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Topic: Is Autism a Plague?, by Michelle Dawson
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naa_adminPerson was signed in when posted  15
07-21-2006 01:05 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 07-21-2006 01:05 PM
Please post further comments on Is Autism a Plague? to the following discussion board:
http://www.quicktopic.com/27/H/vJvhV4fDnBgw7
 
Messages 14-12 deleted by topic administrator between 07-20-2006 05:39 PM and 02-19-2006 11:04 AM
Michelle Dawson  11
12-07-2005 05:18 PM ET (US)
My day for catching up on old messages. For my own strong objections to anyone making gratuitous Nazi comparisons or equations, see http://www.sentex.net/~nexus23/651-700.html

This blogger http://oracknows.blogspot.com/ now and then attacks the use of gratuitous Nazi/Hitler/holocaust comaprisons. Indeeed, he caught Mr Schafer calling those who reject the notion of an "autism epidemic", due to lack of evidence for same, "autism holocaust deniers", see http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/07/hitl...lls-thimerosal.html
Patrick  10
05-26-2005 10:08 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 05-26-2005 10:08 PM
Quoted from David N. Andrews:
''
"Einstein, Yeats and Darwin were no more autistic than Hellen
Keller was a pinball wizard. -LS."

Lenny Schafer is a Nazi, da-da-da-da-daaaa-da-daa-daa-daaaaa!''

I've read arguments from five year olds that are better than that. How does thinking that those three didn't have autism make someone a Nazi?

Sounds more like childish rubbish that attacks anybody that you disagree with.
David Andrews AppEdPsych  9
06-24-2004 05:18 AM ET (US)
Gonna put this here. It's from the FAB (Fuckwit Autism Bollocks)....

-------------------------------------------------------------

"Brief Commentary: Once again, sigh, it's time to play "pin the label
on the dorky", thanks to the idyll musings of Professor Michael Fitzgerald
(and "autism experts" of the like.) [read sarcasm] In the service of
promoting silly books that trivialize autism, the blurring of Asperger's
with the rest of autism spectrum does everyone a disservice."

I think that seeing Lenny Schafer as a reasonable human being does the rest of humanity a diservice. Doesn't mean I'm right; and what that prick said there isn't right, either :D

"Asperger's
categorically sits on top of the high-functioning end of the autism
spectrum."
      
Not necessarily. He hasn't seen the most recent video of Christopher Gillberg (by far a bigger and more knowledgable expert on autism that ANYBODY in Schafer's gang), who says things that would definitely go against this idea presented here.

"But if anything defines autism, it is NOT being high functioning
anything."

Wrong. Only a fuckwit could come up with a dumb statement like that one!

"This is not to say that Asperger Syndrome is not a serious matter,
but that it is more different than the rest of autism than it is similar."

Wrong again. The clinical evidence is clear on this, as Gillberg points out in the video.

"Perhaps the time has come to refer to Asperger's as Asperger's, and autism
as autism."

Nope. Time to rid the planet of the Schafer gang: no finer cause on the planet!

"In the name of autism awareness clarity, I'd even take it a step
further: the Asperger's label ought to be kicked off the spectrum
altogether."

Thank fuck that Schafer has no qualifications or he'd be stupid enough to do that!

"Einstein, Yeats and Darwin were no more autistic than Hellen
Keller was a pinball wizard. -LS."

Lenny Schafer is a Nazi, da-da-da-da-daaaa-da-daa-daa-daaaaa!

He is also more interested in making inflamatory statements than advancing issues in a proper and appropriate manner.

God fuck him.

Sideways!
David Andrews AppEdPsych  8
06-12-2004 02:22 AM ET (US)
Something I posted elsewhere in problems about the use of statistical reasoning..... for posterity.....

______________________________________________________________

I have a problem though with the idea that, just because a course of development has been charted and identified statistically, that course is the one true developmental path. Much in child development courses is based on this notion when it's really not a proven thing: God (such as there is one, and that's a personal thing) may have set things out in the bell curve pattern, but man invented the standard deviation, and that is something we in child development (yes, I had to do it for my psychology degree equivalent) need to remember, and we forget that at our peril.

In the course of development, as you'll know, there are many factors impinging on a child and some of these are biological, and some are non-biological; some are social and some are environmental, and some we just don't fully understand, because they are events at the interface of the child and his/her environment... which do not have set predictable outcomes.....

