I'm happy to share my story.

It was August of 1986 and Missy and I met in Chicago to drive together to a small town in Wisconsin for our brother's wedding. I was driving, Missy was in the front with me, and my new sister-in-law's sister and her husband were riding in the backseat. As we left the city, the terrain in Wisconsin changed to beautiful country - over the hills and through the valleys with winding roads and lots of sunshine. We had just been driving through a wooded area and came up and over a hill to an opened area and a small river. We were on a two lane road with a two lane metal and concrete bridge ahead of us (as opposed to an old wooden bridge, not that it really matters, the important part is it's two lanes, period, with no emergency lane). On the other side of the bridge there was a semi about to cross the bridge coming toward us. No big deal as there was enough room for the two of us. As we drove down toward the bridge, another semi appeared and was in our lane, passing the first semi! We were already on the bridge and there was absolutely nowhere for us to go but forward……and ahead of us, on the bridge, were two semis, side by side! The next thing we knew, we were on the other side of the bridge. No one said a word for a few minutes. Then Missy said to me, "You weren't driving just now, were you?" - to which I replied, "No, I wasn't." We said it very calmly and in a matter-of-fact tone. I glanced in the rearview mirror and the looks on my passengers' faces made me pull over and ask if they were ok. To Missy and me, there was a "hiccup" in time, but to Becky and her husband, it was something altogether different - and to this day, they refuse to talk about it. So, the question remains, what happened??!!! Did we dissolve into particles of matter to pass through the trucks and then become solid again? Did an angel pick up the car and take us over the trucks? Did one of the semis disappear for a split second for us to pass? I have thought about that moment ever since and I cannot explain what happened. All I know is, I believe a higher power intervened in some way and saved us all, the truck drivers plus the four of us, from an early death.

I have always believed there is a reason for life and death. When we have accomplished that which we did not accomplish the first time around, we get more chances – yes, I’m talking about life after life. My belief is there are spirits/souls ready and willing to take on a human form, so when we were born, a spirit picked us because it knew what our life would be and knew our life would provide the next experience. This probably sounds crazy, and I’m very tired as it’s nearly 3am, but it makes sense to me. When we die, where does our spirit go? We were given a soul and then it dies along with our physical body, to then go to heaven? What is heaven? A place for millions of people to sit around on clouds….and do what all day? That seems like a waste of time, to do nothing. Would that mean then, that every single soul who has ever graced this planet has gone to either heaven or hell and just hangs out there? (Wherever and whatever “there” is). I don’t believe God would have created it that way. I apologize if I have over-stepped my boundaries to those of you who are devout Christians. I have a very difficult time believing the bible verbatim and understanding the meaning of death as written there.

More later, I need to get to bed – I just got home from a three-day visit with my friend in Las Vegas. I lived there 10 years ago and spent most of my time rock climbing and riding my bike in Red Rock Canyon – now there’s a place to feel God – it’s beautiful! We hiked there all weekend. Next time you’re in Vegas, skip the casinos and head west to the red rocks and Mount Charleston!

Rocky: I always think of you when I hear a song by Super Tramp! :)

Just popped in for a minute.....

Sue: that was quite a post you sent to Alex on 1/11. Is that why he has not come back?

Trish: Remember you well. Hope you are doing well. Do tell your story. I would love to hear it!

Edited by author 04-15-2002 05:59 PM
Tisha--Welcome to the discussion. That was a great opening post, and I certainly would enjoy hearing your testimony about the religious experience that saved your life. Hopefully, it will awaken some of our other readers from their hibernation.

Hello, everyone. Some of you may not remember me - I attended AHS for my senior year only, 1980. I appreciate your discussion and have read parts of your conversation since November 2001. Thank you for sharing so much, wow, you really lay it out there, so I’d like to share a few things, too.

Per your gym story written 12-29, Alex, what is a "Christian" supposed to look like?! That was an interesting comment. And forever I have heard the phrase "Fear the Lord" and to this day I can't imagine why anyone would want to say that. It is so manipulative. God is a loving God, so there's no reason to have fear. Perhaps people who use that phrase are fearful themselves and realize they have no control.

