake. Seanchai(with a fada over the final i)(fadas don't work in HTML!) is the proper spelling. Truth be told... I am a lousy speller in any language! And Irish is easier than English! (hehehe) Ta bron orm! (sorry!) Regardless... well count it a blessing to have you here.

Your description of the TLC show sounds interesting. If it comes on again, I think I'll check into it next time. I think I was most impressed with your description of the abbot allowing the men the space to learn for themselves and the need for silence as a teacher. That strikes a cord with me. We have such a diversity here I often wonder what is going on in the minds and hearts of all the members. Some leave because of controversy but those who have stayed with us this past year have been exposed to many differing beliefs! I have enjoyed it all and I'm glad to think on events here during the rest of the day. I really feel the Lord had established this site but I have yet to see His plan for it! (He often does things without my permission!)(jk)

Okay, the chores are reduced a bit but some are demanding attention. I'll be back later to give my input on the devotionals...

Slan
Marty

<<As for the Gaelic - the spelling you use is more Scots Gaelic,
they love the dh's! >>

Just to be clear, I did not get that spelling from Ron Crow. I don't know where I got it.
Thanks.

Cindy

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Sunday Night Prayer - Opening Prayer

Out of the silence at the beginning of time
you spoke the Word of life.
Out of the world's primeval darkness
you flooded the universe with light.
In the quiet of this place
in the dark of the night
I wait and watch.
In the stillness of my soul
and from its fathomless depths
the senses of my heart are awake to you.
For fresh soundings of life
for new showings of light
I search in the silence of my spirit, O God.

Scripture and Meditation

'You are my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear?' Psalm 27:1
'The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.' John 1:5

what a beauty!~

i like to think that when i hold a baby, and i feel like i would walk thru fire to protect him/her that this is the closest feeling we as humans have to what GOD feels for us.

Blessings in tiny packages indeed!~
Gina

Dia anseo isteach!

Thanks Cindy,

Great upload. Glad you figured out the system! And no... it doesn't keep the message section, only the caption underneath.(!)

As for Kayleigh, good Celtic name there! Pronounced the same way you say 'dance' in Gaelic. You'll have to keep your eyes on her. It is the Celtic belief that children are born 'good', not like the Western idea of 'corruption' from inception! So, we tend to see babies as having come directly from the hand of God. Some where along the way, with one of the night feedings... we begin to think otherwise! (hehehe) Please know that we'll be praying for her and her parents for a while so that they all have a blessed time.

Slan
Marty

Maybe I have always had Celtic thoughts and didn't know it! I believe they are good, uncorrupted, and that's why I feel closer to God holding her. She was born into a sinful world, yes, but it's not touched her yet!

Her mom, my niece, asked me to send her some Irish names. She picked Kayleigh from the Irish word for dance, but chose to spell it her own way.

Thanks for your prayers. Michelle has been a bit of a wanderer, (I dedicated BRIGID OF IRELAND to her) but does have faith in God. She said she prayed all through her delivery!

But back to the prayer you posted. It gave me a great sense of peace on a stressful day. Thanks!

Cindy

Hey Cindy,

I have a few wanders meself! I think a fox hole and delivery room get more prays than some churches!

Glad you're appreciating Celtic Benediction

Slan,
Marty

Dear in Christ--

In Orthodoxy, we use three calendars: the Julian (Old
Lunar), the Revised Julian (updated Lunar) and the
Gregorian (Solar, also called the New Calendar or the
Roman Calendar).

The Old Calendarists will be celebrating the Nativity
on January 7th (when New Calendarists are celebrating
Epiphany, or Theophany). The Gregorian and Revised
Julian are the same, I believe, until 2010, but I'm
not sure.

I don't belong to any organized religion, you see--
I'm Orthodox...

Bendithiol--

Fr. Jim <><




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Dear in Christ,

Ah, babies!

The Church has taught from the beginning that we are
born without sin, but with a "predispoosition to sin"
that makes sin attractive to us. That's why temptation
is tempting, and why there's no perfection in this
life.

The notion of being "completely depraved," which is
the foundation of the Protestant juridical doctrine
of salvation, began with Augustine. It is, in fact,
one of the things he repented of on his deathbed.

On the other extreme, the Pelagians pushed the idea
that we were born in a state of perfection, and were
corrupted by outside influences that, if we could
resist and overcome, would bring us to perfection in
this life.

People identify this as "the Celtic way," because
Pelagius was a Celtic bishop. It was not. It is a
heresy and was identified as a heresy. There was
no "Celtic Church" that ever held doctrinal positions
that differed from the rest of the Church.

Of course, Pelagianism is ultimately nonsense, on
two counts: If we are all born perfect, how are we
susceptible to these influences?

Then again, if we are all born perfect, where do these
influences come from?

Adamists hold that we are all born as was Adam: that
we were in fact all born perfect, but that the outside
influence is the devil, by whose influence
we fall just as Adam did.

We are not, howeverr, preternatural. Neither Adam
nor Eve had a navel. There were no human character
traits for Adam to inherit.

Babies aree, indeed, "fresh from Heaven." They are
also, however, fresh from us. We are essentially
prideful creatures, who want our own way and go to
great philosophical lengths to justify ourselves.

The reason we go to these lengths is that we
essentially want to do good. The reason we have to,
is that we jut as essentially want our own way.

So, the Church does not teach that we are born
perfect, rather that we are born sinless.

That is, in fact, the reason we baptize infants.
An adult has to repent of sin before being admitted to
Baptism and entry into the Body of Christ. An
infant has no sin, and therefore has no need of
repentance, and so is admitted immediately into the
Church.

Bendithiol,

Fr. Jim <><

 



 
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Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

Ahhh... Pelagius! I wish there were such a thing as time travel. I would loved to have spent a little time with this brother just to convince him to rethink his stance against Augustine. A discussion about a year ago prompted me to buy a book entitled Pelagius: Life and Letters by B.R. Rees. It was a fascinating read and I'll recommend it to any who wish to have a thorough understanding of what went on between the two men.
Most seen content to say that Pelagius was a heretic because of his stance on 'original sin'. Not so! It was his insistence on the need for God's grace after we sin. He felt that we were 'good enough' to get our lives together without the help of God. Or, more precisely, that God had already given us sufficient grace to repent since birth! There was his downfall! Without our dependence on God for His grace, we would never have a need for turning to Him!

Only the Roman Church accepted Augustine's doctrine on Adam's sin passing to us in birth. In that the Celts were more orthodox in their thinking. But from the Roman Church it spread and continues today in the Protestant denominations as well. I wonder if they know how 'Roman' their thinking is?! It is such a shame to me to hear the preachers spreading their Roman doctrine of 'original sin' to their congregations. The really sad part is that the congregations don't have any idea of what their history is!
The shame of Pelagius, is that all that he preached became suspect because of his excessive posture on grace! He was an excellent teacher and Bible student in everything else. The Pope and the Bishops of his time upheld his outlook, our outlook, the Celtic Way. But when he fell... it all fell with him! The Celtic Christians were branded 'Pelagians' which was synonymous with heretics. Unfortunately, while all Pelagians were Celtic Christians, not all Celtic Christians were Pelagians. Yet the title still seems to stick and is even taught in seminaries today...

Later on, John Scotus was branded a Pelagian simply because of his Celtic approach to Christianity in a time when Rome was settling into a position of dominance. Several of his works have been lost to us over the centuries but I am glad to have his Prelude to the Gospel of John. He had a fascinating mind and a thorough grasp of God's Word! It was a loss to the Western Church that these two men were shunted aside so easily. If only we could go back in time!!!

Well, that's my two pence... As Fr Jim pointed out, we are not born perfect! We are fresh from the hand of God, we are good but still so flawed in our humanity. We need the Loving Father throughout our lives until we will finally be allowed home! Cindy, enjoy your lovely addition and give her all the love that God will give you for her!

Slan,
Marty

Fr. Jim,
Did john the baptist ever baptize infants? i have been over and over this in my head I'm not trying to be argumentative, but i really dont understand) and i thought that being Baptized was a public admission of faith, & an infant cannot profess faith.

again, i was not raised where babies were baptized, in fact if i tallied all the time that the Baptist church spent teaching why we shouldn't do that i would probably find that i listened to it for a year of my life. Baptist hold that we should only do this when the individual asks to do it in order to show obedience to the Lord.

now, that is what i was taught. and i have since left most of the southern baptist ideas behind. i have no problem looking at it from a different way, but i need these questions thoroughly answer before i decide to fight my husband over getting our future children christened. he'll be adamantly against it, so i need to be able to refute any argument with a solid answer.)

Thanks
Gina

also, what about Enoch>? the Bible (Genesis 5:24, i think) says he walked with GOD until GOD took him up to heaven. it does not say he died like it does other people mentioned in the first book, it says "GOD took him away". so does this mean he lead a blameless life? how does sin nature fit in there/? was Elijah taken to heaven in a chariot of fire instead of dying>? i dont think he lived a blameless life though (didnt he have bad sons or something?)~

again, just being inquizitive.

Baptism is one of the things that divides us, unfortunately. I am with my church on this one, and here is what the Methodists believe (copied from a seminary Web site.)
Key Points Concerning Baptism

    * Baptism is a sign of belonging to the family of God.
    * We are not saved by baptism. It is a symbol of salvation, not the act.
    * Methodists practice infant baptism because there is scriptural evidence that entire households, including children, were baptized, as recorded in the book of Acts. (Acts 16:15 )
    * A person only needs to be baptized once, even if the baptism occurs as an infant.
    * A person who was baptized as an infant and wishes to be baptized as a believer may do so by being baptized as a reaffirmation of what his/her parents declared years before.

I think we get caught up in legalistic issues and that's what prevents unity in the Church. What is important is Who we give our life to. I really don't know what the Celts believed about baptism. Hopefully, someone can shed some light on that. The above is what I believe.

Cindy

the way it was explained to me as a child was this

you cannot be saved by your parents faith. so why should your parents be the ones to choose to baptize you?

i myself chose to be baptized when i was 6. i regret doing it at that age, b/c i did it for the wrong reasons (i wanted to look grown up and take communion with the adults). so i suppose i have no problem with children being baptized b/c at least it was their decision to do so (although i feel that it is such a monumental decision to follow Christ and i'm not sure that young children understand the magnitude of that choice) .

i need to mull this over. b/c i really want to iron out these issues with my husband before we have children. i dont think it would be right to bring it up after a baby had already been born.

Like Cindy, here is the take on it from the Lutheran side.I to have been back and forth on this and again like Cindy we tend to get all caught up in the legal and outward expression more so than the Spiritual. I hope to post more on this later as well as the rest of our posts. Since work has cracked down on internet use, I don't have to time I once had ;-)

Luther goes to the heart of the foundational theological questions at issue over against errant understandings of Baptism present among those involved in the Anabaptist movement of his time.

Perhaps we can make a couple of points that seem pertinent to the issue(s) you have raised. First, as you have implied in your letter, it seems important to note that while Baptism is God's gracious means of conveying to human beings His saving grace revealed to us in Jesus Christ our Savior, it is not the only means. On the basis of the Scriptures we teach that the spoken Word of the Gospel (Rom. 1:16-17; 10:17) and the Lord's Supper (Matt. 26; Mark 14; Luke 22; 1 Cor. 11) are also means of grace. It is no less a miracle of God's grace at work that an adult should believe by hearing the words of the Gospel, than that an infant should receive through Baptism the Spirit who creates the very faith by which one receives incorporation into Christ (Romans 6:4 "We were buried therefore with him by [Greek: the instrumental dia] baptism..."). Adults who hear the spoken Word and believe eagerly seek to be baptized, not because it is a human rite symbolic of one's commitment or something to that effect, but because of what God promises in and through Baptism. It must be remembered that the only theological distinction between the spoken Word of the Gospel and Baptism is that the sacrament includes a visible element; hence, our Lutheran fathers commonly spoke of Baptism as "visible Gospel." The Scriptures distinguish Baptism and the spoken Word, but do not separate them; they are both means of grace. As you also no doubt are fully aware, we teach that it is not the lack of Baptism that necessarily condemns, but it is the despising of this precious gift that endangers faith, for God Himself has instituted it and attached His promises to it.

The Scriptures teach, of course, that there is only one Baptism (Eph. 4:5). There is no indication that God has limited this blessed means of grace to individuals on the basis of age or levels of maturity. Baptism is God's act, a divine testimony to what "grace alone" really means, whereby He imparts the blessings of forgiveness, life, and salvation to indivduals, children and adults alike. And as our Lutheran fathers have always taught, Baptism confirms the grace of God upon adults who have already come to faith, and strengthens them in their faith, even as the Lord's Supper does.

Oh, my post was clipped from a Q&A that was posted on a Lutheran Web site

thanks for that! actually it really helped. i have been thinking of it as something we do to announce our faith (again, that IS what i was taught), but of course as a gift from GOD, baptism is like any other gift and we cannot choose the gifts He gives us.

Thanks!

Fr. Jim:

Funny you should mention newborns. I was looking at my
newborn son the other day, and it just seemed so
absurd to me to think that he could in any way be
sinful. He looked so perfect. The thought occurred to
me that he has a flesh (body) like all of us, and in
it he will be inclined to do things that are sin. But
when God made the flesh, He saw that it was good. Of
course, he will sin at some point, and it is a comfort
that God has made an atonement for him. But we are
wrong in our Protestant and Catholic traditions to see
such a babe as somehow depraved. He is a thing of
beauty, a little miracle.

Laurence Schell

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Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings Laurence,

Glad to see you join us with a post. And... congratulations on your new son!
The nice part of what you say is that it is just how God sees us. It is amazing to know that even though we may still strive to do our best, we will fall short. But God loves us any way! What's more... He's anxious to restore us!