For this reason, I have a problem with terms like "normal development" being given to mean "that development which, if it were measurable and measured, would fall between 1 s.d. either way of the mean", when EVERYTHING that is under a "normal" distribution is - by definition - normal. Unfortunately, not a great many psychologists (in child development or elsewhere) are that familiar with the mathematical concepts and so on that underpin the statistics that they are taught to use (without too much thought as to where they come from, I'm afraid).

In any case, statistics is a very poor way to describe developmental trajectories over time: the best way is by using state-space analysis, which is what the physicists now use (many having given up on statistics as being basically useless). In such an analysis, what we see as the "normal" distribution is in fact a cross section of a set of state-space trajectories and a given point in space-time around a point-set which is known as an attractor. This attractor may or may not ever be coincided upon by the data points which describe a given trajectory through that space-time and it merely represents a hypothetical line segment which suggests a trajectory that we could think of as the mean trajectory of a hypothetically infinite data set based on an infinite number of observations of, in the case of child development, a child's development.

Because of the fact that there is a chance for any observed child's development to veer anywhere under the "normal" distribution purely by chance we have to accept that a child's development is NOT a linear function of "you do this, and he or she does this and time happens and you get this...." - and we deceive ourselves cruelly if we let ourselves think that it is. Chaos theory has more of a role to play in child development than anything we think of based only on our limited understanding (in psychology/child development/education/etc) of statistics and what they actually tell us.

Einstein once said, "God does not play dice with the universe!"

Many of his students (and their students) are now finding out the rules of this incredible poker game that God was trying to tell Einstein how to play.

No way can we predict, and no way should we really try. I am not a God-person; I don't have any belief in any God. But - if there is one - then quantum mechanics and chaos theory are the rules by which that God determines what happens. And those rules are way outside of the scope of any statistics course in psych/educ/ChiDev/etc training that any of us have here (unless we all went to Oxford and studied under Frank Close, Roger Penrose and the likes).

What I'm ultimately trying to say, I think, is that we shouldn't see previous development as a predictor of later development.

As to what ends up bringing about autistic states... the jury is actually still out on that (although they'd like us to send in more coffee! ).


Anecdote: I remember when my daughter was being assessed at Cambridge Uni by Fiona Scott BA(Hons) PhD C.Psychol (one of SBC's team) and talking about this with Simon and Sally (who came up with the device we know as the CHAT (CHecklist for Autism in Toddlers). Sally was still thinking very clearly in terms of statistical distributions, and Simon was trying to get his head round the idea of state-space analysis but he was still trapped in this idea of standard deviations.... and he could not quite grasp the idea (most physicists know more than I even care to know about this: I know just enough to know what statistics sucks )... anyway, he had the origin of the graph as z=0, and equal divisions for z along the horizontal axis. And he couldn't handle that idea that the values on the axes are not statistically derived quanitities: they're raw scores used as co-ordinates in the space whose state we're actually analysing. The statistical stuff happens when you cut across the attractor.... then you get something that will (under a nearly infinite run of observations) approximate this so-called "normal" distribution we can't (so it seems) help but fail to ignore....

I let him buy the sandwiches at that point. Sally sorted out the tea. Earlier, Fiona and I had spent a break in the ADI-R "taking the piss out of Skinner"

That was actually a good day. I stumped a Cambridge Professor!
David Andrews AppEdPsych  7
04-24-2004 11:20 PM ET (US)
I am just back from having read the CAN site.

This is from their "Facts To Consider" page:

"Autism Resources > Treating Autism
Factors to Consider
In creating a treatment approach or an intervention plan, some of the factors to consider first are:"

And you guys know because...?
 

"the behaviors the person is exhibiting
the functioning level of the individual
whether or not the person is an auditory, visual or kinesthetic learner - that is, do they learn best by seeing how something is done, hearing how something is done or by doing it themselves
the person's strengths and weaknesses (e.g. are they persistent, or do they become frustrated easily even by simple tasks)
and any medical challenges the person may be facing."

Has none of these buggers actually thought of how we are feeling?????
  
"Other factors to consider when analyzing treatment options are:"

Okay... f*ckin' hit me with it......

"the risk to the individual
the overall effect of the treatment on family life
the financial cost
the research that the supports the treatment
how the effectiveness of the treatment will be measured
and what support the family will need to be able to consistently follow through on the treatment plan."

But what about how the "treatment" actually makes us feel????

How hard can it be for people like CAN and DAN and the ABA-salespeople lot to ASK US AS AUTISTICS how we actually fucking feel about what they do to us?