I’ve noticed referrals to what others have said/written about God, and your discussion has included intellectual wisdom vs. belief in that which cannot be physically seen. It’s wonderful to read, but what about what you feel in your own hearts? Forget about what others say, they are not you. The God we experience cannot be found by reading history books or reading the Bible for we can’t possibly begin to know what the author was feeling or thinking as the words were written. Who cares if you call yourself “born again” or an atheist, or any of the names given to organized religion. It makes sense to allow each person his own belief. Going to church and reading the Bible are some of the ways people live their lives - that's great! It gets them through every day and gives them hope. I don’t go to church and I don’t read the Bible, and I don’t even call myself a Christian, but I know with all my heart God exists. We have daily conversations and we're best buds! Missy and I are alive today because of the intervention of a higher power - there simply is no other reason and certainly no logical or scientific explanation. (I'm happy to tell you the story)

Is there a heaven and a hell? Is there life after death? How could we know, we aren’t dead yet! And is the Bible really the gospel truth? How do we know - because the Bible says so?! And how many times has the Bible been translated! Did you know there’s a bible written/translated specifically for the homosexual community? That’s really changing things – how do we know it hasn’t happened before, that someone wrote what they wanted to believe in and not what was supposed to have come from Jesus? (I have many homosexual friends, I'm referring simply to the fact that people are taking artistic license to re-write the Bible, and as the word of God, I would have expected it to remain sacred.) It has been translated so many times that many meanings are lost. You are all very intelligent and speak at least 2 languages – how many times have you been able to translate words verbatim from one language to another? If we all read the same poem, would we not each have our own interpretation? My belief is we all know the truth, intuitively.

P.S. Congrats to David and Jared for completing the marathon! I’m in training now for my first - Portland 2002, in September.

Edited by author 03-22-2002 09:13 PM
Jared (et al.)--let me get back to my original issue.

The Christianity I've been exposed to in recent years is of the southern Baptist tradition. As I understand things, life is a struggle between good and evil. The GOOD is represented by God and Christ, while the EVIL is represented by Satan.

However Satan might decide to spread his evil, I would presume that throughout history, horrible things would have occurred because of Satan's involvement. Some of these evil manifestations would certainly have resulted in violations of secular law, with criminal charges being levied against the humans involved.

Thus, it seems reasonable that "demonic possession" should be a common defense in criminal trials. If defendants and lawyers who are "Christians" really believe their faiths, it seems like a natural defense strategy.

But the devil is seldom mentioned in open court. Why not? Is this evil only imaginary? Is hell only used to scare little kids into believing in God?

I'll give you the Mormon perspective. Nobody should kill their children period. Chosing to kill your children will likely keep you from heaven. Nobody but God knows what was in Andrea Yates' heart and mind. God will be the ultimate judge.

The children will go to heaven because they can't be punished for the sins of their mother.

God isn't about reward or punishment so much as the natural consequences of behavior.

Since Andrea Yates will exist forever, part of her Hell could be living with the knowledge of what she did eternally.

Jared--I'm not saying that any religious groups advocate the murder of children. And I'm sure that ALL persons, religious or not, were sickened by what happened. But from the "christian" perspective, Andrea Yates' crimes will go without eternal consequences. Christians seem to agree that the Yates children are now in "heaven." And just yesterday, an aquaintence of mine (who is an ordained Baptist minister) told me that there is also a way for Andrea Yates herself to make it to "heaven." (I guess she has to do and say the right things for the remainder of her life.)

So while christians, AS MEN, may not approve of what happened, their theology ultimately offers no sure punishment. It may have been a crime against nature and a crime against the laws of man, but it apparently wasn't a crime against God.

Frank, I think you are stretching here.

It doesn't surprise me that there is little vocal support from religious groups for Andrea Yates. I doubt many religious groups would consider what she did a good thing. Most groups would be slow to condemn since it is very difficult to know what is in someone's heart or mind. I think most groups would leave ultimate judgment to God who would theoretically be able to know her heart and therefore make a fair judgment.
Just because many groups would believe that the children are in heaven now does not mean they support taking of children's lives.
I know of no religion that recommends killing children if they are not "coming out right".

