Hello Edwin,
It's good to hear from you. I'm glad to hear of another Eun Mara under construction and that our discussions are of some help to you. We will look forward to seeing your photos some time.
Regards,
Ian (NZ)

Hi Burton,
I guess you're experiencing a problem that will effect us all eventually.
Does Canada still have older houses with lead waste pipes?

I built an extended Yachting Monthly Senior many years ago and had the ballast keel fabricated from 1/4' steel plate with welded threaded socket to take the keel bolts. I filled up the inside with steel punchings that are freely available from steel fabricators, machine shops etc and set them all in a slurry of epoxy

I don't see a problem if you have to use zinc, the bilge boards on the Heather Mary are heavily galvanised steel plate. As Ian said all other metals on the boat are well covered by epoxy.

Good luck with your research.
Alec

Hello all,

It’s allways a pleasure to visit the EM builder sites and this topic. The value of the forum is to me is to be encouraged and to read the opinion from several builders who have passed or are willing to pass the steps finally to sail a vessel. Facing the opinions from different points of view is a great value.
It helps me to find the answers on the questions I have. And about the things I didn’t mention about it like the corrosion of ss and the problems given in a period some 40 years from now. I may hope that they will be the first problems on my vessel.
Like I said last year “I’m starting “ Well today I did some planking no. 6. The size and shape of "de Notedop" are visible, and I still like the project. I planned to turn the hull in the mid of September. Before that moment I have to be ready with the lead ballast. That is my biggest concern. How to fix that challenge. My suggestion is one I will describe and I am sure that I won’t have to ask if there are any comments from you.
Since some years ago I own parts of a donorboat like the lead keel about ca 27 liters. This lead will be melt in a iron gas-bottle where the top is chopped of. That is my melting pot; put it above kingsize gas stove; make it liquid and use the potter-method to fill the mould. This mould is negative of a wooden plug. The mould is made of gips, and concrete bricks. Gips will easily break when releasing the lead. When the result is poor; no problem there is still the plug and start again. Before starting filling the mould I will install 12 mm ss bolts welded on a ss-strip 30 x 5 mm . (the bolts are fitting on the holes in the keel.) when all is done; place the lead in the middle of the room; wait for September and put the hull with help of some friends on top of the lead bar.
In my head it is an easy-does-it-job. Does anybody see some obstacles which I have to face and take them away.
For example How long will it take and what size stove should I use to melt ca 26 liters lead in open air situation on a summer day.

When my site is working I will let you know. What I did was taken some pictures from different stages. Please wait a while and I let you visit “de Notedop”

All the best Edwin

Looking good, Bob. That's an interesting way of fitting the upper rubbing strake.
Ian

I've just posted some photo's of Bob's newly fitted foredeck. Follow the link from http://www.geoss.com.au/eun_mara/. Nice work, Bob.

Though I've remained silent, I've been following with interest the discussion regarding the ballast keel, its SS bolts, and metal fittings in general. Thanks to all for your contributions.

Regards to all
Richard

Hi Burton,
Yes, that's a new twist all right. Have you investigated cast iron? This is shown in the drawings for the centreboard version EM, so I suppose it could be used for the bilgeboard version too, with any necessary adjustment to the dimensions. You would have to cast the bolt holes into it. All my silicon bronze screws are well buried in epoxy, so they should not be a corrosion issue. Incidentally, the big bronze cleats on the after-deck of my boat are bolted on with s.s. 316 bolts. I turned the heads from hexagonal to round and cut screwdriver slots in them. They are bedded on epoxy and the bolts buried in it too, as with all my s.s. fabricated deck fittings You can see the methods in the Gougeon Bros' book.
Cheers,
Ian

Thanks so much for all the great advice.

Here's a new twist: because of a recent tightening of government regulations concerning the use of lead in Canada (they won't even allow its use in shotgun shells or for fishing weights anymore!), I am having a devil of a time sourcing scrap lead or even finding a foundry that will cast a keel for me. The best proposal I have recived so far from a local foundry is to substitute zinc for lead, but this would entail having to increase the dimensions of the keel by 60% to make up for the difference in densities (i.e., a zinc keel weighing 400 LBS would require the keel to be 4" high by about 6.5" wide and 5'5" long). Do you think widening the keel by about 2.5 " would have an appreciable effect on performance? Is zinc a suitable material for this purpose (i.e., while obviously highly corrosion resistant, would there be major galvanic issues with other metals in close proximity, such as silicon bronze screws or even ss keelbolts?)

