An almost hour lecture with Iris at UC Santa Barbara

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h8LVorTecE&feature=related

she was murdered by evil. +(BLESS HER SOUL & PRAY FOR PROTECTION OF HER SON. AMEN.)

What's going on.
This site seems to have been hijacked by no-gooders.Another insult to the memory of this great woman. A great insult

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--- On Tue, 7/1/08, QT - tonybattery <qtopic-28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com> wrote:
From: QT - tonybattery <qtopic-28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com>
Subject: Iris Chang 1968-2004 (formerly "Why Did Iris Chang Kill Herself?") To: "QT topic subscribers" <qtopic-subs@quicktopic.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 10:06 PM

< replied-to message removed by QT >

QT, what is this? Is an oriental sending us a message in Chinese or Japanese? I don't get it.

Susan,

Thank you for the info on "Nanking." I couldn't believe the movie had disappeared but there has been no publicity about it in Atlanta. Hopefully, it will soon get more distribution.

Hold2File
 

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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hi Michael - sorry I missed answering your email. I did not pick it up until the weekend. I have to admit I am more and more of an introvert as I get older and communicating on venues like this is fine with me. Cold weather makes me want to stay inside. Maybe when the weather is nicer.

Hold2file - "Nanking" (the Ted Leonsis version with Woody Harrelson) only opened in DC the week of February 10. My husband went to see it and thought it was very well done and thought everyone should see it. He is just now finishing up the book. As I said - I can't and don't see movies like this. One of my friends said she picked up an autobiography of Minnie Vautrin. I'll ask her the name of it.

swordstoploughshares,

I finally finished reading "Sophie's World."
Thank you for mentioning it. I graduated high school in 1965 so that much of the "fiction" literature written since then is not something I find out about. However, I am very thankful that I have my 60 year old perspective.

The book is as much of a "history of philosophy" as Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and reaches the conclusion that who we are and how we interpret "reality" is totally dependent upon our relationships with others. (That should not be a "plot spoiler.")

"Zen" was awesome in that it "explained" the shortcomings of Aristotelian logic. But what was even more awesome was that the second time I read it 30 years later in 2007, I actually think I understood it.

The difference is not so much that I am now 60 years old, but that I have the advantage that Pirsig and Gaarder did not have is the availability of Quantum Mechanic's String Theory as a metaphor.

Quantum String theory as a metaphor unites the Ying and Yang of philosophy by making compatible the Aristotelian binary view with the Asian metaphysical view of the world.

Basic String concept:
1) Quantum Strings exist only in relationship to other Quantum Strings. There is NO such thing as a Quantum Singularity. The “tree that falls in the forest that no one hears” not only doesn’t make a sound, but the tree does NOT exist.
2) For a Quantum String to exist, its relationship with other particles must be greater than the Decoherence threshold (the effects boundary separating single versus multiple events).
3) The only valid way to describe or predict the behavior of Quantum Strings is in terms of statistical probability rather than Absolutes of a specific String.

String theory explains EVERYTHING, including how and why God exists.

Spoiler alert: If you read the updated version of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" be prepared for the Addendum taking you from sheer joy to sheer terror and back to joy in the last two pages. Life has not been easy for Pirsig, but his justifiable faith in humanity remains.

My apologies to this message board because this posting is the ONLY way that I can communicate with "swordstoploughshares" IS this message board for her protection as well as mine. I am a 60 year old Scoutmaster and she is still a high school student and this altruistic barrier is for the protection of both of us.

Hold2File@comcast.net

Update question:
I was expecting a "major movie release" in December 2007 of a dramatic version of the story based upon Iris' book.
Thanks to the IMDB database I now "understand" that "The Rape of Nanking" was and HBO documentary and the dramatic movie was "Nanking" with Jürgen Prochnow and Woody Harrelson that supposedly was released in September 2007.

Why was there NO publicity that I saw for the movie "Nanking?"

Why is it not available at Blockbuster if it came out (and disappeared) 5 months ago?

Was the movie THAT bad (as opposed to a horrifying subject) that it didn't even go "direct to video?"

Aloha from Hawaii Susan, I was a professional counselor for 14 years and I've learned that many people in our society have some sort of emotional or mental problems. But not to the extent where they would kill themselves. When Iris was in Hawaii, I asked her if she feared for her life in that the Japanese might try to kill her. She told me that she thinks about that all the time. And that she is very fearful of the Japanese. When you read her book you learn what the Japanese are capable of doing. And they will do anything to "Save Face". Carlos

susan can you meet for a drink today in silver spring, bethesda, rockville, or DC?

Michael - you missed the showing in Maryland. It was shown twice in one day and that was it. Carlos - I did not go and see it but I had friends that did, and they thought it was well done.

I promised to give a book report on "Finding Iris Chang" written by college friend Paula Kamen. I have mixed feelings about the book - I am not sure Iris would have wanted herself this exposed, but I found there was much to learn about mental illness, Asians, bi-polar disease, and other stuff. She seemed like one of those geniuses that burned the candle at both ends.

Even though I thought Kamen was a bit whiney, when she compared her self to Iris (they went to college together), I thought she did her research well, and shows how Iris hid her illness until it was too late.
 
Asian Americans and Asians have that mind set to suppress and not talk about problems. In fact, it was pointed out in the book, suicide is almost considered an honorable way to deal with your problems in Asia. Asian-Americans at least, recognize this as a problem. Iris did have schizophrenia - bi-polar disease. She was apparently was one of those very intense, quirky individuals anyway. She had numerous fertility treatments. What came out in the book was that she did not give birth to her son, but it was a surrogate who carried the child. After all the fertility treatments, and getting her son, she went on a grueling exhausting 65 day book tour. Her husband (who was interviewed for the book) said he noticed a change after she got back from the tour. What ever causes people's brains to push people over to becoming physically ill, happened to her, perhaps a snowball effect of fertility treatments and exhaustion. When she was diagnosed as bi-polar, she apparently plotted taking her own life for weeks. She thought the US government was after her, and her husband thought that Bush getting elected in 2004 fueled her paranoia. I guess the biggest shame is to lose someone with such knowledge and passion.

In one of the weird coincidences of life, her husband married a Chinese woman named Iris about a year later.

Susan, I live in Maryland too. I'll see the movie.

has any one seen the video on youtube of the limo driver shooting kennedy? check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WCc_y5k0n8

I appreciate your reply, thank you for your comments.

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Sorry, Thomas, my take on her death, which with 25 cents won't buy a cup of coffee, is right next to Craig's, sir. I am sure there was motive, opportunity and means to 'assassinate' (sp?) her if 'they' wanted to but the accounts I've read, and I haven't read everything or really researched it, point to suicide. I suppose we will never know for sure, will we? (ala kennedy)...
Anyway, I still keep this QuickTopic topic in my view because of the beauty (I first saw Iris in a taped interview a few months after she died on PBS and was fascinated by her intelligence, subject matter and, I admit, her beauty, as some others should own up to...) and her death was shocking and somewhat mysterious. Thank you, administrator, for allowing this topic to go on. There are still, sometimes, some interesting comments that come in, aren't there?

And sheep are lead mindlessly to slaughter, open your eyes and your mind.

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen. This troubled woman took her own life as the police and coroners report concluded.

hello - I've only recently learned about the death of Iris and heard about the premiere of her movie. It was through facebook where I learned about the movie, then I progressively learned about her life and death.
I must say I am deeply saddened and shocked at the fact that Iris commited suicide. Personally, I haven't slept well a couple nights just reflecting on Iris's research, her message and how everyone must have reacted.

Many of you have different opinions on why she might have killed herself. One of you even called her a pyscho for leaving her toddler. To be honest, I wondered the same, but yet I also understand there are people who hold different values and priorities. I'm sure she was a loving mother, yet a part of her must have thought at the time it was best to leave her son. In her mind, this was probably a way of protecting her family. Iris was ill, so this could have led her to uncountable reasons to justify her decision.

Through what I have learned about Iris, I am convinced she had lived for her work, research and wanted to make a statement in society, but in the end, this heroine is still human with emotions and everyday problems.

I have mood swings and do things that I regret the next day. In Iris's case, this went to another level. There are so many aspects of her death that I still want to know about. Please keep contributing ideas. I'm tuned in!

Thanks Susan, but I'm in Hawaii and Maryland is a
little to far to travel to see a movie. But I think
you should go. Sometimes the truth of what is can be
difficult to hear. I hope they mention about the
Japanese connection. Everyday here in Hawaii I'm
confronted with the corruption of the Japanese. And
also, when they come to Hawaii they treat caucasion
people like dogs. And they only do this because they
outnumber us. If it was the other way around, they
would act like innocent kittens. Enjoy the snow,
Carlos
--- QT - Susan
<qtopic-28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
>



      ________________________________________________________________ ___________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Sorry - yes History Television. Actually there is a sceening this Saturday in the Maryland suburbs, where I live. Honestly, I don't think I can bear to sit through it because I am a chicken. I have seen some of those films of burying people alive and I am still haunted by those clips. Some of my friends are going. Here's the information:
DECEMBER 8, SATURDAY

“Iris Chang” documentary film show

Where: Potomac Community Center , 11315 Falls Road, Potomac , MD 20854

1st Screening: 5 p.m.-6:30 pm ; 2nd Show time: 7 p.m- 8:30 pm

Admission: Open to the public and donations accepted. FREE for students and accompanied teachers and those by invitations only.

"Iris Chang" is a feature length docudrama of a courageous young American writer who delved into one of the darkest chapters of human history and uncovered the truth about the terrible events in Nanjing , China during the winter of 1937-38.

If the movie about Iris Chang doesn't touch on the fact that she was possibly murdered by the Japanese, then what good is it about making this movie??? Irish Chang would be with us today if it wasn't for the Japanese.

I was absolutely ecstatic when I read that a movie had been made about Iris. Unfortunately, the movie airs on History Television, not the History Channel. Living in Texas, unfortunately, I do not receive that channel. Should it come out on DVD or anything of the like please inform me. I think it is high time they made a movie about Mrs. Chang. I have witnessed first-hand in my high school the collapse of literature and the death of books. A sad fact of reality is, a book can hardly change the world anymore. For the sake of recording the epic tale of Homer's "Iliad," Greek scholars adapted the Greek alphabet, a cornerstone of Western Civilisation. Nowadays, unfortunately, many find books lacking in luster. Perhaps movies will take up the torch of influence...

World premier of the movie Iris Chang Rape of Nanking is on December 13 8PM on the History Channel.

http://www.irischangthemovie.com/home.html

I am almost done with Paula Kamen's book. I'll give a short take on it when I am finished.

This message is for Seattle Hun.

You need to go educate yourself and learn about history before making such comments about anothers passion and achievements in life. Iris Chang wrote about facts and not made up stories because she was unstable. So what is there to validate? Pyscho is harsh, do you not agree? Is this what you teach your kids to call others???

Jeff,

Thank you. You did get the joke.


-------------- Original message --------------
From: QT - Jeff Johns <qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com>

< replied-to message removed by QT >

'blank', your comments on my comments were interesting. A 'detached analytical side'? You have this side? I do, too.
And 'wondering if her actions were imaged' ? 'imagined' ?
And where is trumancapotewhenyouneedhim?
dead

Jeff,

You are bringing out the detached analytical side of me.

"Dramatic tension" is an essential element of all story telling.
Unfortunately, even if there WAS documentation of Iris being assassinated, wondering if her actions were imaged or real paranoia would make a much "better story."

It would make a great movie, even an epilogue had to be added if the "truth" ever came out.

However, thinking about it from a detached perspective makes me disgusted with my cynicism. I guess that is why I am not a writer. Where's Truman Capote when we need him?






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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Finally, others are agreeing with me that Iris was killed by the stupid Japanese. I'm sure they were Yakuza related. They have so much power in Japan. And also a lot of power in Hawaii. In Hawaii we have thousands of illegal Japanese working for many Japanese businesses that service the tourist industry. And they are able to get away with it because their pay is deposited into their bank accounts in Japan. So here these people don't pay any Federal or State income taxes in Hawaii. This has been going on for years and the State of Hawaii is losing millions for these people not paying any taxes. And also many of the Japanese companies aren't paying taxes as well. I was told by a very good source that they aren't even registered to do business here. What corruption. And Americans are so stupid to let them get away with this. I've lived in Japan several times and the government would never allow thousands of Americans to work in Japan without a visa. I think we have much more to worry about the Japanese doing harm to this country more so then Bin Laden. Has anyone ever asked why the Japanese were never prosecuted for war crimes??? In Burma Aba was responsible for the deaths of over 50,000 Australian, American and European POW's. And he recently died of old age and he was never prosecuted for working these guys to death. I think we need to be more aware of who is the real enemy.

hithero isn't a word, hitherto is...sorry

hold2file
I agree with your thoughts that a Japanese murder/assasination would be a
'good' movie but wouldn't a movie about a scholar who emotionally documents a hithero scarcely publicized state slaughter and torture of another state's people who, herself, encounters personal emotions that overpower her to the point of suicide be a more real goddamned movie? About real people and real emotions? (and not just dramatic, conflicting politics/POV's ?) well? huh?

Susan,

Thank you for the link to the review. (I had to do a search for "Iris Chang" in the SFGate to find it for those who have trouble getting it.)

After reading the shallowness of this "biography" I remain convinced that someday a director of the caliber of Brian DePalma will do a biography movie about Iris being murdered by Japanese nationalists. Tragically, THAT is the simplest and most rational explanation.

Pranoia is NOT a warped state of mind if you are afraid of documented sociopaths and killers.

Here's a link to a review of the book:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...11/11/RV3GSSEKA.DTL

Edited by author 11-10-2007 10:27 PM
Susan, please read it and give us your opinion of it.
The consensus seems to be that it portrays Chang negatively (suicidal) and hopes to succeed on its notoriety.
Quick Topic Iris Chang players: would or could you accept the notion that Iris had real emotional problems related to her own personal life that would have led to her suicide?
I know that is possibly the crux of this Topic...
I, personally, believe she took her own life due to personal problems. acomplexyetsimplesuicide
So,so depressingly true. But hard to accept.

I just picked up a book at Borders tonight called "Finding Iris Chang" by Paula Kamen. Kamen was a friend of hers who was trying to find out what went wrong. I really don't know anything about the book, never heard of it, and would have overlooked it completely if my husband had not pointed it out. I'll let you know what I think after I read it. Does anyone else know anything about it?

I question your judgement on whom/who the psycho is!
So if Iris is the psycho what were the Japanese who killed innocent people ? ( note i mentioned the past tense, not present).
I have nothing against the Japanese people of now,I lived there and it is beautiful.
Yet the innocent killings needed to be heard,like Bosnia,Sudan,Eire etc...

I sense you have something against her for her ousting the truth.
I hope you do not get condemed for mentioning the truth.You need to choose your words more carefully and rid your hate dear child.

You are right about being skeptical.

Except your questioning that "anyone who offs themselves with a toddler at home" is precisely why so many suspect that Iris was murdered.

There is too much rationality in her book (and documentation for her conclusions) and too much concern for humanity in her words and in her voice in the sound bites I have heard to think that she could commit suicide.
Granted, human beings are capable of actions that are beyond human beings being able to anticipate. (This is why you can't legislate to prevent stupidity.)

Iris's dedication and research irritated a lot of people who want to continue to deny what she publicized. The atrocities and the attitude of such people are precisely the abilities that would lend themselves to murdering Iris.

Your comments and conclusions, however, great put your judgment and propriety in question.

If you had read the book, you would understand how mistaken you are. If there is a "hidden "Shogun empathy" in your attitude, you need to be ashamed.

The truth does not condemn "modern" Japan. Only denial of the truth is condemnation.





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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Iris Chang was a psycho. I have two toddlers at home. No matter what she may have "brought out in the open", anyone who offs themselves with a toddler at home is not be commended. She is to be named what she is: One SICK psycho. As a result, someone needs to question the validity of all her prior works for the biases of an unstable psycho.

The Seattle Hun

No one has provided access to the video I requested. But I have a link to an Iris Chang video, which I assume y'all have seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fzbUoQdio
Watch and wonder.

I've been a tourist/visiting relatives in China for nearly 2 months now. It's very true that China does have a problem with safety. Sadly, with a population of 1.3 billion, it's a very hard thing to control. Is the Nanking Memorial still open? I was told it was closed till this winter, the 70th Anniversary of the Rape of Nanking. If it is open, I should very much like to visit it. Sadly, I've but 3 more nights in Nanjing, and have lent my camera to another, but it would still mean a lot if I could visit the memorial. I hear they opened a wing dedicated to Iris, she well deserves it; I should very much like to pay my respects. Recently, I found a song book of old Chinese songs from WWII. It was a book of 100 songs that was published in 2005 to commemorate the 60th Anniversary of the Victory against Japan. Reading the song names (though there were but a handful I could read completely as my Chinese character recognition is relatively poor, the results of only a year of study) brought me to tears. The Southern Song general, Yue Fei once said to the invading Jin: "Give me back my mountains and my rivers." Though China is much changed since then (as well as from 1945) one can see clearly that those mountains and rivers are worth fighting and dying for. Knowing that almost hopeless Chinese soldiers, my brethren, once sang those songs as they marched into sure defeat brought tears to my eyes. But one's home is the whole world to them, and should they die defending it, there's always honour in that. The Roman maxim holds true: "The greatest honour is to die defending the Fatherland." Of course, this trip, I see China much changed. When the Western Powers, Russia, and Japan divided China amongst themselves, the Chinese suffered greatly. Nowadays, I see the West still has much influence in that everyone (China included) seems to want to emulate Western culture, forgetting their own pasts. From when I came last year, to right now, China has modernized (and by that I mean Westernized) greatly. For 5,000 years, China's culture has remained intact, through unprisings, overthrows, and even the Cultural Revolution. However, times are changing much more rapidly than even in the tumult of the '60s. I fear for Culture. We all speak of a "global culture," but it that worth giving up 5,000 years? I'm sure the soldiers that, 60 years ago, sang those songs in my songbook fought for not only their homes, but also their people, their culture. I wonder, if they could see China today, would they think it was all worth it?

Hi All, just wanted to share this message,

I recently was working in Wuhan and had to stay in Nanjing for the day/night.I went back to the memorial and am still amazed at the amount of visitors - totally mind blowing.
Only if IRIS were alive today, I was shocked to see an Underground going in.I went to old hotels I previously stayed at and was amazed at the people I met years ago still there,made me very happy.These are people that are relatives of the survivors.

I am in Xiangfan and today I saw the shocking site of a mother lose her son,drowned in the River.The boats that they travel across on are not safe and he fell over board.I am trying to understand her pain and loss,I wanted to make it all good again.To see the pain and despair in her eyes was too much to bear.He seemed to be about 6 years old.I will never forget this moment.I sat by the river for 3 hours hoping he could swim or they found him safe.
Yet sadly there were no boats out searching,It was too dark and the current very strong.The boats have no safety vests,no search lights,or life floats.I hope things will improve by the weekend.
I hope the people of China begin to learn quickly - practise safety first, it has to change.
No doubt I will be back at the river tomorrow, hoping they have good news,yet I know this will not be true.
Hmmm Sorry about that had to vent,it helped!

May the young boy rest in peace,may his mother find peace.

No information on her book about the March?

Thank you for telling us about the forthcoming movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0893356/

has information about the 2007 movie.

<"Nanking" tells the story of the rape of Nanking, one of the most tragic events in history. In 1937, the invading Japanese army murdered over 200,000 and raped tens of thousands of Chinese. In the midst of the horror, a small group of Western expatriates banded together to save 250,000 -- an act of extraordinary heroism. Bringing an event little-known outside of Asia to a global audience, "Nanking" shows the tremendous impact individuals can make on the course of history. It is a gripping account of light in the darkest of times.>

Release Dates:
China 3 July 2007
USA 12 December 2007 (limited)

Perhaps this movie will have the impact that is needed to illuminate the evil that was done. It could also explain why the revisionist "Truth of Nanking" is being rushed to production by an independent Japanese film company.

I was recently in Suzhou when I read an article about a movie which premiered independently recently called "Nanking." Unfortunately, my Chinese is rather poor and I can't figure the director's English name. I know only that it aired both in America and Shanghai and gives a view of the Rape of Nanking from a Western perspective. It's sad that a book is hardly enough to change the world anymore, but a movie... who knows? The article said that all the premier viewers in Shanghai were in tears all throughout the movie and the Americans were dead silent. The movie opens publicly in December, the 70th Anniversary of the Rape of Nanking. I'm sure it will help to further Iris's cause and help the world understand more. Interestingly enough, while I visited Suzhou (a city also ravaged by Japanese savages) I came across some repentant ones in a Buddhist temple; sorry for the acts of their ancestors, they prayed for repentance at the foot of a Buddhist statue in a Chinese Temple. I'm told that every New Year, the Japanese pay to rent out the temple to pray for redemption. Some people are sorry, not nearly enough, but it should count for something. As for Iris's speech at a book fair, I've not heard anything, but if anyone else had, please tell. A video of the PowerPoint that played at her funeral was on YouTube not too long ago, I thougth that was really good, but it seems to have been taken off.

Does anyone know where any video is available of Iris Chang talking at a book fair on PBS about the Rape of Nanking? Not too long before her death. That is the interview I remember and am interested in.

Susan,

The answer is "Gestalt Psychology" - pattern recognition.

We learn from our experience and interpretations. Our biological response to situations and stimuli and relationships (bonding) is programmed into us by evolution. Culture reinforces this, or we can use our ability to observe perceived variations in cause and effect to "learn" from those experiences.

History "repeats itself" because we perceive that patterns are repeated and we make the same mistakes by not learning from our experiences.

Did Iris "find an answer?"

Yes and no.

She learned and knew that recording an event changes that event and the perceptions of that event and that the human race can "learn" from that record of history. (It is the essence of the "Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.")

What, unfortunately, she did NOT learn is that although the "pen is mightier than the sword" it is only more powerful if you don't lose your head.
The possibility that she was assassinated by some fanatical Japanese nationalist is far too likely and scary for my sanity.

However, you and everyone on this list is demonstrating that the electron is more powerful than the sword or the pen. And faster.

Regards,
Allan







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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hi Mark - why does history always repeat itself? Why doesn't the human race learn? Did Iris ever find an answer to this?

Hi Susan,

I have just read today in a Chinese newspaper that a group of lawyers in the US have passed some sort of bill/writ to force the Japanese people to apologise for the rapes of 200,000 women.No doubt this will not do any good as the Japanese culture is one of not being forced into a corner.

Yet airing the matter globally will make people think!

I have a chinese friend whom hates the Japanese with a passion.Yet I managed to convince her it's not the people you hate, but the things they did and the actual perpitrators.Astonishingly she is studying Japanese...go figure.

Alos a major film is being made in China by the Chinese for the global market.But...ge this because certain Provinces want a different edning they will get one.Imagine the power to change stories,now thats a strange concept....hmmm weapons of mass destruction mr blair ??? now he has spare time he is has told George he will write a book about the bombs that turned out to be nothing.

Apparently this is a revisionist movie- The Truth of Nanking, an independent Japanese film shooting this summer. It claims that accounts of the massacre are lies perpetuated by Chinese government conspiracy. Unbelievable.

http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=fe...d=VR1117958065&cs=1

I have come across this site by intrigue as i only found out recently Iris passed away.I have read her book 3 times and the shock of what we are capable of doing is beyond belief.

Like NANKING the wars of Ireland,Croatia/Serbia,Vietnam,Iraq,Palastine/Israel is all too much to comprehend.Many stories will be written about them in many years to come.

I have no doubt Iris had to be the messenger of the ones who suffered and I think her message was not of hate of the Japanese but of how we all contribute to Hatred in many ways.
I travel the world a lot and still see the concern in the minds of the chinese of what took place all them years ago.Yet I try to inform them that the past is never meant to be forgotten but it can be forgiven.Yet strangely enough Tianemen square 89 never took place !try goggling that when your in China and see what happens!
I am fortunate to reside in Australia the nation of nationalities.The Land of cultures.The anglo saxons whom took the aborigines out.
I see many people in Australia whom forgive about the wars "back home".But not the war on the Aborigines.Why is it I feel compelled to apologise yet my government will not.
The only cost of saying SORRY is cost itself.

the message I see is that all atrocities should be told and the authors take the risk of opening the hurt by both parties.
I am not sure what Happened to Iris or why, but I would like to think she felt that good will come from evil,lessons need to be learned,history needs to be aired be it bad or good.
I hope when they make the film of the book that ALL people see it as a Lesson in not to hate the people but the things people do.
And when we leave the cinema we look at each other and ask why we do,before we do.

