I am not student or devotee, but to the Supreme. In finding all that many faces can be attained in ones garden, all faces are mine even that of Sai Baba. If the world would waste more time, in the discovery of all the faces it carries, those hidden those shown to delight, the world would be a peaceful place for all faces. A person, creature or thing, even that beyond is far from wholeness till it where's all the faces to reach love. Between desires and temptation are the spoken words of hosted bodies that speak only what one wishes too attain. Humanity spend energy in your own discovery, rather in the discovery of any host of body or bodies, perhaps this garden of mine, will stand with good. All faces then could reach infinite peace here or beyond, your garden and your neighbors. Live your life, not desire anothers. If you belong not in a house whether it be Sai Baba or mine then find your house. Silence yourself, for in talking to much one takes the breath of a child being born. The energy one exalts to say non-good, is double the effort. For in saying nothing is something, to say to much is too be lost.

i have one question for "Sai Baba Exposed", why did u stop believing in baba? u must have a special reason... i was just curious but u dont have 2 answer it...

Edited by author 04-18-2006 10:33 AM
 from freestone the moderator...
 
04-15-2006 10:22 PM ET (US)
 [student said....]
i have one question for "Sai Baba Exposed", why did u stop believing in baba? u must have a special reason... i was just curious but u dont have 2 answer it...
---------------------------------------

freestone says......

from what I can tell, there might be two reasons, I see this a lot with baba and the devotees.
1...the devotee gets bothered by some seeming inconsisticies, but the devotee might not realize that baba is drawing from his own Spirit the info and baba might know much much more about it than the devotee!

2...more importantly, the kitten has got to be weaned! thus many devotees are baba-encouaged, by baba even "turning on the devotee" to make the devotee walk away and come back home and then to begin his life!
baba might have wanted to connect this devotee to the Spirit of baba, or the spirit of the Lord, within his heart, and then thus the outer baba should not be needed anymore! once you have that cell phone, the public phone booths are not now needed! so the pupil is encouraged to leave and if he does not get the message, baba might "force" him to leave by some "sex act" rumor appearing, or the like, so that this devotee might have to , say, return to america or england, marry, get a job, live his life with Spirit in his heart, even if it is with Jesus, not baba, as jesus is the 9th Avatar, and whther jesus or baba, the connection is to the Lord!

freestone

One cannot say "These people are criticising Sai Baba, they are scum, worthy only of Naraka (Hell)." Whilst many may wish this to be true, Sai Baba admonishes with love and enjoins with both the law of love and the law of karma. Hence, everyone gets back exactly what they give out.If any body abuses you, take no note, for the abuser is abusing only the body and not your Self. If somebody calls you a bad man, do you become a bad man by mere calling? If in fact, you have something bad in you, try to destroy it. There are a large number of people in this Kali Yuga who abuse God because their wishes are not fulfilled. This is a universal habit common to all countries. You should not succumb to such mean and unholy feelings. Thyagaraja, for example says, that God will manifest to you only to the extent and manner in which you approach God. Whichever way one conceives the Godhead, God appears to him in the same form. If your emotions are good, you get corresponding results.Hatred, jealousy and ostentation have become widespread these days. Get rid of these and get into the principle of love. Whether your desires are fulfilled or not, think that all that happens is good for your good. When you encounter difficulties, always think that better days are ahead. Good and bad are always mixed. Therefore, take both of them with the same attitude.

The person using the name "saibabaexposed" is none other than Sanjay Kishore Dadlani. Sanjay attempts to take a moral and ethical stance against Sathya Sai Baba and is the current mouthpiece for the Anti-Sai movement (receiving the full support and promotion from ALL Anti-Sai Sites).

What Sanjay does not say, however, is that he has been fully exposed for: 1) Pathological Lies; 2) Requesting Jesus, Disney and Biblical Pornography; 3) Creating a vulgar boot-fetish blog that exploited teenagers, women and female students, among many other things.