Burton

Hi everyone,
Well Burton is certainly accessing my archived brain cells, and I'm pleased others used s/s. As with Ian I used stainless(316)threaded rod but oversized it. I made the pattern for the keel and was fortunate to have a good friend in the Traditional Wooden Boat Squadron in Canberra who casts his own steam engine parts. I had collected sufficient lead previously and the mould was embedded in casting sand. We over-poured the lead to allow for shrinkage and it came out spot on. As per Ron's comments an electric planer was used to achieve a true bedding face.

With the hull turned over and propped up 12" from the floor I drilled down from the inside through the keelson,keel etc. using trolley jacks the lead keel was offered up to the wooden keel. Back inside the boat to mark the hole positions with the drill. Move the lead keel out and drill with a "spade" bit. Kerosine in the hole helps but the swarfe does clog up a bit. I used two friends who were there for the boat turning to keep the drill vertical at 90o to each other. Turned the keel over to counter-sink for the nuts and washers and to measure the length of rod. Liberal quantities of epoxy down the holes and I then bedded my keel on a fillet consistancy of epoxy, that may have been a mistake, but as Ian says for a boat that spends most of its life on a trailer we possibly worry too much. The keel has been part of the boat for 9 years now and in the water on and off for over 2 years. After I fitted the keel Bob L raised the matter of S/S failure from oxygen deprivation, thanks Bob. With the Heather Mary I have s/s rod "all over the place" I joined the inner and outer stems and stern posts with 3/8" rod, and all the dead wood assembly, so I hope all that buried s/s is not being eaten away. Still as a scientist friend of mine said, if "they" ever find a way to disrupt the complicated epoxy chain we will have hundreds of bits of wood held together with S/S.
Sorry about the ramble through times past, Alec.

Hi guys,
We have just got home today from a 3 day cruise of the northern end of Lake Te Anau for our Queens' Birthday Weekend, with three other boats. We motored all the way though, as it was flat calm when we were going north and a southerly when we were coming back south. A bit cold too, but a good trip over all.
I've just been enjoying your latest round of messages. We have happy memories of our visits to Bob, Richard, Alec and Ron after Goolwa 2007. Thanks again, all of you.
Here goes with my contribution on ballast and bolts:
When I asked local suppliers about bronze keel bolts they looked at me as if I was silly! I might as well have been asking for solid gold ones! So, after some reading and asking around, of people who should know, I came to the conclusion that for a boat that was going to live mostly on its trailer, I would use stainless steel 316 threaded rod for my keel bolts and the bolts that hold the bilge keels on. They are all totally embedded so that no water will ever get near them. The nuts on the bottom ends of my keel "bolts" are welded on, but I wouldn't insist on that. The U-bolt in the stem, and my rudder fittings are also s.s.316. By the way, I have seen a professional boatbuilder making bolts out of copper rod, threading one end, rivetting the head, and using s.s. 316 nuts on them. The galvanic scale puts bronze and s.s. 316 ( active? passive? ) fairly close, just from memory. Check it yourself. On the other hand, for a boat that would stay in the water, I would get bronze bolts any way I could, probably by having them cast. Aluminium bronze is strongest, by all accounts. It has a little bit of iron in it. You can use s.s.316 nuts on it too.
There are a few photos of my ballast mould and the ballast casting on Richard's website http://www.geoss.com.au/eun_mara/ian_dunedin4.htm . I wasn't brave enough to pour my own, so after discussing the job with the local foundryman, I bought 200kg (to allow for dross) of scrap lead from a scrap metal dealer, and took it with the mould to the foundry, and it was cast there. You have to seal the joints of the mould, but you don't have to coat the inside with anything. Let it scorch! I brought it home on my trailer, and used tackles off the roof-trusses, wooden trolleys with castor wheels, and 2-ton trolley jacks to manoeuvre the beast into position. I did a few rehearsals with a wooden dummy first. I have more photos if anyone wants to see them. You can also see on Richard's website how I made the keel and deadwood in vertical layers, with grooves routered in them to make the holes for the bolts. The bolts come up through the keel, keelson and floors. The bottom ends of mine have 40mm square washers (s.s. 316) recessed into the lead. I made a plywood pattern of the bolt holes on top of the floors, and then transferred it to the top of the lead, drilled the holes by eye, (but using a jig to keep the drill vertical would have been easier), and then chiselled out the recesses in the underside for the square washers and welded nuts. You have to keep pulling the drill out to clear the waste as you drill the hole. When I finally installed the thing, I used some kind of thick black adhesive-sealant out of a cartridge-gun, betwwn the lead and the boat and all up the bolt holes. I also rubbed it into the threads of the bolts (threaded rod) before I pushed them in. (The contact area of the hull was painted the same as the rest of the hull.) Opening portholes are definitely an optional extra, in my opinion. I made patterns for my fixed deadlights and samson-pin and had them cast in aluminium-bronze. If we want a breeze through the boat we open the forehatch.
Well, maybe that's enough for now. Sorry if I'm telling anybody how to suck eggs.
Cheers,
Ian