RIP IRIS CHANG thank you for the lesson in how to see beyond the propoganda and for allowing me to question the news when I see it.MOST IMPORTANTLY TO EDUCATE MY CHILDREN IN RIGHT FROM WRONG.

You may think that it is "nice that someone else finally agrees with me."
I am terrified.

I thought going into the War in Iraq that our country had learned from the disaster and lies of Vietnam that the one thing worse than Weapons of Mass Destruction was lying about it.

Now I am seeing blatant abuse of power and co-enabling by our government regardless of party.

We lost the War in Iraq in August 2003. Everything we have done since has only increased the death toll and destruction.

The "immigration problem" is really Hispanic slavery since employers are making more money than the workers and our government has become dependent on the contributions to Social Security that are "pure profit" and will never have to be dispersed.

I am usually the Optimist. What I see is that those people who "trust" our government are fools or idiots or co-conspirators.

I will probably get my *ss in a sling for saying that, despite Thomas Jefferson's wisdom that every 50 years we will need another revolution to throw out our own corrupt politicians.

And who cares that Iris Chang died?

A lot of people care, and they are hoping that the publicity of what she wrote and realized stays buried because it is "bad for business" and embarrasses their grandparents.

Having dealt with two former clients that were Japanese companies, what Iris said about the sources of Japanese culture now makes sense of the behavior of those companies.

And I really wish that I thought that we were wrong.






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< replied-to message removed by QT >

It is nice to hear that someone else finally agrees with me. I have posted my opinion over a year ago that I feel Irish was murdered by the Japanese. They had a good reason to murder her. But I only came to this conclusion because after meeting Irish, she seemed to be very strong minded. And when I asked her if she feared the Japanese, she told me that she feared for her life. And then when I heard she supposedly committed suicide, I knew immediately this was not the case. The Japanese made it look like a suicide. I think people need to wake up and see the reality of the power and influence the Japanese have in this country.

Edited by author 06-17-2007 11:44 AM
Dear Fellow Members of this Discussion Group,

Like so many people who approach age 60, I am sometimes "guilty" of coming to conclusions based on limited or biased information.

I now believe that my first post in November 2004 was in error.

-------------------------
CLIP:
Hold2File (Post) 48
 
11-14-2004 01:44 PM ET (US)
 Edited by author 11-14-2004 01:45 PM
Unfortunately, it is NOT impossible for somebody who has absorbed the absolute worst of human behavior to become overwhelmed by the thoughts and images.

At the "tender age" of 36, and having the "frame of reference" of family and friends that loved and supported her, the contradictions of being able to document the worst of "human" behavior was likely more than any intellect or psyche could absorb or accept without creating depression and self-destruction akin the "classic air-plane-crash-survivor syndrome."

-------------------------

I don't mind being wrong, in fact the true value of friends and family is that telling you when you are "wrong" helps you become "right."

In this case, however, realizing that I "am wrong" terrifies me.

The following is ONLY MY OPINION.

My post #48 was based upon my opinion and my experience with the vagaries of the human mind and perception. It was easy for me to believe that someone could be let to self-delusion and overwhelming emotion that would lead to suicide and to apply that metaphor to Iris Chang.

That opinion was made BEFORE I READ Iris's book.

I have now read Iris's book. If you are receiving this post and have NOT yet read her book, you CANNOT form an accurate opinion of Iris's tragic behavior. YOU need to read her book. My apologies to all of you for having come to an opinion without having read "The Rape of Nanking."

Now comes the bad and SCARY part of "my opinion."

I was not as overwhelmed by the horrors depicted in her writings as I could have been. (My reaction is not a matter of age and experience but in my learning how to deal with such stresses. Shortly after 9/11 I went out and purchased a copy of the movie "Independence Day" so that I could repeatedly watch the images of New York and Los Angeles being destroyed so that I could somewhat desensitize my self to the repeated image in my mind of the Real Thing.)

The horrors described were NOT the scariest realization I had in reading her book.

What scared me the most was that in reading her objective and rational description of those horrors, and her understanding of the emotions felt by those who participated in those events as perpetrator or victim or defender or witness or denier or supporter of Iris, her sense of rationality and understanding were overwhelming.

I now find it impossible to believe that someone with that sense of insight and connection would have or could have committed suicide.

I did NOT know Iris or anyone else who knew her, but I do have a sense of "human behavior."

What scares me now (or perhaps terrifies me) is that I am now 95% of the opinion that Iris was murdered.

Occam's Razor is sometimes wrong: "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

In the "Case of Iris Chang" my conclusion is horrific.

Michael,

I think the "Cheers and Tears" excerpt that I sent to you bounced. Re-send me a direct email to hold2file@comcast.net so that I can try again.
Allan
Hold2file@comcast.net

(Thank you Administrator for letting him/us do this.)




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The book on which Iris Chang was working, on the Death March... was it ever completed?

I hate agreeing with you.

Send me a direct email to hold2file@comcast.net and I will send you the horrifying excerpt of the first chapter.



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No I haven't read 'Cheers and Tears'. This world stinks.

Michael,

The Bush link "may" have been off-subject, but thank you for sending it despite how depressing it is.

Have you read "Cheers and Tears" by Lt. Gen. Charles Cooper, USMC (Ret.) describing the incident when Lyndon Johnson castigated the US Joint Chiefs of Staff prior to 56,000 US soldiers being killed in Vietnam?

-Allan


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Michael - good, I was worried.

Edited by author 05-22-2007 12:35 PM
Susan, I am sorry if I implied that I was going to or wanted to committ suicide. The point I was trying to make by posting is that I've discovered through personal experience the coalitions and/or forces that exist in this world whos main concern is to ruin people lives. The most recent one in the media of late has been the Black Crusaders. Also, people speak of 'having the fire department put on them'. It is amazing what people in power can do. Another thing that is amazing is that people don't even realize that our current president's grandfather was Hilter's business partner. http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

Michael - if Iris were alive - and were well - I am guessing she might wish that you did not feel the way you do. What can be done to change how you feel? Is there someone you can talk with? My 19 year old son committed suicide 12 years ago - he suffered from depression, so a I am not someone throwing out words that does not understand. I would do anything to change what happened.

Renee - a lot of people have been using the term " A Perfect Storm" when it comes to things coming together to affect a person or situation in the worst way. Maybe this is what happened to Iris. I am glad you are getting better. Sometimes half the battle is realizing that something is wrong and trying to get help. Warm regards - Susan


In a message dated 05/17/07 23:17:53 Eastern Standard Time, qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com writes: < replied-to message removed by QT >

the people that made her committ suicide are trying to make me committ suicide.

I am sure this was not homocide but I understand peoples reactions. As i have read about this(just recently) I think it was not one thing but several. I, although not as well known as Iris, have a very similar story. I have always been considered a superwomen. I figured out my problem but still am stuggling with getting back my old personality. My breakdown was not just due to overwork and no sleep but also nutritional factors. Most doctors are totally ignorant about this. Not eating right can lead to deficiencies you aren't even aware of. Iris was probably eating poorly and bio-chemical problems resulted. She was being told it was something else, given medication that treated symptoms not the cause and may even have done damage that altered her personality. No one and I mean no one I knows can believe what happened to me. Iris had done research like this before and it was not something she couldn't handle in her head her body was being taken care of and this is what can happen in the extreme. Other people push hard as I'm sure she had done many times before but all the things this time lined up against her and she couldn't explain it or have it explained to her.

this was part of her suicide note:

In the final version, she added: "There are aspects of my experience in Louisville that I will never understand. Deep down I suspect that you may have more answers about this than I do. I can never shake my belief that I was being recruited, and later persecuted, by forces more powerful than I could have imagined. Whether it was the CIA or some other organization I will never know. As long as I am alive, these forces will never stop hounding me. . .

White vans were the first media information during the DC Spiper spree.

I read in the San Francisco Chronicle Magazine that she knew she was being followed by white CIA vans because she was getting to close to the truth about Nanking.

I once lived in Colombia, Bogota. I remember how the thiefs there used a very sophisticated drug to numb people but only part of them. They use to spray some sort of drug that worked on people's brains and people will give them their wallets, their car keys, or open their houses for them. Basically it is a drug to sedate and manipulate your will.

I heard that this drug is very hard to use because the wrong mix of it could result on everyone around dying, so the right dose has to be used. It is also quite expensive that is why ordinary thiefs don't use it. But, it was widely used in Bogota to kidnap and to break in very rich people's houses.
I am sure that is what they did, used this drug to make her kill herself...

Hey Everyone - Thanks for the interesting discussion. I went back and read or skimmed all the old postings from the beginning. I guess for people like Jeff, talking about Iris' death is a rehashing of everything that has been said. I subscribed to this message board a while ago but never posted. I think with all this new publicity with new movies coming out, it just got me thinking again. I guess when people who mean so much die so young and tragically such as President Kennedy or Princess Diana, there will always be questions about their death.

We all don't have the courage to change the world like Iris. We can do it in our own small ways by performing our own acts of kindness, stand up for what we believe in, or taking on something bigger, and not to forget her. As long as we mention her, she is always around and maybe someday someone can piece together what happened. Interesting that Amelia Earhart is still in the news.

Have a good week everyone.

Hi, Thanks for your response. I will find out where I
read about the other American woman that was in China
during the occupation and then she supposedly
committed suicide. When I read this, then I knew
foresure that Iris was murdered. We have to look at
what we are dealing with. Just on the National News
last night the Japanese government denied that during
World War 11 the Japanese military did not force or
coerce the 40,000 Korean comfort women into
prostitution and also the other 160,000 comfort women
from other countries. They said that the 200,000
comfort women did it for money. I've read too many
accounts that these women were forced into
prostitution by the Japanese military. And the same
when they were in Burma, Malaysia etc. They forced
many native women into prostitution. So if the
Japanese government is denying all of this, then of
course they would deny in having anything to do with
Iris Chang's death.
--- QT - hold2file
<qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Susan and Carlos,
Thank you for your speculation on Iris possibly being murdered, no matter how paranoid it might seem. Where is the documentation on the other Chinese woman who "committed suicide?"

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a conspiracy.

If there are other recent incidents of people who have spoken out about Japanese cultural behavior during WW2, then to be "concerned" would be very appropriate. While the topic of this blog is "Why Did Iris Chang Kill Herself?" with the primary concern being psychological (and I have previously written my "rational explanation" for the psychology that could have let to her tragedy, I cannot rule out the possibilty of murder.

People and cultures do NOT ever see themselves as evil. Evil is a concept used only by the victims when they disagree with or cannot understand the motivations of their abusers.

Imperial Japan, the Nazis, and the supporters of Saddam Hussein did not and do not view themselves as Evil. They ARE Evil, but they view themselves as justified and LOGICAL in their horrific actions.

The "best" way (least conspicuous way) to eliminate a threatening voice such as Iris Chang would be to create a scenario in which it appears she committed suicide.

THAT is a possibility that is scarier than all of the horrors of Nanking.

And despite Jeff's criticism, it IS on topic for this blog.

Edited by author 03-30-2007 02:37 AM
or maybe his loved ones have a monetary stake? Movies? I am very naive. Please, someone, correct or inform me. I wait with baited breath.

Edited by author 03-30-2007 02:13 AM
SYu9815730 I appreciate your thoughts about Ms. Chang. You and I and so many others have only reputable published knowledge of her thoughts and personal beliefs availible to us and, more importantly, in the latest remarks, less such knowledge about her personal life. For us to speculate about things personal...well, it is hurtful to her family. And so many of us did on this site and where has it led? Nowhere. Nowhere conclusive. And for what reason? Only to further our own theories. Let us leave her and her loved ones alone. The greater cause concerning justice continues without this back and forth. believe me

Hi Susan, Thanks for your email. Did you happen to
read that there was an American woman in China at the
time of the Japanese occupation. And she witnessed
what happened. And she also spoke out what the
Japanese did. And I read also that she committed
suicide. So here you have two people that spoke out
what the Japanese did in China and both they say
committed suicide. I don't believe that. I'm sorry,
I think the Japanese killed them. I think her child
was 2 or 3 at the time of her death. So I doubt if
post partum played a part. I see how the government
in Hawaii always cover-up for the Japanese. And I'm
sure the same thing happens on the mainland. Aloha

--- QT - SYu9815730
<qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
>



 
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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hi Carlos -

I do recall reading your message a while ago. Nothing any government does surprises me anymore. If ours can be so politicized in the name of democracy, I can't imagine what evil lurks in a government that's purposely crazed.
I did a lot of reading about Iris - she did seem to suffer from depression and mania it seemed from the interviews with her husband. I was wondering how old her child was... if she had lingering post partum depression. It seems like so many talented brilliant people never live up to their own standards. It's possible someone or some group could have been pushing her towards the edge until she could not cope.
There are several movies coming out or being made about her life. I wonder how they will portray her.
Susan



In a message dated 03/25/07 23:15:22 Eastern Standard Time, qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com writes: < replied-to message removed by QT >

Edited by author 03-28-2007 10:03 PM
Whether Iris killed herself or her death was brought about by others makes no difference, in my opinion. Either way, she was a martyr for the truth, and, in the end, the truth is the firm point on which we stand if we hope to move the earth. According to nociception, physical and emotional pain originate from the same region of the brain. Iris bore a burden under which even Atlas's knees would have buckled. Before she died, the pain and sorrow she bore for humanity must have seared her the same way the hundreds of thousands of victims she eulogized were so brutally tormented. But on this day, her 39th birthday, I'd much rather remember her life. She must have been an amazing woman. She once compared history to a bank account: We withdraw from the deposits from others until we ourselves are ready to make our deposits. Few people can claim to have made a deposit like Iris did. I am sure that we will draw from that deposit for aeons to come. With Iris Chang, the old Chinese maxim holds true: "Better to be shattered jade than pottery." Best wishes on your birthday, Iris.

Hi Susan, I don't know if you read what I wrote some
months ago. But I feel Iris didn't commit suicide. I
met her in Hawaii and I spoke with her after she gave
a talk. She said that she fears for her life from the
Japanese. I have lived in Japan several times and I
know the power of the Yakuza. Americans have their
heads in the sand about what Japanese are capable of
doing. Look!!! Japan recently denied that there were
enslaved comfort women during the war. I can go on
and on about what Japanese have done in China and
elsewhere and still to this day they will deny it. If
anyone country is a threat to America, in terms of
economy etc. it's Japan. And Americans don't see it.
Anyways, please have a relaxing weekend. Carlos
--- QT - SYu9815730
<qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
>



 
________________________________________________________________ ___________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
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< replied-to message removed by QT >

I enjoy your discussions. I am Chinese American and admire Iris and all she had done. I am in the background here, but the postings are intriguing and look forward to reading them (although I think I am only getting parts of a story). Thanks!
Susan



In a message dated 03/23/07 23:14:52 Eastern Standard Time, qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com writes: < replied-to message removed by QT >

Edited by author 03-23-2007 03:55 AM
BUTT, Frank, if you are only a mean spirited, evil, contrite soul...I will personally come to where you live (if you will let me know) and with several of my compratiates, make you realize the error of your ways. Let me know.
Just kidding.

It is a small, miniscule even, point. But Frank's comment 'could' be from a frustrated man. People's assumptions are just that, assumptions.
We don't know Frank, or his intellectual level, do we? To diss him himself based on those comments is unfair. To call his comments on thier own terms lucridous and unsubstantiated and ill conceived is fair. But Frank may be a wonderful person who desires to gross us out because he is fed up. My single solitary point is...don't pre-judge. God, please, don't. You do understand, don't y'all? Let us all be a rung above it all.
And, finally, let us hear from you again, Frank. I anxiously await the result. But let us have it, man. Or don't, Frank...or whomever you are.

Wow, Allen. Way said. I am with you in the concept of calling a stone a stone, if you get my drift.
And I stand by my take on Frank. But it don't mean a thing.
And I still watch Jon Stewart (his intercourse with David Steinburg on David's cable program 'Sit Down Comedy With David Steinberg' was an excercise in the clouds above us)(catch it). (the program is favored on my DVR)
Colbert's program makes me anxious. It tries too hard and doesn't really zone home.
Mr. Stewart's show is more honest. I don't know how to other explain it.
If he could feature part of a show on Iris' books and the reactions, especially Japan's takes...THAT I would watch. Never happen.
But getting back to your comments concerning your Japanese clients:
Can you (with your experience that I definitely am in lack of) point out positive things or personal experiences that made you smile with happiness concerning the Orient, especially Japan? I really hope you can, son. Or we are doomed. I think I can point out positive thoughts and points of view, for you, from Japan, through others' words and thoughts. Want to hear?
And, also, can you elaborate on your own views? Email is ok. jjj522002@yahoo.com

sincerely, Jeff Johns
And thanks, again, for your input here. It is appreciated. As was Frank's.

Jeff,

I disagree with you in that I DON'T understand what or why "Frank the Idiot" had his electronic Turrets syndrome. (A more amusing description might be "Intellectual Flatulence" except that his comments don't reflect much intellect.)

My reaction is NOT an abhorrence of profanity, but an abhorrence to stupidity. I could not understand any relevance of what he said or the tone used in "saying it" to anything associated with this discussion. Ergo, the guy is an idiot.

Regards,
Allan

PS I enjoy sarcasm as part of the "theater of ideas" (which is why I am enjoying Colbert as much as Jon Stewart), but I don't think I missed Frank's "point" to his comment. There was none.

PPS I am currently dealing with Japanese clients and am beginning to think that something untoward OTHER than suicide by Iris might be a remote possibility. The egomania of the Japanese "taskmasters" who run these companies and the subservience of the American enablers (as in
"co-dependency enablers") is stunning. While I am now realizing that their Authoritarian approach is an additional reason why Japan lost World War II, I am beginning to wish we had more than two nukes at the time. Sad commentary. Very sad.





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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Or just post. Like some of us did. After seeing her interview on public television. Like me. Do it.

Please, anyone, post your thought (or thoughts) about Iris Chang here. That is what this space is for, my friends. If you don't know anything about her or haven't read her books, please read the exchanges here and read her books and form your own conclusions. Then post. We will be waiting.

hold2file:
Thanks for the thoughts. The 'stupidity' from "Frank the Idiot" I prefer to take as serious comment, no kidding. I know this is heresy but Frank means what he says and says what he means...I believe him. Thanks to the internet for free speech. Though we may regret some such stuff. And I personally believe in non-anonymous comment. At times. Certain times.
Jeff Johns, 130 Canterbury St., Lawrenceburg, KY. 502-600-1038

and, finally, I agree with you. About her.

Edited by author 03-21-2007 09:50 PM
I am tempted to wonder what inspired that stupidity from "Frank the Idiot" as a reply, but I am probably better off NOT knowing.

Will someone please contact "the Administrator" and delete that trash from this site.

I am also very impressed with the sentiments of Richard Wall and Jeffrey Johns. My compliments to both of you for your discourse.

As I said a while back, unfortunately it is likely that the pain of dealing with such inhumanity was probably more than Iris could emotionally deal with.

ur a fukin cunt go fukin die i hate ur fukin gutes i fink i mit kill myself dats how much i hate u

Mr. Wall-
I replied to your last post but it didn't get posted, probably because parts of my replies don't belong in this discussion about Ms. Chang. If the moderator will allow me to, I want to let you know I did respond and I want you to respond to my email address at jjj522002@yahoo.com.
And I want to state that Mr. Wall's comments were heartfelt and indeed pertained to the discussion subject. Thank, Mr. Wall. And thank you, moderator.
                                   Jeff Johns

 Mr Johns
 Please understand ,and I dont mean to be offensive .I was never comfortable with people thanking me for that. With the exception of afghanistan I was fighting people who where not a direct threat to us ,so in some ways I can say I was not fighting for our rights ,but for other peoples .
  Leonardo Da Vinci ,once wrote "Those who do not stand against evil ,only commend it " 450.000 people were murdered in the Bosnian civil war and we stood by for 4 years and watched it happen before we got involved . Look at Darfur right now ,But I also understand why we dont get involved in Darfur right now . Are we as bad as the people committing the atrocities ?
  None of these questions are easily answered .When I was on deployments I asked alot of these questions to myself ,who to protect? why? how? I now have to ask what are you willing to sacrifice ? to prevent another Nanking
or Dachau or Bosnia or whatever ?
 I have had African Americans scream at me ,and call me a Racist for us not going to Rawanda . So you see all of this is a double edged sword there are no easy answers for these questions .
 Evil things happen to people we will never be able to prevent that ,we must always remember that I forgot that along time ago so I spent 14 long years trying to save a world that didnt want to be saved . Always coming of with desperate answers to impossible situations. I remember my Grandparent s when I was little telling me the stories of my family on the Trail of Tears even this country is not above atrocity ,ask any Native American .
I apologize Mr Johns it seem our conversation becomes more and more complex
But I will leave you with this . You must always speak the truth ,so that your words may go as sunlight into our hearts . Chochise Peace to you Richard

Mr. Wall- Thank you for the thought out reply. I am sorry to disagree with you...(please read on) but I understand you made a choice...that choice was to fight for the rights you believed in here at home. The right to believe what you had the free choice to believe and what you wanted to believe. You were free to make a choice. You did. quote: 'also want to say you are not indebted to me {I fought as a choice} I never asked for anything in return, my life was mine to give Richard'. Richard, you do realize that your right to fight as a choice is the very base of freedom, son? THAT is where I disagree with you. I hope what I trying to say here makes sense. WE HAVE RIGHTS in our country. As individuals. And you have fought for those rights. As your choice. What a great situation. Thank you, for fighting for my rights and yours.
PEACE, richard











h



















a

 Mr Johns
 There are days when I feel older than time itself . I personally belive Mrs Chang forgot that there is still Mozart ,and DaVinci and all other great wonderful things in this world ,She had what we Native Americans call the "Sad Sickness" I know what it feels like , Sadly it became to late for her for treatment we Cherokee have a specific treatment for it .She fought many battles for others but didnt fight her own .Such a waste .
 I normally dont dwell much on negatives or positives either ,I just exist mostly from one day to the next ,but also I am neither sad or happy . When I first read The Rape of Nanking in afghanistan I often wondered what a Historian like Mrs Chang would think of people like me who spend our best years as Soldiers fighting other peoples wars ,being a policeman for the world by choice I wasnt forced at all .
 You must learn to be comfortable with the darkest recesses of your personality . I get the feeling you in many ways are afraid of this . That otherside of you is as much you as you are right now , but you must also know the reasons why you would become this person ,and the reasons why you restrain youself right know. It is a good way to get to know yourself . We people are like rivers and streams all ways moving ,eddying ,and rushing
It is our nature for the moment we stop moving ,eddying ,and rushing we like water grow bacteria and stagnate and die . I also want to say you are not indebted to me I fought as a choice I never asked for anything in return, my life was mine to give Richard

Mr. Wall...sorry to post too often...but as I re-read your posts, well, I am really indebted to you and your service and to the others I have thanked in my small town in Kentucky for their service in Iraq to the ideals of our country. That is all I can say, without kissing you on the lips, sir.
And I love my wife.
Please, Rich, don't dwell on the negatives too much. (I am sure that helps, sorry)
And I have to say I don't think we should have invaded Iraq.
Just my opinion. But you have defended my right to it. Thank you.
In the end, I hope we all meet death, whether instant or slow, with the thought that we have done what we could for ourselves and others. What else can be said?
Peace, Rich.

