Sathya Sai Baba, 2005, who is he?

Hi all, I am the moderator, welcoming you all.

I have read SO many Sai Baba pro and con articles and posts and threads, over the years. many have died of old age or of banning or of spamming by baba lovers/haters.

So now it is Febuary 2005. Who is Sai baba?
God?
a god?
a guru?
a charleton?
a sex molestor?
a fake?
a man?
---you make the call, and "why".

He is now about 80 years old, he says he will live till he is 95 or so. I read so little about him, now, in the press and media. no more books are for sale about him, unless one were to go to a website.

I will "offically" be Neutral here. I am trying to find out, myself, more about him. Thus this quicktopic might be a good way to get currant opinions and personal experiences about him.

freestone [birth certificate family last name!]

Edited by author 02-11-2005 06:39 PM
there was an old messege forum that had over 3100 posts to it, a vertible treasure trove of baba material pro and con.

http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/qYarJBpGLW7G6/p8.1
and the last messege is at
http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/qYarJBpGLW7G6
3164 messeges, and the forum is closed.
   there were a lot of jewels there for discerning people to read.

I noted that near the end, there were many anti-baba posters who posted under false names, and too too often!
>>>>
quote
She was quite serious and supposed it was karma. She had many years in Puttaparthi to observe devotees. Sadly, it seems that at least one of those devotees who went over the edge has made his way to this board. Why, I wonder, would anyone want to post under several alias names or steal other's names unless they had truly gone over the edge of sanity. Let there be Light....
quote.

people who use devious tricks to post, are Guilty of the same "evil" as that they accuse baba of doing!!
"the ends justify the means" has undone many many a social reformer, who ends up being One Of Them that he/she rails against!!

there is no way to access those 3100 posts randomly!
one must go backwards in sequence, or begin at the beginning url, UNLESS one knows the trick! one can right click on the link for the number...

<< 3109-3116 3101-3108 of 3172 3093-3100 >>
 
Who | When Messages (not accepting new messages)

 
Long-Time Devotee 3108
 
07-09-2002 02:19 AM ET (US)
 When I was a devotee of sb, I had a good devotee friend who lived for many years in Puttaparthi. She said to me in quiet honesty more than once, "I wonder why so many devotees go crazy??"
 
in that "3093-3100", above, righ clicking on it brings up
"copy shortcut"
then paste into the url field at the top of the browser.
http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/qYarJBpGLW7G6/p3100.3093

press enter to get the PROBABLE error site not found messege! then you take that
http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/qYarJBpGLW7G6/p3100.3093
  and change the url to
http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/qYarJBpGLW7G6/p129
or
http://www.quicktopic.com/8/H/qYarJBpGLW7G6/p2559
or try other numbers, some work!!

freestone

freestone

hi:)

i'm new on this forum and i'd like to share my own opinion. First time i heard about Sai was about a year and a half ago, and then i started to read everything i could find about him so i know his words. There is a way too much big rumour made about who Sathya Sai Baba is. even though i have no proofs to show that he is a sex-molester 'in my opinion' saying that he is a charleton is a subjektive opinion, because i could also say that Pope John Paul II for example is a charleton if i only disagree with his teachings. people who find in his teachings something against their own religion, believes, can say that. I understand, they may be scared that they may lose something precious, their faith. another thing: Sathya Sai Baba isn't the first, and won't be the last person who teaches that not only he is a GOD, but also we are. i don't know if you can see a paradox that the author of the Conversations with God (Neale Donald Walsch), for example, wasn't called a charleton, but his teaching despite the form are nearly the same. Short version: i am who i am. you are too, and ..i love you. That was only an example, they're are countless. if you give yourself a time to be familiar with his teachings, and if you feel like they touch your heart decide in what you believe. if not, express your opinion but don't judge if you don't want to be judged. i know one thing that his words completely changed my life and let in some love i was looking for. i thank him from here for that. personally, i think he is great, and trust his words that sound true to me. as i said that's my own opinion and i'd like to hear what you think about it. I love you guys and have a nice life.

ps. please forget my English
Friend

HI I HAVE MET HIM IN HIS INTERVIEW ROOM, AND I HAVE HAD MANY EXP... I FEEL I KNOW WHAT HE IS ... PLS MAIL ME.

SSB teachings are not unlike many others in the world. I have had many interviews with SSB, been given rings, robe, ash etc. Had many private interviews one on one with him. I was 10 years with his teachings. I was related to and knew heads of the organization personaly. My first trip was when I was 16 years old. This is hard for people to exept when they never have had first hand experiences. My third private interview was the first time he massaged my penis. He did this twice to me and once to my brother. He forced my brother to have oral sex with him. He told me to stay away from girls and only be with him. He said "I am God"...do you want me to do this to you? No I did not want SSB to do anything to me but he did. When you are young and everybody says he is God, you have fear of saying no to him. As I became older, I realized that I had been interfeared with and that it had nothing to do with rising my kundalini energy or anything of the sort. He made me and my brother very sad for a long time. In my visits to him I also meet many students and other young men from all over the world who had had the same thing happen to them. Fear, confusion, shattered faith, broken families, broken marriges and most of all, taking away young mens purity that should be shared with a woman they love, not with a man materbating then and forcing oral sex. My brother and I are not the only ones this has happened to. SSB the man is very different to the teachings he gives. The truth has been given....Thank you

HI all, from Freestone, the "owner" of this list.

ah, the sex experiences!

I once read a sort of "confidential memo" that baba wrote, or talked about, to his inner circle. He spoke about how the Identification of Love, Truth, Goodness, with his FORM, has now got to stop!
[so many devotees think that baba *is* the Lord, the christmas wrapping paper on the present-box is the contents!]
he went on to talk about how love goodness truth has no form whatsoever.

I have a Guess!
baba made sure that no one would ever ever have a picture of baba on his/her wall ever ever again! In fact, to
dis-avow baba, deny baba and go back to Jesus or Mohammad or whatever...
[maybe the muslum idea that there should be no icons of God, in image form, is a very good idea!]

Thus now Tal Brooke, who was one of the very first people to find out about baba and his sexing men and boys, has become a very Fundamentalist christian, and, i think, as of a few years ago, has joined with some of the Yale[?]...Harvard[?] inner circle of devout movers and shakers in the intellectual christain movement, there.

after all, when you have a Direct Line to God, via Jesus, do you need *another* phone line?!!

thus baba deliberately, in some manner, chose this sex thing.

after all, he has told over and over about how he cares not what people think of him.

probably he will die alone, maybe even before his stated time of 94, 95, 96 years, that he has told how long he will live. to die alone with hardly any devotees, and most people would call him, via history's Judgement, a FAILURE!

thus i would recommend that one knows that the spiritual life has no form or shape and that this reality is not in a picture of a man!

I have a suspician that once i go to heaven, and visit that world of baba that baba says that all of his devotees go to after they die, and *IF* baba is who he says he is, then i would find, there, that all of the devotee's houses
have no trace at all of baba there! In fact no vistor would even be able to tell that this realm is "baba's realm", as there are no temples about him, no pictures or statues of him!
the only thing that one would find there is a lot of love, truth and good acts, by everyone to everyone around them, and there would be beauty in all of the surroudings!
no baba form.

freestone

To be or not to be?

Why are so many people needing somthing to worship? Why is there a need to bow down to a higher source as I did for so many years? As you said, Tal is now a Fundamentalist Christian. There is still teachings that go along with that but no direct communication with the source. No chance of the bad memories he had with SSB. When you said [maybe the muslum idea that there should be no icons of God, in image form, is a very good idea!] what perseption do you have then? I would think that simple is sweet. Perhaps my god is the air that I breath now. Maybe the only true temple is GOD... Great Out Doors. Nobody truly knows the real answers. What if there is absolutly NOTHING! When you have faith in one thing,then through what ever reason change to something else, claiming to all that this is the one, then you are not forfilled for what ever reason. What does one do? Bounce around from faith to faith or just give up the whole bloody thing and sweep it all under the mat. At the end of the day nobody TRULY knows the answer.

I have no problem with Tals choice of faith, good on him after what he has been through. I have been through the same things as he, but when your faith is crushed and you have lost your trust in the most beautiful teachings and words from so many walks of life...I am left with the one truth I know...and that is."Nobody Truely Knows"

I feel after all that has happened with SSB,I am left like a leaf blowing in the wind. He did not build my faith in God but rather destroyed it and the will to search.

First Hand

Edited by author 08-12-2005 09:17 AM

[quote]

 First hand experience 7
 
08-12-2005 02:23 AM ET (US)
SAYS....


To be or not to be?


I feel after all that has happened with SSB,I am left like a leaf blowing in the wind. He did not build my faith in God but rather destroyed it and the will to search.
[/quote]

=====================================




yes I feel your pain.

My blind friend, Bruce, who is a very "strong" person, and a very devout Christian of the Fundalmentalist flavor, says often to me, in his emails, "worship the creator, not the created"!

any "object" is created, like even sai baba is a created form! The creator, being "above" form, is what one should worship. all forums will eventually DIE!

I also find, from reading of esoteric stuff, that in the higher heavens, thoughts, laws, ideas, are also "things"!
they are not to be worshipped either! In fact, the lower heavens change over time, only the upper, celestual, heavens are Permanent.
Hell exists too, i have been there, seen some of it, and you do *not* want to go there to live!