And here's a thing:

Mulick the Git is a professional psychologist who works with people with developmental disabilities. He has a PhD in psychology, and the usual bachelor and master degrees required to be a professional psychologist in the US. I see no evidence that, during his attenpt to attack the character of one Michelle Dawson, he actually considered what his actions might achieve (in terms of actions having consequences) with regard to Michelle's own state(s) of mind. It seems that - because he is a professional psychologist - he can say and do precisely as he likes, regardless of whom he might cause offence to, or the state of mind his actions might put that person in.

I see nothing in his comments on Michelle Dawson (in the so-called Schafer Autism Report) that can convince me that he did not intend to cause offence to Ms Dawson and, by association really, all other vociferous autistics who happen do have the balls to turn round to him and his kind and say "F*ck off, we don't believe you!" His idea seems to be that it is perfectly okay to rescind, on a unilateral basis, the diagnoses that clinicians have made without any by-your-leave from either the clinician or his patient.

Is this the behaviour of a professional psychologist, as we can reasonably expect it to be?

Try this:

(From the Code of Ethics, APA, 2002; http://www.apa.org/ethics/code2002.html)

"3.03 Other Harassment
Psychologists *do not knowingly engage in behavior that is harassing or demeaning to persons with whom they interact in their work based on factors such as those persons' age, gender, gender identity, race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, disability, language, or socioeconomic status*."

If his behaviour in suggesting that Ms Dawson "had convinced her government that she had a disability and was living off that status" was not knowingly "to engage in behaviour that might be harassing or demeaning" to its target, then I, ladies and gentleman, am the fucking pope.

"Principle E: Respect for People's Rights and Dignity
Psychologists respect the *dignity and worth of all people, and the rights of individuals to privacy, confidentiality, and self-determination*. Psychologists are aware that special safeguards may be necessary to protect the rights and welfare of persons or communities whose vulnerabilities impair autonomous decision making. Psychologists *are aware of and respect cultural, individual, and role differences, including those based on age, gender, gender identity, race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, disability, language, and socioeconomic status and consider these factors when working with members of such groups*. Psychologists *try to eliminate the effect on their work of biases based on those factors, and they do not knowingly participate in or condone activities of others based upon such prejudices*."

On the same issue, he hasn't gone out of his way to respect this principle, has he? (For the Mulick fan club out there, the answer to this question, simple as it is, is "No, he has not!")

"3.04 Avoiding Harm
Psychologists take reasonable steps to avoid harming their clients/patients, students, supervisees, research participants, organizational clients, and others with whom they work, and to minimize harm where it is foreseeable and unavoidable."

I see no evidence of his trying to avoid any harm to Ms Dawson, either physical or mental.

"4.04 Minimizing Intrusions on Privacy
(a) Psychologists include in written and oral reports and consultations, only information germane to the purpose for which the communication is made.

(b) Psychologists discuss confidential information obtained in their work only for appropriate scientific or professional purposes and only with persons clearly concerned with such matters."

By prefessing such an opinion, Mulick has breached this simple, but very important, part of his own ethical code.

"9.03 Informed Consent in Assessments
(a) Psychologists obtain informed consent for assessments, evaluations, or diagnostic services, as described in Standard 3.10, Informed Consent, except when (1) testing is mandated by law or governmental regulations; (2) informed consent is implied because testing is conducted as a routine educational, institutional, or organizational activity (e.g., when participants voluntarily agree to assessment when applying for a job); or (3) one purpose of the testing is to evaluate decisional capacity. Informed consent includes an explanation of the nature and purpose of the assessment, fees, involvement of third parties, and limits of confidentiality and sufficient opportunity for the client/patient to ask questions and receive answers.

(b) Psychologists inform persons with questionable capacity to consent or for whom testing is mandated by law or governmental regulations about the nature and purpose of the proposed assessment services, using language that is reasonably understandable to the person being assessed.

(c) Psychologists using the services of an interpreter obtain informed consent from the client/patient to use that interpreter, ensure that confidentiality of test results and test security are maintained, and include in their recommendations, reports, and diagnostic or evaluative statements, including forensic testimony, discussion of any limitations on the data obtained. (See also Standards 2.05, Delegation of Work to Others; 4.01, Maintaining Confidentiality; 9.01, Bases for Assessments; 9.06, Interpreting Assessment Results; and 9.07, Assessment by Unqualified Persons.)"

In having professed to be able to - and actually claiming to have, or hinting at having - diagnosed someone basd on an assessment that had not been given informed consent, this one went out the window. Didn't it, Mr Mulick?

