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Alas, the formatting of QT scrambles the configuration of Shakespeare's name that I presented earlier on this list that is otherwise so evident in the quarto original of the 47th stanza of Shakespeare's A Louers Complaint. I will try again to reproduce it below. using "/" as a spacer representing letters and word spaces:

                     s
                     ch
                     e///r
                      s sp
                         o
                         r
 
The poet's surname is read from the top line in a descending hook form, downward from the "s" on a diagonal left to the "h" and then left to the "c" beside it. From there, continue down through "e" and then "s" (s-hc-e-s). Next, read right to another "s" and to the "p" beside it, and then directly up to the "r" above, to read s-hc-e-s sp-r," almost all in consonants (s-h[a]c-s sp[ea]r). I included also a second rendering of the second syllable of the surname in the stanza that reads "sp-o-r" that descends directly from the "p" -- a redundancy in rendering that reinforces the name.

The poet's first name is phonetically rendered in a "U" configuration as "W-YL-L," reading right to left from the "w" in "gloWed" on the second line, picking up the "YL" in "fLYe" on the line below and up again to the "L" in the original "gLowed." It appears again starting from the "W" in "bestoWed" on the fourth line that, reading upward, similarly picks up the earlier "YL-L" as "W-YL-L" -- another reinforcing redundancy, not to mention the "W-ll" that is to be found at the right stanza edge toward the bottom. Here they are below in configuration shown in capitals:

                 gLoWed
                  fLYe
               bestoWed
and:

     ll
    W

As I mentioned, this happens a few times throughout the stanzas, in numbers that tell that this is hardly the product of accident.

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Ben Alexander and I agree that the author of the Sonnets also
authored A Lover's Complaint. That was the thrust of my comment
earlier to this list.

My conclusion is based on the fact that you can find the
author's signature in some of the stanzas of A Lover's
Complaint. Take for example the device in stanza 47, the
last stanza, in which you can find the readings (mostly
consonants as in a shorthand version and the use of phonetic
representations), "s-hc-e-s sp-r" and "w-yl-l" (twice) and
"W-ll" as follows below. Check it out in the original quarto
facsimile:

                      s
                     ch l w
                     e r ly
                      s sp w

 ll
W

Obviously, only the author could have written a poem which
incorporates within it those configurations. The chance that
it is totally accidental because ever less credible with the
frequency of such appearances. Would an author, not Shakespeare,
have deliberately placed such devices in his poems.

Ben Alexander provides a terrific yarn and I would love to see
it in a film but with no thought that it could in any way tell
the story of the author of the Sonnets or others of Shakespeare's
work. (Read my earlier comment on this list for some further
background.)

David Basch

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Dear Stefan,

Yes, A Lover's Complaint is by the same author as the Sonnets who was Mary Fitton. The character Antissia in Mary Sidney Wroth's Urania is based on Mary Fitton and Wroth told the same story that I discovered independently. She wrote that Antissia was close to madness and wrote frenzied poetry and this concurs with the strangeness in A Lover's Complaint. The style is very similar to the commendatory poem to Richard Barnfield's 1595 Cynthia written by T.T. (surely NOT Thomas Thorpe!). Barnfield replied in a short poem to a mistress with a sacred name.

I can assure any reader is that I have not needed to use imagination, one can find Mary Fitton & William Herberts (Mr. W. H.) names hidden six times in Sonnets 122 / 123 / 124. I have worked out that her phonetic monogram was Fit-t-on, i.e. a conjoined double T, and she signed her name Phytton. The double comma in the first line of Sonnet 122 as printed in 1609 was not a typo but a clue to take the first two letters of the ensuing words and rearrange them. That line also starts with TT and the initial letters of the rest of the lines produce more evidence.

In my book, the Darling Buds of Maie I was neutral about Aemelia Lanier being the Dark Lady. I now know she had nothing to do with the Sonnets. Where we all went wrong was putting our faith in Sonnets 138 and 144 which had first been seen 1599's The Pasisonate Pilgrim. Thir insertion late in the sequence was a trick to confuse the whole chronology, and it worked for 400 years. Sonnets 127-152 (except 138 & 144) were written in parallel with sonnets 1-127.

Mary Fitton was William Herbert's mistress from about 1600 to 1607. Mary Wroth was his Mistress from 1614, and also his first cousin. I think (but do not know) that she was the other poet. "Captain ill" (S66) was either Admiral Sir Richard Leveson, Mary Fitton's cousin, or her first husband, Captain William Polewheel. I suspect that the "jewels in the carconet" (S52) was a brooch called "The feather of Diamonds" that William Herbert bought in May 1601 for £1,500.

Lastly, the brethren to whom the First Folio was dedicated were William and Philip Herbert. Philip was married in 1605 to Susan de Vere, daughter of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. Philip lived from 1603 to 1619 in a house owned by William Herbert along the banks of the Wiltshire Avon in a hamlet called Stratford sub Castle. Readers should have a proper look at Shakespeare's will that can be downloaded from the Internet, especially the bequest to Burbage, Heminge and Condell. This was written between the lines, in a different hand, by someone who spelled differently. Why does nobody ever mention this? Why is only a small portion of the copy of the will displayed in the Stratford Shakespeare Museum?