Such are the exposers of Sathya Sai Baba

Anti-Sai Campaign is a Farce
After three years and thousands of hours of research into the issues, I have come to the conclusion that the allegations against Sai Baba are more than highly suspicious to say the very least. None of the accusers have ever even tried to file charges in India as required by law. Instead they have played judge, jury and sentencer over the internet. They have contradicted themselves and changed their stories and have absolutely no corroborating witnesses or evidence. They have lied about signing legal affidavits which were notarized. It appears they have lied about Hari Sampath's supposed trip to the Supreme Court of India on May 8, 2001, which is not listed anywhere on the Supreme Court website.
Almost all accusers were grown men (foreigners) whom it appears the anti-Sai group used to try and create the illusion they were "children" who had been sexually abused when, in fact suspiciously, they were adults-some as old as 30 years! Almost all cases are now past the eight year Indian statute of limitations. Most of those pushing the allegations have hidden agendas such as being evangelical Christians, Catholics, anti-Semites and/or white supremacists or atheists! There are even wanted criminals in the group of detractors, including an evangelical Christian who runs a website from the Netherlands and is wanted in California for failing to register as a sex offender after spending six months in prison! If anyone should be investigated, it should be the hate group stalking Sathya Sai Baba.
And HOW many times will it have to be explained to the democratically, ethically and mentally challenged anti-Sai group that NO investigation is launched into any crime in ANY country UNLESS there is an actual victim, willing to take legal responsibility, who FILES FORMAL charges in the COUNTRY where the crime was committed? For some strange reason Robert Priddy, et al, seem to have great difficulty understanding this VERY simple concept of the presumption of innnocence but would rather continue to demonize the Indian government in their blatant and extremely deceptive propaganda campaign. Saisathyasai.com has done an excellent job documenting this deception.
The simple FACT is that not ONE of the alleged victims has filed charges in India. Not one of them EVEN tried to file charges! This nonaction is VERY suspicious in itself. But you cannot get the anti-Sais to understand this because they live in a fantasy world where they think they can make up the rules as they go.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Persecutors_...ba/?yguid=131958149

Lisa & Joe - Do you two twits have nothing better to do than to disturb Sai Baba discussion groups and plague them with irrelevant information? Try sticking to the topic and discuss/defend Sai Baba for once.


Arielle - Whereas you have a point, that logic does not work in the real world. If you know someone is a murderer and call them out, does that make you a murderer? If you know someone who beats up his wife, does that make you an abusive spouse? Similarly, where Sathya Sai Baba has been called into question over alleged homosexual paedophile activities, murders and other things, it is also a matter of growing concern that he has little or no spiritual authority either. In my view that is the most important thing; millions of people are being influenced to believe in somebody and live their lives according to the teachings of someone who is a sham and a fraud. If Sai Baba cannot even tell us the truth about his own "divinity", then how can you expect him to tell the truth about his criminal activities?


Student - I have written something on my blog about it, here:

Why I Left Sai Baba (In Brief)

Freestone -

1 I have no idea what you are referring to here.

2 If you read my blog link above, you'll find that despite vigorously and strenuously defending Sai Baba from paedophilia and murder allegations on an almost daily basis for a continuous period of ten months, I left Sai Baba of my own accord and had little or nothing to do with the sex allegations.

As I state very clearly on my blog: "I was a hardcore follower of Sathya Sai Baba for just over a decade, and made six trips to see him in India. Now no longer a devotee, I use this blog to record memories, comments and muses on the Sai scenario and also point out inaccuracies in Sai Baba's philosophical and theological presentation."

That's it in a nutshell. I was never "forced" to leave Sai Baba through his "intangible will" or anything like that, although I recognise your right to think differently. I left Sai Baba and realised his fraudulence through my own research of his teachings and philosophy. What he teaches and claims to have advented to uphold is not in line with the Vedantic and spiritual philosophy that he claims to espouse.

I think that it's very important to realise how much of a fraud Sai Baba is through his own sayings and doings. This is what I document in my blog. No amount of spiritual 'apologising' by his enamoured devotees can change the simple fact that he is not who he says he is.

Edited by author 04-27-2006 12:48 PM
Here's some examples of where I have documented my experiences:

Sai Youth - SEX - - (Update)

Sai Youth - DRUGS

Sai Youth - ROCK & ROLL

Sai Baba - A Whiff Of Fraud

"Sai Krishna" Lie Surfaces Again

Sai Baba's Hypnotic Sex Defence

German Woman Alleges Rape In Puttaparthi

Readers have the choice to believe what I have written or not. The point being is that not everything smells of roses in Sai Baba's garden. Sai Baba may have have a lot of positive factors about him and has done positive things, but it's about time due publicity was given to the increasing concerns that are growing larger and larger as time passes.

By the way, I am not the "current mouthpiece" of the "Anti-Sai Movement" as some people would like to think. I am a vocal critic and ex-devotee, that's it.

hi all. Time to post this URL again

http://www.saisathyasai.com/

his own purpose: to expose the "exposers of Sai baba!
in his words.....

[quote]
----Why is the purpose of this site?