If baba has any merit, as something to worship, then it would be the "entity" behind and above baba. in fact, some of his "ex" worshippers, write how they pray to the
"greater baba"! they do not have any pictures of baba in their homes. nor do they have any image of him when they pray.

I have experienced many dreams, myself, where I have been taken, by Guides of some sort, to see and to experience places in the heavens, much like Paul was taken up to see the heavens, to the third heaven, he writes.
Yes, i have seen many levels of heavens, from healing centers for the newly arrived, to schools of progressions.
i have seen my own "deceased" sister graduate from such a school, Jesus himself took all of the 50 or so students to a higher heaven.
[this here freestone thusly has seen Jesus as a Living Spirit, he Exists, truely!]
Wince!
I, yes, have also seen baba in my dreams and for many dreams. there was one where he lectured, gave a lecture on the "dead", the souls who live without spirit in their hearts. "the unsaved", in Jesus's terms!
most of my baba dreams are where i just see him somewheres.

[oh i could write pages about this baba experiences of mine, not in this reply though, i will dribble some out as time goes by and then more, if this Forum becomes popular!
Be aware that I am *not* a "devotee" of baba! I eat meat and live a western life, i have no pictures of baba in my apartment. I do not feel that all that he does is "nice"!!]

I have some of my own dream experiences written up at my yahoo page group. you may, if interested, come to read some of my heaven visits, in the "files" section.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestonefiles/

my weblog is at
http://freestone.blogspot.com
"my life after near death experiences"

freestone

Who are you?
Who are you in the traveles of your dreams? Who are you in the wakeing day? How do you think I can have faith in your dream time! Have you ever had a physical experience of your travels when you are not asleep!!! Sleeping dreams have so much to do with what you have eaten before sleep, drucken before sleep and also the amount of sleep you havent had before the experience! I am not cutting you down. I am simply a person who has heard so many people like yourself, crap on with this type of shit and you truly have no proof of what you are saying. Its people like you that cause great discomfort in people that are not strong in mind and have nothing to turn to, and believe the first thing that is said to them. You must be carefull in your truth, for many people might feel less than you. It is not there fault but a journey they must travel without your dreams of misplacement!

Going to heaven and hell is a personal mis conception that has only happened in your dreams. Like SSB, you are someone that can be dangerous to the inosent that have a simple truth but will listen to all because they are seeking.

Be carefull my friend, SSB`s ashram is full of people like you,

LIVE A SILENT TRUTH

I have known Sai Bab for 30 years - the past ten years from a very personal level. I also spent two whole years in the ashram (or outside it). There is nothing to indicate that Sai Baba of Puttaparthi is a charlattan. But in Bukkampatnam, about two miles out of Puttaparthi is a charlattan who dresses up as Sai Baba, does some tricks and generally tries to lead devotees away. If you are a new devotee going to Puttaparthi - there are a 50% chance you could end up in Bukkampatnam and meet the other "Sai Baba".

QT - Nalinesh <qtopic+29-FE68KidtskS@quicktopic.com> wrote:
--QT------------------------------------------------------------- Reply by email or visit
http://www.quicktopic.com/29/H/FE68KidtskS/m10
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I have known Sai Bab for 30 years - the past ten years from a
very personal level. I also spent two whole years in the ashram
(or outside it). There is nothing to indicate that Sai Baba of
Puttaparthi is a charlattan. But in Bukkampatnam, about two
miles out of Puttaparthi is a charlattan who dresses up as Sai
Baba, does some tricks and generally tries to lead devotees
away. If you are a new devotee going to Puttaparthi - there are
a 50% chance you could end up in Bukkampatnam and meet the other
"Sai Baba".
_________________________________________________________________

that is nice to know, the real thing always has soon a counterfeit! The real Baba is so busy that surely, as he himself says, "no one comes here to see me unless I bring them"!
 

freestone




seen on a bridge overpass, in Rochester, ny 1970
..."AND THE TRUTH WILL MAKE YOU LAUGH"!

Freestone Wilson
freestonew@yahoo.com
weblog....
http://freestone.blogspot.com

hi all, from freestone, the moderator.

I have found a site, that for me, is an Amazing site, about the Expose of Sathya!

http://www.saisathyasai.com/

Here, this person exposes the exposers!

I will post some of what he found, in summery, in a cut and paste of some of the front page, go to read this if you are interested!
==================


SATHYA SAI BABA: Lies & Anti-Sais
 
 
ExBaba.com Deception

Insightful and astonishing facts about the portal to the largest Anti-Sai site on the internet, ExBaba.com. An exhaustive page for page analysis.


SATHYA SAI BABA
• DOCUMENTARY: Secret Swami
Anti-Sai Film

A documentary that not only misrepresented Alaya's testimonies, against the Indian Guru Satya Sai Baba, but failed to take into account vital information about Alaya Rahm.


SATHYA SAI BABA
• DOCUMENTARY: Seduced By Sai Baba
Anti-Sai Film

Contradictory testimonies from Conny Larsson, Jed Geyerhahn and Alaya Rahm, examined. Also talks about Ojvind Kyro and his unsubstantiated claim to being in possession of 10 affidavits.


SATHYA SAI BABA
• SATHYA SAI BABA: Mirror Site
 SaiGuru.net Deception

An Anti-Sai site that duplicates articles from ExBaba.com (and other Anti-SSB sites) and tries to pass itself off as an "independent" site.

SATHYA SAI BABA
• 20 YEAR UNTRUTH: Skeptics Untruth Exposed
A False Claim

James Randi related a story about Sam Dalal (regarding a Seiko watch miracle attributed to Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba) over 20 years ago, that was shown to be 100% incorrect. All it took was one email to disprove this untruth.

SATHYA SAI BABA
 • WITNESSES: Alaya Rahm
 Withheld Information

An extensive look into the various sexual abuse testimonies made by Alaya Rahm, along with interesting observations and two insightful transcripts.

SATHYA SAI BABA
 • SAIPETITION.NET: Online Petition
Petition Against SSB

Exposing the deceptive practices, additions, alterations, deletions and false claims made by the "petition" administrators against Sathya Sai Baba and the Sai Organization.


SATHYA SAI BABA
• CORRESPONDENCE: Emails Sent/Received
From The Source

Emails from Anti-Sai Activists and their unusual, bitter and angry remarks and responses to valid concerns and questions.


SATHYA SAI BABA
• ALLEGED SEXUAL ABUSE: Witnesses
16 Alleged Victims

16 people are listed as allegedly being sexually abused by Sri Satya Sai Baba (a.k.a. "Swamiji"). Fake names, contradictions and oilings discussed.

SATHYA SAI BABA
• CHRISTIAN ATTACKS: & Sathya Sai Baba
Anti-Sai Movement

Anti-Sai Activists have denied that there is a Christian Anti-Sai/Hindu movment. My research has uncovered that there are definitely Christians who are Anti-Sai/Hindu. This article highlights Christian advocates (many fundamentalists) who actively disperse propaganda against Sathya Sai Baba on the internet.




SATHYA SAI BABA
 • AFFIDAVITS: Sworn Testimonies?
 Where are they?

Numerous claims to "affidavits" filed against the Indian Baba. Not even one affidavit has been made public, despite rampant claims.

SATHYA SAI BABA
 • U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT: Sai Baba Advisory
 The Real Story

The real reason behind the U.S. State Department's warning for Puttaparthi Ashram travelers and how Anti-Sathya-Sai Activists revealed it was their unremitting efforts that brought about the warning.

SATHYA SAI BABA
• UNESCO: Withdrawal
 Just The Facts

The Unesco and Flinders University Withdrawal from the ISSE (Institute of Sathya Sai Education) Conference and how Anti-Sai Activists boasted on how they accomplished it by "e-bombing" various officials and resorting to group thuggery tactics.

============================

MY COMMENTS

nasty nasty!
After i had read some of this, I felt in a bad mood. Here are people who try to expose Sia baba, who are not in truth in and of themselves. From a "baba sex" guy who was himself apparently under therapy for the same child sex offenses, when younger, to e-mail bombings to rants, you name it.

I have a friend who once told me that there was a colalition of christian fundamentalists who have an agendy to tear down ALL Hindu living Gurus, not just sai baba. To make them all look so bad, in people's eyes, that people would only go for the Fundamentalist approach to spiritual life!
    No wonder most of Europe is "christian free"! no sane or intelligent young person would want to touch christianty, and i can well well see why!

I also had my friend tell me that many of the "old school"
hindu gurus do not like baba, or any of the "modern" Gurus either! the old school gurus feel that no guru should ever ever come out of seclusion, they should stay in their cave! here baba comes out into the world, a "no-no", to their way of old life!

here is a link to an interesting forum about the people who
are "anti-baba"! all of these critics of baba seem to have great personal problems and they all seem to be of the very worst hyprocrits!

http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba-forum/


freestone

I was a devotee of Sathya Sai Baba for just over a decade, and made six trips to see him in India. Now no longer a devotee, I use this blog to record memories, comments and muses on the SB scenario and also point out inaccuracies in SB's philosophical and theological presentation.

http://saibabaexposed.blogspot.com/

Edited by author 01-05-2006 10:29 PM
I was wandering what the anti SB lobby thought of Shirdi Sai Baba? Once can be sure there are the usual violent-monotheists or fundamentalists that once crucified Christ are more or less the same lot we have in their modern incarnations in today's Cyber Age ?