My reported findings are based on facts. They are findings that people who have gone down the wrong alleys cannot face. It is like Cinerella's slipper, it fits on (pun intended).
Ben Alexander

www.maryfitton.com

Oh, yes LC is WS's work. So leaving it out of the Complete Works is terrible.

Concerning A Lover's Complaint, I have reason to believe that this
was the work of William Shakespeare. It was put in with the Sonnets
in order to set the context as disappointed love, which both ALC and
the Sonnets share.

In both, love offers mixed rewards and finds the main character
in each unswerving in the wish to have satisfying outcomes from the experience of love.

The point in each is that the pursuit of these things is the divine plan. Hence, while we live, assuming health, we will strive to succeed in such
activities. The two sets of poems reinforce each other in this, with the Sonnets presenting these ideas in allegory and giving more details on our various spiritual selves involved in such activities.

Ben Alexander is the victim of reading in his own thoughts and preoccupations, superimposing these on to an incomplete, unknowable, factual historical record. It may make a great movie but it is not
history or Shakespeare biography.

Why so quiet here?

Edited by author 17-08-2007 19:56
[edit] Found it! And it is in the mail.

I desperatly searching for a copy of the Hyder E. Rollins variorum of the sonnets (2 vols). If you know anyone or anywhere who would be willing to sell me one, please send a mail to prikken.overien@gmail.com
Thanks

Could anyone please direct me to sonnets, if any, that treat letter writing or passing of notes?

Dear Stefan,

I am confident that A Lover's Complaint was written by Mary Fitton, (but imagining herself an old Lady to disguise identities). It was written between 1601 and 1609 after her affair at Court with William Herbert in 1600. She was born in 1578 and W.H. was born in 1580. She describes her seduction by Herbert

However, when writing it I think she also had in mind a previous infatuation with Henry Wriothesley, Southampton, whom I am again confident she addresses in V&A & Lucrece's Dedications. I think V&A was written by Mary Fitton with help from Richard Barnfield whereas Lucrece was written as a collaboration. Her name is clearly embedded in the second verse of V&A.

The stray Sonnet "Phaeton" was probably written by her in 1591.

Best Wishes,

Ben Alexander
www.maryfitton.com

Dear David and Ben!
Just wondering were A Lover's Complaint is fitting in with the Sonnets in your views?
And any one else, really, views and comments on the Complaint is welcome.
Stefan

I desperatly searching for a copy of the Hyder E. Rollins variorum of the sonnets (2 vols). If you know anyone or anywhere who would be willing to sell me one, please send a mail to prikken.overien@gmail.com
Thanks

Ben Alexander's synchronization of the plight of William Herbert and Mary Fitton with the writing of the first 17 of the Sonnets is interesting but hardly evidence that there is a connection between the two.

As I have argued, the Sonnets are allegorical. The first 17 sonnets in my interpretation concerns a soul that aspires to a higher life above earthly, terrestrial interests. The voice is the poet's middle level soul addressing his higher soul and urging him to get with life or otherwise he will waste his gifts as well as the human race if everyone was so idealistic like him, wanting to shun the urges of the lower soul that would bring him to earth and enable him to care about this connection.

Dear Stefan,

Just to demonstrate my findings consider the first 17 sonnets.

Mary Fitton, seven months pregnant with William Herbert's child is writing them to William Herbert who was born in April 1580. It is February-March 1601. She is asking him to marry and have children; he has already turned down four suitable prospective wives. She is under house-arrest in London.

William Herbert is in the Fleet prison, sent there by the Queen because he has refused to marry Mary Fitton. He is not yet 21 so the Queen can make him a ward of court and determine his future, but (I think) his famous mother, Mary Sidney Herbert, who is a friend of the Queen, intervenes and prevents this happening. On 19th January, on the death of Mary Sidney Herbert's husband, William's father, the second Earl of Pembroke, William became the third Earl of Pembroke.

Given this background you are now in a positon to be able to enjoy these 17 sonnets written by Mary Fitton to William Herbert (Mr W H) at this time.

Yours sincerely,

Ben Alexander
www.maryfitton.com

I'm sorry Ben, but your theory do not help me in understanding the sonnets as poetry. It is the stuff for a novel or maybe a movie, but not literary criticsism. My favourite book on the sonnets must be Helen Vendlers massive and impressive book, where the sonnets are read as poetry. And poetry is my concern.

Dear All,

More evidence that the sonnets were written by Mary Fitton & William Herbert (Harbert).
S122 TThy gift,, thy tables, are within my brain

I had worked out that the TT was the monogram of Mary Fitton (Fit-T-on); what I did not understand was the two commas after "gift", I sensed it was a signal from Mary to her lover, but could not understand what. The following sounds fantastic, but these two lovers were exceptionally clever.

Take the first TWO letters of each of the following words TH TA AR WI MY BR and rearrange and one gets "MY WI HARBART". The word "gift" has FIT for Fitton and a "g". There is a poem by Richard Barnfield, who was a friend of Mary Fitton's, which ends
If thou from glove do'st take away the g
Then glove is love and so I send it thee.

