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Topic: Sathya Sai Baba 2005: Who Is He?
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CO2000Person was signed in when posted  2878
03-26-2007 11:21 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 03-11-2008 07:07 AM
/m2871 Page not found. Maybe they are taking away your binky usedcrybaby because they are realizing you are all a bunch of big babies lying to get attention and/or money.



Persecutors of Sathya Sai Baba
CO2000Person was signed in when posted  2877
03-26-2007 11:05 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 04-21-2007 04:21 AM
/m2872 Documenting usedbybaba posting fraudulently as Angelic.


CELEBRITY CYBER-STALKING BY USEDBYBABA AND TONY O'CLERY

For several YEARS Usedbybaba (IP
202.43.218.166, 221.134.12.138 and 59.92.1.126) has been using NUMEROUS false and anonymous names in a determined effort to falsely paint a picture of accusations of sexual abuse against Sai Baba by persons who do NOT even exist. Not only has Usedbybaba engaged in such behavior, he has also harassed devotees using fraudulent posts, obscene language, intimidation and threats which continue to this day. All this done while cowardly hiding behind anonymous names. It's about time law enforcement investigates and removes this public nuisance, Usedbybaba from the internet as his agenda is to incite violence against innocent people, specifically Sai Baba and his devotees.

Along with Usedbybaba, Tony O'Clery of Vancouver Canada should also be investigated for similar tactics (including extremely perverse and obscene language and creations of false stories about Sai Baba) in addition to his connections to neo-nazi and white supremacist groups. Even though Tony O'Clery claims he was a Sai devotee until the end of 1999, one witness in 2001 says of O'Clery, "...he has been spreading such rumours for many years and then the next thing you see he is attending a Sai Centre and singing bhajans."

As a result of these types of tactics by Usedbybaba and O'Clery, they have attracted numerous psychologically unstable people who have also begun to create false stories on the internet, targeting Sai Baba and his devotees.
This destructive collective behavior is now well-documented at saisathyasai.com as well as sai-fi.net. Several of these people appear to have connections to neo-nazi groups and/or religiously intolerant atheists or evangelicals.

In March of 2006 Tony O'Clery made posts under the username dingopl, pretending to be someone named "Paul" and tried to set up a meeting with a Sai devotee in the UK named Simon. I wrote Simon telling him the IP address for Paul was the same as Tony O'Clery's and not to trust him.

The next month, in April Tony O'Clery left a post on the SSB2 message board saying he was visiting Ireland and the UK. One does wonder what nefarious purposes Tony wanted to meet with Simon under an assumed name. This is not the first time anti-Sais have tried to lure devotees into a trap. They tried something similar with me.


Shocking Behavior from Ex-Devotees on the Quicktopic Board


Tony O'Clery Vandalises Wikipedia with His Libelous and Perverted Comments

Tony O'Clery, who has an account at Wikipedia under the name aoclery, added the following libelous comments to the article about Sathya Sai Baba. He attempted to hide his identity by not signing in to his account.

"He also admits to pedophilia but says that as he is
God they are paying off their karma quickly."



After confronting Tony with his libelous vandalism, he does it again!


"...he also says his pedophilia is good for they pay the karma off quicker as he is god..."

Tony also vandalises the Benjamin Creme article:

"He also says it is true that sai baba is a pedophile but that he is paying off people's karma quicker, by assaulting them as he is God."

Someone reverts Tony's vandalism and Tony comes back and does it again:

"He also says it is true that sai baba is a pedophile but that he is paying off people's karma quicker, by assaulting them as he is God, according to top officials in the sai org. "




Tony even confesses:

2856 Tony O'Clery 03-24-2007 07:40 PM ET (US)
I have put that comment on every article referring to sb in wikipedia,,go find them fill your boots.

sb org says he molests as god curing karma.

 
Cornered like a rat, Tony tries a new lie:

"A former official of the sai organisation, Tony O'Clery, has stated that they were told to state that the sexual touching and pedophilia were to help with the subjects karma, as Sai Baba was 'God'."