hi Burton
re casting the keel, I made a mould firstly out of old angle iron and supported over a fire in the backyard and put scrap lead in.
alas my welds weren't good enough and some of the lead ended up in the bottom of the fire. After cooling down I retreived the lead and tried again. On the third attempt with a new mould, a 5x4 inch channel it worked with a reasonable result. You have to watch shrinkage, more from the top down. It would be better if the mould is higher than 4 inch which gives it a bit of room to true it up with an electric planer. Easy!

About the s/s bolts who knows, I have them in my boat but went for a larger size. If you want bronze bolts I would seriously think about getting them cast. I found casting quite reasonable here and got most of my fittings and four portholes cast at a local foundry for $AU800.

Those hats sound good, Dale, but I might have to glue it on, I lost 2 hats on my recent trip. I ordered foam mattresses with covers for the berths today and am thinking about getting a cover for the boat.

thats all for now cheers all.

I'm not sure how I feel about the ss keelbolt issue: I understand Alan's arguments and have indeed read that ss relies on oxygenation to achieve full corrosion protection - in fact, a common cause of catastrophic ss shroud failure is crevice corrosion that develops out of sight - within the strand core - in areas where the shrouds are wrapped with tape and such. That is why it is recommended that ss shrouds be replaced every ten years or so regardless of their external appearance. On the other hand, I used to own a 40 year-old fiberglass Hinterhoeller 28 sloop with an external lead ballast keel bolted on with what appeared to be 1/2" SS keelbolts, and the portions protruding into the bilge looked just fine (though, again, external appearance with ss can be highly deceiving). In fact, I often see older production fiberglass boats with ss keelbolts which generally hold up quite well (at least, in the freshwater environment of the Great Lakes) - though surveyors usually recommend that they be renewed every 30-40 years as a precaution. I suppose the fact that these bolts are usually quite large in diameter means that it will take some time before they corrode to a dangerous extent?
   Notwithstanding, I shall certainly try to source threaded bronze rod if I can find it at a reasonable price, but otherwise will not hesitate to use ss albeit installed in such a manner as to be removable for future renewal.
     For other fasteners below the water line I shall be using silicon bronze screws (speaking of costliness, I just received my order for 200 no. 8 1-1/2" screws - a mere handful - which cost me $180 CDN, though that does include shipping from TenderCraft in Toronto).

I have yet to tell my forebearing wife, Lisa, about the cost of bronze opening ports!!!

Once again, thank you for the wonderful advice.

Burton

        Hi Alan,
                 I read with some concern your comments on using S/S keel bolts encased in epoxy through lead ballast. So I rang my guide builder, David Wilson at Duck Flat Wooden Boats, who has always given me reliable hands on advice in the past on many different issues with my boat.
                 I read your post 994 to him. David said you are technically correct in recommending bronze keel bolts. However due to cost and difficulty in obtaining bronze, many people have used S/S. He knows of boats that have lasted 30 years with keel bolts totally encased in epoxy, as mine are, that have had no problems. Some are big boats with bolts 3 ft long. I personally know of a boat which has lasted 25 years.
                 I found bronze impossible to obtain, and the reason I totally enclosed my S/S bolts in epoxy was basically to keep out the sea water.
                 I am not a metal technician, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I have no qualms whatever about the use of S/S bolts in my boat.
                 In pursuing the technical argument though, ( & I repeat I am not a metal technician, but perhaps I will learn something ) perhaps the following MAY explain why S/S bolts have lasted so long :-
                 1. If a S/S bolt is totally immersed in epoxy with no access to air or oxygen, where is the electrolyte that any galvanic action would depend on ?
                 2. If a S/S bolt is totally immersed in epoxy, then it is difficult to see how any one part of the bolt can have an electrical potential different to any other part of the bolt. Hense no galvanic action can occur, even if there is an electrolyte. ( This is unlike a S/S tail shaft in sea water passing through a bearing where corrosion can occur on the bearing covered portion due to wearing of the oxide skin as you have explained, and hense a difference in potential to the exposed portion.)
                The above may explain why a S/S bolt lasts or it may not. I do not know.
                The important thing is that in the real world S/S bolts properly installed do last.

               Dale, thanks for your kind offer for sending the caps. Richard did let us know about that, but for me anyway, I think we are having a lot of fun just as it is.

OK, look you guys, I thought I'd made this clear! Let's try it again:

1) E-mail me your physical address.