"4.06 Consultations
When consulting with colleagues, (1) psychologists do not disclose confidential information that reasonably could lead to the identification of a client/patient, research participant, or other person or organization with whom they have a confidential relationship unless they have obtained the prior consent of the person or organization or the disclosure cannot be avoided, and (2) they disclose information only to the extent necessary to achieve the purposes of the consultation. (See also Standard 4.01, Maintaining Confidentiality.)"

By having decided to proffer a diagnosis made by a competent authority (or a refutation of such a diagnosis), and then to publish it in something like the so-called Schafer Autism Report, he's gone clearly outside the bounds of this bit, hasn't he?
"4.05 Disclosures
(a) Psychologists may disclose confidential information with the appropriate consent of the organizational client, the individual client/patient, or another legally authorized person on behalf of the client/patient unless prohibited by law.

(b) Psychologists disclose confidential information without the consent of the individual only as mandated by law, or where permitted by law for a valid purpose such as to (1) provide needed professional services; (2) obtain appropriate professional consultations; (3) protect the client/patient, psychologist, or others from harm; or (4) obtain payment for services from a client/patient, in which instance disclosure is limited to the minimum that is necessary to achieve the purpose. (See also Standard 6.04e, Fees and Financial Arrangements.)"

In fact, in breaking the previous one, he also committed a breach of this one too.

In his dealings with Michelle Dawson, a diagnosed autistic, from Canada, Professor James Mulick has been entirely unethical of his treatment of her in what he has allowed of his writing on her to be published. In proffering his opinion, he effectively made any conversation he has had with Ms Dawson a consultation.

As a trainee in applied psychology, and one who will be judged by the standards ot psychologists like Professor Mulick, I cannot remain silent on my wish NOT to be seen in the same light as him. What he did was unethical and unforgivable, and should result in his removal from the board of the APA. He is Council Representative for Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities:

"Division 33 - Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities
President-Elect: Bruce L. Baker, PhD
Member-at-Large: Matthew P. Janicki, PhD
Council Representative: James A. Mulick, PhD"
(http://www.apa.org/governance/results.html)

See also: http://cor.apa.org/reps/jamesmulick.html

Given his behaviour towards Ms Dawson, I cannot help but feel very uncomfortable at his presence on the Council of Representatives.

Anyone who wishes to have him removed and censured should e-mail me at: dna138@jippii.fi

I am preparing a complaint letter against him to the ethical committee of the APA, not purely for the behaviour towards Ms Dawson, but also towards any autistic who dares to disagree with him.

David
David Andrews AppEdPsych  6
04-14-2004 12:00 PM ET (US)
Interesting thing by Robert Naseef (http://www.specialfamilies.com/response_to_time.htm):

>"As a psychologist, I help families deal with the often treacherous emotional landscape once autism strikes."

OUCH!

>"It’s been called the “autism bomb.”

Y'wha'???????

>"People often spontaneously describe to me how the diagnosis of their child’s autism was a bomb that exploded their hopes and dreams."

There is actually a cure for that particular problem: DON'T GET INTO THE TRAP OF HAVING SPECIFIC HOPES FOR KIDS.... it causes enough family arguments as it is with mainstream kids when they veer from what parents specifically want for their kids. Instead, hope that they develop to be a credit to you, and that is - regardless of any developmental states, etc. - not impossible for anyone who looks for ways to help their kids.

>"The calendar of their lives was ripped off the wall and replaced by an uncertain future as they began intensive intervention to help their child, while they struggle to find hope and to regain their footing in life."

Only because psychologists up and down the States keep plugging it. IF they were more creative things could become better for these parents!

>"It gives my life and my son’s life meaning to do the work I do. Still I can’t help but wonder, when I see a father with a small boy, what might have been."

There IS NO "might have been", even if we see things as complex probabilities where the successful choices are the events whose complex probablility coefficients didn't collapse to i (that is, the purely imaginary state).

>"I am consoled by the reality that people with autism teach the rest of us profound and spiritual lessons in acceptance and in honoring the diversity of the human condition."

We could actually do that if the Kitty Weintraubs and Lenny Schafers of this world didn't keep dissing us all the bloody while!

>"We need to understand more of the neuroscience of autism, so that effective drugs can be developed to reverse the condition regardless of the cause."

Obviously, he isn't consoled ENOUGH by our "profound and spiritual lessons", is he?!

>"Tariq was diagnosed with autism. On that day, his father became someone he never wanted to be—the parent of a child with special needs." (http://www.specialfamilies.com/graham.htm)

This was about Naseef's son and Naseef's reaction to it. Personally, I wanted to be the father of a child whom I could love. Special needs status never actually entered it!