S123
No! Time, thou shalt not boast that I do change
Thy Pyramyds built up with newer might

NO T
THY PYRAM

The above letters spell MARY PHYTTON which is how Mary Fitton signed her name in a letter to her sister.

The first letters of the rest of the lines are TT O W A T T N F M T I This makes M-A FITTON and W-T, W-T being the first and last letters of William Herbert (I have seen exactly the same anagram in one of William Herbert's own poems published in the 1650s.

S124

Yf my dear love were but the child of state

Yf My I had identified as short for May Fy(tton); what I missed when I published my "Darling Buds of Maie" was the very subtle "were but" is phonetically w(william) (h)erebut.

Venus & Adonis

In Venus & Adonis verse #2 we have "to all nimphs" which is an anagram of Mall Phiton's, she was known as Mall (Mistress Mall - Twelfth Night) - at Court.
Spread the word!

Sincerely,

Ben Alexander

The Dedication matrix that I sent to this list gets distorted by the fact that the font used on it is proportional. The original of the matrix I sent was in a font in which all letters have the same width. If anyone copied the matrix and changed the font into a uni-width font, the matrix would appear as it was sent.

Concerning the theory that Mary Fitton wrote the Sonnets, I don't think one swallow heralds the Spring. There may seem to be parallels to real lives in connection with the Sonnets but this does not show that that is what the Sonnets is about.

I presented my own case, which shows a different essence to these poems, which is allegorical. The young man and the young woman in these poems are allegorical representing man's good and bad angels. Other sonnets, like 30, 31, and 105 address God and the poet's deep love for Him.

I even found Shakespeare's cipher code in the Sonnets which further confirm facts about what the intention of the poet is and what his beliefs are. Apparently, these findings are so stunning that no one will even bother to check them out publically, preferring to hold his own thoughts than to let new light in.

I did show the presence of the Equal Letter Skip code in the Dedication and the use of steganographic codes in the vertical alignments of letters. These show such things as Shakespeare's full name, the Latin motto of Christopher Marlowe, and transliterations of the Tetragrammaton, the four letter name of God in the Pentateuch. I invite everyone to check out the downloads on my website at

  http://www.ziplink.net/~entropy/ and at
  http://www.ziplink.net/~entropy/codes.htm

Which contain further information.

Dear David,

My conclusion, through thorough research, is that the Sonnets were written by Mary Fitton and William Herbert.

Having put my money where my mouth is and published my findings, it later occurred to me that Mary Fitton could have written Venus & Adonis. It was only a passing thought, but my logic told me that, if she did, she would embed her name, not in the first verse, but in the second or third. She was known as Mall Fitton but she spelt her surname starting Ph.
Her name is indeed embedded in the third line of the second verse and consecutive letters, rearranged, spell out Mall Phiton's. The conclusion being that the then 16 year old Maid of Honour could have had a crush on the 20 year old Henry Wriothesley. HR, however, made another Maid of Honour, Elizabeth Vernon, pregnant and had to marry her.
There are a number of parallels between HW and HW, the pressure to marry, both being put in prison, both being young earls. They are like two very similar jigsaw pieces but HW does not quite fit, and WH fits perfectly - he was also born in April and had a famous mother. WH was younger than MF by two years.

There is no doubt that Mary Fitton was highly literate and wrote copiously. Mary Sidney Wroth tells us so in her allegory "Urania". William Herbert teases MSW, who was a very accomplished writer in her own right, that she did not match up to Mary Fitton's ability.
But I still have to keep an open mind about any Wriothesley connection to the sonnets so I wonder exactly how the reader of the Sonnet's dedication would know that it contained a coded name, how s/he would know where to start, and what number skip(s) to work on. I cannot see the Dedication being some sort of puzzle for the general public to solve. Perhaps you can respond to this?

When I first read the Dedication I wondered whether the "setting forth" was an indicator to 4-skip indication but rejected this. I settled on counting the number of printed characters in each line and saying 17=A, 18=B etc.

My research has an integrity to it. I have not used conventionial analysis even when it supports me. For instance, I have read authoritively that Samuel Daniel (Pembrokes Household tutor) and John Florio (Southampton household tutor) were bothers in law, and that Florio and Francis Meres were also brothers in law. There is also a supposed connection with Thomas Lodge's Rosalynd and Spencer's Fairie Queen. It would be so convenient to accept all these connections as it would explain how Francis Meres was able to list and identify Shakespeare works before they even bore the Shakespeare name.
Regards,

Ben Alexander
www.maryfitton.com

The way Quick Topic presents material does not
properly show this material. I am trying this again
below since the columns didn't come out aligned in
the last printing. I hope it looks better this time.