One of the first things that made me challenge my previous beliefs was this very issue. If sin requires us to make a choice, then we need to be old enough to choose! As Fr Jim put it, we simply have a penchant for sin. I prefer to look at as an inherent ingredient to our humanity, i.e.. we are 'selfish'! As the baby screams to be changed or fed or held, we know he is expressing his 'selfish' needs, yet, we don't mind! Perhaps, that is the way the Lord looks at us too. In need of Him until we are with Him...
When I discovered the Celtic Way it was like coming home for the first time. I was raised with an Irish mindset, everything in CC just seemed to make sense! I'm just really glad to be able to share it with you all here...
Hey Gina, et. al.,

Both adult and infant baptisms were considered normal in the Early Church. It just depended upon the circumstances, not the doctrine. Somewhere after the Reformation in Europe, a group called the Anabaptists began preaching that infant baptisms weren't valid! That is part of the heritage that we have today. Most Fundamental, Evangelical churches still hold that view. If you hold to an 'original sin' belief then it is important to get that child into the kingdom as soon as possible. (early mortality back then) If you hold to the view that we are all His from start to finish, then acknowledging it in baptism is not necessary for you salvation. To be honest with you, if this is a source of controversy with your husband... let it go. There will be plenty of other good topics to argue about with him after the children start arriving!

Sin e! May the Lord shine His gracious light upon our hearts and minds here...

Slan
Marty

Dear in Christ, Laurence,

I hate to disagree with Marty, but a right
understanding of the sacramental life is the doorway
to understanding the iconic life, which is the
doorway to the mindset that enables us to see God in
all things. It's a process of growth, and it doesn't
make sense to deny the opportunity to someone.

Your husband is the head of the house, of course, so
I'm not suggesting you go at loggerheads with him
over this, at all. Something in the nature of a
quiet discussion--even the planting of a seed that
will sprout somewhere down the line--would be a good
thing. Then, as the Scripture says, "win him over by
your obedience."

I have seen a great many "church kids," both baptised
and unbaptised, in a number of enviuronments. I can
tell you that baptized kids, by and large, are more
likely to identify with the things of God than are
unbaptised kids.

That's because we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism.
The notion that we don't is just plain wrong, for
the Church has always taught that we do. The icon
of this is the Lord's Baptism, at which the Holy
Spirit descended on Him.

Now, Jesus was (and is) God. He had the Divine Nature
as part of Him. He didn't need to receive the Holy
Spirit, because He and the Holy Spirit were already
One. The fact that this happened in the midst of
John's "Baptism of repentance" sharply delineates for
us the difference between the Baptism of the Old
Covenant and that of the New Covenant, which is for
the "forgiveness of sins." So, the Descent of the Holy
Spirit in the Lord's Baptism was for our benefit,
not His.

Congratulations on your newborn, you sharer in the
creative work of God.

May the footsteps of this child be strong.
May the hand of this child be sure.
May the heart of this child be steadfast.
May the mind of this child be noble.
May he grow under the protection of the Swift, Sure
Hand of Jesus Christ, High King of Heaven, Lord of
all things.
May he carry the Word of God within him and speak
it boldly and truly, and leave signs and wonders
behind.
May he be a True Man.

God grant your family many years!

Fr. Jim <><




 
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Another thing I would like to ad to this baptismal thread. Gina, you mentioned that the child and not the parent should or could make the profession. Not only does the Holy Spirit enter into the child at baptism, (and the child enter into the body of Christ), but the church professes to raise the child in the ways of God. Putting the Bible in their hands, teaching them the 10 commandments and the creed. It is at the point of confirmation that the child will profess the faith for themselves. It is a systematic approach of training and education for the whole church.

We need to remember that we did not choose Him, but He chose us. A person can not be saved based on their emotions at the time. We were saved 2000 years ago at the foot of the cross. So no matter who or when the baptism takes place, it will all ways come back to the person’s free will. Fr. Jim pointed out "baptized kids are more likely to identify with the things of God than are anabaptized kids" IMHO this comes down again to putting the teaching in place early. Now many churches call this process a dedication time. From a Spiritual point, I think the process is the same; we just call it different thing.

Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

Fr Jim,

Disagreement, diversity, debate... they are the life blood of this site! It's never a problem here to speak one's mind in all sincerity. Apathy and conformity for the sake of 'peace' is the death of our growing in Christ! So... by all means... disagree whenever its suits you! (as if you needed to be told!!!)(hehehe)

Actually, I recall something I learned in the early years of my walk. I was sitting in a Bible class when a woman asked the teacher about 'opposing' concepts from the Bible. The teacher, an engineer by profession, replied simply by stating the law of 'dynamic tension'. It is the limits of opposing forces that shape all we know. As we look at the Path to Christ, there are two sides to the path. The path is defined by both sides. Some may prefer to be on the right, others to the left. What matters most is that we are all on the path. Where He has placed me and the experiences I have had will determine where I walk. Still seeing the others who walk to the right and left of me as we all walk the same path is what God wants of us. Maybe that's why I so appreciate the diversity here!

Hey Scotty,

I have a different perspective that I would like you to consider. In your last post you mentioned "Not only does the Holy Spirit enter into the child at baptism, ". Once I also held that as true but now, as a Celt, I hold that Christ is the source of all life. I believe that He is the Source for all His Creation. This actually challenges me!

It used to be in my thinking that only Christians had Christ within them. Everyone who was not a Christian was pretty much a 'child of the sinful world'! Now, I see that the Light of Christ is in all His Creation. My task, the hardest thing I have ever done and still fail at often, is to see the Light of Christ in all mankind. The difference between those 'saved' from the 'unsaved' is the clarity of the light within. Baptism is like a 'cleanser' that opens us to the Light of His Presence within. If we see others as merely in need of seeing His light in us, then it gives us a different responsibility to those who do not yet know Him! We just cannot afford to feel so self-satisfied when so many are in need of seeing His Presence within.... Just thought I'd share that perspective with you, brother. It gave me new eyes for looking at the world!

Gina,

From the book of Hezekiah 12:9 "...for it is not wise to worry about the small things in life. But listen carefully to the voice of the Lord within you!" There are many battles ahead of you in raising children. Choose them carefully! And, as Fr Jim pointed out, your willingness to be a good example of Christ to your husband will not go unrewarded by Him...
May the God of Creation, whose passion brought forth life, grow ever within us all...

Slan,
Marty

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Monday Morning Prayer - Opening Prayer

For the morning light
and its irresistible dawning,
for your untameable utterances of life
in boundless stretches of space
and the strength of the waves of the sea
I give you thanks, O God.
Release in me the power of your Spirit
that my soul may be free
and my spirit strong.
Release in me the freedom of your Spirit
that I may be bridled by nothing but love
that I may be bridled only by love.

Scripture and Meditation

'You are my strength, O God, and I love you.' Psalm 18:1

'Jesus said, 'Out of your heart shall flow rivers of living water.' John 7:38

Edited by author 12-01-2006 01:17 PM
OK, how is this perspective:

If we see ourselves as a well; the well always has water in it, it is simply a matter of priming the well to allow the water to flow to the surface.

Now if we see baptism as the priming and the Church being the primer. It may take some time for the water to come to the surface, but in time with the work of the primer to not give up, it can and will come to the surface.

Just another thought, now that you have my Celtic blood flowing

Scotty

Hey Scotty,

Sorry about that Celtic blood of yours!!! (hehehe) You are a real Laoch Ceilteach! (celtic warrior) But in truth, I'm not sure of your analogy. Perhaps I'm slowing down a bit with analogies!

Maybe I can answer it this way. The well is a well because of the water! Without such, it would simply be a whole. We have life because the Light of Christ is within us. In this case, there is no alternative...

As for the Church, she is the nurturer and teacher in our lives. She is part of the process of our refining. We cannot do without her in our lives for she is the chosen vessel of God to grow us. Yet, she cannot give what only God can give... His Spirit. That we have since our conception. There is no life apart from Christ's Presence!

All the sacraments can feed us. All the trials of this world can shape us. But they cannot give us a life apart from God. Christ is in all His Creation!

Slan,
Marty

From the book of Hezekiah 12:9 "...

Come on now Marty, are you trying to pull a fast one on us Brother? Where is the Book of Hezekiah???????

Ben

Hey Ben,

Just wanted to see if anyone was reading my posts!!! Evidently... you were!
Slan

Yes Marty, glad to see the site light up again. It just so happens I've been looking into some of the sites about numerous apocryphal books and still couldn't recall Hezekiah.

Shalom, Ben

Hey Ben,

Well... its not even apocryphal! The Book of Hezekiah is the book of 'aught-to-bees' to some Evangelicals. You know, those adages that we wish were in the Bible. The most famous is "God helps those who help themselves!". Pretty much anything you want it so say you can just give a reference and it sounds good.

I'm finding out though that not everyone was privy to the joke. Many get a little flummoxed with me and ask what Bible I use. (hehehe) Personally, I think its good to poke fun at how serious we get at trying to prove a point, even if it makes making things up!

For those of you who are still confused... there is no book of Hezekiah!
Slan

Hi, Marty--

The Bible doesn;t teachus to walk oin the right or the
left. It teaches us to look neither o the right nor
the left, butto follow the straight path the Lord has
set before us. I am sure there are many good
arguments that could be made otherwise, but they would
be arguments arrayed against God and the Word of God.

"That's not how I see it" is not an acceptable
argument. God gave us the Bible so that we would
have a written revelation of His Will and Purposes.
He gave us the Holy Tradition of the Patristic Church
as the lens through which we rightly read it. He
wenmt to all this trouble so that would have a Content
of Faith to which to conform our minds--not to offer
alternatives to.

I know, I'm nit-picking, again, and I know what you
mean. But I felt your statement needed some
elaboration.

Bendithiol--

Fr. Jim <><

PS--Um--that Hezekiah thing--wasn't that in Second
Joel?
 


 
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Hi, Marty--

The Bible doesn't teach us to walk on the right or the
left. It teaches us to look neither to the right nor
the left, but to follow the straight path the Lord has
set before us. I am sure there are many good
arguments that could be made otherwise, but they would
be arguments arrayed against God and the Word of God.

"That's not how I see it" is not an acceptable
argument. God gave us the Bible so that we would
have a written revelation of His Will and Purposes.
He gave us the Holy Tradition of the Patristic Church
as the lens through which we rightly read it. He
went to all this trouble so that we'd have a Content
of Faith to which to conform our minds--not to offer
alternatives to.

I know, I'm nit-picking, again, and I know what you
mean. But I felt your statement needed some
elaboration.

Bendithiol--

Fr. Jim <><

PS--Um--that Hezekiah thing--wasn't that in Second
Joel?
 


 
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Greetings all,

Hmmm.... Seems like the mail handler is down again here. I posted this morning but it still hasn't been listed yet. I'll give it a little time and then contact the owner's of Quick Topic. Thanks for you patience...

Slan

OK, I posted direct and no problems. SO it must be on the mail side

Scotty

Okay all, I just contacted the owners fo QT. Hopefully, the mail problem will be settled soon. If you need to post, just follow the link on your incoming mail to this site and click on "Post a new message" in the orange box under the intro. Remember, if you want to include HTML code you can always do that both from home and on site!

Slan

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

Well, it would appear that the mail server is still down today so I will post yesterday's reply onsite instead! Please feel free to come onsite and continue the discussion.

Here is yesterday's post
-------------------------------------------------------------- -----------


Hey Fr Jim,

Ehhh.... did you think I wasn't listening the first time? Or was it your
draft and final copies I got? (hehehe)

Yes, I understand the context of what you are saying and I would agree with
it. The path is the one the Lord placed us on to get us to Him. Any path,
however, has two sides to it. The issue I was hoping to address is the one
that separates us from the rest of God's Creation by being content in our
own salvation. It seems to me that many, while glad of their own salvation
and righteousness, just want to point fingers at those who have not come to
see the Light of Christ within. Our third task in this life is to see His
children, saved and unsaved, as beloved brothers and sisters and bring the
Light given us so it can resonate within all who cross our paths. Be Christ
to all people! It is not sufficient to content ourselves with our own
'rightness' and surround ourselves with those like us! That's how the
Celtic Saints saw the 'pagani', that is how we must look at our
generation as well....

As for the phrase "That's not how I see it", please forgive my usage
of it but I am trying to be humble! (difficult for an Irishman) I know your
past and there are certain attitudes that have crept into your experiences
that just rankle you! Of course I speak with the knowledge of the Holy
Fathers of the Church. One thing that has impressed me about them though is
their humanity! Most people read them with an air of 'pontification', I
tend to see them as sincere men struggling against tremendous odds to do
God's Will. It must have been so difficult. Often, in my past, I have
heard the young in the Lord dreaming of the 'New Testament Church'. Their
ignorance saddened me! That era was so fraught with turmoil and 'strange
teachings' that I doubt these novitiates would have survived their own
salvation! So part of the task I have taken on myself is to bring their
attitude of the Early Church's 'rightness' into my relationships, "yet
with gentleness and reverence..

II Joel, does mention the book of Hezekiah come to think of it! Thanks!
Let me check the references...

May God bless our weekend as we prepare again for His arrival...

Slan
Marty

This is an e-mail I received from http://www.tomorrowsworld.org I think is is very relevant to our situation within the CC community. We too seek many of what they seek, but yet we still seek it within the Truth of God's Word. But just how do we share it with others, before it is to late.

A young boy, wanting to make new friends, casts a spell to become popular. A teenager, seeking peace in a troubled relationship, prays to the "mother goddess" for help. A harried businessman, hoping to escape life’s pressures, retreats to the forest to connect with ancient tribal deities who promise him relief from stress.
     What do these people have in common? They are participating in a growing trend—the revival of pagan belief and practice—which is on the rise not only in North America, but also in the United Kingdom, Western Europe, Australia and other "Westernized" nations where this would have been unthinkable just decades ago. Disenchanted with the emptiness of materialistic society, millions of seekers are looking to non-Christian and non-traditional religions for answers to fundamental questions: What is the purpose of life? Who or what is God? What happens after death?
     Countless millions no longer consider biblical religion an option. Many "are no longer seeking solace for their souls in the arms of Christianity… today’s most popular forms of spirituality are those associated with the occult, neopaganism and witchcraft" (Fantasy and Your Family, Abanes, pp. 108–109). Ironically, the Bible itself predicted long ago this modern "revival" of paganism—and warned of its shocking future consequences. We need to understand the significance of this trend, and where it is leading!