Edited by author 01-14-2006 10:51 PM
Alien, my personal opinion whether Sathya Sai Baba is the reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba is undecided. You can view an essay I wrote back in June 2003 where I commented and questioned the link between the two:

http://saibabaexposed.blogspot.com/2002/07...iva-or-sadhaka.html

As for Shirdi Baba himself, I respect him as a great saint. Whatever I have read of him has impressed me and although I disagree with that tradition on minor points, I have no doubt that he is still a living presence of sorts.

I am not student or devotee, but to the Supreme. In finding all that many faces can be attained in ones garden, all faces are mine even that of Sai Baba. If the world would waste more time, in the discovery of all the faces it carries, those hidden those shown to delight, the world would be a peaceful place for all faces. A person, creature or thing, even that beyond is far from wholeness till it where's all the faces to reach love. Between desires and temptation are the spoken words of hosted bodies that speak only what one wishes too attain. Humanity spend energy in your own discovery, rather in the discovery of any host of body or bodies, perhaps this garden of mine, will stand with good. All faces then could reach infinite peace here or beyond, your garden and your neighbors. Live your life, not desire anothers. If you belong not in a house whether it be Sai Baba or mine then find your house. Silence yourself, for in talking to much one takes the breath of a child being born. The energy one exalts to say non-good, is double the effort. For in saying nothing is something, to say to much is too be lost.

i have one question for "Sai Baba Exposed", why did u stop believing in baba? u must have a special reason... i was just curious but u dont have 2 answer it...

Edited by author 04-18-2006 10:33 AM
 from freestone the moderator...
 
04-15-2006 10:22 PM ET (US)
 [student said....]
i have one question for "Sai Baba Exposed", why did u stop believing in baba? u must have a special reason... i was just curious but u dont have 2 answer it...
---------------------------------------

freestone says......

from what I can tell, there might be two reasons, I see this a lot with baba and the devotees.
1...the devotee gets bothered by some seeming inconsisticies, but the devotee might not realize that baba is drawing from his own Spirit the info and baba might know much much more about it than the devotee!

2...more importantly, the kitten has got to be weaned! thus many devotees are baba-encouaged, by baba even "turning on the devotee" to make the devotee walk away and come back home and then to begin his life!
baba might have wanted to connect this devotee to the Spirit of baba, or the spirit of the Lord, within his heart, and then thus the outer baba should not be needed anymore! once you have that cell phone, the public phone booths are not now needed! so the pupil is encouraged to leave and if he does not get the message, baba might "force" him to leave by some "sex act" rumor appearing, or the like, so that this devotee might have to , say, return to america or england, marry, get a job, live his life with Spirit in his heart, even if it is with Jesus, not baba, as jesus is the 9th Avatar, and whther jesus or baba, the connection is to the Lord!

freestone

One cannot say "These people are criticising Sai Baba, they are scum, worthy only of Naraka (Hell)." Whilst many may wish this to be true, Sai Baba admonishes with love and enjoins with both the law of love and the law of karma. Hence, everyone gets back exactly what they give out.If any body abuses you, take no note, for the abuser is abusing only the body and not your Self. If somebody calls you a bad man, do you become a bad man by mere calling? If in fact, you have something bad in you, try to destroy it. There are a large number of people in this Kali Yuga who abuse God because their wishes are not fulfilled. This is a universal habit common to all countries. You should not succumb to such mean and unholy feelings. Thyagaraja, for example says, that God will manifest to you only to the extent and manner in which you approach God. Whichever way one conceives the Godhead, God appears to him in the same form. If your emotions are good, you get corresponding results.Hatred, jealousy and ostentation have become widespread these days. Get rid of these and get into the principle of love. Whether your desires are fulfilled or not, think that all that happens is good for your good. When you encounter difficulties, always think that better days are ahead. Good and bad are always mixed. Therefore, take both of them with the same attitude.

The person using the name "saibabaexposed" is none other than Sanjay Kishore Dadlani. Sanjay attempts to take a moral and ethical stance against Sathya Sai Baba and is the current mouthpiece for the Anti-Sai movement (receiving the full support and promotion from ALL Anti-Sai Sites).

What Sanjay does not say, however, is that he has been fully exposed for: 1) Pathological Lies; 2) Requesting Jesus, Disney and Biblical Pornography; 3) Creating a vulgar boot-fetish blog that exploited teenagers, women and female students, among many other things.

Such are the exposers of Sathya Sai Baba

Anti-Sai Campaign is a Farce
After three years and thousands of hours of research into the issues, I have come to the conclusion that the allegations against Sai Baba are more than highly suspicious to say the very least. None of the accusers have ever even tried to file charges in India as required by law. Instead they have played judge, jury and sentencer over the internet. They have contradicted themselves and changed their stories and have absolutely no corroborating witnesses or evidence. They have lied about signing legal affidavits which were notarized. It appears they have lied about Hari Sampath's supposed trip to the Supreme Court of India on May 8, 2001, which is not listed anywhere on the Supreme Court website.
Almost all accusers were grown men (foreigners) whom it appears the anti-Sai group used to try and create the illusion they were "children" who had been sexually abused when, in fact suspiciously, they were adults-some as old as 30 years! Almost all cases are now past the eight year Indian statute of limitations. Most of those pushing the allegations have hidden agendas such as being evangelical Christians, Catholics, anti-Semites and/or white supremacists or atheists! There are even wanted criminals in the group of detractors, including an evangelical Christian who runs a website from the Netherlands and is wanted in California for failing to register as a sex offender after spending six months in prison! If anyone should be investigated, it should be the hate group stalking Sathya Sai Baba.
And HOW many times will it have to be explained to the democratically, ethically and mentally challenged anti-Sai group that NO investigation is launched into any crime in ANY country UNLESS there is an actual victim, willing to take legal responsibility, who FILES FORMAL charges in the COUNTRY where the crime was committed? For some strange reason Robert Priddy, et al, seem to have great difficulty understanding this VERY simple concept of the presumption of innnocence but would rather continue to demonize the Indian government in their blatant and extremely deceptive propaganda campaign. Saisathyasai.com has done an excellent job documenting this deception.
The simple FACT is that not ONE of the alleged victims has filed charges in India. Not one of them EVEN tried to file charges! This nonaction is VERY suspicious in itself. But you cannot get the anti-Sais to understand this because they live in a fantasy world where they think they can make up the rules as they go.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Persecutors_...ba/?yguid=131958149

Lisa & Joe - Do you two twits have nothing better to do than to disturb Sai Baba discussion groups and plague them with irrelevant information? Try sticking to the topic and discuss/defend Sai Baba for once.


Arielle - Whereas you have a point, that logic does not work in the real world. If you know someone is a murderer and call them out, does that make you a murderer? If you know someone who beats up his wife, does that make you an abusive spouse? Similarly, where Sathya Sai Baba has been called into question over alleged homosexual paedophile activities, murders and other things, it is also a matter of growing concern that he has little or no spiritual authority either. In my view that is the most important thing; millions of people are being influenced to believe in somebody and live their lives according to the teachings of someone who is a sham and a fraud. If Sai Baba cannot even tell us the truth about his own "divinity", then how can you expect him to tell the truth about his criminal activities?


Student - I have written something on my blog about it, here:

Why I Left Sai Baba (In Brief)

Freestone -

1 I have no idea what you are referring to here.

2 If you read my blog link above, you'll find that despite vigorously and strenuously defending Sai Baba from paedophilia and murder allegations on an almost daily basis for a continuous period of ten months, I left Sai Baba of my own accord and had little or nothing to do with the sex allegations.

As I state very clearly on my blog: "I was a hardcore follower of Sathya Sai Baba for just over a decade, and made six trips to see him in India. Now no longer a devotee, I use this blog to record memories, comments and muses on the Sai scenario and also point out inaccuracies in Sai Baba's philosophical and theological presentation."

That's it in a nutshell. I was never "forced" to leave Sai Baba through his "intangible will" or anything like that, although I recognise your right to think differently. I left Sai Baba and realised his fraudulence through my own research of his teachings and philosophy. What he teaches and claims to have advented to uphold is not in line with the Vedantic and spiritual philosophy that he claims to espouse.

I think that it's very important to realise how much of a fraud Sai Baba is through his own sayings and doings. This is what I document in my blog. No amount of spiritual 'apologising' by his enamoured devotees can change the simple fact that he is not who he says he is.

Edited by author 04-27-2006 12:48 PM
Here's some examples of where I have documented my experiences:

Sai Youth - SEX - - (Update)

Sai Youth - DRUGS

Sai Youth - ROCK & ROLL

Sai Baba - A Whiff Of Fraud

"Sai Krishna" Lie Surfaces Again

Sai Baba's Hypnotic Sex Defence

German Woman Alleges Rape In Puttaparthi

Readers have the choice to believe what I have written or not. The point being is that not everything smells of roses in Sai Baba's garden. Sai Baba may have have a lot of positive factors about him and has done positive things, but it's about time due publicity was given to the increasing concerns that are growing larger and larger as time passes.