Edited by author 10-26-2006 12:37 AM
Mr. Wall-
Thank you for your reply. Very much.
Why do I want to believe you? Why did I make that statement?
Because, as you say yourself, you are just a series of letters on my computer screen. But I want to believe that you are real, not made up...because your msg really is one of the few I have read that resonates with me, albeit in an awkward way. You express some thinking and feelings that I have thought and felt even though I in no way at all have experienced the things that you have in your young adulthood....though I am 54 yrs old, I think you are older than me. I never served, have never been out of the country, am a WASP...lived a childhood that could be favorably compared to the old show 'Leave it to Beaver' (before your time, Richard-young in years).
Your comments about civilization, about how Ms. Chang, rest her soul, 'got it right', about how any of us can be barbaric (I truly believe that, sir. I know you do. We are all capable of it. I do not say that lightly) are exactly the kind of comments coming from someone with your experience that seem to allow me to feel vindicated for all the dark thoughts in my mind and soul about us (humanity).
BUT, I see the possiblities for good, too. You, my friend (after 4 emails I want to call you that, sorry if I offend), according to your msgs, have also justified those possiblities, too. Thank you.
I wanted to comment on every aspect of both msgs but common sense says no-one wants to hear that much from me and also I am so naive and inexperienced in the things that are talked about here that my comments should be fairly brief. (ha!)

I will reprint two comments of yours that hit at my soul:

"The way I see it for all the ugliness and hate and violence , There is also great beauty and wonder ,You have to see it all for exactly what it is or there is no hope anymore for any of us ."

"I dont Belive in an all powerful punishing God I belive in Nature . "

But, Mr. Wall, I could frame both your msgs in their entirety and put them on my wall. I might.

Anyway, thank you for your comments. I have saved them to reread again and again. I mean that, although you may not agree or understand why I would want to do that.

                     Sincerely, your 'kindofa' soulmate and admirer, JJJ

Mr Johns
 What kind of specifics do you want? Why do you want to belive me I am just a series of letters on your computer screen ?
Let me explain , I have seen the very worst in people there is no mistake about that ,But I have seen the very best as well all at the same time .
 The way I see it for all the ugliness and hate and violence , There is also great beauty and wonder ,You have to see it all for exactly what it is or there is no hope anymore for any of us .
 In my 32 years of life I do not take anything for granted anymore .I went to my High School reunion and realized that I have nothing in common with most people any more because I dont care about little things anymore it is a waste of my time .
 I do belive in God ,but not in the way you think ,I am ethnically a Cherokee Indian andI follow as much as I can the old ways of my people .
I dont Belive in an all powerful punishing God I belive in Nature . I for all I have seen also have faith in man as well . That is my better side and view of the world .I also belive Killing for the right reasons? Hell Yes .Do I think some people should be put to death? yes I do . Am capable of Killing people ? Yes I am, And yes that makes me sick ,But some of the things I have seen like mass graves of old people and women and kids makes me even sicker. So Yes I made my decision to help stop it ,If I stood by and let it happen and said "oh how awful" then I am as guilty as the people that commited the crime to begin with .So you might say I commited Great Evil to stop Evil , If you can figure that out tell me cause I have a hard time figuring it out sometimes .. Rich

Richard Wall- please come forward with more specifics. Please. I want to believe you.

 I have been reading your posts. Mrs Chang was right in every way .
You see I was a Soldier for 14 years and am currently a Paramedic I have been from Somalia ,to Bosnia ,to Afghanistan ,I have seen the Mass graves in Bosnia ,starvation in Somalia ,and seen hatred in its purest form ,and I have been in combat many times, I know what it is to kill my fellow man .
 Mrs Chang understood that it is very easy for all of us to be capable of being Barbaric animals .
I belive Civilization is a lie .You may call me a cynic ,but I have what Ive seen on my side and History ,and I see it everynight .
 I do not know any of you ,and none of you know me so it is easy for me to talk here I dont have to look into your faces because I feel guilt over some of what I did , but I also know I punished those that deserved it .At least thats how I justify it .Mrs Chang though I feel alot for because she spoke for the victims ,which is far more noble I think . I have alot of admiration for her . Unfortunately the cost for her was too high . My penance is to be a paramedic and save as many as I can . The world sorely needs more people like her ,and alot less like me .

For me one of the most profound conclusions Irs Chang reached was that there is a "paper thin" separation between ourselves and the descent into mass murderers and inflictors of torture. Under the right circumstances it would be sadly possible for any of us to behave in ways we hardly believe ourselves capable of. She discusses the physician who served in the Japanese army as an example. Maybe more interesting is why some do not. For instance why were some brave enough to shelter Jews in Nazi Germany while most their neighbors and countrymen went along with hatred. The holocaust museum in DC shows how there is a series of subtle transformations that transforms a society ("demonizing etc.") into a entity capable of genocide. You are left to wonder where you would stand if thrown into a similar enviroment. Tim

Recently reading Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" in school, it was stressed again and again to all the students at my school that "Suicide is not the answer." Following that, we read Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men," in which we learned that sometimes murder is the only answer. (I find school so much more interesting for such reasons). Personally, I do not believe murder (including suicide) is ever condonable. To me, even if Iris committed suicide, it was a martyr's death. She died because of the past's dark memories, which she painstakingly unearthed. The value of human life has much meaning to me, and murder without remorse is, to me, a great mystery. I never had the honor of knowing Iris, and in a sort of Achilles-Penthesilia situation, I never realized her contribution to humanity until she was already gone. The only time I have actually seen Japan was with a tour group in Tokyo. From that impression, the Japanese seemed like pleasant people. It worried me that throughout the five-day tour, never once did the topic of World War II come up. Though I was confined to where the tour went, I would assume, like Berlin, Tokyo would be very much a memorial to WWII. However, from what I saw of it, Tokyo was a completely modern city. The "Second Rape" was particularly evident here. Walking through the streets I would have never guessed that from Tokyo some of humanity's worst atrocities were drawn out. Saying that, the Japanese in the streets seemed like pleasant people, not the kind of people to pillage, rape, and murder. Again, I was only confined to where the tour group took me. Though I highly doubt Iris was killed by the Japanese, it would not surprise me if she was. Whether she was killed by the Japanese or committed suicide, she will always be, to me, a martyr whose life and death served as an important lesson to the world.

Carlos,
Very interesting and SCARY comment. I do NOT question your feelings or observations or fears. There ARE horrible things that happen in this world and scary people who hold long grudges and have little respect for human life. (Read the Taliban plans for bombing hotels in Bali.)
How long ago was it that you met and talked with Iris?
Rarely does someone wear an "I'm going to commit suicide" sign on their forehead. It could be that the pressure and fears reached a point that Iris's anxieties created a "self-fulfilling prophesy."
Or perhaps something REALLY SINISTER happened.
Regardless of what sounds like limited psychotherapy training on your part, if you talked with Iris 6 months before her death, I suspect that, depite your feelings at the time, people change.
If you talked with Iris less than a week before her death, regardless of your seemingly limited psychotherapy training, then I would be very concerned that you seem to not notice any signs of depression.
Thank you for your comments.

I recently found out that Iris committed suicide. I spoke with Iris after she gave a talk here in Hawaii at the University of Hawaii. And I asked her if she feared for her life. And she said yes. After meeting Iris, I feel she had too much integrity and too much to live for to commit suicide. I could be wrong but this is how I feel. As we all know, Japanese are experts at committing suicide. And it is not that difficult to make a murder look like a suicide especially for the Japanese. If anyone would have a motive to have Iris killed, it would be the Japanese. I have lived in Japan several times and knowing their character, they would go to any extreme for revenge.

Dear swordstoploughshares,
The "honor" is all mine.
Your comment "to know something about humanity that we don't, ... is quintessential that we learn from it" probably summarizes MY 58 years than any other statement that I have ever read.
MY single biggest "fault" IS "understanding." It is why "Brave New World" and "1984" so "warped" my outlook in that it made me suspect of conventional understandings of society.
Being raised "gastronomic" Jewish (rote Orthodox digestive rules without any understanding of the empirical basis of Judaism) I never understood Christianity until I discovered Reverend John Shelby Spong, who, unfortunately, still does not understand the abuse Christian theology has on it's followers. The book "Who Wrote the Bible" by Richard Friedman helped me understand the "pious fraud" that is the basis for both Judaism and Christianity since both religions were originally intended to create a means of social control of an illiterate and uneducated population.
The tragedy of BOTH religions is that they encourage some education but fail to accept that when the "illiterate child" becomes an "adult" the lies tend to overwhelm the good intentions of the parent.
As I said earlier, my second reading of Pirsig's "Zen" after having a basic understanding of Quantum Mechanics is also why I now understand the FAILURE of traditional Western philosophy to deal with reality as it really is.
I read the review of "Sophie's World" and have a copy on order from Amazon. No longer being a "physical teenager" I understand why I had not heard of it before. From the review it sounds like a brilliant starting point for understanding Western philosophy.
Thank YOU and best wishes.
Maybe I can finish this weekend MY essay on Quanta - a definition of God that fits both the Ying and Yang of reality and is NOT dependent upon misrepresentation or violations of the law of physics for It's existence.

Hold2File,
What you have said is quite enlightening. The Neibuhr quote is indeed applicable to every group and culture, and it has been of great use to me. It would take many lifetimes to understand the world, and, even then, one would still have countless questions. You say that Iris "did not have a a sufficient mentor who could share with her the realization that human beings have long been able to be horribly bad as well as very good." With her descriptions of the "Japanese Ghosts" (what we Chinese call the Japanese invaders), as well as the efforts by the foreigners of the Nanking Safety Zone, it would appear that she did know that humans could be both evil and good. Reading about the atrocities committed by the Japanese as well as their remorselessness made me lose hope in the extent of human kindness, which has proved insufficient too many times. Of course, the story of the Nanking Safety Zone workers helped restored this faith. Your statement of "airplane crash survivor syndrome" as a potential cause of Iris Chang's death is perfectly logical and brilliant. I am greatly honoured that you would be willing to share your wise thoughts with a mere infant in terms of understanding. A mentor who reads and understands ideas is a lot harder to find today than they may have been in the past as society has changed. I will follow your wise words and try to find one nonetheless. Indeed Iris' spirit is and will always be a mentor and muse to me and will always inspire me to strive harder to understand. The reason I am now who I am and not the ignorant 13-year old I used to be was because of Gaarder's "Sophie's World" which opened my eyes to the world of philosophy and thought. Through this book I learned to not just accept "the way things are," but also strive to understand why. Currently I am reading "Welcome to the Monkey House," a collection of Vonnegut's short stories, "Republic," which I have been reading for over a year now (I've read, at most, 18 pages in one sitting without falling asleep, giving up, or drop-kicking the nightmarish book down the stairs), and, of course, Iris' "The Rape of Nanking," which I has taught me much more about humanity than the pages of "Republic" or anyone else I have ever spoken with. Iris seemed to know something about humanity that we don't, and though it may have been the cause of her tragic end, it is quintessential that we learn from it.

                                                 Godspeed,
                                                  swordstoploughshares

Dear swordstoploughshares,
You are very right that you "have to relate" to your subject. The tragedy of Iris' death is that in being able to understand and communicate the absolute horror of what happened, and knowing that there was nothing that she could do to un-do such horrors, she was overwhelmed by the images of grief.
That is what I mean by "discipline" and "professionalism."
The aphorism ascribed to theologin Rheinhold Neibuhr of "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" has been adopted by Alcoholics Annonymous, but it holds true regardless of group or culture.
You should never stop trying to understand or improve the world, but you need to realized the time frame such actions may take and the consequences to yourself.
At her "tender age" of 36 Iris likely did not realize how her understandings would overwhelm and incapacitate her. By brining together the "horrors of history" she was breaking new ground, but she likely did not have a sufficient mentor who could share with her the realization that human beings have long been able to be horribly bad as well as very good. To compose what she did she had to be "very good" but that did not immunize her from feelings of frustration, feelings of empathy, or feelings of guilt that she and her ancestors survivied and so many equally worthy people did not. (The guilt is technically called "air plane crash survivor syndrome." The term should be self explanitory.)

I feel honored to share these thoughts with you.
It is good that this board insulates us from direct contact since I am a 58 year old former Scoutmaster, PTA President, and synagogue board member and do not want to feel that I am having an inappropriate relationship with child. I do NOT normally have these conversations with a "child." My latest "buddy" is 74 year old, lives in a Kibbutz in Israel, and I am critiquing the book he is writing.
You, however, are far wiser than your years.
Find yourself a mentor who reads and understands ideas. Also realize that the "spirit" of Iris is a mentor to you.
You need to be skeptical without being cynical, trust but verify. (Sorry for the platitudes, but they are valid.
Thinking about when I was 15 I realized that there were several books that significantly affected (warped) me:
"Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley
"1984" by George Orwell
"The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer
I re-read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig, but only after I read the book "Quantum, A Guide to the Perplexed." I now understand Pirsig since his understanding of perception did not have the benefit of Quantum metaphors. Pirsig did explain why Western and Aristotilian metaphors are self-limiting, but even he did/does not understand the effect of relationships.
If you are in the US and really want to hack off your Social Studies teachers, get a copy of "Lies My Teachers Told Me" from you local library and see how the effort to PRESERVE slavery in the US was a major motivation for our rebellion from England.
Despite being Jewish I not only do NOT understand that the4 Christian concept of the "virgin birth" was a mis-translation from the original Greek to Latin, but don't believe in the resurection or the value of "child sacrifice" (which God supposedly told Abraham was unacceptable.) But I also understand that Deuteronomy was a political tract created in 622 BCE to consolidate the Judean worship and re-gain political control by the Priesthood and the new King. EVERYTHING after the first four books of the Bible are misinterpreted political dogma.
Enough poo poo. My wife says it is time for dinner.
Good luck to you.
Let me know what books YOU are reading.
Bye.

I find your scientific allegories fascinating and very thought-provoking. I find your comparison of human existence to the existence of quantum particles particularly inspirational. It is truth that humans are who they are because of their relations to other humans. However, I have to disagree with you on the "discipline" needed to be a historian. In my highly limited studies of history, I find it most enjoyable when I can relate to my subject. It is because of her ability to relate to her topic of research that Iris Chang was such a wonderful historian, and using this ability she left humanity with a gift of incalculable value. I have crawled, walked, and dragged myself across the surface of this earth for 15 years now, 13 of which I wasted in ignorance (which I now deeply regret). In the 2 years which I spent reading and enhancing my minimal knowledge of human society, I have found that authors who are able to relate to ther subjects are the most interesting and influential. Being a Cantonese (not quite Chinese)-American, I cannot say that I can relate to the Rape of Nanking as well as Iris Chang or other real Chinese can, but the atrocity still depresses me when I think about it. I first learned what the Rape of Nanking really was from a video called "The Battle of China," which was part of an eight-volume set of old WWII recruitment videos. After I had finished, I found myself despondent at my ignorance. I thought about my friends who were also ignorant, and became even more depressed. Satayana's words "Those who cannot learn from the past are condemned to repeat it" took on new meaning. Perhaps the despondency from the regrets of the ignorance of humanity also depressed Iris Chang. The point I am trying to make with that is one I should have seen a long time ago: Ignorance is not bliss, but death

Edited by author 06-24-2006 09:46 PM
swordstoploughshares,
Your observation regarding the emotions that overwhelmed Iris is brilliant (and probably very wise for your years). The "mantra" of the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle is that you cannot simultaneously know the location and momentum of a particle. Likewise, ask any musician and they will tell you that if you are "in the moment" it is hard to remember how you got there.
What makes us human are our "bonds" (sense of identity with others) just like a quantum particle cannot exist as a singularity - particles exist ONLY in relation to others. You are who you are ONLY because of your relationships with others.
The discipline (and attempted dispassionate objectivity) you will have to develop as a Historian. The "ability" to relate to her subject was, unfortunately, the source of (wonderful) Iris' undoing. It is much like the professional discipline required to be a physician, therapist, or accountant. It makes it harder for you to be "human" but it is essential for all humanity.
My best wishes to you.

Edited by author 06-24-2006 11:34 AM
My mother told me about Iris Chang's death the day it occured, but I made nothing of it until I purchased "The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II" recently. The book was recommended to me by many friends. Doing some research on the book, I happened to come across this site. For some strange reason, while reading Mrs. Chang's book, I related her writing to a toned-down, less-biased, and more informational Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. In the "Gulag Archipelago," Solzhenitsyn quotes a Russian proverb that reads something like "Dig up the past and you lose an eye; but forget the past, and you lose both eyes." Personally, I think this quote sums up the reason for Iris Chang's suicide. Reminiscing upon humanity's past atrocities is a painful experience, especially if it is your own people that suffer. Mrs. Chang chose, for all of humanity, the lesser of two evils and delved into the painful memories of the past to remind the world of one of humanity's worst atrocities, one that the world forgot. As an aspiring historian, this is particularly important to me. Though I am too late, I would still like to thank Iris Chang for her contribution to humanity.

Edited by author 05-29-2006 10:11 AM
I am not only deeply shocked, but embarrassed to have learned of Ms Chang's death only today. I had great affection for her work and was hugely moved by her when she came to speak in Portland (OR) at Powell's Book's. Although I got rid of my TV a few years ago I regularly read "The New York Review of Books" and spend a good deal of time on the "net" so I'm stunned to realize that I'm learning this so belatedly.
This is very upsetting. I hope to join in commenting after I have found out more about this and have had time to adjust.
(My reacting so, to what is "old news" for other readers, may well be "off-putting" or even seem grotesque, and I apologize to anyone I have irritated or upset in any way.)
Lastly for the time being, whoever is responsible for having set up this site, thank you.

Edited by author 01-27-2006 09:37 AM
Big Frog (/m285) Very interesting you should mention Iris Chang and Rudy Rummel in the same page. The first time I ever heard of Rummel and his research was when Iris Chang mentioned him at the "Can Japan Lead?" conference at University of San Francisco (April 22, 2002) - see http://vikingphoenix.com/news/stn/2002/stn2002-004.htm

S/N - V18402U10004S23

Edited by author 01-24-2006 11:03 AM
tunde ogunnimo expressing shock at discovering Iris Chang's suicide and wrote in /m284 that; "She died because human beings has failed. Her story is our story . I would like to get involve in whatever way. We must all rally against all forces of evil. It cuts across race and boundaries. Evil is evil."

I agree tunde, evil is evil, and yes, it does cut across race and boundaries. If we conclude that Iris Chang died because human beings failed than maybe we can agree to get specific.

To be more specific I say that the historical record shows that genocide is carried out under the aegis of governments and tribalism that become tyrannies, and the communist tyrannies have been extremely lethal. The cause of all the deaths such as documented by Iris Chang is the power of governments on one hand, and the weakness of the victims on the other hand.

Before you get involved tunde, please consider the following. Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) has systematically documented that tyranny protected by gun control laws in Nazi Germany, Guatemala, China, Cambodia, Turkey, Uganda and other locales has given those tyrannical governments a free hand to oppress and carry out genocides (http://www.jpfo.org) A translation of some of the German weapons laws of 1938 under the Nazis is particularly enlightening (http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/nwl_1573_1938.htm)

Another example, is provided by R.J. Rummel of University of Hawaii. He has documented the genocides carried out by governments and tribalist tyrannies in great detail and Rummel says that freedom is the antidote. Easier said than done.

Rummel writes "...democratic freedom is an engine of national and individual wealth and prosperity. Hardly known, however, is that freedom also saves millions of lives from famine, disease, war, collective violence, and democide (genocide and mass murder). That is, the more freedom, the greater the human security and the less the violence. Conversely, the more power governments have, the more human insecurity and violence. In short: to our realization that power impoverishes we must also add that power kills." --- Freedom, Democide, War: Home Page (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html)

Rummel has shown by the numbers that communists have killed far more humans than the Nazis ever dreamed was possible.

I live in London a Nigerian in my late 40s. Just got the Rape of Nanking and at the time of writing this e~mail i.e 24 Jan 2006 i still haven't finished reading it. Now because of the delivery of the story I decide to check Iris out on the internet and to thank her for such a great work only to find out that this beauty queen is not even with us any more. Where have I been ? I thought of course that this is just one of those nonsense on the internet. But it's true.Shame,shame shame!!! I offer my deepest condolence. May God grant her eternal rest. To her husband and child especially and families and those who are associated with her and her work my sincere apologies.
She died because human beings has failed. Her story is our story . I would like to get involve in whatever way. We must all rally against all forces of evil. It cuts across race and boundaries. Evil is evil.
 
Rest In Perfect Peace Iris Chang. A Good light

Tribute to Iris Chang (San Francisco, December 18, 2005)

An Event to Honor the Memory of Nanking Massacre Victims and to Pay Tribute to Author Iris Chang

Where:
Union Square in downtown San Francisco, California.
When: 12:00 Noon, December 18, 2005 (Sunday).

Due to volatile weather conditions expected on Sunday, we might be forced to change the location for holding the event to the Victory Hall in San Francisco Chinatown at 827 Stockton Street. Please call (415) 699-0628 or (408) 446-4641 to verify the location for the event after 9:00am Sunday morning.

About Iris Chang - "Nanking Massacre a metaphor for evil"

Born in the U.S.A., when she was growing up, Iris Chang listened to her parents' stories of Japanese war crimes in Nanking, China. She came to understand the Nanking massacre as a metaphor for evil. Determined that history should not forgot this enormous crime, Chang wrote The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II. Chang has also written Thread of the Silkworm, a book about Tsien Hsue-shen, a U.S. rocket scientist who became "Father of Chinese Missiles" after he was deported to his native China. Iris Chang's latest book is titled The Chinese in America: A Narrative History.

Iris Chang became depressed last year while inteviewing American military survivors of the Bataan Death March for another book. She took her own life in November last year.

Biography: Iris Chang
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/bio-0002/irischang.htm

Iris Chang Dead At 36
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/bio-0002/irischang36.htm

Second view, Iris Chang grave marker, Gate of Heaven cemetery, Nov. 13, 2005

Iris Chang grave marker, Gate of Heaven cemetery, Nov. 13, 2005

There is an event being planned for December 18 in San Francisco at Union Square, Iris will be honored and there will be other activity.

December 9, 1997, the 60th Anniversary of "The Rape of Nanking" Memorial Services, described here -- http://vikingphoenix.com/news/stn/1997/pirn9788.htm -- also at Union Square, Iris was not present for that one.

Okay Hold2File, standby for that.

Dear Corsair,

Thank you for keeping me posted about Minnie Vautrin and reminding me about the consciousness of Iris Chang.

Could you please send me a post off-line to hold2file@comcast.net?

I want to share some personal observations and get your opinion regarding our son's duty with the US Army in Iraq. I very much would like your wisdom to help me understand what my expectations as to what may evolve in the next few months. It is not good.

Regards,
Allan - hold2file@comcast.net

Books about Nanking Massacre, including books by Iris Chang and about Minnie Vautrin, John Rabe and others
http://vikingphoenix.com/store/books/milit...nanking/nanking.htm

1. The Nanjing Massacre: A Japanese Journalist Confronts Japan's National Shame
2. The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II, by Iris Chang
3. Documents on the Rape of Nanking
4. American Goddess at the Rape of Nanking: The Courage of Minnie Vautrin by Hua-Ling Hu
5. The Good Man of Nanking: The Diaries of John Rabe
6. The Nanjing Massacre in History and Historiography

Edited by author 09-25-2005 07:01 PM
Sept. 27 is Minnie Vautrin Day in Illinois.

Like Iris Chang, Minnie Vautrin, the "American Goddess of Nanking", also committed suicide, in Indianapolis in 1941.

Story from Chicago Tribune today about a dance performance in China to depict Nanking Massacre, American ballet dance portrays Minnie Vautrin, story says Iris Chang is revered in Nanjing. http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/ULEYVEA2HY7m/m42

REMEMBER 911 --- http://vikingphoenix.com/photos/911-2003/911-2003-1.html

Edited by author 09-11-2005 03:17 AM
YOU MUST SUBSCRIBE TO POST HERE.

This topic has been reset to allow new posts but requires signing in before posting messages.

NOTE: since sign-in is required, posting by email is not possible.

If abuse again becomes a problem, I will again lock the page.

Edited by author 04-02-2005 04:25 PM
UPDATE APRIL 2, 2005.

Jane Fonda has replaced Iris Chang as the top search at VikingPhoenix.com.

In the Top 125 Pages, the Iris Chang Biography page has dropped to #84.

See http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/xnunqKRTQQfuw/m56.
-------------------------------------------------------

This Iris Chang discussion forum remains closed to new postings, at least temporarily.

Some interesting posts on Iris Chang affected by "vicarious PTSD" and using the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle to explain how that could happen.

