I don't know if you read through all of the responses at WiR. The respondents were split on the very issue you raised. One group said the same thing you did, i.e., female in comics are no more frequently abused than their male counterparts. The other group, to which the original author belonged, believed that females were disproportionately abused. I am not a scholar (not even an avid fan) of the genre so I have no special knowledge either way, but I was aware that the camp was split on this issue. Read especially Fabian Nicezia's comments to see someone who thinks that the facts are not in yet.

Once upon a time, I was a really big fan of Fabian's. He's certainly done a great deal of work over the years, and most of it has sold very well. Going over some of his stuff, it seems a little bit simplistic now, but his target audience was 13 to 16 year old boys, so I can't truly blame him. As for his response to WIR, it seems as though he's taking the easy way out. I did notice a couple of errors on the list. Some of the individuals listed have returned, and some of the information was incorrect (Karen Page was listed as being infected with HIV, which turned out to be either incorrect or inconclusive, we never got a straight answer on that).

Personally, I don't think that there's a disproportionate amount of female (I'm going to use a large blanket term to cover all of the types of horrors mentioned on the site) distress in comics. If there is, I'd attribute it to the following factors...

1.) Female characters traditionally do not sell as well as their male counterparts. There are, of course, exceptions to this rule, but it generally holds true. With that in mind, most comic book writers are willing to drop a load on someone who isn't a major selling point. This is especially the case in instances where the woman in question isn't the title character.

2.) Female characters share the same unfortunate position as young male sidekicks. The hero may be unassailable, but you can strike at him through those that he cares about. Since most superhero comics revolve around heterosexual men, the vast majority of those targets will be female romantic interests. If you look at superhero comics as the modern equivalent to ancient heroic myth, then there's a certain sort of sense to it. In virtually every culture, romance between mortal and deific beings is a bad idea (especially for the mortal, who very often meets an extremely messy end). The superhero comic extends this logic to its natural, modern conclusion. Hence, girlfriend in the fridge. As comics become more inclusive to the homosexual community (which is, slowly, happening), I think that writers will find plenty of opportunity to inflict similar punishments on male sexual partners. Of course, the "distress" rate for kid sidekicks may be even worse than that of romantic interests. Where's Bucky? Where's Jason Todd (Robin)? What's Speedy shooting into his arm? Kid sidekicks really get the short end of the stick, but bad things will traditionally happen to anyone who gets to close to a being on superhuman power.

3.) A lot of the female characters on that list deserved to be put there. No, not because of anything that they did (I'm not blaming the victim), but because they were poorly thought out and badly written. The original Batgirl was an embarrassment that arose from the "if something succeeds, make a million slightly altered carbon-copies of it" school of thought that gave birth to Krypto the Superdog and Beppo the Supermonkey. As Oracle, she's (barely) more interesting. Going over the list, I couldn't help but feel grateful that a lot of the listed characters were gone. My gratitude wasn't because of their gender, it was because of my low tolerance for lame, one-dimensional characters.

4.) Scarlett Witch, Crimson Fox, Mera and Fury II are all on the list for the loss of loved ones. Oddly enough, they're considered the victims, while, when the same thing occurs to a male superhero, it's that hero's loved one who is considered the victim of the kidnapping/murder/torture/etc. It appears to me as though there's a double standard here, although if there's something that I'm missing, I'd be interested in hearing what it is. It's also not noted on the list that Lyta Hall (Fury II) seems to have regained her sanity after killing off the title character of Sandman (although I doubt that she's any happier for it).

5.) Although I think that the "miscarriage" storyline is just a cheap way of getting quick sympathy for a character, it does make a certain sort of sense. Even under normal circumstances, miscarriages occur. When you add to this the amount of physical punishment that most heroic characters endure, exposure to radiation, and the stresses of interdimensional travel, a fetus seems to have little chance. Again, I think that it's sloppy storytelling, but I don't think that it reflects any sort of agenda against female characters (except, perhaps, the agenda of the natural world to allow only women to become pregnant).

6.) The inclusion of some of the characters on the list doesn't make any sense. Namorita being revealed as a clone and reverting to a more primal state, for instance, was most probably a way to make her character more distinct (and thereby more interesting) from her male counterpart. Threnody had a fatal disease when her character was introduced. In many ways, it was the focal point of her character, and her story wouldn't have made any sense without it. With that in mind, it's no surprise that she's dead.


I can think of a wide range of problems with the portrayals of women in the comics medium, but this "victims list" doesn't really reflect any of them. It would have been interesting to get a reaction to the list from Cerebus writer (and noted misogynist) Dave Sim, although I doubt that he would have responded. Likewise, I doubt that there’s much point in another female writer pointing out that Sim is a jerk, because it would be redundant.

I’ve severely cut down on the number of titles that I’ve read over the years, but I’m still into the medium. I highly recommend all of Alan Moore’s America’s Best Comics titles, especially Promethea and Top Ten. Also, if you get the chance, pick up 300 by Frank Miller, and Hellboy by Mike Mignolia. I can’t recommend them enough.