Tony's entry is reverted and he brazenly comes back and does it again:

"A former official of the sai organisation, Tony O'Clery, has stated that they were told to state that the sexual touching and pedophilia were to help with the subjects karma, as Sai Baba was 'God'. O'Clery also states that as an official he was one of the first to claim sexual touching was raising kundalini, which of course isn't true. "

Then Tony proceeds to start an edit war, even admitting he was the one who invented the Kundalini lie to begin with:

"A former official of the sai organisation, Tony O'Clery, has stated that they were told to state that the sexual touching and pedophilia were to help with the subjects' karma, as Sai Baba was 'God'. O'Clery also states that as an official he was one of the first to claim sexual touching was raising kundalini, which of course isn't true.iN fact I was the official who invented the claim that the molesting was raising kundalini, and I sincerely apologise and regret this lie."


Tony also vandalises the Prema Sai Baba article:

"A former official of the sai organisation, Tony O'Clery, has stated that they were told to state that the sexual touching and pedophilia were to help with the subjects' karma, as Sai Baba was 'God'. O'Clery also states that as an official he was one of the first to claim sexual touching was raising kundalini, which of course isn't true.In fact he was the official who invented the claim that the molesting was raising kundalini, and he sincerely apologises and regrets this lie."


True to form, after being blocked, Tony belligerently threatens to come back and do it again:

"Blocking me is like Canute blocking the waves, there are many others to help and I will be back. Truth will out in the end, even in face of the gay-pedophile-groupies, and their pro sai propaganda...Tony."





Whois

24.207.24.230 = [ h24-207-24-230.dlt.dccnet.com ]


(Asked whois.arin.net:43 about +24.207.24.230)

 OrgName: Delta Cable Communications Ltd.
 OrgID: DLTA
 Address: 5381 48th Ave.
 City: Delta
 StateProv: BC
 PostalCode: V4K-1W7
 Country: CA
 NetRange: 24.207.0.0 - 24.207.127.255


Maybe it's about time someone used these guys to perform a celebrity threat assessment.


SEC. 223. [47 U.S.C. 223] OBSCENE OR HARASSING TELEPHONE
CALLS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA OR IN INTERSTATE OR
FOREIGN COMMUNICATIONS.

(a) Whoever–
(1) in interstate or foreign communications–
(A) by means of a telecommunications device knowingly–
(i) makes, creates, or solicits, and
(ii) initiates the transmission of,
any comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image, or
other communication which is obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or
indecent, with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass another
person;
(B) by means of a telecommunications device knowingly–
(i) makes, creates, or solicits, and
(ii) initiates the transmission of,
any comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image, or
other communication which is obscene or indecent, knowing that
the recipient of the communication is under 18 years of age,
regardless of whether the maker of such communication placed the
call or initiated the communication;
(C) makes a telephone call or utilizes a telecommunications
device, whether or not conversation or communication ensues,
without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse,
threaten, or harass any person at the called number or who receives
the communications;
(D) makes or causes the telephone of another repeatedly or
continuously to ring, with intent to harass any person at the called
number; or
(E) makes repeated telephone calls or repeatedly initiates
communication with a telecommunications device, during which conversation or communication ensues, solely to harass any person
at the called number or who receives the communication"



/m2595

Usedbybaba threatens violence if he is investigated.
If the bozo has nothing to hide, why is he threatening violence?
And the murders of Sai Baba's assistants at the ashram were June 6th. Just one more clue you are a fraud who has never even seen Sai Baba. No devotee who supposedly lived at the ashram would EVER forget that date. EVER.


"YOUR CHEAP TRICKS WON'T WORK.NONE OF US WILL LEAVE. THE PROBLEM IS BABA WILL ALSO BE IN TROUBLE.IF YOU TRY TO GO DEEPER INTO OUR LIVES.IT WILL BE ANOTHER JUNE 3RD."--usedbybaba



This page will show the documentation of usedbybaba aka usedcrybaby's trail of cyber-stalking activity:


USEDBYBABA EXPOSED EXPOSED EXPOSED ANONYMOUS WHACKO ATTACKING SAI BABA



"You are right you will have to forgive my unsophistication. You see before I had any tertiary edu, I was a construction worker, cane-cutter, australian gigolo, union man, and surfer. Heaven for me was 'surfs up', and 'out the back', on Aussie beaches."--Tony O'Clery
CO2000Person was signed in when posted  2876
03-26-2007 11:02 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 03-26-2007 11:08 PM
/m2875

Tony is a wackjob just like usedbybaba. One does have to ask WHY there are so many mental cases in the anti-Sai group. They seem to be wackomagnets who enable each others sickness and lies.
Joe108Person was signed in when posted  2875
03-26-2007 03:46 PM ET (US)
Tony O'Clery thinks everyone with a favorable view on Sathya Sai Baba is "gay", a "pedophile" and belong to "gay pedophile rings", etc.