(18 letters wide)

x x x x x x x x x x x x x T O T H E
O N L I|E B E G E T T E R O F T\H E
S E I N|S V I N G S O N N\E T S M r
W H A L|L|H A P P I\N E S S E A N D
T H A T|E|T E\R N I T I E P R O M I
S E D B|Y|O V R E V E R L I V I N G
P O E T W|I S H E T H T H E|W E L L
W I S H I N G A D V E N T V|R E R I
N S E T T I N G F O R T H T T


        E H
        S E
        L H N
        E T R
        Y O
          I W
                            R

I sent a message noting that the name of Henry Wriothesley,
the Earl of Southampton, is contained in an Equal Letter
Skip (ELS) code in the Sonnets dedication. For those who
have not seen this before, here is a matrix that reveals
how this was done.

Letters of the Sonnets dedication are shown below in
sequence in a matrix 18 letters wide. This displays all letters in columns that are 18 letter skips apart. The
name Wriothesley was broken into three parts: WR IOTH ESLEY but each is presented at an ELS of 18 letters, though IOTH runs backwards.

The first row of the matrix
was advanced in order to enable the name HENRY to be
displayed in this matrix. This name, which is at a 15
letter skip, shows up in this matrix on a diagonal
slanted to the left. Note that the "Y" of HENRY is the
same as the "Y" of ESLEY, the only letter "Y" in the
dedication. Letters noted with a minus (-) skip are
read upwards.

   (18 letters wide)

x x x x x x x x x x x x x T O T H E
O N L I|E B E G E T T E R O F T\H E
S E I N|S V I N G S O N N\E T S M r
W H A L|L|H A P P I\N E S S E A N D
T H A T|E|T E\R N I T I E P R O M I
S E D B|Y|O V R E V E R L I V I N G
P O E T W|I S H E T H T H E|W E L L
W I S H I N G A D V E N T V|R E R I
N S E T T I N G F O R T H T T


        E H
        S E
        L H N
        E T R
        Y O
          I W
                            R


 HENRY @ SKIP OF 15 LETTERS marked with
 WR @ SKIP OF 18 LETTERS }
 ESLEY @ SKIP OF 18 LETTERS } marked with |
 IOTH @ SKIP OF -18 LETTERS }

For those interested in the Sonnets, here is some discussion
about the Sonnets, featuring information on the name
embedded in the Sonnets Dedication, and the equal letter
skip code found in Sonnet 148. It ends with news about
a cipher code found in Sonnets. More information on these
topics can be found at the site,
www.ziplink.net/~entropy/codes.htm , including for downloading the Introduction to my book, The Shakespeare Codes.

Louis W. Thompson makes a good point that some things that look like encoding are really accidental, like the IOCCOCA acroynym that happens to emerge in connection with the name of his company. Though this is accidental, it calls to attention that we must check out alleged instances
of things that appear to be codes to see if they pass a test of validity.

This test is passed with flying colors for Henry Wriothesley's name in The Sonnets Dedication since it is virtually impossible for a long name like
this to have arrived in the Dedication unescorted by the intention of the writer. John Rollett and others calculated the possibility of chance here as 1 in many billions. On the other hand, when we do establish this ELS
presence, there remains the problem of interpreting its significance.

For example, while I don't think so, it is possible as Dan Decker theorizes that it was T.T., the one who signed the Dedication, and not the poet that placed Henry Wriothesley's name in it. But notice how Dan misses the big picture, that this presence proves that the Equal Letter Skip (ELS) device was known and used at the time. To establish this fact may be the reason the writer presented this name that was so hard to miss. Hence, if someone later finds further ELSs in sonnets, which are texts of only about 500 letters, the finding should not be summarily dismissed as impossible but ought to be investigated for authenticity.

Lengths of ELSs longer than 3 letters are a good beginning toward suspicion of authenticity. ELSs of four, five, and more letters are noteworthy enough to warrant
this, especially if some of these are found twice.

Consider the two ELS strings, W-I-L-L, found in Sonnet 148. Mathematically, the two together have a 1 in 13 chance of being in this sonnet accidentally. This calculation takes into account the total number of letters in the sonnet and the number of its "W"s, "I"s, and "L"s. While 1/13 is not a strikingly low probability, when this is considered in context with the fact that the sonnet opens with the words, "O Me!", and that the acrostic "I-W-I-L" appears on lines 5 to 8, and the full name of the poet shows up in vertical/diagonal configurations abreast of one another as follows:

  [10] eare
  [11] ake i
  [12] selfe h eere
  [13] l s p
  [14] w s

(and note that the the vertical w-l-l is embedded in the telltale word "selfe"),
the presence of the two ELSs "WILL" takes on added significance, telling of deliberate contrivance.

I notice that B.A. in a note to the list tried to discredit the fact that an ELS of Wriothesley's name appeared in the Dedication, alleging that it is only made to seem so as a result of a misleading matrix I presented. But this matrix is standard procedure for investigating ELSs. All I did was to write out the Dedication in sequence, letter by letter, piled up in lines 18 letters long. This displays in vertical columns all letters that are 18 letters apart. "HENRY" showed up in this matrix on a diagonal slanting to the left since its letters are spaced 15 letters apart. To deny that this name is in the Dedication is to be a candidate for membership in the Flat Earth Society.