OPEN DISCUSSION HERE

Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?
http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/F64fiQUPN23HB

Discuss Iris Chang
http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/ULEYVEA2HY7m

ALSO OPEN FOR DISCUSSION

Discuss Thread of the Silkworm
http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/wxDgCRr8Vge

Discuss "The Chinese in America"
http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/N6HD5qd3bLy
  
Rape of Nanking
http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/EZ4ugRj3LucX

This forum will remain closed, read only, for the reasons listed in post /m270.

Edited by author 02-19-2005 12:17 AM
Chang, Interrupted
February 2005, P. 49

The fearless author’s suicide made at least one thing clear: her subject matter was far more harrowing than anyone realized. By Connie Matthiessen

It's been more than three months since Iris Chang took her life. Still, every day I think about Iris Chang. When I do, I shake my head in disbelief and a question. Why? This is an excellent article. Ignatius Ding, mentioned in the article sent it to me. I recommend reading it, to aid your understanding of what happened to Iris.

http://www.sanfranciscomagazine.com/home/view_story/242/

Edited by author 12-01-2004 12:47 AM
Effective immediately, this original discussion forum
Why Did Iris Chang Kill Herself? is closed.

Too many people visiting this forum thought that
it was all about them and did not stay on topic.
These individuals persisted despite pleas and
warnings and the availability of other options.
So, this forum is closed.

Resume discussions of Iris Chang at:
Discuss Iris Chang

Other Iris Chang discussion forums:


Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?

Cupertino Kid, the eulogy somebody mentioned was from page 14 of a newspaper, see post #18 here at Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?

Edited by author 11-30-2004 09:11 AM
Is this discussion about "How Iris Chang killed herself?", or is it "Why Did Iris Chang Kill Herself?

BeyondMe2 posted in #266 "I am not here to do name calling such as “bad Japanese” or to promote God (I am an Atheist) or to promote gun control (I am against gun control. I believe in balance of power. Meaning we should be able to acquire the firepower to counter modern threats such as anti-tank and anti-plane. I am a proud owner of a water pistol.)".

I take it then from your addition in parentheses "(I am an Atheist)", with atheist capitalized, that you are here to promote no God and promote atheism. Your opposition to gun control is balanced by your facetious comments about acquiring anti-tank, anti-plane weapons and your water pistol. Therefore, it's difficult for me to know where you stand on anything, especially about Iris Chang, and your claims seem as hollow as Mr Greg's reversals.

For the record, again, I say that the fact that Iris Chang was killed with a firearm is how she killed herself, not why she killed herself, so I'm trying to help get this board back on topic.

P.S. - Shouldn't we be spending more time at this board? Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?

The person BeyondMe2 posted in /m266 "To Sean, it was my wild guess that Iris would not consider a gun in her house. It was confirm in her Eulogy p.14 which I pickup at her funeral."

What eulogy p.14? I was at the funeral. What eulogy?

My apology to this board that I did not realize I was on the wrong subject.

To Sean, it was my wild guess that Iris would not consider a gun in her house. It was confirm in her Eulogy p.14 which I pickup at her funeral. I will post more at “Any foul play involved”.

I wish to find facts surrounding her death which maybe suspicious. Maybe I refuse to believe the “officially published story”? They came to the conclusion too quickly. Like they want to bury it for good. I am not here to do name calling such as “bad Japanese” or to promote God (I am an Atheist) or to promote gun control (I am against gun control. I believe in balance of power. Meaning we should be able to acquire the firepower to counter modern threats such as anti-tank and anti-plane. I am a proud owner of a water pistol.)

   During an interview,Iris Chang said"Some people as they write,they might dwell on love,other people on money or the acquisition of great riches.But for some reason I seem to be bothered whenever I see acts of injustice and assualts on peoples civil liberties.I imagine what I write in the future will follow in that vein.Whether it's fiction or non fiction"
   She also talks about racism,not only about racism towards Chinesse,but racism towards all people which may be based on econimic conditions in whatever country at the given time in history.
  To understand this,just check out Identifytheroy.com or do a google search on Iris Chang.Check it out.There is a lot of good information out there about Iris on the net.I think that we all can learn from Iris even in her death.
  I find it to be an advantage to be fortunate enough to live in an international community here in Kentucky and I can understand exactly where Iris was coming from.Also,Iris said diring the interview that her next book wouldn't be about Chinesse,American issues.I feel that she had a global message for all.I think her message was this,we are all on this earth together.We should all live and learn from Iris Chang.Rest in peace Iris Chang,you deserve it.

Very insightful Sean, thanks. Now what do you have to say about Iris?

Mr. Greg,

This is really off topic, but our Founders put the Second Ammendment there to protect us from government. Wisely, they did not trust in the goodness of governments. You will notice, in Socialist dictatorships, the private citizenry is not allowed to own guns. These governments are then safe.

The Second Ammendment actually prohibits any gun controls. The populace is meant to be as armed as the government. This now is hardly the case. Still, an armed people still somewhat guarantees a free people. Authoritarian tyrannies (and their willing, unthinking pawns) seek to disarm their people. The U.N. will in about two years create a global gun-control charter. Does this make you think? Or does it simply make you feel? At that time, the U.S. will not sign onto it. Hopefully, Switzerland will also laugh at this measure. (I'm sure they will. Theirs is an armed neutrality - the only viable kind.)

You don't see the connection? More people are killed by doctors and cars than by guns. So ban-away...

Oh, and on the topic of genocides - ever heard of a "pogram"? Pograms were successfully thwarted by armed squads of Jews. Groups of Jews who did not have such squads of armed young men - died.

Does anyone know what medications Iris Chang was taking? And who was her doctor? Lots of evidence has recently been published linking anti-depressants with suicidal tendancies.

It looks like the best way to stay on the topic of Iris is to continue an attempt at a rational discussion that focuses on the things that Iris wrote and accomplished through the power of words, logic, and clear argument. She cared about the nature of lies. She cared about crimes against humanity. And she made sense when she spoke.

But I don’t understand why Mr Lee thinks that Mr Shannity dissected my previous point when Shannity wrote,

"I was warned that some people would try to make Iris Chang's suicide a referendum on gun control. Your assertions are absurd in the extreme. You wrote "Yes, please stay on topic" so please stay on topic and on your own, try banning automobiles, medical doctors and swimming pools you will be more effective in saving millions of lives. Government gun control is positively and repeatedly linked to genocide and the killing of millions, and I am pretty sure Iris Chang was opposed to genocide."

Is this dissecting an argument? Is there a connection between guns and doctors and automobiles? Linking government gun control to genocide? Does anyone really fear genocide from our government? This all sounds like something from an NRA handbook for the paranoid. But we do live in a nation that has gun controls. If you think anyone is safe from government genocide because they own a pistol, well I’m crying and laughing at the same time. Governments are powerful enough to commit genocide against people. Iris Chang fought against genocide and inhumanity with the power of her words. The best defense against genocide is the power of democracy, the power of the ballot box, the power of non-violence. The power of truth. The power of education. I could perhaps discuss the second amendment and our Constitution but I suspect it would be a waste of time.

But by all means, keep your guns. I’m not after them and you have nothing to fear from my words. I am after something bigger than guns. I am after violence. I am after man’s inhumanity to man. I am after racism. I am after hatred. I am after war. I want a world that cares about peace and humanity. This the legacy of Iris Chang. This is what I loved about her. She used the power of words as her battle ground. We live in a world of words and meaning. Her voice was a non- violent call to see the truth of hatred and violence.

This was the point of clarification in my previous post. Is this back peddling? Let others decide. I prefer to stay with Iris and the heart of her message.

 Iris spoke out against violence. She spoke out against the inhumanity that mankind commits in the name of war. My point was to consider her concerns and write about the obvious. We live in a violent world. Guns are only one symptom of violence. Do I dream of a day when we no longer live in a violent world? Yes. Do I long for a day when the truth can be spoken without someone calling it mind control? Yes. We do violence to each other daily.

Iris saw this violence and took it in. She suffered and we have failed her. She had passion for those who suffered from acts of violence. The rape of Nanking is only one horrific example of her pain. Had she lived we would be hearing more of the Bataan death march. Had you ever heard her speak you may have heard her describe how Chinese Americans resisted the efforts of the American Southern States to force them into slavery. They fought back, not with guns and bombs, but with the truth and a well organized public campaign.

There is so much more to talk about here than guns, which is why I say I have no agenda other than to consider all of the things that Iris Chang cared about, and all of the possible things that are related to the fact that she is no longer with us. Her death did not occur in a vacuum. Can you keep guns out of the discussion related to her death? Can you keep depression out of the conversation as well?

How about some of these issues as things that led to her death? We live in world that still suffers from racism, from economic violence and inequality, from war to war we live in a violent world. And we do violence when we twist the words of others and pretend that we have something intelligent to say. I once saw Iris have to respond to someone who asked her if she were a communist agent secretly funded by China. She was upset with the absurd notion. I was upset for her. She had to defend her American status before a crowd of people and I felt quite sad that she had to waste her breath responding to such stupidity.

How is this for another example? I heard Iris speak on the topic of how Germany has dealt with war guilt. The German government has laws against denying the Holocaust. But how did this ever become twisted into this statement by Mr Lee?

“So Mr Greg, you denigrate the memory of Iris Chang by putting her in the same class of dictatorial people that promote thought control and speech control. Why didn't you just call her a Nazi or a Bolshevik? Oh, I see. She's not here to defend herself. Clearly, your statement is off topic and quite inappropriate. “

Anyone who can twist my words into this strange conclusion needs to consider the meaning of words with greater clarity. I have not put Iris in the same group with the Nazis. Please don’t do violence to the truth by mixing up the meaning of words. It is sad that I have to explain this, but the current German government is not led by a gang of Nazis or Bolsheviks. When did it become thought control to teach the truth about the Holocaust? To pass laws calling for the truth to be supported in public is not thought control. Iris’s point was that these laws helped Germany heal after the war. The fact that Japan has not been able to come to turns with the rape of Nanking in such a public and legal manner is something which has harmed Japan in the long run. It has harmed Japan in its relations with all of Asia. Japan needs help from its allies to come to terms with its own past. Maybe this is why Iris felt so strongly about Hollywood producing a movie one day on the rape of Nanking. America is still in love with the movies and I look forward to one day seeing an epic dedicated to the memory of Iris Chang.

Sean,

I can't add you to the list, it's by invitation only. I'm trying to be officially invited myself!

Jackson Kwan Lee

Oh, and BeyondMe2, I see from what you write there was actually some evidence available that her weapon was black powder. I believe I owe you an apology. I was just a bit shocked by your question at first.

Why do you say, because of her son, she would not have purchased a weapon? One very important reason people buy handguns is to protect their families.

Mr. Lee,

Could you please add me to that last list? I am not one of the ghoulies, as I am sure you will ascertain by my posts.

Thanks.

I've posted enough here, next I will go over to Jeff's "real names on the net" http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/GKqKF4wPxjd

and also I will check out these other discussion boards.

Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?
http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/F64fiQUPN23HB

How I Can Use Iris Chang's Death to Further My Own Agenda
http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/8QruxpmHWUpg

Will Gun Control Ghouls Exploit Iris Chang's Death?
By invitation and subscription only

Mr Greg wrote in /m249
11-28-2004 11:49 PM ET (US)
 
"Contrary to what Jackson Lee or others may think I have no agenda on gun control. I am saddened that Iris was able to get a gun and end her life. Sorry if my point was not as clearly stated as I just now made it. I'm only trying to trace the "why" in this question we are discussing. If the ease with which she was able to get a gun is off topic I'm sorry. I do suspect her family was quite surprised that she owned one. But when someone suffering with mental illness and depression is able to get a gun, well it strikes me as an important issue. To compare it to other issues such as a ban on doctors or cars is clearly off topic and off the wall, or off the reservation, or how ever you want to put it. It's a Straw Man argument and I'm not going to get dragged into any further discussion on it."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above statement by Mr Greg is clearly back-pedaling nonsense. Hawn Shannity dissected Mr Greg's agenda in post /m230. I notice Mr Greg has a gun control agenda after somebody else mentioned it.

Mr Greg made a statement (see below) that appears to have been lifted almost word for word from information published by gun control groups.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr Greg wrote in /m227
11-27-2004 01:19 PM ET (US)

"Why did Iris Chang kill herself?
I think it certainly can be linked to the fact that she lived in a violent country that provides easy access to guns. This is a matter of public safety and should be discussed. We need tighter controls on guns. Her husband said they got through an earlier episode where she was feeling suicidal. Yes call your Senators and the House of Representatives. How many depressed people are buying guns today? What can we learn from this tragic story? If her death led to a ban on handguns then she would have saved millions in the future."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr Greg strayed from the topic by using a legitimate question to introduce another agenda.

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC!!

Mr Greg in /m249 wrote about Iris Chang "I think she hoped the day would come that it would be illegal in Japan to deny the rape or Nanking."

So Mr Greg, you denigrate the memory of Iris Chang by putting her in the same class of dictatorial people that promote thought control and speech control. Why didn't you just call her a Nazi or a Bolshevik? Oh, I see. She's not here to defend herself. Clearly, your statement is off topic and quite inappropriate.

Obviously my answer to your inappropriate off topic statement does not belong in this discussion forum either, but what am I to do? Maybe corsair will start another topic for this kind of thing.

Edited by author 11-29-2004 11:23 AM
Mr Greg and BeyondMe2

corsair seems to have anticipated this discussion going off track so maybe there's some better forums

Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?
http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/F64fiQUPN23HB

BeyondMe2, I think you are right about a black powder revolver, no waiting period, it would be classified as a curio.

In order to create the illusion that they were targeting criminals and crime, gun control enthusiasts targeted modern semi-automatic firearms, and they did pinpoint targeting on anything that was black or had a bayonet lug, because thanks to television, in the minds of the public a black firearm is an evil assault weapon regardless of it's actual mechanical design and a bayonet lug automatically means it was personally manufactured by satan, therefore it is reasonable to conclude that Iris Chang legally acquired a black powder revolver in the past 18 years.

I disagree with anybody that answers the topic question by saying Iris Chang killed herself because she could get a gun. She was already on medication. Anybody ever heard of prozac? Under the circumstances it is more appropriate to suspect a faulty medical decision than it is to suspect foul play in the death of Iris Chang.

I am shocked and deeply saddened by the news of Iris Chang. I have never met Iris in person. The first and the only time that I saw her was on PBS about the Nanking story several years ago. I was favorable impressed by her. She came across as a heroine and a good role model. I have since learned a little more about her background and her family after the tragedy.


A little about myself first, I was born and raised in Taiwan. I came to California and stayed about the time of her birth, I was in my mid-teen. I am a married man with one 9-year-old boy. I have heard and seen photos of Nanking when I was growing up. Anyway, I am not here to discuss Nanking but wish to find some facts about Iris.


I got the following from reading the news. It was an antique frontier pistol. I suspect it uses black powder. I called Deputy Terrance Helm and he will not disclose much detail to me. I believe he is a PR spokesman for the department. He did confirm it was a black powder gun. I called a few gun shops and learned that this could be a real antique or a re-make (new). It could be a cartridge or none-cartridge. It could be a six-shooter or single shot. I recall it was a six-shooter from San Jose Mercury. In any case, 10-days waiting period is not required for a black powder gun.


Did Iris purchase the gun herself? How long ago?


The note Iris left to her family, was that hand written or a computer print out? One page or more?


I recall many civil right activists were murdered. Yes, there were a few writers that kill themselves. In the case of Iris, I would like to believe it is suspicious. If it was a none-cartridge pistol, it will be awkward to load, i.e. pour the powder and ram the lead ball. Personally I have a very hard time to believe Iris would buy a gun factoring her 2-year-old son. I believe most female prefer poison, less messy. They prefer at home and not alone in a car.


What Iris stands for is hero to one but enemy to another. I greatly admire her courage. Were there any threats on her? Serious ones. Could there be a serious threat on her or her family that broke the strong willed Iris? Including threat such as to spare her family if she will be silence forever? This may give an illusion of “depression” to others. Dare I further this with the following? Could this sinister threat be so powerful that is back by one government and another government turns a blind eye?


This reminded me of Lady Di that was killed in a car accident several years ago. The perfect fall guys were the camera snapping paparazzi inches behind her. So far, not a single picture surfaced, not a single paparazzi came forward with story (suppressed?). The ambulance driver took almost 2 hours to drive 6 miles to the “best” hospital (not the closest) and disappeared from the radarscope. Only a PR spokesman represented them. There are more questions than answers, but I won’t address that here.

reddirtgirl- would you please consider responding to my new topic at http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/GKqKF4wPxjd thx

QT - reddirtgirl <qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com> wrote:


Love you all, Jeffrey Joe Johns
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
< replied-to message removed by QT >

QT - Mr Greg <qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com> wrote:




Love you all, Jeffrey Joe Johns
  
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Contrary to what Jackson Lee or others may think I have no agenda on gun control. I am saddened that Iris was able to get a gun and end her life. Sorry if my point was not as clearly stated as I just now made it. I'm only trying to trace the "why" in this question we are discussing. If the ease with which she was able to get a gun is off topic I'm sorry. I do suspect her family was quite surprised that she owned one. But when someone suffering with mental illness and depression is able to get a gun, well it strikes me as an important issue. To compare it to other issues such as a ban on doctors or cars is clearly off topic and off the wall, or off the reservation, or how ever you want to put it. It's a Straw Man argument and I'm not going to get dragged into any further discussion on it.

I feel that we as a society let Iris Chang down in ways that we still have not come to terms with. I am not here to make her a poster child for any cause, be it guns or depression or drug related issues. These are issues that flow in and out of the circle of cause and effect and thread their way into a web that flows through this tragic loss. I think one of the most important issues to Iris and the future of her work was the simple fact that the United States Government played a complicit role in supporting the Japanese government in their denial and lack of apology for the rape of nanking. This broke her heart but not her spirit. I spoke with her in person about this and she lit up with passion and stressed to me the importance of citizens of the US to put pressure on our government. This was something she cared about. If there is some future agenda to these discussions or a call to write to congress, I think she would appreciate that for a topic. I don't think she took her life because the world and this government refused to deal with the rape of Nanking. She used to use the German example of the Holocaust to illustrate how Germany had found ways to heal its society with their on going vigilance over genocide. I think she hoped the day would come that it would be illegal in Japan to deny the rape or Nanking. She was troubled that the Prime Minister of Japan still visits war memorials with statues to Japanese war criminals in them. But at some point she lost the will to live and I still can't quite believe it.

Edited by author 11-28-2004 09:49 AM
ATTENTION ALL USERS:

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC

Edited by author 11-28-2004 09:40 AM
Banned poster

Marti W. and reddirtgirl,

I have banned another poster. Perhaps the unwarranted concerns with real names will no longer be a distraction.

Use Policy

post guiness(s) quasi/random response......

what is the obsession that people have with others using their real names? sometimes much can be derived from what people decide to call themselves. And I don't see any lame craigslist like postings that call for this "please reveal your reaL name attitude" that some of y'all seem to possess (emphasis on this verb). I think it's quite appropriate for people discussing *suicide* to remain anonymous if they so choose. Sometimes one can reveal much more incognito than in the buff.


on depression and what the hell it is: (my definition- overwhelming mental anguish that can result in extreme measures to extiguish the pain.... much like if one were to amputate an extremely painful body part... except that one can still remain living through the latter)
there are some who are born with the genetic propensity for it and some who are driven to it by circumstances/conditions. Often it's damned near impossible to tease out one from the other and thus depression can be treated (when treated) regardless of origin. You can't change the past but you can try to better the present and future- this applies to both history and psychiatry, as well as a zillion other things.

Suicide: my motivations for such a pursuit would be to *end pain*. Let me go out on a limb and say that this could have been part of Iris Chang's reasons. To some, holding the ability to end the pain (albeit in an overly permanent way) in their own hands can be one of the few locus of control they might have, the only power over themselves that they possess. Strangely, this "power", for some is what allows them to get through the day(s) (last comment, I know, is way off the Iris Chang topic).

to be continued....?

Hi Everyone:

What caught my attention was the heading "Why did Iris Chang Kill Herself?" When I learned of her death I couldn't believe that she had taken her own life. Even now it's a challenge for me to think of her as being gone.

I've seen various theories as to why Iris killed herself. While a certain amount of speculation is understandable an overabundance can take on a life of it's own. The Iris I knew would not have wanted to become a martyr or a case study on depression.

I've also read some of the comments regarding how posters choose to identify themselves. As a single mother of a 12 yr old daughter it would be negligent of me to disclose my full information. Some of the basic guidelines to internet safety recommend the use of nicknames when posting on a public message board like this.

Marti

    Corsair,thank you for the compliment.Actually,I did stray from the topic a few times and you had every right to ban me. I also read that you are thinking of shutting this board down.I personally feel that this board was started for a good purpose.It has been over two weeks since Iris passed away and people still continue to post comments on this forum.I am going to ask that you don't shut this board down.I feel that some good is going to come of all of this in the future.The fact is this,Iris still continues to inspire people even after her passing,even people like me who had never heard of her until her passing.I am still doing reasearch on Iris and I will continue to post messages on this board as long as you keep it active.All should launch a google search on Iris Chang.There are many sites with information about Iris and the most consistant message about Iris(outside of the critics that she had) is this,she had a good heart,she cared about others above herself,she tried to give people an outlet to express their experiences and pain,she was out for the truth,she was out for justice,she had courage,she cried when she heard peoples stories,and most of all,she cared.I think that it has to be obvious that she wasn't out for riches or popularity.I read that she was driving a 1999 Oldsmobile at the time of her passing.I think that says it all about fame and fortune.I just wish that I myself had that kind of character.That is the inspiration that many as well as myself have drawn from this entire experience.Corsair,if you stick with this ,good will come of it.Please don't shut it down.Stick with it.Iris stuck with it,right?

Jackson Lee- soooo-good to use a real name. I just re-read your post about 'soul mate'. Thanks, sorry for my too-quick idea and assumption about what you were writing about. love to you and everyone else here, jeff

I am sorry, I guess I am guilty of using Iris's name to promote my own agenda. I am outta here tonite...but I will continue to read comments (if the administrator will let me) because I am caught up in this issue, her death. Love to y'all.

I am using my real name.

I didn't say I was a soul mate of Iris's. That was written by another fellow that knew Iris Chang, I just quoted his first few lines.

I just discovered that I once lived around the corner from Iris in Sunnyvale a few years back. I didn't personally know her very well.

I don't understand how the death of Iris Chang and the comments on this board make you put a premium on personal ID. Respect should be mutually shown. I don't follow what you are saying. I don't know if you are having a problem with respect on this board, I only want to discuss Iris Chang, not basic manners and personal ID.

Tell us how you will use Iris Chang's death to further your own personal agenda.

Suggested agendas include: - **my favorite**

(3) ban handguns, adopt Japanese style gun control to prevent suicide

Jackson Lee, I am glad you are using your real name. I agree, my post didn't include much about Iris, but most of my previous posts did. I note your comment that you were a soul mate of Iris's...one on my posts included comments to the point that people like me who didn't read Iris's books or didn't know her should be careful about what we said. I am trying to be. But her death and her cause and this comment board all inspire me to believe in personal identification and, most of all, a belief in respect for others. Can you argue with this?

Edited by author 11-28-2004 12:13 AM
New topic: How I Can Use Iris Chang's Death to Further My Own Agenda

I do not like to be banning users and deleting posts, but this new discussion board was created for the benefit of a few people posting here.

Edited by author 11-28-2004 12:06 AM
Jeff Johns,

i just read thru your whole long post and almost nothing about Iris Chang /m233, mostly all about you. I don't care where you live, or if you use your real name, as I do. It's what you write that counts.

Edited by author 11-28-2004 12:03 AM
Marti W., there aren't enough words to express the shock and grief I felt at the sad news. Don't be hard on yourself. As you can see from reading here and in other pages, there are many total strangers wishing they could have been there for Iris, people who as you say wish they could have "done something to help her in this." There are more people that love and miss Iris than you could possibly know.