These are the paranoid, mentally-unstable and conspiratorial people who form the Anti-Sai Movement. Enough said.

AngelicPerson was signed in when posted  2874
03-26-2007 01:46 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 03-26-2007 05:20 PM
/m2757 'usedbybaba' a creation of Lisa and Joe to confuse people and make money from Baba
__________________________
so ,ubb,what you're saying is (you)usedbybaba is a fake and everything written under that name is fake too?
Oh,OK.
Tony O'Clery  2873
03-26-2007 11:24 AM ET (US)
Namaste,

Simon Brace the apologist for Peter Townsend, ben creme and sb, lisa de witt, and joe moreno, are all apologists for gay-pedophiles leading them up is sb.
One year in the group I went to pn from Australia, there were there cross-dressers gays, who were going to pn for they believed sb was the gay-avatar and hermaphrodite. The office at pn mixed them in with the females from the group, even though they were in need of a shave. I wondered but now I know the office was full of gay-pedophiles from the sb pn ring....Tony.
Angelic  2872
03-26-2007 07:35 AM ET (US)
Edited by author 03-26-2007 07:36 AM

Exposed Exposed


No need to up date.Angel(ena) JOELISA have nothing else to say except repeating the same thing again and again
These messages will show what a fraud Joe,Angel and His friend Lisa are.
/m2757 'usedbybaba' a creation of Lisa and Joe to confuse people and make money from Baba
/m2756 Lisa writing in usedbybaba and Simon's names
/m2647 Former student victims cry for help and want Baba to be investigated
/m2692 -Cover up by Baba and his goons
/m2442 Angel wants no one to talk against his GOD BABA
/m2436
Lisa says that there are power brokers in India who can get Baba arrested (so I say ordinary citizens cannot and she is agreeing
/m2115 Angel confesses that he is neither a male nor a female
/m2047 /m2086 Angel and Lisa try to mislead people by twisting my words.
/m2036-- Miracles.Are they really true.I don't believe it.
/m2002 /m2007 /m2015 /m2529 /m2532 -

Joe and Lisa agree that Baba is a molester


/m1988-Lisa proves she is stupid again
/m1921- Lisa the Goebbels
/m1743 – Joe’s so called “usedbybaba exposed” and My reply
/m1760—joe’s love for biker babies
/m1759 /m2597
joe tries his trick on what Veer Sangvi wrote in Hindustan Times
/m1748 – coo2 is put on truth serum
/m1746- proof that Lisa cannot discuss but only abuse
/m1719—Real meaning of WATCH – watch your words etc.,
/m1713 – SB on truth serum
/m1710 – SB on truth serum again
/m1706 – SB’s Advice to Lisa, When he was intoxicated
/m1702 – SB notices Lisa trying to find out about usedbybaba
/m1696 – Present Warden of Prashantinilayam(was also molested)
/m1695- SB if is put on truth serum

/m2002 /m2007 /m2015 /m2529 /m2532 -

Joe and Lisa agree that Baba is a molester


 

For several YEARS CO2000

(IP
202.43.218.166, 221.134.12.138 , 59.92.1.126 223.56.14.145 123.34.277.176 171.77.243.177 123.34.524.43, 213.12.345.34 and many more .) has been using NUMEROUS false and anonymous names in a determined effort to paint a picture of Divinity to the sexual abuser Sai Baba by persons who do NOT even exist. Not only has CO2000 engaged in such behavior, it has also harassed non devotees using fraudulent posts, obscene language, intimidation and threats which continue to this day