B.A. also misleads by obscuring the fact that I stated in my posting that it was a "cipher code" that I discovered in The Sonnets about 8 years ago, not Rollett's ELS code, which I learned of about a year ago. The discovery
of the cipher code was the result of luck and my having a cultural background critical to its recognition, not any superhuman brilliance on my part. As a result of this discovery, I was in effect guided by the poet in many things that I later came up with, not through any superior imaginative faculty.

Hi there! I know this is kinda off topic, but what the heck, it's my board. I want to know if there is any modern single editions of "Venus and Adonis" and "Lucrece".

Dear Colleagues,

A very well researched book, Craig Ferguson's "Valentine Simmes" 1968, has a lot of useful information about the printer of some of the works of Shakespeare. Sight of the original printings of the Passionate Pilgim and the Sonnets can be found on the Internet. George Eld worked with Simmes in some capacity and, since he obtained Simmes' artwork, it would appear that he either took over the business or obtained some of the assets. It is my own research / observation that links the Passionate Pilgrim with Simmes.

The knowledge that William Herbert had an affair with Mary Fitton and that she lost their baby is common knowledge, one can read about it in "Sex in Elizabethan England" by Alan Haynes, 1997. This is a well researched and serious book.

My own research started off when I was creating a demography of Manchester under the Tudors & Stuarts and discovered twins called Alexander & Margaret Radcliffe who I'm confident are echoed by Sebastian & Viola in Twelfth Night; Sir William Knollys in real life, Malvolio on stage, was Mary Fitton's guardian and fell in love with her, I have read his letters to her elder sister.

Since January I have sold nearly 200 copies of my book, "The Darling Buds of Maie" (via Amazon) which explains the Sonnets and the story that inspired them. If I had to review the book, I would say that it the forensic detail would not hold the patience of doubters. But for people who want to get to understand what really happened and appreciate the full power of the poetry, and can use their imagination as to what two lovers were going through, I can promise a revelation. The Lovers Complaint tells of Mary Fitton's being seduced - that is why it was printed with the Sonnets.

In Sonnet 126, the last couplet is missing, as if to say, "That's it, mate, it's all over! The affair stops here!" Note the previous use of the word "quietus" it only appears once elsewhere in Shakespeare, in Hamlet, which was written (Q1) in 1601 when William Herbert was going through a period of absolute trauma.
Note the number of references to flowers & weeds in the Sonnets, then read the same knowledge of flowers in Hamlet and A Winter's Tale (MF wrote zel for zeal, and there is a character Florizel). Mary Fitton's early portraits have her holding flowers, including a Pansy, the emblem of the Fittons - her sister does not hold flowers. The flower Pansy appears only once in Shakespeare - Ophelia's flower scene.

Although she was known as Mall Fitton, William Herbert called her May - there is an 11-line poem of his, the initial letters of each line can be rearranged to spell MAY FITTON and the other two letters W & T are from the first and last lines and are the first and last letters of William Herbert. The poem bemoans the fact that he is trapped in a marriage.

The last line, "is to render thee" can have a few meanings on face value, but it also is an anagram (depending on spelling and borrowing an s) of "story ends there".

Regards

Ben Alexander

Dear Stefan,

The Passionate Pilgrim was printed for W Iaggard. Nobody has yet picked up that the decoration for the book was that used by the printer Valentine Simmes who was involved in a number of Shakespeare plays.

Valentine Simmes workshop was very close to Baynards Castle where William Herbert lived. I surmise that since neither Fitton nor Herbert, because of their social positions, dared have published what was a small book or booklet, and the book ought to have been registered, that a recognised publisher needed to front the publishing. If you look at the context of the book, it is nothing more than a collection of 20 short poems, so why publish, and who would buy? Again I surmise that this was printed to be a (Christmas or New Year's or Valentine's Day) gift.

What I also discovered was that Richard Barnfield was known to Mary Fitton and that "Master R.L." in the PP is probably Richard Leveson. [I really have done extensive research and cannot afford to be loose in interpreting my findings.] I am fairly confident that Mary Fitton wrote Venus & Adonis and used the pen-name William Shakespeare, and that she also wrote A Lover's Complaint using the same name.

The secret of the authorship had to be a secret. The pregnancy of Mary Fitton in 1600-1 was the big Court scandal of that year. Everyone thought the two lovers had gone their separate ways but they retained a passion / obsession for each other, despite WH marrying in 1604 and MF marrying in 1607. Time and time again in the Sonnets is this need for secrecy mentioned. Sonnet 76 - "every word doth almost give my name..." Imagine the word e-v-e-r-y written down in italic handwriting, it almost looks like "mary" - I have a copy of Mary Fitton's handwriting to demonstrate this. They did not use typewriters in those days. The other fact is that she spelt her surname phytton.

The PP was, to my mind, a compilation of poems by one or both lovers. The LLL poems would probably be known to the compiler because (s)he was at the Court performance. It gets even more interesting if MF was involved in writing LLL.
Regards,

Ben Alexander

Dear Stefan,

The Passionate Pilgrim was printed for W Iaggard. Nobody has yet picked up that the decoration for the book was that used by the printer Valentine Simmes who was involved in five or six of the Shakespeare plays.