Edited by author 12-03-2006 04:02 PM
From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Monday Night Prayer - Opening Prayer

In the infinity of night skies
in the free flashing of lightning
in the whirling elemental winds
you are God.
In the impenetrable mists fo dark clouds
in the wild gusts of lashing rain
in the ageless rocks of the sea
you are God and I bless you.
You are in all things
and contained by no thing.
You are the Life of all life
and beyond every name.
You are God and In the eternal mystery I praise you.

Scripture and Meditation

'Happy are those whose strength is in you.' Psalm 84:5

'Jesus said, 'The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.' John 3:8

Advent reminder (for those who follow 'weeks')

i know it's been a while since i posted, i have been following the posts, but we have an a state of emergency here in the st. louis Mo/IL bi-state area. we have a major winter storm and everything was covered in 2 inches of ice and 5 inches on snow. (the ice came first in a sleet storm that lasted all of Thursday and the snow lasted from Thursday night into friday mid-morning.)
there are thousands without power and it's been 12-15 degrees at night, so we've been pretty busy at the insurance office i work at, and even though my house never lost power (GOD BE PRAISED) friends and family were without so they've been crowded into our house and my parents' house.

i feel so blessed to have not been badly affected by this storm.

as far as the discussion on baptism was going i have been reading on my rare free moments, and i have found it very interesting and incredibly educational.
baptism was just never a very big subject in the churches that i attended growing up (ironic since they were all BAPTIST churches.) it was pretty much explained as just something a Christian does in obedience to GOD after they became saved.
so all this information has been really great. it's a huge portion of my spiritual education that was missing.

also thanks for the beautiful meditations Marty. i love 'em!

more later, i have to deal with more insurance claims.

Dia anseo isteach!

Hey Gina,

Sorry to hear about the storm but I'm praising God for your safety! Take it easy in this weather and know that we'll be praying for you here. Glad you like Celtic Benediction.

Slan
Marty

HI everybody! Like Gina, I have been swamped, but for different reasons. My husband, however, was on a business trip to St. Louis last week. He didn't see any reason to stay the whole week, so he came home early. He didn't know there was a storm coming until he went to change his ticket. They changed it without a charge because of the storm.

This is the world we live in, isn't it? We know there will be storms. "In this world, you will have trouble."

I'm surprised at the discussion that my posting of my little great niece's picturs generated. Now I'm trying to think of what else I can come with! ;-)

I too love the prayers Marty has been posting. Thanks!
Cindy

Hey Cindy,

You bring up a good point! Ever since our move over here, this little group has been turning into a nice community. (CCC) I have noticed that we pray more for each other as well as share our personal needs. I am glad for this. Some may wish it were more 'academic' like a teaching / study group but I think the Celtic Saints were very 'real' Christians as well as scholars. Thanks for your sharing and feel free to continue!

For myself, I know it was important for us all when Scotty lost his home over a year ago. My son wrote in asking for prayers when I had a short stay in the hospital. Various family problems have been brought before the group for both counsel and prayer. This is a relatively safe site since QT is a bit off the beaten path. Beyond that, I can moderate any rogue elements if needs be. It also seems as though we have a larger audience than I previously thought who monitor what goes on here but don't often participate. We're not a clique... just a community! That's nice! We disagree but in a healthy respectful manner. Hmmm... sounds a bit Christian to me!

Well, let me again encourage all who read this to become one with us. We really desire to continue in fellowship, learning from each other until we can see the Light of Christ in everyone.

May He give us the eyes to see...

Slan
Marty

P.S. - I'm really glad the mail is working again... I desperately need my spell checker!!!

There is no question we are a cyber community here. Every morning I sit here with my cup of coffee and breakfast and just get caught up with everyone’s day. They say that the diner table is the place where the family gathers. I find it interesting that I know more about what is going on in people’s lives here more than I do my own family. And distance is not the issue, since all of us are from all over as well.

Gina, I do recall those days of sleet and snow. But as I tell everyone down here, I would take that over 12’ of water in my house any day. It just goes to show that no matter where we live, the powers of creation are always around us. I have learned to praise God for His power He displays in His Creation. Every time I see Creation at work, God reminds me that He is still in charge. I saw a show on Pompeii and the great volcano of 45 AD ( I think). People of the time had seen it as a sign of the God’s. But as man began to understand science more, God began to get moved over to the side. But I think the more we learn now, the more we realize God in His Creation. Even though we can explain why something works does not change the very miracle that had allowed it to happen in the first place. From a new born to an ice storm, to the very love the cares for them all. God is with us always.

Scotty

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Tuesday Morning Prayer - Opening Prayer

In the beginning, O God,
when the firm earth emerged from the waters of life
you saw that it was good.
The fertile ground was moist
the seed was strong
and the earth's profusion of colour and scent was born.
Awaken my senses this day
to the goodness that still stems from Eden.
Awaken my senses
to the goodness that can still spring forth
in me and in all that has life

Scripture and Meditation

'O taste and see that God is good.' Psalm 34:2

'I came that you may have life, and have it abundantly.' John 10:10

First of all, I'm having a bit of a tense day. Nothing really bad, just lots to do and in the midst of making a deal to sell our house. I saw an email from Marty in my inbox and knew there would be a prayer there to read that would soothe me. Yeah, I was right!

I have always loved trees. Growing up in suburbia, I spent a lot of time under the two silver maples in the front yard (I don't like those kinds of trees anymore!) Of course, it was before we had airconditioning and during a time when stay-at-home moms made their kids go outside until dinnertime. Still, I loved to be under the trees and read or play make believe games with my friends. Now I need a room with a view when I write; no basement office for me! Soon I hope to be able to move to a house that is surrounded by mature trees. I wonder, is this my Celtic heritage coming through?

I was thinking about this because every prayer that Marty has posted from Celtic Benediction has mentioned finding God in nature. I know that this is Celtic, of course, but I was just wondering if I'd always had it in me. I'm not really an outdoors type--no roughing it type camping in the hot, humid summer. And I'm not so much an environmentalist that I would chain myself to a tree rather than see it cut down. I believe nature is given to us to serve our needs. But even so, I feel like I need to be near trees.

Just some thoughts when I should be working!!
Cindy

i dont know about finding GOD in nature, but i think it's more about finding my connection to GOD in nature. while i believe that GOD is everywhere, nature itself is not GOD. but with GOD surrounding nature, it's my place that i prefer to find Him. just as some people find him in song, or in a church building.
maybe i'm just nit-picking at terminology

Gina,

I don't disagree with what you said. It's what I meant. It's much the same about feeling closer to God when holding a newborn--what I was talking about a while back.

Cindy

i actually figured it was what you meant, but i have run into alot of people lately who follow the agnostic view of finding GOD within yourself~ of course they didnt mean it in the way that we do, they believe that the trees themselves or every dog and cat, are god. they believe that (like some of the new-age philosophies claim) that every person has the potential of god (notice i do not refer to this particular deity with the reverence i do the Almighty) within themselves.

so maybe i was mincing words, but sometimes it means all the difference.
i just wanted everything to be as clearly defined as possible just in case some of our lurkers (hello lurkers! have a wonderful day!) misunderstood your intention. :)

Gina,

You are very wise!

Cindy

Dia anseo isteach!

Hey Cindy,

Absolutely! You're a Celt at heart. As I think I've shared before, discovering Celtic Christianity was like coming home to the place I have always been. It was like discovering something important about myself that I always knew. And yes, the Celts honored (not worshipped) trees. They always met in sacred groves and the woods around them were always a special place.

As for God being in trees... naw... that's not what we're about! However, there is a line from Celtic Benediction that I like to use to explain it. "You are in all things and contained by no thing" (Monday Night's prayer) It simply means that all life stems from Him and nothing exists outside of his presence, yet, He is boundless and beyond anything we can even imagine. As I said, I really like the theology of J. Philip Newell. Have you read his Listening for the Heartbeat of God?
As Fr Jim would tell you, Nature is an Icon of God. Think of it as a revelation of Him. If you study it you will see God's handiwork there the same as if you study any field of science. It isn't just appreciation or the usefulness of it, He chose to reveal Himself through it! hey left His imprint in it. Literally, drawing closer to the outdoors will draw us closer to God. You don't have to be a rough and ready tree-hugger... just a student of all He has done!

The difference between us and Western religion is something called 'duality'. Rome preferred to separate things into categories, the Celts saw all things connected. Rome wanted 'order', we prefer 'harmony'! 'oneness in Him!' But to some, it may be the sea with its own rhythms and cycles that draws them into a 'thin' place. For me, it used to be the feel of my sailboat when the wind lifted her hull and you could here the sound of water rushing by. The point is to find God in everything around us... because we are part of it all! We are all 'His Creation'! Therein is the difference between us and where we used to be!

That was the gift of our Celtic forbearers, the blending of their Celtic value for all life with the theology of the Early Church. That is the gift we still hold so dear here as well. The only thing we need to learn to do is bring it to those who have no ears to hear or eyes to see! Bringing the Light of Christ into all we do is the only way. 1 Peter 3:15 admonishes us to allow others to see the hope that is in us. If they can see the Light, they will know the hope!

Well... I should follow my own rules! No pulpit.. no preaching! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on God's Creation. We will all be in prayer for the sale and purchase of your house. Let's trust that God already has a plan for your new digs!

May the Lord of Creation and the Light of all Life renew us and bless us this evening...

Slan
Marty

cindy,
 i dont know about wise, but having stepped into so many different religions i can look at my faith from an outsiders point of view. so i know what would be confusing to someone who isnt familiar with Celtic.

Marty,
how perfectly you just put that!
i have always thought of nature as being a portrait of GOD's personality. powerful, graceful, fair, beautiful. fearsome in its fury during a storm.
we can look at creation and see His personality because i believe He poured Himself into His creation. just like a painter puts himself into his art. if nature seems harsh, wild, and mighty, it is because He is all of those things as well. His creation mimics Him. "after all, He isnt a tame Lion" - hehe.

Here is a site I had forgotten about. I have bee in contact with them a few times andthey seem to be the real deal. I post them as a point of reference. Their site has some great links to it.

http://www.prayerfoundation.org/

IHHN,
Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Gina, I think the Western Church has over emphasized the 'serene' side of God. Often when He is depicted it is usually sitting peacefully upon a throne looking down at us through understanding eyes. Given this image, when we are told to be like Christ we tend to just put on a passive expression and try to look happy. That's not the concept of the Celts! Life is Passionate! The Lord of Life is Passionate!

Yet we are often afraid of that passion! If we stray too close to our true feelings... we feel 'bad' about it! If you look again at the life of Christ, both in the New Testament and the Old, you will see someone who is in love with life. He had all the passions that we do. Or, more precisely, we have all the passions He does! Often we forget that.... Did you ever stop to think that life begins with passion? It was His design to help us understand His love for it! Yet, often we accept the Roman attitude towards it without even going beyond the obvious. It was His design for us to use all our passions. Not so much for our own control over it but to share in His Passion for us. Yet often with struggle with our inherent selfishness even in this area.

Where would we be with out those who have come into harmony with their passions? The artists, the poets, authors, sculptors? It takes passion to grab hold of life fully and create! When we become 'bland' we serve neither God nor ourselves. He designed us for a passion for our lives.

Now, I hope you realize that I'm not talking about 'license'. That's just selfishness. The real purpose of passion is to create not to take! Love is always a giving thing... its more about the 'other' in your life. But in the giving... we are blessed for it too!

Coming to terms with passion in our lives and the things we consider the 'dark side' of our humanity is what this life is all about! We are not here to be 'good' according to someone else's or even our own standards. We are here to come to know ourselves, see Him in us, serve Him in all things and bring Him to others. That's the Celtic Way... that's the Christian Way. It takes passion to live this life as God intended it for us. But... first comes the understanding of it!

Sin e! Thanks for the posts, I'm really enjoying all the traffic! May the Lord of all communication continue to bless our hearts richly!
Slan,
Marty

Hey Gina,

I found this on the Prayer Foundation's Web site.

http://prayerfoundation.org/celtic_baptists.htm

See the Celtic Way can reach anyone. hehe

Scotty

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Wednesday Morning Prayer - Opening Prayer

With the rising of the sun
life rises again within me, O God.
In the dawning of the morning light
you lead me from the mists of the night
into the clarity of the day.
In the new light of this day
bring me to a clearer knowing
of the mystery that first bore me from the dark.
Bring me to a clearer knowing
of the love from which all life is born.

Scripture and Meditation

'Let me hear of your steadfast love in the morning for in you I put my trust'. Psalm 143:8

Jesus said, 'This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.' John 15:12

marty,
i totally agree. which i why i find it so easy to associate the Lion that CS Lewis created with the Son. (hence the quote in my last post.) i find something wonderful about GOD being so wild, so untamed. i am glad my GOD isnt boring! nothing boring or stale about a Being who has the imagination to come up with the platapus or spider-monkey~!

Scotty,
thanks for that link! haha. good reading. i have actually stopped looking at churches in the area by denomination and have just asked members what they feel and experience and learn at their churches (you know is it all singing and praise or is there bible study too? - some around here dont want to study the bible b/c they are afraid that they will have to cover a section that will offend someone). but being raised baptist made me a bit more cynical than i hope to be, so i'm working to overcome that.

i just want to go to a church where it's all about GOD and not just about socializing - been to a couple of those- they only wanted to talk about who was doing what with who and who lost weight (lots of gossip) and they acted put out when it was time to sit down and talk about christ.

Gina said: i just want to go to a church where it's all about GOD and not
just about socializing - been to a couple of those- they only
wanted to talk about who was doing what with who and who lost
weight (lots of gossip) and they acted put out when it was time
to sit down and talk about christ.
_________________________________________________________________

I have come to the conclusion that you can't really get away from that--at least not totally. There is no perfect church. There are many things we dislike about our church, but we decided that since worshiping God is not about what we want or what we like, we will stay put until he tells us to find a new church--which may never happen. I'm not saying you shouldn't church shop, or that this is your situation; it's just that even churches that seem well grounded can be something else below the surface. Just look at what has been revealed about some of the heads of churches lately. Just make sure that rather than seeking a church, you are seeking God. It could be that God wants you to be an example to those gossiping church goers, I don't know.

Now, that's easy for me to say, huh?

Cindy
Who just accepted an offer on her house and will be looking for a place with more trees! :-)

A few years ago, I was part of a church plant. It was a great experience and I really got to understand the dynamics of church from a social point. And today’s Post modern church is more about fellowship and entertainment than it is about worship. Now the Praise it there through CCM, but a lot of it is surface.