By the way, I am not the "current mouthpiece" of the "Anti-Sai Movement" as some people would like to think. I am a vocal critic and ex-devotee, that's it.

hi all. Time to post this URL again

http://www.saisathyasai.com/

his own purpose: to expose the "exposers of Sai baba!
in his words.....

[quote]
----Why is the purpose of this site?


On these pages, I document the shocking and very disturbing online behavior, attacks and smear campaigns waged by Anti-Sai Activists. These pages sum up my entire view about Anti-Sai Activists and how they are a mob of angry, vindictive and hateful individuals who place their own agenda of deceit and dishonesty above all else.

expose the lies, deceit, misrepresentations, conflations, exaggerations and contradictory allegations made against SSB by Anti-SSB Activists who disperse their propaganda on websites on the internet.
=========

If you are not a devotee, why did you create this website?

My Response: I believe the only type of person who can present a balanced view into the SSB debate is one who is extremely familiar with SSB but not to the extent of making excuses for SSB (as devotees generally do). As one will notice on my site, I provide links to all the articles I take issue with or discuss. I do not try to suppress other viewpoints. However, Anti-SSB Sites refuse to provide links to my site and have even banned my site from linking to them. I think this proves that Anti-SSB Sites have much to fear and operate on the premise of deceit, lies and suppression to promote their agenda of hate and propaganda at any cost
=============

Why would anyone want to lie about Sathya Sai Baba?

My Response: There are many people who would want to lie about Sathya Sai Baba. Click Here to read my article containing factual information regarding the Christian Anti-Sai/Hindu movement. The International Sai Organization is composed of millions of people and is seen as a direct threat by orthodox, evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. Christians were spreading Anti-Sai propaganda many years before the accusations that were later to be made public.
=============
[/quote]

You ought to have over an hour to read his site, there are a *lot* of stuff there: seems that he makes a case for that many of the baba critics
have terrible problems of their own, and that many of them lie and slander as they hate baba so much.

Many of the baba haters work as a "organized group" apparently, as they belong to fundamentalist Christian organizations!
[quote]

The Christian Anti-Sai/Hindu Movement

For several years, many people have claimed that there are Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christian movements against Sathya Sai Baba and Hinduism. Anti-Sai Activists have continually denied that such movements exist and have tried to dismiss these "rumors" as paranoia and excuses for Anti-Sai activity. However, Anti-Sai Activists have been wholly unconvincing considering that they have documented their efforts to polarize Christians, against the Indian Guru, on their own sites! The following is a list to Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christian sites, people and organizations that oppose Sathya Sai Baba and Hinduism:

http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.c...-sai-movements.html

[/quote]


freestone

Edited by author 04-28-2006 12:25 PM
Freestone,

I remember you from when you used to contribute to discussions in the Yahoo Groups. I have not seen you around until very recently by virtue of this forum.

I see that you have been easily led by this propaganda. I find it incredibly ironic that the owner of that website - while claiming to document the shocking and very disturbing online behavior, attacks and smear campaigns waged by Anti-Sai Activists [and] expose the lies, deceit, misrepresentations, conflations, exaggerations and contradictory allegations made against SSB by Anti-SSB Activists who disperse their propaganda on websites on the internet - completely ignores his own guilt of all those things and even more.

I have no need to mention more as Moreno's "concerns" may be fully addressed at an appropriate time. Suffice it to say that we have nothing to worry about considering the very sparse refutation of most of our claims, deflecting attention away from the issues surrounding Sathya Sai Baba to concentrate on other irrelevant things.


>> I believe the only type of person who can present a balanced view into the SSB debate is one who is extremely familiar with SSB but not to the extent of making excuses for SSB (as devotees generally do) ... I do not try to suppress other viewpoints. However, Anti-SSB Sites refuse to provide links to my site and have even banned my site from linking to them. I think this proves that Anti-SSB Sites have much to fear and operate on the premise of deceit, lies and suppression to promote their agenda of hate and propaganda at any cost. <<

It might interest you to know that whereas he claims not to be a devotee, he nevertheless acts as a devotee. He has a total of three pro-Sai sites, two of which include devotional content with pictures, biographies, and the like. The amount of time he spends defending an individual he claims not to believe in frankly makes him look a little silly. Suffice it to say, he has no need to make "excuses" for Sathya Sai Baba because he himself believes that Sai Baba has sexually abused men.

The old version of his page stated the following:

"I am not a Sathya Sai Baba devotee. Nevertheless, I have had many positive, powerful and spiritual experiences with SSB, as I have had with any other spiritual personalities. I do not belong to, go to, or affiliate myself with SSB Centers or the SSO."

The new page has a significant change:

"I am not a Sathya Sai Baba devotee. I was a devotee from the age of 18 to the age of 25. I had/have basic philosophical differences of opinion, with several aspects to SSB's teachings (in particular, God Concepts & Karma), and I left the Sai Movement for that reason. Nevertheless, I have had many beautiful, powerful and spiritual experiences with SSB, as I have had with many other spiritual personalities. My opinion about Sathya Sai Baba (based on my personal experiences with him) is positive. I do not belong to, go to, or affiliate myself with SSB Centers or the SSO. I am an open-minded (but not gullible) agnostic."

The reason he changed thus was because he was feeling the heat from people who were openly wondering why he has committed a significant amount of time and energy writing in defence of a troubled avatar who he does not believe in. It was a move to gain legitimacy for his viewpoint by claiming that he has a reason for investment. Even then he fails, as his current activity does not represent his current beliefs about Sai Baba.


And as for claiming that anti-Sai sites have banned him from linking to their websites, this is an exposed lie. A short while ago Moreno tried to come up with a fancy explanation about htaccess files and how ExBaba was using one against him. Just a tiny problem, Exbaba has never employed any htaccess files or other such things against him. No anti-Sai site has banned Gerald Moreno from linking to their site. I have consulted with the technical operative behind these sites and they have all confirmed that they have never banned Moreno.

There are also incidences of Moreno's displaying unclickable links to other anti-Sai sites such as Conny Larsson's site and my blog. Neither of these sites have blocked Moreno yet he still displays unclickable links to these sites claiming that he is blocked from linking to them. This lie has been in effect since December 2004 and this means that Moreno has been lying about this issue since that time.


>> Many of the baba haters work as a "organized group" apparently, as they belong to fundamentalist Christian organizations! <<

There is no "organised group", and neither do Expose Activists belong to Fundamentalist Christian organisations. Whereas it may be so that some activists are of the Christian religion, does this necessarily mean that there is collusion or affiliation with any organisation with an agenda? Can't it be possible for ex-devotees to be "normal" Christians? This itself is a very popular lie amongst Sai Baba defenders, who have exposed themselves as clowns in a most ridiculous manner. Do you seriously believe that, for example, a Muslim who was educated in a school with a Christian vision becomes a Fundamentalist Christian?

In many ways this site contains false, malicious and defamatory content which will be exposed in the future, so I have nothing more to say except to tell you not to believe everything that you read. I have already written way more than I intended to write and have nothing more to say except to leave it for the future. I suspect that either Moreno or De Witt may respond to this but I will not be replying except to discuss Sathya Sai Baba, "Who is he?"

I'm also highly disappointed that you clearly have nothing to say regarding my points of view, and are simply indulging in the spread of malicious and hateful propaganda instead. I thought that this forum was a place to discuss "Who is Sathya Sai Baba?", but clearly I was wrong. But as I said earlier, nothing can distract from the fact that not everything smells of roses in Sai Baba's garden and no amount of 'apologising' for Sai Baba by his enamoured devotees can change the simple fact that he is not who he says he is. People can say anything they like about ex-devotees because they have very little to say in Sai Baba's defence.

well, maybe it is time for me to take off a layer of "gloves" and write a bit about myself!

I essentually side with both sides of the baba controversy! I began this
forum mostly to feel out what people today think and feel about baba.

the "real" baba forums seem to be filled with young devotees that are as fervently pro-baba that they are as "fundamentalist" as any chrasmic christian at their worst! they do not wanna hear a bit about their god
might also have a bowel movement once a day or so!! kill ya for mentioning anything anti-baba.

and the anti-baba people often are so full of anger, even if rightiously so.

me?
I would not go to India of my own free will, I cannot even go to church comfortably, here in America! I do not believe in Gurus or people who tell you how to live your life.

in fact, my own philosophy runs a bit like this: how in heaven or hell's name can you become saved unless there is a you there to become saved with?! how can you transcend your ego unless you first have an ego?!

gotta do the steps, miss one, in the child-development series [pegout[sp]], and you never catch up! most of us *think* we have an ego, but often this "ego" is only made up of other people's stuff that you ate and never did chew: swallow whole! often "you" is composed of your family, your small town, your peer group, your country, your race, and NONE of it might be yours!

the closests belief system that i can feel for is the SET group.
http://www.xeper.org/
and a disciple says....essentually that the Set people are to become Themselves, to be an individual and to Wake Up.
http://www.balanone.info/tosintw2.html
more info.

One of my many hobbies is to try to figure out the motivations of people and to see how and why people follow masters and cults.

I am finding reality to be a strange and sticky thing, as i get ever the older.