Valentine Simmes workshop was very close to Baynards Castle where William Herbert lived.

I surmise that since neither Fitton nor Herbert, because of their social positions, dared have published what was a small book or booklet, and the book ought to have been registered, that a recognised publisher needed to front the publishing.

If you look at the context of the book, it is nothing more than a collection of 20 short love poems, so why publish, and who would buy such a small book? Again I surmise that this was printed to be a gift (Christmas or New Year's or Valentine's Day).

What I have discovered was that Richard Barnfield, whose poems are also in PP, was well known to Mary Fitton (they became neighbours and relatives intermarried) and that "Master R.L." in the PP is probably Richard Leveson. [I really have done extensive research and cannot afford to be loose in interpreting my findings.] I am fairly confident that Mary Fitton wrote Venus & Adonis and used the pen-name William Shakespeare, and that she also wrote A Lover's Complaint using the same name.

The secret of the authorship had to be a secret. The pregnancy of Mary Fitton by WH in 1600-1 was THE big Court scandal of that year. Everyone thought the two lovers had gone their separate ways, but they retained a passion / obsession for each other (Sonnets 127-152 and I have other poems), despite WH marrying in 1604 and MF marrying in 1607. Time and time again in the Sonnets is this need for secrecy reinforced to the point that it almost becomes a threat. Sonnet 76 - "every word doth almost give my name..." Imagine the word e-v-e-r-y written down in italic handwriting, it almost looks like "mary" - I have a copy of Mary Fitton's handwriting to demonstrate this, and see the attachment - this is her handwriting. They did not use typewriters in those days! The other fact is that she spelt her surname phytton.

The PP was, to my mind, a compilation of poems by one or both lovers. The LLL poems would probably be known to the compiler because (s)he was at the Court performance. It gets even more interesting if MF was involved in writing LLL.
One other bit of information, George Eld who printed the Sonnets, worked with Valentine Simmes and later obtained Simmes' ornament blocks. I have also traced an almost direct connection between William Herbert and Valentine Simmes which is too complex to explain in a few words.

Regards,

Ben Alexander

I wish reliable sources were given out when such a discovery is made. Authoritative works like Rowse's and Giroux's don't ever mention this possiblility. Please acknowledge the source of your statement, so I may be quoted seriously.
Nora Kreimer
Instituto Superior del Profesorado Joaquin V. Gonzalez
Depto de Ingles
Profesora Titular Literatura Inglesa
Buenos Aires
Argentina
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Edited by author 22-08-2005 14:15
Ben Alexander writes: "Last year I discovered that Sonnets 1-126 were written in sequence over about five to seven years, by Mary Fitton a Maid of Honour to the Queen, to William Herbert, 3rd Earl Pembroke to her lover." /m18 My question then is how they went about to get it published in the name of Shakespeare? And what about the (at least) two sonnets that were known before the publication of Q? In other words, how did Fitton and Herbert get to sonnets in the Passionate Pilgrim? There are other questions, too. How has this been possible to keep secret for so long?

Last year I discovered that Sonnets 1-126 were written in sequence over about five to seven years, by Mary Fitton a Maid of Honour to the Queen, to William Herbert, 3rd Earl Pembroke to her lover. Sonnets 127-152 belong to Herbert and were written at various times during those seven years. I tried to prove myself wrong and all I found was more and more information to support my findings. My book "The Darling Buds of Maie" is available through Amazon but I am NOT trying to sell the book through these columns. A Lover's Complaint tells the story of the seduction.

I am happy to explain any reasonable question about the Sonnets to put to bed, once and for all, the question of authorship. It is a truly fantastic story that I have discovered and it is corroberated by William Herbert's cousin in her book, The Countess of Montgomary's Urania.

Once one understands the story, the poetry becomes alive. If you have got this far, try reading Sonnets 1-17 as written by a pregnant 22 year-old Mary Fitton, early in 1601, to 20-year-old William Herbert, whose father had just died, and who had been put in prison by the Queen for refusing to marry Mary. William Herbert was born on 8th April, and his mother was the very gifted sister of Sir Philip Sidney.

By the way, although most people called her Mall Fitton, WH called her May, and she spelt her surname Phytton (see the first two lines of Sonnet 123) where her name is embedded with a cryptic clue.

Regards to one and all,

Ben Alexander
www.maryfitton.com

Which plays do you think correspond best with the sonnets?
LLL is obvious, and maybe Antony and Cleopatra. Other suggestions?

Edited by author 19-06-2005 21:36
Nora Kreimer writes: <Generalizations never apply to Shakespeare, but let's grant that the Sonnets were not meant for publication, but were kept away until they were discovered by TT and got published in 1609> /m10
I do agree that generalizations never apply to WS, but still I do believe that he both authorized and arranged the sonnets. See Duncan-Jones introduction for some strong arguments for WS authorization. And if the versions in Passionate Pilgrim of 138 and 144 is earlier versions, revised later for publication it supports the possibility of WS arranging and revising the whole collection. See Stanley Wells' chapter on the Sonnets in his Looking for Sex in Shakespeare. I couldn't begin to understand why we should want the sonnets to be unauthorized? It is of course possible, but the evidence go both ways.
And Giroux' book is entertaining, but I do not necessarily agree with it. But it is nice to have the facsimile.