After that year I cam to realize that church is not about me. God has told me many times He really does not care what I want. He wants me to want what He wants. And that is for me to walk in the Fellowship of the Holy Spirit and He will do the rest. So I got to the point that I see my church as my mission field. I am able to bring my CC Walk to people whom I know and love and they are far more willing to listen than the average man on the street. The big thing is I never mention CC. I simply am and our understanding becomes a new and exciting angle that most people do not think of. It’s great. They know that my hobbies are anything Celtic, but they never really understand that even my faith is grounded in the Celtic Way.

Good luck on the house. We are still getting settled in ours. I only pray this will be my last. We have had 4 houses in 17 years and that is not counting the 2 apts. I really hate moving. My prayers are with you.

Cindy,

Great news!!! I'm really excited for you! Trust that this is a 'God thing' and that He has a plan for you in your new location. Please keep us informed of all the things for which you need prayer...

Slan

Well, inspection is next Tuesday. It should be fine, but you never know.

We are looking for a place in which we can minister better, and that includes to our family. This time I am striving to have a humble attitude that that's what the home is for, a place in which to work for Him, rather than a showplace. (Of course, I'd take a showplace if that's what He wants!)

Edited by author 12-06-2006 02:03 PM
Cindy, I could not agree with you more. We went really simple with our house. It is one of the smallest in the sub. We look at the other houses that are 200-400 Sg feet more and have to wonder if it is worth the extra $30,000. Our house is nothing fancy and we like it that way. We built it ourselves so it had our love in it rather than what the builder wanted us to have. They kept telling us ," thats not in any more." If That is what I want, its in " my house. Good luck on finding what God is calling you to.

Scotty

cindy, i know just exactly what you are going thru! i am buying a house (closing on the 3rd of january) right now, and we had a panic attack when we learned that our house was on a flood plain ( a 100-500 year flood plain and we just had the Mississippi flood of '93- so there should not be another for many many years) and were going to have to get flood insurace, which is more than home-owners (at the LEAST $600.00 a year~ just for flood!) but then the realitor told us that there had been changes to the flood maps and that the appraiser just hadnt known that that was a flood zone B and that it isnt an area that is required to have flood insurance. *sigh* so relieved!~

hopefully all will go well with your inspection! (ours is next week) i will pray for you!~

i am totally aware that no church is perfect. but the last church we went thru, there wasnt barely any mention of Christ in the sermons (except for when they showed The Passion of the Christ). my soul was yearning for learning about GOD and it just wasnt being satisified there.

i also crave fellowship with other christians, and some of the churches were so cliquish that we were snubbed or ignored completely- no fellowship at all!

a friendly church who loves GOD. that is all i want for christmas. :)

Gina: a friendly church who loves GOD. that is all i want for
christmas. :)

Okay. That's what I will pray for for you! I'm sure you will find it.

Cindy

also, i have been posting my daily devotionals on the other CC forum, i just thought maybe you all would like these as well! i have really learned alot from them.

---
December 6, 2006

"My Rainbow in the Cloud"
 
READ:

I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth —Genesis 9:13
 
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It is the will of God that human beings should get into a right-standing relationship with Him, and His covenants are designed for this purpose. Why doesn’t God save me? He has accomplished and provided for my salvation, but I have not yet entered into a relationship with Him. Why doesn’t God do everything we ask? He has done it. The point is— will I step into that covenant relationship? All the great blessings of God are finished and complete, but they are not mine until I enter into a relationship with Him on the basis of His covenant.

Waiting for God to act is fleshly unbelief. It means that I have no faith in Him. I wait for Him to do something in me so I may trust in that. But God won’t do it, because that is not the basis of the God-and-man relationship. Man must go beyond the physical body and feelings in his covenant with God, just as God goes beyond Himself in reaching out with His covenant to man. It is a question of faith in God--a very rare thing. We only have faith in our feelings. I don’t believe God until He puts something tangible in my hand, so that I know I have it. Then I say, "Now I believe." There is no faith exhibited in that. God says, "Look to Me, and be saved . . ." ( Isaiah 45:22 ).

When I have really transacted business with God on the basis of His covenant, letting everything else go, there is no sense of personal achievement— no human ingredient in it at all. Instead, there is a complete overwhelming sense of being brought into union with God, and my life is transformed and radiates peace and joy.

---

sorry Marty and Scotty, i know you see these on the other site!
-Gina

Thanks, Gina. I haven't been to the other site. I have so many groups to read that I'm going to have to cut back. I'm not getting enough work done--the perils of the Internet.

So I appreciate reading your thoughts. If I'm quite for a while, it's only because I HAVE to work.

Thanks everyone. I love this group!

Cindy

Gina,

Even if you don't need flood insurance. GET IT! If you don't need it, it is not that much. They will not tell you but, any water damage will be concidered flood. That includes hot water heaters, rain, ANYTHING that is water. I know you may never see 12' of water, but I would still get it.

Scotty

acutally because of where we live, it will add about $100.00 a month to our monthy payments. this is the area where in 1993 you saw on the news the house floating away b/c the Mississippi River flooded.
i literally cannot afford it. it is VERY expensive to get flood ins. around here (even if you are not on an actual flood plain.) just because of the relative location.

and yes i have seen water like that, in fact the water was up over houses and yo ucan still see water marks on a huge building downtown. Budweiser (which is a local brewery for us) produced water in beer cans that year, because no one could drink the water. (we still kept one as a suvenier)

believe me, i want to get the flood ins. but if you have to choose between ins. and groceries, food will win out. (believe me, as an insurance CSR- and agent in training- i have seen lots of people drop their ins b/c staying in heat during the winter is just a more pressing issue.

and actually, earthquake Insurance is getting expensive for lots of people around here, b/c we are just north of the largest fault in the U.S. (even if it only goes off ever 400-500 years - we ARE due for it soon) if we have a major earthquake here, it's going to make California's fault look stable. (last time it happened the Mississippi ran backwards and flooded entire areas.)

we may not get disasters as often as the coasts, but when we do! oh, boy!

instead of paying out for the flood ins. (luckily earthquake will be included for us, b/c of the company we're going thre) i just hope that the money that we save every month for emergencies will be enough to keep us going if a disaster struck.

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell

Wednesday Night Prayer

'Yours is the day, yours also the night;

you made the luminaries of the sky,

the sun, moon and stars.' Psalm 74:16

Silence

Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.
Opening Prayer

Glory be to you, O God of the night,

for the whiteness of the moon

and the infinite stretches of dark space.

Let me be learning to love the night

as I know and love the day.

Let me be learning to trust its darkness

and to seek its subtle blessings.

Let me be learning the night's way of seeing

that in all things I may trace the mystery

of your presence.

Scripture and Meditation

'Lead me in your truth and teach me

for you are the God of my salvation.' Psalm 25:5

Jesus said,' You will know the truth,

and the truth will set you free.' John 8:32

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell

Thursday Morning Prayer

 

'You show me the path of life, O God.

In your presence there is fullness of joy.' Psalm 16:11

 

Silence

 

<I>Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.
 

Opening Prayer

 

As the light of dawn awakens earth's creatures

and stirs into song the birds of the morning

so may I be brought to life this day.

Rising to see the light

to hear the wind

to smell the fragrance of what grows from the ground

to taste its fruit

and touch its textures

so may my inner senses be awakened to you

so may my senses be awakened to you, O God.

 

Scripture and Meditation

 

'You satisfy the thirsty,

and fill the hungry with good things.' Psalm 107:9

 

Jesus said,'I am the bread of life.' John 6:35

I would like you to keep our friends Mark and Mary Kinler in your prayers. They baby died Monday. They knew since she was about 4 months that he would not live very long. He had a rare condition where the Chromosome 18 never developed. This is the Chromosome that tells the brain to tell the rest of the body to function.

Please allow me to be a comfort to them as this is by far the hardest funeral I have ever had to attend.

Scotty

http://www.acadiananow.com/apps/pbcs.dll/d...2000136&Selected=11

Dia anseo isteach!

Hey Scotty,

We'll be praying for you, for the Lord to use you and for the couple who have lost their baby...

Slan
Marty

I wanted to post this so I could retain it as well as share it with the group.

http://www.iit.edu/~phillips/personal/contents/carmind.html

Scotty

Today’s devotional reminds me of a time a few years ago around Semhain. I went outside and just walked around looking at the heavens. While the world was celebrating the night as a time of fun mischief, I looked upon the night as God’s night. We tend to see the day good and the night even, but as the Scriptures tell us; “He called the light day and the dark night. And it was good.” If there is any evil in the darkness it is what we have done or what we have allowed to let the devil control. We always need to be aware that everything under the stars and in the heavens is God’s.

I heard something today that floored me. They have estimated that the universe is 15 billion light years wide. And within that expanse, there is only one place where the conditions are right for carbon based life forms (aka humans). So are we here by chance or by design? I think that even the greatest mathematical minds would have to say that is beyond chance.

Scotty

Hey Scotty,

In both J. Philip Newell's and John O'Donohue's writing they present night not as a time of fear and evil but rather as a time of nurturing. We work all day... life takes its toll on us all day long! Night is the time for withdrawal and replenishment. In Anam Cara he refers to it as a 'womb time', time to be safe and secure as darkness surrounds us and nurtures us from the wounds of the day. The ministering angels prepare us for the next day! Its a different perspective... one of grace throughout the each day. I guess its part of that Celtic Cycle of engagement and withdrawal.

Your right though, we are taught to fear the night for it is dark! To see God in all things and even all times takes some practice! Thanks for the comment...

Slan
Marty

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell

Thursday Night Prayer

'As a deer longs for flowing streams,
so my soul longs for you, O God.
My soul thirsts for God,
for the living God.' Psalm 42:1-2

Silence

Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

In the darkness of the evening
the eyes of my heart are awake to you.
In the quiet of the night
I long to hear again intimations of your love.
In the sufferings of the world
and the struggles of my life
I seek your grace of healing.
At the heart of the brokenness around me
and the hidden depths of my own soul
I seek your touch of healing, O God,
for there you reside.
In the hidden depths of life, O God,
there you reside.

Scripture and Meditation

'You turn a desert into pools of water,
a parched land into springs of water.' Psalm 107:35

Jesus said, 'I am the resurrection and the life.' John 11:25

Edited by author 12-08-2006 11:03 AM
From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Friday Morning Prayer

'It was you, O God, who made my inmost self,
you knit me together in my mother's womb,
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.' Psalm 139:13-14

Silence
Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

In the morning light, O God,
may I glimpse again your image deep within me
the threads of eternal glory
woven into the fabric of every man and woman.
Again may I catch sight of the mystery of the human soul
fashioned in your likeness
deeper than knowing
more enduring than time.
And in glimpsing these threads of light
amidst the weakness and distortions of my life
let me be recalled
to the strength and beauty deep in my soul.
Let me be recalled
to the strength and beauty of your image in every living soul.

Scripture and Meditation

'You desire truth in the inward being;
therefore teach me wisdom in my secret heart.' Psalm 51:6

Jesus said, 'The Spirit will guide you into all truth.' John 16:13

I have never seen and felt such a presence of God. Last night when pastor read Mark and Mary’s eulogy, there was not a dry eye in the house. It was not just about loss and apathy for their loss, but the very strength that can only come from God. I can not fully recall all that was said, but the whole thing centered around the very idea that while Taylor was only here for a short time, he reminded them of the love for family and God and the only way they could honor his life would be to give back what has been given to them over the last seven months. There is no question that this family is and will be committed to the service of God.

As pastor read his message, I could not help but here Taylor’s voice crying out in joy. Telling all of us that what pastor was saying was true, Jesus is alive! Come and see! He was wondering why mommy and daddy was crying. “But mommy, I’m ok! Look I can walk and talk. Jesus taught me everything.” Taylor went from a frail infant to the eternal Glory of all that God has to offer.

This was the second memorial I have been to. There is no question in my mind that this is who I wish to be remembered. I always see a funeral home as a place of death, but a memorial at church is a celebration. People tell me that a wake is a place for closure. But IMO, I see it as the angel told Mary; “But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him. There was no question last night that Taylor was risen. I wish to know him as he is now and not as he was. The last image I would want is to see him in the coffin. That would have been too much for me. Not only as friend of the family, but as a father. No one ever wants to see an image like that. Both of my parents have since passed on and I can not shake that image of them lying in the coffin. I know with all my heart they are not there. "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen!

IHHN,
Scotty

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Friday Night Prayer

'When I look at the heavens, the work of your hands,
the moon and the stars that you have made;
what are human beings that you are mindful of them,
children of the earth that you care for them?
Yet you have created us a little lower than the angels,
and crowned us with glory and honour.' Psalm 8:3-5

Silence
Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

For the night skies opening outwards
star upon star
expanse after expanse
thanks be to you, O God.
For the mystery of your presence
in and beyond all that can be seen
thanks be to you.
Guide me further this night
into the inner universe of my soul
ever opening inwards
light upon light
new depth after new depth.
Guide me through strange and fearful spaces
towards the place of your eternal dwelling
and assure me again that in drawing closer to you
I draw closer to the heart of every living being
that in drawing closer to you
I approach the heart of life.

Scripture and Meditation

'I delight to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart.' Psalm 40:8

Jesus said, 'It is the spirit that gives life.' John 6:63

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Saturday Morning Prayer

'Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish but you endure;
they wear out like garments
but you are the same and your years have no end.'

Silence
Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

In the silence of the early morning
your Spirit hovers over the brink of the day
and new light pierces the darkness of the night.
In the silence of the morning
life begins to stir around me
and I listen for the day's first utterances.
In earth, sea and sky
and in the landscape of my own soul
I listen for utterances of your love, O God.
I listen for utterances of your love.

Scripture and Meditation

'Be still and know that I am God.' Psalm 46:10

Jesus said, 'I give you eternal life,
and you will never perish.' John 10:28

Hi all:

I have really enjoyed the prayers that are being
posted. I see some consistent themes that strengthen
and encourage my faith. One is looking for the
presence of God within ourselves. I am not talking
about some sort of new agey inner light. The Bible
teaches that Christ dwells in our hearts. So often we
are taught in various Christian traditions not to
trust the thoughts of the heart. Some quote: "The
heart is deceitful above all things and desparately
wicked. Who can know it?" I used to think that way
myself. But I truly believe God wants to speak to us
in our hearts.