On these pages, I document the shocking and very disturbing online behavior, attacks and smear campaigns waged by Anti-Sai Activists. These pages sum up my entire view about Anti-Sai Activists and how they are a mob of angry, vindictive and hateful individuals who place their own agenda of deceit and dishonesty above all else.

expose the lies, deceit, misrepresentations, conflations, exaggerations and contradictory allegations made against SSB by Anti-SSB Activists who disperse their propaganda on websites on the internet.
=========

If you are not a devotee, why did you create this website?

My Response: I believe the only type of person who can present a balanced view into the SSB debate is one who is extremely familiar with SSB but not to the extent of making excuses for SSB (as devotees generally do). As one will notice on my site, I provide links to all the articles I take issue with or discuss. I do not try to suppress other viewpoints. However, Anti-SSB Sites refuse to provide links to my site and have even banned my site from linking to them. I think this proves that Anti-SSB Sites have much to fear and operate on the premise of deceit, lies and suppression to promote their agenda of hate and propaganda at any cost
=============

Why would anyone want to lie about Sathya Sai Baba?

My Response: There are many people who would want to lie about Sathya Sai Baba. Click Here to read my article containing factual information regarding the Christian Anti-Sai/Hindu movement. The International Sai Organization is composed of millions of people and is seen as a direct threat by orthodox, evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. Christians were spreading Anti-Sai propaganda many years before the accusations that were later to be made public.
=============
[/quote]

You ought to have over an hour to read his site, there are a *lot* of stuff there: seems that he makes a case for that many of the baba critics
have terrible problems of their own, and that many of them lie and slander as they hate baba so much.

Many of the baba haters work as a "organized group" apparently, as they belong to fundamentalist Christian organizations!
[quote]

The Christian Anti-Sai/Hindu Movement

For several years, many people have claimed that there are Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christian movements against Sathya Sai Baba and Hinduism. Anti-Sai Activists have continually denied that such movements exist and have tried to dismiss these "rumors" as paranoia and excuses for Anti-Sai activity. However, Anti-Sai Activists have been wholly unconvincing considering that they have documented their efforts to polarize Christians, against the Indian Guru, on their own sites! The following is a list to Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christian sites, people and organizations that oppose Sathya Sai Baba and Hinduism:

http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.c...-sai-movements.html

[/quote]


freestone

Edited by author 04-28-2006 12:25 PM
Freestone,

I remember you from when you used to contribute to discussions in the Yahoo Groups. I have not seen you around until very recently by virtue of this forum.

I see that you have been easily led by this propaganda. I find it incredibly ironic that the owner of that website - while claiming to document the shocking and very disturbing online behavior, attacks and smear campaigns waged by Anti-Sai Activists [and] expose the lies, deceit, misrepresentations, conflations, exaggerations and contradictory allegations made against SSB by Anti-SSB Activists who disperse their propaganda on websites on the internet - completely ignores his own guilt of all those things and even more.

I have no need to mention more as Moreno's "concerns" may be fully addressed at an appropriate time. Suffice it to say that we have nothing to worry about considering the very sparse refutation of most of our claims, deflecting attention away from the issues surrounding Sathya Sai Baba to concentrate on other irrelevant things.


>> I believe the only type of person who can present a balanced view into the SSB debate is one who is extremely familiar with SSB but not to the extent of making excuses for SSB (as devotees generally do) ... I do not try to suppress other viewpoints. However, Anti-SSB Sites refuse to provide links to my site and have even banned my site from linking to them. I think this proves that Anti-SSB Sites have much to fear and operate on the premise of deceit, lies and suppression to promote their agenda of hate and propaganda at any cost. <<

It might interest you to know that whereas he claims not to be a devotee, he nevertheless acts as a devotee. He has a total of three pro-Sai sites, two of which include devotional content with pictures, biographies, and the like. The amount of time he spends defending an individual he claims not to believe in frankly makes him look a little silly. Suffice it to say, he has no need to make "excuses" for Sathya Sai Baba because he himself believes that Sai Baba has sexually abused men.

The old version of his page stated the following:

"I am not a Sathya Sai Baba devotee. Nevertheless, I have had many positive, powerful and spiritual experiences with SSB, as I have had with any other spiritual personalities. I do not belong to, go to, or affiliate myself with SSB Centers or the SSO."

The new page has a significant change:

"I am not a Sathya Sai Baba devotee. I was a devotee from the age of 18 to the age of 25. I had/have basic philosophical differences of opinion, with several aspects to SSB's teachings (in particular, God Concepts & Karma), and I left the Sai Movement for that reason. Nevertheless, I have had many beautiful, powerful and spiritual experiences with SSB, as I have had with many other spiritual personalities. My opinion about Sathya Sai Baba (based on my personal experiences with him) is positive. I do not belong to, go to, or affiliate myself with SSB Centers or the SSO. I am an open-minded (but not gullible) agnostic."