I have heard so so many "horror stories" about church politics, fundamentalist religion absolutes, slavish devotion of people to cults east and west, that I plan, in my few years left to me, to make sure that
I stay far far away!

the oringinal sin.....as i see it...is that people pass their shit to thier kids and then they kids grow up and pass it on to theirs!
i read that 80% of battered kids will grow up to batter their kids!!
[nievely i would have thought the opposite!!]
probably many of the baba devoteess and the anti-devotees have had terrible childhoods!

the Bible says that all of us have sinned, the reincanationalists feel that everyone on the planet has murdered someone, in some life, thus
every single one of us has feet *and* legs of CLAY!
i probably, in my mind at least, have committed nearly every single sin in the book!

so i am not a devotee of baba. i just started this forum, as i say above, to get a "core sample" of the present day feelings pro and con about baba.

I once, at a university town, went to a baba group meeting only to incur the authoitativeness of the leader, a apparently typical Indian man who was
very powerful and overbearing, not to my taste at all. end of that.

thus i like individualism.

freestone

I'll aptly note that despite Sanjay Dadlani's accusations of "malicious and defamatory content" on my site, he does not cite the pages or provides any links to examples of such.

Regarding the assocation of the ex-baba administration with fundamentalist Christians, the ex-baba site recently posted a full sized banner to a fundamentalist Christian site on ALL their main pages and quickly removed them after I commented on them: See for yourself.

Far be it for Sanjay (the pervert who went around stalking innocent women and posted his boot-fetish pics on his StreetBitches blog) to point his pudgy Hare Krsna fingers at me and say that I do not provide links to his blog after he deleted my message from his blog saying he does not approve of people advertising their sites on his blog. Take a look at his blog and all Sanjay does is advertise Anti-Sai Sites! Why doesn't Sanjay provide clickable links to my site and to the articles he dissents with? Why doesn't Conny Larsson provide clickable links to my site? Hypocrisy clear and simple.

There is no reasoning with a self-professed drunk and a pathological liar. Period. End of discussion.

Sanjay can spew his toxic waste as a distraction until he is a curmudgeon as old as Priddy, O'Clery, Larsson, et al but the simple fact of the matter is that the anti-Sais have ZERO credibility. Why? Because even though they claim to have "hundreds" (O'Clery claimed thousands) of alleged sexual abuse victims, they cannot come up with even ONE credible corroborative witness. NOT ONE! The only alleged victim who claims to have told someone he was molested by Sai Baba directly after he came out of the interview room was Keith Ord who was in his mid-twenties at the time (1990). Alexandra Nagel claims he told her, yet Ord does not even mention Nagel in his online statement. And Nagel refers to Keith as "K" in her diary as if she is trying to hide Keith's identity for some reason. And making matters even more dubious, it turns out that Joe Moreno was at the ashram at the same time Keith alleges he was mishandled by Sai Baba and talked to Keith in depth about his interviews. During those discussions, Joe says Keith did not mention anything about being molested. In 1993, Keith Ord did an interview with a Dutch journalist (article posted on exbaba.com Dutch site) and told him Sai Baba's genitalia morphed supernaturally from male to female!

Yet the anti-Sais still insist to this day that Keith Ord and all alleged victims are "credible," even though their stories are riddled with these kinds of contradictions.
Yes, in EVERY case that I have researched I have found these type of story anomalies. It is as if each alleged victim is dangling a carrot in front of you saying, "Believe me because I am a "victim," yet they cannot come anywhere near providing any proof. Nor will they file charges in India. Most are past the statute of limitations anyway so they have an easy out as an excuse. But the only two accusers within the statute of limitations refuse to file criminal charges. This would also be because they do not have ONE credible corroborative witness and their accusations and actions after alleged crime are riddled with contradictions which do not make sense and they know it.

Khorramshagol even offered me $1000 to go to India and file charges for him! Apparently he did not care to consult with a lawyer long enough to find out his 1993 accusations were long past the statute of limitations. I guess he thought he had infinite time to file charges and could even send a surrogate to take his deposition! Khorramshahgol (who was 19 at the time he alleges the misconduct) like most alleged victims cared so little about their "trauma", they did not even bother to consult with a lawyer to find out what their rights and legal obligations were as a victim. I must point out here that Khorramshahgol states very clearly in his online statement that he did not realize until over six months after his interview with Sai Baba that he was sexually abused. In fact, he claims he only realized it after seeing a video of one of Sai Baba's materializations which allegedly showed Baba cheating that made him realize Baba's heavy breathing and supposed groping of his male parts were sexual in nature. Khorramshahgol is another one who cannot come up with ONE corroborative witness who can verify his claims. As a sexual abuse victim myself (at the age of 13), I find it extremely hard to believe that Khorramshahgol did not realze he was being sexually groped at the time of his interview as he alleges.

Suffice it to say, all of the claims I have examined are more than dubious and, in my opinion, point to either many accusers who think they were going to hit the jackpot similar to the Catholic cases, or there is an orchestrated campaign being funded by some as yet unknown group or groups who feel threatened by Sai Baba's enormous influence.

Hello Freestone, I agree with much of what you say. Just wanted to comment on the following points you made:

>> well, maybe it is time for me to take off a layer of "gloves" and write a bit about myself!

I essentually side with both sides of the baba controversy! I began this
forum mostly to feel out what people today think and feel about baba.

the "real" baba forums seem to be filled with young devotees that are as fervently pro-baba that they are as "fundamentalist" as any chrasmic christian at their worst! they do not wanna hear a bit about their god
might also have a bowel movement once a day or so!! kill ya for mentioning anything anti-baba. <<


You are right about this. It has also been my experience to receive the foulest of abuse simply for pointing out something "negative" about Sai Baba that is plain as day for all to see. For example, if I point out the fact that Sai Baba is starting to show symptoms of Parkinson's Disease - based on eyewitness reports by devotees as well as official ashram video evidence - I'll immediately get a long and abusive email about how I bring God down to my human level by pointing out material faults in him, and also the old and tired rebuttal about how God suffers human ills when he takes a human form.

As far as I have seen, those Sai devotees/admirers who take it upon themselves to defend Sai Baba do not appear to show even a pinch of the love and compassion that Sai devotees are supposedly well-known for. It would be something if I was a completely ordinary bystander or something, but the fact that I am an ex-devotee really seems to get their goat.


>> and the anti-baba people often are so full of anger, even if rightiously so.

me?
I would not go to India of my own free will, I cannot even go to church comfortably, here in America! I do not believe in Gurus or people who tell you how to live your life.

in fact, my own philosophy runs a bit like this: how in heaven or hell's name can you become saved unless there is a you there to become saved with?! how can you transcend your ego unless you first have an ego?! <<


This is actually a very good question, and it is something that I like to think about in terms of Sai Baba's philosophy/theology. Also, you might be interested to know that other spiritual teachers hold a very different view from Sai Baba. One of the things that makes us "us" is our ego, and to vanguish it as Sai Baba tells us to is tantamount to committing spiritual suicide.

Also, have you noticed how Sai Baba has double-talk: on one hand he exhorts his devotees to be as humble and "lowly" as possible, and the next minute he tells them that they are verily God on earth (except that they just don't know it yet, the twits!). What's a sadhaka to do? How is he supposed to practise humility while walking aorund thinking that he is really God?

This and many other cases of hilarity are just a few reasons why Sai Baba is not taken very seriously amongst the orthodoxy of India's spiritual leaders. I'd suggest that a large part of his appeal is based solely on his "2miracles" and the wide reports of them, most of which have been thoroughly debunked anyway.


>> One of my many hobbies is to try to figure out the motivations of people and to see how and why people follow masters and cults.

I am finding reality to be a strange and sticky thing, as i get ever the older. <<


Although I am relatively tender years I must admit that I am following along the same lines myself, especially about the reasons why people feel the need to join cults. It's one of the reasons why I went back to University to study a BSc. Psychology.


>> the oringinal sin.....as i see it...is that people pass their shit to thier kids and then they kids grow up and pass it on to theirs! <<

Richard Dawkins, who is a fervent atheist and a popular science writer, says the same thing and even postulates biological theoris for this concept.


>> i read that 80% of battered kids will grow up to batter their kids!!
[nievely i would have thought the opposite!!]
probably many of the baba devoteess and the anti-devotees have had terrible childhoods! <<


I can't say that I've had a terrible childhood, but I will say that I came to Sai Baba at a time in my life when I was in great spiritual "need". He seemed to fill in all the gaps at that time so...


>> so i am not a devotee of baba. i just started this forum, as i say above, to get a "core sample" of the present day feelings pro and con about baba.

I once, at a university town, went to a baba group meeting only to incur the authoitativeness of the leader, a apparently typical Indian man who was
very powerful and overbearing, not to my taste at all. end of that.

thus i like individualism. <<

I quite agree. I read your earlier messages and I'm glad to see that you've "officially" taken a neutral position. It seems to me that truth can be best gleaned from an impartial standpoint. That's one of the reason why, despite the fact that I am a practitioner of Gaudiya Vaishnavism in my private spirituality, I try not to let it colour my views on Sai Baba and I comment on Sai Baba's philosophy through an "impartial" philosophical standpoint using mutually-acceptable sources. I sometimes make reference to GV on occsion when the need arises, but not often.

