Welcome to CCS

Edited by author 01-30-2007 12:23 PM
What Celtic Christians Believe

We believe:

· in one God who is Creator of all things. He is infinitely perfect and eternally existing in three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Triune God.
· That Jesus, His Son, came to earth to offer Himself as a sacrifice so that we may have access to His Father.
· That the Holy Spirit is present throughout all Creation and that He indwells and empowers those who seek to live by His power
· That He reveals Himself in His creation, both mankind and the natural world and that He has given us stewardship and responsibility for both.
· That Scripture is God’s revealed Holy Word and by it we may be guided in matters of faith and conduct and we must study it to show ourselves approved.
· That the power of His Holy Spirit extends beyond the natural realm. That power is available to those He chooses to use for His purposes.
· That He loves us and desires that we live in harmony with Him, each other and all of His creation.
· That, while our humanity is bent toward selfishness, God created our natures to be good. Sin is a choice we make that takes us away from fellowship with God.
· That God’s love for us provides us with sufficient grace to restore ourselves back into harmony with Him.
· That, while ritual can be used to establish a relationship with God, it should never replace that relationship.
· That God is genderless yet He created us male and female for His own purposes. He delights equally in His creations and appreciates the ministry of both.
· That it is our responsibility to spend time with Him in fellowship and worship. As such we are to seek out quiet times and places in order to accomplish this.
· That His church is ‘without walls’ and worship should be performed there as often as is possible.
· That it is God’s desire to counsel us through His Spirit but that He will also provide an Anam Chara, in whom we may confide, as part of that fellowship.
· That it is God’s design that we live simply so that we may focus on Him and the work He has given us to do.
· That, while He loves us dearly for our own sake, He desires us to bring the message of His love to all who draw breath in this world. He would not suffer any of His creation not to have the opportunity to come into harmony with Him.

Martin,

I would like that, please do send me a copy.

I love technology. From the comfor of my front seat, I am able to view and post comments to this site on a device no larger than my hand. It really does help to have the ability to stay connected.

You were right about me being a man. I am a man who is a husband, a father and a son. There are days when I pause and wonder about the future, but mostly I hold no worries about "things" to come. My desire to learn more about God comes from a feeling of heavy responsibility to educate my kids. It's become obvious to me that I am accountable for what my children know about God, not the church as I once thought. My concern is knowing how to teach. As in most things, I strive to excel and I fear I fall short in knowing how to teach the mind of a child. I almost feel like I need to come up with with my own curriculum.

For those who haveyoung children or have had, what can I do to pass the message along?

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Common,

Good to see you back here, thanks for the post!

"is doctrine something you can develop on your own or is it essential to develop in a public forum" - I guess I would first have to ask, what it the point of 'personal doctrine'? Doctrine is a set of beliefs held in common by a group. In the Early Church, they would convene meetings called councils to discuss problems and set common standards so that the belief system was the same throughout the 'Christian' world. Here's a link to the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Earliest Church,
http://members.aol.com/DSeraphim/ecumenical.html. Things such as the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, profession of Faith (Diadache) as well as the opposition to certain heresies that occurred back then. (including Gnosticism, which some still follow!)

These councils determine who we are as a religious people. They are common to most Christian sects and denominations. (or should be) Despite the apparent diversity of Christians, there are still many beliefs that we hold in common! Here, on this board, many of us seek further understanding of this time period because it was the foundation of the Church which was still united back then as well as the beliefs of our Celtic forbearers! Studying Orthodoxy has helped us understand this time period as well because after the split of East and West, some doctrines and concepts were lost to each other.

Having worked on a Church Board for several years, I also know that many Churches rely heavily upon their 'Statement of Faith' to help determine a course of action when problems arise. This is a localized set of common beliefs unique to that Church or denomination. They act as 'doctrine' for that body of believers. In denominational churches, they have annual councils convene to discuss and re-evaluate policies and procedures as well as doctrinal responses to certain problems. (gays, abortion, 'worldliness', etc.) When I first began my Celtic Walk, I couldn't find anywhere that had what Celtic Christians believe, so I determined to compose one from the input of several other (more knowledgeable) Celtic Christians. Later, as CC grew on the web, I found several sites that listed them on their sites. Strangely enough, we did a good job of expressing the common beliefs of Celtic Christians! I offered to send it to you personally if you'd like last week, or perhaps I should post it here when the traffic slows down a bit! Here's a link to a site that I think did a good job in expressing our beliefs, http://www.ocbooks.co.nz/celtic/what.html. Please feel free to discuss any aspects of areas that you discover. Andrew Dunn is a well known Celtic Scholar!

Okay, that should get you a start! May the Lord of Enlightenment guide us through our day...

Slan
Marty

Laurence,

I've read your post a few times now and have successfully ingested the concepts and points that you brought to the table. I enjoyed reading your viewpoint and want to thank you for clearly defining another approach to doctrine. I do have one question for the board though, is doctrine something you can develop on your own or is it essential to develop in a public forum in order to maintain a proper viewpoint.

Martin,
I'm posting at night and I could've been shaving my legs. :)

-Common

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Journey and Promise

Book Two
Day Two

Hope and fear, laughter and tears have been part of our journey.
Joy and pain, longing and doubt meet on the pathway.
Often we do not believe, O God,
and sometimes we doubt that your promises can be true.
Grant us and our world the freedom to laugh, the courage to cry,
the heart to be open and the faith to believe.

"this is one of God's little jokes!"

it's one of my mom's favorites. she says i'm just like my dad (which can also be a source of stress for her!) when my dad gets frustrated with my attitude or how i didnt listen to him- my mom just chuckles and says "she got it from yoU!" hahhahahahha! funny b/c i'm a adopted child so it is definitely a case of nurture over nature!

the weekend was.... stressful. lots of fighting and crying. bad weekend. i mean, i had some fun with my mom, but steve and i got into it alot. and now i'm just exhausted.

the house is coming along, but much more slowly than it was last week. we are going to try to pick up the pace a little this week.

-Blessings
Gina

Hey Gina,

Looks like we hit a nerve!!! (hehehe) Just a few comments... I have lived long enough to see God's wisdom come full circle. Raising children is the most difficult task you will ever be asked to do! We are just so 'unprepared' for it! And there is nothing you can do but pray to get you through it. But there are rewards to it...

"i know someday i'll be cursed/blessed with a brat like me....." Never fear... this is one of God's little jokes! If you don't get things settled in your own life, He'll give you children with those qualities and then some!!! I had a daughter who complained, always questioned, and was / is the family 'drama queen'. Guess what? She has three daughters just like her! I had a son who was a control freak, a neatness freak and real love affair with money! Guess what he got? Five sons!!! Each with varying degrees of the same tendencies. He can't get away from himself and his short comings! Another son never had the ability to understand when you tried to explain things to him! He was very smart but just couldn't handle listening skills! Guess what happened when he had a son?

Get the point? (hehehe) If God can't get through to us... he'll give you just what you need, a reflection of yourself! So... before you start the family!!! By the way, how is the house coming. You mentioned a busy weekend. Anything you can share? I'm really glad you have found a church you really enjoy. The Church needs to be an extension of your home. Home is actually the first Church your children will experience. The will live what you believe! The Church you attend should reflect those values or the kids will see the discrepancy!

Well, thanks again for joining us today. Always great to hear from you...
Slan
Marty

Laurance said ". So are we walking on a narrow road, trying not to fall off in the ditches on either side? How did the Celts balance these things"

my thoughts are this - dont make pleasure your destination, make GOD you destination and enjoy the journey on the way.
also take no more than you need. excess is wrong. as scotty mentioned earlier (sorry i have been gone- i had a very ...... eventful weekend.) even though we are free from the old testament legalism, we should still question whether or not what we are doing is beneficial/

-----

Scotty,

wow! you are in the position that my mom was. at her church i had so many "run ins" with with adult members. and as a teenager at the time, i was not prone to being tactful in my response. so for instance when i wore my grungy clothes (WHICH WAS THE STYLE AT THE TIME!) to chruch- one of the adult women told me that she couldnt believe what i was wearing b/c in HER day (arrgh, i hated that phrase_) they had the respect for church to wear nice things (not the dirty looking jeans and baggy t-shirt i had on!). as a teen feeling slighted i said to her "well that was a looooooooong time ago". *sigh* i know someday i'll be cursed/blessed with a brat like me.....

or when i was like 14 and giggling with one of my friends in the back pew during a service a woman in front of me turned around and told us to shut up. well, what do teenagers do when restrictions have been placed? rebel. i started to leave in the middle of service to go sit in the bathroom and read. i hated having to hold my breath for fear of BREATHING to loud and disturbing someone!

 i started to really hate that church when i was a teenager b/c the prevailing attitude was "you believe it b/c we tell you to!" "dont ask questions" "and be grateful to be here!"
my faith was completely stagnant until i turned 19 b/c of that place. i was not ALLOWED to visit other churches.

some churches are not very youth friendly. they feel like children and teens need to act like adults in church (DONT RUN IN CHURCH!!!!) that is why i like the one i have been going to, people are free to talked quietly DURING the service. there is a coffe bar right outside the sactuary(50 cents a cup after the first free one- you are only paying for the church to resupply the coffee) and the teens have a building all to themselves! people get up to go pray throughout the service!(it's a very prayerful place) its SO friendly- but everything is 100% bible based. i really love this place, i feel like i could settle here and even raise kids in this church without feeling like they will be suppressed there! Jesus said let the little children come unto me! he didnt want the deciples to send them away b/c they were noisey! kids are loud! GOD made them that way! and if you show them that they can be loud in a respectful way they will remember that all thru their lives!

sorry i was ranting a little, this topic is very touchy to me.

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Common,

Nice to see you back here! So, I've picked up two clues to your identity, you communicate from work and you're a guy (shaves!) Welcome back!
I think you mentioned something important that Scotty should consider, God will lead us where he wants us! In my own case, my wife was a devoted Catholic. Couldn't even consider going to another Church without first attending her Sunday Mass. Something happened
one weekend though, they closed the Church for repairs and renovations! She learned to live with it and eventually couldn't even consider going back to one now. When the Lord lays something on your heart it is best to follow and not ask too many questions. He'll
change anything in you that prevents you from obeying Him if you really want to serve.

So, Scotty, the first thing you need to do it to determine where the Lord wants YOU! If He wants you to stay at the Lutheran Church then commit yourself to it as unto the Lord. If He wants you to move on, He will change your wife's heart no matter how entrenched you may think she is. But, I know that first step is always the toughest!

Well, my brother, our prayers will be with you in His leading.

Slan
Marty

Scotty,

I actually couldn't wait to get into work this morning to post a response. Something struck me this morning while I was shaving. You've posted about an obvious frustration with your church and I’d like to comment on some of the concerns that you voiced.

The first thing that came to mind was Paul. Weren't most of his letters-turned-books to the early church? From what I understand, his ministry as largely aimed at the young churches. He must have known that the church needed and still does need men/women who can influence the movement of the church. Did Paul himself go to church or was his "church" his active and effective ministry? You might think that any of your efforts in improving the church are in vain but the one thing you will never know until the time is right is the movement of God. The 10,000 ft. view is one of the hardest to obtain, esp. when you are in the midst of your situation, but rest assured God is not deaf and will move in the prayers of a righteous man.

About your wife's devotion to the Lutheran church, nothing is impossible. I applaud your wife's devotion in an age where one's attention span is help only by a dynamically environment. I myself have yet to dedicate my devotion to one church, so to see someone that dedicated is refreshing. Find comfort in the center of God's will. The Lord only asks us to take action, he'll do the rest.

If you are doing something different that causes people to question what they do and “do not do” at the church, then you have impact. Their response isn’t for you to deal with, you can simply just say, “The Lord led me”. How do they argue that? :)

Keep in mind that while I have been a believer for most of my life, I am only now beginning to excavate and discover the many layers of the Bible. If some of my questions or assumptions are off, I do not mind being corrected. I apologize for my random thoughts. Three times I’ve tried to write a response and have had to stop due to other responsibilities. It's a busy life I lead, but I wouldn't change it for anything else in this world.....unless He tells me to.

-Common

Edited by author 01-28-2007 09:20 PM
Marty,

Thanks for the reply. I sort of missed my point of the post. My point was I know what and why she goes to church. In fact I am the one who tells her that and I am also the one who tells her to tell the church what the deal is. She has been part of the leadership of the synod youth program for almost 4 years now. She was the youngest youth to be accepted to the synod level and has been invited to the national level as a youth delegate. But yet when she offers her input, they have no interest in allowing any of the suggestions. Many of the other youth agree, but do not have the drive or parental support to go forward with it. They simply except the condition of the church and simply repeat the traditions that are killing the Lutheran Church. And most of the Mainstream churches of today.

She has and will be going to one of two other churches youth events. One is a Pentecostal church and the other is a very Charismatic no-denomination church. We know the kids that are going there and we feel very comfortable in her decision to explore these options. I told her several weeks ago she needs to work out her own salvation. My main concern now is my wife. She is a cradle Lutheran and would not go anywhere else. But she finds herself torn to totally brake away because she is a teacher at the school. It would be impossible for her to remove herself completely from the church.

About offering something different? ROTFL!!!! Are you kidding? I have already seen people walk out in the middle of a youth lead service because it was; “NOT WHAT WE DO HERE.” How is one to deal with that? I have no interest in asking them to change or even offering something different. I simply bring the Truth to them in study and prayer. I don’t promote the idea that it is Celtic, but any Celt would know where it was coming from.

IHHN,
Scotty

Hey Scotty,

Fear not, my brother! I think we've all had days like that at church. In your post, you asked 'what's the matter with kids today?'. Well, we've been saying that in the classroom as well! What educators have come up with is 'relevance'. You may appreciate the traditional services of your church but that may not be the same values your children have towards it. (especially teenagers) Theirs is a world of instant 'feed back' and gratification. Attention spans have diminished drastically because of it. They're waiting for the next thing to happen and it never comes! What they crave more is something a little more attuned to their ways of seeing God. Tradition is in there already! (prov 22:3)

We were chatting about a week ago and you told me that you daughter didn't like your youth group. I suggested that she try a local Pentecostal church and you said she was already attending their youth group. I'm sure she's made friends there by now. What about letting her attend the Sunday services there? Usually the services last an hour and a half or two hours, you'd have plenty of time to drop her off and still get back in time from your service. This way she gets to explore other venues for God and she's still being fed the word. This way, she's also getting to hang out with her friends! Your alternative is to start splitting the family between two churches!

As for your Lutheran Church, what about encouraging your pastor to take a look at the Stowe Missal? It might be interesting to try! And the traditionalists may not even notice!!!

Well, in any case, I hear you brother! We went through the same with our kids. I'll be praying that the Lord gives you wisdom in whatever He leads you to do...

Slan
Marty

Case in point; this morning was the first time in forever that my daughter went to church. They had a sub for Sunday school and he made a mistake by asking teens why they come to church and what does God word say to you. Well as loving as my daughter is her answer was; because my dad let me drive to church and we have a potluck. I learned a long time ago never ask a teen an open ended question if you don’t want the answer. Teens are beyond the “Sunday School” answer. Mr. Denver was looking for answer to his own son’s problems (who has not been in church in some time). I was not even aware of this exchange and Denver came up to me asking what was wrong with these kids today. I told him that there is so much today’s kids are going to put up with. I have been part of youth ministry and they will tell you what the need and what they want form the church and for their who life they have been told, “Sit down and be quiet. We know what you need and what you want. And all this contemporary stuff is not welcome in our church. So they get to the point of feeling they are not welcome and stop going.

Then my family and I were sitting in the sanctuary waiting for service to start. My son always brings toys and paper to draw with to church. He had his little area set up(which only takes up his own seat) and this lady comes in and literally pushes all his stuff over and rudly says they need room for three! As the fellowship book came by, I realized they were not even members of our church. So with in an hour of church, both my kids felt snipped by the church, which of course resonates to us.

So my question is this; would we have been better off staying home talking with my unsaved neighbor or witnessing here on the net? My Celtic Walk is all that saves my faith. I go to service for one reason. It is my mission field. As a Lutheran Celt, I am called to bring God’s eternal Truth to some of the most hell bent traditionalist in the body of Christ. I love the literary of the liturgical churches and I do not want to see the modern day traditionalist hijack it. They do not realize that the traditions they hold to are their traditions and not necessarily the traditions of the Truth.

So the big question is where do we go from here? My family is connected to the church via my wife teaching at the school and I have been called to begin the men’s ministry. For me, I can only take the missionaries heart. As a dear friend of mine once told me after he came off the mission field; it is not about me or my living conditions. It is about the people God has called us to serve.

Scotty

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Journey and Promise

Book Two
Day One

Our beginnings are in Eden, O God;
our genesis is in you.
Open to us the gateways of your presence in life
and the doors that lead us further into your mystery.
Awaken our memory of the garden of our beginnings
that we may find ourselves again in you.

Hey Scotty,

Home again I see! (hehehe) Obviously... so am I! Thanks for the devotional. There were some good points made there about actual 'fellowship' together. Now, let me get this straight, 'Church' is used only 'in the air'? Hmmm.... We are all connected to each other through our 'ethernet' cards. Ether has often been used as a reference to 'air'. Ethernet = Church in the air!? Cool... I like that!

So... we are a Church then here! WoW! 24-7 if we want! Never thought of going to Church 24-7!

As an alternative to just fellowshipping here though, some churches have several opportunities throughout the week to fellowship there as well. Tonight, I intend going to our Church's prayer service. I much prefer the informal prayer service to the 'high stress' morning services!

Thanks again for the post... something to think about!

Slan
Marty

I just received this in my morning devotional. I think it is very fitting for us here. I know many of us have been so disillusioned by the church, that we simply do not go any longer or not very often. But that leads us to the guilt that has been drilled into us about forsaking the assembly. I think that our activity here every day brings us much more than most churches bring on Sundays. With that being said, we have a potluck today and I need to get ready to go. hehe

Scotty


Assembling Together
January 28, 2007

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25).

This verse is often cited as an incentive to regular church attendance, but it can also relate just as well to any gathering of two or more believers in Christ's name. The Lord Jesus said: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20).

It is fascinating to note that the Greek word translated "assembling together" in this verse is used only one other time in the New Testament, and there it is translated "gathering together." "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him" (II Thessalonians 2:1).

In this verse, Paul was reminding the Thessalonians of his previous letter to them, in which he had written about the return of Christ and the gathering together of all believers to meet Him in the air (I Thessalonians 4:15-17). Perhaps the writer of our text verse, since he was using the same unique terminology, was referring to the same event.

That is, whenever there is an assembling together of believers, it is in a sense a little preview of that great gathering in the skies when Christ returns, as we exhort one another to "look for Him" (Hebrews 9:28), and so much the more, as we see the day approaching.

Since our text verse does not actually mention the church by name, it seems to apply to any assembling of believers. However, there is one very significant use of "church" in Hebrews, and it refers specifically to the coming meeting in the air, where we shall all gather at "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23). HMM

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

And Good Sabbath! May your soul be at rest this day...

Hey Scotty - thanks for the reminder! It is a shame that many have gotten 'lost' even before the journey begins. But then again, perhaps they weren't looking for truth. You've been on the Path longer, you've seen as many 'cross-religious' as I have! It makes me wonder, "What do they think Christian means?" That's why I specified it in the description for those who are searching. We are first of all Christians here! As were our ancestors! The Celtic flavor to their understanding of Christ is a great plus for us but we are still part of the Body of Christ...

Hey Mac - Thanks for participating, its great to have you with us! Perhaps you have figured out the reason we are here instead of on the original site! "There be dragons! on the other site. The shame of that site is that it is still linked to "Stuart's Page on Celtic Christianity" So, anyone looking for CC will be led there for discussion! Now and then, Scotty, Fr Jim and myself go back there to see if there are any real seekers to invite them here. However, D. uses the page as a notepad for his own unique research so expect a tirade if you speak up there!
We left because there was no moderation and the group was being held hostage by a few individuals who had 'axes to grind'. It was a free site so I'm not even sure there is a way to moderate!? So I opted for setting up CCS and pay for the moderation feature as well as a few other 'niceties'. So, we're a little better off here. Intruders can be dealt with graciously. And... we get to upload pictures!!!

Note to Everyone!!! - I was checking the traffic here this morning and found someone had gotten here through a search of certain words. (crawl+Roman+Christian) It turned up in a post!!! Usually, search engines would only search Topics and Headings. It seems the newer search engines are more thorough!! I am not ashamed of anything we have already said here but it would be good to be forewarned for any future postings. As the Scriptures state, "count your words"!

Well, may the Lord of the Sabbath be with us all today and renew our hearts in Him...

Slan
Marty

Edited by author 01-27-2007 09:27 PM
Scotty wrote: That is why it is so vital that we never deviate from the Scriptures. All of our doctrine and theology must first and foremost come from the Scriptures. Then our customs and traditions can be balanced to the Scriptures.


Amen to that, bro!

I am so glad that this list has kept to the life wrapped in scripture. I visited the former list discussion and found it riddled with occult arguments and side path discussions. Shame really.

To all, have a blessed day of worship wherever you are. May His Spirit rest upon all of you!

I just got finished watching a documentary about Jonestown and thought it fitting to add some thoughts here. I think as we all travel on this Path, we always have to be aware of cults and their teachings. I know for me and many of those that are seeking here, we came to the Celtic Way with a guarded heart. For the most part the pagan community has hijacked the title of “Celtic”. But there are many other pitfalls we need to concern ourselves with that can divert our attention away from the Truth. The four main forms of cults we see today are:
1. Pseudo-Christian Cults
2. Oriental Cults
3. New Age Cults
4. Spiritist Cults or the Occult
If we are in the CC community long enough we will see most of these immerge in one form or another. That is why it is so vital that we never deviate from the Scriptures. All of our doctrine and theology must first and foremost come from the Scriptures. Then our customs and traditions can be balanced to the Scriptures.

Blessings from the Holy Three in One
Scotty

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Stories of Creation

Book One
Day Seven

For rest in the night and the day’s busyness,
for the silence of the winter earth
followed by spring’s energy and summer’s fruiting,
thanks be to you, O God.
In the pattern of the seasons,
in the rhythm of our days,
show us the stillness that renews life,
the letting go that deepens our strength of soul.

Greetings Laurence,

WoW! You've got some really deep thoughts here! I'll try my best to give you what I have learned but it sounds to me as though the Lord already has your ear...

"Yet why is it that pleasure often seems somehow sinful?" Well, like it or not, some of the Manichean Gnosticism of Augustine entered into the theology that was accepted into the Roman Church of his time. (and from there, into Western society) It was their belief that only the spirit of man is worthy and the body is totally corrupt! (sound familiar?) Actually, if you follow the writings of St Morgan (Pelagius) you'll understand that one of the things that the Church of Rome was interested in was Unity (uniformity). This would be accomplished by total dependence upon the Church and her sacraments to 'keep us clean' so to speak.

When the Scriptures speak of putting aside the 'worldly pleasures', they are talking to those factions in their own society that focused on all the 'sensational delights' that society had to offer. I've long since forgotten some of the groups' names except for the 'epicureans', but I do know there were others who, like today's culture, just 'wanna have fun!'. It isn't the enjoyment of food and drink that is wrong it is making it the focus of you life (like they did) that was being addressed. The Celts always reveled in their foods and drinks as well. Brigid always worried about the quality of the beer she served. (made it herself, she did!) But while the Celts knew how to have a good time, it was always as an appreciation and thanksgiving for what God had given them. The 'good time' was rejoicing in the bounty God had given them! So, everything was merely an extension of His provision for them.

Simplicity of living is one of the characteristics of CC. That is more a matter of the heart than of the body. While we all enjoy the conveniences that our society has to offer us, we still enjoy the simplicity of 'getting close to nature' as well. After I set my sails and choose my course, the first thing I say is, "Now, the reason I brought out here Lord..." Some prefer the mountains with their scenic views or even a quiet afternoon listening to CC Music! It is more a means of appreciating the finer, simpler things that God has given us.

"So are we walking on a narrow road, trying not to fall off in the ditches on either side?" You are an engineer. You understand 'dynamic tension'! That is the best way I can hope to answer you. The whole Bible is written in dynamic tension. We have the God who gave us the freedom to sin... but we have the grace to choose God's will as well. Paul pointed out a few times that we are free from the law (Judaic) but should do nothing that is not profitable and good for the Body of Christ. I think you get the picture, I won't belabor the point.

"How did the Celts balance these things?" Well, most of them didn't really have the choices that we to today! So, simple living was a matter of existence. Yet there were many times when the Green Martyrs were offered 'kingly favors' but declined or if they accepted, gave them to those who were more in need. As you said, it is a matter of balance. But the fulcrum of the balance was not themselves, it was the Kingdom for which they labored. It was the Light of Christ that drove them so they saw things as He saw them. All things of this earth are a blessings to be used for His purposes! It was much more important to them to be part of the move of Christ in the hearts and minds of others than to satisfy themselves. That is their example... that is also our pledge!

"It seems to me that the monastics were able to develop an attitude of detachment that actually increased their pleasure in the world, so that they were able to enjoy and be thankful for the simplest of things." Does it seem to you to be the answer you sought?

May the Light of Christ continue to illume us all here...

Slan
Marty

To all:

Gina wrote: "Chocolate has been called 'Sinfully rich and creamy' many times! haha, i thank GOD for so many of His delightful creations!"

I have been wondering about this for awhile. I like the Celtic view that the world and the things in it are good. I believe that God created us to enjoy His creation. Yet why is it that pleasure often seems somehow sinful?

We live in a society that could be characterized as addicted to pleasure and comfort. The Celtic Christian world was very different. Whereas my day might include a latte in the morning and wine and dinner out some nights, and maybe a DVD or listening to my favorite music afterwards, the Celt's chief pleasure might have been watching a sunset after a simple meal and prayers.

There a several places in the New Testament where the dangers of pleasure are mentioned. Christ said that the unfruitful ones were choked out by the pleasures of this life. What's more, it seems that the universal testimony of the early Church writers was that pleasure is a danger to the soul. Of course, Paul said that foods were created to be enjoyed.

When I think of what little I know of Celtic Christianity, it seems to me to be favorable toward enjoying this world. But at the same time, many of them lived a monastic life. And some of the desert fathers whom they admired could be called extreme in their ascetism. So are we walking on a narrow road, trying not to fall off in the ditches on either side? How did the Celts balance these things?