Great forum thanks, Jackson Lee ext. wc-3565

corsair, here's a good one I think you missed

November 11, 2004
REQUIEM FOR IRIS CHANG
I HAVE JUST BEEN GUT-PUNCHED BY THE NEWS that a dear friend and intellectual soul mate over the last several years, Iris Chang, was found dead in her car near Santa Clara, California.
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000173.html

Edited by author 11-27-2004 11:58 PM
I've been reading this forum since last week and have to say up to now, I've enjoyed most of the posts - congrats to corsair and Topic Admin. Until now, I didn't want to add anything, but then Mr Greg /m227 went off the reservation. I was wondering when somebody would use Iris Chang's death as a referendum for gun control or some personal agenda item, and Mr Greg supplied the disappointing answer.

Edited by author 11-27-2004 11:56 PM
Gosh, when I come back here to the original page and see her picture....sorry. I know I am succumbing to human and male nature. Anyway....thanks for the responses about using anomynous id's. I agree and disagree. I know anomynous id's allow freedom of expression that being identified don't. I know that. Please understand that I know that. But, in these times, in any times, personally identifying yourself to your views means something. Actually, in a way, it means everything. I am such a putz...how can I disagree with so great a minds as these, who advocate anomity because it helps some express themselves? This is why....listen to me.....how can you express a view with conviction and expect others to listen UNLESS you tie your views and convictions with you, with yourself, with 'Jeff Johns, 130 Canterbury St., Lawrenceburg, KY'. Unless you do, your views are discounted too easily, because unless you tie them to yourself, it is too easy for others to not take you at your word or easily dismiss your statements. And what I really mean, sincerely, is that if you really believe in yourself and your views, what are you hiding? That is the point. I am me, this is what I believe, I am here, right here. I am not some indiscriminate internet id. I CAN express ideals and beliefs that most don't adhere to, or most do. And I am right here, right now. At least until I die. I believe in myself enough to say so. Understand? May Iris rest in peace. Again, as I said before, she DEFINITELY included herself in my group, not in yours:(hawn shannity, corsair, Marti w, Mr Greg, Xowie, Mattd, Jess, Neddy Chan): 'This is me. Here is what I believe'. Her subject may not have allowed her to include personal addresses BUT she definitely identified herself. Everyone reading this, Do so. For some reason, it is important to me. It seems important because true democracy can only survive if we do.

Timothy Veatch in /m224 wrote "As far as I'm concerned,it is simply human nature to wonder what happened.When an athelete,a movie star,a musician or any other famous person passes away,many people are touched and feel a sense of loss.The difference between Iris and these other public figures is this,Iris was not as famous as many,though I feel that she should have been.I also feel that if one is looking for a good example of human character,just do some reasearch on Iris Chang.She had a good heart,she had compassion for others and actually felt their pain.She was out for the good of all humans,not for fame or fortune.May precious Iris rest in peace."

Timothy you echoed my thoughts on this. I appreciate your comments and you've been consistent all along.

Edited by author 11-27-2004 07:36 PM
Mr. Greg wrote in /m227 (in quotes).

"There is a long history of writing under an assumed name in a public forum such as this. James Madison used the name Publius in the Federalist papers and I don't think any less of him for it. Ben Franklin liked the name Poor Richard. I see the wisdom of this after Cindy comes here and divides us into groups. Yes, please stay on topic."

Bravo Greg! Publius is still a popular name in public forums, particularly Internet discussion groups.

"Why did Iris Chang kill herself?
I think it certainly can be linked to the fact that she lived in a violent country that provides easy access to guns. This is a matter of public safety and should be discussed. We need tighter controls on guns. Her husband said they got through an earlier episode where she was feeling suicidal. Yes call your Senators and the House of Representatives. How many depressed people are buying guns today? What can we learn from this tragic story? If her death led to a ban on handguns then she would have saved millions in the future."

Yes, you should stay on topic. I was warned that some people would try to make Iris Chang's suicide a referendum on gun control. Your assertions are absurd in the extreme. You wrote "Yes, please stay on topic" so please stay on topic and on your own, try banning automobiles, medical doctors and swimming pools you will be more effective in saving millions of lives. Government gun control is positively and repeatedly linked to genocide and the killing of millions, and I am pretty sure Iris Chang was opposed to genocide.

"Iris Chang could have also killed herself because she lives in a country where the FDA is a joke and supports the drug companies with their FDA seal of approval. They need to take their responisbility as a regulatory body back and divorce themselves from the interests of private drug firms. If a drug has suicide as a side effect the public needs to know. So the subject of Lariam is not off topic. If Iris Chang took Lariam the public needs to know. She was researching the Bataan Death March so she was either planning to go to the Phillipines or she had already been there. She wasn't going to write that story from China."

Now Mr. Greg goes from a referendum on gun control to a referendum on the evil drug companies. Lariam? Why lariam? Why hasn't anybody mentioned prozac (and the psychiatric medical profession)?

Marti W. from Champaign, thanks for your very thoughtful and heartfelt post. I appreciate you stepping up. Some of the people posting to my discussion board have begun to flounder and stray and project their own agendas and concerns into the picture. Therefore I've been thinking of closing it down. Perhaps you would like to look at the Iris Chang's Quotes discussion board, where another friend of Iris Chang honors Iris by sharing a treasured memory of Iris Chang.

My last e-mail from Iris came in April and then she went silent. I too have wrestled with the "what if", someone had told me that Iris was struggling and believe I could have bolstered her struggling spirit. I had her phone number, and many times I thought I'd give her a jingle, but didn't, so maybe I'll always wonder about the phone call I didn't make. It's tempting to beat oneself up about something like that, but Iris probably wouldn't have revealed anything. Iris's family and very closest friends kept her struggle private and that's why the shock is so great, for so many.

At least two of Iris's old friends showed up at the farewell to Iris last Friday (Nov. 19), Barbara Masin and Paula Kamen, and Iris's mother read a letter from childhood friend Amy Orfield Kohler.

Hello Everyone:

I've been reluctant to say anything about the death of Iris in any type of public forum since she and I were friends. My main concern is I have no desire to exploit the connection between me and her.

The last time I heard from Iris was on June 20th, 2004 when she emailed me to wish my daughter a happy birthday and to express concern about her broken ankle. One picture I have of Iris is of her holding my daughter when she was just a few months old. My daughter is now 12 years old.

When I learned that Iris died I took out a card that Iris sent me a year ago where she included pictures of her son. She really did care about her family and wanted the best for everyone who was close to her.

I was not able to fly out to CA to attend the services, but another friend of mine did. She and I plan on getting together to share pictures and memories and to honor Iris in our own way. Both my friend and I attended her wedding to Brett and she was one of the bridesmaids.

Having suffered from depression myself I can honestly say that it really is more than just a case of the blues. It's unfortunate that her family chose to keep her illness a secret and I truly wish I could of done something to help her in this.

Many people will remember her for the books she wrote and the passion she brought to her activism. I will simply remember her as a friend.

Iris, may your spirit be at peace.

Love, Marti

There is a long history of writing under an assumed name in a public forum such as this. James Madison used the name Publius in the Federalist papers and I don't think any less of him for it. Ben Franklin liked the name Poor Richard. I see the wisdom of this after Cindy comes here and divides us into groups. Yes, please stay on topic.

Why did Iris Chang kill herself?
I think it certainly can be linked to the fact that she lived in a violent country that provides easy access to guns. This is a matter of public safety and should be discussed. We need tighter controls on guns. Her husband said they got through an earlier episode where she was feeling suicidal. Yes call your Senators and the House of Representatives. How many depressed people are buying guns today? What can we learn from this tragic story? If her death led to a ban on handguns then she would have saved millions in the future.

Iris Chang could have also killed herself because she lives in a country where the FDA is a joke and supports the drug companies with their FDA seal of approval. They need to take their responisbility as a regulatory body back and divorce themselves from the interests of private drug firms. If a drug has suicide as a side effect the public needs to know. So the subject of Lariam is not off topic. If Iris Chang took Lariam the public needs to know. She was researching the Bataan Death March so she was either planning to go to the Phillipines or she had already been there. She wasn't going to write that story from China.

Hi. I have been following the posts from the beginning because I was surprised by the death of I Chang.

I was grateful that the topic of depression and suicide were brought to the fore though the tragedy of the situation is terribly terribly sad.

I too am Asian American and I had suffered a period of depression back in my teen years. Also, any media news about AA's that I can get my hands on helps me understand my own emotional life (or so I like to think).

As far as I Chang's historical perspective is concerned, I can't help but feel that there is a bit of a political agenda that has gotten intermingled with works of historical narrative/fiction. I think that when we are seeking answers to injustice, we can easily get up caught in this kind of politicized, polemicized thinking. I have been there and am only now realizing that I am still contending with biases that are a function of the history of my people.

I think that a better person to ask is Barbara Boxer; she's a champion for the little guy, and she'd be all over the FDA if she were alerted to a problem with this drug.

Matt

  O.K ,I didn't join this forum to argue or debate and I refuse to do so.The reason I joined is very simple,I have been very moved by this entire situation.After I learned of Iris Chang and what a good hearted person she was,I just had to learn more about her and after learning of her death I was stunned and yes,even saddened to learn that she is no longer with us.Also I have the deepest sympathy for her family and friends because I know exactly how it is to loose a family member and a friend the way they did.My heart goes out to them.When someone dies the way she did,there is always speculation,there are always questions,suspicions and doulbts and each person always has their on opionion as to what may have happened.As far as I'm concerned,it is simply human nature to wonder what happened.When an athelete,a movie star,a musician or any other famous person passes away,many people are touched and feel a sense of loss.The difference between Iris and these other public figures is this,Iris was not as famous as many,though I feel that she should have been.I also feel that if one is looking for a good example of human character,just do some reasearch on Iris Chang.She had a good heart,she had compassion for others and actually felt their pain.She was out for the good of all humans,not for fame or fortune.May precious Iris rest in peace.

I feel so sorry and may she rest in peace
Won't forget what she'd done

We all know, don't we, why Iris took her life. She was suicidal. She was depressed. Nuff said. She probably wasn't murdered. Sad truth for you and me. Accept it.

QT - Cindy Chen <qtopic+28-a8RsjNiknPd6y@quicktopic.com> wrote:




Love you all, Jeffrey Joe Johns
  
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 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
< replied-to message removed by QT >

I goofed up my first post, so I deleted it and had to rewrite it, and here it is.

I attended Iris Chang's visitation last week in Los Altos, and also her funeral next day. James Bradley, son of Iwo Jima Medal of Honor winner John Bradley, was there and gave an excellent closing eulogy for Iris.

I doubt that Iris took any malaria prophylaxis for any extended time during travel. I don't think she spent much time, if any, in the Philippines, although she did spend a lot of time in China doing research.

It's over. We've got to move on while we honor the memory of Iris Chang.

Therefore, Timothy Veatch, you need to calm down a bit. Why don't you start your own forum on depression and whatever else is bothering you? As for Xowie and Mr. Greg, you could start a malaria forum, and Mr. Greg could join Timothy also.

Jeff Johns, I appreciate and respect that you and Timothy and a few others use your real names. So what if people want to use an alias? The moderator seems to have done a fair job of blocking a few weird and abusive people and deleting their posts.

The topic of the forum is obvious. Let's stick to the topic.

Edited by author 11-26-2004 06:07 PM
According to Senator Dianne Feinstein's office, Lariam is known to cause permanent neurotoxic effects, including brainstem and vestibular damage. She has recently urged Colin Powell and the CDC to restrict its use.

Even travelers to mainland China might have been given such meidication without knowing it. Certainly a plausible answer to this question posed by this topic, which, if true, probably would give some comfort to her survivors.

Perhaps an interested citizen of California could ask Sen. Feinstein's office for an inquiry!

Thanks for the book recommendation MattD. I'll look for "noonday demon" You are certainly right about how physical pain and suffering is central to this disease. Actually the only time depression seems like anger turned inward is during the diagnosis when a patient says things such as "i hate myself" and conveys feelings of guilt. I'm glad to get this drug reference from you Xowie. I have not heard of Larium or Melfloquine. How long does it stay in the system? As far as names are concerned I like mine, but would prefer to stay on topic. I'm not here to talk about me. I am just a person who met and cared for Iris.

   To the family of Iris Chang.I with a deep heart feel your pain.I also have felt the same pain as you experinced with the sudden and unexplained death of your loved one.There is no way to explain the sudden death of a loved one unless one has experienced this first hand.There is just no way you can know how one feels unless you have experienced this(god help you if do).Honestly,I know all to well the pain myself.If this is of any comfort to you and your family,seek help and the comfort of your remaining family.There is no other way to deal with this kind of loss.No one but your family(AND IF YOU ARE LUCKY A GOOD FRIEND) can help you.There is no other answer.Seek your family,in all reality,they are your only true friends and that should mean a lot to you and they will help you if you let them(as in my case)I know,though I wish I did not experience this pain,I was lucky to have some good friends to help me as well as my dear family.
   The utmost reality that should be of comfort to you is this,Iris was an inspiration to many that had never heard of her until her death including me.She lives on even in death.She inspires others to speak the truth,to have courage to stand for what is good,even though they have never heard of her before now.Iris Chang is the best example of human caracter who has lived in many years.She continues to inspire people even after her death,She continues to live as far as I'm concerned,let us all learn from Iris Chang,let her live and rest in peace if that makes any sense.God bless her soul.

   If anyone wants to draw an inspiration for their purpose for living on this earth,just look at the life of Iris Chang.She fought for what is right and what is wrong.Very simple.It doesn't take an Einstein to figure it out.It doesnt take Alexander the great to conquer the known world.It doesn't take any of this B.S to figure all that this life has to offer.We are all on this earth together.We should respect each others cultures.Whether we are Mexican,Thai,Korean,Colimbian,Jewish,German,Arab,African,Chinesse,Taiwanesse,Japanesse,Itallian,Haiwain,Eskimo,Native American,Vietnamesse,Lation,Burmesse,Peurto Rican,Fillipino,Cuban or any ethnic group that I may have left out.From the Virgin Islands to the Orient.From the Native Americans to the Arabs.From America to England.From Australia to New Zealand,from the east to the west,the fact is that we are all humans who must share this wonderful earth together,very simple.Ethnic groups really don't matter(though i named them out of respest for them)Get over it!I am an American from the South,though I'm not prould of racisim.Get used to it my friends.Not all southerners are racist,.Get used to it my friends,we are all on this earth together.
   I personally think that this is what Iris Chang would have wanted,all of us living in harmony with each other,the ultimate tribute to humanity,love and human respest for each other.My question is this,can we do it?Also,do we have the guts to follow our dreams for the best of humanity as Iris Chang did?All living on earth in harmony?Can we do it?I think we can.Lets get with the program!

  Jeff Johns,Thank you.I decided that some of my posts were not in line with what is being discussed on this board.If anyone was online last Saturday night,they will know what happened.It was a major cluster(we all know what word belongs here)and I somehow I allowed myself to get caught up in it.I agree with you in the fact that Corsair has done a fabuolus job in keeping everything in line(he could have banned me)and I commend Corsair.
   One thing that I have learned in life is this,each of us has their own opinion,different thoughts,different ways of expressing themselves,ect.As far as I'm concerned,this is what makes the world round instead of flat.
  Now let us get back to Iris Chang.As far as I'm concerned,all one has to do is scroll to the top of this page and look at the photo of Iris.Personally,I can see the look of goodness in her eyes.She just had that very bright look of goodness,honesty,passion,compassion for others,a ray of light and true human emotions which should inspire us all.
  Here in the southeastern U.S ,not many people have heard of Iris(including myself) and there has been very little media coverage.I have only talked to one person who has knowledge of Iris Chang.She just happened to be a book reader and knew about Iris's writing.I feel that it's a shame that I and many others have never had any knowledge of Iris and her heart felt work,maybe it's our fault.Maybe she was overshadowed by recent media events at the time of her death(though we should have known her while she was living)If there was anything I could change about my past,it would be the utmost pleasure of having the luck to meet Iris Chang.I will say that even in her death she should be an inspiration for us all.
   Also,from my experience with Asian people in my town(Chinesse,Taiwanesse,Thai,Korean,Japanesse,Fillipino and Burmesse) is the fact that loosing face is the worst thing that can happen to an Asian.I have to wonder if depression(keep in mind that this is only speculation) was loosing face(again just a thought) for Iris.I don't know the facts,this is what I have learned from the wonderful Asian people that I know personally and I love them all.
  Also Jeff Johns,Timothy Veatch is my real name and as you,I'm prould of it as you are of your name.
  My thoughts and opinions are only what they are.Anyone who is wearing a chip on their shoulder is going to have a problem with me.All that I can say is"Get over it" .
  Let us all draw inspiration from this special woman Iris Chang.She was(and is)the best role model that all humans have had in many years.She has inspired many people who knew nothing or her before her death.How many people in history have accomplished that feat?Not very many I would say.
  Best west wishes and Happy Thanksgiving,
   Timothy Veatch

Edited by author 11-25-2004 10:22 AM
A horrifying cluster of suicides in the military over the past several years has been linked to the anti-malaria drug Lariam (mefloquine). A historian who routinely travels overseas might well have taken Lariam. (Philippines, for example, is malarial in many places.)

I have no idea if Iris Chang took Lariam, but certainly a drug side-effect is a very likely explanation for the deterioration of someone who, after all, based her life's work on the overcoming of human adversity.

Step up to the plate...not naming yourself can mean you are not personally responsible for the views expressed. I am only expressing a general view, not necessarily denouncing y'all. Y'all are only behavin' like the crowd. Fittin' in. That's what you want, right? left? Sorry, I know I won't change anything. Most people will prefer anomynous nicknames. Jeff Johns (no nickname, in yo' face)

MattD and Mr Greg...whomever you are...I am Jeff Johns. And not afraid to say so...just trying to make a point here. And I understand your comments and empathize with your concerns about the abyss and depression and the ways of dealing with it. And what depression means. Thank you, whomever you are, since noone identifies themselves here. Iris wasn't afraid to identify herself. I will say that depression means you can't make sense of life and your life's work doesn't make sense out of life, either. I fear MattD and Mr Greg aspire to the notion that maybe we can...make sense out of this (life). The onle sense to be believed and believe in is: love your family and care for them. Don't believe in anything else. there is nothing else

Greg, I think your post is very insightful and unfortunately, probably right. Though I don't think that her work can be taken out of the equation entirely, I suspect that this was not the "main cause" of the depression or the suicide. Depression is, in it's very nature, a pathology of the brain. So, clearly chemically her brain wasn't functioning as would the brain of a non-depressed individual. The question is, I suppose, what caused her brain to be in this state. These things can spiral out of control very quickly, and can be driven by factors that would wouldn't occur to a non-depressed person (or someone other than the depressed person). Her work schedule may be as much a symptom of her depression as a cause. I know that when I was deeply depressed the last thing I wanted was time to myself and time to reflect. It was at those times when I felt totally isolated and could look into the abyss. I was like Iris to a certain extent--a successful scholar and a motivated and driven person. I didn't want to let others know what was happening to me, so most people had no idea how bad things were inside me. This made me feel even more alone. But I had done so much else in my life with hard work, surely, I thought, I could conquer something problematic with my own mind. I suspect that Iris's mental acuity was a large part of what she thought was valuable about herself, and this strength of will and mind can lead one to resist admitting that the problem is not soluable via one's own resources. She had done so much with her mind during such a short period of time; she probably was sure that she could beat this thing on her own until one day she realized that things had progressed too far.

Matt

I'm not sure what it mean to say that depression is a form of inner-directed anger . It's certainly not the case that this is the consensus of psychiatrists or those in neuroscience (I do work in these fields). It is true that there often is guilt associated with depression, and people are irritable and frustrated. It's usually not fueled by anger. In fact, often the triggers can be seemingly innocuous to others. I recommend highly _The Noonday Demon_ if you want to try to get a first-person look at depression.

I doubt that this was a 5-month episode. I suspect that it manifested itself after childbirth. Suicide usually isn't brought on by 5 months of depression--it's usually a decision one makes when one believes that there is no hope of normalcy ever again, and 5 months generally isn't long enough for one to conclude this. But, there are differences from person to person.

Deep depression causes one's entire body to feel sick, as if it's rotting. It is painful to exert one's will to try to do anything. Thinking becomes clouded and very arduous. And it is incessant. If you're able to sleep. you know that as soon as you wake up, that horrible pain will return. It really is a demon. Most people who have had serious depression say that it's worse than any physical pain they've ever felt.

Matt

Depression can be understood as anger turned inward. It can also be understood as a chemical inbalance in the brain. It can also be understood as a result of trauma and exposre to the inhumanity so common in war. This anger is intensified in the Rape of Nanking case due to the denials by some, not all, of the Japanese. But work is one way to help oneself out of depression. I think Iris's work gave her energy and life and it also drained her. It is part of the yin yang cycle of give and take, hot and cold, peaks and lows, but I don't believe for a second that her work in anyway made her kill herself. She was on a mission to change the world and she had dreams that she was still working on. To suggest that she killed herself because of her work reminds me of the sort of medical advice Kate Chopin was given in the 19th century to cure her melancholia. She tried to relax and not write and ended up going crazy. So she writes "Wall Paper" to recover. Had Iris quit working would we still have her? I don't think so. She may have been able to pull away from the horror of her research and take a vacation or something but she may have ended up killing herself anyway. The historian doesn't kill him or her self because of the hell that is researched. The history of humanity has been an on-going horror of conquest after conquest and sometimes the victims have a champion to voice their story and tell their story. History is too often written by the winners and the graves are paved over unmarked tombs of the victims. Father La Casas told the story of Indian Genocide by the likes of Cortez and Spain. He said he wrote his letters with trembling hands. No doubt Iris's hands trembled as she wrote and her heat quickened, but she had a powerful voice and a determined vision. At what point does the saying "the truth shall set you free" lead us down the path to "the truth will result in suicidal depression?" I think its a mistake to confuse Iris's depression with her work, or to blame her work for her death.

Perhaps her work masked a life of depression and helped her survive long enough to bring the truth to light. I loved her work and the power in her voice. And her work depressed me. How can it not depress us? It is a clear account of evil and brutal actions that are unthinkable. But Iris was a truth teller, and her work gave meaing to her life.

Before I can understand why she killed herself I need to better understand the depth of her depression and her course of treatment. But that is really none of my business. I don't think it was some snap decision that just came over in those dark hours. Before she made the decision to kill herself she made a decision to buy a gun. That could take at least a week or two for the background check to clear. Was she planning her death with that much care over that whole period of time? Only Iris really understood the depth of her pain and suffering. As the existentialist say, maybe she looked into the abyss and saw it looking back at her. She realized it was in her, just as it is in all of us. She gave up hope and lost her way and the depression left untreated, mistreated, misunderstood, led her away.

So i speculate, and consider it's likely her depression was not seen by those close to her until it was too late because she was so strong. And when it did show up it was not taken as seriously as it may have been. Had she been someone who was often seen as depressed and suicidal then her family would have had an easier time seeing what she was up against. When or if a patient ends up with a health care professional, the doctors ask "do you have or ahve you ever had thoughts of hurting yourself?" What did Iris say when her doctors asked such things? Only her family now those answers and that is also now, none of my business. But Doctors can be fooled as they examine. We humans are clever and skillful at self preservation and self deception. We can protect our fears, desires, weaknesses and plans with the same strength and committment that we also use when fighting against lies and injustice.

And I agree with you Corsair about the Kurt Cobain comparison. Iris's contribution to the world eclipses his album credits, and I don't want to divert any of this away from Iris. Since we now have all we are going to have from the family and the police I will have to trust that the police did their jobs and the family has to do what ever they have to in order to deal with their grief, which has to be compounded a million times over the saddness I feel. I feel better giving away my conspiracy fears and concerns. Since she killed herself her family lost a beloved sister, mother, wife, child - their heart has been ripped out. Their loss is greater than ours. We have lost a loved friend, a famous writer, a voice for truth, a great soul, and we grieve too. I hope our sympathy, and what we express here in our concern for Iris, helps her family find some comfort. They are not crying alone. The pain of her death is clearly seen in the on-going flow of letters to this board. Sleep peacefully Iris.