Thanks Mike, for this. I will look for those titles.

WRT Karen Page, I guess I didn't read my brother's
Kevin Smith "Daredevil" far enough to find out that
the HIV diagnosis was incorrect/inconclusive. :-)

- Josh


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I watched the first two episodes of Alias.

Josh, there's absolutely no reason for this show not to SUCK. In capital letters.

But it just doesn't!

The only thing cooler than cool stuff is cool stuff that really shouldn't be... you know... cool. And stuff.

Anyway, the point is that it rocks. Word.

just wanted to say "hey, whattup?"


so...yeah, dig it...

Hello Boys,
I finally decided to sign onto the board. And yes this is me not Josh stuck under my name.

Dave, I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed Alias, as a side note if my very pregnant co-worker has a girl she will name the baby Sydney.
Bob Mike, I hope that life is finding you well. We should get together for dinner or a Pearl Jam concert soon.
Jason, welcome to the family son.
Josh, I promise to sign off this time so you don't get stuck posting as me.
I look forward to adding my girlie touch to the discussions.
~Jenn

Yeah! A Jenni!

I'm throwing my $2.25 in here to let you know a couple comics series that are curently rocking.

100 Bullets: Is. The. Bomb. I know Jenni's got my back on this one. Brian Azzarello is the only person in the world who knows what's going on, but it still kicks ass.

Y- The Last Man: Is only two issues deep, but has incredible potential. Issue 1 was mind-blowingly good. And also has (literally) a world-full of powerful female characters. Don't think miscarriages are going to be much of an issue here.

Paul Pope's 100%: Three issues out of five complete. It's one of those situations... well, honestly, it just might suck. But it might rock as well. Anybody looked at this one?

and to fill it out with the mandatory costumed crime-fighter comic

Daredevil: currently being written by Brian "I've written every comic ever written ever" Bendis is finally sort of figuring itself out. It was bizarre between Kevin Smith's run and Bendis' beginning. The character Daredevil has barely been in it since Bendis took over, he's focusing on the Kingpin and various shit happening to him which is fine by me. I'm a sucker for the gangster epic.

Bob Mike, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Vol. 1 just had a Trade Paperback released. I know you recommended Alan Moore... should I go for it?

~Dave

Edited by author 09-12-2002 04:36 PM
Jenn,

Getting together? Sounds like a plan. Actually, it sounds exactly like the plan that Josh and I come up with every couple of months, but never follow through with. Maybe, without the constant distraction that is a Y chromosome getting in your way, you'll be able to come up with a better plan than we have.

Dave,

I'm throwing my $2.25 in here...

A fool and his money are soon parted.

100 Bullets: Is. The. Bomb. I know Jenni's got my back on this one. Brian Azzarello is the only person in the world who knows what's going on, but it still kicks ass.

There's a cute girl who works at Hi-De-Ho Comics in Santa Monica. Naturally, I buy everything that she suggests. I have all of the TPBs for 100 Bullets, and I haven't been disappointed with any of them. I wasn't so sure when it first started, but by the time I got to "Split Second Chance", I was fiending pretty badly. Since you're enjoying the series, I suggest that you pick up "Jonny Double", which is also by Azzarello. It's good stuff. His run at the helm of Hellblazer isn't anything to sneeze at, either.

Y- The Last Man: Is only two issues deep, but has incredible potential. Issue 1 was mind-blowingly good. And also has (literally) a world-full of powerful female characters. Don't think miscarriages are going to be much of an issue here.

I saw the ad for it, and I was curious. Since you're enjoying it, I'll probably pick up the TPB when it comes out.

Paul Pope's 100%: Three issues out of five complete. It's one of those situations... well, honestly, it just might suck. But it might rock as well. Anybody looked at this one?

I haven't seen it.

Daredevil: currently being written by Brian "I've written every comic ever written ever" Bendis is finally sort of figuring itself out. It was bizarre between Kevin Smith's run and Bendis' beginning. The character Daredevil has barely been in it since Bendis took over, he's focusing on the Kingpin and various shit happening to him which is fine by me. I'm a sucker for the gangster epic.

Plus, having David Mack around certainly didn't hurt the series.

Bob Mike, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Vol. 1 just had a Trade Paperback released. I know you recommended Alan Moore... should I go for it?

I just picked this up last night, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's not for everyone, though. Although I think that it's worth the read, I still vastly prefer Top 10.

As for other comics that I'm currently enjoying, you can't go wrong with Transmetropolitan, The Ultimates (which is probably the only Avengers related title that I'll ever admit to reading), or X-Statix (I'm a big Mike Alred freak).

By the way, Dave, since you read Smith's run on DD, did you read his Green Arrow stuff as well? I found it sort of disappointing, and some of it simply didn't make any sense. If you have any thoughts on the matter, I'd like to hear them.

Next on my list, I have to read You Are Here. Cute comic store chick has a weekly graphic novel book club, and that's on the plate for this week.

Later!