It seems to me that the monastics were able to develop an attitude of detachment that actually increased their pleasure in the world, so that they were able to enjoy and be thankful for the simplest of things.

Laurence Schell

Hi Common:

You wrote: "Where does doctrine come from? I understand the need for organization but as Martin just posted and I agree wholeheartedly with "God can never be fully understood" What then are we building and why? If we worship and commune with a God that is much larger than our comprehension what could we possibly create that would encompass who we think God is?"

Doctrine is wholly inadequate to describe the mysteries that God has not revealed. It deals only with what has been revealed. Doctrine arises from our effort to communicate that which we have experienced and understood based on scripture and, in some churches, tradition. By that definition, anytime we counsel someone or share something from personal experience, which we think illustrates a biblical principle, we are expressing doctrine.

In much of modern Christianity it has become fashionable to look at doctrine and theology as somehow missing the boat. And yet, the last time I looked, I found that the ideas expressed by people on such a site as this, for the most part, have doctrinal content. Even your questions above allude to a doctrine, which Marty expressed. All Christians, whether they realize it or not, have doctrinal beliefs. I have always ignored the maxim that you should never discuss religion and politics.

Theology, at its best, should be like a spotlight shining upon a doorway. What's on the other side of that door is the experience of God. The mistake is finding your way to the door and feeling that is enough. We use doctrine to describe things that people do not know or understand. I recognize that not too much weight should be given to the mental approach. One can become top heavy and heart light. But doctrine can be useful to bump people out of the doctrinal ruts they have settled into. When that is done on a grand scale, we call it reformation. It gives me hope to know that there is something I don't already know that points to a deeper experience of God.

One problem with theology is the traditional seminary approach, which is to make it so scholarly and abstract and intellectual that no one who is not a theologian can understand it, and it has no practical application. One of the things I like about the Orthodox theology is that some of their greatest theologians were also some of their greatest saints. I read somewhere that they don't encourage this one-sided intellectual development in their theologians that is so prevalent in the west. They encourage them to go through the door.

I think people tend to react against theology because so often Christians use it to put God in a box. Most people don't realize that it can also be used to destroy the box. This only works for those who avoid holding on too hard to what they think they already know. Then it can be used to teach them something new that doesn't fit with what they've previously learned.

And that something new may lead to greater freedom and undestanding. As I mentioned earlier, some doctrines can be limiting to the people who believe them. Original sin is of that sort. Others can be freeing. I believe the ideas that God created us good and that Christ is in us are of that sort.

Part of the reason I am here on this site is to learn something of what the Celtic Christians taught. It is freeing and enriching to my walk with God. I read about theosis on this site. That has led to other discoveries. It is important to me to understand these things, though I may have a more heady approach than others. I want to learn to live it as well.

Laurence Schell

Halloway,
I too would like to welcome you as a fellow traveler on this Quest the Lord has called us on. My name is Scotty Weeks and I have been on this Quest for about 10 years. Marty and I have been fellow companions ( I would say boarder line Anama Caras) for mmmm, three or four I think. I found him wandering around an old MSN group. Lost like an aging retired old man. ROTFL! No really Marty is great and has been a big part of my life. His wisdom in life and his insight into God’s Word makes him a great spiritual companion.

I noticed we had a huge amount of posting yesterday. I am going to try and catch up, but I might have to just pick up in mid thread. It was great to see the activity come up again. It is always good to have new companions to walk with. I sort of feel like Frodo. <grin>

Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings Halloway,

Ta failte! Be Welcomed! We are all travelers here on the Celtic Way...

I remember seeing that movie you mentioned on the TV, not in the theatres. My first thought is the title "Lawnmower Man" but I don't think that's it! (it was a horror flick) But you made a good analogy with it anyway. Yes, we are all 'characters' in each other's journey here. So, welcome to the path we share! The group here ranges pretty extensively from the 'frozen chosen' to the 'flaming fundies' so I'm sure you'll fit right in!

Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Marty Farrell. I live in New York out on Long Island. I retired from teaching a few years back, about the time that I began The Celtic Way. I moderate this board and its a pretty mellow group of mature Christians, so please feel free in expressing yourself, its safe here. We'd love to learn a little about you. We also love to 'show off' our opinions on things, it all we have! There are a few who participate, several who just watch and listen, and others who just look in occasionally on their Celtic Journey.

Would you mind telling us a little about yourself? It helps us to relate to each other better but if you're still a little shy, we understand. Thanks for speaking up and letting us know you joined us here!

You many have noticed that QT is an HTML site. Most word processing codes for italics, <B>bold</I>, or <U>underline</I> won't be translated very well when displayed. Plain text works best but you can imbed HTML code into your messages for their display here. This is a link that will help you with the code -
http://www.werbach.com/barebones/barebones.html#structure. However, it doesn't work with the emails we receive, on the display on the site.
I've recently installed a chat board as well as an experiment. If you have a Skype subscription (free) then you can log in and contact me or anyone else who's on at any time. Please feel free to give it a try. If it doesn't work... then I'll drop it in a week or so.

Well, thanks again for joining us, we love to meet fellow travelers on the roads the Lord has given us all. May God bless you and send you His Light here...

Slan
Marty

I do not remember the name of the movie, however it was one man's journey travelling across a couple western U.S. states to visit his brother. He made the trip on a riding lawn mower. The story included the role of the many people he met along the way and the part they played in each other's lives.

I am on a journey searching the roots of my celtic spirituality. I am not riding a lawn mower but I am travelling down the road that you are also travelling. I look forward to the company. May it be an inspiration for all.

halloway

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Stories of Creation

Book One
Day Six

Made in your image,
formed in your likeness,
we carry your life within us, O God.
In every person, in every race,
in every nation on earth, O God,
we look for your presence and long for your peace.

Greetings all,

As usual, I'm playing around with the site! I've just added a chat room called Celtic Christianity to the website page. I'm not sure how it will work. It may only be for those who are already on Skype instant messenger. If you have an account there could I ask you to try and contact me through the web page? If not, I'm finding it to be an excellent IM! You might want to check it out!!!

Slan
Marty

HAHA!

Sorry i got chocolate on everyone's minds!!!

what can i say? i used food analogies b/c i love food! (especially treats!)

You wrote: Who's ready for some chocolate?


I say bring it on!

Hey Mac,

We seem to be 'over-working' you today! Great to have you posting again!
"I don't always like the method tradional groups use to 'bring about salvation' in congregations." Agreed! Too often it is more for the 'numbers' than their actual welfare. Churches are expensive! And Trustees worry about finances! Sad to say, some see the move of God as flowing through the 'General Fund'! But as I read Scripture, Salvation is the work of Christ, Repentance is the work of the Spirit! Our task is just to serve...

I like your John quote, he was such a good Celt! Or was it the other way round??? Had I a place to tack this somewhere here, I would! "To connect with God is life and life to it's fullest. To gloss over what He brings to us is to miss that fullness." Thanks brother!


Well, thank you all for your thoughts and feelings. Who's ready for some chocolate?

Slan

Hey Common,

Thanks for coming back! Always good to have others to 'stir the pot'! While I can relate to your message, I need to ask you about this - " what could we possibly create that would encompass who we think God is? " Why do we need to create? If He is already beyond our understanding and beyond the Universe, what do we need to do other than to simply acknowledge it? You may as well ask, 'What can exist without God?'.

I have often heard from non-believers that the only requirement to becoming a Christian is a lobotomy! I think you have seen that to be the 'highest' goal of some Christians, those who relish in being a 'fool for Christ'! It serves no one, however. The 'foolishness' here is the knowledge of the ways of Christ, not the shear stupidity of the individual saying it. Yet, the Light of Christ is just as present with them as with us. To show them His presence is the task of all Christians! (in spite of themselves)

You are right about our desire to explore God's creation! It is the mystery of Who He is that causes us to find Him in so many ways! Yet, we will never have a 'handle' on His presence.. He is beyond! But, my friend... keep searching!

Slan

Hey Laurence,

Good to see you back posting again. I appreciate your 'engineers mind'! As I was reading your post I was thinking to myself, 'is it for the sake of the blueprints that we make doctrines, or is it to build the relationship'? When my children were younger, having a large household of seven kids meant that there had to be the 'rules'. (actually, I had to write them out because I kept forgetting them myself!) Once, they asked, "Why do we have so many rules?". I was surprised at my own answer, "Rules are the guidelines for relationships!". As we grow in any relationship, the rules are replaced with the intimacy of the relationship. The exist only to help us come close at first.

Most of the things the kids were taught had to deal with the '3 R's - Respect, Responsibility, Rightness. I think doctrines are in the same category. They help us define how we are supposed to understand God and relate to Him in a way that is meaningful. Like you, I have seen many who would use the doctrines more as the Pharisees (at least we are not like THEM!) and separate themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ. I have even seen whole Churches who consider themselves 'nearer my God to thee'! This is just WRONG! But as Mac pointed out, our first responsibility is to build our relationship with Christ. From then on... its easier to relate to His created ones!

Here's one of my favorite Celtic doctrines, the Three Harmonies. After we get over this 'sin nature' issue, we need to find Christ within ourselves, Harmony with ourselves. We need to see ourselves as our loving Father sees us. We need to understand the reasons He made us the way He did and... appreciate it! When we can see Him actually within us and we learn of our total dependence upon for our existence then we can move on the second Phase, Harmony with Christ. In coming to see Him and His handiwork within our own lives helps us understand His heart for us and the reason for our lives. It is really empowering to know not only do I exist... but... I exist for His purpose. Now.. what is that purpose? Harmony Three, learning to see Christ in all He brings to our day! In this we learn to be part of the ebb and flow of the rest of creation, both mankind and nature. This is the heart of the Celtic Way! This is our doctrine! It helps us define who we are, who He is and what we are supposed to be doing for Him. That's the relationship.

Doctrine to teach us how to separate ourselves from 'others'! I have no need for it! Guidelines for learning how to be an actual part of the move of God... lead on!!! As for the 'sinners saved by grace' gimmick, see it for what it is. It's just an attempt to appear humble. One of those 'christian cultural' things I mentioned earlier. With Christ's eyes we can still see the heart and know how to minister there! But I understand how annoying 'trite-ness' can really be! It is never any good to anyone to identify yourself by your sin. The Celtic Way is to find Christ within and see yourself as He does...

Thanks again for participating again today. I hope we have been of some help in your journey...

Slan

Hey Gina,

All of God's creation is 'sinfully' rich... its what He refers to as 'abundance'!!! I'm not going down to the ocean in this weather but next Summer... I'll let you know. As for the space - time continuum... the Celts already figured it out. It just IS!

Slan

oh, i dont know.... Chocolate has been called "Sinfully rich and creamy" many times! haha, i thank GOD for so many of His delightful creations!

thanks for the thoughts Marty. sometimes when i get working with my hands (especially mind-numbing work like painting walls and stuff) i just get into very complicated debates within myself! i never know where my mind will roam! for all i know i'll have a new theory on the space-time continueum and why "back the future 2 and 3" wouldnt work! haha. i have always called it my "Gina logic" it's hard to argue with b/c it's so "out there" that it leaves one dumbfounded. HAHA . i have a theory on how standing in the ocean makes you skinny... and no one can argue with it b/c it doesnt make ANY sense!

Greetings Gina,

Your 'musings' make me work hard for answers! Good for you...!

The account of the Fall of Mankind is in Genesis 3. It doesn't actually state the name of the tree! It just says that it is in the middle of the garden but it does refer to its effects. "5...knowing good and evil" Here's a comment from Believer's Study Bible for you "3:7 After the fall of Adam and Eve to the tempter, they did become "like God, knowing good and evil" (v. 5). But Satan's half-truth did not tell them that this knowledge would be experiential for them, unlike God's knowledge of evil in His infinitude and omniscience. They had fallen prey to Satan's temptation to doubt God, perverting a "good" for their own selfish ends." Like Moses' sin... they doubted God! And from the same section of BSB "Temptation is primarily an attempt to get one to act independently of God by implanting a desire for self-assertion or a determination to go one's own way" (Here's an interesting side note - sin in not mentioned in the Bible until Genesis 4:7!)(huh!)(and you'll be glad to know - sin is never mentioned in association with chocolate!)

Therefore, evil was not in the Garden with them. The sin was in choosing to go against God's word. That is always in us still to this day, as are the consequences of their choice, nature that now knows brutality and strife! And yes, I think you are right. Innocence is lost whenever we choose to sin.

As for the shame they felt, it was not their nakedness that shamed them. In the Middle East, nakedness is a lot more demeaning than elsewhere so this was an appropriate expression of the intensity of the guilt they felt. God has no problem with nakedness, He created them that way!

Thanks again for your 'musings'! May the God continue to cause you to muse...

Slan

Common,

Sorry, sometimes you just have chocolate on the brain...... :)

" I don't think it's possible to sin in ingnorance. It's more a willful act of disobedience. "

EXACTLY! i think in my own round about way i was trying to say something like this!

before the "fall" i'm sure adam and eve did many things that would be considered "sinful" today. ie living nude- but it's like a little child running around naked- they didnt know any better and that innocence is what was lost- suddenly they DID know better.

 that free acceptance of GOD word that they had before ( eve never wondered why she couldnt eat from the tree, probably never even wanted to, until Satan started to ask her questions of "why"- but once she started to question, it was bound to end in that way.just like little kids seem to start losing their innocence when they beign to learn the ways of the world)- where they just did as they were told b/c it was what they were told to do, disappeared. and they started to ask GOD "why not?" and pushed the limits until they rolled right over the boundries.

like the story of Pandora's Box, once you break the Law the first time, it's bound to happen again. it's why teenagers who say "i'm only going to try this once (be it sex, drugs, or some other harmful behavior)" are on the road to doom, b/c it only takes once. and then the flood gates are open.

Doctrine is very essential but if you eliminate relational living, it is only half the picture. As I mentioned, it is valid for guarding against heretical teachings that pop up from time to time. Here can be a trouble
spot: one side exclusively leads to legalism and the other to carnality. Laurence, I like your crooked wall analogy.

Marty, I don't always like the method tradional groups use to "bring about salvation" in congregations. God is more than capable to reveal Himself in a variety of ways; to connect in ways apart from methods. I have had to ask myself "Is this part of the revelational process at this moment for some people?" Who am I to limit the Ever-existant God?! : ) I note this to say the following: to limit one's sense of understanding to just hearing is troubling. Hearing the word of God is wonderful, but it must be coupled with seeing and contact with the emotional and physical of the created world. As the John noted: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life..."

To connect with God is life and life to it's fullest. To gloss over what He brings to us is to miss that fullness. With all that we have, we still live in a world of shadows and this includes our total understanding of our God. Let me explain. Our desire is to know Him completely but no matter how we try, we see only in part. What we see in God is the shadow of His greatness and total character. Until we are with Him, we will not know that fullness.

Where does doctrine come from? I understand the need for organization but as Martin just posted and I agree wholeheartedly with "God can never be fully understood" What then are we building and why? If we worship and commune with a God that is much larger than our comprehension what could we possibly create that would encompass who we think God is?

This has been my the topic of my latest wrestling match. Doctrines are too easily "followed" by people and not fully understood, like a rule book. I am beginning to think that they remove "comprehension" from the vocabulary of most believers which might just be a sin in itself :)

Gina, in reference to your example of sinful nature. Besides the fact that I am now craving a nice truffle, I think that as humans we have a built in curiosity to explore God's creation. The disobedience or the act of choosing to go against what God said is where we fail. I don't think it's possible to sin in ingnorance. It's more a willful act of disobedience.

Where God is, Satan is just lurking around the corner.

Hi All:

I am from a non-denominational Charismatic background. What I admire about it is its emphasis on the experience of God and his power in the here and now. What bothers me about my own background is that people have such a mishmash of doctrinal beliefs. It's a smorgasbord of pop theology. Mix and doesn't match. There isn't much cohesiveness. I disagree with a lot of what John Calvin taught. But I admire the fact that he developed an entire cohesive system of doctrine. All the parts make sense with all the other parts.

I agree, Mac, that it's more important to come to know God relationally than to learn doctrine. However, I believe for myself that doctrine is like the blueprints and scaffolding for what we build. Before we build something different from what we have known, something else has to be in place. We would never erect the scaffolding unless we saw that the blueprint requires a 30-foot high wall. The doctrine is not the thing being built. The Christian life and the relationship with God and the Church is. A lot of scaffolding has been built without understanding the blueprint, and the result has been some crooked walls.

It seems to me that, if a person wants to be committed to his denomination's theological tradition on something like original sin, that's fine. At least one can admit that we are "a new creation in Christ. Old things have passed away. Behold, all things are new." Yet what I have heard too often in my circles is: "I'm just a sinner, saved by grace." This is used as an excuse for surrendering to one's old nature, and it amounts to a false identity. If go around confessing I am a sinner instead of a saint, I identify with sin instead of with Christ. I personally don't see how people could possibly grow or overcome with this understanding. I also think it is inconsistent with the CC faith as I am starting to understand it.

Believing that God made me good and has restored me to goodness makes me want to draw near to God and have that relationship.

Laurence Schell

just some musings of the day....

you were all talking about original sin again (weird b/c i was just thinking about it last night as i was painting the crown molding for the new place) and i thought i would throw this out there. keep in mind it isnt anything doctrinal that i found. and that in the mind of this little blonde, things i think up sometimes only make sense to me!

Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve ate the fruits from the tree of KNOWELEGE of good and evil. suddenly their eyes were open and they could see wrong where they could not before (does that mean the evil was always there and they were to innocent to see, or what?_). as Satan said they were "like GOD" in that they could now tell the difference (oh, how easily the Truth is skewd).

we have always been told that they passed on this "Sinful Nature" to all the world. was it maybe just the ability to see sin? to know it? and with that knowelege the temptation to continue to sin arose? i mean if you have never eaten chocolate and no one had ever told you it was yummy, would you even THINK of trying it? of course not. but if someone suddenly said, mmmmm, chocolate, try this! and you did, then suddenly you would forever be tempted to try it again.

i mean animals do not sin. they were never given Laws or moral codes (nor the ability to comprehend them). but they do lots of things that , if it were done by a human, would be wrong. they are innocent tho. i guess what i'm trying to say was maybe what happened in Eden was the basic loss of that innocence- not the addition of sin.

does that make ANY sense to you all?

Greetings Common,

First let me thank you for your post. I know that to some here, lurking is safest! And that's fine, I'm glad to still serve a purpose by just being here. But to post! That gets the real questions answered so much quicker! I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to take that step forward. If you would like to spare yourself the trouble of logging on every time to find out what is going on here, you can hit the blue 'Subscribe' button above and have the posts come to your emailbox. Either way, I'm glad you are here...
So... a fellow Pentecostal! Rare... aren't we?! I need to ask you something though, what did you mean by "Unadulterated immersion into the Bible."? I'm not sure that you are saying it is a good thing or a bad? The Celtic Saints were totally immersed in the Scriptures, so if you wish to follow the Celtic Way, you are on the right path. His word will never return 'void'!

Hmmm... 'the original reason for our creation'? Here's something to think about. Picture God and Adam, walking in the cool of the evening in Eden. Adam talks all the time... telling God the things he found that day! God just smiles and says, "hey, didya notice the way I did that?". He just loves listening to Adam's excitement about life and his appreciation for all that God has done! Now... spoil that image!!! God would do anything to get it back!!! He'd even be willing to teach us how to be like Him...
I think it was in Rick Warren's book but it could have been John O'Donohue's, the purpose of our being here is to learn to be like Him! As the Celts understand it, He created this 'pocket' we call existence within His own being. Life here is linear, it is finite, it is alien to Him! Yet, as one of our prayers state, "We are children of Eternity born in Time"! The Orthodox have a doctrine called 'theosis', Pentecostals know it as 'sanctification', where this is the goal of our existence. We have just these allotted years to learn how to be like Him. As we are now, we cannot fellowship with Him fully... To learn to conform ourselves to His Nature is our purpose.

So, you are 100% correct to state that it is all about 'relationship'! Yet, while He loves us the way we are, He made us for fellowship on a more 'equal footing' with Him. The intimacy of this realization is what sparks our passion for Him! I think, from your statements, you may have caught a glimpse of what I am trying to say. But there is so much more! The Early Christians believed that God could never be fully understood. Sometimes in Pentecost, we think we have a 'handle' on it! In CC, we revel in the awe and wonder of His presence everywhere! So, again.. . you are on the right track!

I see you are correct about the lack of a 'search' feature on QT. I'll mention that to the owner, he is always looking to improve the facilities here. A few weeks ago, Gina posted a file she found on another site that was a compilation of the beliefs of Celtic Christians. A few years back, myself and several others from different Celtic boards on Yahoo! Groups composed it in an attempt to make a uniform 'Statement of Faith'. I had forgotten about it but she found it somewhere in the files section and reposted it here! (funny when your work comes back at you and you don't recognize it!) If you are willing to contact me via email, I'll send you an original copy. (The one here lost some of its formatting and color) You can contact me at mfjfarrell@yahoo.com. Or, if you'd prefer to remain anonymous, I'll repost it here according to the HTML codes we use. Either way is fine with me, just let me know.

Thanks again for your post! You have started out on a sacred and exciting adventure! May the Lord of all Harmony draw you closer to Himself this day...

Slan
Marty

Dia anseo isteach!

Thanks Mac,

In your response to the 'original sin' issue, I couldn't agree with you more! Christ is within us all! Our tasks as Christians then is to lead each other to discover His presence within ourselves and to see Him throughout all Creation. We do this best when we emanate That presence by living as we should (theosis). To be Christ in the world for others sake is what our journey here is all about. Our struggle is with our own 'humanity' (selfishness - if you will) and the last lesson that Christ taught us was His most important one, Death to the self!

My difficulties lie more with the cultural aspects of Evangelicals than with the theology. Like so many denominations and sects within Christianity, there are 'common agreements' that aren't exactly in the pages of the Bible. (women in ministry, pastor's salaries, attire for services, Christian school vs. Public, the nature of man) So many times I have sat through the sermons on 'Sin' being harmetia where we are told plainly that it is simply a matter of 'missing the mark'. That's right! It is!!! It is our humanity to miss the mark and I am so glad to hear it in a congregation that believes that there is no good in them or in anyone around them! But the sermon is followed by an impassioned 'altar call' to put our 'corruption' aside and seek salvation because there is no good in us!!! See my point? What are we teaching and... what do we really believe ourselves?

In CC, I know I still 'miss the mark', I always will! That is my nature until He comes for me! But how can we teach people to see Christ within themselves, how can we believe that of ourselves, if we still believe that 'SIN' rules us constantly? To many in Evangelicalism, we are both 'half good - half bad'. The things they like about themselves are God's giftings to them but the things they hate are the 'work of the devil'! This can't BE! Yet it is the common belief that I had to deal with. To disagree with someone and try to convince them that 'God is within you', is to be held 'suspect' of being 'new-ageish'. So... I find conflicts... even here!
Perhaps it is as you say, Mac, life is a journey. I must have been absent one day and missed the lesson on 'paradox'! I often wonder about the Celtic Church. If it had survived... would it be as perfect (flawless) as I would like to believe? (hehehe) I guess its easier to just to believe that we have all the answers. Thank God for apophatic faith! It will always be a mystery to me!

Thanks for taking time to respond... May God continue to lead you as you lead those He's given you...

Slan
Marty

Hi all,

I'm breaking my silence. I've been a reader on and off for a long time and haven't really had the time or knowledge to post anything of interest. In fact, recent books that I've be ingesting have brought me to the point where I would like to break through and discuss some things that I have been "rediscovering" on my own.

What prompted this post was initially the discussion about YWAM, but now I am turning my attention to the conversation between Martin and Mac. Having come from a Pentecostal background myself, I can understand the do's, don't and unmentionables of that faith. I personally have taken a different route. Unadulterated immersion into the Bible. I am not by any means rejecting everything I've learned through the years. What I am trying to do is return back to the orginial reason for our creation. Relationship. A one-on-one relationship with the the living God who is larger than my comprehension but so loving and intimate that he's created in us the ability to communicate with Him. I need to get past this haze of religion and understand the who, what, when, where why's of my existence.

While I can't honestly say that I fully understand all the CC has to offer (gasp) I can say that from what I've read, my view align with the points that are raised on this board. I didn't see a search function so if someone could post a "beliefs" post, I'd love to read through it.

-Common

If you are referring to the doctrine of Original Sin vs. the Divine within the Creation, I have not found this to be a problem nor do I believe that they are in opposition.

Simply put: God's creation, while not a god(s), has the touch of the Creator within each and every soul. Although the fingerprint of God is there, due to limitedness of our state as the creation, and our tendency to seek our own ways, we have succomb to a lesser standard. That state is inescapeable. Salvation releases us from the just punishment of a just God but does not blot out our desire to move on our own. Many of the past have found this to be too overwhelming so they set themselves apart from society at large focusing only on the Divine. Others have not and have lived as an example within their culture.

I am where I am due to the gentle leading of the Lord. I understand that the relational element is a life long journey. As for those I lead, to help them know the Creator and His uniqueness is one of my joys. To see them come to that deep understanding is awesome. So where does that leave me? It leaves me doing this until the great God of heaven, earth, sea and sky moves me on.

Hey Mac,

Thanks for the clarification! While I completely understand that CC is adaptable to any of the sects and denominations because of its intense focus on a vital relationship with God, I've experienced some people (groups) who feel they are the only correct source of CC. So I was wondering if that was the purpose of your 'divisive statement. As for myself, I accept that it is the earliest and truest form of Christianity.

Now, since you are a Baptist, how do you fit the Celtic theology of the 'goodness' of man into that of your church? Evangelicals (including the Baptists) are right on with the notion of 'personal relationship' being the most important aspect of their theology but there is so much 'leftover theology' from the Roman Church that there are points of conflict. As I've mentioned before, I served for a number of years as an Elder in a local Pentecostal Church. Eventually, as my theology shifted, I realized I could no long serve the congregation believing differently than they did. Do you have any areas of conflict?

Well, it is getting late here in NY... I think I'll turn in for the night. Thanks again for your responses... glad to see we're on the same page!
Slan
Marty

Hey Marty!

To answer your first question, I haven't seen any of the early folks around at all. As for keeping in touch, I'm always around. : ) Not much posting but a lot of reading.