Edited by author 11-25-2004 01:16 AM
I am interested in something that definitely does not apply to the topic (forgive me, Corsair and administrators) the topic (why did Iris Chang kill herself?) that I am so emotionally attached to. That something is internet 'tags' or 'id's'. I have seen very few people use their real names to identify themselves. I can understand this in certain circumstances. It will prevail, I know. BUT WHY can't more of us simply use our names? The reasons not to do so are legion: 1) women won't...I understand, I guess 2) men won't, and why: you fear retaliation or personal rebuke...EXPRESS YOUR VIEWS and identify youself.
Our world and our way of being depend on public recognition of our personal views. Of me and you stating our thoughts in public and being recognized. That said, I understand the value and strength, at times, of being anomynous. BUT. In certain forums and on the internet, more stock (duh) is taken of your view if you identify yourself. Please do so unless you feel personal danger or threats prevent you from doing so. I guess I don't like arguing or really expressing points of view with faceless and, ultimately, rootless and unidentifiable foes, and friends. In the end, we can't resolve things peaceably this way. People who argue for peace and for understanding, tolerance and love need to personally stand up for themselves. And visa-versa. Please let me know of an internet forum where this is debated, maybe I will learn. love you all

Edited by author 11-25-2004 12:17 AM
I don't want to anger anyone over multiple posts, but there is one other post I found interesting.

Corsair:
Depression is anger turned inward on ones self. That was first explained to me by a clergyman, and later confirmed by people trained in psychology and psychiatry. Since absorbing this explanation over 30 years ago, I view depression in that framework.



Corsair, I have never heard that about depression before. It is very interesting. I am a depressed person, as I suppose some of my posts suggest. Somehow, I take solace in that view of depression. Thank you.

I edited out: 'although it only indirectly applies to the topic.'

Sorry, corsair, of course it directly applies to the topic.

Timothy Veatch, your last post says it all. Thank you for your gracious reply in the face of criticism. Reddirtgirl, thx for your thoughtful message and reply. Corsair, I think you are doing a fine job. My thoughts at this point are that people like me who are semi-articulate and somewhat under-educated (I have an associate degree in electronics engineering from 1973, nothing in liberal arts) and haven't read any of Iris's books and didn't know her...we should be careful about what we say. I will be. My feelings are that her death has caused some, sad to say, temporary ripples in the thoughts of a few (I hope I am wrong, I hope her death inspires many). I don't think most of the people who post here can ever know WHY she killed herself. We sure can wonder, though. And life and death goes on...and on

In my mind, Iris' work and death can be understood, if we see them revolve around one concept -- collective responsibility, which is for the betterment of our society and is moral in nature. (This concept differs from individual criminal responsibility, in many obvious ways which we need not delve into.)

I believe Iris killed herself, because faced with so little time (before the Bataan surviving GI die out) and so much to cover, she took upon herself the frustration in the face of the pressure to complete this immense task in time, to her level of exceedingly high standard. That is what adds to her internal biochemical reactions after giving birth, etc.

We should realize as she should have, that such an enormous crash project really belonged to a team of young energetic historians or journalists, each much like herself. Where were the rest of us? Did we put our money, where our mouths were?

Then, the implications of her work. With her Nanking book, I don't believe Iris meant to criminally indict the entire Japanese society collectively. However, I do firmly believe that in bravely facing the atrocities committed by some of the Imperial Japanese soldiers, the enlightened Japanese citizens (however a minority) is facing up to their moral obligations for improving their society -- that is the collective moral responsibility of any civilized society.

I was born in China (though not raised there). I hope the Chinese people in PRC today would learn the lessons of the Japanese experience then and now -- not merely as victims gratified with apology, but as enlightened students themselves who will know how to avoid the equally aweful prospect of becoming future perpetrators of similar atrocities (in their government's dealings with Taiwan and Tibet).

History is a teacher to all. May the kind and beautiful teaching assistant rest in peace.

Iris Chang signed a copy of her book for me. I don't know why she took her life, it's all beyond me. Depression mystifies me. She left a lot of unfinished work. I wonder who will pick up the torch.

Edited by author 11-24-2004 01:35 PM
Depression is anger turned inward

Depression is anger turned inward on ones self. That was first explained to me by a clergyman, and later confirmed by people trained in psychology and psychiatry. Since absorbing this explanation over 30 years ago, I view depression in that framework.

Therefore, I have to conclude that Iris Chang was angered by her research findings, and based on what we know from Iris and the witnesses of Japanese war crimes, anger seems like a reasonable reaction. Considering the reluctance of Japanese society to take ownership of and atone for past crimes, who could blame Iris Chang for feeling angry?

In dealing with anger, some people explode, some people vent slowly, and some get depressed. I think it is clear that Iris Chang had great personal self control, so she put a lid on the anger, and found an outlet through telling the gloomy history she found in her research.

So, based on my understanding of depression and my understanding of Iris Chang's work, my explanation of this tragedy is that Iris just could not siphon off the anger fast enough to prevent it from turning into depression.

reddirtgirl, I read your original post, and Bill W's question, and so my interpretation of this is that maybe some personalities and in particular some female personalities are more susceptible to being overwhelmed by all that depressing information, from you I get that you had some insight into what drove Iris Chang to take her life. On the other hand, I do not excuse males from this weakness, to the contrary, I'd think males would be more prone to collapse, because women cry, men won't. I guess Iris Chang couldn't cry enough to rid herself of the burdens she assumed. God Bless Iris Chang and her family.

Edited by author 11-24-2004 12:02 PM
Bill W......

I am in NO way suggesting that certain personalities, specifically female, aren't strong enough to write history about horrible events.

I am curious as to what prompted you to associate a gender and the strength to recount historical atrocities ?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of other female "atrocity historians" (my life revolves around things that are worlds apart from history academia). However, there are plenty of present day women journalists that cover atrocities (Iris Chang's undergrad was in journalism)... like Anne Garrels (NPR) and Pamela Constable (Wash Post). Though they are not bearing witness to the same exact events as Nanking, their words suggest that they have witnessed/are witnessing immense human suffering... (btw, I really hate it when people try to compare and quantify degrees of atrocities, ie this one was worse than the other).

People who are in the business of covering atrocities (past and present) are going to be affected emotionally. And the way in which they (cannot) cope with their emotions can sometimes lead to depression and suicide. And/or it could be a chicken and egg thing. I have no data on "gender specific reactions to immersing onself in atrocities as a career" but would think that it is gender neutral.

Straying away from historians, per se, photojournalist Kevin Carter is an example of a guy whose suicide was directly related to his career. (google "kevin carter suicide" if you're not sure who he is). In his suicide note he wrote "The pain of life overrides the joy to the point that joy does not exist."

This is something I feel that I can sometimes/often identify with. It's some combination of the pain of existance, wanting to get out from the oppression of pain, and having no prospect of such (loss of hope). I think people have differing degrees of sympathy with the victims- some, perhaps like Iris Chang and Kevin Carter internalize the pain of the victims that they encounter to an extremely high degree.
 
As for violent and terrifying movies, the ones that are based in history definitely affects me more significantly than the ones that aren't. Especially those that have focus on the primary victims (Tears of the Sun comes to mind,- especially the post village invasion scene and the dvd bonus where war victims speak about their experiences).

Anyway, immersing oneself in the type primary historical evidence that Iris Chang did should drive any human to the depths of despair, even under the best of circumstances. It also is a calling that draws people of different sensibilities than, oh, bubbly "maketing and advertising" types. The work that Iris chang and people like her is of immense importance.

  In response to Old Soldier,I did as Corsair asked me to do.I cleaned up my posts and I plan to stick to the topic at hand.I also deleted my inconsiderate posts.I will not engage in an argument with you.I will respect what Corsair has asked of me and stick to the topic at hand.Also in my last post I apoligized to all.
 I will say again the reason I joined this board was the fact that I was so moved by the compassion that Iris had for other people,she really felt their pain and it's obvious that she wasn't out for fame or fortune,just to help other people.I as some have also posted here had never heard of Iris before that C-Span interview"Book Notes"that was recorded in 1997.I have done a lot of reasearch on this woman and I find her to be the ultimate in human character.I as many have posted am deeply saddend to hear of her death.May Iris Chang rest in peace.

More Iris Chang Discussion Boards

Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?

I recommend those persons that do not accept the conclusion of the family and the police that Iris took her own life, take your ideas to the above discussion board.

Lynne and Tomoko Fight It Out

Banned Posters

Fortunately, the banned posters and Lynne and Tomoko boards have almost no traffic, so quick policing and moderation works.

NOTE There is no telling how long this will be available at San Francisco Chronicle online, so I am posting it here. Right now it can still be read at the source http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../23/EDG7F9VQ821.DTL and from that entry you can search other Iris Chang stories at the Chronicle.
---------------------------------------------------
OPEN FORUM
Unbearable sadness of others' pain

Laurie Barkin

Tuesday, November 23, 2004
 
Iris Chang, the 36-year-old author of "The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II," immersed herself a decade ago in the stories of those who had survived the period in 1937 when Japanese soldiers invaded a city in China and slaughtered 300,000 people. More recently, Chang interviewed survivors of the Bataan Death March. After listening to the stories of American survivors in Kentucky, she suffered a breakdown and was hospitalized for three days. She returned home to the Bay Area, where, despite therapy and medication, she committed suicide Nov. 9.

Compassion fatigue. Secondary trauma. Vicarious traumatization. These are the terms used to describe what happens to empathic people like Chang who lose their way home after bearing witness to stories of man's inhumanity to man. After five years of working as a psychiatric nurse consultant on a trauma unit, I began experiencing nightmares, palpitations, shortness of breath and an ever-growing fear for my children's safety. Then, I attended a trauma conference where I heard the term "vicarious traumatization" for the first time. My symptoms became understandable and I knew that a break from my work was necessary.

Trauma professionals talk about exposure to traumatic events in terms of "dose." Recent developments in trauma research allow us to map changes in the brain that occur as a result of trauma. Even secondary exposure, especially the strong dose that Chang accumulated over time, may cause observable changes. Cops, firefighters, therapists, reporters and frontline health-care workers are also at high risk.

Treatments are available. Taking steps to reduce stress before symptoms appear is even better. This includes a supportive work environment, harmony at home, regular exercise, balancing work with pleasurable activities and time spent with friends, especially ones who make you laugh.

Mourners said that Chang was a person who "felt others' pain intensely" and that she "wouldn't take time off." Another said, "For Iris, no problem was unsolvable." Maybe that's what happened. Iris Chang confronted the reality of evil in our world and died trying to do something about it. I imagine how the voices haunted her nights and trespassed into her days; how each story pulled her in deeper; how she made herself bear the unbearable in order to give words to unfathomable feelings; how she absorbed the suffering of others so that we may learn to be better human beings.

The only problem is that we don't want to listen. We don't want to hear. We don't want to believe. Talking about feelings has never been the fashion in this country. We would rather medicate them or drown them in alcohol. We are not taught how to care for the emotional needs of others. We are uncomfortable when someone we know expresses pain or sorrow. We avoid such situations because we fear we will say the wrong thing or become emotionally overwhelmed ourselves. But acknowledgement, care and comfort are what people who bear witness need. Sometimes though, even the cushion of a loving family and devoted friends isn't enough to rescue those who have descended deep into the pain of others.

Iris Chang illuminated the lives of many people, but in the process, she lost the light of life within herself. Like the firefighters at ground zero after the Sept. 11 attacks, she sifted through the remains of tragedy without a break, without concern for her own mental health. We need to nurture people like her who have dedicated their lives to seeking truth and in so doing, risk losing their way home. We must offer them respite from their work, feed them with appreciation, listen to their feelings and drag them away when they get too close to the maw of despair.

Laurie Barkin (barkinbro@sbcglobal.net), a psychiatric clinical nurse specialist, is writing a book about her work with survivors of trauma.

Page B - 9

reddirtgirl -- are you suggesting that certain personalities, specficially certain women's personalities are not strong enough to write history about horrible events? YOUu wrote "Upon hearing about Iris Chang's depression and death, I had to pause for more than a moment. Not because I could have been a historian like her, but because the study of history had the same effects on her as well as me. And I know what it's like to be in such emotional/mental pain to drive one to do what she did becuase it too is something I struggle with day in and day out."

I know people that avoid reading books like Iris Chang's books because they want to avoid the powerful and sometimes depressing information. Yet, on the other hand they think nothing of going to see a violent and terrifying movie.

"I think you will see Iris Chang's family and close friends successfully resist the tabloidization of her life and death."

I sure hope you are right.

I don't see anything from Timothy Veatch. Maybe he decided his country is calling and went to enlist. (:>)

Mr Greg in # 190 asked a lot of questions that have already been asked and no doubt will continue to be asked about the death of Iris Chang. It's doubtful she bought a gun between 2:00 A.M. and the hour she died. Instant background checks on firearms purchases concentrate on criminal records. I don't think that it has been confirmed Iris was on medication at the time of her fatal decision. There was a note.

In my opinion, the family and police have said all they are going to say. Therefore the lack of answers leaves people like Mr. Greg in a troubled state of mind. I doubt Mr. Greg is the only person worried that there is no public discussion about suspicions arousing from lack of information that the family and police won't reveal.

Obviously, Iris Chang's family has decided that what the public does not already know is not the public's right to know, and the police honor the family's wishes.

Mr. Greg also asked "Is it possible to answer such a question? Maybe a clue is in the note she left behind. But no one is really talking about that note. Wasn't the note left behind by Kurt Cobain published in the papers?"

Iris Chang's note was left for her family, not the public. Upon reflection I recall that in most suicides, the notes are only briefly mentioned and rarely published.

Kurt Cobain was a musical celebrity with thousands of fans. In my opinion Kurt Cobain was clearly and publicly sick for a long time. By contrast, the public was not aware of Iris Chang's condition and therefore the great shock and disbelief.

Just based on listening to a few of his lyrics before he committed suicide, I concluded that Cobain's suicidal trajectory was not only predictible but clearly obvious and therefore it was not a great surprise for me. Cobain's suicidal tendencies were confirmed by the lifestyles of Kobain and his wife Courtney Love. It is useful to note the destructive lifestyle still pursued by Courtney Love.

Any suicide note left by a person such as Kurt Cobain is destined to become public fodder, it's the celebrity pattern.

In my opinion the useful comparisons between the lives of Iris Chang and Kurt Cobain are very limited, except they each took their own life and each had and has, a loyal following. From my point of view, there are more contrasts between Iris Chang and Kurt Cobain than similarities; first and foremost; there was and remains a wide cultural gap.

I think you will see Iris Chang's family and close friends successfully resist the tabloidization of her life and death.

I clearly remember when "The Rape of Nanking" came out. I had just sat down to eat some take out sushi while listening to an interview with her on NPR... Having grown up as a young child hearing my Chinese grandparents recount stories about the Japanese, I was overcome with a strange sense of guilt (which I resolved somewhat by giving the sushi to my dog...).

I was a history major then. After I got the history degree, I decided not to persue history because I found it too depressing. I mean, while doing my (WWII related) senior thesis, I had vivid dreams that took place both in Nazi concentration camps and where they dropped the bombs in Japan.

Upon hearing about Iris Chang's depression and death, I had to pause for more than a moment. Not because I could have been a historian like her, but because the study of history had the same effects on her as well as me. And I know what it's like to be in such emotional/mental pain to drive one to do what she did becuase it too is something I struggle with day in and day out. jpwu@medscape.com

This discussion is indeed going on, in the "Iris Chang Dead by Foul Play?" thread. Scroll down a bit to find it.

I am wondering if the question we are asking here is the correct one? Did Iris Chang kill herself? Has this been the official police report? ARe there not questions that still remain or has this all been established? I suspect that Iris had lots of enemies who hated her for speaking the truth. Had this been a different time they may have just crucified her or shot her from a balcony. Could she have been poisoned with some horrible drug that caused her depression? In the news her husband was quoted as saying that she was despondent around two in the morning. He fell asleep and woke up and reported her missing at five thirty. So what happened in those three and a half hours? The paper said she bought a gun and her family and her friends did not know she bought a gun. But what did the background check reveal when she applied for the gun purchase? Or was it not through a retailer? If she were being treated for depression and on medication would that not show up on the background search for gun ownership? I dont' know. What kind of medication was she taking? I'm troubled by all of this. I am troubled the more I read. I am worried that she may have been killed by someone and yet there is no discussion on this. Maybe these quesions have already been settled by the police. I don't know. All I know is what I read in the papers and what I come across online. But when I read about how suicide in the Japanese culture is an honorable way to make an apology for an offense I get a sick feeling in my stomach. I feel ill because I fear someone hurt her or forced her to do this and yet there seems to be no investigation. I've come across some sites that have made me so mad I want to spit because they are so anti Iris with crap like "this is what comes from telling lies" It is such non sense that I feel like crying and spitting at the same time. At least this is a site where people who care about her life and her message can talk with each other. I know that depression can lead to suicide and that some medications can increase this risk. I've also heard that Asian women have a worse time with depression due in part to the stigma of mental illness. If this is what happened, well that to me is a different discussion still to come. I am not ready to accept that she did this to herself. But may she rest in peace. May those who cared for her continue her struggle. I don't know why but when I think of this I hear a Paul Simon song in my head "You can beat us with wires, you can beat us with chains, you can run out your roads, but you can't out run the history train" And I would add that there is no blind silence that truth will ever recognize. Her voice is still heard. She fought for the truth. She fought for the victioms of war crimes in Nanking. I suspect that one day her dream of some major movie on this event will one day be made and seen. What will her detractors say on that day? But I have no answer to the question raised here. Why did Iris Chang Kill herself? To that I only hear a meaningless echo in my head. Is it possible to answer such a question? Maybe a clue is in the note she left behind. But no one is really talking about that note. Wasn't the note left behind by Kurt Cobain published in the papers? Including the whole reference to that Neil Young song about how 'its better to burn out that fade away"? I don't understand what happened to Cobain either, but at least we saw his note. Maybe the note is too painful and private that only the family needs to see it. If so fine, but shouldn't some police confirmation be made public about the note? The autopsy? And/or - where did this gun come from?

Thank you "LA Sky Tours". There are some really fine tributes to Iris Chang coming in, yours the latest. Her brother Michael expressed surprise at the numbers of well-wishers touched by her work, and seemed equally surprised at the strong sense of loss felt even by strangers. Iris Chang - The Power of One.

Edited by author 11-22-2004 04:45 PM
Seeing humans at their worst and having to document it must be extremily taxing on one's soul...

Rest in peace and thank you for all ur contributions to mankind Iris... I will keep u in my prayers.

I hope all of ur hard work will always act as a mirror to remind us to guard and fight against any human indecency at all times.

Wrote "and she was very interested in the inhuman Japanese atrocities and brutalities that my family witnessed during WWII in the Philippines."

The Japanese coerced young women to be "comfort women" hostesses. They beheaded village chiefs to intimidate and enforce their rule. They also had collaborators, like Corey Acquino's family.

  In respone to Corsiar and Old Soldier,I'm going to get back to the reason I joined this board in the first place.
  I was so moved by Iris Chang during that C-SPAN interview on "Book Notes"I was moved by her passion and compassion,the chocking back of tears and then shocked to learn of her death.
  I imediatly launched a google search and found this board and people pooring out their feelings and I decided to do the same,though some how I got off course.
  I beleive that Iris Chang was a very true to life human being who truley cared for others and I find it very sad that she is no longer with us.
  My apologies to all.

I apologize, my last post was not about Iris Chang. But, Mr. Veatch is way off topic and I think needed some comeuppance. The big reason that Iris Chang appeals to old troopers like me and corsair is her warrior spirit, her deep sense of right and wrong and her quest for justice. That resonates with us, and I think it would resonate with those young men now fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now, it's off to work I go! I'll check in tonight.

Mr. Timothy Veatch. YOu wrote "I didn't fight in Viet-Nam,I wasn't of fighting age.I will tell you that if my country was to call on me to fight,I will fight."

That's real easy to say Timothy, there is no draft. There is no draft but your country is calling you. What's your problem?

Timothy Veatch writes in #182 "It seems that I have ruffled your feathers,that was not my intent."

You overestimate your powers Timothy Veatch, but when I see certain kinds of B.S. being shoveled, I put a stop to it, so you didn't ruffle my feathers. You were peddling the notion that you heard or read that U.S. forces committed 1,000 rapes per day in Vietnam, and that is just so calculatingly obscene and devious as to nauseate the strongest stomach.

Very little of what you have posted recently really connects to why Iris Chang took her own life, and I am certain that Iris didn't not end her life because of some silly campus generated crap that U.S. forces raped 1,000 per day in Vietnam.

Since your posts have taken a decidely odd wrong turn from the main topic, I am asking you now to clean them up and get back on course.

I have another discussion board that might be more suitable for you at this time and I am contemplating the creation of other boards on different topics. Try http://www.quicktopic.com/28/H/vAGmYRyWRC7h and if that doesn't work for you, say so.

Iris Chang's death is a huge loss to the world, specially to those inspired by her writings and speeches. Although suicide from depression is an immediate possibility, I wish there will be a thorough investigation into all other possibilities. Those closest to her may know of other dangers, including threats, to her life.

I met her when she was signing my copy of "Rape of Nanking", and she was very interested in the inhuman Japanese atrocities and brutalities that my family witnessed during WWII in the Philippines.

If her death was indeed by suicide from mental depression, I would now have mixed feelings concerning the above conversation--wondering if my statements added to the heavy burden she was carrying in her notes and in her mind.

May she rest in peace, and may her ideas continue to inspire people for many years to come.

Iris Chang's death is a huge loss to the world, specially to those inspired by her writings and speeches. Although suicide from depression is an immediate possibility, I wish there will be a thorough investigation into all other possibilities. Those closest to her may know of other dangers, including threats, to her life.

May she rest in peace, and may her ideas continue to inspire people for many years to come.

Timothy Veatch wrote "I have read that this happened at least 1000 times per day during the war."

That's blatant nonsense of the kind peddled by the same media whores and college professors that are now wailing and gnashing their teeth that John Kerry was defeated by Vietnam War vets like me, because it was lies like that got John Kerry into trouble in the first place, and of course none of this has anything to do with why Iris Chang killed herself.

Tim Veatch, Apology accepted. Your standing in the forum is unchanged.

Edited by author 11-21-2004 09:57 PM
I met Iris once when she gave a talk that I video taped. She asked me if I would send her a copy and I was happy to do that. She sent me thank you cards and emails thanking me, which I did not expect. I went to her funeral and was struck by how many people she was able to take time for, to care for, to be friendly with. She had a great big loving heart and she cared deeply for others. I still can't believe she took her own life and still find myself scanning the papers to see if the police have something to reveal that might help us understand what or how this happened. Some one at the funeral said something about how She really is in all of us and she will be remembered long after most of us are long gone. In a hundred years people will still know the name Iris Chang and they will still read her work. This is true and a comfort, but I am sad and heartsick over her death. It makes no sense. I wished I'd had a chance to know her better. To see her speak again. To me, a stranger really, she signed her emails and thank you cards with "please stay in touch." She was amazing.

And I don't agree with all those people on the internet who write things about how her work drove her to suicide just because her research was so depressing. She was a warrior for truth and her work gave her great power. The Mercury news had an article on how great writers have committed suicide in the past, as though this were a particular problem for authors. Yes Hemingway took his life, Virginia Wolfe, and other writers too. But this explanation sheds no light on what happened to Iris. Questions remain and this tragic death makes no sense. I did like it that Happy Birthday was sung at her funeral. If there is another life after this one I'm sure she is already there, busy loving people and fighting against the inhumanity that plaques humanity in the name of war.