Also, the prayers seem to use the presence of God
within as an inspiration for worship. There is
actually rejoicing over the inner reality of God, and
it leads to thanksgiving and praise, to giving back to
Him for all He has done in our hearts. I sense this
keenly in the Celtic prayers.

The other thing that comes across in the prayers is
the appreciation for and poetic description of God's
creation. They truly show the creation as a window of
inspiration that leads into worship of the creator.

God bless.
Laurence Schell

--- QuickTopic daily digest
<qtopic+31-ACD32UG6jYw@quicktopic.com> wrote:

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Hello again:

For those of you who recently posted on the nature of
babies and original sin, and for anyone else with some
thoughts on the subject, I have a question:

Fr. Jim said we have a predisposition to sin. I would
like to know where that predisposition comes from.
Does it come from the fall of Adam? Or does it come
from the way we were created?

If from Adam, how? In what way does Adam's sin dispose
us to sin? Is it because sin entered the world and
therefore influenced us? Or did it somehow make us
spiritually ill?

If from creation, how could God call everything He
made good? I am not suggesting any blame to God for
our sins. But is our selfishness a created part of our
nature? Or is selfishness a disposition that came to
us as a result of Adam's disobedience? Could
selfishness in some sense be considered good?

What about the presence of death in the world? Did the
entrance of death somehow predispose us to sin?

Do we have a "sin nature"? Or were we truly created
good and have we truly inherited a good nature from
Adam? And isn't the nature we inherit from Christ even
better?

I would appreciate hearing the perspectives of the
different church traditions represented in the group,
as well as of individuals.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Laurence,

Thanks for your post and I'm glad you're enjoying Celtic Benediction! It has been a major part of my Celtic Walk since I first discovered it a few years back. Although the British spelling is driving my word processor to distraction, I so appreciate the theology of your countryman (J.P.N.). It completely reflects the thinking and beliefs of those who have been on the Celtic Way before us! Glad you like it, I'm never sure if anyone is actually reading it! So you post has encouraged me...

You have made some excellent observations also. Unfortunately, its the weekend here! I know some in the States keep in touch from their work machines and others don't have time for correspondence while the families are there. I'm hoping that we'll be able to pick this up when everyone else returns. I'm interested in the responses you'll get as well!

I looked up your reference from Jeremiah 17:9 about the heart being deceitful. I had heard it / taught it many years ago but since starting the Celtic Way I never thought much about it since. I know it is the Word of God and therefore true but its interpretation or accepted inferences is what concerns me most. It would seem that we cannot trust our hearts or find anything good within ourselves. This is completely against the Celtic Way of seeing God and His Creation! To look at it in context though brings new light on its actual meaning. In verse 5, you can see the Lord is talking about those who turn from Him. ("...Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD.") Those who follow their own hearts while filled with their own longings and selfishness are deceived! (but that takes us to your second post!) This is not to be said of those who seek God.(like us!) Later, in verse 10, it shows that God looks to our hearts for reward us! He would not do that if it were totally depraved as the verse seems to indicate. ("I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.") So, its not just your opinion anymore... it is what you believed it to be according to the Scriptures as well. God does speak to us through the heart because that is where He resides within us. (I won't say any more on this until I get to the 'original sin' topic!)

As for your " presence of God within as an inspiration for worship" idea... that is totally Celtic! The task of each of us in CC, and this is where I think Western Christianity has missed it, is to see the 'Light of Christ' not only in ourselves but each other as well. And, not only among fellow Christians but to all of His created children as well. We seem more content in telling others that 'we have made it, you can tool!' type of evangelism. This only serves to elevate ourselves and not Christ in others. Once you actually see Christ within someone, it moves you to a different response towards them. You must!! He loves them!!! That is why the Celtic Saints had such success, they not only saw the Light of Christ in themselves .. the saw it in others.. and taught them how to see Him for themselves!
I'm sure you realize that Creation has often been called the 'other Bible' since it also is a revelation of God. How many times have you heard of scientists speaking of the 'order' of nature? God's ways are revealed there for any who seriously seek to find truth! As the Celts saw it, All Life was inter-related and inter-dependent! That is the reason for the Celtic Knot... it represents Life! Again, a lesson that seems to have been lost to time...

I'll wait to respond to your second post, its quite a few questions there to consider! Thanks for your input, perhaps we can generate some more discussion!

Slan,
Marty

i promise i will go back and reread the question more thoroughly and Marty's response. i think this was a great question and it's one i'd liek to be able to devote some time to meditate on and pray about.

sorry i dont have that time right now, i'm just headed out the door!

more later!

Blessings!
Gina

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Saturday Night Prayer

'Blessed are you, O God, for you give me counsel;
in the night also my heart instructs me.' Psalm 16:7

Silence
Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

As it was in the stillness of the morning
so may it be in the silence of the night.
As it was in the hidden vitality of the womb
so may it be at my birth into eternity.
As it was in the beginning, O God,
so in the end may your gift be born
so in the end may your gift of life be born.

Scripture and Meditation

'With my whole heart I seek you, O God,
I treasure your word in my heart.' Psalm 119:10-11

Jesus said, 'Peace I leave with you;
my peace I give to you.
Do not let your heats be troubled,
and do not let them be afraid.' John 14:27

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Sunday Morning Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

Blessed are you, O Child of the Dawn,
for your light that dapples through creation
on leaves that shimmer in the morning sun
and in showers of rain that wash the earth.
Blessed are you
for the human spirit dappled with eternal light
in its longings for love and birth
and its pain-filled passions and tears.
Blessed are you, O Christ,
for you awaken me to life.
Blessed are you
for you stir me to true desire.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

May the light of God
illumine the heart of my soul.
May the flame of Christ
kindle me to love.
May the fire of the Spirit
free me to live
this day, tonight and for ever.

YAHHHHHH! He is truely a blessing from God.

It does not matter how many times we try and understand this, it always seems that God will always teach us something about sin and the power of His eternal Grace. I think we must first go to the very beginning and try and understand just what is meant by the original sin. Not the doctrine of Original Sin, but what was the original sin. God told Adam and Eve that “of they eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, their eyes would be opened and they would know both good and evil and they would surely die. The only thing Satan had to do was raise a question of doubt. “Is what God is telling me really true?” It was at the point of disobedient that Adam and Eve fell. In fact this is the
very same fall that accorded to Satan himself. And all this took place without the law.

Romans 5:12 – 21 gives us a great account of the anthology of the process of sin and death and the blessing we obtain through Jesus. To what I read in the Genesis account, Adam and Eve were created as immortal souls. It was only at the point of disobedience that they went from immortality to mortality (“for you shall surely die”) Since we were created to be immortal beings our, God’s eternal Spirit was removed creating and transcendent void in humans that can only be filled be God through His Holy Spirit.

I find it interesting that in Buddhism they refer to a spiritual void as a point that in which ALL exists. Void is not the Goal. But in meditative practice cognition of it is of great importance. "I shall complete the void in myself — and utter peace I shall attain" Void can be cognized in the highest meditations. It has no radiance at all. But it should not be mistaken for blackness that is a reflection of coarse energetic states. This theology even shows that people of other faiths still realize that there is a void. God tells us it is His Spirit and His alone that can fill this Void. It is like a puzzle missing one piece. Only one puzzle piece can fit in that space and that is God.
Because of the law, we always want to label our sins. But our actions are only a portion of sin. Sin by its very nature was before the law. The law only increased our failure (Romans 5:20) We always need to remember that the simple fall of man is the separation from God. God had created man to be immortal and live forever with Him, but through Adam’s actions, death entered into the world. And death is eternal separation from God ( now there is another study). So the fall of man was been passed down because that is the way we are now created. God’s perfect design was forever changed due to Adam’s actions. There is nothing we can do to change what we are. We are human and therefore fallen creation. But through the ever saving power of God, we can put on immortality.

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So the answer to my understanding is simple. We are human. Much the same as a tree is a tree. A man can not become immortal no more than a tree can not become a rock. But we are transformed from mortal to immortality once we are removed from this body of sin and death. When we accept the saving Spirit of Jesus, through Faith, than we fill that God Void and there for our souls become immortal. As it was designed in the very beginning. All people are lost because we will and must die. But the good news is everyone has a God void and there for goodness can be obtained by al people. It is up to us to share this mystery with all the world. Hearing comes by faith and faith comes from the Word of God.
As a CC I can see humans as fallen the same way I see a rock or a tree for what it is. It is not about evil and the dirty deeds that are done, but rather simply by it’s nature it is human. It has to die. And with out the revitalizing power of the Holy Spirit can it once again obtain it’s rightful place in Creation as an immortal being created for one reason; to be in fellowship with God for all eternity.

IHHN,
Scotty

p.s. I hope I edited that right. My mind was going in a million directions try to understand the teachings of the Spirit.

scotty you said " My mind was going in a million directions try to understand the teachings of the Spirit."

haha. but isnt that the beauty of the way GOD reveals Himself to us? there is just so MUCH of Him. there is no way we can comprehend the all of Him. then when we get excited b/c we catch onto a thread of thought and jumble up the words.

but i really did understand what you were saying. :)

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Sunday Night Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

Thanks be to you, O God,
for the night and its light,
for stars that emerge out of evening skies
and the white moon's radiance.
Thanks be to you
for the earth's unfolding of colour
and the bright sheen of creatures from
ocean depths.
In the darkness of the world
and in the night of my own soul
let me be looking with longing for light
let me be looking in hope.

Recall the events of the day and pray for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

May the grace of the night's stillness be mine
may the grace of the moon's guidance be mine
may the grace of heaven's vastness be mine
to renew my soul in sleep
to enlighten my dreams in the night
to open my spirit to eternity
until the angels of light awaken me
until the morning angels awaken me.

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Monday Morning Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

For the might of your wind on the waters
for the swelling of the open sea
and the rushing of crested waves
thanks be to you, O God.
For the strength of desire in my body
for the sap of life that flows
and the yearning for birth and abundance
thanks be to you.
Restore me in the image of your love this day
that the longings of my heart may be true.
Restore me in the image of your love this day
that my passions for life may be full.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

In the beginning, O God,
your Spirit swept over the chaotic deep like a wild wind
and creation was born.
In the turbulence of my own life
and the unsettled water of the world today
let there be new birthings of your Spirit.
In the currents of my own heart
and the upheavals of the world today
let there be new birthings of your might Spirit.

Hi, Marty--

I have often noticed that the more one grows in the
Primitive Western life, the more he sounds like one
of the Desert Fathers (not surprising, considering
the relationship the late first-wave Celtic Church had
with the Copts).

One of the prevailing themes of Orthodox mystagogy
is the "war with the passions." I do believe you
have just offered the finest quick-capsule overview of
it that I have ever read.

Praise where it's due.

Blessings--

Fr. Jim <><




 
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Hi Marty:

I couldnÂ’t help but seize upon some of your comments
about evangelism.

You wrote: “The task of each of us in CC, and this is
where I think Western Christianity has missed it, is
to see the ‘Light of Christ’ not only in ourselves but
each other as well. And, not only among fellow
Christians but to all of His created children as well.
We seem more content in telling others that ‘we have
made it, you can tool!Â’ type of evangelism. This only
serves to elevate ourselves and not Christ in others.
Once you actually see Christ within someone, it moves
you to a different response towards them. You must!!
He loves them!!! That is why the Celtic Saints had
such success, they not only saw the Light of Christ in
themselvesÂ…the saw it in othersÂ…and taught them how to
see Him for themselves!”

For years I have wondered what is wrong with the way
we share our faith in modern Christianity. Why is it
so ineffective in reaching our own culture? ItÂ’s easy
to write America off as a post-Christian society, and
blame it on hardness of heart and the snares of
prosperity and materialism. (By the way, I live in
Eastern Washington, despite the UK e-mail address.)
And itÂ’s easy to blame people in the church for not
doing enough about it. But why donÂ’t we as Christians
blame ourselves? Or at least look at the things we
believe and see if there is some ignorance that keeps
us from being fruitful?

I used to witness with what I called the truth. That
is, I talked to people about what they believed, and
then I corrected them with the truth, and hoped they
would accept it and believe. It seemed like a
reasonable enough approach to me. But, of course, I
was elevating myself and not Christ in others as you
put it. Now it seems to me that a better approach
would be to recognize when the person has some inkling
of the truth and build upon that. I suppose that is
what Jesus did when He said: “Blessed are you, Simon
Bar Jonah; for flesh and blood has not revealed it to
you, but my Father who is in heaven.”

People often understand more than we give them credit
for. The doctrine of original sin, for example, is a
big stumbling block to some people in accepting the
faith. They think that in order to be a Christian they
have to believe something that seems absurd to them.
People are not likely to abandon what they know and
accept our corrections. But if you can build on the
truth that they have already received, then you have
something. For example, if you were witnessing to a
Buddhist, it might be better rather than criticizing
their beliefs to affirm that they are right in
perceiving an inner void, and then use that to point
them to Christ.

IÂ’m sure people were a little put off by my attitude
when I would witness to them. And here is where I
think we need some help in the church. We seek to
elevate ourselves in the witnessing encounter because
we donÂ’t really sense GodÂ’s love within us enough.
Beginning to see the image of God in every human
being, including myself, and seeing the extent to
which He was willing to go in restoring us helps me
begin to feel His love for others as well. I think
people are attracted to a love that is not ordinary,
not merely human. And we may have that kind of love
with the stirring of Christ within.

In our small fellowship group here in Eastern
Washington, we talk a lot about seeing Christ in
others. I didnÂ’t know until recently that that is
characteristic of Celtic Christianity. To me itÂ’s a
revelation from God. We use other terms, but I think
we are talking about the same thing. We also say in
our fellowship that it is less important to know who
you are in Christ than to know Who it is that is in
you. We derive our true identity from Christ within.
And we talk about calling forth Christ in others. That
is perhaps one of the marks of true leadership,
calling forth the greatness in people.