As for the clarification, CC was never a path followed that strived for a label. Therefore, it seeks to know God in His fullest through all with which He has blessed us. Now, are there those in CC that are attached to the variety of denominations out there? Sure, but I would not want to limit to knowledge of God and His Word by locking it down to traditions.

As for me, I am a pastor in the baptistic tradition and have been for 21 years this year. Over the many years of working within the church at large, I have found that prior to knowing doctrine, we must know God and His character. Pls understand me well here, I am not negating doctrine by any means. It is important as to rule out, and protect against, heresy. History has shown this to be vital. After all, we are commanded to study to show ourselves approved.

The CC path for me has deepened my appreciation and love for the amazing creation God has blessed us with but also the fullness of worship, whether the physical practice or the eternal spiritual dance set in our souls. Oh, to know Him in His fullness!

Fear not, I am hanging out and about. ; )

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Stories of Creation

Book One
Day Five

In making the creatures, O God,
you called the senses into being
and named them as good.
In our tasting and touching,
in our smelling, hearing and seeing
may we be alive to the mystery of life
and alert to finding you in all things.

Hey Mac,

Good to see you're still checking us out. Have you heard from any of the others who started with you? I've been wondering what happened to those who went before us.

In your post you mentioned that Celtic Christianity shouldn't be a 'divider' between Orthodox and Protestant sects. It should be a 'relational connection'. Could you explain what you mean by that? I know the CC is about seeing the Light of Christ in all peoples and all faiths but within Christianity it seems we keep getting pitched into one of the Great Three camps (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) when in actuality, we preceded them. So, I'm not sure what you were referring to! Thanks.

Also, if you have the time, would you mind coming back more often? Sometimes I'd like to ask questions from you and anyone else who preceded us. Like, "What have you done with all you have learned so far?", "How can you integrate your CC beliefs within the context of the Churches we all attend?". I'd love to hear what you have to say brother!

Thanks again for stopping in...

Slan
Marty

i totally noticed the lack of real information there. but the concept is great- youth teams learning how to minister!

honestly i dont care whether or not it is CC, the idea of a truely christian organization like that is really great!

like i said before, Celtic Christianity is just the glasses i put on the look at GOD and His works!

Gina,

YWAM stands for Youth With A Mission.

The DTS looks interesting but I wish it would go into more detail. It does look like fun though. CC is not, and shouldn't be, a dividing point for Orthodox vs Mainline vs. Evangelical. It is a relational connection with the Living Word. : )

wow i read it and it's really cool! i kinda wish i had done something like this before i got married when i was in college.... sigh....

oh well, GOD can use me in a different way!

i am my Master's Servant!

?YWAM?

Hey Scotty,

As I started reading it, I thought of Youth With A Mission. Two of my sons did a DTS with them in New Jersey. Lo and Behold! it was YWAM! Too bad it specifies 'youth'!!! It would be interesting to see what this group of Evangelicals considers Celtic! But, who knows, perhaps this is the way to go in the absence of a Celtic Church! Thanks for the link though...
Slan
Marty

WOOOOOW! Check this out!

http://www.celticwaydts.org/

Cindy, Blessings to you too! i'm so happy you are moved in! how exciting! GOD willing the work on my house will be done soon and we'll be doing what you are right now!

I really cant wait to get ahold of your book!

May GOD bless your time at the convention, you'll have to tell us all about it!

Gina

Hey Cindy,

Great to hear from you again! Glad to see everything is going well with the house. I'll be praying for you with the new book too. I'll be by the blogspot tomorrow when I get a chance.

Don't worry about being in touch here. We'll be praying for the convention and the house and the new book. You'll be missed but never absent...
Slan

Thanks Marty and everyone for your prayers. We are all moved in now and just got Internet today. Of course, I have LOTS of stuff to put away still, but everything is here. We are feeling very blessed to be here.

I'm happy to hear you are enjoying Brigid, Marty. Next Tuesday I leave for a booksellers convention and will meet with some editors and get a sense whether or not they are interested in my future work. That's a prayer request, if you didn't guess! My husband would love it if I'd bring in some income!

An interview with me is posted on a blog that I participate in today and tomorrow. I'd love it if some of you would stop by and comment! http://ourpastimes.blogspot.com

I'm happy to be back and connected with you all. I really wish I could keep up with Gina's study of books that didn't make it into the Protesant Bible, but I just can't right now. I hope to jump back in in a couple of weeks.

Blessings!
Cindy

Hey Gina,

Both of those sites you gave us were great! On your first link about the Canonical books, he gave a very good brief summary of several hundreds of years very well. I see that he is approaching it from a Protestant perspective since he disagrees with some of the books now used in Catholic Bibles. But he validates his reasons quite scholarly.

I'm not so sure that any Catholics would be offended by his remarks but I'll wait and see if any here would think so. To me, he was pretty even-handed in his approach.

On the article regarding Josephus, again, it was very well done. Actually, I find Josephus an interesting read sometimes. After he was captured by the Romans and brought back to Rome, to see the city through his eyes of wonder was quite entertaining! He has some very good insights on them! I see the article went beyond my simple explanation of the 'Jesus is Christ' problem and did a nice job of textual comparisons. Didn't know that one myself!
In the book I'm reading on the subject, The Apostolic Fathers and the New Testament, they list the books that 'almost made it' into the New Testament. These are letters sent back and forth within the Early Church and were quoted by some of the bishops and writers. Here's their considerations: Epistle of Barnabas, 1&2 Clement, Diadache, Epistle to Diognetus, Shepherd of Hermas as well as Ignatius', To the Ephesians, To the Magnesians, To the Philadelphians, To Polycarp, To the Romans, To the Smyrneans, To the Trallians, as well as the Martyrdom of Polycarp, Epistle to Polycarp to the Philippians, Fragments of Papias.

These writings were most certainly used for teaching in the Early Church but weren't considered acceptable enough to be included in the canon of the New Testament. I'm still looking for a copy of them all for myself! I'm only familiar with a few of them.

Well, thanks again for your questions, lets see what the others here have to say about those sites!?

Slan

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Stories of Creation

Book One
Day Four

In the rising of the sun and its setting,
in the whiteness of the moon and its seasons,
 in the infinity of space ants shining stars
you are God and we bless you.
May we know the harmony of heaven in the relationships of earth
and may we know the expanse of its mystery within us.

Marty ,

Thanks so much for the input! let me know what you think when you get around to the links!

Gina

Hey Gina,

Nice links for us! You must have been busy! I haven't read them fully but I'll probably get to them after dinner. Regarding Josephus, I'll start with your last question first. Yes, he is totally trust worthy for the history of the Times of Christ up to the destruction of the Temple. The one area where his writings lack credibility is in 'Antiquities of the Jews'. In Chapter III section three he discusses Jesus' trial before Pilate and states "He was [the] Christ...". Scholars today accept this as an insertion from some well-meaning redactor. Josephus remained a Jew and never associated himself with the new arising Christian sect.

He is quite a worthy study in himself with a very fascinating life! But I know your concern right now is to get some background on the Canonical / non-canonical books of the Early Church. Remember, what Protestants call Apocryphal, Catholics call Pseudo-epigrapha. The list supplied are books that are included in Catholic Bibles. (Tobit, et.al.) To add to the mix, there are also other writings of the First Century by church Fathers that were almost included in Scriptures as well. These are worthy of study whereas the Gnostic writings are just fanciful elitism.

Hey Scotty,

I found this book on ChristianBook.com
(http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Boo...duct?item_no=084360) entitled "Irish Biblical Apocrypha"! One left buddy!!!

Slan

ohh, see i just found this

http://www.carm.org/evidence/Josephus_Jesus.htm

that helps- so is Josephus a reliable source?

 he speaks alot about a scholar named Josephus. i have heard of this person before, but had heard that historians had long since proved that this person was the invention of the roman-catholic church.

found this, since we have talked lately about apocryphal books and all-
keep in mind that the author of this seems to have a slightly anti-roman catholic attitude. (we're not exactly roman either, but this guy is obviously VERY Protestant [in the way that the Baptists at my mother's church were])

http://www.new-life.net/faq000.htm


there is a whole list of questions that he answers - and i havent been through them yet. so i just thought i would share this with you all and we could talk about the different topics he covers and maybe go over his opinions and what is agreeable and not.

Dia anseo isteach!

Hey Scotty,

Thanks for the link! I went to save it to my 'Favorites' in IE and it turns out I already had it! An oldie but a goodie! I'm going to go back a bit later to search it our further. Thanks again...

Slan
Marty

WHile digging around, I found this site that I had found several years ago. It is a pretty good source to understanding Celtic Monasticism.

http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~dvess/ids/.../celtic.shtml#index

Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!</I.

Hey Scotty,

The book I am presently using is J.Philip Newell's <I>Celtic Treasure. It is a hard cover edition. I like it hard covered, I intend using it for years to come! Copyrighted 2005. I'm only using a small portion of the 'Daily Prayer' sections just as a teaser so that everyone will want to get the full version themselves. I believe he has (once again) captured the heart of Celtic theology and expression in this book. I'm glad you're enjoying it...

Slan
Marty

MArty, I am really enjoying the posts. The book you have, is it hardcovered or softcovered? The one I found was hardcovered and am thinking that is the one I want to get.

Scotty

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Stories of Creation

Book One
Day Three

The earth is full of your goodness, O God.
It sprouts green and grows into the roundness of fruit.
Its touch and its taste enliven our souls.
Les us know the seeds of life’s goodness within us and between us.
And let us handle its gifts with wonder.

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Stories of Creation

Book One
Day Two

O God of life,
who chooses creation over chaos
and new beginnings over emptiness,
we bring to you the disorder of our nations
and world and the emptiness of our lives and relationships.
Bless us and the nations with the grace of creativity.
Bless us and all people with the hope of new beginnings.

Hey Scotty,

Nice link! I see it is an Anglican / Episcopal Church but its good to see some of the High Churches offering a Celtic Liturgy! Maybe others will follow suit as time goes on...

Hey Cindy,

I forgot to mention, I started your book Brigid of Ireland. I'm really enjoying it! I know all the stories associated with her life but I never pictured her as a teenager. Good approach!

Slan
Marty

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Cindy,

Glad to see you stop by! We've been praying for you and 'the big move'! It seems that God has already begun His blessings for you there. Thankfully, the posts have not been too bulky for you. Winter doldrums, I guess!
Well, feel free to stir the pot any time and we'll keep praying until you let us know you're finally in.

May the Lord who shelters us in storms keep you close to His heart...
Slan
Marty

Hi everyone!
I'm back at the old house for a little while today where we still have Internet, and I looked over your last posts briefly.

Just wanted to say hi, and the move went fine. We are all pretty tired though. We are loving the new place. The day after we moved most everything, we had our first snow storm of the season. Yesterday we had to go out when the roads were bad and finish up. But God was good to us (and to the rest of the people in the area. Heard there were no serious accidents!) The dog was a little upset by the whole thing, but today he chased some squirrels and seemed to remember where his food dish is, so he's adapting!! I have to say, the snow made the place very beautiful!

I was very interested in what Marty had to say about Celtic monks. I'm not sure I followed the whole thread, but what he said is very much in line with what I have been studying. I'll have to go back over that part of the discussion later.

And Scotty said something about genealogy and passing on lessons learned for future generations. This is my passion! I thought I'd mention my genealogy site in case he or anyone else is interested: http://cjt9.tripod.com/

I'll be back in touch later! Thanks for your prayers for the move.
Blessings!
Cindy
http://www.brigidofireland.com

Marty,

Wow Can I relate to your last post. He was by far the only thing that did not waiver in my life the past year and a half.

Scotty
p.s. that book will be on order very soon.

Found a new site I have not seen before.
http://www.allsaintsbrookline.org/celtic.html

I like how they discrib the CC Way

Scotty

Prayer from Celtic Treasure by J. Philip Newell
Stories of Creation

Book One
Day One

O God of light,
from whom all life flows,
may we glimpse the shinings of your presence in all things.
In the darknesses of our world,
in the places of fear and terrible wrong,
and in the darknesses of our own lives,
in times of confusion and doubt,
may we glimpse the shinings of your life-giving presence.

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

I have been taking a good look at 'Celtic Treasure' by J. Philip Newell and I'm still very impressed with it. I know I have been uploading some 'Complines' (bed time prayers) from the Northumbria Community but I find their approach a bit too stilted for my tastes. I have them all written out for the week, so if you'd like a copy of them please let me know and I'll email them to you personally. Also, they have a website with a book store so you can purchase their CD's
(http://www.northumbriacommunity.org/Cloisters/index.htm) I love their music and they have their communal prayers on a CD as well!

Anyway... tonight I am going to switch over to uploading the 'Prayer' section from 'Celtic Treasure' instead. I much prefer the theology and expression which Newell uses. If there are any other Celtic devotionals that you'd like to use, please share them with us as well. We all prosper when we share from our own experiences!

I'm working on another project which I'd like to offer you as well. As you may know, moderation at this site is done by IP address rather than email addresses. Every time you send in an email or post from the site, the IP address of your location is recorded and displayed along with the date and time. These are only visible to me, not for the general public! I have been trying to place where everyone is around the country (and the world). Perhaps sometime in the future we may be able to gather at some common location for a prayer service and some real fellowship. Who knows? After I finish with all the IP locations (not hometowns - IP addresses are the origin of your ISP, not where you live) I will make a map of it for distribution to anyone interested in viewing. If you wish NOT to be included, please let me know through my Yahoo! address
(mfjfarrell@yahoo.com) . I never wish to invade privacy and will not use any information I have without your permission. I am just discovering how 'spread out' we are! And its just nice to know where all of you are coming from... Also, the map I am making will NOT displayed on this site! I will send you a copy personally ONLY!!!

Also, I see that the 'Celtic Web Ring', to which I have linked this site, has undergone some changes and has a nice representation of several other Celtic Christian sites. You may wish to check them out some day when you haven't anything better to do here! Thank you all for your participation, it is much appreciated!

May the Omniscient One guide us this day in our ministry to each other...
Slan
Marty

Saturday – the Patrick Compline

Patrick (389-461) was a Briton and former slave in Ireland. He became the ‘Apostle to Ireland’, traveling widely, evangelizing tirelessly and organizing churches and monasteries. He established his Episcopal seat in Armagh, which became the center of Christianity for the whole of Ireland.
Patrick was fearless in pursuit of his aim: to destroy paganism and to exalt the name of the Triune God.

Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Saturday – the Patrick Compline

+ (silently)

In the name of the King of life;
in the name of the Christ of love;
in the name of the Holy Spirit;
the Triune of my strength.

I love you, O Lord my strength.
The Lord is my rock,
my fortress and my deliverer.
My God is my rock
in whom I take refuge.

I will praise the Lord who counsels me;
even at night my heart instructs me.

I have set the Lord always before me.
Because He is at my right hand,
I shall not be shaken.

=====================================
I am placing my soul and my body
under Thy guarding this night, O Christ.
May Thy cross this night be shielding me.
=====================================

Into Your hands I commit my spirit;
redeem me, O Lord, the god of Truth.

The God of life with guarding hold you;
the loving Christ with guarding fold you;
the Holy Spirit, guarding, mould you;
each night of life to aid, enfold you;
each day and night of life uphold you.

May God shield me;
may God fill me;
may God keep me;
may God watch me;
may God bring me this night
to the nearness of His love.

The peace of the Father of joy,
the peace of the Christ of hope,
the peace of the Spirit of grace,

the peace of all peace
be mine this night
+ in the Name of the Father,
and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.

Laurence,

I honor God in all He has done in my life. Lord knows I would not have chosen this path if you asked me 20 years ago. I was on a path of drinking and chasing the ladies. When I joined the Marines, I became government certified. He has grabbed me in pretty dramatic ways that is obvious to me when He is trying to get my attention. I have realized that when I feel the most pain (emotionally and physically) He is trying to say something for me .I was talking with my wife the other day and I told her that I wanted to write down my testimony for future generations. I am big on genealogy and God’s call made such a change in my life, I want to be sure that God’s work is remembered for generations to come. Not may people in my family go to church which makes God’s call even more powerful in my life.

To God be the Glory,
Scotty

Hey Laurence,

I just finished reading that page on the Orthodox view of Celtic Christianity. It was pretty good... but nothing new. His premise was to point out the various similarities between the two forms of Christianity. He did a good job of it be left some areas a bit nebulous. In the past I have seen many Orthodox sites plainly state that they are responsible for Celtic Monasticism and that the theology of the Celts came from their own. On this site that is only implied, not stated. One difference I noted was in his discussion of monasticism. He failed to mention the structural difference of Irish monasticism from all other forms of monasticism in the Early Church. Rather than forming it more like the Desert Fathers they followed the format they knew, the 'tuatha' or clan dwelling place. Leadership as the Abbot was hereditary and obviously, celibacy was not in vogue. The Irish monastic centers also became the centers of a lucrative trade system due to their popularity and need for supplies. The 'warrior monks' actually went on raids to neighboring monasteries when they infringed on the pilgrimage traffic!

Everything else dealing with the theology and perspective of Orthodoxy would be in line with the beliefs of the Early Celtic Saints. You may have noticed his use of Latin rather than Greek. Greek in theology, Roman in practice!

Okay, that's my two pence! Have a great weekend all...

Slan
Marty

Hey Laurence,

Thanks for the new link... it worked! Actually, it looks like a good find. When I have a little more time today I intend to go back and read it thoroughly. From what I skimmed on the page, it appears to be something that I could agree with on the whole. I'll get back to you after I check it out better.

Often on the net, you'll find that the Orthodox sometimes feel that Celtic Christianity is still 'theirs'. There are many similarities between the theology of the Celts and the Orthodox of today because Celtic Christianity was part formed during the same period in Church History, the Early Church. However, its practices were entirely in harmony with the Church centered in Rome. While they were under the authority of Rome, however, they still disagreed with them on many points in theology and practice. The council in Whitby in 664 tried to bring them back into complete harmony but only caused the Celts to 'go underground' (remain in the countryside).

As I mentioned before, Orthodox Theology as well as the history of the Early Church and its writings should be part of any Celtic Christian's reading list. You can understand the people better when you know what was happening in their lives, what they were thinking and feeling, and what persecutions they endured. Good luck in your studies! Please feel free to ask anything that may come up in the future. I have a wealth of books on most of what you need to know as well, so don't hesitate to ask.

Here's something I learned from Anam Cara. The Saints who have gone before us are presently with the Lord. They have entered Eternity. We exist in 'time', something He created for our benefit. Eternity is within Christ, it is His natural state. Christ is within us! Eternity, Christ, the Saints are all within the trinity of our own existence! Just something to think about...

If you find a good monastery for a retreat... let us know! We just may join you there! Thanks again for participating here.

Slan
Marty

Scotty:

I really enjoyed reading your testimony about the
tornado. I believe Goid often speaks to us with such
immediate desires in the heart. What amazes me is how
quickly you obeyed. I often don't act on those
promptings and then miss out on the blessings. I am
more reflective in my approach than most people rather
than being a man of action.

Laurence


  
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Hi Marty:

Somehow an "a" got onto the end of that link. It is supposed to be:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/celtic.aspx

I do not think I would be interested in becoming an Orthodox, but I would like to be more orhodox in my beliefs. I think I might like to do a retreat at a monastery where I could ask questions and learn, if it was near me in Washington. I find Orthodox theology fascinating and helpful in my own journey.

A few years back, I felt the Lord was telling me that I was going to need the teachings He gave other Christians and movements in history. That partly explains my interest in CC and the Orthodox. I see us as being dynamically connected with all the saints who have gone before. It seems good not to have to reinvent the wheel.

Laurence Schell

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

I came across this site yesterday from another board and I found it interesting. Its very Evangelical in its approach and very little information dealing with CC but it may be of use to some of you. If you have nothing better to read this weekend, it may be worth your perusal! http://www.Christian-thinktank.com/ If you find anything of interest there, please feel free to bring it up for discussion!

May the Creator of all grant us rest from our labors this weekend and may we discover His peace and presence within...

Slan
Marty

Friday – the Boisil Compline

Boisil, Prior of Melrose Abbey, died in 661. Bede described him as ‘a priest of great virtue and prophetic spirit’. Boisil, on his first meeting with Cuthbert, who was his pupil, exclaimed, ‘Behold, the servant of the Lord!’ – recognizing the call of God on the young man’s life.

Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Friday – the Boisil Compline

+ (silently)

O Lord, You will keep us safe
and protect us forever.

I am placing my soul and my body
in Thy safe keeping this night, O God,
in Thy safe keeping, O Jesus Christ,
in Thy safe keeping, O Spirit of perfect truth.
The Three who would defend my cause
be keeping me this night from harm.

I call on You, O God,
for You will answer me;
five ear to mea and hear my prayer.

Show the wonder of Your great love,
you who save by Your right hand
those who take refuge in You from their foes.

Keep me as the apple of Your eye;
hide me in the shadow of Your wings.

==========================
Lighten my darkness, Lord.
Let the light of Your presence
dispel the shadows of night.
==========================
Christ with me sleeping,
Christ with me waking,
Christ with me watching,
each day and each night.

Save us, Lord, while we are awake,
guard us while we are asleep;
that, awake, we may watch with Christ,
and, asleep, may rest in His peace.

the peace of all peace
be mine this night
+ in the name of the Father,
and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.

Hey Laurence,

Nice to see you posting again! I hope you're feeling 'at home' here. Could I ask you to resend the link again? When I clicked on it, I got an Error page! I went to the site it was associated with and came upon and Orthodox website but couldn't find any reference to Celtic Christianity on it.
Are you interested in joining Orthodoxy? If not, well it makes for good studying as well. I spent about a year and a half studying as much as I could from the outside and then attended a few services. Its a lovely way to worship but it wasn't for me! I do very much appreciate the Theology of it though. I'll leave that up to your own discovery - I won't spoil it for you!

A few years ago, Scotty and I set up a site in Yahoo! Groups called 'Celtic Church'. It wasn't originally for discussion, we had too many of those already, but more for research. We just deposited all the links that we could find on Celtic Christianity (including Orthodox CC). Here's the link for you, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Celtic_Church/. Check out the 'Links' section for online sites and the 'Files' section for text you can browse also.

Okay, hope it helps!

Slan
Marty

Hi all:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/celtic.aspxa

I have had this on-line article on the relationship
between the desert fathers and CC for awhile. I wonder
if it has already been posted here. I find the stuff
on the transfiguration of the Celtic saints by the
uncreated light fascinating.

Does anyone know any more about such occurences? Also,
do you have other on-line addresses for articles on
CC?

Laurence Schell


  
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i started a post a minute ago, and then the internet kicked me off!!!!
i'll write some more on this later, i really have some thoughts on why it's so important for women (especially women my age) to get together and have time with one another. but for now, i got to get some work done here at the office!

later!

Gina,

Some of the best fruit that the Lord has harvested out of my life were from dreams that I did not have time to think about. Case in point is our current Men’s group. The Lord put it in my heart and I just did it. Everyone said it would not work. “We have done that before and it never took off.” In fact I didn’t even ask Pastor, I told him. Since The ministry was not asking for money, I didn’t need his permission. And now we don’t even meet at church. But they did buy us books and a leader’s guide that we will be suing soon.

I can recall another time several years ago. We were living in TN and tornado went though our neighborhood. It missed our house by about 100 yards. It hit around 5:30 in the evening. I was sleeping in the house alone ( my wife and daughter went to a friends house since we had no power) and at 4:30am, I was awoken from a dead sleep. “Prayer Vigil.” If ever I heard God’s auditable voice, this was it. I got dressed and made flyers, went to church and ran off copies. This was even before the sun was up. I spent the next day standing at the entrance of our Subdivision handing out flyers. It was Superbowl night and everyone said, they would be watching the game. I didn’t care if I was the only one out there. I gathered wood and waited. Sure enough we had about 12 people show up and it began God’s work in the recovery.

My neighbor and I talked about doing something more. With in tow days I had a National Guard Army tent sitting in my front yard filled with supplies brought to us by the Salvation Army. We kept that up for 4 weeks. This gave the people a place to eat and rest and get out of the cold (Jan in TN). Had it not been for God’s previsions, these people would have had to drive 15 minutes into town to even go to the rest room.

Even though they did an article on us, I never felt as if I did anything ( and still don’t) I simply said… “Here I am Lord… It is I Lord…” I simply listened to God’s call at the time. After 4 weeks, it was time to shut it down. No one ever complained and the recovery went pretty well. This and Katrina was by far the highest points in my Walk with God. I guess that is one reason why I am so committed to the Celtic Way. God has gotten my attention more in his creation than in anything I have ever heard at church. So sister, I say seek God’s Will and not ask questions. They only slow up His work.

Scotty

Hey Gina,

Last things first! "just some dreams......" - does not the Lord speak to us in our dreams?! If the seed is planted within you, will he not nurture it until it is full grown? And when it is grown, will He not provide a place?

About the book, yes, I think it could lend itself very well to a 'women's group'! My wife has years of experience leading them at church as part of a Beth Moore study group. From what she has told me... it is more about 'sharing' than 'study'! Perhaps that would be a better way to invite the women at church. A women's 'caring - sharing' group attacks more than 'study' groups and it less intimidating. Once you have developed a 'core group' who want further study, then you can move into that.

I think Celtic Treasure will enable many to join in and feel part of a 'ritual' (something lacking in Evangelical churches) which engenders 'belonging'. Within the structure of the prayers though, there is a place for the typical 'conversational prayer' as part of the devotional. That allows everyone to join in and share their personal concerns. Just some thoughts.

Having raised four daughters as well as my three sons I well understand the 'attack' that young people have today. Actually, it was rather interesting for me to see a 'woman's world' from the inside as they 'educated' me! I'm proud of my girls... they made many mistakes but the Lord was with them and they serve Him still to this day. To see my grand daughters standing firmly in the face of the same onslaughts gives me a great deal of pride. As a teacher, year after year I was astounded to see talented, beautiful young women sell themselves for popularity! They were just so much better than what they were settling for! A young woman's group is always needed in many ways! Without strong Christian women, men have it too easy and tend to become weak. Sad...

Well, look at it carefully, it may suit your needs. At least it would be a good way to introduce them to your beliefs in the Celtic Way.