It's really not so bad to be BANISHED to this site.

*****

Perhaps I've been looking at the wrong media, but I had really expected the Andrea Yates trial to have more of a "religious" flavor. Early in the trial there were references to her religious beliefs, but it seemed to have been forgotten by the end. I find myself puzzled by the lack of commentary coming from conservative religious types (I believe she was affiliated with the Southern Baptist faith).

Shouldn't she have gotten more support from the religious community? After all, from the perspective of believers, where are the Yates children now? They are in Heaven, of course. (Children get a special pass to Heaven.) So what's so bad about what their mother did to them? She sent them to Heaven. She said they were possessed. She was saving her children from the devil. How could a believer find fault with that? Why couldn't one individual detect the presence of the devil while others do not?

So what if her horrific act was a crime against nature, and clearly prohibitted by secular law? Wasn't she acting on her best understanding of her own religion? Where are the religious voices of support for her? Why aren't they there?

Edited by author 01-18-2002 09:03 PM
Alex--I am still looking for some clarification of the relationship between the compiling of the Bible, and the Roman Empire adopting Christianity as its state religion. I believe both events occured in the same era.

Sue, what I think is really mean spirited is to confuse a child with fantasy and reality. What is so wrong about telling the child the truth and yet allow it to be a fantasy, sort of like a play a long thing? Sort of on the lines of "No, Santa doesn't really exist, we just pretend that it exists so we can have fun and exchange gifts". Believe me, a child is going to trust you much more in later life if you do so.

Sue--That said about Alex, I still admire him for his willingness to engage the bunch of us atheists on this site. Certainly, he goes into great detail in his arguments, and displays a command of the world's religions and history. He even recently tried to prove something using DNA evidence, though that scientific tool may ultimately work against his cause.

"Santa Claus" keeps appearing here. To a child, belief in Santa and belief in Jesus have the same origin. Adults around the young child get excited about Santa and Jesus, so the child also gets excited. As the child gets older, he may realize that Reindeer can't fly, and that Santa couldn't possibly deliver all those toys to all the boys and girls in the world. Still, the child will probably believe in Santa until some adult confirms that Santa does not exist. With Jesus/God, the child may also have doubts, but rarely will an adult tell him that they do not exist, so he will likely go on believing.

Alex, did you ever consider that those whom you believe are recoiling from the name of Jesus are actually recoiling from you? I believe you are often unaware how arrogant and offensive you can be. What I recoil from is your narrow view and your complete and utter inability to see anything from any other perspective but your own.

Didar, if I had a child who found out from your daughter at age 4 that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, I would have been pissed! It's one thing if you didn't want her believing in such a fantasy, but it's downright mean-spirited to feel that she should have had the right to share that info with other kids. If you did not feel at 4 that she could have kept the secret, you should not have told her.

I shiver and sweat and cry each time I see the word Jesus! NOT!. Frankly, Alex, that is even funny. The reason we don't want to even talk about Jesus is because he has been dead for thousands of years. The bible makes no sense whatsoever and religion is a waste of time for many of us.

Alex, you guessed wrong that I am not a parent. I remember clearly when my daughter was four years old she got in trouble at the Kinder in the ASF for telling all the other little kids that Santa does not exist (I told her myself). Children are naturally truthtellers, but learn to tell lies as they grow older. Who do they learn from? From adults of course, specially adults who live in the fantasy of their religion. No wonder your kids lie all the time, Alex!

Religion is specially harmful for children because they "learn" not to trust their senses and to disregard reality by having it engrained into them the fantasy of heaven and hell, and the after life.