Edited by author 16-06-2005 21:14
I do think most writers need to be obscure and to hide/use masks, if only subconsciously. On the other hand I do believe that the end poem is the only way in which the poet could put into languague what s/he is trying to put across. A poem that loses nothing or very little in paraphrasing is not real poetry. Anyone who has tried to write some poetry (or other literary text) will have experienced that both words and form "take over".

I'd like to respond briefly to some of Nora's concerns. Southampton is my favorite candidate as the young man too, but I do not like to use topical or local references (especially when they are highly ambiguous and debatable) to date poems or other texts. Sonnet 1's reference to Beauty's Rose (and then the expected but missing R in dec(r)ease, seems to me "almost to name" Southampton--at least from the beginning of the 1609 Quarto order. His name, Wriosthesley may have been pronounced "Rose-ly." I have written an essay about Southampton and "Venus and Adonis" that suggests we need to use topical references and possible topical references to map out the various ways Shakespeare's writing may interact with the lives (and "semiotic systems") of persons who were likely to be in his audience. But that we do not have to limit these references in forced and artificial ways. This enables us to be more relaxed in our topical discussions, while it allows us to appreciate more fully the contexts within which the poems and plays were written. (If you are interested, my essay, called "Wriothesley's Resistance: Wardship Practices and Ovidian Narratives in 'Venus and Adonis'"--appeared in Philip Kolin's anthology called, "Venus and Adonis: Critical Essays [Garland 1997].) Sonnet 99 does share (as Vendler and others have noticed) a similarity as a "myth of origins" with "Venus and Adonis" and similar texts. I like the way Nora thinks of Sonnet 99 as a clever compliment. And I wonder how this sonnet also moves near to flattery, with neo-Platonic suggestions, while it also, keeps that other-worldliness in check because of the poem's movement between mental and physical states. Any suggestions?

I have for a long time been intrigued by the ways the Sonnets are very similar (yet with telling differences) to the various "figures" (or "fragments of discourse" described by Roland Barthes in his book, "Lover's Discourse." Barthes thinks the lover's discourse emerges from out of an extreme solitude that eventually turns into an affirmation. And his book, he suggests, "stages an utterance,not an analysis" (p. 3). When applied to Sonnet 99, Barthes's comments lead me to wonder: what is the dramatic situation in this sonnet? Is the poet alone or speaking directly to the young man (assuming of course that our traditional readings of that situation are maintained)? It seems a highly erotic poem to me, but the way it stages addresses to flowers (chiding, condemning, noting) seems to me to be both solitary (spoken in isolation) and intimate (spoken almost in an embrace with the beloved. The poet as lover figures the beloved's beauty as stolen by the "sweet" violet, the lily, buds of majoram, and the three roses. This is quite an anatomy of both flowers & the beloved's body. A footnote: The sweet violet, I think, is also called the violeta praecox. Praecox is a Latin word, if I remember rightly that means audacious or "forward." I suspect that there is a phallic pun here, or perhaps it is my imagination. But if there is, then it may lead us to wonder what (and who) is exactly being addressed in the first quatrain. This is just a thought: I probably would not defend this suggestion "to the death"--so to speak. But I suspect that the forward violet could be one way in which the poet figures his own sexuality and sexual arousal into the scene. Any thoughts?

Have you got the marvelous book by Robert Giroux, 1982. The Book Known as Q? Kindest regards
N.

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Every writer/poet hides and uses masks in their writing.

This is a false assumption that doesn't appy to such poets as William Wordsworth, for instance. Generalizations never apply to Shakespeare, but let's grant that the Sonnets were not meant for publication, but were kept away until they were discovered by TT and got published in 1609, a time WS's fame and popularity would have made them sell like hot cakes if WS has so wanted.
Regards
Nora Kreimer
Profesora Titular de Literatura Inglesa
ISP Joaquin V. Gonzalez
Buenos Aires
Argentina
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Edited by author 16-06-2005 11:24
Here is sonnet 99, copied from the excellent site http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/

The forward violet thus did I chide:
Sweet thief, whence didst thou steal thy sweet that smells,
If not from my love's breath? The purple pride
Which on thy soft cheek for complexion dwells
In my love's veins thou hast too grossly dy'd.
The lily I condemned for thy hand,
And buds of marjoram had stol'n thy hair;
The roses fearfully on thorns did stand,
One blushing shame, another white despair;
A third, nor red nor white, had stol'n of both,
And to his robbery had annex'd thy breath;
But, for his theft, in pride of all his growth
A vengeful canker eat him up to death.
More flowers I noted, yet I none could see,
But sweet, or colour it had stol'n from thee.