Edited by author 11-21-2004 09:06 PM
I am repeating some comments but I never heard of 'The Rape of Nanking' or Iris Chang before I was watching cspan booknotes (what a relief from 'TV', do you know what I mean?) when I saw that crawl on the bottom of the screen and took a whole new view on what she (Iris) was saying. Of course, she was pretty, that had to play a role at times in her research and it got my attention, I admit. But when it (the crawl about her shooting herself) got my attention, I immediately wondered....why? This was a person way beyond me, a person who was really trying to make a difference, an apparently successful person. Why?.... As the topic says. I have my own opinions. Y'all won't or don't want to hear them, I believe. Obviously, Iris was pushing us toward not making war and not repeating what happened at Nanking...But: Big but: We are condemned to repeat it. I am so sorry to believe this. And I am also consigned to the fact that human behavior and human personality are here (and into the future) to stay. Sorry. This is about my 6th edit, but I want Corsair or others who knew Iris to comment on this. Isn't humankind going to keep on going? And I don't mean that positively, you know. We (and I feel that is important, very important, WE....I am not excluding myself) are going to keep doing the same things, in general and in concert and, unfortunately, the same as we have. We will, won't we? But I hope not. Doesn't matter to me, I am going to die soon, I am 53. Good luck ( I don't believe in luck, don't believe in anything too much at all) to y'all and my children and grandchildren. All I can do is hope everyone has a happy life. Nanking and Iraq and southern US negroes and women and children and the poor and disenfranchised and ...and....the list goes on....know life is a toss of the dice. and worse....I am so sorry about being so negative...I am a positive person generally...love you all, Jeffrey Joe Johns

  Corsair,I deeply apologize for my posts last night.This has been a very emotional and saddining experience for many,even for people like me who never met Iris.You have to admit that it's very rare to see,hear or meet someone with so much character.I have read that you knew her so you know what it's like to loose someone you love.I'm sorry.
 What happened last night?I just became disgusted with some of the posts that were so very disrespectful and I allowed myself to indulge in it and sink to the same low level that those other people did.
   Please accept my apology.

Edited by author 11-21-2004 04:19 PM
Banned Users:

Two users from AOL
One user from Rogers Cable, Toronto
One user from APIC registry

In addition, abusive users can be reported to their ISP, as in the case of the banned AOL users.

Offensive language gets your post deleted. For questions about user etiquette, consult
User Policy.

More later.

Edited by author 11-21-2004 11:52 AM
I've heard, and spoken language like that used by the persons that were banned, it's childish, it doesn't amuse me, it serves no useful purpose and maybe there is a time and a place for it, but it doesn't belong in this kind of discussion. Good for you corsair, too bad you could only ban them.

P.S. I met Iris Chang twice, once on a book tour, and once at a conference where she spoke. Iris Chang was a great speaker and I regret she's gone.

Cindy Wang in #169 "I am glad Topic Admin. deleted the disgusting remarks of those few people that would disrupt this forum."

Thanks Cindy, It had to be done. I don't lose sleep over who is happy or not happy with the way I run the forum.

I am doing this out of affection and respect for Iris Chang and the message she brought.

You're right about part of the funeral at the graveside on a gentle hill that overlooks the chapel. Actually not everyone could sing, they were too choked up with emotion, some did join hands, I was one. A man in front of me to my right called out for us sing one last Happy Birthday for Iris.

Inside the chapel at the end of about a dozen eulogies for Iris in English, Cantonese and Mandarin, we sang "Amazing Grace".

Some newspapers reported 400 at the funeral, some reported 600, and 600 sounds reasonable. I'd say it could have run to a 1,000 or more by 12:30 to 1:00 P.M. as late-arriving well-wishers started to drop by.

From out of China, a thoughtful reflection published in Shanghai Star, 2004-11-18. The article is unsigned.

The article begins;

"A moment to stop and meditate

"I suppose it's just a matter of statistics. Everyday, someone famous or well-known dies. While the media gorges itself on the death of Yasser Arafat and its implications, it might be easy to overlook the passing of Chinese American author Iris Chang. Chang was found dead, an apparent suicide. She was 36."

And ends with this; "This, I am afraid, will never make any sense."

Get the rest of it here: http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2004/1118/vo2-1.html

At Iris Chang's funeral on Friday (Nov. 19) there were about 600 people in attendance. At the end they joined hands and sang a stanza of "America the Beautiful." Then, in a last gesture of celebrating the life that ended too soon, they sang "Happy Birthday to You" as her casket was lowered into the ground. She was actually born March 28, 1968.

I am glad Topic Admin. deleted the disgusting remarks of those few people that would disrupt this forum.

Here is an article in the SF Chronicle about the funeral

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c.../20/BAGF39UV0A1.DTL

Matt

Corsair:

I tried to register and was prevented because of the 300-person limit, as well. I sent an e-mail asking them to expand the number of people on forum.

You do have to register at the Mercury News.

Here is another article on Iris's impact in China: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../20/DDGN29TV0G1.DTL

Corsair, could you send me an e-mail; I wanted to ask you something off-forum. mdavidson7-at-mac-dot-com

Matt

MattD wrote in #148 "And here is another publication on her" and referred to a story in Asian Week by Terry Hong "Living With Loss" (Nov. 19, 2004).

I know something about the problem that Iris Chang's web pages had in attracting web visits, and I replied to Hong this morning both in the Asian Week discussion forum and as a letter to the editor for publication. I'll just wait and see if they publish it.

A few minutes ago I tried to register in Asian Week's Forum, but was rejected, the forum is maxed out at 300 users! I'll just wait and see what happens with that too.

You don't have to register to read "Living With Loss", by Terry Hong, at Asian Week.

But, last time I checked I think you have to register with San Jose Murky-News to read their online stories.

General Rules: Respect your fellow users. Please do not harass or insult other users. If you disagree with someone, state your case politely. Do not resort to personal insults or name calling. Do not spam the boards by posting irrelevant topics, replies, or advertisments. Board Owner and Topic Adminstrator reserve the right, at our discretion, to delete any inappropriate postings.

Edited by author 11-20-2004 09:45 AM
Deleted post from "Mukai" #149 because:
(1) inappropriate content and offered no proof for assertions made by "Mukai".

Deleted replies to "Mukai" from Gaijin truth, #151, and benny #150.

Explanation - The post from "Mukai" was judged to be better suited for topic discussions with the theme of "I Am Japanese And Hate Iris Chang Because". Since we are not currently gathering posts to make Japanese people look bad or ridiculous and to become the subject of excessive criticism and equally hateful discussion; the post was removed.

Here is an article in the San Jose Mercury on Iris's funeral
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...valley/10227648.htm

And here is another publication on her
http://news.asianweek.com/news/view_articl...4e5e335d037433c7107

It is so sad. May her family find peace, and may the light she has brought to injustice in the world not be extinguished.

Matt

Edited by author 11-19-2004 09:53 PM
It's hard to post a message after Corsair's note. But I will. I think from what from I read that followers of cspan and followers of books are shocked. They (we) are looking into her cause and her books. Some judge her books, especially 'the rape' to be ok. Others dismiss her. She was young. She died young. The young will stand by her. They should. Big time. She (I feel) found a reason to write.

Metroactive
Remembering Iris Chang Local author Iris Chang, 1968-­2004, spoke with passion and force about unspeakable incidents
By Ami Chen Naim

I FIRST met author Iris Chang at a teahouse in Mountain View, around this time of year, in 1996. We were there to discuss her then forthcoming book, The Rape of Nanking, and local efforts to bring Japanese military atrocities in China during World War II to light. Meeting her was, in many ways, like meeting myself. We were both 28 at the time, both Chinese-Americans, both writers and activists of different sorts, and both of us claimed grandparents who had fled the Chinese capital, Nanking, before roughly 50,000 Japanese troops descended on the city. The troops then descended to the lowest depths of cruelty known to humankind as they tortured, raped and slaughtered nearly half the civilians—man, woman, child and infant—that remained trapped in Nanking. Death toll estimates range from 200,000 to 400,000.

The horrors Chang wrote about—and spent the last decade of her life bringing to the fore in American media—were nearly unspeakable. And yet Chang made it her business to speak with passion and force about them. In contrast to what most Americans know about the German holocaust and Nazi atrocities during World War II, they are "abysmally ignorant," in her words, of Japanese war crimes against the Chinese. Indeed, after the war, as Germans were brought up for tribunals at Nuremberg, the United States brokered deals with the Japanese to obtain germ warfare and human biology research. In exchange, Japanese war crimes would go largely unpunished. Other reasons for the ignorance about Japan's actions include a global perception of the Japanese as victims after the bombings at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as a historical Chinese reluctance to engage in political activism in this country.

Which is where Chang and I differed from our parents, along with a whole generation of American-born Chinese who feel confident enough as citizens to speak our minds. Chang is a heroine to the older Chinese community. Her memorial services in Los Altos are expected to be full to overflowing. I admired Chang both as a Chinese and as a
young woman. She was dogged, articulate and compassionate. In 1996, I described Chang as having "a sweet and long face, and gracious manner," which heated quickly during discussions of Japanese actions in China. According to her literary agent, Chang suffered from depression the half-year before her alleged suicide in Los Gatos last week.

She died at the age of 36, my age now. Her son is just 2, and my baby girl is nearly 1.

I wondered if the work had gotten to her—such grisly, grim material. But depression can sneak up on anyone. Chang's heroine was Minnie Vautrin, a woman Chang called "the American Anne Frank," who helped save tens of thousands of Chinese lives and kept a daily diary in Nanking. Vautrin herself committed suicide—reportedly because she felt she could not do enough. "I would like to make sure her diary is published," Chang had told me. What else did she want? "A full and sincere apology [from Japan] to all of its victims from World War II. Reparations for victims. A guarantee that the next generation of Japanese schoolchildren will be taught the full extent of wartime atrocities committed by the Japanese. That's a good start."

Chang did not just see the Japanese army in China as evil, but recognized that evil is possible for all human beings. She remarked at "how easily we all can become desensitized." And it is always our own actions that are hardest to see as damaging.

Something to keep in mind as our nation is engaged in military operations overseas.

Services for Iris Chang will be held Thursday at the Spangler Mortuary in Los Altos, 5-­8:30pm, and a memorial led by Ignatius Ding of the Global Alliance for Preserving the
History of World War II in Asia will be held Friday at 10am at the Gate of Heaven Cemetery, Los Altos. Books by Iris Chang: 'The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II,' 'The Chinese in America,' and 'Thread of the Silkworm.' Also of interest: 'American Goddess at the Rape of Nanking: The Courage of Minnie Vautrin,' by Hua-Ling Hu.

Source: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/11.17.04/chang-0447.html
Metroactive: Remembering Iris Chang

Edited by author 11-19-2004 09:10 AM
Global Alliance for Preserving the History of WW II in Asia P.O. Box 14265, Fremont, CA 94539 USA, (408) 446-2011http://www.global-alliance.net, email: gainfo@global-alliance.net

Special Announcement November 18, 2004

Please note that the Global Alliance has collected a number of eulogies and related news articles from various sources and created a 20-page special "Iris Chang Memorial Pamphlet" (bilingual edition) for the funeral service on November 19, 2003. We will make the document available to all Global Alliance chapters and supporters at cost of the printing and mailing/shipping. In addition, we have also acquired a large number of copies of a special issue of the national newspaper, Asainweek (http://news.asianweek.com/), with the two cover stories reporting the untimely death of Chinese American author Iris Chang and her brilliant but short career as a WW II history author, historian, human rights activist. We will include a copy of this along with each copy of the special memorial pamphelt purchased by mail order. This is a one-time offer since we will not keep stock of this document. All orders will be treated on "First Come First Served" basis until we run out copies in our inventory.

Each copy of the pamphelt and the Asianweek will cost $2,50. We can only accpt orders of multiple of 25 copies -- that is an order of 25 copies, 50 copies and so on -- because the logistics invloved in processing the requests.

Please send mail to this account to reserve your copies as soon as possible. Mail your check to the mailbox address listed above and include a noteindicating how many copies you are ordering and your typed or printed return mailing address. Make the check payable to "Global Alliance."

Please contact Ignatius Y. Ding at ignatius@global-alliance.net for further information.

Edited by author 11-19-2004 09:19 AM
Press Release
November 18, 2004
Visitation and Funeral Service for Iris Chang in Los Altos

Please note that the public visitation to see Iris for the last time will be held from 5:00pm to 8:30pm on November 18, 2004 at the Spangler Mutuaries, 399 S. San Antonio, Los Altos, CA. Phone: (650) 948-6619.

the funeral service will be held at 10:00am on November 19, 2004 at the Gate of Heaven Cemetary Chapel, 22555 Cristo Rey Drive, Los Altos, CA, Phone: (650) 428-3730.

The family has respectfully requested that no camera or video equipments will be allowed in the chapel or at the burial site on Friday. Video news distribution will be provided through the Reuters News Services recording with a pool camera and duplicated and transmitted with the assistance provided by KNTV/NBC immediately after the service. Please contact Mr. Kevin Regan of Reuters News Services for further information or assistance at kevin.regan@reuters.com. On-site media coordinator will be Judy Ma (jooties@aol.com). Please contact them in advance.

Someone thinks that there might be a lot of things behind Iris Chang's death. I saw this at http://www.IrisChang.us.

           May her soul rest in peace. I will continue to fight with growing confidence.

Edited by author 11-19-2004 01:29 AM
Timothy Veatch in #140 re: televising the Iris Chang Memorial?

I wouldn't be surprised Timothy, but I'm guessing the TV footage will most likely be saved for the evening news. There was a television truck from one of the SF Bay area stations tonight at the mortuary for the visitation, and there were a few professional looking camera rigs, I met one reporter for a Hong Kong news agency and saw a few people holding reporters notebooks, some of them students I'd bet. Iris Chang was charismatic and she was magical around students. I sure will miss her and I probably echo the thoughts of hundreds if not thousands of people. Yes, the memorial service begins at 10:00 A.M. Pacific time in a Catholic chapel at a Catholic cemetery.

10:30 P.M. I saw Iris Chang's mother and father on KTSF television about an hour ago, footage from the scene at the visitation.

  I have a question.I have read that there will be a memorial in remembrance of Iris Chang in California tomorrow at 10:00 am pacific time.Does anyone know if this will be televised?If so,what network will this air on and what time will it air in different timezones?

Edited by author 11-18-2004 05:25 PM
to corsair,

Please delete my post. I will not post again. Thank you

MattD in post #132 re: Iris Chang Scholarship Fund.

You're welcome Matt (:>) But seriously, I found it on the Committee of 100 web page, an organization which Iris Chang was a member of. They had goofed up some of the information and I was leery of it, so I actually called the fund administrator's office and talked to Stacy there and verified all the particulars.

Edited by author 11-18-2004 05:04 PM
Read the warning at the top of this page.

The purpose of this discussion board is to discuss why Iris Chang killed herself. Grinding swords and axes and fighting about Japanese war crimes and Chinese victimhood should be taken to other discussion boards, for example Discuss Iris Chang's Rape of Nanking book.

Lynne and Tomoko and possibly a few others are getting close to fighting on this discussion board.
 
I won't stand for it.

So they can fight it out in the new discussion board Lynne and Tomoko Fight It Out or be banned from the other web pages.

Tomoko The discussion is getting out of control. You are dangerously close to being banned, having your posts deleted, and being reported to your ISP. Please make sure you have registered your e-mail address where you see the subscribe button. You can edit your posts.

Lynne The discussion is getting out of control. You are dangerously close to being banned, having your posts deleted, and being reported to your ISP.Please make sure you have registered your e-mail address where you see the subscribe button. Save yourself. Edit the provocations from your posts.

On Lynne's comment: "Please read them youself and you know what kind of people you are???!!!!"....

I think it's the soldiers to blame, not the Japanese people as a whole.

Edited by author 11-18-2004 02:08 PM
To Tomoko,

I have read some of your posts and disagree with you on Iris don't understand Japanese thought.

I sincerely doubt on many Japanese know about the true history in WWII. Have you read the book reviews in Amazon for "the Rape of Nanking"? All Japanese as a group put one star there and a lot of hateful message incluing "lier", "fake photos"...... Please read them youself and you know what kind of people you are???!!!!

I thank Iris to let whole world knows the truth and we will have to remember the tragety or it will happen again!!!

Thank you, Corsair for adding the information about the scholarship fund for Iris. This is a very appropriate way to honor her. The University of Illinois has 30, 000 undergraduates, almost all of whom pass through Gregory Hall and the Communications office on the first floor. They now will know the name "Iris Chang", and I hope that some of them look to see who this person was.

Matt

Edited by author 11-18-2004 12:38 PM
Iris Chang Scholarship Fund

Iris Chang was a member of Committe of 100. This item was found on Committee of 100 web site (http://www.committee100.org/).

A scholarship has been established by her family at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign in honor of Iris. The address is:
University of Illinois Foundation
Attn: Jeff Roley
1305 West Green Street
Urbana, IL 61801-2962

Make Checks payable to:
University of Illinois Foundation
In the memo field:
Iris Chang Scholarship Fund

Questions? Contact:
 Stacy (217) 244-7912
 Jeff Roley (217) 244-7912
 Jeff Roley roley@uif.uillinois.edu

(posted to board Nov. 18, 2004)

Asian-American Journalists Association (AAJA) Mourns the Passing of Iris Chang

Press release last Thursday from AAJA

November 11, 2004

AAJA mourns the passing of Iris Chang, 1989 AAJA Scholarship recipient, AAJA-San Francisco Bay Area member, dedicated journalist and noted author.

Iris sadly died Wednesday in California at the age of 36. Best known for her books, "The Rape of Nanking" and "The Chinese in America," Iris published her first book at the age of 25, after working at The Associated Press and the Chicago Tribune.

"Through her books, Iris represented an important voice chronicling the history of Asians and Asian-Americans," said Mae Cheng, AAJA president and Assistant City Editor at Newsday. "She was passionate about journeying through her cultural history and uncovering the woes and strengths that made a statement about our society and times. And throughout her success, she remained a true friend to AAJA. She will be greatly missed."

Learn more about Iris Chang and her contributions as a journalist, author, and voice for the AAPI community.

I have read "The Rape of Nanking". I have also been to China 28 times, and to about 35 cities, including Nanjing. One cannot guess at the atrocities committed there by looking at the city today. When I read such a book, I feel as though I have gotten to know the author. I feel devastated by her death. I can only guess what made her so despondent that she felt compelled to take her own life. It seems that investigating human atrocity can be dangerous for one's psyche. I know I have diffculty understanding what can make people turn into the depraved monsters that some Japanese soldiers were in WWII. I hope Iris find peace for her soul.

I am quite sadden by her loss. I read Rape of Nanking many years ago, don't recall all the details, but felt the tenor
of the book to be ambitious, courageous and explosive in revelation. She vaulted a mostly obscure bit of Chinese history on to the world stage. Perhaps in her crusade for justice the weight of public criticism and scrutiny proved too much...or behind the iron will a softer, nurturing life beckoned.

The death of Iris Chang is a tragedy. It has hit me particularly hard. I'm not sure why, precisely, but I can point to some things. We were approximately the same age, and both of us attended the University of Illinois. I did not know her when I was there. But we walked the same halls and had classes in the same buildings (given our majors, journalism and philosophy). I too am a scholar, and I am someone who places a great amount of stake in my ability to write and think. And I too have suffered devastating depression. I know how much it hurts, and before I experienced it I never understood how someone could take their own life. In the midst of that darkness, I understood. All that I held most dear about myself seemed to be slipping away--my mental clarity, my ambition, my work more generally. I had identified myself with my work, and I was not able to work. What did I have left? I did not know Iris personally, but I do know some of the details of her depression second-hand. The pain she must have felt, and the anxiety and fear and guilt--they must have been so terrible.


Iris Chang showed the Boomers that Generation X was not a generation of "slackers." We have ambition, drive, and a deep sense of conscience and responsibility.


Maybe it is because I identify both with her drive and ambition as a scholar and I know the agony of the darkness of depression that I am so filled with grief. What she must have thought about as she drove away from her house early that morning. How totally alone she must have felt, as she sat with her note in her car.


She was a brilliant voice for justice from my generation, and she was in such pain. I grieve her loss.

   I would like to write an apology for the material I posted on message 101.After further thought,I realize that I became way too emotional and allowed my feelings to spill over into my writing.If what I wrote offended or hurt any family or friends of Iris,I'm deeply sorry.Please accept my apology.I did not intend to hurt anyone.At this time I will cease to write about this subject due to the fact that I don't know what happened.I will say that I have been deeply moved over this entire situation,as many have.Also,It's obvious that Iris Chang still continues to inspire people.In a way,she still lives.What a wonderful person she was,definatly one in a million.

I heard about her book, but never read it. Now I am paying attention to her after her death. Such an interesting person. Such a beautiful with intelligent. very sad death. Maybe she was killed by some unknown person. Very sad. I hope that the police put investigations for her.

Edited by author 11-17-2004 06:37 PM
I have been very very sad since hearing the death of Iris Change and still don't want to believe it.

She is such a strong telanted young woman and I can't see any reason she killed herself.

I first saw her was on PBS talking about her book and I was very moved by her and bought her book. As a Chinese born in Nanjing, I have been told many many terrible stories about Japanese Invation but I was suprised to know no one outside China knows -- Even most Japanese don't know the turth or don't want to know the truth.

I met Iris Chang in a book tour in Portland, OR. I was very very impressed by her passion for the book and her courage to face the death threats from Japanese right wing group.

What happened in the April book tour no one knows. From what her husband describe is that she was seriously depressed right after the book tour and hopitalize.

I read a article written by a professor interviewing her last year that Iris was living under white terror. She constantly changed her phone numbers and don't let people know that she has a baby boy.

She is such a strong young woman and a mom of 2 year old. I don't believe she has any reason to kill herself. I hope the investigation will be continue and we need to find out the truth.

May she rest in peace.

Sean,

I appreciate you taking your comment vis-a-vis "Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?" to the other discussion board rather than putting it here.

Edited by author 11-17-2004 09:34 AM
The topic of this discussion board is "Why Did Iris Chang Kill Herself? If you want to be notified of updates subscribe with your e-mail address (see above).

If you do not want to stick to the Why? and have other ideas you want to discuss concerning Iris Chang's death, go to this new topic: Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?

Anybody posting to the new topic Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play? without subscribing to it first and maintaining a subscription will be banned and their posts will be deleted. Be on your best behavior. Don't shame yourself. Make positive contributions to the new discussion.

This board will continue as before.

In the branched thread
Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?

GregO violated the rules:

Anybody posting to this board without subscribing first and maintaining a subscription (see above) will be banned and their posts will be deleted. Be on your best behavior. Don't shame yourself. Make positive contributions to this discussion. -- and his post was deleted.

GregO gets one time leniency and his post was transferred to this thread (see below).


GregO 2
11-16-2004 09:44 PM
 
Such an incredible writer, and wonderful person is gone. I have been troubled by this for a few days now. Was she so depressed she went into a suicide level? Why then was she released from the hospital if she clearly was NOT feeling better? Or plain and simple did she step somewhere or on someone she shouldn't have? Looks like this will be treated as a closed case, too bad. Sounding cliched' but there may be more here than we'll ever know.

"Or is it because she is now trying to tell us something
we are still not aware?" Prior post.

People only die when their ideas die. Iris Chang's ideas are powerful because they are universal. They derive their power not from the relative obscurity of the Rape of Nanking, but from the pervasive reaction of horror once it is discovered.

I too had some familiarity with the idea that a massacre had occurred at Nanking, long before Iris Chang's book was published. But I knew nothing of the details. And bought her book several months ago precisely because I couldn't explain my limited knowledge of it to friends who had never heard of it at all -- mature, educated Americans who DID NOT HAVE A CLUE.

And I realized too, now, that I had begun but not finished Iris' book a few months ago. Is the message of her death simply that it is not enough to acknowledge something. That we need to actually do something to combat the inhumanity about us in all forms? Was she simply raising the volume to levels we could not ignore? How many of us heard her, really heard her, for the first time with her death?

PS I have no idea what is known or how broadly known in Japan. But publishing there cannot be a serious issue with the web now pervasive. If someone in fact has a Japanese translation, put it up on a web page. The page itself will cost you 10 bucks a month or less. Dreamweaver, a WYSIWYG web page creation product, can be downloaded free for thirty days. Anyone in Japan can read anything published on the "World Wide" Web.

  In response to Tomoko,I want you to know that I respect your opionion.I mean no harm to the family of Iris Chang.I just think that all people should get behind a cause and fight for it as she did.Iris Chang is the best role model that has come along in very many years.She has to be a great example for all to follow,no matter what we are fighting for.I would like for her family and friends to know that this special woman has inspired many people as well as myself.If I can be of any help,I will be glad to do so.My opionion is just that,an opionion.I can't say whether I am wright or wrong.I respest your opionion also Tomoko.I never implied that she was murdered by the Japanesse as many have implied.Anyone who has lost a loved one unexpectingly at the blink of an eye has to wonder what really happened.Suicide is a very complicated matter.I have had friends and family members commit suicide.I have also had some threaten to do so without actually carrying out the act,crying out to me to help them.I have experienced this first hand.I can relate to this and I just would like to help.I still beleive that no one except for Iris knows what really happened or why.I beleive that it's impossible for someone to know exactly what is going on in another persons mind,we may have some clues but no one except for that person knows.Depresssion is a very complicated problem that no one has solved.If it was solved,we would not still have this problem.
   My best wishes and heart felt sorrow go out to the family of Iris Chang,I know how you feel,beleive me.