I watched Braveheart again lasted night. And I noticed
that twice William Wallace told someone, “I see a
strength in you.” He said it to the princess, and told
her she would be a queen one day; and he said it to
Robert the Bruce, who eventually became king. He also
called forth the greatness in the Scots that followed
him. And they defeated their oppressors. Every one of
us needs people that believe in us. And when we find
that it galvanize the strength that God has already
placed within.

I suppose if you transfer that to evangelism, we are
actually calling people to their true potential for
greatness. To be a disciple of the Lord is perhaps the
highest calling that any of us can ever have in this
life. So often in evangelism, Christians try to use
guilt for sin to manipulate a conversion. But these
conversions can be very shallow. But to tell someone
that he or she was created to be a king and a priest,
to be a holy dwelling place of the Most High GodÂ…that
is something. If they can catch a vision of the love
of God and what He created us to be, then they really
have something to commit to.

I hope this post is not too long. I will take time to
respond to the comments on original sin after I read a
few more.

Laurence Schell



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Advent reminder (for those who follow 'weeks')(one more candle to go!)

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

Laurence - You over whelm me! But then again, I'm not really sure I need to respond! You seem to be on the Celtic Quest of discovery and doing very will all by yourself...

I fear it will take me a little bit longer to reply to the Original Sin posting. So many questions... so little time! Each thing you have asked or pondered is worthy of a good answer. Unfortunately, the trouble with many years of study is not that I forget what I have learned but I cannot remember where I have learned it! I would like to give you the sources as well as my opinions. Yet my mind is a blur with the things I have read. Is it Morgan (Pelagius), is it Eriugena? Did I get this from O'Donohue or Newell!? Unfortunately, Celtic Christianity is not like Evangelicalism or Catholicism... There is no one book for Systematic Theology to turn to! So I am endeavoring to 'back track' my beliefs so you can choose for yourself and not rely on my faulty memory.

Some of the things in your most recent post about evangelism reminded me of something we discussed at another time in another place perhaps. You might like to get a copy of The Celtic Way of Evangelism by George G. Hunter. It is about the differences in approach between the historic Missions (Celtic and Roman) and their various approaches to winning souls. We, today, in the West, are products mostly of the Roman Mission to Europe. But the Celts had a much better success rate by using an approach that we should emulate today. I think you will find it valuable! The other book I recommend to you is Desire of the Everlasting Hills by Thomas Cahill. You may recognize his name from How the Irish Saved Civilization Towards the end of the book, I was challenged in a way like no other to 'get out there' instead of just ministering in the Church. It reminds me of the rhetoric of the 'post modern' followers to be active in your faith. As a Celt, I see it plainly now but back in the beginning, it was a radical challenge!

Fr Jim - Go raibh maith agat! (Thank you!) I'm still not sure what Orthodox mystagogy is yet but I'm glad you liked my thoughts. Proverbs 17:28 is a constant consolation to me and I try to follow it often. Being Irish by birth, however, gives me a world of difficulty with it! Thankfully, even by the laws of statistics, I have to get something right occasionally.

Scotty - Great job on your posting about Original Sin! I can tell that you put a lot of study and effort into it. I am still considering it though and will respond when I get the time. Thanks again...

Thank you all for your participation here. May the Lord of Enlightenment bless us all ...

Slan
Marty

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Monday Night Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

For your Spirit woven into the fabric of creation
for the eternal overlapping with time
and the life of earth interlaced with heaven's vitality
I give you thanks, O God.
For your untamed creativity
your boundless mystery
and you passionate yearning
planted deep in the soul of every human being
I give you thanks
Grant me the grace to reclaim these depths
to uncover this treasure
to liberate these longings
and in being set free in my own spirit
to act for the well-being of the world.

Recall the events of the day and pray for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

O Brother Jesus
who wept at the death of a friend
and overturned tables in anger at wrong
let me not be frightened by the depths of passion.
Rather let me learn the love and anger
and wild expanses of soul within me
that are true expressions of your grace and wisdom.
And assure me again that in becoming more like you
I came closer to my true self
made in the image of outpouring Love
born of the free eternal Wind.

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
B>Tuesday Morning Prayer</B>

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

The world is alive with your goodness, O God,
it grows green from the ground
and ripens into the roundness of fruit.
Its taste and its touch enliven my body and stir my soul.
Generously given
profusely displayed
your graces of goodness pour forth from the earth.
As I have received
so free me to give.
As I have been granted
so may I give.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

I have tasted the fruit of the earth, O God.
I have seen autumn trees hang heavily with heaven's gifts.
I have known people pregnant with your spirit of generosity.
Let these be guides to me this day.
And my Mary who know her womb filled with
your goodness
teach me the wisdom that is born amidst pain.
May I know that deeper than any fallowness in me
is the seed planted in the womb of my soul
May I know that greater than any barrenness in the world
is the harvest to be justly shared.

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Laurence,

I think I am going to have to reply to your posts differently than I intended. A truly exegetical response may be just what you want but I fear I am not capable of it! (and it would probably be long and boring!) Instead, please permit me to respond to you with what I know and how I perceive God's workmanship in us!

This discussion, goes back to the Early Church and, as yet, is still unsettled by some. Original Sin was a product of the Roman Churches endeavor to standardize doctrine and develop a better understanding of the purpose of the Church here on Earth. St Augustine was the main proponent and he was opposed by Pelagius, a member of the Celtic Church. Although Pelagius was eventually branded a heretic the actual argument between them had more to do with God's grace. Pelagius was wrong about that!

In Scotty's reply, he mentioned that the consequences of Adam's sin (fall, missing the mark) did affect us all. It changed Creation! New rules had to be established now because humans could not longer live in harmony with God. Just as a child who manages to break the family TV affects the whole household by his actions. And new rules must be set in order to prevent it from happening again. He will always live with the remembrance and consequence of his actions. But it cannot be transferred to anyone else... it was his alone! Pelagius's point on this was that "neither virtue or vice are part of our birth"!

However, Fr Jim was also correct in his original point about
'predisposition' towards sin. Even thought Adam and Eve were created perfect and blessed by God as 'good', they chose to sin. Why? Perhaps it was mere curiosity... or willfulness... or even pride! What are your reasons for sinning? That is what we share with them... our humanity! One of my favorite verses comes from that last line in the Book of Judges, (21:25) "In those days there was not king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Personally, I think that is the heart of the issue... we choose to 'do our own thing'! It is inherent! It is part of our humanity! part of our 'soulish' way of looking at the world. The choices we make are the same as Adam and Eve's... either we serve God or we serve ourselves. That is consequence of the free will that is also necessary for choosing to serve God with all our hearts, minds and souls! We cannot escape our humanity, we cannot 'control' or 'suppress' it! We can only conform it to the Light we discover within us!

That is why some people object to our First Harmony of discovering Christ within! They have stated that we must discover God first! God 'out there' is never quite as real as the 'Light of Christ' within. If we learn to discover Him and all He has made within us, we learn to see Him for Who He Is, the Second Harmony. That's just how we operate! Finally, when we are completely in love with Him, it is so much easier to see Him not only in others but also in the world around us, mankind and nature! This was the heart of Celtic Christianity! Learning to be one with God, to conform ourselves to His design for our lives. (sorry, I have strayed a bit!)
It is not that we have 'inherited' our sinful (fallen) nature from Adam, we are just make of the same stuff!!! For some stupid reason, we seem to always want to do things our own way! Even after we have learned of our own foolishness... we'll go back and do it again! That's just our humanity and we need to learn a different way of dealing with it. Allow me to borrow a semi-modern concept - WWJD? We hate some things about ourselves, suppression doesn't work! Why can't I get rid of the things in me I hate and cause me to sin? Plainly put, you can' undo what God has given you! Nor are you supposed to! We were designed with all the strengths that God knew we would need. Everything within us is for His glory and honor! Everything He put within us is meant to serve Him!

In John O'Donohue's book Anam Cara, I learned something very important - To love myself! Every thing within us was put there by Christ Himself... I am required to love it! Yet there are many things I hate! To learn to see your own 'failings' and God's purpose for them in your life is what is called for. To see yourself as a 'good' product instead of only 'half-good, half-bad' is to learn to see His handiwork. To accept those things I hate... and to love them as a gift of God... is to learn to love yourself. Now, I am not talking about accepting or excusing our 'failings' as being acceptable. Rather, learn God's purposes for those things within you! When you do, you will see His Wisdom and understand Hid Design for us and all mankind. You will then develop a greater love for God and more compassion for all His Children! This is the secret to Celtic Evangelism! But first you must learn to see Him within yourself.

You asked about 'death' in the world. Well, do you see death as a punishment or as a reward? Death should really be our lifelong friend. In learning to conform ourselves to Christ, we need to learn to die! Our daily routine should be death to self! My favorite prayer from A.W. Tozer goes something like this, "Lord, that I may die so that you might live in me!". When we are conformed to Christ, our purpose in life, we can have true fellowship with Him. By then we will have allowed His Nature to arise within us and we will be like Him (true holiness). The Orthodox like the word Theosis, being like God. Protestants have the idea of 'Sanctification'. However you view it, we are to follow Christ's lesson of 'Love', a death to Himself! Rick Warren states that our purpose in life is to learn to fellowship with Christ. We cannot go into the next life and expect to fellowship with a 'stranger'. Here is where we get to practice on learning to do things His Way.

Well, I think I will stop here to give you a chance to consider all that I am saying. It may be a little different than you have thought before or it may ring true enough for you to feel you have to home to your 'self'. The truth of our lives here is that we cannot exist without our humanity, as flawed as it may appear. The task of this life is to see Christ in it! Then we are called to share that Light with those who need it. I would suggest to you though, to use the original meaning of sin, hamartano - to miss the mark Too often we accept the concept of sin being nothing but 'degradation and disease'. God never intended that to be part of how we see ourselves, His creation!

May the Lord of Light, the Father of Creation, shine brightly in us all today...

Slan,
Marty

Greetings all,

Sorry... a correction is needed. In the seventh paragraph of my post it should read "We can't undo what God has given you!".

Slan

Marty you said "To learn to see your own 'failings' and God's purpose for them in your life is what is called for."

:)

"In my weakness, You are made Perfect." it's a little 'mantra' i like to repeat when i get frustrated with myself. this is why i like discussion. there are so many different ways to say the same thing, and yet every different way can give you a whole new perspective on the same idea. while i have been saying this little phrase for a while, your comments gave it a new light. thanks!

~Gina

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Tuesday Night Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

For earth's cycles and seasons
for the rising of spring and the growing summer
for autumn's fullness and the hidden depths of winter
thanks be to you, O Christ.
For the life force in seeds buried in the ground
that shoot green and bear fruit and fall to the earth
thanks be to you.
Let me learn from the earth's cycles of birthing
the times and seasons of dying.
Let me learn of you in the soil of my soul, O Christ,
and your journey through death to birth.
Let me learn of you in my soul this night
and the journey of letting go.

Recall the events of the day and pray for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

Glory be to you O Holy Seed of all that has been born
for earth, sea and sky in vibrancy of colour.
Glory be to you O Light of Life
for your liberation of earth's bound treasures.
Glory be to you O River of delight
surging through the heart of creation.
Renew me this night in the depths of sleep,
set free my dreams of the unknown.
Safeguard this time of resting, O God,
enfold me in the darkness of the night.

MARANATHA!
COME, LORD JESUS!

Hi, Laurence--

Very thoughtful questions! I particularly like the
one about the usefulness of selfishness.

Okay, here goes...
>
> Fr. Jim said we have a predisposition to sin. I
> would
> like to know where that predisposition comes from.
> Does it come from the fall of Adam? Or does it come
> from the way we were created?
>
It comes from the Fall. Our first parents were created
perfect.
>
> If from Adam, how? In what way does Adam's sin
> dispose
> us to sin? Is it because sin entered the world and
> therefore influenced us? Or did it somehow make us
> spiritually ill?
>
Both/and.

If all of my ancestors have brown eyes and red hair, I
will have them, too. All of our ancestors have Pride,
which is the "original sin" which opens the door to
all the others. So, we inherit it.

Now, I'm not saying there's a "pride gene." I'm
saying that our DNA overall is fallen, and we inherit
"bad code," as it were.

So, we're born with the congenital illness of
pride. As a result, all our works, thoughts,
actions and institutions are touched with it.
C.S. Lewis, in "Mere Christianity," points out that
the noblest man at his noblest moment is in a
condition that would condemn an angel to hell.

So, the defect we were born with is inevitably
part of the environment we create, which only
encourages the illness by making it seem "normal."
>
> If from creation, how could God call everything He
> made good?
>
Exactly.
>
> I am not suggesting any blame to God for
> our sins. But is our selfishness a created part of
> our
> nature? Or is selfishness a disposition that came to
> us as a result of Adam's disobedience? Could
> selfishness in some sense be considered good?
>
Just a great question! and it gets to the heart of the
entire matter!

Everything God created is good. The very same
selfishness that makes me pass up a beggar on the
street, drives me to protect my family from harm.
Of course, on the other hand, it is the selfishness
that pervades the world that puts the potential for
harm there in the first place.

My self-consciousness is a good thing. Properly
used, it makes me seek to be more open before,
communicative with and responsive to, God.

Corrupted, it becomes self-centeredness, which means
that instead of God being at the center of things for
me, I am.

But, this self-centeredness is not the created part.
it is the fruit of the corruption of the created part.
>
> What about the presence of death in the world? Did
> the
> entrance of death somehow predispose us to sin?
>
The other way 'round. The entrance of sin brought
about death.
>
> Do we have a "sin nature"?
>
Yes, We inherit it from Adam.
>
> Or were we truly created
> good
>
Yes. We are born sinless. However, "good" and
"perfect" are not the same thing. We are sinless
not because we won't sin, but because we haven't, yet.
>
> and have we truly inherited a good nature from
> Adam?
>
No. We have inherited a fallen nature from Adam.
That's the reason that even though we are born
sinless, we don't stay that way.
>
> And isn't the nature we inherit from Christ
> even
> better?
>
We do not inherit a nature from Christ. We undergo
transformation as a result of being in relationship
with Him.

It is true that, having received the Holy Spirit, our
nature is improved. What's more, it is ever
improving (if we attend to the things of God),
and growing in holiness. Unfortunately, however, our
physical nature is still fallen and temptable.