Slan
Marty

Marty,

This book sounds very exciting! i hope to start a women's devotionals group once we get moved into our house (obviously to be held in our home) where we would get together and pray, study scripture and do a weekly overview of our daily devotionals. maybe i could use it as mine (everyone could use their own devotional book and at the weekly pick their favorite from the week before to share)

i hope it's not too ambitious, i know one girl for sure who would join me, but i'm still so new at the church that i hesitate to hop in there and say - "come to my house to study!" it may be something i bring up a couple months down the road. goin to the church is wonderful _it's a very informal atmosphere- but there is something infinitely more personal about meeting in a home- after all that IS where the early church met-- in homes and hideouts. maybe during the summer when it's nice out we could do it in the back yard!

This is something i wanted to start years ago when i was still at my mom's church but there just wasnt any interest there- they had a women study group at the church on wednesday nights, but they were all much older women, nothing for girls my age. i really wouldnt mind older members at all, but i want to gear it toward my age group b/c we are very much under attack _ "your generation should have out-grown these fairy tales" & "you cant REALLY believe that GOD created the earth, didnt you go to college?" plus there is so much pressure on women my age (and teens) to conform to the world of fashion and Hollywood worship. but mom's church gets weird when you start talking about having meetings outside of the church walls- like "are you trying to start a new church and steal our members?" or since it's teens they worry that they couldnt see what was going on there and control it. *sigh* there was a great youth group for ONE year at my mother's friend's house- but the church asked her not to have it anymore, b/c they wanted to keep the kids (9th-12th grade) inside the church building.

i'm hoping that since this isnt the same type of enviroment at all, that a home study group would be more welcome.

just some dreams......

Gina

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

Recently I received another book of Celtic prayers. Its J.Philip Newell's new Celtic Treasure. Today, I got a chance to sit down and take a good look at it!

Several times people have asked, 'How to we live as Celtic Christians?'. I think this book would be a help in answering that question. It incorporates much of what CC is about. Allow me to quote from the Preface:

"... This is the aim of Celtic Treasure, as it was for my previous publications, Celtic Benediction and Sounds of the Eternal. The difference with Celtic Treasure is that, as well as being a prayer book, it is a scripture book. There has always been a great love of scripture in the Celtic tradition. There is a delight in the Bible's central themes of creation and justice, wisdom and hope, vision and love. Seven of these themes give shape to the passages of scripture that I have rewritten for Celtic Treasure. Book One focuses on the theme of creation as an expression of the mystery of God. Book Two explores the theme of journey and promise in our lives. Book Three considers the tension between power and justice in the world. Book Four listens for the wisdom that God has placed deep within us. Book Five expresses the songs of joy and sadness that issue from the heart. Book Six looks at Christ as the face of God and the true face of the human soul. And Book Seven celebrates love as the greatest expression of our depths...."

He goes on to explain that this book can be used as a family devotional, either before or after dinner. It works well as a personal devotional but can include small groups as well. I think it would be a good way to bring the family (spouses, children / grandchildren) to an understanding of what it is we believe here. So, I hope you'll take a look at it for yourself and perhaps include it in your life.

May the Lord or all Mystery, deep within us all, reveal His plan for our lives this day...

Slan
Marty

Thursday – the Ebba Compline

Ebba died in 683, she was the sister of Oswald and Oswy, who were both kings of Northumbria. She founded and ruled the double monastery at Coldingham, situated on St Abb’s Head, which was subsequently named after her.
Ebba was consecrated a nun by Aidan. Bede described her as ‘a pious woman and a handmaid of Christ’.

Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Thursday – the Ebba Compline

+ (silently)

Find rest, O my soul, in God alone:
my hope comes from Him.

Come I this night to the Father,
come I this night to the Son,
come I to the Holy Spirit powerful:
come I this night to God.
Come I this night with Christ,
come I with the Spirit of kindness.
Come I to Thee, Jesus.
Jesus, shelter me.

I will lie down and sleep.
I wake again,
because the Lord sustains me.

By day the Lord directs His love;
at night His song is with me –
a prayer to the God of my life.

Be strong and take heart,
all you who hope in the Lord.

This dwelling, O God, by Thee be blest;
and each one who here this night does rest.

May God be in my sleep;
may Christ be in my dreams.
May the Spirit be in my repose,
in my thoughts, in my heart.
In my soul always
may the sacred Three dwell.

========================
May the Father of heaven
have care of my soul,
His loving arm about my body,
Through each slumber
And sleep of my life.
========================

The Son of God be shielding me from harm,
the Son of God be shielding me from ill,
the Son of God be shielding me with power.
The Son of God be shielding me this night.

Sleep, O sleep in the calm of each calm.
Sleep, O sleep in the guidance of all guidance.
Sleep, O sleep in the love of all loves.
Sleep, O beloved, in the Lord of life.
Sleep, O beloved, in the God of life.

The peace of all peace
be mine this night
+ in the name of the Father,
and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.

The ProBoards site is active again. I added a few topics to get us going.

Scotty

_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Dia anseo isteach!
(traditional Irish blessing upon entering a home)
God to all here!

Greetings all,

I know I have been uploading the Finan Readings from the Northumbria book of Celtic Daily Prayer, but I'm finding them a bit dull! (and I doubt anyone is reading them!)(hehehe) So I'm switching over to their daily evening Complines instead. They are prayers for before going to bed each night. I hope it may be of more use to you all.

May God with us all here... and use us for His own purposes...

Slan
Marty

Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Finan Readings: January 17
Psalm 51:6 Jeremiah 31:33 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

Be Thou my breastplate,
my sword for the fight…

The fight in which we find ourselves is the fight against the powers in the heavenlies. The tools for the fight are the ones provided for us by God, our job being to use them. We need to know our weapons. We also have a fight in our own lives in the realm of our thoughts and our willfulness. The revelation of God must be drawn from its scabbard at our side and its point directed even at our own breast, keenly cutting even between soul and spirit, between our own thoughts and the quiet wisdom of God.

Be Thou my sword for the fight!

Wouldn’t ya know it, I am locked out of my own site. I changed my e-mail on ProBoards and they have not sent me my activation key yet. Grrrrrrrr! As soon as they do, I will begin the thread concerning The Book of Enoch.

Scotty

it's amazing, b/c after i posted i thought the same thing. perhaps the better analogy would have been to say the other site is more like a book, and this site is like the critique on the book. it could be and overview, or a place to give praise over what was learned and a place to share it, but we actually can see what's inside (read the book) over there. both are great, b/c one is the learning and the other is letting others know what you have learned in a nutshell!

better? :)

Greetings Gina,

I'm sorry if I somehow came across differently than I intended. I have no problems with Scotty's Celtic Church. If I recall, I help moderate there too.(if only I can remember the password!) What I was hoping to explain to Melina was some of the reasons why we've been here in the first place and some of the history to CCS. I have no feelings of being 'abandoned' here! But thank you for your concern.

While I understand you analogy of 'street ministry' versus 'Church ministry', in the Celtic tradition, they were the same. God is everywhere and we are to treat all His children with the same love and consideration. In Evangelical thought, there is the Church (Kingdom) and the World (corruption in need of redemption). Church is seen as a place of withdrawal, retreat and refreshing. In Celtic thought, there are no delineations like that. There is no 'dualism' like the Romans were so fond of, that separates us from those we serve. Ministry is teaching and learning from all whom God sends your way, whether they understand it or not. Seeing the 'Light of Christ' in everyone is what CC is about.
However, not everyone here thinks like a Celt! And that's fine... I sometimes have to stop 'differentiating' like a Roman myself! Old ways are hard to give up. I will look in on you all as well over there and even perhaps add a note or two. What we have built here will travel with us where ever we go! I have no problem with the comings and goings of the people brings into my day. Its all His design! The Body of Christ here is His where every we are! So... I look to hold onto nothing!

May the Light of the Christ guide us this day along His plan...

Slan
Marty

marty, i have no plans to leave qt- for me it's been great here, but i think i understand what scotty is saying, where as this makes a great open invite for people to browse and learn and join in, once they really become interested or want to join multiple CC studies at once, they could come here for the missions side, and come to the other site for the "church" side.

like you can go out and minister to people on the streets (qt) and then go to church and learn more about the faith and grow (a site like scotty has)- they work so well together and really they need each other. b/c we need church to fellowship and learn, but the purpose of learning all that is to spread it in missions, and you have to have a place to learn in order to be an effective missionary.

perhaps you could post your daily devotionals on there as well! it's just a thought!

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings Melina,

Good to see you posting again. How did you do with all that snow out West? I have a daughter in Colorado and a friend in Canada who have been buried with it!

As for the format of Quick Topic, that's nothing I can control. Its the owner's design, I just lease the site from him yearly. I realize that what you say about losing topics is true enough, but if you are on the 'Subscribe' list you can keep up pretty well. This is a single display board but at any time anyone can start another thread. On the site you will see the option to start a 'New Topic' on the menu above. It allows for branching but so far no one has seem fit to do so! So we do have the capability to develop multi-topic discussions as well! But I do understand what you are saying about having them easily displayed for you.

Just to give you a history of this group, a few years ago there were several other Celtic Christians who began a discussion on QT entitled Celtic Christianity. It ran well for several years until the manager lost interest and semi-abandoned it. Some of us here now were part of that board. About a year and a half ago we started having some troubles there with people who just wanted to engage in arguments without any real purpose. There was no one to moderate that site. So I began CCS so we could have some freedom of discussion without all the hassles of an unmoderated group! Its sort of a family tradition to be here now!

Scotty and I have been friends for several years now and have moderated many different boards on Yahoo! and MSN. I bear no one any resentments for moving else where. I will remain here though to minister to those who need. I have linked this site to Celtic Web Ring so I need to be here! I hope you all find God's path for you where ever you see His Light!
Slan
Marty

Good idea Gina. I will put it up this afternoon. Maybe we can use this site as the mission field and the other site as a study cell. Our little cyber monastery if you will. <grin>

scotty, i think that site would be a good domain for our upcoming Book of Enoch discussion. then there could be a specific thread just for the Bible study and Book study. what do you think?
-Gina

Melina,
Thanks, that was the goal I was looking for. I have been a member of MSN groups, Yahoo groups, and here at QT and as you stated they can be hard to follow and they don’t always allow the members to go back and study a topic, so we find ourselves repeating many of the same points. That is not always bad, since the Lord is always working in our lives and we may see something in a different light later on depending where we are in our personal lives. I hope God will allow me the time and energy to serve His Will on the site. Looking forward to our ministry there.

Scotty

Scotty, I visited the site you mentioned and liked the format very much. It's most like the myriad of sites I visit on a regular basis and much easier to keep up with a variety of subjects. This one seems to turn over and lose subjects quickly if we are active and chatty. Sorry if that sounds too petty and critical, I'm not at all a technical type and have no understanding of how easy or difficult these sites are to set up.

Edited by author 01-16-2007 07:57 PM
Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Finan Readings: January 16
Psalm 119:11 1 Samuel 17:38-39 Ephesians 6:14, 17

Be Thou my breastplate
my sword for the night…

The breastplate protects the heart; all the ways to the heart are covered; righteousness is the breastplate. This is being right, or made right, able to stand in confidence. Unlike David, we will find that the armour our King provides fits us perfectly.

Great God,
be Thou my breastplate.

I almost forgot this group. Back before the Katrina, I started a new site. I had lost it until Marty reminded me today. If anyone is interested, the site is:

http://celticquest.proboards51.com/index.cgi

I hope you will join us in this mission field God has put before us.

IHHN,
Scotty

Thanks! i'll check it out soon ( i currently have some books on the way from amazon, then i also have to be careful how many books i check out of the library at once.- i'm a total book nerd!_)--- On Tue 01/16, QT - Martin Farrell < qtopic+31-ACD32UG6jYw@quicktopic.com > wrote:
_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

I'm back from the foothills of WV. My 15th grandchild is doing well there and mother and father wish you all well.

Gina - while in Martinsburg, I was in a Christian Book store and came across a book I thought Steve might like. It's entitled The Apostolic Fathers by Clayton N. Jefford. Its a commentary on the writings we were discussing a few weeks ago. I think he'd like it.

Cindy - finally got my copy of Bridgid of Ireland today... I'll let you know what I think when I'm done, (slow reader though)

Well, its good to be back but I was glad to see the kids and their new additions...

Slan
Marty

Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Finan Readings: January 15
Psalm 24:8 Jeremiah 38:1-6 1 Corinthian 13:12

We become drowned in the detail of our despair; and it is precisely then that we must turn our focus away to the larger picture, which is hidden from us. We trust, and we believe now that we will see then. We believe now that God is still working, and that we will understand one day.

Be Thou my breastplate,
my sword for the fight;
be Thou my armour,
and be Thou my might,
Thou my soul’s shelter,
and Thou my high tower;
raise Thou me heavenwards,
O power of my power.

Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Finan Readings: January 14

Psalm 4:4 Isaiah 32:17 Galatians 2:20

Thou with me dwelling,
and I with Thee one.

Stillness is not simply silence, but an attitude of listening to God and of openness towards Him.
From the Philokalia

Thou in me dwelling,
and I with Thee one.

Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Finan Readings: January 13 (Hilary of Poitiers, Kentigern)
Psalm 131:2 Jeremiah 17:7-8 Luke 2:25-38

Thou in me dwelling,
and I with Thee one.

In 1 Thessaloninas 4:11 we are told to study to be quiet or study to be still. This stillness must begin in the heart. It is a decision, an active choice, to become still, to still your soul. Sometimes, it is as if there is a bunch of monkeys in the tree-which-is-your-mind; and you will not still them by shouting. If you speak quietly and gently – just as you would to a petulant child – peace will result. The mind is like a child, always wanting more, something new; each thing it sees it wants.

It is stillness I need, Lord,
and Thou in me dwelling.

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

I'm stuck up in the foothills of West Virgina on a dialup connection! Glad to see you're getting into the HTML, Scotty. If you go back to the posts for the December, you may find the link I gave everyone for the code that QT will accept. Its formating code, not programming code! Have fun with it!!!

Slan
Marty

LOL, Marty just told me last nght that QT can read HTML. I wanted to see just how much it could read. Lets just say that was a bit to much info in my test run.

HAHA, i looked at the email of the deleted post you sent and it's hilarious! HAHA.
i dont know what you are doing, but it looks like alien morse code!

Forgive my playing here, I am trying something here on the site. If you see all sor tof deleated posts, you will know it did not work. hehe

Since Marty is out for the weekend, he asked me to keep an eye on the house and be sure the kids don't have a party. hehe

Here is our daily devotional for the day:
Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Finan Readings: January 12
Psalm 32:4-9 Jeremiah 1:5 Galatians 4:4-7

Thou my great Father,
and I Thy true son…

God is nearer to you than any thought or feeling of yours… Do not be afraid. If all the evil things in the universe were around us, they could not come inside the ring that He makes about us. He always keeps a place for Himself and His child, into which no other other being can enter.
George Macdonald

God prepares good works for us to walk in, an will not give His child any gift that is less than the best.
God has plans for us, plans for good – good, not evil – but when we walk outside His will He is still there, pulling us back to Himself. We are His sons if we do His will.
We do, because we know it will please Him, not to win His love. The love is freely given and quite undeservedly. And it is only fitting that such a great Father should have in me a true son.

Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Finan Readings: January 11
Psalm 40:7 Zechariah 4:1 Luke 15:20

Thou my great Father,
and I Thy true son…

We can never be at peace till we have performed the highest duty of all, till we have arisen and gone to our Father. If we come from God, nothing is more natural than to want Him; and when we haven’t got Him, to try to find Him.
May the one Father make us all clean at last, and when the right time comes, wake us out of this sleep into the new world, which is the old one, when we shall say as one that wakes from a dream ‘Is it then over, and I live?’
George Macdonald

Hey Gina,

I so appreciate your insights! "did GOD dumb down His word so we could comprehend? That's it!!! Yet we feel so superior when you think we have a 'handle' on God's revelation to us! Not only are better than those who can't comprehend us... but we're even better than those who disagree with us!!! Its enough for us to be able to quote Him chapter and verse... never mind trying to live it.

Sort of reminds me of one of my grandsons. He got his 'big boy' underwear recently... thinks he's 'hot stuff' now! (hehehe) I think God loves us! I think He especially loves the way we make Him laugh and shake His head...
Slan
Marty

Thank you Cindy, for address Fr. Jim's words. i completely agree with you.
i totally believe in the virgin brith of Christ. i completely believe in the Nicene creed. i dont believe anything i said should have implied otherwise.

this is why i actually follow the link to the QT site, b/c it is so easy to misunderstand the context in which a statement is made when you cannot see the statements around it. and when the emails come in, they are not always in order. (plus then i can delete all but one email without reading it and just open one and follow the link- SO much easier!)

of course every aspect of GOD is important. but the fact is that we cant KNOW , we cant UNDERSTAND everything about Him until He reveals it . and some things ARE too difficult for mortal man(and woman, since we are on the topic of gender!) to understand. did GOD dumb down His word so we could comprehend? it would still be wholely true, just not as complicated for our human minds/.

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

Fr Jim - welcome back! Nice to see you posting again. I'm not sure that you answered Laurence's question about the Orthodox view of Mary but I will agree with you that yes, what we believe does matter! Christ's birth is doctrine for all Christians as you have stated! That's not optional but I don't believe anyone here would declare it otherwise. Mostly we have been talking about Mary's relationship with Joseph after Christ's birth. The Catholic mandate of Semper Virginis, is that Orthodox as well? Or is it one of those 'gray areas' of Scriptures that can only be addressed with speculation. The existence of Jesus' 'brothers and sisters' is Scriptural but where they came from, adopted, foster or actual siblings, is the issue. What is the Orthodox view of the siblings?

Laurence - I don't think you'll get much argument from us about your Marian beliefs! We do have a different concept of 'original sin' than Augustine, and that did affect us all because we live in a world different from that way God planned it for us. But the word 'sin' that we hold simply means 'missing the mark' or rather our failings! (I prefer the word 'humanity')
I will disagree with your statement that Mary wasn't 'special'. For a teenage girl to accept a pregnancy takes a tremendous act of unselfish will! That made her very special. She knew the consequences of her choice, that's why she went to visit Elizabeth. Sometimes we will be asked to bear burdens in our lives as well. It would seem to us that God could do it a different way (perhaps more to our liking) but He always has a plan and it will always benefit us and sometimes others! But no, she would probably not be too comfortable with being considered 'special' for obeying God...

You're right on about the use of the term "Theotokos", it applied more to Christ's nature than to Mary's. Here's what I have from my "Timeline of Christianity": 431 Emperor Theodosius II convokes Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus. This synod condemns Nestorianism (the belief that Christ is actually two persons), affirming the unity of Christ as perfect God and perfect man. It also affirms the title "Theotokos" for the Virgin Mary because Christ is truly God. So, my brother, you're right on! This wouldn't keep us from a special appreciation of her willing to serve God, however. She will always hold that special place in the Body of Christ for her willingness to be the bearer of the Messiah. But it should never take the form of a devotion to her that supercedes our relationship with Christ.

I liked you final statement, it's an encouragement to us all. "At the same time, it seems like God chose the best sort of people, though poor, to raise His Son." There are so many times I wish I could do more to serve Christ and I think that is what is in the heart of most true believers but He just does things so differently from the way I think! It keeps me humbled to see His simplicity affecting things in ways I never could...
Thanks again to all of you, you are the lifeline of this site! May God continue to illumine and guide us all along the path He has given us...
Slan
Marty

Father Jim said:
"Principally, it proclaims that the Virgin Birth was a myth, concocted to satisfy a societal hang-up about virginity. To believe sucvh a thing is to cease being a Christian."

Then later he said: "Thank God, neither you nor Gina--nor anyoine else on earth--has the authority to make that call."

Thank God you don't either! I was quoted out of context in the same way that I quoted you out of context here. I certainly did not mean to deny the Virgin Birth. Let me go on record as saying that I do believe in the Virgin Birth. I am so very familiar with and believe in the Nicene Creed. It's an insult to present it as though I've never seen it before, but one I can forgive for because you don't know me.

Had I been saying that Jesus was not born to a virgin, then you would be justified in what you said. Being a Christian does not mean you can pick and choose what to believe.

We were discussing something completely different when I made that comment. It comes from a historical standpoint. It IS true that the ancient people thought virgins were more holy. And whether or not Mary had any more children after Jesus is not, in my opinion and in Gina's, a critical point that should divide the Church. That's all I meant. Often emails, and message boards like this one, cause miscommunication. You sound harsh, but I suppose that's only because you felt a need to defend your faith. But it wasn't necessary. Not with me.

Cindy

Hi Marty:

You asked what I believe about Mary.

I think she was not born of a virgin, she was without
the stain of Augustine's original sin because we all
are, she died like any normal person, and she didn't
remain a virgin. She had other sons and daughters. And
I believe she found as much gratification in her
intimacy with Joseph as is normal. Of course, it's
possible that what Catholics say is correct, that she
only had other step children. But what a convenient
explanation when it preserves the Catholic Church's
dogma and theology so well.

I don't think Mary was special in nature compared to
the rest of mankind, and I doubt she would have felt
comfortable with all the veneration. My understanding
about the term Theotokos is that it refers more to
Christ's nature than marries. Nestorius got into a lot
of trouble over his opposition to the term.

If Mary is an example to us all, then I think it
behooves us all in the church to avoid creating a
madonna-type caricature. It's better to understand
what the Bible says about her true character. She was
probably a very down-to-earth sort of girl in some
ways. And I don't think there was the sort of shame
associated with sex in Judaism, when done within
marriage, that there is in Catholicism. And we don't
need to somehow explain it away because it would have
somehow transmitted original sin. If we look to Mary
as a biblical example of an ordinary human being with
ordinary passions whom God used in an extraordinary
way, it is inspiring. Especially because we are
talking about someone who had the same weaknesses as
us, and still managed to live a righteous life. At the
same time, it seems like God chose the best sort of
people, though poor, to raise His Son.

Laurence Schell




--- QuickTopic daily digest
<qtopic+31-ACD32UG6jYw@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
--QT------------------------------------------------------------- > Messages for the topic "Celtic Christian
> Spirituality" for 01-10-2007.
> Reply by email or visit
> http://www.quicktopic.com/31/H/ACD32UG6jYw
>
>
---------------------------------------------------- ------------ >
> From: Cindy Time: 08:05 AM
> Hmmm. I see that being on the digest is going to be
> a problem
> for me (have I already said that?) It's hard to keep
> up! Let's
> see...
> Marty, I'm aware of ebooks and all that. No need to
> ask your
> sister. I'm fine with waiting to see where God will
> lead my
> writing (could not say that so easily a couple of
> months ago!)
> But thanks for trying to help. Scotty, what you said
> about
> Paul's letters being read around the world without
> his knowledge
> and what he would have thought about that reminds me
> that
> everything we say here is on the Internet perhaps
> forever. Just
> a word of caution to everyone.
>
> Anyway, Gina, I surely didn't mean you asked too
> many questions!
> Of course they good ones and should be asked. Thanks
> for getting
> that discussion going. I only meant that I'm having
> trouble
> keeping up. But that's okay. I'll catch on later.
>
> Lawrence, I like Gina, always thought that
> Protestants believed
> Mary and Joseph did have other children and
> Catholics did not.
> Virgins were held in high esteemed because people
> thought they
> were more holy, so of course, the mother of Jesus
> had to be a
> virgin and remain one. But like Gina, I don't
> believe it's
> important. Unless, of course, I'm missing something
> here. (very
> possible!) Also, that Holy Grail church saying that
> the church
> worshipped Mary-- I believe that Catholics don't
> believe in
> worshiping Mary, but many Protestants believe that
> Catholics do
> worship her. It's a gray area I don't fully
> understand. Maybe
> that could be yet another discussion thread.
>
> And a prayer request about our closing: it probably
> won't come
> to anything, but the seller of our new house is
> saying he
> doesn't have to pay his tax assessments. He does,
> according to
> our contract and according to our lawyer. I think it
> just won't
> be a friendly closing when we see him face to face.
> It's not our
> fault. His agent should have caught that in the
> contract and
> explained it to him. We have a few remedy items to
> finish up on
> our house today and tomorrow, but that shouldn't be
> too big a
> deal either. But buyer's agent will be here in our
> house when it
> happens. Ugh! Be glad when the 20th comes!
> Cindy
>
------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Cindy Time: 08:29 AM
> Lee Strobel, perhaps best known for the book, The
> Case for
> Christ, has a lot of information on his site about
> the Gnostic
> texts. All of this was in response to the Da Vinci
> Code, but
> some of you may find these videos informative:
> http://www.leestrobel.com/davinci.htm Especially
> this one:
>
http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/davinci/strobelT1083.htm
> and
> this one
>
http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/davinci/CCNT1526.htm
> by Erwin Lutzer.
>
> Cindy
>
------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Cindy Time: 08:36 AM
> This video actually is probably more with what we've
> been
> talking about:
>
http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/davinci/strobelT1111.htm
>
------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Martin Farrell Time: 08:54 AM
> Dia anseo isteach!
> God to all here!
>
> Hey Cindy,
>
> Yeah, the 'catch up' can be a problem sometimes when
> you're on
> the Daily Digest! But the volume will still be the
> same!
> Sometimes we just talk a lot!!!
>
> As for the 'word of caution', thanks. Actually, I'm
> very proud
> of what we are doing here and would not wish to
> hold back any
> of our truths. There are many more people looking
> at us then
> who actually post here! I am hoping that the Lord
> is in all we
> say and do and that by our conversations others are
> being
> blessed. Having been on other boards, and even our
> predecessor
> - Celtic Christianity - QT
> (http://www.quicktopic.com/18/H/p28S2hsBs3gj), I
> realize all to
> well that the foolishness (the reason we came here)
> that went
> on there will be there also until the Lord
> returns.(Quick Topic
> policy) There are several other CC boards, that I
> once was part
> of, that simply spew out their distain for
> Christians who are
> not in the same mindset as they. It is sad, but as
> the
> Scriptures declare, "every word is counted"!
> In your first post today you stated that "I believe
> that
> Catholics don't believe in worshiping Mary" Marian
> worship is
> a fact in Catholicism although they prefer the term
> 'devotion'.
> Back in college (SJU), Catholic Theology was a
> requirement
> each semester. It was in the 60's and the Documents
> of Vatican
> II had just come out. Exciting times then!!! There
> were some
> major changes in Catholicism but mostly they held to
> the older
> "Canon Law" that governed the Church. In
> Catholicism, there are
> three forms of worship - 'Latria, Dulia, and hyper
> Dulia'. I
> forget which is which regarding Mary but they
> reserved one for
> God, one for the Saints and one for Mary. She was
> held in
> higher regard than other saints. Perhaps someone
> else can
> clarify it better for you. In my Orthodox studies,
> I have
> found that they use the word 'venerate' to describe
> their
> appreciation for Mary and the Saints. But in that
> tradition,
> Mary is given a special title of 'Theotokos',
> reserved
> especially for her. Actually, I don't have a
> problem with
> appreciating her as a role model for us all! But I
> know that
> 'Marian worship' is not highly regarded by most
> Protestants and
> considered 'heresy' by some of the more Fundamental
> Christians.
>
> Here's something you didn't consider... Celtic
> Christians
> believe that Eternity is within us now. It is part
> of the
> Presence of God within us all. Where are all the
> saints who
> have gone before us? Are they not within Eternity
> too? So, we
> believe that we are in the constant presence of the
> Communion
> of Saints with only the thinnest of veils between
> us! Something
> to think about!
>
> For your house closing, I've never heard of one that
> didn't have
> some snags! But we'll still be praying for you and
> your
=== message truncated ===


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CHRIST IS BORN! (Old Calendar)
  GLORIFY HIM!
   