2) When I get it, I will send you a hat by return mail. Yes, a hat just like Richard's, Alan's, mine etc. Did I mention I sent one to Iain O?

3) This offer does not include Richard unless he no longer has his or you lot have worn the darn thing out already.

OR

Continue playing with the ONE you now have, as it seems you are having a great deal of fun with it!

Just remember that I'd happily send along more, if you ever come to the conclusion that one is not enough for the entire continent!

Dale (grin)

PS: You're very welcome, Bob.

          I have just re-read the story of our trip to visit Alec, and have realised I left out the most important bit ! You may remember that when Richard stayed with us a short while ago, that he passed on to me a green cap, suitably engraved with the letter EM above the peak, which he had received from Dale when he visited him last year.
          Well, I had a quiet word with Richard before this, but during our dinner on the second night I stood up with cap in hand and made a little speech. It was about the responsibility and honour placed upon the recipient, in receiving and caring for this worthy trophy, so that in the course of time it may be passed on again to another eligible builder or owner of our beautiful boat. Alec I think was in a state of wonder and disbelief, but Richard and I then moved to the head of the table and placed it on his head.
          You will have to imagine this because unfortunately we did not have a camera organised to capture the event, but we drank a toast, and with thanks from Alec continued to enjoy the night with such eligible company.
          Finally, thank you Dale !!

         Last week my wife and I returned from a trip to NSW and ACT ( Aust Capital Territory ). We drove up in stages via the coast and in Victoria from Lakes Entrance to the border it was mostly through heavily timbered country. Once in NSW the scenery changed dramatically with beautiful rolling hills dotted with trees and green paddocks despite the dry time prevailing. The climate compared to home was also distinctly warmer. Needless to say we were on our way to visit Alec at Cobargo and the home of "Heather Mary".
         We were welcomed with a beautiful roast dinner, and extra EM company with Richard and his wife coming over from Canberra for the occasion. As the day was also my 75th birthday we raised our glasses in true style. Thank you Alec & Heather.
         Alec has a lovely old style house set amidst green paddocks and hills. He has done an amazing job in renovating it all.
         Next day we took "Heather Mary" to Lake Wallaga nearby. The wind was quiet but enough to show her paces. It was my first decent sail on a Eun Mara and exhilarating. Alec handed me the tiller which was a bad error of judgement because a little later we found ourselves aground ! Alec went to the bow and prodded us off with the boat hook so that we jibed and took off again.
         We went upwind at first and then downwind the length of the lake. She is responsive and sails fast for the strength of the wind, and has the solid feel of a bigger boat. On our way back upwind to the landing we ran out of wind and had to start the outboard which packs a pretty good punch.
         Rigging and unrigging takes some time but Alec had previously taken the sails off, so it took longer than usual to sort everything out. However the lesson to me was to try and keep everything with the rigging as simple as possible. Alec can raise the mast by stepping on the butt under the pivot pin while pulling on the halyard, but I haven't got the strength to do that. I am going to try and make my mast as light as possible.
         That night we had another great dinner and Richard went home the next day. We stayed on and went walking along the beach, and chatted endlessly that night over the fire in the kitchen living area in true country style. It was a most enjoyable visit thank you Alec & Heather.
         We travelled home via Canberra and was welcomed once more at Richard's home where we spent another couple of days chatting EM, and of course checking out Skerry which is at about the same stage of construction as my boat. It was really good to see in the real and the wood work so neat. For a bunch of amateurs which we really are, the standard of construction for all EMs is I think very high. We put the electric motor and prop in place and gave it a run on 36 volts. It looks good in place and Richard has done a great job with the difficult task of mounting it into the hull.
         I will send Richard 2 or 3 shots of our day at Lake Wallaga to put on his website, thanks in anticipation Richard, but right now its time for me to hit the sack.

Burton, as far as keel bolts go, I agree finding suitable bolts the right size at these lengths would break the bank. What I used was actually 1/2 inch silicon bronze threaded rod. If I recall correctly, I got a 6 foot length for something like $75. Boatcraft in Edmonton (where most of my stuff was bought) got it in from Vancouver and came nicely attached to a 1 x 3 piece of lumber for protection. I then just ordered a supply of 1/2 inch nuts, washers, and lock washers, from Jamestown Distributors. I didn't use any 3/8 inch for keel bolts mine are all 1/2 inch.

I just checked: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userp...d&page=GRID&history=

It seems that 6 feet of 1/2 inch will cost about $160 US. At least the exchange is not too bad at present. I usually have long items cut down somewhat to save on shipping. Be sure to calculate lengths that keep waste to a minimum.