Hope this helps.

Blessings--

Fr. Jim <><


 
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I think that Gina’s question concerning Baptism also hits to the root of this Original sin. In Gen 2:17 God says:
 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Again this is not about the law as we now try to associate with sin. It gets back to the fall of Lucifer and as Fr. Jim mentioned; Pride, the pride of eternal knowledge. A knowledge even God does not process. God knows no evil. The only way for one to know both good and evil would be to have both the spirit of God and the spirit of Lucifer within them. And here lies the eternal battle for human souls. Having allowed the knowledge of evil to enter into humans, opened the door for death to enter. God can not have any evil in His presence so there for death is the only way.

This would also explain how and why a child, having never committed any sin (law), is still sinful by nature. For from the time a child is born, he/she will die, a fact that can not be denied. That is something that can not be stopped. Of every birth that takes place, a death will follow. Nothing the person does gets him there, nor can get him out of it.

Baptism brings the promise of eternal life back into the person’s life. It is not about the public proclamation or the submersion in water. It is the Word in the water that makes it the Holy Sacrament it is. Without the Word a person simply gets wet. It is the Word that is spoken at baptism and the word that is taught through out the person’s life that brings him/her eternal life. There comes a point in everyone’s life when they will be confronted with the eternal question; “Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God?” Having never heard the Word, a person can either accept or reject. But when presented with the question one must answer. “For every knee shall bend……”

So the big question we always hear today; “Is Jesus the only Way?” Scripture tells us the Jesus is the Word made flesh and dwelt among us.” No one else to my knowledge ever made nor can make this claim. So my final answer is YES. Amen.

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Wednesday Morning Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

For the first showings of the morning light
and the emerging outline of the day
thanks be to you, O God.
For earth's colours drawn forth by the sun
its brilliance piercing clouds of darkness
and shimmering through leaves and flowing waters
thanks be to you.
Show to me this day
amidst life's dark streaks of wrong and suffering
the light that endures in every person.
Dispel the confusions that cling close to my soul
that I may see with eyes washed by your grace
that I may see myself and all people
with eyes cleansed by the freshness of the new day's light.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

O Sun behind all suns
O Soul within all souls
grant me the grace of the dawn's glory
grant me the strength of the sun's rays
that I may be well in my own soul
and part of the world's healing this day
that I may be well in my own soul
and part of the world's healing this day.

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Scotty - my brother... I need to question you on something from your last post! In it you said "Pride, the pride of eternal knowledge. A knowledge even God does not process. God knows no evil." It almost sounds that you believe that God is NOT omniscient. Is that what you are saying? Or, are you using 'knowing' in a biblical sense of 'being intimate with'?
I did like your analogy of "It is the Word in the water that makes it the Holy Sacrament it is.". "The Word in the water"... never thought of that! Very Good!

Okay... have a great day all!

Slan
Marty

Marty you wrote:
Scotty - my brother... I need to question you on something from your last post! In it you said "Pride, the pride of eternal knowledge. A knowledge even God does not process. God knows no evil." It almost sounds that you believe that God is NOT omniscient. Is that what you are saying? Or, are you using 'knowing' in a biblical sense of 'being intimate with'?

Gen 3:5 says "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Even though God may know of both good and evil, He can have no part in anything that is evil. It is not His nature. God is not only omniscient, but He is also omnipotent. God knew that He created us with free will and as long as there is free will, there will always be risk of the fall, as in the case with Lucifer. I would have to say that God does not have free will in the sense that we have free will. He is not by His very nature free to do evil. He may know evil but does not speak its language. Much the same as I may know that Spanish may exist, but I do not know how to speak it.

You said:
I did like your analogy of "It is the Word in the water that makes it the Holy Sacrament it is.". "The Word in the water"... never thought of that! Very Good!

Lutheranism 101 my brother.

Hi All:

I've been reading the posts and find them very
stimulating. He is a long response to Marty's. I will
try to respond to others in the next day or so.

Marty wrote:

>In Scotty's reply, he mentioned that the consequences
of Adam's sin >(fall, missing the mark) did affect us
all. It changed Creation! New >rules had to be
established now because humans could not longer >live
in harmony with GodÂ…

I do believe that the fall of man changed the
environment in which we live. The world became a
sinful and hostile place. I think because of that
change there are strong environmental influences upon
us to sin now that Adam and Eve did not face. So, in a
way, because of their sin, we are under more pressure
to sin than they were. WhatÂ’s more one of the
strongest environmental pressures of all is parents.
And the first parents, Adam and Eve, had already
chosen sin for themselves. Is it any wonder that one
of their sons murdered his brother?

>Pelagius's point on this was that "neither virtue or
vice are part of our >birth"!

I agree with Pelagius on this. But I think we need
GodÂ’s grace to keep from sinning and to rescue us from
our own downfall once we have sinned.

>Even though Adam and Eve were created perfect and
blessed by God >as 'good', they chose to sin. Why?
Perhaps it was mere curiosityÂ…or >willfulnessÂ…or even
pride!...

I am not sure I agree with the idea that Adam was
created perfect. In what way was he perfect? He seems
childish and naïve in the Genesis account. I wonder if
he and Eve were created full-grown of if they were
mere children at the time of the fall.

I am also thinking of a scripture in 1 Corinthians
that seems to indicate that Adam was not perfect. In
chapter 15, verses 44 through 49, Paul says the first
Adam was created a soulish, or natural, being. Paul
wrote: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a
spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is
a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man
Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a
quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is
spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward
that which is spiritual. The first man is of the
earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are
heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the
earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

If you know a little Greek, or even have access to a
good lexicon, youÂ’ll find that the word Paul chose
does not have a good connotation. Soulish is roughly
synonymous with carnal. At least Paul was saying that
the stuff we are made of is inferior to the spiritual.

Maybe being soulish wasnÂ’t as bad as the Greek mind
would have perceived it. God made man that way, and He
saw it as good. But perfect is a different matter. If
Adam and Eve were perfect, then why would they sin? On
the other hand, if man inherited an evil body and soul
from Adam, then why would Christ choose to be
incarnated in human flesh? Adam mustÂ’ve been good, but
imperfect; and Christ inherited this good, but not
perfect nature, and lived a sinless life because of
His perfect, divine nature in an imperfect human
vessel.

In studying this and thinking it out, IÂ’ve come to the
conclusion that EveÂ’s sin was probably not motivated
by pride. I know that is the traditional
interpretation, and we are expected to believe it. But
in what way was her desire to be like God pride? Jesus
commanded: Be perfect as your Father in heaven is
perfect. Eve was created with the potential to be like
God. She was created in His likeness, but it was an
immature likeness. Imagine, she was like a child, and
she saw that she was not like God yet, but she desired
to be. She saw that God was much wiser and much
greater than she. And she may have known that she was
created to be like God. The devil comes along and
tells her that she can be like God, and without Him.
If there was any pride involved it was in her decision
to go independent. But it seems more likely that the
serpent took advantage of EveÂ’s created nature,
including her desires and sense of destiny, and of her
child-like naïveté to lure her into sin. The hook that
he used was that she ought to be like God. And indeed
she ought, but not that way.

EveÂ’s desire to be like God was somewhat akin to a
little childÂ’s desire to be just like Mommy or Daddy.
Imagine if some interloper came along and told that
child that all he to do was ingest a whole bottle of
Mommy or DaddyÂ’s medicine, and he wouldnÂ’t need Mommy
or Daddy any more because he would be like them
himself. That child would die.

>Personally, I think that is the heart of the issueÂ…we
choose to 'do our >own thing'! It is inherent! It is
part of our humanity! part of our >'soulish' way of
looking at the world. The choices we make are the
>same as Adam and Eve'sÂ…either we serve God or we
serve >ourselvesÂ…

I believe we are tempted in the exact same way and
fall in the same way as Adam and Eve fell. Only the
particulars change. I really like the idea of being at
peace with our humanity.

>It is not that we have 'inherited' our sinful
(fallen) nature from Adam, >we are just made of the
same stuff!!! For some stupid reason, we >seem to
always want to do things our own way! Even after we
have >learned of our own foolishnessÂ…we'll go
>back and do it again! That's just our humanity and we
need to learn a >different way of dealing with itÂ…

So what is that way? For me it is changing my focus. I
find when I get my focus on the idea that I am a
sinner, it strengthens the tendency to sin. But when I
focus on that idea that I am a new creation and that
Christ lives in me, the chains begin falling away.
Second Corinthians 3:18 says: But we all, with open
face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. There is a
principle that we become more like what we behold. So
focusing on sin doesnÂ’t help.

>We hate some things about ourselves, suppression
doesn't work! Why >can't I get rid of the things in me
I hate and cause me to sin? Plainly >put, you can't
undo what God has given you! Nor are you supposed >to!
We were designed with all the strengths that God knew
we would >need.

I agree with you. Suppression is not the answer. Maybe
we are supposed to learn to use the things God has
given us in our nature in the way He intended. When we
focus on our own sins, it leads to attempts at
suppression. But when we focus on Christ in us the
hope of gater Christ-likeness.

>Every thing within us was put there by Christ
Himself...I am required >to love it! Yet there are
many things I hate! To learn to see your own
>'failings' and God's purpose for them in your life is
what is called for. >To see yourself as a 'good'
product instead of only 'half-good, half->bad' is to
learn to see His handiwork. To accept those things I
hateÂ…>and to love them as a gift of GodÂ…is to learn to
love yourself. Now, I >am not talking about accepting
or excusing our 'failings' as being >acceptable.
Rather, learn God's purposes for those things within
you! >When you do, you will see His Wisdom and
understand His Design for >us and all mankind. You
will then develop a greater love for God and >more
compassion for all His Children!

In the theology of much of Christendom I am taught to
see myself as somehow fatally flawed or as damaged
goods, like a woman who had been raped might see
herself in a culture that demanded she be a virgin on
her wedding night.

I donÂ’t think the fall of man was a total. We cannot
attain salvation on our own. But our Creator loves us
and has not abandoned us because of our sin. He is
painstakingly restoring the image of God in us the way
an artist restores a damaged masterpiece. God couldÂ’ve
made mankind a throwaway, but He did not. ShouldnÂ’t we
see the value in ourselves as He does?

>You asked about 'death' in the world. Well, do you
see death as a >punishment or as a reward? Death
should really be our lifelong >friend. In learning to
conform ourselves to Christ, we need to learn to >die!
Our daily routine should be death to
>self! My favorite prayer from A.W. Tozer goes
something like this, >"Lord, that I may die so that
you might live in me!"

I do not see death as a punishment nor a reward. Death
is the natural consequence of being cut off from the
Tree of Life through the original manÂ’s sin and
expulsion from the Garden. A lot of Christians believe
Adam was created immortal. I believe he had that
potential through obedience to and dependence upon
God. But he also had the created potential to die. We
were created so that we depended upon something
outside of ourselves for immortality. Man had to
ingest something like water from the fountain of
youth. Indeed we were meant to eat that food, and not
the food from the other Tree.

It is interesting, too, that God set an angel with a
flaming sword to guard the path to the Tree of Life.
This was so that man would not live forever in his
sin. But there is a reason for the flaming sword: You
canÂ’t get to the Tree of Life unless you are willing
to die. What a paradox!

The quote from Tozer reminds me of a song by Keith
Green, in which he sang, I wanna die that You might
give/Your life to me that I might live. I think he was
a fan of Tozer, which I should read.

A thought that I felt God speak in my heart the other
day: You can never be truly free until you conquer
your fear of death.


Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

We have made it through the inspection on our house and had our offer accepted on the house of our choice. Loan approval just came through. The inspection showed just what we thought it would show. We&#B9;ll have some things to fix (hey, why do they think the microwave doesn&#B9;t work? It&#B9;s just the LCD. We use it like blind people!) I will indeed have my house with the trees, and my own study. It&#B9;s such a blessing! My husband would say the good thing is the big room for hosting a small group studyB;his biggest desire. My son will like the huge basement where he can set up his guitar and amp. The dog will love chasing squirrels (none where we live now.)

I haven&#B9;t known you all very long, but it is very clear that besides being Celtic Christians, you are devoted and sincere followers of God. That didn&#B9;t really come out rightB;not that CC&#B9;s aren&#B9;t! I haven&#B9;t been able to follow all stuff on original sin, but I think you all have the discussion under control!

Many blessings!
Cindy
http://www.brigidofireland.com

Ooo. Sorry about the weird characters. I guess I have to send email plain text?? I'm posting on the Web site now.

Cindy

Greetings all,

Laurence - I read your posting carefully so I could respond... but it seems you have answered all your own questions! And pretty well I might add! The one thing I need to address is your question regarding Adam's 'perfect' state. In that case I simply meant that his physical body, fresh from God's own hands, was still free from the foibles of life that we all share. His nature, like our own, was still very human and therefore in need of learning to live completely for God. I think that should take care of your successive thoughts and determinations but I await your further review of the rest of the responses.

As you can see, we are united in Christ but our approaches are different! Our concepts are all pretty close to each other but we express ourselves very differently. Please, never hesitate to challenge us for a better understanding.

Cindy - Great news about the house. I'm so glad for you and your family (especially the dog!) Thanks for sharing it with us, some of us have really been praying that all would be well with the 'inspection'.

As for the characters, yes, plain type works best! I have found that not all HTML codes work well here. Some work onsite but create problems with the individual emails we receive. I will attempt to post the link I was given for the ones used on QT. If it doesn't make it through, please contact me at mfjfarrell@yahoo.com and I'll send the link directly. So far, I found that I can imbed the codes in my plain text emails but they will only activate on site, not it the messages sent to each of you. Here's the link - http://www.werbach.com/barebones/barebones.html#structure I hope it makes it thought!