SEC. 223. [47 U.S.C. 223] OBSCENE OR HARASSING TELEPHONE
CALLS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA OR IN INTERSTATE OR
FOREIGN COMMUNICATIONS.
(a) Whoever–
(1) in interstate or foreign communications–
(A) by means of a telecommunications device knowingly–
(i) makes, creates, or solicits, and
(ii) initiates the transmission of,
any comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image, or
other communication which is obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or
indecent, with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass another
person;
(B) by means of a telecommunications device knowingly–
(i) makes, creates, or solicits, and
(ii) initiates the transmission of,
any comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image, or
other communication which is obscene or indecent, knowing that
the recipient of the communication is under 18 years of age,
regardless of whether the maker of such communication placed the
call or initiated the communication;
(C) makes a telephone call or utilizes a telecommunications
device, whether or not conversation or communication ensues,
without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse,
threaten, or harass any person at the called number or who receives
the communications;
(D) makes or causes the telephone of another repeatedly or
continuously to ring, with intent to harass any person at the called
number; or
(E) makes repeated telephone calls or repeatedly initiates
communication with a telecommunications device, during which
conversation or communication ensues, solely to harass any person
at the called number or who receives the communication"



 
Let me tell you how Lisa, Baba and Joe are related. Joe is Lisa's father
born to Sai mother.But Sai father had purified her and she became a mother.
So Sai Baba became her mother and father and husband.Now Joe jumped in the middle and tried his luck in purifying Baba and together they purified each other. Now all three of them are trying to purify others.
Angelic  2871
03-26-2007 07:30 AM ET (US)
CO2000Person was signed in when posted  2870
03-25-2007 04:27 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 04-21-2007 04:18 AM
CELEBRITY CYBER-STALKING BY USEDBYBABA AND TONY O'CLERY

For several YEARS Usedbybaba (IP
202.43.218.166, 221.134.12.138 and 59.92.1.126) has been using NUMEROUS false and anonymous names in a determined effort to falsely paint a picture of accusations of sexual abuse against Sai Baba by persons who do NOT even exist. Not only has Usedbybaba engaged in such behavior, he has also harassed devotees using fraudulent posts, obscene language, intimidation and threats which continue to this day. All this done while cowardly hiding behind anonymous names. It's about time law enforcement investigates and removes this public nuisance, Usedbybaba from the internet as his agenda is to incite violence against innocent people, specifically Sai Baba and his devotees.

Along with Usedbybaba, Tony O'Clery of Vancouver Canada should also be investigated for similar tactics (including extremely perverse and obscene language and creations of false stories about Sai Baba) in addition to his connections to neo-nazi and white supremacist groups. Even though Tony O'Clery claims he was a Sai devotee until the end of 1999, one witness in 2001 says of O'Clery, "...he has been spreading such rumours for many years and then the next thing you see he is attending a Sai Centre and singing bhajans."

As a result of these types of tactics by Usedbybaba and O'Clery, they have attracted numerous psychologically unstable people who have also begun to create false stories on the internet, targeting Sai Baba and his devotees.
This destructive collective behavior is now well-documented at saisathyasai.com as well as sai-fi.net. Several of these people appear to have connections to neo-nazi groups and/or religiously intolerant atheists or evangelicals.

In March of 2006 Tony O'Clery made posts under the username dingopl, pretending to be someone named "Paul" and tried to set up a meeting with a Sai devotee in the UK named Simon. I wrote Simon telling him the IP address for Paul was the same as Tony O'Clery's and not to trust him.

The next month, in April Tony O'Clery left a post on the SSB2 message board saying he was visiting Ireland and the UK. One does wonder what nefarious purposes Tony wanted to meet with Simon under an assumed name. This is not the first time anti-Sais have tried to lure devotees into a trap. They tried something similar with me.


Shocking Behavior from Ex-Devotees on the Quicktopic Board



Tony O'Clery Vandalises Wikipedia with His Libelous and Perverted Comments

Tony O'Clery, who has an account at Wikipedia under the name aoclery, added the following libelous comments to the article about Sathya Sai Baba. He attempted to hide his identity by not signing in to his account.

"He also admits to pedophilia but says that as he is
God they are paying off their karma quickly."