The reason he changed thus was because he was feeling the heat from people who were openly wondering why he has committed a significant amount of time and energy writing in defence of a troubled avatar who he does not believe in. It was a move to gain legitimacy for his viewpoint by claiming that he has a reason for investment. Even then he fails, as his current activity does not represent his current beliefs about Sai Baba.


And as for claiming that anti-Sai sites have banned him from linking to their websites, this is an exposed lie. A short while ago Moreno tried to come up with a fancy explanation about htaccess files and how ExBaba was using one against him. Just a tiny problem, Exbaba has never employed any htaccess files or other such things against him. No anti-Sai site has banned Gerald Moreno from linking to their site. I have consulted with the technical operative behind these sites and they have all confirmed that they have never banned Moreno.

There are also incidences of Moreno's displaying unclickable links to other anti-Sai sites such as Conny Larsson's site and my blog. Neither of these sites have blocked Moreno yet he still displays unclickable links to these sites claiming that he is blocked from linking to them. This lie has been in effect since December 2004 and this means that Moreno has been lying about this issue since that time.


>> Many of the baba haters work as a "organized group" apparently, as they belong to fundamentalist Christian organizations! <<

There is no "organised group", and neither do Expose Activists belong to Fundamentalist Christian organisations. Whereas it may be so that some activists are of the Christian religion, does this necessarily mean that there is collusion or affiliation with any organisation with an agenda? Can't it be possible for ex-devotees to be "normal" Christians? This itself is a very popular lie amongst Sai Baba defenders, who have exposed themselves as clowns in a most ridiculous manner. Do you seriously believe that, for example, a Muslim who was educated in a school with a Christian vision becomes a Fundamentalist Christian?

In many ways this site contains false, malicious and defamatory content which will be exposed in the future, so I have nothing more to say except to tell you not to believe everything that you read. I have already written way more than I intended to write and have nothing more to say except to leave it for the future. I suspect that either Moreno or De Witt may respond to this but I will not be replying except to discuss Sathya Sai Baba, "Who is he?"

I'm also highly disappointed that you clearly have nothing to say regarding my points of view, and are simply indulging in the spread of malicious and hateful propaganda instead. I thought that this forum was a place to discuss "Who is Sathya Sai Baba?", but clearly I was wrong. But as I said earlier, nothing can distract from the fact that not everything smells of roses in Sai Baba's garden and no amount of 'apologising' for Sai Baba by his enamoured devotees can change the simple fact that he is not who he says he is. People can say anything they like about ex-devotees because they have very little to say in Sai Baba's defence.

well, maybe it is time for me to take off a layer of "gloves" and write a bit about myself!

I essentually side with both sides of the baba controversy! I began this
forum mostly to feel out what people today think and feel about baba.

the "real" baba forums seem to be filled with young devotees that are as fervently pro-baba that they are as "fundamentalist" as any chrasmic christian at their worst! they do not wanna hear a bit about their god
might also have a bowel movement once a day or so!! kill ya for mentioning anything anti-baba.

and the anti-baba people often are so full of anger, even if rightiously so.

me?
I would not go to India of my own free will, I cannot even go to church comfortably, here in America! I do not believe in Gurus or people who tell you how to live your life.

in fact, my own philosophy runs a bit like this: how in heaven or hell's name can you become saved unless there is a you there to become saved with?! how can you transcend your ego unless you first have an ego?!

gotta do the steps, miss one, in the child-development series [pegout[sp]], and you never catch up! most of us *think* we have an ego, but often this "ego" is only made up of other people's stuff that you ate and never did chew: swallow whole! often "you" is composed of your family, your small town, your peer group, your country, your race, and NONE of it might be yours!

the closests belief system that i can feel for is the SET group.
http://www.xeper.org/
and a disciple says....essentually that the Set people are to become Themselves, to be an individual and to Wake Up.
http://www.balanone.info/tosintw2.html
more info.

One of my many hobbies is to try to figure out the motivations of people and to see how and why people follow masters and cults.

I am finding reality to be a strange and sticky thing, as i get ever the older.


I have heard so so many "horror stories" about church politics, fundamentalist religion absolutes, slavish devotion of people to cults east and west, that I plan, in my few years left to me, to make sure that
I stay far far away!

the oringinal sin.....as i see it...is that people pass their shit to thier kids and then they kids grow up and pass it on to theirs!
i read that 80% of battered kids will grow up to batter their kids!!
[nievely i would have thought the opposite!!]
probably many of the baba devoteess and the anti-devotees have had terrible childhoods!

the Bible says that all of us have sinned, the reincanationalists feel that everyone on the planet has murdered someone, in some life, thus
every single one of us has feet *and* legs of CLAY!
i probably, in my mind at least, have committed nearly every single sin in the book!

so i am not a devotee of baba. i just started this forum, as i say above, to get a "core sample" of the present day feelings pro and con about baba.