  Hi, Cindy--
   
  >>
  Virgins were held in high esteemed because people thought they
were more holy, so of course, the mother of Jesus had to be a
virgin and remain one
  >>
  >
  That statement carries a lot of baggage. Principally, it proclaims that the Virgin Birth was a myth, concocted to satisfy a societal hang-up about virginity. To believe sucvh a thing is to cease being a Christian.
   
  To proclaim oneself a Christian is to proclaim,
   
  I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and earth;
  And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made: Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
   
  And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver oif life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the prophets.
  And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the Resurrection of the dead, and the Life of the world to come. Amen.
  We do not believe these things because clever men sat down and concocted some new mythology to replace the old ones. We believe them because they are the things that actually happened, that God did and does among us as part and parcel of His lifemon earth as the God-man and the resulting restoration of the Bridge between the worlds.
   
  In short, we believe them because they are true.
   
  To believe something else is to prefer the myths, evasions and foolishnesses of a dying world, which clings to death like a life-raft because that is the only end it can see; which demands that all creeds, all beliefs, all assumptions defer to death, because that is its only ultimate; and whose standard of truth is the individual foible of the individual person, because it doesn't matter, anyway, and we might as well all just be as comfortable as we can be.
   
  When we walk away from the reveraled and proclaimed Truth of the Faith, that is what we walk toward-- because there is no other destination.
  >
  >>
  >
  like Gina, I don't believe it's
important.
  >>
  >
  Thank God, neither you nor Gina--nor anyoine else on earth--has the authority to make that call.
  When we stop yielding to the Faith, that it may change us, and begin to try to make it yield to our imaginings, that we might change it, we become faithless. Tuis is what has happened to the Mainline Protestant churches, once so devoted and now so barren, having traded Godly riches for worldly pretensions. It is happening to the Evangelicals, as morals decline and Christ is mocked by "Christians" living together before mariage and getting divorced after, convinced their feelings carry more authority than the Word of God.
   
  Tgis is a serious business we're involved in, dear sister. It is not serious because there are critical decisions we have to make about what we are and are not going to believe, but because the Christian Faith--that which we should believe--is out there, available and plaionly spoken, and we have to decide whether we're going to accept it, reject it or devote opurt lives, like nasty children, to figuring out how much we can get away with.
   
  It all matters.
   
  There is nothing too bad for God to forgive, and nothing too big for Him to forget. But He wants us to allow Him to configure our hearts to desire the things of Him. And He wants us to simply surrender to Him, and to accept the fact that God is the Lord and has revealed Himself to us. That is the first step--to realize that when we disagree with what God has said--or try to fool ourselves into thinking that it "might not really" have been what He said--we are wrong. Until we do that, forgiveness of sin is far from us, because we will think it unnecessary to ask for it.
   
  The first acid test of this is, do I believe the Creed? If I waffle, equivocate, spirtualize, temporize, quote "lots of people" etc., I may be a very nice person who has a certain affection for Christ and who likes to hang out in churches--but I am, by definition, not a Christian.
  Blessings--
   
  Fr. Jim <><
   

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Celtic Daily Prayer from the Northumbria Community
Finan Readings: January 10
Psalm 139:7-12 2 Kings 6:16-17 Romans 8:38-39

I ever with Thee,
and Thou with me, Lord…

‘I am with you always,’ He says. He is all around His people, as strong and reliable as the mountains. He wants us to be with Him, prepares a place for us to share, comes to our place, to our ordinariness, shares bread and wine at table. The commonplace is given great significance because of His presence.
Jesus often turned up in unexpected places and in unexpected ways. When we do not see Jesus around us, it is often because we do not look well enough.

Open my eyes to see.
I ever with Thee,
and Thou with me, Lord.

Greetings Laurence,

For some reason I never received your original post but... that's not unusual sometimes here!

Gina has addressed the situation with her usual clarity of thought! God has no need of a gender! Whenever Christ was trying to teach His apostles or multitudes of people He used parables so that they could understand Him. Mostly, it is very difficult for us (humans) to comprehend the things of God. He is just way 'outside the box'! It really isn't a matter of God is both or God is neither... it is just irrelevant! The Scriptures were written so that we can understand God within the framework of our abilities. God is both nurturing and protectively so! This concept is understood within the framework of gender because that is how we identify ourselves. But God is well above that!

Here's another example, we have a line in one of our prayers that blew me away once. It goes like this, "We are children of Eternity born in Time." If you stop and think about it, not only are we presently living in Eternity, this entire realm had to be created just to give us some substance! God is Eternal, we are created in His image, we are Eternal! Linear time (the way we think) had to be 'invented'! Its alien to God! Yet all that we do and think hinges on past, present, future! Once we are in His Presence this realm becomes completely irrelevant to us! It will be the same with gender than as well. That too was created for this realm. Maybe its not your typical Christian concept but that's what I enjoy about CC. It begins with God's view instead of our own!

As for Pat Robertson, don't worry about what he says. As Gina mentioned, once he was a really good teacher / preacher, but as of late he's come out with some pretty strange stuff. Don't hold all Protestants under the same banner. It would be like saying that all Catholics believe in all their Church's doctrines! You and I both know how varied people are even within the same belief system.

I went to the site to read your original post. I was looking for what it was that you believe about Mary. I can't find there what it is that you believe! Perhaps you might simply wish to express yourself here and see how we respond? Remember, there are no 'wrong answers' in 'Share Inquiry'! Truly, that's what this board is about. We are only experts in what the Lord has taught us and we know He made us to share it with each other so we might learn that too!

Okay, the dinner bell just rang, I'd better get going! Thanks again for participating here...

Slan

Laurence,

we need to look at what gender really is. gender is defined by : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

ok so maybe GOD has both masculine and feminine qualities, but as a GOD who does not reproduce He does not need a physical sex. so to say He is a man or woman is incorrect b/c GOD does not reproduce. in the same way a perfectly normal person has both masculine and feminine traits - such as being nurturing (fem) and aggressive (mas) GOD also has both traits.

but again, we have trouble seeing GOD in terms that dont relate well to our human-ness because every living thing we see has a physical gender. so traditionally GOD has been assigned to the male gender. does it matter? no. Jesus was male. is it possible GOD chose to do this to reveal more of His nature to us or was Christ's sex chosen b/c it was more practical ( a female Massiah would have been largely ignored- as women did not have many rights in that region and time). either way it doesnt change The Sacrifice, the path to Salvation, and The Message.

"Pat Robertson explained that Christ could not be
stained with original sin because it can only be
passed through the male line"

ok, is this really even the most bizzare thing Pat Robertson has said? i long ago stopped listening to this man. i used to belong to the 700 club. i sent my monthly check b/c i wanted to give to GOD and i didnt know where else to do so. then the 2004 election came around and Pat Robertson became deeply political- at that point i felt like i was contributing more to a political party than a religious organization. i dont doubt Pat Robertson's devotion. but i am not so sure of his methods and (alot) of his statements.

Marty & Gina:

Thank you for responding to my post. I can't say that
I agree with the quote from the Grail Church, although
parts of it sound somewhat okay. I tried to think of
some Bible verses where the Holy Spirit is seen in a
productive capacity that reminds me of mothers.
Genesis 1:1 came to mind, where the Spirit is
"brooding" in the process of creation.

Of course, God created them male and female in His
image. And I asked the question whether God could be
both male and female or neither male nor female. But
I'm not willing to drive any doctrinal stakes in the
ground in favor of this interpretation. I have always
said that God is male and the Church (the Bride) is
female. But that raises some further questions because
the Bride has male and female parts (us), which is
what the Grail Church is saying about God. I notice
too that in nature men really do have a male and a
female part, the X and Y chromosomes.

I agree with you, Gina, that it's not an important
subject that concerns our salvation. The reason I
asked is that I really can't abide the Catholic
viewpoint on Mary and whether or not she had children
and even sex and original sin. But I have heard
Protestants say some strange things on these lines
too. Pat Robertson explained that Christ could not be
stained with original sin because it can only be
passed through the male line. That's bizarre. I don't
believe it passed by procreation at all. If it were
than Christ would be stained by Mary. I only want to
know if the Celtic and Orthodox positions about Mary
having children and sex are more reasonable than the
Catholic and Protestant branches of the faith. I am
looking for the common ground that I have with other
Christians. But I don't want to give up any ground to
that which seems absurd.

Laurence Schell


 
 
  
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when i was little and i believed what they said about catholics at my church, i told a another little girl that she wasnt a christian b/c she was catholic. it made her cry. i really regret that and i dont know why it has always stuck with me, but i am very ashamed of that moment.

Down here if you ask a Catholic, they say I am not Christian,
I am Catholic. It drives us nuts

I think this will end up being several posts, so I can keep it all straight. On the subject of Mary:
She is called the co-redeemer and the queen of heaven. Living in a predominately Catholic part of the country, I am confronted with Catholicism every day and as I am sure Marty will profess to as well most Catholics have no idea what the true teaching of the church really are. Good or bad.
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus (Immaculate Conception)of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin." MMM That is, lets see, 1850+ years after Christ.
Mary's perpetual virginity was defined under anathema in the third canon of the Lateran Council held in the time of Pope Martin I, A.D. 649. Again many years after the death of Christ. Many of the Church Fathers made reference to Mary’s virginity, but I have not had time to read the actual accounts that the Catholic Church makes claims to. Many of the claims point to Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
But I read that as the pre-birth of Christ and not post. I do hold Mary in high honors, as we should. She was in fact chosen by God to bring forth His Child. But to make her Co-Redeemer, Mother of God, and Queen of Heaven is simply elevating her to honors worthy of to the Creator.

Scotty

and Marty, yes we were also taught about those poor lost penecostal souls- they have fallen prey to demons who have them speaking in tongues and jumping up and down like possesed people! hahahahahahaha! *sigh* it isnt funny b/c some of them went on to believe it, but if you dont laugh, you cry.

i worry that one of the church elders is responsible for him thinking like that. the last service we went to, a deacon(?) got up and made a speach about the first time he and his wife chose to give money they gave a dollar promising that if GOD blessed them with more, they would give the full of that blessing back to GOD. they went on saying that everytime money fell into his lap he'd give, and everytime he'd give more fell into his lap. then he said that this was the promise of GOD. i think that sends out the wrong message. and people like Pat who are so new to this listen to it and think "GOD is going to give me money (or whatever it is i want) b/c i'm a good believer."

now maybe GOD is blessing him b/c he has been such a blessing to us! (i'd like to think so anyways- it's certainly possible!) he refuses to let steve and i pay him for his help on our new house (he has alot of experience since he just did a whole house remodel on his own home). we're going to give him something anyways, but his generosity isnt unnoticed! i have been praying for blessings on them, maybe this is GOD's answer!

Hey Gina,

So... you did hear about Catholics! "(we were told that catholics arent really christian)" Maybe you should ask around about that 'chute' I mentioned earlier! (hehehe) Funny that we are so diverse and hold each other in such suspicion! (NOT!!) But to be honest, it exists between Baptists and Pentecostals as well. But we (demon filled) Pentecostals tolerate such attitudes from our (less spiritual) Baptist brethren...
Again, you have a good grasp on Mary's place in the Celtic mindset. She is one of us as are all the other Saints! As a child though, my Irish Catholic mother would always tell me to pray to her because Jesus had to obey His mother too! But... I never did get that pony!

$500!!! What denomination, tradition promises that? Rest assured, he'll learn about dieing to himself soon enough... But... let's praise God anyway for his salvation!!!

Slan

"but many Protestants believe that Catholics do worship her."
Cindy you are absolutely right. we were always warned about the evils of catholicism growing up and that was a big one (it's why we were told that catholics arent really christian.)
but after having spent alot of time talking with roman catholics, they told me it's just asking the church in heaven to pray on your behalf. that they also pray directly to GOD, but just like we ask our friends and family on earth to pray for us, it's asking those in heaven to do the same. i have met some catholics who did take it as far as worship (some are like that with all saints- and it turns Christianity into a pantheism of sorts). but most modern catholics have turned away from that and now just see the saints (and Mary) as someone to fellowship with (thru study and whatnot)

we were lucky (or blessed i should say) that we were friends with the man who we bought the house off of. we also had some snags, but they werent with him.

just a new story about Steve's friend Pat (the one who recently became a Christian). Pat is fasting with the church (open invite to join but no one was pushed or coerced to fast too) and he's not really sure-doesnt really have a clear understanding about fasting and why we do it. but now he's convinced tha GOD is pleased with his fasting b/c yesterday he bought a scratchers loto ticket on a whim and won $500.00. *sigh* i'm worried he believes that once you are a christian that everything falls into place and goes well.

Hey Cindy,

Thanks for the music link! I've listened to that one in the past and its pretty good. My favorite stations, though, are on Live 365.com (http://www.live365.com/). There are two Celtic Christian stations there, Celtic Christian Tunes and Celtic Christian Spirit. I'm not sure if they're available to the general public without a subscription but, for the money, I really like having CC music to listen to. (its so hard to find!!!) In a way, I think having our own music and stations gives Celtic Christianity a little more credibility, so I don't mind paying for it so it'll be around! Give it a try and let me know what you think of it...
Slan

Thanks, Marty.

Here's another link, in case anyone wants to just listen to music while going about their busy day (like I am right now, trying to figure out where the water under the frig is coming from!)

http://www.cmradio.net/listen/celtic/

Cindy

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Cindy,

Yeah, the 'catch up' can be a problem sometimes when you're on the Daily Digest! But the volume will still be the same! Sometimes we just talk a lot!!!

As for the 'word of caution', thanks. Actually, I'm very proud of what we are doing here and would not wish to hold back any of our truths. There are many more people looking at us then who actually post here! I am hoping that the Lord is in all we say and do and that by our conversations others are being blessed. Having been on other boards, and even our predecessor - Celtic Christianity - QT (http://www.quicktopic.com/18/H/p28S2hsBs3gj), I realize all to well that the foolishness (the reason we came here) that went on there will be there also until the Lord returns.(Quick Topic policy) There are several other CC boards, that I once was part of, that simply spew out their distain for Christians who are not in the same mindset as they. It is sad, but as the Scriptures declare, "every word is counted"!
In your first post today you stated that "I believe that Catholics don't believe in worshiping Mary" Marian worship is a fact in Catholicism although they prefer the term 'devotion'. Back in college (SJU), Catholic Theology was a requirement each semester. It was in the 60's and the Documents of Vatican II had just come out. Exciting times then!!! There were some major changes in Catholicism but mostly they held to the older "Canon Law" that governed the Church. In Catholicism, there are three forms of worship - 'Latria, Dulia, and hyper Dulia'. I forget which is which regarding Mary but they reserved one for God, one for the Saints and one for Mary. She was held in higher regard than other saints. Perhaps someone else can clarify it better for you. In my Orthodox studies, I have found that they use the word 'venerate' to describe their appreciation for Mary and the Saints. But in that tradition, Mary is given a special title of 'Theotokos', reserved especially for her. Actually, I don't have a problem with appreciating her as a role model for us all! But I know that 'Marian worship' is not highly regarded by most Protestants and considered 'heresy' by some of the more Fundamental Christians.

Here's something you didn't consider... Celtic Christians believe that Eternity is within us now. It is part of the Presence of God within us all. Where are all the saints who have gone before us? Are they not within Eternity too? So, we believe that we are in the constant presence of the Communion of Saints with only the thinnest of veils between us! Something to think about!

For your house closing, I've never heard of one that didn't have some snags! But we'll still be praying for you and your husband that God will be with you and evident in all you do...

Thanks for the links you provided, I'll check them out a little later in the day. Even retired people have things to do too!!!

Well, may God richly bless us this day and guide us all along His Way...
Slan
Marty

This video actually is probably more with what we've been talking about: http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/davinci/strobelT1111.htm

Lee Strobel, perhaps best known for the book, The Case for Christ, has a lot of information on his site about the Gnostic texts. All of this was in response to the Da Vinci Code, but some of you may find these videos informative: http://www.leestrobel.com/davinci.htm Especially this one: http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/davinci/strobelT1083.htm and this one http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/davinci/CCNT1526.htm by Erwin Lutzer.

Cindy

Hmmm. I see that being on the digest is going to be a problem for me (have I already said that?) It's hard to keep up! Let's see...
Marty, I'm aware of ebooks and all that. No need to ask your sister. I'm fine with waiting to see where God will lead my writing (could not say that so easily a couple of months ago!) But thanks for trying to help. Scotty, what you said about Paul's letters being read around the world without his knowledge and what he would have thought about that reminds me that everything we say here is on the Internet perhaps forever. Just a word of caution to everyone.

Anyway, Gina, I surely didn't mean you asked too many questions! Of course they good ones and should be asked. Thanks for getting that discussion going. I only meant that I'm having trouble keeping up. But that's okay. I'll catch on later.

Lawrence, I like Gina, always thought that Protestants believed Mary and Joseph did have other children and Catholics did not. Virgins were held in high esteemed because people thought they were more holy, so of course, the mother of Jesus had to be a virgin and remain one. But like Gina, I don't believe it's important. Unless, of course, I'm missing something here. (very possible!) Also, that Holy Grail church saying that the church worshipped Mary-- I believe that Catholics don't believe in worshiping Mary, but many Protestants believe that Catholics do worship her. It's a gray area I don't fully understand. Maybe that could be yet another discussion thread.

And a prayer request about our closing: it probably won't come to anything, but the seller of our new house is saying he doesn't have to pay his tax assessments. He does, according to our contract and according to our lawyer. I think it just won't be a friendly closing when we see him face to face. It's not our fault. His agent should have caught that in the contract and explained it to him. We have a few remedy items to finish up on our house today and tomorrow, but that shouldn't be too big a deal either. But buyer's agent will be here in our house when it happens. Ugh! Be glad when the 20th comes!
Cindy

Finan Readings: January 9
Psalm 51:9 Proverbs 4:5-9 Ephesians 1:17

Be Thou my wisdom,
be Thou my true word...

Wisdom cannot be learnt with just he head; to temper its logic the heart must also be engaged. Wisdom is not in short supply, surprising as it may seem. We have not, precisely because we forget to ask.
Wisdom is to be desired more than gold. Solomon asked for wisdom; and God was very pleased that he did not ask for riches. However, having asked for wisdom, he got riches too.

Lord of my heart,
be Thou my wisdom.
Be at the beginning of all I speak,
of all that I begin.
Be Thou my true word.

it's cool, i have to go the library anyways, for one, i need new reading material, two i like to visit my friends there, and three i miss working there so it's kinda nostalgic walking thru the asiles. hehe.

but thanks for the link, i will definitely read more there, plus it's good to have references like that anyways.

question in regards to that there was a quote on that page----
"The original Aramaic version was lost until the Dead Sea fragments were discovered."
"The original language of most of this work was, in all likelihood, Aramaic (an early Semitic language). Although the original version was lost in antiquity, portions of a Greek translation were discovered in Egypt and quotations were known from the Church Fathers. The discovery of the texts from Qumran Cave 4 has finally provided parts of the Aramaic original. ...Humankind is called on to observe how unchanging nature follows God's will."
     - Milik, Jazef. T., ed. The Books of Enoch: Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4

so Enoch was in the Dead Sea Scrolls? what all were in those? my old Sunday school teacher had told us that they were exactly the same as what was in the Bible, but if Enoch was in them then that wasnt true! (i really wish they didnt allow just ANYONE to teach sunday school)

more later!

Gina,

I will save ya the trip to the library.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm

laurence,

i have to tell you, i have heard alot of theories on who's children the brothers that are refered to are. some catholics have told me that they believe that Joseph may have come into his marriage to Mary with children from a deceased wife (not at all uncommon- women died in childbirth so easily back then and it was normal for the next wife to raise the kids from the deceased wife as her own- plus it would mean that Joseph was a good deal older than Mary- also not uncommon)

some have said that they think it may have been cousins, but when refering to John the Baptist, Christ's actual cousin, they never called him Christ's brother, so it doesnt fit the pattern. (at least not to me).

most protestants believe that Mary DID enjoy a sexual relationship with Joseph after the birth of Jesus and did provide him with other children. i always thought that was so, but i'm willing to accept the other theories as well. it matters not to me, i cant see how it changes what Jesus did on the cross or His resurection (which is the most important factors in Christianity- at least i believe so). but it is a great discussion topic.
i'm glad you asked. so, i gave you what i know (or think i know!) maybe someone else can illuminate you more!

Blessings
Gina

Greetings Laurence,

And welcome back!

While I don't speak for everyone on this site, nor would I want to, I do think its safe to say that most of us here would greatly disagree with the assertions made in the quote you presented. In this section, "The spiritual void left by that view of God drove the
Church to Mary worship. Unfortunately, it was an incomplete and sexless Mary." I'm not even sure what he's trying to say! It seems to me in this section that they are simply trying to a 'cheap shot' at Western attitudes towards sexuality. I just can't figure out how to connect that to the 'spiritual void' comment!?

One of the consequences between St Augustine and Pelagius (St Morgan) was an attack on human sexuality. Again I'll recommend B.R. Rees's book "Pelagius - Life and Letters" for a thorough explanation of this exchange. The argument about 'original sin' had many side effects including infant baptism, sexuality and the nature of grace. Many believe that Pelagius was excommunicated because of his opposition to original sin but that is incorrect! It was his belief that we didn't need God's continuing grace to live a holy life that set him apart from Christian doctrine, and rightly so! That even set him apart from Celtic Theology as well!
This part "Celtic theology teaches that the Holy Spirit is the representative of God's femininity and that sexuality is reflective of God's creative power." is a complete fabrication! While its true that the Greek word used here is feminine in structure, it does not imbue the Holy Spirit with any gender. The Holy Spirit, as the Third Person of the Trinity, is one essence with God Who is complete and in no need of being defined by a gender! To do so is to try to separate the Trinity into 2 & 1, not 3! It seems the statement is reflexive of the more modern Wiccan concept that pervades some people's thinking.

The 'creative power' mentioned above is totally misconstrued as well. The God we serve, the God of Creation, is a God of passion! Passion has nothing to do with sexuality, it is a matter of the heart! God CREATED because of His Passion, He didn't procreate! It is His Passion that is the root of His Love for us! The Celts were PASSIONATE people so this rang true to their understandings of life. Yet it was never an excuse for sexual license... merely the liberty to be true to ourselves as God created us. The pre-Christian Celts, especially the women, were free to engage in 'outside' relationships, so perhaps they are trying to join that tidbit into their doctrine!? However, once Christ became the Lover of their Soul, they put that type of lifestyle behind them for the Love of their Lord.
I'll let Fr Jim answer from the Orthodox view about Mary's other children. As for the Celts, if that's what it said in Scriptures... that's what they believed! The doctrine of 'Semper Virginis' came a bit later in time. As for the "traditional Western Christianity has denied the validity of human sexuality" that brings us back to the Pelagian issue. The Celtic Church, while it existed, never subscribed to the doctrine on celibacy for their clergy. They would never deny the need for physical intimacy in the lives of all of God's children. To do so is to deny the gift of 'sharing' your life with another. They viewed it more as participating in the 'mystical union' that was part of the Trinity. And... that is correct! It was/is God's gift to us! Satan had nothing to do with it as was held in the Roman Church. We lost a lot in the West to bad theology back then! This group we are discussing is even worse off for its 'bad theology'!

Well... sorry for the rant! But honestly.. its YOUR fault! You ask good questions! BTW, did you try seeing your greeting on site at CCS? I'm wondering if is was closer to your location rather than your email handler? (London, UK)

May the Lord of all Light continue to illumine our hearts and minds here...
Slan
Marty

scotty,

this is really great material! thanks, i want to mull it over a bit, (perhaps see if i can get a copy of the book of enoch from the library- where i'm checking out the catholic bible that has the apocryphal books-i already made sure they had it, though i might not be able to obtain it today.)

again, i have always wanted to read Enoch since i heard about it. why was it decided to leave it out of the Bible if it was so widely accepted before?

i have heard a great deal lately about how dangerous the gnostic beliefs were to early christianity (and even today as it has been revived) Gnosis meaning "to know" - that's so misleading, it makes people think that Gnostics have all the answers. and its more dualtheistic than monotheistic, isnt it? they believe in an evil creator god and a loving redeemer god? even wikipedia (which is usually pretty ignorant about christianity) says that this really isnt a christian religion. "Gnosticism is a word derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning knowledge. It is a term created by modern scholars to describe a diverse religious movement often associated with Christianity, although textual evidence for the movement contains distinctly non- and anti-Christian elements, as well as anti-Judaic elements."- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

well, i'm excited to have a new study topic, but i gotta get back to work and do some insurance quotes for people. later!

Blessings
Gina

Hi Everyone:

The Grail Church does seem nutty, and I don't think
they offer a lot of proof for their assertions that I
read.

But their take on CC brought up a question. I quote:
"The spiritual void left by that view of God drove the
Church to Mary worship. Unfortunately, it was an
incomplete and sexless Mary. Celtic theology teaches
that the Holy Spirit is the representative of God's
femininity and that sexuality is reflective of God's
creative power. It views Mary as a woman who had
other children besides Jesus."