Slan
Marty

Laurence you said, "I am not sure I agree with the idea that Adam was
created perfect. In what way was he perfect? He seems
childish and naïve in the Genesis account. I wonder if
he and Eve were created full-grown of if they were
mere children at the time of the fall."

but isnt that naivity and child-likeness what made them so precious to GOD?
Christ said to be like the little children. he would have been full of wonder and awe for the creation of GOD. in the same way that a 2 or 3 year old is astounded by new things, Adam would have been amazed at everthing b/c it was ALL new. Literally. even if his phsyical body was adult, he would still have been child-like in that he was new. we are "worldly" b/c we have lived in the world. it's not "new" to us. but to him it would have been the same experience as an adult as it would have been if he had been created as a little child.

also,

"In studying this and thinking it out, IÂ’ve come to the
conclusion that EveÂ’s sin was probably not motivated
by pride. I know that is the traditional
interpretation, and we are expected to believe it. But
in what way was her desire to be like God pride? Jesus
commanded: Be perfect as your Father in heaven is
perfect. Eve was created with the potential to be like
God. She was created in His likeness, but it was an
immature likeness. Imagine, she was like a child, and
she saw that she was not like God yet, but she desired
to be. She saw that God was much wiser and much
greater than she. And she may have known that she was
created to be like God. The devil comes along and
tells her that she can be like God, and without Him.
If there was any pride involved it was in her decision
to go independent. But it seems more likely that the
serpent took advantage of EveÂ’s created nature,
including her desires and sense of destiny, and of her
child-like naïveté to lure her into sin. The hook that
he used was that she ought to be like God. And indeed
she ought, but not that way.

EveÂ’s desire to be like God was somewhat akin to a
little childÂ’s desire to be just like Mommy or Daddy.
Imagine if some interloper came along and told that
child that all he to do was ingest a whole bottle of
Mommy or DaddyÂ’s medicine, and he wouldnÂ’t need Mommy
or Daddy any more because he would be like them
himself. That child would die.'

I know i maybe shouldnt have reposted that, but seriously this is the best theory on the fall and Eve that i have ever heard. i totally agree.
i'm really glad you posted that, i'm going to put it into "my documents" on my computer for reference.

also
"It is interesting, too, that God set an angel with a
flaming sword to guard the path to the Tree of Life.
This was so that man would not live forever in his
sin. But there is a reason for the flaming sword: You
canÂ’t get to the Tree of Life unless you are willing
to die. What a paradox!"

also heading into my references file.

thanks for the thoughts!

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Wednesday Night Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

That you have placed a harmony of lights in the heavens
that night is followed by day
and the glowing of the moon by the glistening of the sun
thanks be to you, O God.
That you have placed a harmony of lights in my soul
that there is gentleness and firmness of strength
intuitive knowing and enlightened reasoning
thanks be to you.
Let me be so sure of your law of harmony in all things
that I seek it in my own depths
and in knowing it in my inner life
yearn for it in the torn relationships of my world
man and woman
black and white
sun and moon in a harmony of movement.

Recall the events of the day and pray for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

In the beginning, O God,
you placed seeds in the womb of the earth.
On the surface of the earth and in its seas and skies
you made male and female of every species.
And above the earth
you called the two great lights into relationship.
Renew me this night
in the fruitful intermingling that you have woven into creation
that I may wake to the morning
enlivened by love
that I may wake to the morning
enlivened by love.

MARANATHA!
COME, LORD JESUS!

Dear in Christ,

A word about pride and original sin.

The "original sin" the one which we inherit and which
continues to plague us still, is pride: that is,
the will to act independently of God, according to
will and perceptions we identify as "our own."

It is the devil who brought this about in Eve, by
persuading her that, by deciding to go her "own way,"
as distinct from the way God had set out before her,
she would become "like Him."

The temptation, therefore, was not to defiance, it was
to a supposed good thing. The way the serpent put it
was to give Eve a way to define her act of defiance to
herself, so that she could identify it to herself as a
good thing.

Then, later, when it became time for Adam, as Eve's
lord and protector, to jump in front of her and
repent, and ask forgiveness, and cover her (for he was
indeed her covering, and could have saved us all
a lot of trouble by sgepping up to it), the effects of
disobedience were alrady active within him. He chose
to look out for himself and to throw his wife under
the cosmic bus, declaring, "She did it! She
tempted me!"

Again, the survival instinct that was stirred was
turned, not to everlasting ends through repentance,
but to selfish ends. Pride of self took precedence
over obedience to vocation.
 
It's a recognizable enough tactic, today: abortion
isn't the murder of a baby, it's simply "planned
parenthood," the fruit of "the deeply personal making
of a choice." Handing out condoms like party-favors
and encouraging children to watch pornographic movies
in our public schools isn't the corruption of youth,
it's simply "encouraging safe and responsible sex,"
because "they" are going to "choose to do it anyway."
Teenage boys do not exhort their girlfriends to hop in
the backseat with them and defy the commandments
of God, but to "be their own person." Then, if God
brings about a human life as a result, the boy
quickly enough separates himself from the situation
and urges the girl, "Take the initiative and choose
not to mess up the rest of your life."

So, in areas from sex to stealing (as in a tax
accountant's challenge to "stand out" and "think
outside the box") to murder, it is pride that tells us
it's okay to give ourselves the right to "make
our own choices" apart from the choices God plainly
tells us He would have us make.

It is pride that moves us to ask, "What can I get away
with?" instead of, "What is holy?"

If it were not for pride, I would not sin. I would
have no internal mechanism for giving myself
permission to indulge in lust, perfidy, wrathfulness,
covetousness, calumny or slothfulness.

Augustinianly, the Roman Church has concentrated on
the genetic transmission of the results of the
original sin and conflated this with the sin, itself.

Therefore, we are said by the Romans (and the
Protestants, who are basically Roman Catholic
scholastics in their theological approach), that
we are born with "the stain of Original Sin." That
is, we inherit Adam's guilt, as well as his
fallenness.

Orthodox don't much use the term "Original Sin," for
fear of evoking along with it this innovative
doctrine.

In terms of defining what the basic, besetting defect
is that drives the rest of our sinful behavior,
however, I think it is a useful thing to describe
pride as "the original sin," the nature of the defect
we inherit.

Just as an aside, the Romans have a doctrine of "the
immaculate conception," which states that Mary the
Mother of God (which defines the fact that Jesus was
Divine at His Conception) was "born without stain of
original sin."

To this, Orthodox reply, "Certainly Mary was
immaculately conceived--and so was everybody else."

However, she was--and we were--as the Bible states,
"conceived in sin, and in sin our mothers bore us,"
because we inherit the fallen nature of our
ancestors.

So, do we inherit a "good nature" from Adam? I said
"no," before, but that needs some clarification.

It is the nature we inherit from Adam that gives us
the tendency to sin. However, we are still born
free from guilt, sinless because we have not yet
deliberately set ourselves and our will apart as
sovereign.

The "selfishness" of a baby, which most people use to
illustrate "original sin," is not sinful at all. It
is the simply an unguarded effort to communicate
basic needs: food, clothing, shelter and
companionship. Babies can't talk yet, so they have
to yell and--to our perceptions--insist. This
insistence is not in the service of setting themselves
apart, but of mantaining the order of the relationship
in which they have been placed.

Sin enters the picture later, when the child, having
acquired the capacity to know grabbing is "bad," and
to keep from grabbing if he wants to, grabs anyway.

Later, when he becomes a socialist lusting after
preferment or a capitalist lusting after money
or a philanthropist or preacher lusting after
recognition, the grabbing will have matured.

At that point, when we know who we are, when we have a
self to give up, Christ calls us to give up ourselves
to His process of pruning and sanctification/Theosis,
and seek maturity in Him.

in Christ,

Fr. Jim <><
  



 
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From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Thursday Morning Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

That you formed my body in the darkness of the womb
and fashioned every creature from the soil of the earth
thanks be to you, O God.
That you knitted into my senses
a thirst for water and a hunger for food
and wove into every living being
desires for life
and pleasure in their satisfaction
thanks be to you.
Let me be alert
to the yearnings that you have placed within me
and let me know what will truly satisfy the desire of my heart.
Let me be attentive
to the yearning that you have planted in every human being
and let me be sure of what will fulfill them.
Let me be guided by your wisdom, O Christ,
let me be guided by your wisdom.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

The vitality of God be mine this day
the vitality of the God of life.
The passion of Christ be mine this day
the passion of the Christ of love.
The wakefulness of the Spirit be mine this day
the wakefulness of the Spirit of justice.
The vitality and passion and wakefulness of God be mine
that I may be fully alive this day
the vitality and passion and wakefulness of God
that I may be fully alive.

this was on my Daily Devotional site.
Marty and Scotty, sorry you've already seen this!
-------------------

Do You Really Love Him?

READ:

She has done a good work for Me —Mark 14:6
 
About this cover
If what we call love doesn’t take us beyond ourselves, it is not really love. If we have the idea that love is characterized as cautious, wise, sensible, shrewd, and never taken to extremes, we have missed the true meaning. This may describe affection and it may bring us a warm feeling, but it is not a true and accurate description of love.

Have you ever been driven to do something for God not because you felt that it was useful or your duty to do so, or that there was anything in it for you, but simply because you love Him? Have you ever realized that you can give things to God that are of value to Him? Or are you just sitting around daydreaming about the greatness of His redemption, while neglecting all the things you could be doing for Him? I’m not referring to works which could be regarded as divine and miraculous, but ordinary, simple human things— things which would be evidence to God that you are totally surrendered to Him. Have you ever created what Mary of Bethany created in the heart of the Lord Jesus? "She has done a good work for Me."

There are times when it seems as if God watches to see if we will give Him even small gifts of surrender, just to show how genuine our love is for Him. To be surrendered to God is of more value than our personal holiness. Concern over our personal holiness causes us to focus our eyes on ourselves, and we become overly concerned about the way we walk and talk and look, out of fear of offending God. ". . . but perfect love casts out fear . . ." once we are surrendered to God ( 1 John 4:18 ). We should quit asking ourselves, "Am I of any use?" and accept the truth that we really are not of much use to Him. The issue is never of being of use, but of being of value to God Himself. Once we are totally surrendered to God, He will work through us all the time.

Fr. Jim:

I wanted to let you know that I concede your point
about pride. What I have heard that I reacted against
is that Eve was proud for wanting to be like God. That
was not the original sin. But I thought about it after
I posted, and realized there was some pride in her
choice of independence from God. You made this very
clear.

I believe we were originally created to live in
dependence upon God. That is still, after the fall,
the only way that we will be like God and bring forth
righteousness.

Thanks for your responses. I very much enjoy your
posts and the knowledge you share with the group. I
may say more later when time permits.

Laurence Schell

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Please continue to pray for our house (the one we are selling) regarding the inspection findings. Little headaches. They seem big right now, but I am sure they are little.

Marty, your posting of the morning and evening prayers is helping me relax. I should memorize them, however. How soon I forget to trust God and start worrying again--as if I am in control!

Thanks.
Cindy

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Thursday Night Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

When it seemed there was no hope
I have seen your light in the eyes of a child.
When is seemed there was no joy
I have heard your delight in the voice of a friend.
When is seemed that life was stale
I have smelled the freshness of sunlight on my skin.
When all seemed emptiness
I have touched your presence in the hand of a stranger.
When the future seemed barren
I have tasted life's moisture on the lips of another.
Thanks be to you, O God,
for your embodied love.
Open my senses to your presence
that I may love you and care for you in all things.

Recall the events of the day and pray for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

You have given me eyes to see with, O God,
and ears to hear life's sounds and sorrows
and yet my seeing and hearing
like my tasting and touching
are wounded and weakened by failures.
As rest can heal the sores of a body
and sleep restores it strength
so may your angels of grace visit me in the night
that the senses of my soul may be born afresh.
Visit my dreams with messengers of grace, O God,
that the senses of my soul may be born again.

Cindy,

Boy do I know what you are going through. I can recall the house we sold in TN a few years ago. Boy did they get picky. I had to fix all the nail holes in the wall from the curtain rods, repaint the walls in the bedrooms, seal the threshold in the back, and a few other things. On our first house we sold several years before that, they told us we had to fix the lever for the tub stopper or take off $500 off closing. They knew full well it was an older house and the stopper was no longer made and it would cost a LOT to replace the whole draining system to fix it.

Then when we bought our home that got flooded, they basically told us this is it, take it or leave it. I have found out that all the games are based on the market in the area. But fear not, you will get through all this.

Scotty

Cindy,



Boy do I know what you are going through. I can recall the house we sold in TN a few years ago. Boy did they get picky. I had to fix all the nail holes in the wall from the curtain rods, repaint the walls in the bedrooms, seal the threshold in the back, and a few other things. On our first house we sold several years before that, they told us we had to fix the lever for the tub stopper or take off $500 off closing. They knew full well it was an older house and the stopper was no longer made and it would cost a LOT to replace the whole draining system to fix it.



Then when we bought our home that got flooded, they basically told us this is it, take it or leave it. I have found out that all the games are based on the market in the area. But fear not, you will get through all this.


Scotty

Ok that was QTs fault. Sorry

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Friday Morning Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

That wisdom was born with me in the womb
thanks be to you, O God.
That your ways have been written into
the human body and soul
there to be read and reverenced
thanks be to you.
Let me be attentive
to the truths of these living texts.
Let me learn
of the law etched into the whole of creation
that gave birth to the mystery of life
and feeds and renews it day by day.
Let me discern that law of love in my own heart
and in knowing it
obey it.
Let me be set free by love, O God.
Let me be set free to love.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

Glory be to you, O God,
for the gift of life
unfolding through those who have gone before me.
Glory be to you, O God,
for your life planted within my soul
and in every soul coming into the world.
Glory be to you, O God,
for the grace of new beginnings
placed before me in every moment and encounter of life.
Glory, glory, glory
for the grace of new beginnings in every moment of life.

From Celtic Benediction by J. Philip Newell
Friday Night Prayer

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

That life is conceived out of passion
and that your passion for life
has been sown within every human being
thanks be to you, O God.
For the desires in women and men for children
and the life-long yearnings of mothers and fathers
for the well-being of their sons and daughters
thanks be to you.
For the hopes of friends for one another
and the cries of whole societies and nations
for justice and freedom for their people
thanks be to you.
Rekindle in me your passion for life, O God,
rekindle in me your passion for life.

Recall the events of the day and pray for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

Renew me this night in the image of your love
renew me in the likeness of your mercy, O God.
May any refusal to forgive
that lingers with me from the day
any bitterness of soul
that hardens my heart
be softened by your graces of the night.
Renew me in the image of your love, O God,
renew me in the likeness of your mercy.