Heinlein is a hero to many people who endorse self-reliance and individualism. That's what the quotation is about. The ability to "stand on one's own." Specialization goes hand-in-hand with socialization. After all, if we are specialized, then other people, with other specializations, are required. If I say that I agree with Heinlein, I'm saying that I agree that the individual SHOULD (morally) have the skills needed to live in isolation. This is part of a broader agenda where it is given that people SHOULD be solitary animals and not pack animals, since societies (packs) always generate authoritarian hierarchies, which are inherently evil. I don't agree with that idea, but I can sympathize with the thinking that created it. http://www.nerdmovement.org

This quote was at the top of the page as I arrived.

'Human territory is defined least of all by physical frontiers.' - John Fowles

Heinlein's quotation is irrelevant. To specialize in being human should above all else permit these other elementary tasks to be easily accomplished. To deny yourself the presence of mind required to perform as such is a deception of the mind and no more.

In an abstract, metaphysical sense, as long as we have bodies and minds, we will need to exercise both. Heinlein may have meant something more extreme, but in a subtle sense, I think he (or Long, as you will) was right: we cannot thrive if we limit ourselves by specializing in one thing to the exclusion of others.

In other words, get a hobby.

For those that desire knowedge and understanding it is important to know about many things, the whole picture, rather than one special subject. Some of the biggest problems in science would not exist if specialisation were not so encouraged, even required.

Edited by author 09-05-2004 12:51 AM
Robert H was annoyingly satisfied with himself. Did he have any kids? He wrote so gleefully about incest and redheads.

He means to accept the travails of life, not to shun them, to learn from the mundane and apply that to the complex. Only then can you fully utilize and appreciate the complexity of life.

I do not agree with Heinlein in this quote, because man as a species has evolved from the paleolithic way of being 'Jack of all trades' into a specialized species. If we were to do as Heinlein suggests, we couldnt survive as people, or at least thats my opinion.

Heinlein demonstrates that he, at least, was able to "pitch manure".

Edited by author 09-02-2004 08:43 PM
Well, I like the quote, and have used it several times in correspondance, but it has obvious limitations in some cultures. This means it is culturaly contextural (eeek, too semantic)and of 'philosophical' relevance to most of us. I do agree with it's premise on this level. Please note this was not Heinlein speaking for himself literally - it was part of the Lazarus Long Diaries (his alter ego, perhaps?)... while it reflects Heinlein's philosophy, I doubt he could do all these things any more than 98% of the rest of the world. Still, it is a 'driver' meme. I like it a lot.

Yes, I agree.
On the condition that the person doing all of these things really loves doing them.

Well, the thing about specialization is that for it to work, you require a community of other specialized individuals that are diversified in the overall scope of specialization. What I mean is that you can't have everyone specializing in law and expect a society to work. You also need enforcers and legislators...etc. And jzger... I believe that you missed the point.

I do believe that a human being should be a species unto itself. Displaying a good grasp (though not a deep grasp realized through specialization) on the scope of things that the species as a whole can accomplish.

But let's face it. We are ALL specialized. We just differ in degree. OVERspecialization is a different matter all together.

jzger you are an idiot. the meaning of that just totally went over your head. conk head!

"Able to" does not mean "desire to" and to be honest, butchering a hog is not something I desire to undertake, and certainly not something I would take great pride in.
Pitch manure? Can I? You bet. Will I? Not bloody likely. I will just have to swallow my pride and refuse to shovel crap. And as for dying gallantly? Yeah, right. I am squealing like a six year old girl the whole way. Writhing and mewling. Puking with terror. I guess I am an insect.

This discussion reminds me of a book by A.E. VanVogt, a science fiction writer who came BEFORE Heinlein. I believe it was called "Voyage of the Space Beagle", and was essentially a "Star Trek" adventure. The main character, however, was not the captain of the ship, but a character named Grosvenor, who was the ship's only "nexialist". Everyone else on the ship was either a member of the ship's military crew or part of the (highly compartmentalized, highly specialized) scientific staff -- a fact which entered into several of the stories that made up the novel. Grosvenor, however, was a nexialist, a scientific "jack of all trades", whose specialty wasn't knowing everything about any ONE field of study, but knowing ENOUGH about just about every field of study to be able to correlate factors that weren't obvious to anyone else.

As for the quote -- it's pure Heinlein, and for that reason mostly crap; even Heinlein admitted that "ninety percent of everything is crap". Sadly, during his declining years, when he wasn't the beneficiary of good editor, it was all too true.

The inherent implication that a human being should be efficient enough to not be an unnecessary nuisance to others while not falling into disarray himself or herself is fair and reasonable.
However, the conclusion of the given quote implies to me that Heinlein is pro-generalisation, anti-specialisation; while it is possible to be pro-generalisation, pro-specialisation.
Either that, or specialisation is downplayed in the statement as a mere tertiary matter of trivial proportions.
Either way, overlooking the strength and importance of excelling in a certain field seems to be a mark of over-rationalization, wherein everything that is not entirely 'rational' and in accordance with immediate basic needs is immediately absurd and not worth doing.
Or perhaps I've taken the quote entirely out of context.

Alright, I just looked Mr. Heinlein up.
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house."
Robert A. Heinlein

I'm afraid I cannot assess a pleasant contextual possibility of this man's words. Perhaps I should read a book or two by him before coming back to this.

Funny - I have this quote hanging up at my desk!