I do agree that my comment on its sloppishness was too hasty /m5. But as for dating it - that is risky business. I guess WS wrote these sonnets over a very long period, continously revising the individual sonnets as well as the sequence. I can't now remember were I read it, but is not the marjoram likende with the lovers hair for its fragrance rather than its curls? I do not particulary think the FF was Southampton. I go with Stanley Wells on this, and regard the sonnets written to several FFs. The narrative is only seemingly straight forward. The main characters of this sonnets are love, jealousy and lust. What persons WS was thinking of is not of any great concern to me. Rather I want to find out what I can learn from them. Besides they are great poetry in their on right and can be read for pleasure - pure pleasure.

REF: Sonnet 99

In his great book on the Sonnets, A.L.Rowse writes:

"This piece has a charming artificiality: it is an ingenious excercise in compliment, like the poems of the poets of the early 1590s wrote to their ladies. But its literary interest is greater, for it is irregular - it has 15 lines. It has been suggested that it is an unfinished draft, not ptoperly reduced to shape. I do not think so; for, notice, the 1&#BA; line is a prelude, an announcement; then follows the sonnet. LL 5-6 are not easy, for they are elliptical and open to alternatice interpretations. L 7 would seem to indicate that Southampton's hair, a golden auburn in his portraits, curled naturaly. There are parallels to L13 in both Venus and Adonis, 656, and Romeo and Juliet, II, iii, 30.
These two references seem to indicate the date of composition of this sonnet as near 1593. What date would you suggest?
Nora Kreimer

Profesora Titular de Literatura Inglesa
ISP Joaquin V. Gonzalez
Buenos Aires
Argentina


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Edited by author 15-06-2005 17:17
Maybe it is not sloppy,as I said. But I don't really get your reading Dan. I tried to read 99 again after your message /m6 , but I can't see it your way. Will did not love or was not in love with the FF? Sounds far fetched to me. That is if Will and the "I" of the sonnets are the same person. Certainly he (WS) is the writer of the sonnets, but I don't think of him as the speaker. The sonnets are personal, but it does not give much to the understanding to read them as private. Every writer/poet hides and uses masks in their writing. I don't regard Shakespeare's Sonnets as confessional poetry - they would not speak to us over 400 years if they were, or needed to be linked with WS's private life to be understood.

Stefan, I would have to disagree that 99 is a sloppy sonnet. It is exactly what Will intended it to be; he was in complete control of his craft by this point of his life. It appears sloppy only because we do not understand it. I've always read it that he broke with the sonnet form for the only time as an expression of his fury over the Fair Friend sleeping with Will's mistress and, for his theft, acquiring a case of syphilis. If that reading is correct, then this sonnet is the key to understanding Will's relationship with the FF: they were not lovers, not even close friends.

Edited by author 14-06-2005 08:50
Thanks, Patrick - and do spread the word. Yes, Helen Vendler's book is great. Hyder Rollins I have as yet to see, I can't get my hands on it. Anyone who reads this and have a spare copy, get in thouch. Another good book on the sonnets are the recent Oxford Shakespeare Topics book on the sonnets by Paul Edmondson and Stanley Wells. Edmondson and Wells see the extra 1st line of 99 as introductory. I tend to agree with Duncan-Jones that technically it is line 5 that is additional, adding a third rhyme to l.1. Some editors also lets 98 end with a colon. Anyway the two are closely linked. But 99 is a sloppy sonnet. These three (99, 126, 145) are not too good as sonnets, and would not be where I'd direct newcomers. Do check out my blog http://parergon.blogspot.com/ it is in Norwegian, mostly. But you'll find links to my article (in English) on Hamlet, and if you go to my links page, you'll get an idea of what Shakespeare sites I visit.

Stefan, This is a good idea. I will be happy to join you. I've been using Vendler's recent edition and commentary, but also usually rely upon Stephen Booth's edition with notes as well as the Hyder Rollins Variorum. The chapter on the Sonnets in C.L.Barber's and Richard Wheeler's book called "The Whole Journey" is one of the places where my own thinking about the sonnets returns, diverges, and finds some occasional clarity. I too am working on several projects that include the sonnets which I hope some day will see their way into print. So, let me spend a little time thinking about 99, 126, and 145 as breaks with tradition and the sequence(s) within the 1609 order. I've just been teaching "Romeo and Juliet" in a summer course and have been intrigued by the use of the words "break," "take" and "make" in that text. A quick question about Sonnet 99: Do you read the first line as a supplement or as a framing device for the first quatrain? Is it needed or required by the other 14 lines of this 15 line sonnet?

Thanks for getting this started.

I'm not too interested in who the young man/men, Dark Lady or ladies or W.H. where. It would be good to know as it would cast light on the reading of the sonnets. But there is more than enough to dig into as it is. The love, the lust and the jealousy. The sonnets break with tradition in many ways, as you know. Because of that I want to take a closer look at three of the sonnets first; 99 "The forward violet thus did I chide:", 126 "O thou, my lovely boy, who in thy power" and 145 "Those lips that Love's own hand did make". These sonnets "break" with the sequence, and that break might be an opening for us to look through.

I'm planning a book, or at least a long article on the sonnets. So any input would be welcome. But for starters you can recommend editions, books about Shakespeare's sonnets and books on sonnets in general.