After confronting Tony with his libelous vandalism, he does it again!


"...he also says his pedophilia is good for they pay the karma off quicker as he is god..."

Tony also vandalises the Benjamin Creme article:

"He also says it is true that sai baba is a pedophile but that he is paying off people's karma quicker, by assaulting them as he is God."

Someone reverts Tony's vandalism and Tony comes back and does it again:

"He also says it is true that sai baba is a pedophile but that he is paying off people's karma quicker, by assaulting them as he is God, according to top officials in the sai org. "




Tony even confesses:

2856 Tony O'Clery 03-24-2007 07:40 PM ET (US)
I have put that comment on every article referring to sb in wikipedia,,go find them fill your boots.

sb org says he molests as god curing karma.

 

Cornered like a rat, Tony tries a new lie:

"A former official of the sai organisation, Tony O'Clery, has stated that they were told to state that the sexual touching and pedophilia were to help with the subjects karma, as Sai Baba was 'God'."


Tony's entry is reverted and he brazenly comes back and does it again:

"A former official of the sai organisation, Tony O'Clery, has stated that they were told to state that the sexual touching and pedophilia were to help with the subjects karma, as Sai Baba was 'God'. O'Clery also states that as an official he was one of the first to claim sexual touching was raising kundalini, which of course isn't true. "

Then Tony proceeds to start an edit war, even admitting he was the one who invented the Kundalini lie to begin with:

"A former official of the sai organisation, Tony O'Clery, has stated that they were told to state that the sexual touching and pedophilia were to help with the subjects' karma, as Sai Baba was 'God'. O'Clery also states that as an official he was one of the first to claim sexual touching was raising kundalini, which of course isn't true.iN fact I was the official who invented the claim that the molesting was raising kundalini, and I sincerely apologise and regret this lie."


Tony also vandalises the Prema Sai Baba article:

"A former official of the sai organisation, Tony O'Clery, has stated that they were told to state that the sexual touching and pedophilia were to help with the subjects' karma, as Sai Baba was 'God'. O'Clery also states that as an official he was one of the first to claim sexual touching was raising kundalini, which of course isn't true.In fact he was the official who invented the claim that the molesting was raising kundalini, and he sincerely apologises and regrets this lie."


True to form, after being blocked, Tony belligerently threatens to come back and do it again:

"Blocking me is like Canute blocking the waves, there are many others to help and I will be back. Truth will out in the end, even in face of the gay-pedophile-groupies, and their pro sai propaganda...Tony."






Whois

24.207.24.230 = [ h24-207-24-230.dlt.dccnet.com ]


(Asked whois.arin.net:43 about +24.207.24.230)

 OrgName: Delta Cable Communications Ltd.
 OrgID: DLTA
 Address: 5381 48th Ave.
 City: Delta
 StateProv: BC
 PostalCode: V4K-1W7
 Country: CA
 NetRange: 24.207.0.0 - 24.207.127.255


Maybe it's about time someone used these guys to perform a celebrity threat assessment.


SEC. 223. [47 U.S.C. 223] OBSCENE OR HARASSING TELEPHONE
CALLS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA OR IN INTERSTATE OR
FOREIGN COMMUNICATIONS.

(a) Whoever–
(1) in interstate or foreign communications–
(A) by means of a telecommunications device knowingly–
(i) makes, creates, or solicits, and
(ii) initiates the transmission of,
any comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image, or
other communication which is obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or
indecent, with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass another
person;
(B) by means of a telecommunications device knowingly–
(i) makes, creates, or solicits, and
(ii) initiates the transmission of,
any comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image, or
other communication which is obscene or indecent, knowing that
the recipient of the communication is under 18 years of age,
regardless of whether the maker of such communication placed the
call or initiated the communication;
(C) makes a telephone call or utilizes a telecommunications
device, whether or not conversation or communication ensues,
without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse,
threaten, or harass any person at the called number or who receives
the communications;
(D) makes or causes the telephone of another repeatedly or
continuously to ring, with intent to harass any person at the called
number; or
(E) makes repeated telephone calls or repeatedly initiates
communication with a telecommunications device, during which conversation or communication ensues, solely to harass any person
at the called number or who receives the communication"



/m2595

Usedbybaba threatens violence if he is investigated.
If the bozo has nothing to hide, why is he threatening violence?
And the murders of Sai Baba's assistants at the ashram were June 6th. Just one more clue you are a fraud who has never even seen Sai Baba. No devotee who supposedly lived at the ashram would EVER forget that date. EVER.