Edited by author 04-30-2006 11:01 PM
Well well, looks like Pinky and Perky are back on their campaign of defamation and slander, which I shall prove when the time comes. In the meantime, it's funny to see them skulking around the Net as a hilarious double act. I already said that I'm not interested in discussing points of their that are largely irrelevant to the Sai Baba controversy, but sometimes their lies just need to be exposed.

Regarding Moreno, his spurious claims that I do not provide examples of his slander and defamation campaign against me is because they are irrelevant to the topic of this board. the topic of this board is "Sathya Sai Baba - who is he?", and consequently his vitriol is by definition irrelevant here. Clearly, as I have already noted, he has nothing to contribute to the larger topic of Sai Baba.

As for his other spurious claim about my deleting his comments from my blog, he never posted a comment. At least, nothing substantial except to post a link back to his own website. At the time I clearly said thatI would not allow just plain link advertising and that substantial comments should be made. Moreno is completely free to comment on any of my blog postings just as long as he has something substantial to say instead of just posting a link back to his site. I already know that he and his two companions have posted anonymous comments at my blog.

Christian Fundamentalism - It looks like Moreno has shot himself in the foot here. According to his own screencaptures, it appears that Exbaba temporarily posted a link/banner for the purposes of offering recovery counselling to anybody (especially ex-devotees) who might want to make use of it. There is nothing surprising about this, recovery and counselling options have been listed several times in ExBaba's history, and many anti-Sai/ex-devotees are registered therapists and counsellors who are willing to offer their services to people who feel disillusioned by Sai Baba's fraudulence.
So what if the organisation in question has a Christian outlook? The way Moreno makes it sound is as if there is a wholesale campaign to convert people to Christianity or something. This is just one more example of how he overinflates minor things to suit his own duplicituous agenda. It's kind of like the way he tries to say that a Muslim (like Afshin Khorramshahgol, who was molested by Sai Baba) is a Fundamentalist Christian because he was educated at a "Christian" school!

He then complaisn that neither myself nor Conny Larsson provide links to his site on our sites. I cannot speak for Larsson but I can say that I don't link to him for the very same reason he doesn't link to my site. :-) The main difference is that I am open and honest about it, instead of constructing a lie (since December 8th, 2004) about being blocked from linking. :-) I also quote to Exbaba/Saiguru articles because they have something I need to reference. I'm afraid that Moreno's articles do not have quite the same reliability.

Enough now, lest we descend into total irrelevance. :-) He finishes off with the typical baseless slander that he is well known for, and which has been refuted already countless times. As I've already noted, there is nothing we can expect from this fellow in terms of a constructive and meaningful discussion. For one thing, he is not a devotee or an ex-devotee of Sai Baba, and he has also received an oiling from Sai Baba, which happens to be a common feature of Sai Baba's molestations.

--

As for Lisa De Witt, she seems to be cutting and pasting and posting and reposting the same thing wherever she goes. Despite her words, she has not investigated the allegations personally. She is on record demanding the personal contact details of Hans De Kraker and, even when all of the details were handed to her on a plate, she never contacted him. Ditto for other molestees, especially Afshin Khorramshahgol. The record also shows that she spent quite a bit of time abusing Afshin, but failed to discuss any of the "important contradictions" that she claims to have found.

After spending nearly six years acquainted with the Sai Baba controversy on both sides of the debate, I can testify that the pro-Sai side are by far the most delinquent. The shallowness of their arguments say it all: high on ad-hominem attacks, extremely low on factual defence of Sathya Sai Baba. That is why I have decided not to spend any needless time directly engaging with these people except to refute the hilarious and comedic arguments they put across. They're not so squeaky-clean either. Since they love to point out (imagined) faults in other people, I can just as easily do the same with their own documented perversions. There is no need to do so because that is not the purpose of this board, so they would do well to stay relevant or else stop participating here. Their recent double-act of posting here adds more fuel to the record of their long history of infecting wherever they go with their poisonous virus of slander and oft-refuted lies.

I see Dadlaniexposed is still trying to distract from the issues. When I first started researching Dadlani et al's claims, I was led to believe by Dadlani, van der Sandt, Hanisch and others that there were all these little boys who had been molested by Sai Baba but that the Indian government would do nothing about it.
I told them that I refused to traumatise children further by interrogating them and that a professional should be interviewing the children if this were in fact true.

Upon closer examination of their claims I realized almost ALL of the accusers were ADULTS over 18 years of age at the time they claim they were abused, including Hans de Kraker, who was in his twenties when he claims Sai Baba abused him. At that point I saw that I was dealing with people who were not being very truthful and none of their stories were adding up. I also felt I was dealing with a possible criminal operation after experiencing their continual harassment and then finding Dadlani on a Disney porn site, two Jesus porn sites and having been informed by a friend who used to be a NSA employee that they usually pass child porn on those porn sites that are called "biblical" sites. Dadlani is being very disingenous as I asked the anti-Sais several times to give me information about de Kraker and others, including any corroborative witnesses who could verify their claims. Whenever the anti-Sais cannot come up with the answers or proof they are asked for, they consistently attack the person asking for proof. As you can see, this is their primary tactic. Here it is, almost four years later and still they cannot come up with the name of the group leader that de Kraker claims he told his story to. I was informed by another source that de Kraker was booted out of the ashram after being part of a group who started spreading stories about Sai Baba, yet de Kraker failed to mention this very important detail in his online statement.

The accusers do not want to answer questions which are inconvenient. They only want to recruit those into their group who will go along with their smear campaign. Dadlani is not interested in the "truth". He, like almost all the anti-Sais, is only interested in being right, regardless of what the truth is.

Sai Baba has an exemplary record as a spiritual leader. He is monitored day in and day out and there are people around him twenty four hours a day. His miracles have been documented by more reputable sources, including the Indian government, than any other figure in history. Since the campaign against Sai Baba has now expanded to include his devotees as well as the Indian government, one can only ask why the accusers just can't seem to come up with the proof that they need.
Not ONE corroborative witness has stood by any of the accusers. The probablility of this occurrence in the case of a REAL sexual assault is very slim, especally considering how thin the curtain is between the interview rooms. Sexual crimes are so vile and humiliating, it is hard to believe that the accusers waited so many years to decide to complain and that no one on the other side of the curtain heard anything.

The burden of proof is on the accusers who are making themselves look more and more suspicious by not filing charges while they enable those like Dadlani to continue to harass and berate those who are seeking to protect the rights of the accuser as well as the accused.

>>I see Dadlaniexposed is still trying to distract from the issues. <<

The issue here is "Sathya Sai Baba - Who is he?" Therefore this site is not about Dadlaniexposed, DeWittexposed, Morenoexposed or anyone else, although there is plenty to expose about the skullduggery of the pro-Sais.

As I noted earlier, pro-Sais seem to have a very troublesome habit of infesting every discussion board that mentions the name of the darkened guru and post irrelevant garbage that means nothing. This is why the other two Quicktopic boards were shut down, because they were spammed relentlessly to death. If this goes on any longer, then it looks like this might be the third Quicktopic board to die at the hands od devious Sai devotees. I hope that will not be the case.

>>When I first started researching Dadlani et al's claims, I was led to believe by Dadlani, van der Sandt, Hanisch and others that there were all these little boys who had been molested by Sai Baba but that the Indian government would do nothing about it. I told them that I refused to traumatise children further by interrogating them and that a professional should be interviewing the children if this were in fact true. <<

There's no record of such wild claims. The record actually shows Lisa De Witt abusing Dadlani et al in vile terms and slanderous ripostes.


>> Upon closer examination of their claims I realized almost ALL of the accusers were ADULTS over 18 years of age at the time they claim they were abused, including Hans de Kraker, who was in his twenties when he claims Sai Baba abused him. At that point I saw that I was dealing with people who were not being very truthful and none of their stories were adding up. I also felt I was dealing with a possible criminal operation after experiencing their continual harassment and then finding Dadlani on a Disney porn site, two Jesus porn sites and having been informed by a friend who used to be a NSA employee that they usually pass child porn on those porn sites that are called "biblical" sites. <<


Witness Lisa De Witt's slander in action! It is beyond me to note the amazing number of times that this incredibly ridiculous story has been refuted, yet Lisa De Witt still shamelessly repeats it as if it were actual fact, what to speak of actually proving any of these child-porn claims! Despite what her "NSA friend" (yeah right) told her, Lisa De Witt is on record as stating that she could find no such material in said groups, yet this doesn't stop her from repeating her scandalous lies time and time again. By way of contrast, Lisa De Witt was reportedly found on an alt.sex.support.boy-lovers site, but you don't find anyone bringing this up repeatedly when our presence here requires critically analysing Sai Baba.


>> Dadlani is being very disingenous as I asked the anti-Sais several times to give me information about de Kraker and others, including any corroborative witnesses who could verify their claims. Whenever the anti-Sais cannot come up with the answers or proof they are asked for, they consistently attack the person asking for proof. <<

The records show that it is Lisa De Witt who is being disingenuous, not I. The record is there, for all the public to see. Whatever I have said in my previous posts is proved by the record, and nothing can deny that fact. Sorry. :-)


>> As you can see, this is their primary tactic. Here it is, almost four years later and still they cannot come up with the name of the group leader that de Kraker claims he told his story to. I was informed by another source that de Kraker was booted out of the ashram after being part of a group who started spreading stories about Sai Baba, yet de Kraker failed to mention this very important detail in his online statement. <<

And four years ago, Lisa was given De Kraker's personal email address (several times actually) so that she could contact him to clarify her confusion. She never did so. Three guesses why.