When Jennifer Graham goes on later in the article to talk about another guy with (this time) a kid diagnosed with CP, where the dad redefines his value system to suit the kid.

>"In his new book, SPECIAL CHILDREN, CHALLENGED PARENTS (Birch Lane Press), Naseef writes "... we grieve and let go of our dream for a perfect child. Then we form new dreams as we face the challenges and reap the rewards of raising a child with a disability.""

Now that's more like it, but not as good as it could be.....

>"In the 17 years since Tariq's birth, Naseef has found "miracles" in his relationship with his son. Miracles that many other fathers never appreciate, like just being able to sit together on a park bench, silently sharing each other's presence. His love for Tariq is unconditional."

And that is what parenting is about anyway: appreciating the miracles of development that DO happen, and building on them!

Maybe I should start doing parenting classes for people... just to help them get a grip on what they really have when they have a child.

David
David N. Andrews EdPsych  5
04-10-2004 06:30 AM ET (US)
Amanda....

> If we were a plague, we could at least infect people. :-)

LoL

Nice one. I once (whatever gods exist, forgive me) took the piss out of the old Nazi idea of creating a new stock to take the world over.... I think theirs was called the Joy Division (after which the UK band took its name), and I was going to subsume this idea of mine within a thing called the Militant Asperger Party (not a real party... just a bunch of very pissed off Aspies).... the idea being that we get all the autistics in the world to f*ck and make a shitload of Aspie/Autie babies and repopulate the world with "our kind" - of course, that would have been impossible (for many good reasons, really) to pull off, but it fed a lot of good "come the revolution, mate...." responses to idiotic drivel from uninformed and unteachable non-autistics.... and gave a few autistics a good belly laugh from time to time!

Maybe all us Autie/Aspie males should go to the nearest w*nkbanks and help them stock up :P

LoL
A M Baggs  4
04-09-2004 07:20 PM ET (US)
If we were a plague, we could at least infect people. :-)
David N. Andrews EdPsych  3
04-07-2004 10:51 AM ET (US)
Plague my fucking arse!!!!! *very angry about this*

One of the reasons why clinical psychologists all seem to forget the real lessons of social psychology is that social psychology's real lessons higlight the almost innate stupidity of societies, regardless of the great variation of so-called "intelligence" within them.

Clinicians forget the big thought disorders: group-think (which helped to kill seven people in a space shuttle or two, and helped to kill thousands of people on all sides in pointless wars waged by the US on many countries since 1945); racism and the idea of white supremacy (a particularly virulent mental disease that kills... usually blacks, but sometimes the whites that support the drive for black people's equal standing in a society dominated by white people); statistical syllogism thinking... (the old "50% do such and such so that means they all do it" syndrome... wonderful waste of intelligence in the sufferers of this disorder).... I could go on, but even we autistics get the point.

Problem is, most mainstreamers don't. Hence that attack on Michelle over her essay on behaviourism.
Camille  2
02-22-2004 10:14 PM ET (US)
I dont' like the sound of autism being called a plague, but I don't think I could ever have written so well and supported my belief with such convincing documentation.

Thank you again, Michelle, for doing such a service for the autistics of the world. I am sure you are appreciated by the autistics in Canada.

"4. Relevant dictionary definitions of the noun "plague" consistently divide into two entries. One: an epidemic disease that causes high mortality; and two: any widespread affliction, calamity or evil. The only diminished or mild use of the noun "plague" is a flippant one, as in, "uninvited guests are a plague". Dr Goldbloom was clearly not being flippant. 

5. The connotations of plague are worse than its definitions. Plagues and plague-carriers are equated with death and destruction. Plagues are public emergencies in which all measures must be taken to eradicate the plague for the well-being of society. 

6. We have learned from history what happens to human beings who are called a plague. A notorious German propagandist published a book in 1939 called "The Jewish World Plague". Once a group of people, and their inherent characteristics, are determined to be a plague, we know that appalling abuses ensue. Societies have always allowed great lattitude in their treatment, or mistreatment, of those considered to be or to carry a plague. 

7. When recently the Egyptian State Press reported on a church leader's vow to launch a global campaign to root out the "plague" of homosexuality, the protests followed automatically. Earlier this year, a George W. Bush appointee was forced to resign largely due to calling AIDS "the gay plague". The danger of designating an identifiable group of people as even possible causes and carriers of a plague was seriously addressed and action was taken.  "

Camille
naa_adminPerson was signed in when posted  1
02-20-2004 01:19 AM ET (US)
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