-BMH

Well, the link worked for a while. Not long enough, though.

Jenn,

Thanks...but uh...dont call me son.

Also, Dave was REALLY drunk the other night....you should have seen it...HILARIOUS....just kidding, but itd be funny. think about it.

Edited by author 09-13-2002 01:38 AM
Yes as Dave knows I am a lover of the 100 Bullets (sorry I did have to go out and get issue 38 on my own, it is Cole after all). It is gritty, sexy, complex, and demands your attention. It has false redemption, pure vengence, and no good guys only slightly less bad ones. They introduce characters for one story, that although they are never mentioned again, are always there in the back of your mind while reading the current issues. I've greatly enjoyed all but one story line and I think that the women in this series, both major players and minor side characters, are a fascinating bunch.

I also enjoy the Y the last man. I am interested to see how violence plays out in this story since it would almost entirely be done to women by other women. And I wouldn't rule out the miscarriage thing Dave, I think that pregnancy is going to play an important role in the story. If it continues to be written well miscarriage should be a part of some preganancies especially experimental ones.

As for Smith's Green Arrow stuff, which I think I read all of, I really liked the introduction of the "bad guy" who fights with a gun at the very end of his run with the series. I found him to be a truly frightening character. Now I have no history of Green Arrow and I've only read the issues that Smith wrote, but I do find it compelling, as Dave pointed out to me, to have Smith introduce a character with such a deep degree of evil, and then leave the story for another author to resolve.

~Jenn

Ack!

Pre-Pearl Jam album time... examining the titles... trying to figure out what they'll sound like... hoping against hope that maybe they'll, oh, I don't know... PRODUCE THIS ONE!!! At all!

I don't like the garage rock sound... I tend to think "Oh, that's nice, I can't wait for the album." The sample-track sound of Binaural was really off-putting to me. Not just in the quality (or lack thereof) of production, but even in the way the album was assembled... it sounds like shit that wouldn't fit into an album, so they just copied it all onto a disc. Ugh. I know there was some good on it... I just didn't care for it.

Just by the way, I still can't figure out why Blogger won't post to davidjmcgee.com. Until you come here, and hopefully I can coax you into taking a look at it, I've been posting elsewhere.

www.livejournal.com/users/davidjmcgee

Take a look there... I've actually been posting. As soon as I can, I'd love to move back over to the one I'm actually paying for. Check me out there for some stuff.

Hey, Jenni, Y- The Last Man 3 comes out tomorrow!!! :)

~Dave

Edited by author 09-17-2002 11:43 PM
I know, I agree about the production quality on "Binaural", as we have discussed before. I expect this one will be more produced than "Binaural", now that they have dropped Tchad Blake. The mixing will be done by Pearl Jam regular O'Brien, but the producer will be Adam Kasper. This suggests that the production might be fairly raw on this album: Kasper produced Soundgarden's "Down on the Upside", Cold's "Thirteen Ways to Bleed on Stage [sic]", and (notably) was assistant engineer on Nirvana's "In Utero" and PJ's "Vitalogy". All of these albums are fairly raw- and exciting-sounding, but (maybe excepting the spare Cold album) sonically quite full.

In anticipation of the single's release tomorrow I have been listening to the Bridge School Benefit performance of "I Am Mine" for much of the day on continuous loop (Dave - you have this?) What a great song. It contains some prize PJ lyrics:

I know that I was born and I know that I’ll die.
The in-between is mine. I am mine.

and

The sorrow grows bigger when the sorrow's denied.

I decided I'd learn how to play it tonight. I thought, listening to the song, that the intro is played with a sliding D shape, like the beginning of Candlebox's "He Calls Home". Turns out I am almost right; it's a modified sliding D shape. I always fool around with sliding D chord. There is also what sounds like a hammered-on D to Dsus transition, although this is not notated in the tablature I found; this is also very Josh. Plus, in the acoustic Bridge School version, there is an emphasized strumming technique employed in and after the bridge. These three elements make the song sound kind of like one that, you know, I would write. Except, you know, better.

Dave, regarding your website: are you getting the emails I send you? I sent you one a few days ago that probably fixes your problem. If not, give me a call.

By the way, does anyone know anything in regards to Eddie and the Supersuckers? For a while after the Supersuckers changed their name to E&tSS, it was rumored that the "Eddie" in question was Mr. Vedder. I heard one of their singles, and it sure as Hell sounded like him. Does anyone know the scoop?

-BMH

Edited by author 09-18-2002 02:31 PM
I looked them up on AMG. It looks like the Eddie is "Eddie Spaghetti", AKA "Eddie Supersucker". Gotta love the AMG summation:

Though those under-appreciative of the Supersuckers' Satan, Wild West, booze, and heroin imagery may rely on the grunge moniker to pinpoint the group's sound, the Supersuckers are a true power-chord driven punk band, albeit with a penchant for heavy metal posturing.

Mike: have you mentioned your LiveJournal before? I don't remember you ever mentioning it. A year and a half worth of posts to read!

- Josh