My friends, this whole argument shows your recoiling at the Name of Jesus! On my class site they want to hear as little as possible about Jesus, in your class site, many went silent and they finally expelled me from that domain for the Name of Jesus! In Pakistan the Lord had to send police with machine guns to surround the perimeter where I preached just so the Muslims wouldn't kill myself and those hearing about Jesus, in Sudan people are being enslaved and even crucified as we speak for the Name of Jesus, the Chinese have tortured and executed many for the Name of Jesus, in Southern Mexico missionaries were stoned for the Name of Jesus, in India missionaries were burnt alive for the Name of Jesus, in India the people who want me to come preach had one of their own killed and nine others hung by their toes for the Name of Jesus. No, my friends, the heart of sinful man recoils at the Name of Jesus.

Dave, I can tell you are not a parent.

Jared, of course you would not agree humans have an inbred evil nature, you are not a believer. The fact that children naturally tell lies and tell the truth to me, as a believer, is evidence of both the sinful nature and of the law of God written in the heart of man. The question boils down to, is God real? And if He is, is the Bible His Word? For many reasons, I know that He is real and that the Bible is His Word, you apparently will have to wait till a later time to find out, I pray its not too late when you do.

The experiences I shared involved people who were not sharing a spiritual experience with me, except the lady at the restaurant, of these people who felt the power of God, all were totally disconnected from me and ignorant of who I was and some were even hostile and threatening violence. This is very different from people sharing a spiritual experience. As to the experiences your Mormon friends and family have had, I would say again that experience is not the source or gauge of authority, the Bible is. If those experiences bring them closer to the God of the bible, to Jesus Christ of the Bible, I would say they are of God, if they take them away from the God and Jesus of the Bible, I would say they are not of God. Satan appears as an angel of light.

The Bible is a Jewish book, all of it. In fulfillment of prophecy most have been hardened to its message thus far, but in fulfillment of prophecy, more Jews are beginning to see that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. In the end "all Israel shall be saved". Why? The Scripture must be fulfilled.

Jared, all the people you mentioned can go to heaven if they will believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Frank, I will answer later, I gotta go help my wife with the kids!

Edited by author 01-06-2002 12:54 PM
Children will both naturally lie and naturally tell the truth. They will naturally obey and they will naturally disobey. In fact, I'll bet a child will natually both tell the truth and obey far more often than they will naturally lie or disobey.

Is it evil to lie? Is it evil to disobey? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

How do I look? You look great! Is it a lie? Sometimes it is, but is it evil? Not if the intent is to make someone feel happy.

You jump off this cliff right now! No I won't. Is this disobedience? Yes. Is it evil? No.

These natual tendencies don't tell us anyting about the good or evil nature of humans, but they do tell us something about humans. We are independent beings with free will. We all lie. Does it mean we're evil? No, it means that we don't feel obligated to disclose everything we know, it might not be in our own best interest. Disobedience just shows that we have free will and won't always do as we're told. Not necessarilly a bad thing.

Man's nature isn't fundmentally good or evil, it just is what it is. Most of our behaviors can be understood in terms of the need to survive as individuals, families, and as a species.

I also agree with David, I don't have any different reaction to the name Jesus or God, or Buddah, or Allah etc.

I have heard of countless experiences similar to those you have had Alex where two or more people share a spiritual experience. Most of the experiences I have heard of are from my close friends and family who are Mormons. Are my friends mistaken in their experiences or is it possible for Mormons to experience the "true" influence of God/Jesus?

The Jews rely on the Bible and study it in depth, yet the vast majority reject Jesus. If your faith is also based on reading the Bible how is it that you and the Jews come to such different conclusions?

One last question Alex, do you believe that members of the following groups can gain entry into Heaven by following their beliefs and if or not, in what order do you rank their beliefs in coming closest to truth?

Jew
Catholic
Muslim
Jehovah's Witnesse
Hindu
Budhist
Mormon
Methodist
Baptist
Presbetirian
Shintu
Sihk
Seventh Day Adventist
Christian Scientist
Scientologists
Agnostic
Atheist
Pentacostal
Assembly of God

I would also be intersted to know why each group either qualifies of doesn't qualify for Heaven and what makes each group earn its place in the rankings. I suspect it will be a pass/fail test but even it is, can you elaborate on the failings of each of these groups.