I'd like to know whether the Celtic Christians on this
list disagree with any of the statements here. Also,
what was the Celtic Christian teaching and what is the
Orthodox teaching on whether Mary had other children?
My Roman Catholic brother says they were really
cousins and that Jesus was an only child. But my
reading of scripture says that He did indeed have
brothers and sisters.

And don't you think perhaps that they have a point
that traditional Western Christianity has denied the
validity of human sexuality?

Laurence Schell

--- QuickTopic daily digest
<qtopic+31-ACD32UG6jYw@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
--QT------------------------------------------------------------- > Messages for the topic "Celtic Christian
> Spirituality" for 01-08-2007.
> Reply by email or visit
> http://www.quicktopic.com/31/H/ACD32UG6jYw
>
>
---------------------------------------------------- ------------ >
> From: Martin Farrell Time: 07:34 AM
> Dia anseo isteach!
>
> Greetings all,
>
> Hey Scotty, thanks for the IM about Beliefnet. I've
> already
> tried signing in... According to the Java script a
> pop-up
> window is supposed to bring me there but its not
> happening! I
> click and it just stares at me...
> I took out a subscription to one of their daily
> devotionals but
> that didn't get me in either! So... I'll have to
> try something
> else! Thanks again for the advice buddy. ttyl
>
> Slan
> Marty
>
------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Gina Time: 10:35 AM
> Marty it took me a couple times (this was three
> years ago- i had
> hoped that they had this problem fixed by now). i
> didnt receive
> the Daily's until almost a week after i signed up
> for them!!
> as far as the pop up window (this may be a stupid
> question) did
> you make sure you turned off pop up blocker when you
> went on
> that site? i have the worst trouble with my blocker.
> try that
> and let me know.
> i'll see if i can find 'lilla08', but i will have to
> go to a
> board that she is on to find her, b/c you cant just
> look up
> someone by their name on B_net.
>
> the Celtic Christianity board there gets maybe one
> message a
> month. less lately, so dont be surprised if we do
> not hear back
> from her for QUITE a while~! it's been at least two
> months since
> i've been in that board.
>
> but i'll definitely try for ya!
>
> Blessings
> Gina
>
------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Gina Time: 10:46 AM
> i found the post you were refering to marty, did you
> notice that
> it was from march of last year? i'll still send her
> a message
> letting her know that we're here, i'll post it on
> the thread
> there or start a new one with our web address here.
>
> later!
>
------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Martin Farrell Time: 11:12 AM
> Hey Gina,
>
> Thanks! I appreciate the effort on my behalf. I
> know the post
> is a few months old but the chance of 'non-virtual'
> fellowship
> is worth the try! I finally managed to get into
> the
> 'Registration' area of Beliefnet but the process
> failed
> mid-way. I sent them an email to inform them of it.
> Yesterday,
> when I saw the java script on the bottom taskbar, I
> made sure
> all the pop-ups were enabled for this board. Its
> strange, it
> only seems selective with popups, not links!
> That's why I
> figured it was a programming glitch...
>
> Thanks again for your efforts. How's the house
> coming along?
> When do you go to signing and move in? I want to
> make sure
> you're 'prayed up' for it! So much of your future
> depends on
> you and Steve having your own space right now.
>
> Hey Cindy,
>
> What's the good word with you? Did you sign yet?
> Are you in
> already? How's your next book coming along?
>
> Has anyone gone 'onsite' to check out their
> greeting? I'm
> wondering how accurate they are. Let me know what
> you think.
> Okay, have a great day all...
>
> Slan
>
------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Gina Time: 11:24 AM
> Hey Marty!
> No problem!
>
> we have signed and have already started working on
> the house.
> last night we ripped up the old carpet and some of
> the old trim.
> (we gotta shop-vac the floor underneath- we're
> putting in either
> hardwood or wood-laminate and we need to have a good
> clean base
> floor) we also have to go buy wall mudd so we can
> start fixing
> the uneven-ness of the walls (our other option is to
> re-drywall
> the walls- and i dont want it to come to that!) and
> we have to
> gut the dinning room b/c of the bad shape of the
> walls (and
> possibly ceiling) and then there is some walls (like
> the wall
> that has been added in the master bedroom to create
> a closet in
> the dinning room- dont ask) we are demolishing.new
> trim, and
> doors and vent covers. *sigh* lots of work, but we
> plan to get
> it all done and be moved in under 2 months.
>
> we knew it was going to be a fixer, in fact we
> purposely bought
> the worst house in a great neighborhood so that the
> value would
> be easy to raise with some esthetic work. and we are
> doing most
> of the work ourselves so we hope to save money
> there.
>
> i'm also hoping that the amount of time and work
> both steve and
> i are going to be putting into this rehab is going
> to leave us
> to tired and busy to argue. and then once we're
> actually in
> it'll be like a new start.
>
> i could still use the prayer- pray that we dont have
> too many
> unexpected surprises while we work on our house! and
> that by
> working together on it, we'll learn how to deal with
> one another
> better.
>
>
> also, i wanted to add that i found this site
>
> http://www.grailchurch.org/celtic.htm
>
> check it out and let me know your thoughts. i might
> write to the
> address on the bottom of the site and see what kind
> of info
> they'll send me. (sorry if this is a site that you
> already knew
> about.- our archives will take me a while to really
> go thru and
> this is one of the sites that came up in my most
> recent search)
>
> Blessings!
> Gina
>
------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Martin Farrell Time: 11:49 AM
> Hey Gina,
>
> "pray that we dont have too many unexpected
> surprises while we
> work on our house!" Sorry dear! You'll just have
> to get used
> to the idea of 'unexpected surprises when you do
> renovations!
> Think of it as a dance step, one step for ... two
> steps back...
>
=== message truncated ===


Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Edited by author 01-09-2007 01:56 PM
OK, Since you got my geek button up here. I was reading Enoch [Chapter 9]
1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being 2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. 3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause 4 before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the 5 ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all 6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which 7 men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the 9 women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have 10 borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are 11 wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'


This fits perfect into our thread about Original Sin. It is interesting to note that Azazel would be connected to the Nephilim as out lined in Gen 6. (MMM, interesting. I tried to do a word search for Nephilim and it could not be found in the on line KJV, I am using. It was changed to Sons of man. Now I know I did have a bible that had Nephilim in it. Now you got me going!!) Any way. I think the book of Enoch is old enough and had enough wide spread circulation that it has to have some place in the teachings of the church. Now I know that a lot of the Gnostic text answered so many unanswered questions, it was discredited for that very reason. It was obvious that the writer wanted to fill the gaps that were created by the excepted cannon. Hence the name Gnostic or (Wisdom).
Ok now geek has to go back to work and make money. Happy chewing. Hehe

Scotty

Gina,

Several of the writings you are referring to are of the Gnostic texts. They were pretty much excluded from the very beginning. Some were so heretical and against the teachings of the church, it was obvious they were forgeries or outside of the teachings of the church.

Others came much later and the writers could not be identified. Some of the criteria included a general consensus as to the author and also if it was wide spread through out the church. We need to keep in mind that most of the books (letters) were written to one person or to one church. They felt it so important in it’s teachings that they would share it with others within the region. Imagine if you will, a simple letter (e-mail) you would write to a friend concerning your faith. And before you knew it, it was shared throughout the internet or family as something so important that they felt that Gina’s thoughts had to be shared with others. Or better yet, imagine Cindy’s books ending up in every church in the country without promotion.

I am sure that Paul had no idea that we would be reading his personal letters 2000 years later. A simple letter could be so wide spread, reprinted to perfect, and preserved over such time and space. This is the power of God at work. That compounded with the idea that the same teachings were being shared independent from one another. I think that if we would like to study such writings, it would be best to pick a book and go from there. For me personally, I would love to start with the book of Enoch.
The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century "Epistle of Barnabus" makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation.
Ok that should get us started.
Scotty

Hey Gina,

Before I retired, I was trained in a teaching technique called "Shared Inquiry". I loved to use it with kids with their Reading assignments. The only right answers were what each one thought a section meant. In the discussion, they all got to share and discuss they're various viewpoints. This gave the kid who was 'usually wrong' a venue for expressing himself without any criticism from his peers. And sometimes, it made others think a bit more outside the box they were stuck in! While we all have a lot of experience in God's involvement in our lives, this is the place for sharing it. Celtic Christianity is 'outside' the box! And I believe, closer to what God wants for every Christian!

Never apologize for the questions. As you know, we have all heard each others answers for years! Without questions ... there's nothing to discuss. No discussion... what's the point of being here? So... I am very glad for any questions from anyone!!! We all came here just so that we might provide a safe haven and a guide to those who are searching for their way along the Celtic Path. Our purpose IS to answer questions! The nice part of being here goes beyond just the few of us who participate, though. There are people from all over the States and even other continents who read our discussions! Not only are we becoming a family in Christ, we serve as a teaching ministry to our 'quieter' members as well! For that, I am very grateful!! As the Light grows within us, God reveals Himself even more in our daily lives.

Well, I'll let you get back to work... Thank you all for allowing God to use you here...!

Slan

"So, Gina, anytime you're ready... so are we!"

Hehe, let me get the book, start reading it, and we'll begin! i think i'll have to do it like i read a section, post it, and then ask a discussion question. how does that sound? i have never been a teacher so i am not really sure how to lead a discussion! but i'm more than willing to learn!

it may be a while before we get any beliefnet.com people, it isnt very livily there, but hopefully someone will check it out.

sorry ALL the questions LOL! when i get on a thread of thought i want to write it down before i forget!

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! Cindy, i sure didnt know about the holes in the Thomas manuscript. thanks! that changes things!

More later- i gotta get some work done!
Gina

Hey Cindy,

I'm glad for the house moving along so well! We'll be praying for you on the 19th. As for the publisher, my sister wrote a book a few years back and had the same problem. I don't remember it completely but she ended up making a deal where her book became an 'e-book' and could be printed as the demand increased. That way the publisher had less to loose if it didn't sell. I'm not really sure how it works but I can contact her if you'd like to know more. I like the idea of re-presenting the heritage that has been lost to the West! Its been a while that it has been done and is always needed. Good luck with it!

And yes, Gina's questions certainly bring 'life' to this board! She manages to ask the questions we all have thought but soon forget! In the short time she's been here she's given us lots to discuss. You've come up with some good stuff yourself though! Perhaps, as you work on your new book you might bring us some questions as well. However, the supposed CC site recently posted was actually Scotty's discovery. He's always coming up with some interesting 'alternative' things too! I see Gina did an invite for the Celts on Beliefnet to join us here. I'm hoping they accept and add to the 'craic' here. I'm glad to see the family here growing in numbers as well as depth!

Thanks again for all of you and your participation! May God continue to bless and enlighten us!

Slan
Marty

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Good Morning all,

I see you both have been busy while the rest of the world slept! I must say, you make me work hard!(hehehe) However, I think it may be helpful to try to get some terms explained before proceeding though. What Protestants (and Orthodox) refer to as the Apocrypha are called the Deuterocanonical books in the Catholic Bible. They are acceptable for teaching and doctrine. Gina, any Catholic Bible will have them if you care to read them but some of the ones in Scotty's list are part of other books. There are some Protestant Bibles that may include them in the back of their Bibles but it is not the 'usual' Bible that has them. They are well worth the read and contain nothing that would contradict what we hold in common. (well, except for the doctrine of Purgatory which comes from either first or second Macabees)

What Protestants hold as deuterocanonical books would be some of the epistles that circulated in the Early Church. My favorites are 1st & 2nd Clement. They are completely worth the read and express well the thinking of the Church Fathers. I'll give you a link I've had for a while that will show you just how much there is! But you may want to stay to the section labeled "Church Fathers". http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ If you would like to research the terms Apocrypha and Deuterocanonical better, you may wish to try this link.
http://religion-cults.com/Christianity/hol...Protestant%20Bibles: And finally, here's one I found on the Pseudoepigrapha
http://ocp.acadiau.ca/ As you can see, there is a lot out there to read, a lot that has been pushed to the back annals of time. Some of it is good but some just isn't worth the time it takes to read. Please be mindful of the 'Gnostic' works. They were a plague to the Early Church and are presently in vogue with Christians still today!

As for your question about the Kabbalah, I think I'll save that for another time. You have enough on your plate already with these. BTW, we do expect a 'report' back from you... right?! A simple synopsis would be sufficient! (hehehe)(jk) Oh, here's another thought! You mentioned about doing a study on the Apocrypha sometime in the future. Would you care to lead us? In Celtic Tradition, women were just as valued as leaders as the men! In Christian Board rooms, if you make a suggestion... you head up the committee!!! So, Gina, anytime you're ready... so are we!

May the Lord of all Light guide us this day into the Knowledge of His ways...

Slan
Marty

Getting the digest does put me a little behind the eight ball. Sorry!

Hey Cindy,

What's the good word with you? Did you sign yet? Are you in
already? How's your next book coming along?

Closings on both houses is the 19th. We are moving that weekend. Next book? I'm stalled. I have to find another publisher. *sigh*
The last week of Jan (up to St. Brigid's Day) I will be at the Christian booksellers convention in Indianapolis. There I'll pitch my work, with the help of my agent, to some editors. My St. Brendan book is nearly done, but Christian publishers aren't very open to unknown authors writing historical fiction. So, I've developed an idea for a contemporary that still tells the story of the legacy of faith handed down to us by the ancient Irish. My agent thinks this one has the best chance. I'm not sure what God has in mind. Can't figure it out, but that's okay. It's all a test of faith and obedience. If any of you want to follow what's happening in my writing life, please sign up for my monthly newsletter by going to http://www.brigidofireland.com.

Gina sure has lots of questions! That site she found smacks of the Da Vinci Code. I read it and saw the movie. Entertaining, but so ridiculous at the same time! Like Marty said, these theories kept resurfacing throughout history. There is no fault in questioning and researching this stuff so long as you weigh it against the truth known to us through Christ. But to do this right, you should go back to the original text. No easy task since these manuscripts are not in good shape. Most, like the Gospel of Thomas, have gaping holes in them and many people have filled in the missing words themselves. Also, if you look at the texts (the ones our church fathers deemed un acceptable for our Bible) you will see why. There was no conspiracy, as some like to think. What they contain is either unreliable (written many centuries after the person lived, as in the case of the book of Mary Magdeline) or do not aline with our faith.

And I can sympathsize with Gina about her friend. I have a friend, too, who joined a cult. I proposed an article on how Christians can deal with this, but so far haven't had any magazine editors bite on that one. Best wishes and prayers on your house revenovation, Gina. It can be very stressful, but rewarding since your house will truly be your own, the result of the love and sweat you and your husband put in together.

Blessings.
Cindy

i have always wanted to read the apocryphal books but i have literally never seen a bible with the added books - maybe we can do a study on them here, so that we can learn about them together. i'll have to find them first so i can read them.

where does the Book of Thomas and Mary and the other "new"ly found books fit in with all of this? to be honest, i only heard about them b/c Beliefnet did a short series of articles on them, but they werent very in depth, more like an appitizer to get you interested in learning more about them.

as for enoch, how much accreditation can you give it? how authentic is it? when reading it do i treat it like another history book or is it a fairy tale based on hebrew tradition? (like Lilith?)

i actually have another question (several actually, but lets start with this one), they may not be "celtic" per se, but i would like your input on it- it may give me a celtic perspective on the topic (again putting on the celtic eyeglasses to look at the topic) .How did Kabbalah evolve from traditional judaism? how does this mystic side of hebrew history and tradition fit in with what we know from the bible
i'm attaching a link (of course, it's to wikipedia, the most broad and least indepth source out there, but it's just to give a quick "once over" of the topic), look over it if you can.
more tomorrow. i gotta catch some sleep! more working on the house tomorrow and 9-5ing my day job!

Blessings!
Gina

The book of Enoch is not part of the general Apocrypha. The 15 books are:
1. The First Book of Esdras
2. The Second Book of Esdras
3. Tobit
4. Judith
5. The Rest of the Chapters of the Book of Esther
6. The Wisdom of Solomon
7. Ecclesiasticus or the Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach
8. Baruch
9. A Letter of Jeremiah
10. The Song of the Three
11. Daniel and Susanna
12. Daniel, Bel, and the Snake
13. The Prayer of Manasseh
14. The First Book of the Maccabees
15. The Second Book of the Maccabees
I recently learned that the Lutheran and the Episcopal Church have begun to recognize the Apocrypha. But to just what extent I am not clear on. The way I found out was that the book of Baruch was listed as an alternative reading to our Old Testament Scripture for the day. Now I don’t have too much of an issue with the readings of them, I just have to question the motive of the addition. It seems that the main reason for many of the changes within the church have been more about church politics more so than validation of the Holy Cannon.

I have always found the book of Enoch to be a very interesting read. Many people feel as if it is a antiquated Sci-Fi book and that intern has gotten the attention of a lot of the modern Sci-Fi buffs that are trying to blend Sci-Fi with Religion. I have read it several times and each time I have found wisdom in it. Well actually I don’t know if I would call it wisdom, but it does fill in some gaps that are left unanswered within the canonical books.

IHHN,
Scotty

"As for Sophia being Wisdom... well that's what it means in Greek!"

Ahhh, hence Sophocles would be the male version of the name? i'm not sure- most people forget that names didnt used to be like they are today where sara is a girls name and brad is a boy's name. babies would be given names that were part of the language - kinda like naming your child Hope- it's an actual word that is given as a name. and lots of those words have both male and female versions (kinda like how spanish uses "a" at the end of the word for feminine and "o" for male.) so maybe Sophia is the word and it is genderless in that form? does that make sense?

what are your feelings on reading apocryphal books? obviously reading them isnt proscribed, but books such as Enoch are refered to in the Bible arent they?

Edited by author 01-09-2007 12:12 PM
Sorry, it seems like the email handler is having difficulties again here at QT! I'll let the owner know but in the meantime, if you want to respond to a post you can always come on site. Just click on the orange "Post a new message" box and enter text or C&P whatever you want. Again, sorry for any inconvenience!

Marty

Here's my original post
------------------------------------------------

Hey Gina,

Yeah, I know what you mean... I think we've all have someone we know who got mislead by these kinds of groups. The 12 Tribes thing keeps coming up in history as a result of some poor scholarship. For some reason, people today think it's 'more spiritual' to be part of a select little group that they can control or conform to than to live the life as God intended us to live. Its a sad state of the church today but... there's no getting away from our own humanity and the need to feel 'special'.

I remember a few years ago I met a fellow who introduced himself as a deacon in the Celtic Church. Within a month he was a priest and two months after that he was a Bishop! I did some research on his church and found out is was just himself and a young follower holding services in his mother's basement.

Years ago when I was teaching in our evening Bible classes, I was doing some 'End Time' studies. There was one verse in both Matt. 24:22 and Mark 13:20 that stated that the days will be 'cut short' for the sake of the elect. I just couldn't figure out how those who had the Word within them could be led astray!? Yet today we are seeing this come to pass. Its like Christianity isn't good enough, there needs to be something more to make us special. Sometimes I wonder if people get saved, here all of the 'positive profession' and then are disappointed when they realize its not about them and their wills! So, they look elsewhere to be more 'spiritual'.

The thing I like about CC is that it draws you closer to God and your own daily death than leading you to the heights of power. Submission to Christ's will is the only way we can have a sense of fulfillment. But, as you know, many just see that as being foolish!

I am sorry for your friends though. I'll add them to my list, especially Allyson since I'm sure she's feeling a little lonely! May God illumine the hearts of the rest of her family! As for Sophia being Wisdom... well that's what it means in Greek! So it has always meant that but the feminine aspect keeps reoccurring throughout history. Today its quite popular with those who want it to mean that God is either fully feminine or partly so! That justifies their desire to feel 'special' and have an 'in' with the true knowledge (gnosis). But I don't want to start that controversy again!

The Canon of Scriptures is historical though and you can get lots of research on how it all happened. No secrets there. Actually, after doing some research on it myself, it reminded me of the 'church business meetings' that I used to attend. Everybody had an opinion and there were times they despaired of ever coming to an agreement. Arguments abounded and it took the Early Church a really long time to finally settle on those they could all agree on and those that were still good for teaching but not quite 'canon'. It was a real soul searching time for the Early Church and I appreciate all that my brothers went through to give us the texts we call Scriptures today! But, I'm no scholar... so I'll let someone else take that before the group here.

Thanks again for your help on Beliefnet.

Slan
Marty

this is why i like to bring these things i find to you guys!

actually it sounds like a "celtic" version of 12 Tribes. 12 Tribes is a cult that a woman, who i had been very close to, joined. her husband had been dead set against it, but she pushed and pushed and finally he gave in and they moved (with their two teenage kids-) to middle of nowhere Missouri and joined the 12 Tribes Commune. it's so scarey b/c she had been such a Biblical Christian- she could quote you scripture in a heartbeat and seemed to have such a strong understanding of it. but she got taken in by their interpretation of Scripture (and her desire to protect her children from a sinful world- she was a really BAD girl growing up- according to her- and feared that her kids would go through the same dangerous rebelion stages she did)

in a way, it was her falling into this group that caused me to really look deeply at my faith. her daughter ran away from the commune (the son has too submissive a personality to do something like that- so i worry he's been brainwashed) and came back here- there was some custoady battles and now the daughter's dance teacher (i cant remember her name- the teacher i mean) is her legal gaurdian. that was the compromise- Jen(my friend) didnt want her daughter living with the grandparents (either set) and so they both agreed this teacher was an acceptable middle ground. beneficial too, since Allyson (the daughter) is such an exceptional ballet dancer.

it breaks my heart b/c i miss them and i'm really worried about them. this 12 Tribes group has numerous abuse allegations against them and are really controlling.

so, where does Grail Church get the idea of Sophia? i have never in my life heard that! kinda crazy sounding. and they believe that Jesus was married as well? what Hebrew prophecies would that fulfill? i havent heard of marriage prophecies. well, glad i asked!

i have heard that about the new testament (the being incomplete) before. i dont know what to think about that, to be honest (this has nothing to do with Grail Church- this is something i have been thinking about for years- steve is REALLY curious about how they choose what went in and what didnt.) how did they decide what would be in the NT? what is the deal with the Apocrypha? what about all the other books (testament of Mary and Judas and whatnot)

Hey Scotty,

Nice find! I've never seen this one before. This is a great example of what the Celtic Christians are NOT about! It seems to be a mix of pseudo-christian, wiccan anti-anythingism. I wonder if there are people who really are part of this? It would be interesting to see just how many 'followers' they have. But then again, I might be upset to find that they had any!

There is a good adage in the saying "The Truth is Free!". Maybe that's why they have so many money references? Foolishness always has a price!
Hey... BTW... aren't you supposed to be working now? (hehehe) Surfing at work again, huh!(hehehe) Well, thanks for the link, its an interesting and sad read...

Slan
Marty

Edited by author 01-08-2007 01:51 PM
IMHO, the Grail Church is one to stay away from. Here are some articles from their teaches as stated on http://grailchurch.org/doctrine.htm
2. That the Feminine Principle in Godkind is manifested in the Person of the Holy Spirit, who is also known as Sophia in the Septuagint, the Bible of the Early Church, [2]
3. That the Organizing Principle of the Kingdom of God on Earth is the Grail Family, which is patterned after the Family of Heaven, [3]
4. That the canonical New Testament does not contain all of the teachings of Jesus, only those essential to personal salvation (John 20:30-31), [4]
8. That Jesus Christ was phallic in marriage and had to be married, according to the Hebrew prophets, to be the true Messiah

…….However, we do not believe that Anglicanism, Protestantism, Catholicism or Orthodoxy are adequate expressions of the Christian faith. The suppressed teachings of the Jamesian Church are essential to recapturing the true religion of Jesus Christ.

Here are a few other samples of their teachings. This group IMO would be a strong cult group that can be set up by anyone that sets up what they call a “household.” If ever there was a CC group, this would be one of them. Money and control seems to be their big push throughout their teachings.

HOW YOU CAN BE A PART OF THE GRAIL CHURCH
 Second, sign-up to be on our mailing list, pray for us, buy our books, and send contributions. These are very practical ways of demonstrating your love to Christ and His ministers. Explore this website to learn more. Go to our Booklist page. We have our vespers on Saturday nights dedicated for prayer for the people. Soon we will have an Internet radio program aired at that time. Sign-up by sending an email to clerk@grailchurch.org and write "list member" in the subject line.
CATECHUMENS
The Third Level is the practicum and requires a Residency. It is designed to further the formation of family abbeys. The Catechumen will be asked to participate in a currently established abbey, with the goal of either becoming a part of an existing abbey or participating to form a new one.
CHURCH POLICY
- updated February, 2006

§6 - Marital Issues: Divorce, Polygamy, Hierogamy, Eunuchs, etc.
Marriage is a covenant relationship between two or more persons to fulfill the prime directive of the human species: "to be fruitful and multiply" and thus fulfill the Dominion Covenant (Genesis 1:26-30; Psalm 8).

Hey Gina,

"pray that we dont have too many unexpected surprises while we work on our house!" Sorry dear! You'll just have to get used to the idea of 'unexpected surprises when you do renovations! Think of it as a dance step, one step for ... two steps back... As for the flooring, I'd go with the laminate. I helped my son-in-law with his wood floor and my son with my new laminate, hands down the laminate was easier and cheaper! Also, it stands up to more abuse. The wood floors look great but really need maintenance!
"and that by working together on it, we'll learn how to deal with one another better." I'm praying for this one! It gives him a chance to see just how much you're capable of... even for a girl! Then its easier for him to see you as a friend instead of a 'wife'. I'm praying you can become 'buddies' again. May God grant you the energy and wisdom to work along side of your husband!

Thanks for the update!