When they come out with such fanciful theories about Christian Fundamentalism as the heart of the Anti-Sai Agenda, it's no wonder that they don't care much for truth and clarification! :-)


>> The accusers do not want to answer questions which are inconvenient. They only want to recruit those into their group who will go along with their smear campaign. <<

Yet again, the record has shown that anti-Sais have answered all questions that are able to be answered. The same does not hold true for pro-Sais, whose record shows a shocking disparity whenever they are questioned about Sai Baba and his antics.

I wonder where Lisa De Witt is coming out with all this wrong information when the public record clearly contradicts her words.


>> Dadlani is not interested in the "truth". He, like almost all the anti-Sais, is only interested in being right, regardless of what the truth is. <<


The truth, at the end of the day, is that Sai Baba is not God when he claims to be such. At the end of the day, this is the conclusion that we all arrive at. When you accept that Sai Baba is not God, you will then be forced to de facto admit that he is a fraud for stating such for so many years with absolute impunity.


>> Sai Baba has an exemplary record as a spiritual leader. <<


Not really. He has been criticised by his own villagers since the 1940s onwards.


>> He is monitored day in and day out and there are people around him twenty four hours a day. His miracles have been documented by more reputable sources, including the Indian government, than any other figure in history. <<


More repetitive and oft-refuted propaganda. Fo the record, Jesus Christ is much more famous than Sai Baba and thus defeats him in a casual historical analysis.


>> Since the campaign against Sai Baba has now expanded to include his devotees as well as the Indian government, one can only ask why the accusers just can't seem to come up with the proof that they need.
Not ONE corroborative witness has stood by any of the accusers. The probablility of this occurrence in the case of a REAL sexual assault is very slim, especally considering how thin the curtain is between the interview rooms. Sexual crimes are so vile and humiliating, it is hard to believe that the accusers waited so many years to decide to complain and that no one on the other side of the curtain heard anything.

The burden of proof is on the accusers who are making themselves look more and more suspicious by not filing charges while they enable those like Dadlani to continue to harass and berate those who are seeking to protect the rights of the accuser as well as the accused. <<

This is just oft-repeated and oft-refuted stuff that has been answered countless times before with no response by pro-Sais, therefore I'm not going to spend any further time flogging dead horses when there is much more new ground to cover.

Freestone, I'd appreciate it very much if you could step in here with a message for the pro-Sais to pipe down with their propaganda and ad-hominem tactics of argument. I don't believe that any mature and fruitful discussion can take place when the same old tired stuff is repeated againd and again with no respite. This is one of the problems that caused the other two Quicktopic boards to die, because of the misbehaviour of pro-Sai devotees and admirers. I'd also appreciate it if discussions were limited to on-topic subjects rather than wild character assassination that has nothing to do with the topic of this board. Thank you.

Hey Sanjay, YOU are the one who keeps trying to change the subject with your abusive ad hominem attacks and lies.

The ONLY thing the record shows is that Sanjay Dadlani aka Sai Baba Exposed aka saiexposed420 is a pathological liar who admitted to downloading child porn while falsely claiming he worked for the IWF. His lies are clearly documented on saisathyasai.com yet the mental case continues to pretend he has not been exposed for the liar that he is. As you can see, Sanjay Dadlani has been abusing people in yahoogroups with his ultra foul mouth since he joined Khorramshahgol's yahoogroup in approx. 2000. Even the anti-Sais complained about his lies and abusive behavior. The misogynistic streetbitches blog (Remember, "They want it" Sanjay?) was his latest fiasco and one does have to wonder how long it will be before Sanjay is put in a jail cell for his harassing tactics which obviously are not confined to the internet.

Edited by author 05-01-2006 05:27 PM
>> Hey Sanjay, YOU are the one who keeps trying to change the subject with your abusive ad hominem attacks and lies. <<


*sigh*

I'm actually quite busy these days with some serious personal projects going on and yet again I have to tiredly point out that the subject of this board is "Sathya Sai Baba - who is he?" Just take a look at /m24 , it shows proof of how how Sai Baba's defenders perniciously stalk people all over the Net and infecting everyone with their oft-refuted propaganda. They always cast the first stone and then pretend to look innocent.

It looks like Pinky just couldn't help writing more irrelevant and unproven nonsense that is against the topic of this board. I'll expect Perky to come along in a matter of minutes.

If you two find yourselves pathologically unable to hold a conversation or a discussion - as your online record shows - please leave. Sai devotees/admirers have a long and sordid history of driving discussion forums off the rails and this is just the latest episode. If you cannot bring yourselves to discuss the reality of Sai Baba the fraud guru, go away and stop stalking me. Creeps.

hi all....

I was reminded today about meat eating and what baba says about it.

what i *wanted*, but could not find in Google was the baba quote that i read once.

"ANYONE WHO EATS MEAT IS NOT A DEVOTEE OF MINE"!!

I will have to ask someone else to look this up and to see if baba actually says this.

but look at what i did find!..........


[quote]
The said Sai Baba insists that all devotees (followers of Sai Baba) be vegetarian at least and vegan vegetarian at best. His claim is that one is purified by doing so, that meat is impure and corrupting.
[/quote]

from baba himslef
[quote]
Today as an offering to Swami, give up meat eating, consuming liquor and smoking. By renouncing these three, you will benefit yourselves as well as society and the nation. If you wish to carry out Swami's aim, renounce from this moment itself these three bad practices. Do not put it off to tomorrow. Take the resolve from this moment. Expecting that you will carry out Swami's wish and thereby promote the well being of your family and the nation, I bless all of you.

Divine Discourse: November 23, 1994
[/quote]

and....
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:5dsfZT...gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=22

[this is a long long one, folks, only 10% of the page is below, this is what baba thinks about food and health!


ooooh BOY!!
[quote]

  


Excessive and frequent consumption of milk and its products awakens and aggravates the rajasic and tamasic qualities in man. A diet extra rich in milk, curds and ghee cannot be called satwic because it awakens the passionate nature in man and also promotes heart and other diseases. We must not forget that we absorb an incorporeal type of food through the other sense organs as well.

“Foods which increase life, purity, strength, health, joy and cheerfulness, which is oleaginous and savoury, substantial and agreeable, are dear to the satwic people.” Gita chapter 17, verse 8


 
   
Tamasic Foods
All stale, tasteless, putrid foods, like pickles, cheese, all alcoholic beverages, sedative drugs, tobacco, dagga, cocaine, meat, fish, eggs and all foods that slow you down physically and mentally
 
 




Process of Cooking

The food should not be overheated, or over cooked, low temperature, slow cooking is safer and more nutritious, also at least 50% of the food should be raw, like salads, sprouts, fruit, nuts and certain raw vegetables. Stir fry is also better than fully cooked foods.

Ingredients

Excess of oil, butter, cream should be avoided, for a balanced diet. Care should be taken to consume only 1500 to 2000 calories per day, divided so that only 50 grams of protein are consumed (excess protein cannot be stored so it is passed out in the urine along with extra calcium resulting in osteoporosis – thinning of your bones) the remaining 1300 to 1800 calories should be mainly carbohydrate with a minimum of fat which should be derived from vegetables like olive oil, avacado, nuts, and seeds. Hydrogenated fats and oils are harmful.

.

Extracts from Gita Vahini, Chapter 26

“Krishna ! You said that the Daivic and Ausuric natures of man are the consequences of acts and feelings that had impact on the individual in previous births. Since it is impossible to escape from such impacts, what is the fate of those who are condemned to carry this burden with them? Or can their consequences be mitigated? If such exist, please tell me about them so that I could save myself thereby.” Arjuna asked thus in order to draw out from the Lord the remedy for all mankind.

Krishna gave an immediate answer. There are three types of Gunas, sathwic, rajasic and thamasic. They are based on the anthahkarana, the inner consciousness. That too is dependent on the intake of food. You are what you feed on, your activities shape your nature. So at least in this birth, by regulating food and activity (aahaara and vihara) man can overcome the Aasuric tendencies that tend to prevail upon him. He can promote sathwic tendencies through planned self-effort”. This advice was tendered lovingly by the Lord to the eager inquirer, Arjuna.

“Rajasic food is the opposite of the Sathwic. It is too salty, too sweet, too hot, too sour, and too odorous. Such food excites and intoxicates.

“

The cause of all conflicts in the world is the food one eats, some eat sathwic, others rajasic and tamasic foods, because they eat food in these 3 different denominations, they have 3 different types of behaviour. Because of what they finally become, difference of opinion and conflicts arise.

There can never be a bond of understanding between persons who eat satwic food and another who eats rajasic foods. Maybe for a short while they will be friends, but eventually they will drift apart. There can be a lasting friendship between 2 people who eat satwic food; likewise 2 people who eat rajasic foods can strike a bond of friendship, however eventually rajasic people will disagree. “if you want to strike a bond of friendship with God your thoughts must be such that it is completely divine. God is satwic in nature. If you wish to strike a bond of friendship with God, your behaviour must reflect only satwic qualities.”