Thanks. I have been told that I write English in academic style and that some people don't like to read it.

As for Iris' death. I am not sure that we can speculate about another person's mind. One of my heroes, German philosopher Jurgen Habermas spent his whole life talking about what happened to the Jews and has a happy personal life. Filmmakers like Warner Herzog have also looked at holocaust, insanity, death, murder, etc. for decades and not had any negative mental effects. Maybe Iris Chang was effected differently by touching tragedy. However, famous people are real people too. She had real relationships, real ambitions and real fears. I don't know what they are but she must have had some real demons. However, if she was able to write the Nanking book, I don't think that anything in her research could break her spirit. It must be something more personal, I think.

I also don't think the Japanese intellectual enviornment would have contribued to Iris Chang's turmoil. In 2001, there was a new textbook that tried to cover up the massacre. There were so many protests (I went to a talk and rally at my university)and in the end, only 0.03% of Japanese students are using the bad book (local school boards get to vote). Miss Chang must have found this to be encouraging.

I just read of her death, and was pretty deeply shocked. She was very young, and a very important researcher/writer.

My grandfather's best friend, Solomon, was killed by the Japanese at Bataan. His death must be, in fact, the one death of someone I never knew that I take most personally, for some reason. Maybe it's because I was so close to my grandfather, who died when I was eight - and this was his best friend, best man at his wedding to my grandmother. Pop-Pop never talked about him to me that I can remember, but Mom-Mom did. Many years later, she still would try to see if she could see his face in photographs of The March.

Knowing what I know about that horrid event in history, I can imagine the sorts of things she came up against... and she was talking with these againg American fighters face-to-face. It must have been a harrowing experience. It is terrible that she could not get through this to the completion of this work - and the relief and lightness that would have been available with its completion. Sadly, it seems she was so passionate about and enveloped by her work that she did not allow much levity into her life. Much too focused. Maybe it is a lesson for us, but one very hard-bought with such a tragic loss.

May she be much happier from now on.

Tomoko- I am relieved. No, since you restated your thoughts, I don't have my paranoid thoughts. I see what you mean about 'Japanese thought since the end of the war'. Sorry. I was reading too fast or it didn't sink in. Thank you for your response. Please forgive me. I am judging your response now to be sincere. That said, do you think your thoughts and views, if they are genuine and sincere, if they were the thoughts and views of many people could have contributed to Iris's unease and self-doubts? Do you have an opinion as to why she did what she did? That is, you know, the subject, however painful, of this topic.

"Japanese thought" is a subject

"Japanese thought" is modified by "since the end of the war"

(same as "Japanese economics since the end of the war")

"Japanese thought since the end of the war is not really her subject" makes sense, I think. I mean, she did not study Japanese thought, she studied the war in the 1930s and 1940s.

I'm confused again, why does saying that she made a mistake in talking about Japanese thinking about war denigrate her? Ah, I don't think that you can say Japan will do a massacre again, we have a constitution that prevents our soldiers from being sent to fight in other countries. I'm not a government official. I don't try to justify anything, I'm just trying to clear up a misunderstanding. It seems that a lot of people think that all Japanese people have forgotten about Nanking. I don't think that this is the case as there are a lot of books about it. I don't think that this denigrates Miss Chang but it shows that more people here know about the Nanking massacre. Is this not the case?

I feel that Iris Chang documented what she saw and heard. For others to compartmentalize this in ways that bring up nationalism and party loyalties and money and you before me... only point out, obviously, that she was right. Humankind forsooke themselves. We did this to us. You, and I, are to blame.

Well, I am a Japanese graduate researcher so maybe I am or can become and engaged scholar investigating this subject. Also, Miss Chang was indeed investigating a subject but her subject was the invasion of China, right? JapaJnese thought since the end of the war was not really her subject. When you read "The Rape of Nanking" there are no references to all of the works that I mentioned in my earlier post. Also, I'm not sure if saying that a Japanese is biased in this case is really fair. That is like saying that Miss Chang is biased because she is Chinese, right? Some people say that and they are probably wrong. In any case, I'm talking about something very different than Miss Chang was. Not massacre but the way that massacre is remembered.

I copied your post so I could respond better. Since you are a graduate researcher you should appreciate what Iris went through to document these atrocities. You say "Japanese thought since the end of the war was not really her subject" doesn't really make sense in English, son. Please re-explain. I am beginning to think you may be a Japanese political official who will say anything. Anything to justify like our gov't will about Iraq. To say 'ok, we admit we did it, we are sorry' does not begin to address 'will we do it again, if the situation merits it'. You seem to denigrate Iris. Are you?

Well, I am a Japanese graduate researcher so maybe I am or can become and engaged scholar investigating this subject. Also, Miss Chang was indeed investigating a subject but her subject was the invasion of China, right? Japanese thought since the end of the war was not really her subject. When you read "The Rape of Nanking" there are no references to all of the works that I mentioned in my earlier post. Also, I'm not sure if saying that a Japanese is biased in this case is really fair. That is like saying that Miss Chang is biased because she is Chinese, right? Some people say that and they are probably wrong. In any case, I'm talking about something very different than Miss Chang was. Not massacre but the way that massacre is remembered.

Tomoko, in response to message 110.....your response is very encouraging BUT.....BUT......we are not engaged scholars investigating this, are we? Iris was, wasn't she? Will you admit that? She was spending her life talking to people, reading documents. You, being Japanese, may be allowed to be somewhat, well, you know, biased. You are Japanese, aren't you? I am reading what you have to say, and considering it. But we both are speaking from less than Iris was aware of. That's the way I feel. Do you?

Sorry about calling you "somebody" M. but there are so many posts here, I feel pretty flustered! It seems to me more and more that while Miss Chang wrote a very passionate history of the massacre, for some reason, she did not know a lot about the way that Nanking has been told about in Japan. I read somewhere that Miss Chang does not know Japanese, maybe this is why. However, I think that a lot of people are mad at Japanese because they think that we all try to cover up the bad things in the past. In Japan, there are some idiots who say that the Nanking massacre did not happen but maybe the best way to get rid of them is to ignore them. If nobody buys their books, they will go away. However, I am wondering, as a Japanese who knows that the massacre happened, do you think that it is insensitive to criticise Iris Chang for saying that Japanese do not know about the massacre? I don't like her "Japanese as a nation...." comment but I respect her in other ways. Do you think that people will be interested in hearing about how the Nanking massacre has been talked about and depicted in Japan since the 1950s? It seems to me that by talking about how Japanese authors and filmmakers have represented the massacre, this makes revisionists look even more silly. I also think that if more Chinese people know that a lot of good Japanese books on the massacre exist, they can feel that the suffering of Chinese people is not being forgotten? Is this good or is it too controversial an issue, do you think? Please, anyone feel free to reply.

'Remember Iris Chang' Can you tell me where there is a serious English forum about Iris? Other than here. Thank you.

Tomoko,

Thank you for your sincere replies. I respect your way to discuss the issues we raised here and I am willing to talk more with you.

I should say that in my last post I was very emotional. These days in a Chinese forum I visit quite often, we talked a lot about Iris Chang and the whole forum is in deep sorrow for the loss of her.

Here the purpose we are having the discussion is not to raise more hatred, but to communicate, to understand each other. Only understanding and communication with sincerity can make peace with our mind -- and I believe only peace in mind can make peace in the world.

I'd like to discuss more about the confusion you mentioned. Please give me some time. I didn’t sleep well last night for writing some poems for Iris Chang and can't reply more tonight.

And please don't call me "somebody". You can call me M. I was from China and now in America.

We are all normal people who want to know the truth of the human tragedy. And we are all normal people who want to make a better world for ourselves and for future generation. And I appreciate the attitude you discuss things with us. Also you are quite impressive to read Iris's book in details and share your true opinions with us.

Hi Tomoko. I happily read your feelings about China and Japan. But you and I get away from the subject, don't we? The original subject of this interchange of ideas was "Why did Iris Chang kill herself?" I guess neither you or I really know, only Iris or her family does. But my best guess would be Iris was a compassionate lady who got really involved in the injustices of the world. You are speaking of the positive. Iris was trying to speak for the millions who died without reason. I think both have a place. Let us strive for the positive but not forget the ones who didn't deserve what they got and want only to be remembered so that others won't also die for the same reasons. For glory, riches, power and superiority.

I am very sad that Iris Chang died. I felt that she was a wonderful historian. The world will be poorer without her.

Hi Mr. Jeff Johns. I am glad that you thought that my message was interesting. However, I think that it is good for Japan if the whole world knows about Nanking. Nobody can profit from forgetting. I also hope that people realise that "Japan as a nation" does not try to forget. A Japan that remembers the Nanking massacre and is fond of peace is a stronger Japan. I think that, while there are some problems about history, China and Japan have a good relationship. I hope that it will continue to get better in the future as well. China is going to host the next summer Olympic games, right? I know that all of Asia can be happy that Japanese can go to China, not to rape but as ambassadors of peace. Japan and Korea had a great time hosting the world cut of soccer, I hope 2008 will be a great thing for both Japan and China!

Edited by author 11-17-2004 12:03 AM
And I hope the administrator will allow me to also say something I should have said in my 1st post...god rest Iris's soul and my thoughts are with her family. And in these re-edited words....I feel she may have taken her life because she had no adequate response to her feelings of man's inhumanity to mankind.

I saw Iris on a Cspan broadcast on 11/13 and was watching it innocently until I saw the crawl about her self-inflicted suicide. That naturally inspired me to read about her. I have read every message here about her and her death.Though I think I agree with Tomoko that Iris's message may have been already known by some in Japan, the world was probably not as knowledgable. Now I suspect that the Nanking rape will be more widely acknowledged. Is that good? For Japan, no. For the rest of us, especially the US citizens that approve of the killing of innocents in Iraq, it should cause a quiet reassessment of our actions.

In response to Timothy. I think that it is very likely that her husband and people very close to her know what caused her to become depressed and take her own life. I also read that she was in a hospital for a short time so it is probably ture that she talked to some specialists about her problems. I think that digging into it and spreading knowledge of the circumstances of her depression starting could probably hurt some of the people who knew her best. I think that when the time is write, those people who really knew Iris Chang well will be able to tell her story. In the meantime, I am afriad that speculating about things like murders and the cause of her depression may hurt the feeling of family members who do a web search and find this material. While I know that some people feel that there is a conspiracy, I think that it is better to keep these feelings to ourselves until there is some official evidence. If her husband reads some of these irresponsible statements about "Japs" killing her he may feel even worse.

  Well it seems that this subject of the untimley death of the inspiring writer and person Iris Chang has become a very popular topic.I have read every message on this board and I respect the thoughts that all have posted.The thing that we all have to consider is the fact that no two human beings think alike.We are all very different,that is what makes the world go around.I have to thank the person that created this site.It has become a great source for all to express their feelings and emotions.Iris Chang has without a doubt had a positive impact on many lives,mine as well.I just wish that I could have met this wonderful woman while she was still living.All one has to do is look at the photo of Iris at the top of this page.It has to be obvious to the intelligent person with reason and understanding that one can see the look of goodness and honesty in her eyes and smile.She was a very special,brave woman who wasn't afraid to express her feelings and beleifs.
  Why did Iris Chand kill herself?I just have to get back to that topic.We all should realize that it's not normal for anyone to take their own life,something has to snap inside a persons mind in order for them to do such a thing.I don't think that anyone can explain it since no person who has taken their own lives lives to tell us why they did such a thing.It in my opionion is unexplainable.It's obvious that Iris was taking on some subject matter that was very horrible,in recent times,the Bataan death march.She had the courage to take on such matters where there are very few humans on this earth who have that kind of courage.She was not out for personal gain,but for the good to benifet good hearted people.
  At this time I think that the most important subject should be comfort for her Husband,child and any remaining family or friends.
   We all have to admit that there is doubt and a lot of questions surrounding the death of Iris Chang.I know that from the death of my only brother(also very questionable with no answers after two years)that we may never know what happened.As I have said before,probably the only person who can answer these questions is Iris Chang herself.
 Again,I respect the opionions of everyone on this board.All have a right to express themselves in this beautiful free country of the U.S.A.
   I do wish that someone would start a movement to find out what really took place.I have read that Iris was here in Kentucky shortly before her death.If someone could tell me where she was doing reasearch,I will do my part to find out what happened.Keep in mind that I work long hours and have little time to work with,though in my spare time, I will do what I can.I need some help in this project,is anyone willing to help?If so,let me know.If it comes down to it,I will quit my job to find out what happened.Keep in mind that I also need to find out what happened to my brother.Iris Chang has given me the inspiration to find out what happened to my brother.I will find out about my brother on my own,I need you help to find about what happened to Iris Chang.This is not personal however it is for all that is right.I welcome any critics who may dismay what I have written.I am man enough to take it.I also welcome anyone who is willing to fight for a very good cause,I will fight with you untill death.Let us find out what happened.It's time for a gut check,can you handle it?

>Chang's book is not about hating or embarrassing Japanese people or painting them to be inherently evil.

Chang wrote that "Other experts have attributed Japanese wartime atrocities to Japanese culture itself." and she agrees with this. It is on page 54 of her book. I'm confused, does this mean that she thinks that anyone who has Japanese culture is like this. She says that Shinto was not a cause but that "Japanese culture" was.

She also says "Next, the Japanese turned their attention to the women." Does this mean all of the soldiers? Does it make people feel that all Japanese are bad?

She also says that "The Japanese as a nation are still trying to bury the victims of Nanking, not into the soil as in 1937 but into historical oblivion." on page 220. Does this mean the whole Japanese nation? What about all of the liberal writers who talk about the massacre and the fact that it was in textbooks when her books was published. I'm really confused about this.

Perhaps a new topic "Don't mess up with the Japs, or you will be killed without a clue" is more appropriate

>I wish you could learn more... To feel the pain, to feel the pain in the survivors¡¯ hearts, instead of saying ¡°we knew it. What else? It is not news.¡± We are all here learning how to prevent human beings¡¯ murders and how to protect human rights.

I think that saying that "we knew it" is an important point. You cannot reflect without knowledge. Have you read the books that I mentioned? You say that they do not mention the whole truth but they say the same things that Miss Chang does. Also, a lot of Japanese people died in atomic bombings so we can understand the pain of many innocent people dying, I think. Japan is the country that has a constitution that bars war from ever happening again. I think that this is a legacy, not only of our pain but of the pain we inflicted upon others. This came out in the Tokyo Trial in the 1940's and many people were shocked. There are right wing people in Japan but there are very few of them. Only the authors Kobayashi and Nishio are very popular. However, isn't that freedom of speech? There are so many great writers like Yoshida, Fujiwara and Eguchi who say that same things that Chang does. I agree with the left wing perspective and I think that Japan is a good country becasue that perspective can be expressed. Our governemnt should apologise for Nanking but the 1972 apology, the 1995 apology of our PM, the Emperor's apology to the Chinese people in 1992 and PM Koizumi's apology for the suffering of the Chinese people in 2001 are a good thing, I think.

I'm still a bit confused. In the treaty signed in 1972, the Chinese side said that they gladly accept the Japanese gesture. I have a copy of it right here. I'm also surprised that somebody said that I'm insensitive. I didn't say anything about victims of the massacre. I'm only very surprised that somebody thinks that the massacre is not known in Japan. I think that the Japanese government needs to do more. However, that does not mean that all of the Japanese people have covered up the massacre. A lot of our most famous history books have the story of Nanking. I think that is significant as memory and reflection are very important.

I also don't understand what somebody said about the Nanking massacre not being in our school textbooks. I wrote out a quote from the book that is used in our schools in the post earlier. I thought that quote was very fair? What do you think?

In any case, it seems that a lot of people speak about "the Japanese" not remembering while I think that the government may have a bad attitude but do all Japanese people have to be blamed for this? Iris Chang said in a quote that someone made that a small number of Japanese people stand up for the truth. I think that it is a lot of people. All of those movies and history books that I mentioned were very popular. That goes back to my original point. Why do people still say that all Japanese have forgotten?

Edited by author 11-17-2004 09:22 AM
The topic of this discussion board is "Why Did Iris Chang Kill Herself? If you want to be notified of updates subscribe with your e-mail address (see above).

If you do not want to stick to the Why? and have other ideas you want to discuss concerning Iris Chang's death, go to this new topic: Iris Chang Dead By Foul Play?

Holmes posted in #89 and other posts: "Japs murdered Iris Chang! Where is the proof? FBI needs to step in to prove it so that the truth will prevail. It took 27 years to convict Kennedy cousin Michael Skakel of the murder charge. Tobacco companies never believe smoking causes cancer, because no one has ever seen it happen, and it's probably true that no one ever will."

Holmes, the first thing you must do is subscribe with your real name and e-mail address, so you can be directly contacted by me or the Topic Administrator.

Holmes, you are correct about the 27-year old case in the murder of Martha Moxley, but Martha Moxley did not have a record of being depressed, and she didn't leave a note, before Skakel killed her.

So Holmes, here's what you could do to help yourself make more sense. Contact the FBI, lay out the facts and mitigating circumstances as you see them, and then get back to us.

I think Tomoko’s knowledge about Japanese war crimes in WWII is very impressive. When I was in college (an American liberal arts college), I got to know a Japanese exchange student from Waseda University. I remember once we talked about the Nanking massacre as well as many other things about Japan's role in WWII. He was definitely not very knowledgeable. He felt very depressed knowing something of the things Japan did during WWII. I distinctively remember one of his comments "I am shocked that ** even speaks with me!" (** was a student from the city of Nanking who also lived in the same dorm at the time).

Japan is a country that prides itself on honor, glory, and excessive elegance. In a way, it cannot face the ugliness of past history. But the first step to avoid repetition of these horrific mistakes is to acknowledge them. Without such acknowledgment, Japan will always be a country living in perpetual self deception.

Clifford in NY, please subscribe with your e-mail for updates, so the Topic Administrator and I can directly contact you and help you understand what is censorship, and what isn't censorship and who controls this message board, and who doesn't control this message board.

Edited by author 11-16-2004 06:46 PM
Hi Tomoko, I just saw your posting, here will be my respond.

To my understanding, the Japanese government has neither given a formal apology nor compensation to any of the survivor of the Nanking Massacre. It is also well known that the right-wing conservatives in Japan have continually mislead the public about the TRUTH about the Massacre; either by downplaying the tragedy and seriousness of the event or just dismissal of the whole incident altogether. It was because of these people from the right-wing, Chang's book was refrained from being published in Japan because the Japan publisher had receive death threats and was under pressure not to publish the book. (I am not sure if the book has been published now in Japan or not.) Just a few days ago, the publisher of a very popular Japanese comic book - "Young Jump" was forced to censor some parts of an issue because it depicted scenes of the Nanking Massacre after it had given into the pressure from a group of 37 local assembly members. Also, the Japanese government decided to distort and re-write history about the war and Nanking Massacre by recording inaccurate information and facts about them in today Japan’s history textbooks.

Chang's book is not about hating or embarrassing Japanese people or painting them to be inherently evil. It is about giving a voice to the few surviving victims who may otherwise never be heard. It is also about giving light to this human tragedy which often been referred to as the “forgotten holocaust” in the West. The book is also a gesture for giving back honour and justice to the deceased who had sickeningly had these two things being robbed away from them so inexplicably by the Japanese soldiers during that time.

By continuing denying, distorting, and dismissing about the Truth about the Massacre and the role it played in WW2, the Japanese government is only going to putting more and more shame on its people and increasing the strains it has with other nations. History is doomed to repeat itself if a nation refuses to acknowledge and apologize for its past mistakes. The Japanese government should recognize the truth about the massacre, apologize and compensate to the survivors and the victims’ families, and finally re-trial those soldiers who might have broken the law during the time in Nanking. This would be the only way for Japan to truly honour itself and to the victims and their families and allow Japan to truly becoming a great nation.

I have also found some of the following links which you may find useful in answering your questions:

Japanese denial and "The Rape of Nanking"
http://www.salon.com/books/log/1999/05/25/nanking/print.html

The Distortion and the Revision of History in Postwar Japanese Textbooks, 1945-1998
http://homepage3.nifty.com/ubiquitous/MA/index.htm


This site has a lot of information about the Massacre, including the Japanese government’s positions.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NM.html

To Tomoko

It is not that the fact that you and people like you already had some knowledge in the massacre but your indifference to the Nanking massacre makes others surprised. It looks like what you said is: yes, we knew our people killed a lot of innocent people in a horrible way a long time ago, SO WHAT? -- This is more like a horror.

You said "Our government also apologized to China in 1972 after Nixon went and the Chinese government accepted gladly", first I need to find if it is the truth since I never learned it. But please notice what you said, ¡°gladly¡±. How could it be? If it was your country, say, Japan, and in your hometown, say, a big city, Osaka£¬ which lost more than 300,000 innocent people(and they were killed in incredible horrible way, including your ancestors, say, your grandmother and grandfather and relatives) , can you still be ¡°glad¡± to accept an apology no matter how sincere it is£¨ and can you still think an apology to the victims is not necessary ?£© From here I can see your indifference.

Every Chinese knows that Japanese government never "issued an official apology to the victims". And what Iris Chang wished is ¡°My position is that at a minimum, the Japanese government needs to issue an official apology to the victims, pay reparations to the people whose lives were destroyed in the rampage, and, most important, educate future generations of Japanese citizens about the true facts of the massacre. ¡°. I know many Japanese. Some were my good friends. They told me they didn't know the particular history at all. They were not educated for that part. It was in the early 90's when I talked to them.

And that's scary. If people forget or deny the history, the history will repeat itself. We are trying all our best to prevent the same nightmare of history from recurring.

Glad you said your country is trying to remember the history. I wish the books and movies you mentioned could cover the whole truth. It is hard for people to see the tough truth ¨C if it is so inhuman and happened a long time ago.

I wish you could learn more... To feel the pain, to feel the pain in the survivors¡¯ hearts, instead of saying ¡°we knew it. What else? It is not news.¡± We are all here learning how to prevent human beings¡¯ murders and how to protect human rights.

We still ask for repentance for what happened from Japanese government. We need to make sure this kind of horror will never happen again. We need to remind all people in the world how the Nanking massacre was like and remember it forever. In this way it reminds the whole world all the time ¨C no more human being murder, no more atrocities.

And I wish you read this paragraph about what Iris Chang said about Japan.

¡°Are you planning to go to Japan after The Rape of Nanking comes out there? ¡°

¡°I don't know. All I do know is that I recognize that there are many sincere, wonderful and courageous people in Japan who want nothing more than to promote the truth, and these kinds of people - though in small numbers - can be found worldwide. This is a human quality that transcends ethnicity and nationality. Such people recognize that what happened in Nanking and in other regions of China is a human rights issue, and that patriotism or nationality or ethnicity has no bearing on human rights issues. They see the larger picture. I am one hundred percent behind those people in Japan, and I certainly hope to meet them one day. ¡ª Iris Chang¡±

I wish you are somebody she hoped to meet, Tomoko.

Japs murdered Iris Chang! Where is the proof? FBI needs to step in to prove it so that the truth will prevail. It took 27 years to convict Kennedy cousin Michael Skakel of the murder charge. Tobacco companies never believe smoking causes cancer, because no one has ever seen it happen, and it's probably true that no one ever will.

To Tomoko,

RE: Why do some people still say that all Japanese cover up what happened?

For some people, this is a simple easy way to explain this strange case away.

For me, it explains nothing. I believe that, if, and only if, foul play was involved (either via "induced suicide" AKA psy op or direct assassination) it was not by the obvious "usual suspects."

I must once again return to thinking more like the game GO. What would Iris have done 5, 10 or 15 years in the future? And who would fear such things the most? I stand by my comparison between Iris Chang and Hannah Arendt.

Moragod Sinkultawongrit