Slan

Edited by author 01-08-2007 11:27 AM
Hey Marty!
No problem!

we have signed and have already started working on the house. last night we ripped up the old carpet and some of the old trim. (we gotta shop-vac the floor underneath- we're putting in either hardwood or wood-laminate and we need to have a good clean base floor) we also have to go buy wall mudd so we can start fixing the uneven-ness of the walls (our other option is to re-drywall the walls- and i dont want it to come to that!) and we have to gut the dinning room b/c of the bad shape of the walls (and possibly ceiling) and then there is some walls (like the wall that has been added in the master bedroom to create a closet in the dinning room- dont ask) we are demolishing.new trim, and doors and vent covers. *sigh* lots of work, but we plan to get it all done and be moved in under 2 months.

we knew it was going to be a fixer, in fact we purposely bought the worst house in a great neighborhood so that the value would be easy to raise with some esthetic work. and we are doing most of the work ourselves so we hope to save money there.

i'm also hoping that the amount of time and work both steve and i are going to be putting into this rehab is going to leave us to tired and busy to argue. and then once we're actually in it'll be like a new start.

i could still use the prayer- pray that we dont have too many unexpected surprises while we work on our house! and that by working together on it, we'll learn how to deal with one another better.


also, i wanted to add that i found this site

http://www.grailchurch.org/celtic.htm

check it out and let me know your thoughts. i might write to the address on the bottom of the site and see what kind of info they'll send me. (sorry if this is a site that you already knew about.- our archives will take me a while to really go thru and this is one of the sites that came up in my most recent search)

Blessings!
Gina

Hey Gina,

Thanks! I appreciate the effort on my behalf. I know the post is a few months old but the chance of 'non-virtual' fellowship is worth the try! I finally managed to get into the 'Registration' area of Beliefnet but the process failed mid-way. I sent them an email to inform them of it. Yesterday, when I saw the java script on the bottom taskbar, I made sure all the pop-ups were enabled for this board. Its strange, it only seems selective with popups, not links! That's why I figured it was a programming glitch...

Thanks again for your efforts. How's the house coming along? When do you go to signing and move in? I want to make sure you're 'prayed up' for it! So much of your future depends on you and Steve having your own space right now.

Hey Cindy,

What's the good word with you? Did you sign yet? Are you in already? How's your next book coming along?

Has anyone gone 'onsite' to check out their greeting? I'm wondering how accurate they are. Let me know what you think. Okay, have a great day all...

Slan

i found the post you were refering to marty, did you notice that it was from march of last year? i'll still send her a message letting her know that we're here, i'll post it on the thread there or start a new one with our web address here.

later!

Marty it took me a couple times (this was three years ago- i had hoped that they had this problem fixed by now). i didnt receive the Daily's until almost a week after i signed up for them!!
as far as the pop up window (this may be a stupid question) did you make sure you turned off pop up blocker when you went on that site? i have the worst trouble with my blocker. try that and let me know.
i'll see if i can find 'lilla08', but i will have to go to a board that she is on to find her, b/c you cant just look up someone by their name on B_net.

the Celtic Christianity board there gets maybe one message a month. less lately, so dont be surprised if we do not hear back from her for QUITE a while~! it's been at least two months since i've been in that board.

but i'll definitely try for ya!

Blessings
Gina

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

Hey Scotty, thanks for the IM about Beliefnet. I've already tried signing in... According to the Java script a pop-up window is supposed to bring me there but its not happening! I click and it just stares at me...
I took out a subscription to one of their daily devotionals but that didn't get me in either! So... I'll have to try something else! Thanks again for the advice buddy. ttyl

Slan
Marty

Greetings all,

Hey Gina, could I ask you to do me a favor? I was just on Beliefnet and I saw that they have a CC section! (thanks for letting us know!) While I was there, I noticed someone asked if there was any CC's on Long Island, NY. I tried leaving a message for them but for some reason I cannot sign in there! Either the link is down or I'm not knowledgeable enough to find the place to 'sign in'! Would you mind contacting 'lilla08' for me? I saw her post in the topic 'Celtic Churches'. Its the sixth post in that section. You can direct her here or send her my yahoo email address. I'd love to have someone to fellowship with here on LI.... Thanks.

Slan
Marty

P.S. - does anyone out there know how I can get music for the site? Please contact me at mfjfarrell@yahoo.com

Slan

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

Hey Gina,

It sounds like the Lord has heard all our prayers! I'm really glad to hear that things are coming along to your satisfaction. I know there is more to come in any marriage but now it seems that you both have a good handle on it! Praise God! We'll keep you both in our prayers in the days ahead, a little extra never hurts!

Members, lurkers and tourists,

In the lull since New Year's I've taken to exploring some options for the site. If you follow the link in this post (up above) you'll see a greeting specific to your location. I know that there are some places still not recognizable to the program but I'd appreciate knowing what places still need work. Don't hesitate to let me know whether you like it or not, or whether its accurate or not. Remember, its set to the location of your Internet Provider, not your residence. I live in Central Islip but I am greeted from Ronkonkoma! But, its close enough to make me feel welcomed. Please give it a try if you have the time, I'd appreciate the feedback...
Thanks again for making this such a welcoming site...

Slan
Marty

tonight steve and i talked about what he said the other night, and he told me he had just said that b/c he was upset. now, that means the problem has changed from him not wanting to have kids (he admitted that he does- Thank GOD!) to him saying mean things just b/c he is mad. but he has long acknowelged the fact that he has anger problems and plans to attend anger management classes at the church that we have started attending. i pray that the help he will receive there and the friends he will make in the class (along with GOD's help) will help him overcome his problem.

and as for his job. well, i will have to learn to trust GOD to handle our financial affairs. i will just have to be that much better a steward of what He does give me. steve doesnt want me to be the bread-winner, he does make the majority of our money, but i think he fears the day that i wont be working and we fall on hard times, with only one paycheck that is a frightening thought, and he doesnt have enough confidence yet. i know he could take care of both of us, but he just has to believe in himself.

keep praying for us, i can feel GOD working in my life. i see His handiwork in recent occurances in my life. somtimes GOD works in small changes that make big changes later. He doesnt always fix it all at once.

Blessings
Gina

i have no desire for children for at least 5 years. so in that my husband and i agree. but he just took it a step further and said that he would rather i work for the rest of my life, than stay at home with kids. when i said "you cant have both kids and a working wife with me" he said he would do without kids.

scotty you said ". I[t] is as if you entered into it saying that if this does not work, we can always divorce." not at all. i do not believe in divorce. what i meant was i knew it was going to be hard. i knew that if we waited we might have a better marriage. but i was stubborn and i didnt want to hurt his feelings by saying i wanted to wait. i have always been able to step up and take the blame for that, i knew better but i didnt follow that instinct. i want to be married to him, but an older him. which is why i wish we would have waited until we were like 25.

and scotty, i know what you mean about statistically you shouldnt be married after a courtship like yours (Praise GOD you still are though) my friend Nathan recently married a girl he had only been dating for 2 weeks. they were divorced after only 6 weeks. he is a marine and was leaving town for california and had just returned from japan. i think he was lonely.

Fr. Jim,
thank you so much for your generous offer. i want you to know i very much value your insights and wisdom. but as i have mentioned to others who before offered to mail me books (also a very generous offer) i never (no matter how much i really do trust you all) give out personal information to anyone i meet online nor do i contact someone i meet online. it isnt a matter of trust, i made a promise to my mother and a high school internet 101 teacher (who extracted the promise from everyone in the class) that i would never do that. i completely understand why they said that and asked it of me. i would hope that my daughter (or son) would one day follow the same advice.

i wouldnt mind speaking with you more indepths online via email
( Missingneon@myway.com ) but i cannot call. i'm sorry.

thank you also cindy for your prayers. i thank GOD for you guys on here and the other CC forums. the internet can be such a pit of sin and yet GOD used it to bless me in this way.

i had to remind my mom last night while i was out visiting her that steve hasnt had a chance to act like a grown-up yet. she started in on how she was disappointed in how poorly he is using his education. but when i told her my hopes about him seeing the need to up the ante once we are on our own, she nodded and said "you're right, i keep forgetting that." she really loves steve. but i think she is really worried about me.

i'm scared but after praying for a while, GOD has sent me some peace. i feel so full of His Love that i cant worry. now i just worry about living for Him right now.

Thanks and Blessings.
Gina

Gina,
I have a friend at my church in a very similar situation. I certainly do not have any answers, but I do agree that buying a house and having children are two of the most stressful events in one's life. I can say that because I've been married 24 years, have three kids, and this will our 5th house. But I do not have the experience that you describe with your husband. I've known many women, however, who continued to pray for their husbands for many years. It's hard, but it's a committment God will honor. My friend is now pregnant. They are very happy about it, but I know it will stress their relationship a great deal. She is the breadwinner. He is in a low paying job, despite being educated for something different.

My advice: wait to have children.
Saying a prayer for you right now.........

CHRIST IS BORN!
  GLORIFY HIM!
   
  I'll be proclaiming that until Wednesday the 17th, actually, which is the 12th day of the Old Calendar Feast of the Nativity! And our tree and lights will still be up! Praise the Lord!
  Dear in Christ, Gina--
   
  This is a great forum, with terrific people on it, but there's only so far you can go in public. One of the advantages of having a priest around is that you can go into a litle more depth, and maybe get involved in some concrete work to solve the problem.
  Give me a ring, if you'd like, at (219) 324-8364.
   
  With you in Christ,
   
  Fr. Jim <><
   
   

 __________________________________________________
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Gina,

I recall some time ago someone had said to me that if you someone asks if they should get married the answer would have to be no. It is not something that anyone else an answer for you. You just know. Entering into a marriage is not something that should be done in lust, love, or obligation. All of these things can and will change over time. I can not tell you why or what makes two people get married outside the simple fact that they know without question that they are meant to be together and that God has called them together as one. My wife and I met while I was one leave from the Marines. We weekend dated for three months, and then I went away to North Carolina. When I left, we were already engaged and I already had orders to ship out to Japan in October of the year. Crazy! No question about it. Should it have lasted 17 years? No, statistics says that we should not have lasted six months. And why has it? Because even though I was not a church going Christian at the time, I knew that this is what God had planned for me. SO we just knew. In fact I would say that we really did not have to think much about it and it never seemed crazy to us. We just knew.

I fear that by your statement “I have always known that marrying Steve when I did (so young) might not have been the best path for me, but it isn’t like this is the wrong path” may well have set you on the wrong path to begin with. I is as if you entered into it saying that if this does not work, we can always divorce. No marriage can or will last going into it with this attitude. Because of the commitment that is required of marriage one must enter into it saying,” I would rather die before leaving this person.” In order to say this you better knew this person well enough to make that sort of statement.

As far as the work and child issue, it sounds as if you did have this discussing before and that now he is crawfishing on it. What does he say when confronted with this past statement? If he either denies it or somehow changes his point of view, than like Marty says there is a much deeper concern here than your relationship. I agree that staying with his parents may well have gotten you two off on a wrong foot and as you said allowed him to remain mama’s boy and yet have a live in girl friend. You two have never had a chance to be a couple. Buying a home is stressful. We have bought 4 so far. By far this is the greatest stress a marriage can go through. That and children. Both require total commitment and money. Both of which most people do not have much of.

You are in my prayer and I would suggest that you go to work and be the best insurance person you can be. Focus on your career and let know one slow you down. You are still young and the family will come in time. Having children in your late 20s is not uncommon. You go and make a career for yourself and be the best wife you can be. You can’t change Steve. No matter what he decides, you can not change that. I understand you feeling betrayed and rightfully so. But you do your part and let God do His. Anything else is out of your control.

Blessing to you my sister,

Scotty

i still have hopes that once we are actually in the new house, he will feel the need for him to step up. i feel like living with his parents has been really bad (not just for me and our marriage) but for him as a man. like he fell back into being a little boy. he has not had any need to grow up, so he didnt.

to be honest, i have always known that marrying steve when i did (so young) might not have been the best path for me, but it isnt like this is the wrong path, just not as good. But i know the Lord can make this path a blessing as well. i have faith.

Mark 9:23&24 -- 23" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."
 24Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

i do believe, Lord help me overcome my unbelief.

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Gina,

I'll definitely be praying for you in the days ahead. Your situation is not too uncommon, I have a niece who has been the 'bread-winner' for over a decade with her husband (stay-at-home dad). It is not a good situation when plans are made, you move forward in good faith and then you are betrayed. You have a right to expect your husband to take care of you so that you may tend to the family! It was what he promised when you married! It is the Scriptural way to establish your future family as well...

It seems, though, that he has some deeper problems. Usually men desire to take the lead and 'be the man' of the home. Your husband seems content to let you do it for him while he takes the rewards. There is something deeply wrong with that in him! Perhaps it may be time for some counseling. It seems the reason for your marrying is no longer valid without some outside help.

Please keep yourself bathed in prayer and peace, God will lead. This may also be a way for Him to get through to Steve about things in his life that he needs to address so don't relent! It may all seem at times that nothing good can come of this, but God always has a plan for us. Know also that we here will be praying for you until you tell us not to! Look at this more as a journey rather than an attack...

Slan minion
Marty

hey everyone. it's been quiet for a while.

a couple of things. for one- please pray for me. my marriage... isnt going well. there has been a lot of tension for a while. and now with the new house, there is even more stress. i admitt a good deal of it comes from my being worried about paying bills, and being upset about his job. he had promised in the past to go looking for a new one. the one he is at pays 4 dollars an hour less than his old job. has no benefits (his old one he had the possibility for it.) and no job advancement possibilities.

the fact is, he forced me to get a new job that made more money just so that he would marry me... and has hounded me about getting my raise ever since i started this one. so it hurts that he (who has an expensive education - unlike me- and the job training to easily find new employment) refuses to try. he'll make half attempts if i push hard enough, but he doesnt really try.

it isnt that he loves his job, it's just that he doesnt want to try anywhere else. and it's frustrating. before he married me he told me i would be able to stay at home with our future kids (i have no problem with working now, but i want to stay at home when i have a baby) and i was told - no- promised - that he would constantly look for a job that had benefits (ie health and dental ) until he found one. and now he gets so angry that i expect him to follow thru.

 he told me yesterday that he was glad i have a retirement plan at my job. when i asked what that mattered since i was going to stay at home with our kids- he said "no you arent". i said i wasnt having kids until we were financially stable enough to have only one working parent (that doesnt mean i cant work from home on the computer) then he said- "we're not having kids then"

i feel betrayed. bait and switch. i know i'm not faultless here, i am pushy, i know that being pushed really bothers him. but i dont know what else to do. i want kids. i want stability. now it might never happen. i just dont know what to do. we hardly ever talk without fighting. i'm just so sad.

thanks everyone for the concern! i am feeling alot better- just still battling the evil phlegm-monster! :) steve got over it alot faster than i did, but i get sick worse and longer than lots of people. (it's something that i have gotten used to- no big)

i'll check out the mychurch thing soon, but i'm being kicked off the net here in like 2 minutes so that the family can hook up th enet to the xbox 360. oh well! more later!

Blessings for the new year!!!
 talk to you all in '07!
Gina

MyChurch is a lot like MySpace.

As the site says: It is“MySpace for Christians”, this is MyChurch for everyone.

I register Celtic Christian church. I will see in 48 hours if they let it go through. It is a place where brick and mortar churches can register. I am curious to see if they will allow a church without walls.

Hey Cindy,

Thank God for spelchekers! I alwaz uus myn!

As for changing you email preferences, just go to the website and click on the 'Subscribe' button again. It will bring you to a page with three choices and your email address to send it to.(don't choose "Stop sending me email for this topic", we love having you here) Then click on the 'OK' at the bottom... that's it!

Slan

Hi everybody! I missed you guys! I have been at home mostly, but busy packing and doing some work. It's volunteer writing. Sad to say, it's sometimes hard for me to get motivated.

At any rate, we don't move for another 3 weeks. It's been good to have time to start getting ready, though. Thanks for asking, Scotty.

And congrats, Gina, on your new place.

The My Church site is interesting. Of course, there's no replacing real live contact with God's people, but people shop for everything on the Internet now: cars, houses, you name it. So they'll probably be looking for a church online too. Churches should realize that and be prepared. I looked at the site just briefly. One I found could use a writer to help make their message more understandable to seekers. Look at this:

<<Our focus is on Jesus Christ, glorifying Him in our bodies, presenting ourselves as living sacrifices, holy, and acceptable. This means putting to death our members which are in the earth and the end of sinful behaviors. >>

Yikes! Putting to death their members????

Anyway, I think it's a good concept overall. And about anam caras: some churches today call this accountability partners. I have included this in a book I'm writing about St. Brendan (how could I not?) and I think it's a fascinating concept that the Celtic monks developed and that we can learn from it. But right now my "soul friend" is my husband. I don't expect that to change. We have been married over 24 years and really are best of friends. We talk about our spiritual concerns along with everything else. I think it's harder for men to find an anam cara than for women. Men just don't open up as easily (generally speaking.) Perhaps being in the military gives some men that opportunity. Women usually wear their hearts on their sleeves and seek out close friends. Of course, this is not the whole story. To have an anam cara means to share spiritual matters, not just having someone to go to the mall with.

Hey, Scotty. Not to pick on you, but I'm wondering about those "fiends" you said you had. Reminds me of my cousin's email when he told me about his "bother in the Lord." Typos can be so funny! (I'm proofreading my message now because I'm sure you're looking for mine!)

One more thing: While I love these messages, I'm having trouble keeping up. I also belong to several writers' groups and baseball groups. Is there a way to sign up to get daily digests instead of individual emails?

Thanks! Happy New Year everyone!
Cindy

Hey Scotty,

"You can just meet a person and tell if they had ever served in the military." - Gotcha buddy! I know just what you mean. And if you stop and think about it, the same can be said of people who truly live for Christ! How many times have we met a stranger and felt an affinity with them instantly by the way they speak or act? You can always 'tell' your own!

In Anam Cara, O'Donohue asserts throughout his book that the body is in the soul. We so often think of it as this quiet little floating cloud somewhere within us. It made me stop and think when I read it. It makes sense! Nothing in scriptures would be opposed to the concept and it does help explain why we have an instant affinity with certain people. As he would put it, "Our souls recognize its own clay, it is as if we have returned to the source of our own formation and found our 'wholeness'. We can see ourselves in another's soul!" Of course, I'm paraphrasing it... but that's the essence of it. It is the soul that protects the body! It nurtures us with its own light and preserves our identity through all the trials of this world. When I ask God to arise within me each day, I ask Him to fill me within and without! This whole 'trinity' existence of ours is so fascinating! (body, soul, spirit)

Well, maybe that's another topic! Point is... I know what you mean about recognizing your own!

Hey, thanks for the link to 'My Church', what did you want to do with it? Is there something we could use there that we don't have here? Have you checked it out at all?

Okay, may you all have a great New Year's.. see you next year!

Slán

Have ya all seen this yet?

http://www.mychurch.org

Maybe this will open doors that MySpace can not

Marty,

I never thought about it that way, but you are so right on about the battle buddy. We always said there are no atheists in a fighting hole. I worked with a young guy that was also in the Marines and he and I had a bond like no other. We did not spend much time with each other outside of work, but there was just an unspoken law that both of us understood. I can see how the anama cara would go from war time to peace time. A person can not go though what they do in war and just turn it off and go back to a civilian way of life. Even after almost 16 years, I still feel a void in my soul, a void that has been created by removing me from something.

Now don’t get me wrong, Jesus has and is the biggest thing in my life now, but the human contact which is so vital is no longer there. Sure I have my family and a few fiends, but they do not understand my longing for belonging. (hey I like that) I find my comfort in people who understand the military code. I am sure you know what I mean. You can just meet a person and tell if they had ever served in the military. I guess that is what my lore is to the Templars, but all the modern groups are a neo as the pagan movements.

And yes I too can see it here. Not only here, but our internet CC community as a whole. You and I have been together since March 2004. (according to your HNC membership)That can’t be right? It seems like a life time. And this is just what we are talking about, a timeless relationship that has no time or space. I often fear that the day anyone of my cyber friends are hurting or should happen to die and none of us would know. I praised God the time you were in the hospital and your son logged on to let us know how you were doing. The internet was the only thing that I had to contact everyone after Katrina. I can always recall the time Mike said, he wished we could be neighbors and we could enjoy a cup of coffee on the back porch. I guess for most of us this will have to wait until we get to the Father’s house.

Blessings to all. Gina I pray you are feeling better and Praise be to God for the new house. Cindy, are you moving yet? So much going on with in our anama cara circle.

IHHN,
Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings all,

I hope all of you are doing well and have a pleasant New Years Evening planned for yourself. May God guide us this coming year...

Gina - I'm sorry to hear about the cold with you and your husband. 'Tis the season! I'm sure you know that you will be prayed for by us all. Also, congratulations on the house closing! I know it means so much for young couples to have their own 'space'! I'm excited for you both!!! There is an old adage that I have found to be true, "new house... new baby"! I've seen it mostly with my own kids and their growing families. Perhaps it comes from the tradition of 'christening' every room! Whatever the cause... May God richly bless you and your family there!

The other evening I had a chance to go over the statistics of the site here at CCS. Last month we had 83 posts which was very good. This month, as of this posting, we will have 213 posts! I'm glad to see the board is of use to you all. Our best month ever was November of 2005 with 310 posts. Its not so much the numbers that interest me but the activity and participation of those present. Thanks all for making it another successful year in sharing our faith with each other...

Slan
Marty

HAHA~!

Marty i had never heard that one about Baptists before, but you know what? it fits! :) (not all of em to be sure, but alot of the ones i've met!)

more later!, i have been really sick so i went and stayed with my parents (my husband is also sick and we dont do "sick" very well together. we're both big babies) so i have literally only seen him once for 15 minutes in 5 days. so we need to spend some quality time together!

we close on our house in 4 days~!

Hey Gina,

Thanks, that was an interesting read. The 'pagan' (country folk) concept of anam chara was more a necessity for warriors, it didn't have any of the religious connotation that we put on it. The warriors would simply have a 'buddy' to 'watch his back' while he did the same. As time went on, they became accustomed to each others movements and the relationship grew. When they went back to their villages, they went back to their own lives. It was just a necessity of war. It was similar to police having a 'partner', someone they always work with, or a pilot having a 'wingman'. These kinds of relationships always lead to a certain familiarity and closeness.
Actually, I see a similar trend starting here. We are all pretty opened and concerned with each other! It is not the same as the 'adversarial' relationships that exist on some other CC boards. I'm glad for that, it is real Christian concern that I see growing here. And, as is the usual case with Celts, the counsel is genderless! We each are learning much from each other.(even the newbies present new perspectives in their questions!)
Oh, BTW, is it true that Baptists believe that when a non-Baptist is buried that a chute opens beneath the coffin and they are ushered right into hell? (sorry... just kidding... I heard that one a few decades ago!)

Melina - good to see you posting! I'm glad we are of use to your growth. Please feel free to ask or comment on any aspect of CC that comes to mind. Growth always happens fastest when the information is tailored to your needs!

Slan

found this thought you might think it's interesting!
-------
Dear to me
   
Avalon Nuttair, Druid Extraordinaire

 “Fast-friends, forest companions,
We made one bed and slept one sleep”

So begins a poem sung by Cuchulainn to his foster-brother and dearest friend Ferdia of Connacht. This poem was first recorded on paper back in the days when the anam-chara was a normal social institution in the Gaelic world. The word, which has been revived in recent times by writers of popular books, translates as soul-friend. The origins of the institution are unknown, but almost certainly predate Christianity. What we do know of it stems from Church-sponsored literature, and so it is uncertain if in earlier times the relationship between soul-friends was in any important regards different.

This anam-chara acted as the guardian and mentor, their duties included taking Confession, witnessing oaths, and reading eulogies at the funeral. As well as spiritual protector, they were also a close ~ perhaps the closest ~ friend to the one they guarded. As the centuries rolled past the Church changed some of this and started insisting that only men could act as anam-chara, then that only an ordained priest could take confession etc. Eventually the whole position was entirely eroded.

How might the pagan practice have differed from the Christian? Well, there is nothing to suggest that the early Irish ever practised any form of Confession or the giving of Absolution. However, most people benefit from having a trusted friend in whom to confide their most private thoughts or painful secrets. So the pagan anam-chara may well have acted as some kind of counsellor, and kept whatever secrets their friend told them. The early Christian practice of having anam-chara of both sexes was probably borrowed directly from older pagan approaches.

The concept of a sacred friendship was by no means confined to the Irish. Other cultures also had equivalent ideas. The Chinese had a friendship ceremony, which was described in the 17th Century by Li Yu. He talks of how the pair would sacrifice a duck, a rooster and a carp, smear each others mouths with the commingled blood, and swear oaths of loyalty. Astrology probably played a part, as they also exchanged birth times.

The Balonda tribe of Africa make various cuts on their bodies, and then bleed into a mug of beer. The witnesses to the ritual then chant and cheer as the friends consume each others blood-beer.
    In modern Britain the role of friendship has been much denigrated. Friends are often just part of a “crowd scene”, milling pointlessly in the background whilst the exclusive emotional focus is on the spouse. We tend to expect our husbands or wives to be friends, lovers, parents, housekeepers, wage-earners, confidantes and every other thing going. Huge amounts of emotional pressure are piled by one person on to the other. Small wonder then that one in three marriages fail, with people often feeling suffocated by their partners. Older societies did not tend to expect such great shakes of marriage, with emotional needs being spread amongst a wider circle of friends and relatives.

Of course many may not feel the need for a mentor, so such a thing could hardly be compulsory for those in a Celtic tradition. Yet the Abbess Brigit is quoted as saying “a person without an anam-chara is like a body without a head.“ To be truly friendless is hardly an achievement to crow about.

A soul-friend should be chosen wisely. It might take years to find anyone worth asking to serve in this capacity. Nonetheless, it is wise to think about having someone to take charge of your funeral arrangements (especially if your legal next-of-kin wouldn’t understand about pagan funeral rites.) This can be done by appointing someone as executor of your funeral, when writing a will. They need not be a soul-friend in any other sense.

Accepting the role of anam-chara is quite a responsibility, it means taking on board the good care and nurture of another person’s soul. It involves being capable of cherishing another person more highly than oneself. A rare capacity in this all-too selfish world.

These days, with phones and email, it is not necessary to live near someone to look after them ~ though in previous centuries it would have been. It is unlikely that anyone would have requested an anam-chara from outside their tribal boundaries.