“When we sit down to eat food, we feel light and energetic. When we complete our meal we must also feel light and energetic. So sathwic foods are all those foods which make us light, gives you sufficient energy and removes laziness. As far as possible we must cook food in oil, not in fat (cold pressed olive oil seems to be the best).

True sadhakas must eat only once a day. A person who eats twice a day is a bhogi or a man of pleasure and a person who eats 3 times a day is a rogi or a sick person.

“Meat develops the demonic quality in you and food which is excessively hot or even sour can be likened to meat and wine. Pickles are literally soaked in salt and an excess of salt is worse than wine.” The above foods promote the quality of jealousy in you and jealousy is the product of the 6 bad qualities present in everyone.

An excess in salt and meat gives you the quality of jealousy.

“The first step in the transformation of the mind is do not criticize or harm others. Criticizing others ia a sin of great magnitude. If you want to attain moksha you have to transform the mind and this can only take place when you partake of a satwic diet. Satwic diet purifies your thoughts and helps to focus your thinking. Smoking destroys the kundalini shakthi that you possess. Smoking also destroys the spiritual vibrations in your surroundings.

Extract from Sandeha Nivarini, page 43

“Try to prevent the 5 sins that the body commits; killing, adultery, theft, drinking intoxicants and eating of flesh. It is a great help for the highest life if these also are kept as far away as possible.”

In an interview with a strict vegetarian Swami told him that although he was a vegetarian he was not taking in satwic food at all. Swami told him not to have highly spiced pickles, garlic and onions.


Summer Course, 1979, page 91

“One who controls and regulates the actions of others is called YAMA. One who controls himself and regulates his own actions possesses the quality of SAMYAMA. There should be discipline and regulation in life in accordance with self-imposed constraints. These self-imposed constraints constitute the TAPAS of an individual. An unrestrained life is an immoral life. A spiritual aspirant need not live in monastic isolation. He should practice universal compassion, which is nothing but an intense desire for the welfare of the entire humanity. FOOD plays an important part in the cultivation of universal compassion. Satwic food enables a Sadhaka to apprehend the omnipresent reality of Divinity. Satwic food is conducive to the progressive attainment of the four states of spirituality, viz.

 

The solution:

“Uncooked food, nuts and fruit, germinating pulses are the best. Use these at least one meal, say, for the dinner at night, this will ensure long life.” SS Speaks Vol, 15, page 115


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Rajasic And Tamasic Foods - The Danger

Protein

The human body cannot store protein.

Average human of 70 kg weight only needs 50gm protein per day.

Animal protein is dangerous because some of its amino acids are aromatic (ring structures are in themselves carcinogenic) and these phenol or cresol rings have to be broken down into ammonia, urea and uric acid (ammonia is a potent promotor of cell proliferation and consequently cancer especially in the colon)

We only have a certain amount of enzymes and consequently a fair percentage of a high protein meal ends up in the colon, where it is digested by bacteria and the ammonia, urea, etc. promote cell growth, are toxic, causes DNA changes and eventually cancer.

Excess protein is digested and stored as glycogen in the liver or as fat droplets in fat cells, excess protein also inhibits calcium absorption.
Two times increase in protein intake causes 50% increase in calcium excretion.

If you eat 3 types of grain at different times of the day or a grain and a legume per meal, eg chick peas and rice, this is all the protein you need. The meal must be fully integrated. Fiber is both soluble and non-soluble. These help to prevent various colonic diseases. Whole grain is not as good as ground grain as it goes right through undigested, so it only plays a partial role in digestion. Integrated, by this I mean that all components of the ground grain must be added simultaneously in the preparation of the meal (eg. Stone ground flour). It is useless to add fiber later, etc. Please note that although plants do not produce cholesterol, the surface of all grain have cholesterol binding sites.
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Rajasic And Tamasic Foods - The Danger

Cancer

“The present fertilizers are full of defects. As a result you find an increase in the number of concern cases and heart complaints. To this day, there has been no doctor who has come up with a cure for cancer. What is the cause of cancer? Somebody might say eating betel leaf gives you cancer. A few others say cancer is the direct result of smoking beedies and cigarettes. And some might say that the air around you is polluted so you get cancer. All said and done, what you must understand is, to a limited extent, these factors might be contributing in a small way. But they are not the primary cause of cancer. The main cause of cancer is sugar. In order to produce commercial sugar, a lot of chemicals such as powered bone are used in the process. And this substance, as you ingest the sugar, might become lodged in any part of the body and create problems.” Know Thy Self, Sathya Sai Baba, 10 August 1993, Page 149



Anticancer promoters : Fiber, vitamin A, C, E (prevents oxidation of fat)
Cancer is on the increase in countries where there is high intake of animal fat like Netherlands, Denmark, UK, Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland, Ireland, US, Belgium, Australia. South Africa is also on the way up because of high fat intake. The problem with saturated fats is that it promotes ischeamic heart and cerebral disease. If you have high blood pressure you have 2.2. times higher risk of getting a heart attack. A smoker has 1.9 times higher risk of a heart attack. If you have high cholesterol there is 1.75 times higher risk of a heart attack. If you combine the above 3 factors operating simultaneously there is an 8.5 times higher risk of a heart attack. Males between 25-55 years have a 4 times higher risk than females. Vegetarians have a very low risk provided the rest of their life style like alcohol, smoking, and stress are absent or low. Vegans have the lowest incidence, provided other risk factors are absent.


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Rajasic And Tamasic Foods - The Danger

 

Hard cheese has already been fully digested by bacteria, it cannot be digested any further by the human enzyme system, so a golden rule should, if it cannot rot, it is not fit for human consumption.




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Rajasic And Tamasic Foods - The Danger

Meat

“It is significant that those who live on vegetarian food are less prone to diseases while meat eaters are subject to various diseases. Man should consume what is in accord with the needs of the human body. Doctors speak about proteins. Are there not proteins in vegetables, milk, and curds and pulses? Non-vegetarian food not only affects the body but also the mind. Food, Head, God, these three are inter-related. By consuming animal food, animal tendencies are aroused. As is your food, so are your thoughts.” SS Speaks, Vol 23, page 81
 [/quote]


I am reminded of a couple that I knew, in 1970s Rochester new york. the Zen center was active then, as well as a number of other eastern guru-driven groups.
One night as I visited their apartment, she gave to me an announcement that they were going to go to the evening, daily, 7 PM meditation service and she said that both of them were only going for the meditation and NOT for any of the belief systems or the "styles of behavior that the devotees did.

So for my year I came to see them about once a month, or so. I watched an, to me, an AMAZING thing! slowly, ever so slowly, both of them began to wear orange or saffron clothes! slowly, if i saw them eating a meal, there was brown rice in it.
by the end of that year they were 100% devotees, mind body and soul!

down the posts, a few posts back, "Exposed" and others, I siad that i was "neutral", offically.


hoooooooever!!

---somewhat more "off of the record" I would have to say that baba is a tea bag steeped in the hot water of the culture of india and 50% to 80% of what he says and belives in is Mother India Speaking!
Thus...yet another small topic...I have read of how he does, or used to, marry 5,000 couples in one ceremony and that he has said that the most important worldly act that one can ever ever do is to marry!

then he says that the internet is not worth anyone's time nor computers either!

just what *would* he think of single batchelor meat eating, computer game
[morrowind, neverwinter nights] me?!

my point?
--that baba is for India, not for me or maybe many in the West, thus i am "vaccinated" from being a dovotee even if i wanted to be!
I like my individualism, my western free will mind, thank you.

[freestone's baba-o-meter unoficially is registering to the left of the 50%
Reading, on the Dial, even if baba is OK and not the "pervert" that is inferred to him being!]
registers way lefward on the "anti" side, as even my lung damage, those 20 days in the hospital, in 1993, cannot take for even a few minutes, INCENSE in any form or amount!!
thus I am "anti" by default, even before I were to even to begin to investigate him.

but just because i cannot tolerate the hot hot mexican foods, i do not put down mexican foods for everyone!! just for me, at least, my OWN baba-meter
is on the negative side of the middle!

freestone

Edited by author 05-01-2006 06:51 PM
Hello Freestone,

>> I was reminded today about meat eating and what baba says about it. what i *wanted*, but could not find in Google was the baba quote that i read once.
"ANYONE WHO EATS MEAT IS NOT A DEVOTEE OF MINE"!! I will have to ask someone else to look this up and to see if baba actually says this. but look at what i did find!.......... <<

I think that this is a great posting full of some good material which wil l come in handy. By the way you might be interested to see what I've already written on this matter:

The Meat Problem for Sai Baba's devotees

Addendum to 'The Meat Problem'

It appears that this might be the quote that you're looking for? :

"Calling themselves Sai devotees or devotees of Raama and Krishna, they fatten on chicken. How can they be deemed Sai devotees? How can God accept such a person as a devotee? Therefore, whether they are devotees in India or outside, they should give up from this instant meat eating ... Therefore, those who aspire to become true devotees of God have to give up meat, liquor and smoking ... Today, as an offering to Svaami, give up meat eating, consuming liquor and smoking." - 69th Birthday Discourse, 23/11/1994.

I think I have also read a more direct quote ("Meat-eaters are NOT my devotees!") somewhere in the Sanathana Sarathis, but I'll have to find it when I ge