I once, at a university town, went to a baba group meeting only to incur the authoitativeness of the leader, a apparently typical Indian man who was
very powerful and overbearing, not to my taste at all. end of that.

thus i like individualism.

freestone

I'll aptly note that despite Sanjay Dadlani's accusations of "malicious and defamatory content" on my site, he does not cite the pages or provides any links to examples of such.

Regarding the assocation of the ex-baba administration with fundamentalist Christians, the ex-baba site recently posted a full sized banner to a fundamentalist Christian site on ALL their main pages and quickly removed them after I commented on them: See for yourself.

Far be it for Sanjay (the pervert who went around stalking innocent women and posted his boot-fetish pics on his StreetBitches blog) to point his pudgy Hare Krsna fingers at me and say that I do not provide links to his blog after he deleted my message from his blog saying he does not approve of people advertising their sites on his blog. Take a look at his blog and all Sanjay does is advertise Anti-Sai Sites! Why doesn't Sanjay provide clickable links to my site and to the articles he dissents with? Why doesn't Conny Larsson provide clickable links to my site? Hypocrisy clear and simple.

There is no reasoning with a self-professed drunk and a pathological liar. Period. End of discussion.

Sanjay can spew his toxic waste as a distraction until he is a curmudgeon as old as Priddy, O'Clery, Larsson, et al but the simple fact of the matter is that the anti-Sais have ZERO credibility. Why? Because even though they claim to have "hundreds" (O'Clery claimed thousands) of alleged sexual abuse victims, they cannot come up with even ONE credible corroborative witness. NOT ONE! The only alleged victim who claims to have told someone he was molested by Sai Baba directly after he came out of the interview room was Keith Ord who was in his mid-twenties at the time (1990). Alexandra Nagel claims he told her, yet Ord does not even mention Nagel in his online statement. And Nagel refers to Keith as "K" in her diary as if she is trying to hide Keith's identity for some reason. And making matters even more dubious, it turns out that Joe Moreno was at the ashram at the same time Keith alleges he was mishandled by Sai Baba and talked to Keith in depth about his interviews. During those discussions, Joe says Keith did not mention anything about being molested. In 1993, Keith Ord did an interview with a Dutch journalist (article posted on exbaba.com Dutch site) and told him Sai Baba's genitalia morphed supernaturally from male to female!

Yet the anti-Sais still insist to this day that Keith Ord and all alleged victims are "credible," even though their stories are riddled with these kinds of contradictions.
Yes, in EVERY case that I have researched I have found these type of story anomalies. It is as if each alleged victim is dangling a carrot in front of you saying, "Believe me because I am a "victim," yet they cannot come anywhere near providing any proof. Nor will they file charges in India. Most are past the statute of limitations anyway so they have an easy out as an excuse. But the only two accusers within the statute of limitations refuse to file criminal charges. This would also be because they do not have ONE credible corroborative witness and their accusations and actions after alleged crime are riddled with contradictions which do not make sense and they know it.

Khorramshagol even offered me $1000 to go to India and file charges for him! Apparently he did not care to consult with a lawyer long enough to find out his 1993 accusations were long past the statute of limitations. I guess he thought he had infinite time to file charges and could even send a surrogate to take his deposition! Khorramshahgol (who was 19 at the time he alleges the misconduct) like most alleged victims cared so little about their "trauma", they did not even bother to consult with a lawyer to find out what their rights and legal obligations were as a victim. I must point out here that Khorramshahgol states very clearly in his online statement that he did not realize until over six months after his interview with Sai Baba that he was sexually abused. In fact, he claims he only realized it after seeing a video of one of Sai Baba's materializations which allegedly showed Baba cheating that made him realize Baba's heavy breathing and supposed groping of his male parts were sexual in nature. Khorramshahgol is another one who cannot come up with ONE corroborative witness who can verify his claims. As a sexual abuse victim myself (at the age of 13), I find it extremely hard to believe that Khorramshahgol did not realze he was being sexually groped at the time of his interview as he alleges.

Suffice it to say, all of the claims I have examined are more than dubious and, in my opinion, point to either many accusers who think they were going to hit the jackpot similar to the Catholic cases, or there is an orchestrated campaign being funded by some as yet unknown group or groups who feel threatened by Sai Baba's enormous influence.