The ritual to formalise an anam-chara relationship has been lost, but a little imagination could create an acceptable ceremony to seal the oath between two people. The Tain speaks of a “blood-pact of friendship”, but in these days of hepatitis and HIV it might not be too wise to take this literally.
 ---

just thought it was a interesting read

to be honest i had never even heard of the orthodox church or how it differed from the roman catholic until two years ago! and i was raised in church!

in alot of baptist churches they tell their children that either you are baptist, or you are wrong. they gloss over denominations, they tell you that catholics, and methodists, and penticostals exist, but that they are wrong,- so dont bother looking into them (which only served to make me more curious!)

i was onced asked why i didnt bring my friends to church, i told the lady that (and i was like 8 when this happened) all my friends either went to other churches or were other religions (i meant denominations - but i had been taught that they WERE other religions) and she said "well, you should anyway, b/c we EVEN accept catholics!" hahahahahaha! like catholics were the worst things ever. they'll take on pagans of all kinds without blinking an eye, but the BIG one is taking in catholics!!!! hahaha! oh that makes me laugh everytime i think about it. but in a sad way, really.

that same lady gave her testimony in church shortly after that, and she talked about how she had been raised in a catholic church and THEN became saved when she became a Baptist!

*sigh-*

Clarifications are a good thing! For those of us even newbier (that's a word, of course)than others, clarification can mean the difference in glossing over something and really digesting it's meaning. I don't contribute much, but I'm learning. I appreciate this so much, because as a protestant, I've heard so little about Orthodox beliefs and practices.

Fr Jim,
 Thanks so much! really i had no idea how the whole system of confession works (other than what you see on tv- which isnt always a reliable source!)

actually i have been meaning to ask you, since you were here on CCS long before me, i missed your introduction. so i have been assuming from your post-name that you are a priest- is that right? and an orthodox one? i just want to be sure b/c some people on Beliefnet used the "Fr" in front of their screenname but when i finally asked them if they were in fact a priest they gave me a lecture about the priesthood of every believer. so they really werent.

Marty
"For the sake of the 'newbies' here, though, I need to point out that the assertion "The Celtic Churches were Orthodox," needs to be clarified."

well this newbie is now informed! hehe, i had a half understanding of that, but really it helps to have things like that clarified! thanks for looking out for the newbies!

Blessings!
Gina

Sure, Marty, send it. I'm a little touchy about these things, being an author. I have battled with Thomson-Gale over an article of mine that they were selling on the Internet without my permission or without paying me. The original publisher pleaded ignorance and offered to pay me reprint rights, but haven't seen anything yet. Of course, this is a little different, but I'm always careful.

Cindy

Hey Cindy,

The image was gathered somewhere from the internet! (hehehe) Over the years we tend to gather things from each other to the point that it becomes public domain!(probably!)

Once I took a gray, black and white Celtic Cross, colorized it green, brown and yellow. Then I added a dove in the lower right quadrant of the image and used it for a site on Yahoo! Groups that I tried to establish. Never got any activity in the group so I deleted it. About a year later, someone joined Celtic Faith Study there and had link to his own Celtic site. I followed the link... and there was MY Celtic Cross!!!(hehehe) So, what goes around comes around!

I have no idea where it came from but please feel free to us it! If you'd like the others as well I'll send them to your email address if you give me permission. Thanks for the interest...

Slan

Marty,
Where did the image come from? Can I borrow it?

Cindy

Greetings all,

Sorry to fill up your mailboxes again but I have six other Celtic Language greetings (welsh, scots, manx, etc.) but I'm not entirely sure which is which. If someone would like a specific greeting posted please give me its spelling and language and I'll upload that image for everyone. You can contact me here or privately (mfjfarrell@yahoo.com). Thanks again...
Slan

Happy New Year - Irish Gaelic

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

As I've been looking back over this year in my own life, one of the treasures that I hold dear is the group here at CCS. Thank you all for your participation, you have been a blessing to me!

Fr Jim - thanks for the great post on penance from the Orthodox view. Most of us are familiar with the Catholic theology and formulas for it but I must say, it was an 'illumination' to read your explanation. For the sake of the 'newbies' here, though, I need to point out that the assertion "The Celtic Churches were Orthodox," needs to be clarified. East and West were still one during the time of the Celtic Churches, they were part of the catholic, apostolic, orthodox Early Church. The Great Schism which gave birth to the Orthodox and Catholics Churches as separate entities didn't occur until 1054 A.D., long after the demise of the Celtic Church. While most of us understand that you meant the Celts' theology was more closely aligned with the East, their rituals were definitely Western in style and practice. The 'newbies' may not be aware of that difference. But thanks again for the enlightenment you gave us about penance.

May you all have a wonderful New Year's celebration and the God of Glory lead us to Himself in this coming year...

Slan,
Marty

CHRIST IS BORN!
  GLORIFY HIM!
   
  Hi, Gina--
   
  Actually, the penance system you're talking about is Roman. The Celtic Churches were Orthodox, and we see it a little differently.
   
  The Romans hold that the priest has a special grace from God to, personally, forgive sins. So, confession is done to a priest, who acts as the "one another."
   
  Orthodox look to Christ alone as the One Who forgives sins. He is immediate and present to us, and does not need to delegate this authority to anyone, least of all, me! My job is not to forgive you, but to announce to you that God has forgiven you. As a matter of fact, you don't even need to make your confession to me! You can make it to a trusted spiritual friend or spiritual director or advisor (in the West we'd call this person our anam chara), and come to me declaring you had confessed your sins to your anam chara and done your best to get right with those you have wronged, and I would announce to you God's forgiveness on behalf of the Body of Christ, the Church. I like the formula in the Liturgy of St. Tikhon: "Hear what comfortable words Christ has spoken..."
   
  A Roman priest gives a "penance" so you can "make up for" the things you did. He might suggest you pray for the intercession of a particular saint whose particular merits are thought, in their very complicated system called the "Enchiridion of Indulgences," to sort of "fill in the gaps" in the "merits" you would have needed to not have sinned in these ways. The Biblical root of this is found in Paul's derclaration that he "makes up in his body what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ."
   
  Again, Orthodox look to Christ alone as the Fount of Redemption. We value the prayers of the Church in Heaven, but as friends and elders, not as some sort of chain of command. What Paul meant was that He is deliberately and voluntarily present to Christ, and progressively removes from his life what is in the way in his walk with the Lord. The sufferings of Christ, together with His subsequent Resurrection and Ascension, resulted in our being presented with a gift. We still need, ourselves, to accept it and open it. What is "lacking in the sufferings of Christ" is my consent and co-operation. I make it up in my body, because this consent and co-operatrion are not simply "spiritual" or theoretical--I am expected to do them.
  So, Orthodox priests do not prescribe "lists of stuff." Rather, we give advice on how you might deal with the things that are getting in your way. This is a three-way conversation, between you, the priest and the Lord. Confession is a Thin Place.
   
  I can remember that I once prescribed to someone, as a penance, to get away for at least a week and take a vacation. Why? Stress was creating anger and frustration which was provoking sinful behavior. We got the person's slate cleared, and two weeks later, full of rest and prayer (part of it was not to neglect morning and evening prayers), there arrived at home a changed person.
  Just a side note: like the Celtic clannad, the Church is not a "collection of individuals." It is a Body, bound together in organic unity The transitions and passages of our lives take place within the Church for the same reason our stomach doesn't run around by itself on the living-room floor when we're digesting something. So, Body-life is essential. That's why the one act of confession and absolution (which is a Sacrament entrusted to the Church because what we bind and loose on earth is bound and loosed in Heaven) can take place on different days, between different people (the anam chara and the priest), and over time (as penance is done), is one holy act, performed in a timeless and spaceless moment, in the Thin Place of getting right with God.
   
  Hope this helps.
   
  Nadolig llawen!
   
  Fr. Jim <><
  revjvr@yahoo.com
   
    
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  

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Hey Gina,

You've been a blessing to us here too. Your questions are on target... your perceptions are acute... you're good for us here too!

Slan
Marty

also scotty,
thanks for your post about researching and learning about history. i had never heard that verse before ("For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope" (Romans 15:4). ) so that was a wonderful lesson for me. i just always used the saying 'those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. (in summer school)' hehe. see, i always knew there was an important reason to study history!

i'm really learning alot here, so keep up the great lessons everyone.

i also just want to say, that i really appreciate everything you all have done for me, not just in teaching me, but in being there for me (whether on this site, or the yahoo groups) when i really needed someone, and for your prayers and friendship.
you have all really become family and i am so thankful to GOD for guiding me to you!

Blessings
Gina

Fr. Jim,

Thanks so much for your post! i always learn so much here! let me ask you another question about penance- (again, i'm protestant - so i know very little about confession) . i know that the Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another- in that i wish i were part of a church that has a confession system. i absolutely understand the need for this, but what i do not understand is why priests usually give out penance requirements like saying so many hail Marys and all that. how does that work and is hail Marys the only type of penance?

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Scotty,

I hope you had a pleasant Christmas! Thanks for the post, it made me think about how the early Celts were such scholars. Sometimes I wonder if they loved the Lord more or the learning! Even today in modern CC, you can't really grow in this belief without being a 'seeker' of truth (and history). The Romans 15:4 verse was a good reminder of it!

I was just over at Yahoo! Groups looking to see if any other CC groups had started up recently and I still see the preponderance of 'do-it-yourselfers' ranging from wiccan to buddhist CC groups. It made me a little sad to see that there are those who still want nothing more than to follow their own creations! (btw - our 'friend's group is pretty dead!)(its sad to see a brother lose his way) But without the research and the heartfelt study you are bound (limited) by what you already know. Study does show yourself 'approved'!

Well, that's all my mind can come up with this morning! I hope you all had a great Christmas and are looking forward to the coming New Year...
May the Lord of Light continue to illumine our hearts and minds...
Slan
Marty

I wanted to share this devotional with the group. I like how it brings all of time and space into on glory of God. Like Lewis wrote: We worship a church that is with out time and space and has no beginning or end. ( or to that effect)hehe

Ancient Times

"I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times" (Psalm 77:5).

The Bible provides for us a fascinating perspective on the passage of time. Three thousand years ago, the psalmist was reflecting on God's ways in even earlier times and was seeking to understand God's ways in his time. Each new generation seems to think that it is the "new wave," leading the world out of its past darkness into a new age of enlightenment.

There is need for scientific research, of course (in fact, this is implied in the "dominion mandate" of Genesis 1:26-28), but we need to keep in mind that true science is really "thinking God's thoughts after Him." The results of our scientific "discoveries" should always be to glorify the Creator and to draw men closer to Him, not lead them away from Him.

The same is true of history. We are merely the children of ancient patriarchs, and our moral natures are the same as theirs, all contaminated by inherent sinfulness and the need for divine salvation. God dealt with them as He does with us, so that every later generation needs to study and learn from the generations of ancient times and from God's inspired histories of them in the earliest books of the Bible -- especially Genesis, as well as Exodus, Job, and other ancient books. "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope" (Romans 15:4).

God is the same today as He was in Eden, on Mount Ararat, in Babel, and Canaan, and Sinai, and Calvary. "Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:1-2).

Great post Fr. Jim. Thanks for the advent 101. As Paul Harvey says:
Now you know the rest of the story.

IHHN,
Scotty

CHRIST IS BORN!
  GLORIFY HIM!
   
  Hi, Gina--
   
  Here's the deal on penitential seasons.
   
  During a penitential season we fast. A scholasticized West has misconstrued this into an act of self-denial to atone for our sinfulness--of self-punishment. But it isn't. We cannot, and don't have to try to, atone for ourselves. Jesus already did that.
   
  During Lent andf Advent we run toward, not away, from something. We run toward deeper prayer, and toward advancement in holiness. We fast, because that's a form of prayer. Fasting is physical prayer, and in our Lenten and Advent quest we want to be totally involved--body, mind and spirit.
  In Orthodoxy, our fast is not mandatory. There is a long and complex ;ist of struff that is prescribed (no meat or meat producs, for instance, including anything with milk, eggs or cheese in it). That's fine, as long ias it serves to keep us focused on the real job. At the moment when it becomes the real job, it's time to p[ckl our own fast.
   
  The real job is to progress along the Path of holiness. As we do, the Lord becomes more and more part of our life, and we become more and more part of His.
   
  Usually in our life we are able to identify a "besetting sin:" some wrong thing that's so ingrained in us, it feels like a "natural" part of us. This besetting sin is the doorway through which most of our sinful attitudes and actions enter, and it even provides an excuse fior many of them. The penitential seasons are when we attack these things, and try to break--or at least weaken--their hold on us. Usually, it's a millimeter-a-year rate of progress we make, but God is, nevertheless, pleased with it, and we will see amazing results from it in trerms of our ability to communicate with God.
  As for Advent, particularly:
   
  Advent uses anticipation of the birth of Christ as an icon of anticipation of His Return. Advent is not part of the Christmas Season (which lasts twelve days), but is a season of its own. It is a time of looking up, as well as of looking inward. We are preparing ourselves to be found a spotless bride, a wise virgin whose lamp is full of oil when it's time to go meet the Bridegroom.
   
  Advent symbolism.
   
  There are five candles in the Advent wreath: three of one color, one of another, and a white one in the center They represent the four Sundays of Advent and Christmas day. On Chrrstmas Eve, at the Midnight :Liturgy, the Advent candles are gone and rthe Advent wreath becomes the Christmas wreath. The white candfle is what is used to pass the flame to all the other candles in the church.
  There can be three purple (for penance) and one red (for commemoration) candle. There can be three blue (for the Theotokos, also for purity) candles and one red one, or a purple one. There can even be four white ones, optimistically anticipating the progress made each week (or four blue, four purple or, for that matter, four red), Over the centuries lots of different people in lots of different places have done it in lots of different ways. I'm sure that whenever the tradtion began, all the candles were just plain uncolored beeswax, anyway. So, the best bet is to allow yourself to be guided in your meditations by the way it's done in your particular parish.
   
  Antiquity:
   
  There is no reason to assume there has not always been a fast-period anticipating the Nativity and Easter. The early Church was much more serious about personal prayer than we are today, and fasting was not a big deal to them. They wanted to pray mentally, spiritually and physically, and fasting in anticipation or in support of the objective of their spiritual and mental prayer about almost anything, was second nature to them.
  This was so much the case that many of the early Fathers warned against excessive fasting. Pachomius, the founder of monasticism as we know it today, wore a hair shirt. He once counseled a young brother who wore a hair shirt, "that thing will do you no good at all." On another occasion, he declared a fast for his monastery. So, when the seller of the grain from which they were fasting arrived at the monastery, Silvanuis, the second-in-command (called he Prior), sent him away.
  Pachomius made Silvanus chase the merchant for miles through the desert until he caught up with him and brought him back. The reason: if the fast isn't voluntary, it isn't really a fast--isn't really prayer--but simply deprivation.
  This is a sort of hasty overview, but I hope it helps.
   
  Merry Christmas!
   
  Fr. Jim <><
   
   

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If you really want to throw a traditionalist into a fit, change up the purple with blue. We were just talking about that last weekend. One source goes so far as to offer that during Advent we must dwell on "…the sorrow we feel for not loving Jesus enough," many congregations are moving away from thinking of Advent as a time of repentance, and instead, as a time of joyful expectation. Just as in the later months of a pregnancy, we eagerly prepare for the new arrival, rather than feeling sad and contemplative. In this spirit, blue, the traditional color of the Virgin Mary, replaces pink and purple on the Advent wreath.

Again like we mentioned a few posts ago, traditions are only as good as the culture they are from and transfered to. Merry Christmas

Scotty

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Gina,

Among those who follow the Roman tradition, Advent has a certain tradition and uses certain colors (purple and pink). However, I think that even they exchange the candles on Christmas morning to symbolize the arrival of the Light of Christ. In my own tradition, we use green and red preceding Christmas and white on Christmas morning.

There is nothing like the children coming to the Christmas morning table (holiday foods) with the lights they have been lighting for four weeks suddenly shining brightly at their breakfast. So... no reason.. just a symbol!

I hope you had a good Christmas yourself. Ours was filled with family, food and laughter!

Slan
Marty

why are the candles all white? werent they in color before?

this is my first year doing Advent so i guess i'm just ignorant. :)

Rejoice! Our Redeemer has come!

i admit, i never thought it mattered either. but when you put it that way i guess you're right, it really is important.

i dont know how it reconcile the differences though, my response to the science was always< "when you deal with GOD, you are dealing with the supernatural, that which doesnt have to answer to natural laws."

i always figured that if someone doesnt want to believe, then it doesnt matter if you can prove the science wrong or not, they'll just find another thing to argue against the faith. if you really want to believe then you will. period.

From Sounds of the Eternal a Celtic Psalter by J. Philip Newell
Saturday Night Prayer

‘The crash of you thunder was in the whirlwind,
your lightnings lit up the world.
Your path was through the might water,
yet your footprints were unseen.' Psalm 77:18-19

Silence
Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

Unseeable
I have seen you this day
in the lights of the skies,
in the green of the earth,
in flowing waters.
Untouchable
I have felt you this day
in the warmth of the sun,
in the wildness of wind,
in the touch of another.
In and beyond my senses,
in taste and touch and sound
your mystery has been made known.
At the ending of the day,
in the darkness of the night,
in and beyond my senses
let me know your presence, O God,
let me know your everlasting presence.

Scripture and Meditation

“As the deer longs for flowing streams,
so my soul longs for you, O God.' Psalm 42:1

‘ The mountains may depart and the hills be removed,
but my steadfast love shall not depart from you.’ Isaiah 54:10

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

In my mother’s womb
you knew me, O God.
In my father’s birth
and in the birth of his father
were my beginnings.
At the inception of time
and even before time began
your love conceived of my being.
As you have know me
so may I come to know you.
As you prepared my birth
so may I make way for fresh birthings of your Spirit.
As you sowed all things in love
so may your love for all things be born in me,
so may your love be born again in me.

Recall the events of the day and pray for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

The rhythm of life is your, O God,
the changing of the seasons,
the busyness of the day and the night’s stillness,
youth’s energy and age’s measured pace.
For daylight followed by hours of darkness,
for the time of letting go
and of taking off the clothes of the day,
for the time of lying down
and being covered by the night’s intimacy,
for the overlapping of the seen and the unseen,
heaven and earth,
flesh and angels,
body and spirit,
rest and dying and new life
all part of your rhythm, O God,
thanks be to you.

Hey Scotty,

Thanks for the post... I couldn't agree more! Let's see how everyone responds to it!

Slan

I just got this in my e-mail from Answers in Genesis (answersingenesis.org) I thought it very profound to what we were talking about a few weeks ago. My wife and I were also having a conversation the other day on the subject. She has a minor in biology and is very out spoken against the evolutionary theory. She can not sit and watch anything on TV and stay calm when they begin to talk about millions of years. I try not to get too hung up on the actual number of years as God says that a day is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day. So whether the six days were literal 24 hour periods is not for me to debate, but this article does raise a great point.

Scotty

If a person believes the earth has a history of hundreds of millions of years, then they have to accept that a history of millions of years of death, disease, violence, and suffering led up to man’s existence. The reason for this is that those who believe in millions of years think that the fossil record (in which they see those supposed millions of years) was laid down over this huge amount of time—and the fossil record is a record of death, disease, violence, and suffering.

But the Bible makes it clear that death is an intrusion—an enemy. There was no death of animals or man before Adam sinned, as at the end of the sixth day of creation, God pronounced everything “very good.” What this means is that if a Christian accepts the history of millions of years of death before man, they’re telling the world that the Bible’s history is wrong!

In other words, the Bible’s history of death is incompatible with the history of death given by those who accept “millions of years.” The Bible is Truth—which means one can’t logically believe in millions of years.

Dia anseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

I see it is a bit quiet here so I'll take this opportunity to introduce another section from John O'Donohue's Beauty. Its about our view of Nature and God. Feel free to comment or question on any aspect of the text!
"Everything can be an occasion of God. The elemental presence of the divine is everywhere: wind, water, earth and fire witness to the urgency, passion and tactility of God. From these elements God fashioned the universe. It is not that God is reduced to a force of nature or that aspects of nature become mere images of God. Nature is divine raiment; the touch and flow and force of God touches us here but the divine presence is not exhausted by this. Both sensuousness of nature and our senses make the divine presence visible in the world. Nature was the first scripture, and at the heart of Celtic spirituality is this intuition: to be out in nature is to near God. When we begin to awaken to the beauty which is the Sensuous God, we discover the holiness of our bodies and our earth."

May the Joy which comes at Christmas be with you and all whom He has given you...

Slan
Marty

Glory to God in the highest, and peace on earth...

From Sounds of the Eternal a Celtic Psalter by J. Philip Newell
Saturday Morning Prayer

‘Wait for God,
be strong and let your heart take courage,
wait for God.’ Psalm 27:14

Silence
Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

Early in the morning I seek you r presence, O God,
not because you are ever absent from me
but because often I am absent from you
at the heart of each moment
where you forever dwell.
In the rising of the sun,
in the unfolding colour and shape of the morning
open my eyes to the mystery of this moment
that in every moment of the day
I may know your life-giving presence.
Open my eyes to this moment
that in every moment
I may know you as the One who is always now.

Scripture and Meditation

‘Seek God’s presence continually.' Psalm 105:4

‘I am the first and I am the last.
Do not fear for I am with you.’ Isaiah 44:6,8

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

At the beginning of time and at the end
you are God and I bless you.
At my birth and in my dying,
in the opening of the day and at its close,
in my waking and my sleeping
you are God and I bless you.
You are the first and the last,
the giver of every gift,
the presence without whom there would be no present,
the life without who there is no life.
Lead me to the heart of life’s treasure
that I may be a bearer of the gift.
Lead me to the heart of the present
that I may be a sharer of your eternal presence.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

In the many details of this day
let me be fully alive.
In the handling of food
and the sharing of drink,
in the preparing of work
and the uttering of words,
in the meeting of friends
and the interminglings of relationship
let me be alive to each instant, O God,
let me be fully alive.

From Sounds of the Eternal a Celtic Psalter by J. Philip Newell
Friday Night Prayer

‘The voice of God is over the waters,
the God of glory thunders.
The voice of God flashes for the flames of fire.
The voice of God shakes the wilderness,
and trips the forest bare;
and in the temple all say, “Glory!” Psalm 29:3,7-9

Silence
Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

In the temple of my inner being,
in the temple of my body,
in the temple of earth, sea and sky,
in the great temple of the universe
I look for the light that was in the beginning,
the mighty fire that blazes still from the heart of life,
glowing in the whiteness of the moon,
glistening in night stars,
hidden in the black earth,
concealed in unknown depths of my soul.
In the darkness of the night,
in the shadows of my being, O God,
let me glimpse the eternal.
In both the light and the shadows of my being
let me glimpse the glow of the eternal.

Scripture and Meditation

‘The whole earth is full of your glory.’ Isaiah 6:3

‘You made me in the image of your own eternity.’ Wisdom 2:23

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

At the heart of life
and in its heights
glory shines.
Within creation
and beyond
glory has it source.
Guide me to the heart of life
that I may know its heights.
Lead me further within, O God,
that I may know you as beyond.
In the sufferings of my heart
and the brokenness of creation
open to me further
the doors of the eternal
that through the pain that is within me
and the struggles that are around me
I may be guided to you as the heart of life,
that through the pain that is within me
and the struggles that are around me
I may be guided to you as in and beyond all that has life.

Recall the events of the day and pray for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

Bless me this night, O God,
and those whom I know and love.
Bless me this night, O God,
and those with whom I am not at peace.
Bless me this night, O god,
and every human family.
Bless us with deep sleep.
Bless us with dreams that will heal our souls.
Bless us with the night’s silent messages of eternity
that we may be set free by love.
Bless us in the night, O God,
that we may be set free to love.

i know it's useless to speculate, but what do you think ever became of those guys (the wise men)? do you think they followed his life, or went their seperate ways after seeing Jesus?

also, anyone seen "The Nativity Story"?

-Gina

Here is some cool holiday FYI

In western Christianity, tradition holds that the wise men were three kings on camels: Melchior, of Arabia, bringing gold to represent Jesus' royal nature; Balthasar, from Ethiopia, bringing frankincense, representing his divinity; and Caspar, from Tarsus (modern Turkey), bearing myrrh, another sap incense once used in death rites, presaging the Crucifixion.

The Gospel of Matthew doesn't say there were three of them or how long it took between Jesus' birth and their arrival, saying they came from the east following a star that led them to Bethlehem.

Matthew 2:11 says: "When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. And when ... they saw the young child with Mary his mother, they fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh."

Dia anseo isteach!

Greetings Cindy,

Thanks for the link it was good to hear it sung again in Irish! I followed the link you gave back to its homepage and found a wealth of other things that I think some may be interested in here.
http://www.irishpage.com/index.htm I liked the prayers and they even had a link to learning Irish! Thanks again for sharing it with us...

Slan
Marty

Speaking of Silent Night, I thought you all might enjoy this. http://www.irishpage.com/noel/silent.htm
If you click on the speaker icon to hear the song in Irish, you will hear Enya singing.
Enjoy!
Cindy
http://www.brigidofireland.com

cool! i'll have to see about reading it too! fiction?

Wow! So many messages, so little time! Yes, Gina, Brigid of Ireland is my book.
Cindy

From Sounds of the Eternal a Celtic Psalter by J. Philip Newell
Friday Morning Prayer

‘You make the gateways of the morning and the evening
shout for joy.’ Psalm 65:8

Silence
Be still and aware of God's presence within and all around.

Opening Prayer

In the light of the high heavens
and the infinity of dawnings in space,
in the darkness of ocean depths
and the sea’s ceaseless waves,
in the glistening of a creature’s eyes
and the dark life-blood that ever flows,
in every emanation of creation’s life
and the warmth that moves my body,
in the inner universe of the soul
and its everlasting foundations
your glory glows, O God.
In every shining of the world’s inwardness
and the warmth that moves my everliving soul
your glory glows.

Scripture and Meditation

‘I love the place where your glory abides.' Psalm 26:8

‘Your immortal spirit is in all things.' Wisdom 12:1

Prayers of Thanksgiving and Intercession

For the life that was in the beginning
and is now
thanks be to you, O God.
For the life that is now
and will always be
thanks be to you.
For those who have gone before me
and the men and women of every nation,
for the vitality of children
and the earth’s life-forms still to be born
thanks be to you.
In this great river of life
that flows behind me and before me
let me know that I am carried by you.
In this great river of life
that flows around me and through me
let me know that I carry you
and can reverence you in all that has life.

Pray for the coming day and for the life of the world

Closing Prayer

That your glory rises in the morning sun
and sparkles off flowing waters,
that the glory of the everlasting world
shines in this world
growing from the ground
and issuing forth in every creature,
that glory can be handled, seen and known
in the matter of earth and human relationships
and the most ordinary matters of daily life,
assure me again this day, O God,
assure me again this day.