"YOUR CHEAP TRICKS WON'T WORK.NONE OF US WILL LEAVE. THE PROBLEM IS BABA WILL ALSO BE IN TROUBLE.IF YOU TRY TO GO DEEPER INTO OUR LIVES.IT WILL BE ANOTHER JUNE 3RD."--usedbybaba



This page will show the documentation of usedbybaba aka usedcrybaby's trail of cyber-stalking activity:


USEDBYBABA EXPOSED EXPOSED EXPOSED ANONYMOUS WHACKO ATTACKING SAI BABA



"You are right you will have to forgive my unsophistication. You see before I had any tertiary edu, I was a construction worker, cane-cutter, australian gigolo, union man, and surfer. Heaven for me was 'surfs up', and 'out the back', on Aussie beaches."--Tony O'Clery
CO2000Person was signed in when posted  2869
03-25-2007 04:20 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 03-11-2008 07:05 AM
/m2864, /m2870

The reason we are "so vituperative" is because you are such a lying, abusive sociopath Tony. Nothing more and nothing less. You are harassing and bullying people with your irrational mind imaginings and expect people to put up with your crap. Ditto for your buddies.




Persecutors of Sathya Sai Baba
Joe108Person was signed in when posted  2868
03-25-2007 03:08 PM ET (US)
Tony O'Clery  2867
03-25-2007 02:23 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 03-25-2007 02:27 PM
Joe wrote/Yeah right, so now Tony O'Clery claims he remembers an email from a "jose moreno" who lived in either NM or AZ emailing him in the 1990's about chanting the gayatri in a dying shitzu's ear and immediately assumed it was me. How believable is that??

Well that joe moreno lived in the usa south west, had an hispanic name, was a sai devotee, on the sainet. How many more coincidences do you need?
Tony O'Clery  2866
03-25-2007 02:14 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 03-25-2007 02:15 PM
We are definately dealing with pedophile enablers and apologists in simon the drunk, lisa the mental case, and joe the psychotic. sb attack dogs and worshipers of pedophilia and corruption.
> Namaste,
>
> It seems to me that the pro sai activistd defend too much. Is it
> because they themselves belong to gay pedophile rings?
>
I think it is self-evident that these people lisa de witt, simon brace and joe moreno are at least favourably disposed and defenders of pedophiles. Apart from the calumny and hysteria they put on the net, they are also responsible for sending out viruses and trojans to anyone who takes them on so to speak. They are a bunch strange 'walking wounded' as Bon would say.........Tony.
Joe108Person was signed in when posted  2865
03-25-2007 01:38 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 03-25-2007 01:40 PM
Yeah right, so now Tony O'Clery claims he remembers an email from a "jose moreno" who lived in either NM or AZ emailing him in the 1990's about chanting the gayatri in a dying shitzu's ear and immediately assumed it was me. How believable is that?

Tony, you and I both know you are lying. You are just trying to cover-up your bogus psychic reading. You, Tony, are a pathological liar with proof. You defame Sathya Sai Baba, you defamed India's President as "in all likelihood being a gay pedophile" and you defame me, Lisa and Simon as being "gay", belonging to "gay pedophile rings" and being "gay pedophiles".

Tony O'Clery has the dirty habit of blindly defaming others without proof. He does it with Sai Baba and he does it against others. Tony now stands exposed, fallen and thoroughly discredited and can only defame others to defend himself.

Pathetic!

Tony O'Clery  2864
03-25-2007 11:42 AM ET (US)
Is the real reason pro sb activists are so vituperative because they are gay pedophiles like sb.?
Tony O'Clery  2863
03-25-2007 11:17 AM ET (US)
There is a strange connection between simon defending pedophilia and the actions of simom joe and lisa, they all seem to be gay but are they more?
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