Pete! Shhh!

He did have a point about the litzines though.

Thanks for the goodbye, King! Fight the Power! 911's a joke! Fear of a Black (turtle-necked) Planet!

(Guys, gals... please just let him go now. I know, I know, the fun part has been making fun of them, but let's move on. It's like talking to a religious zealot on a street corner, fun at first, for the kitsch value, but eventually eye-rollingly tedious. They have their world, and it's cool for them and, more importantly, it keeps them out of ours.

Zed, breathe deep and go lay on your mat by the door. Killer, sshhh. FK, here is a pudding pop. Shhh. Shhh. Sleep my little ninjas, sleeeeeep.)

Ah, such brave souls! Waiting until the person has left to speak. Reminds me of the last reading the ULA "crashed" in NYC, when we entered the home turf of literati we'd contended with on-line and in print for months-- there were 300 of them, and all five of us-- and in person they could say hardly a word. (Though drunken lit darling Tom Beller followed us outside and got in a wrestling match with the ULA's Leah Smith-- all 5 foot 2 of her, I don't know what that is in centimeters; but she's from Detroit and is tough.) I'd bet the crowd we'd tried to debate with inside had a lot to say-- after we'd left!
You'll find this hard to believe, but in my country there is actually more than one lit site, more than one forum to go on, and so when I do go on-line, I hop around to those places where I can be most effective. Makes sense, doesn't it? When the host here told me he wasn't interested in the ULA, that he was yawning, and that this was merely a little corner not to be disturbed, I took him at his word. If I had seen a couple posts added, I wouldn't have dropped back in. But, twenty? I guess we're not quite as boring as he said.
I don't know if I'm on my high horse-- maybe I am-- but there seem to be high horses all around on this forum. The condescension you show would be amazing, if I wasn't already used to it from others. You make a lot of assumptions without knowing anything about me and the ULA.
A little essay of mine up on our fan site wins someone's approval. Very generous of you. I'll have to print out your remarks to show everyone. The fact though, is, that the essay is up there only because it's short. I've written much better essays and stories than that. As I've implied, I have a track record of sorts as a writer. My newsletter in the 90's was subscribed to by many of the best young writers in the U.S., including by Mr. Franzen (maybe someone was taking ideas from someone). Plimpton and Company also were paying subscribers-- that he knew me was how I got him to debate. And as I've said, I was published in several prestigious literary journals. And yet, I've never received a nibble from a conglomerate. That's not a lie. But I'm not alone in that situation. A better writer than I am, Fred Woodworth of Tucson, has never been touched. A possible reason is that his novel, Dream World, tells the truth about life in America today, and the monopolies don't want to hear this, unless it comes in a watered-down version from someone like Jonathan Franzen.
I'm also lectured about protest from you folks, and given the example of the WTO. Which is funny, because several ULAers were involved in the WTO protests. One, Michael Grover, was beaten and jailed. As for myself, I'm from Detroit, as are other ULA founders, and to survive there one needs to be in constant protest against the world. (These, of course, are things I've written about.) It's not really a polite city. I've been to Canada many times, and as Canadians who live in Windsor know, the two cities are completely different worlds.
I'm not here to give you my resume, but I was a union steward in the past on a job; I've been involved in walkouts and strikes; I've seen strikers heads busted. I know all about protest. I realized, at some point, that most dissent in my country is stifled (even Ralph Nader wasn't allowed into the Presidential debates-- as a spectator!) We in the ULA naively thought we'd influence our society with a Trojan Horse approach, through literature.
Which of you suggested that ULAers form a group and we all publish ourselves? Great suggestion-- except that's exactly what we're doing. Merely printing one's own writings, however, isn't enough. One needs to get the word out. That's what the ULA has been trying to do-- and which is why I sometimes waste my time on forums such as this one.
Lastly, I meant what I said when I used the word "independence" instead of "sovereignity." There are a lot of countries in this world who have their sovereignity, yet are controlled by the United States. Most of them, I'd say. The American Empire is a little more subtle than empires of the past. It doesn't need to take formal political control of a nation, when it can own its banks, its businesses, and its media,; can control the circulation of goods and services and control even the information that goes into individuals' heads. The fanatics fighting the U.S. in the Mideast know this-- they don't want our fast food chains and our mindless TV shows. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know; I'm aware of that.
So long. It's been real.

"I rilly hate the phony democracy. The people in St. Jude pretend they're all alike. It's all very nice. Nice, nice, nice. But the people are not all alike. Not at all. There are class differences, there are race differences, there are enormous and decisive economic differences, and yet nobody's honest in this case. Everybody pretends! Have you noticed this?"
                           -- The Corrections, by Jonathan Franzen

... now I see where King and the ULA boys are getting their view of America and the world. From those bastard, emotionally vacant, out of touch millionaire novelists.

ZING!

Oh crap, there's nothing worse than really zinging someone and then watching as they don't even realize they've been zinged.

King, if you haven't completely taken your hockey net and gone home, it's time to open your eyes a little bit from that permanent scowl you've got going (I've seen your picture on the website, pretty boy) and recognize that you are among friends.

Do I think all anti-establishment protest is high school behaviour? No, the folks who get beaten down and shot with rubber bullets at WTO meetings are not silly. The folks in Central American prisons and mass graves are not silly. You, on the other hand, are silly. You know you're silly -- at least you should -- so why not drop the pose and hang out awhile?

Do you really think you need to lecture us about the need for protest in the world today, and about the Harvard-industrial-complex that is the American writing world? We're a bunch of Canadian poets fer Christ's sake. We have to walk 200 kilometers (that's like a thousand miles, man) in snowshoes before we can catch a bus to take us to the plane that will fly us to New York , in order to have the door shut in our faces at FSG.

And thanks for the heads up on Canada's "independence," which we call "sovereignty." I for one have been completely out to lunch the last few years. You say there's been a war recently?

The way off the high horse is down, King, down.

I've read some of your stuff. That story about working on the Windsor/Detroit bridge is really good, but I don't think so because of the political view it reflects (which I share). I like it because it is effective writing. You're telling me if you sat on your ass a bit more, wrote a collection like that and fished it around Manhattan you wouldn't get a single bite? That's a lie you're telling yourself brother. But if you do have trouble landing a contract in New York, try Toronto, or do what disaffected Canadian writers do -- get a bunch of folks together, start a press and get the word out that way.

Your behaviour (Canadian spelling) on this site makes me even more suspicious than I already was about your claim to have kicked Plimpton's ass. I'd love to see a transcript of the evening. My guess is you guys were loud and obnoxious, interrupted at every opportunity and stomped out of the place loudly declaring victory while the audience and your "opponents" simply shook their heads, ordered another martini and forgot you even existed.

In Canada, we look for protest to have some real impact, and are embarassed by it when it so obviously serves merely to advertise its participants. We also stick around to finish the debate, even once we start losing.

My world is turned upside down. And to think I almost had evilninja killed. What a disservice to the world of poetry that would have been....

I must regroup.

John MacKenzie? evilninja? You slay me.

Edited by author 12-05-2003 04:36 AM
And the performance-enhancing substances, John, don't forget them! It's all about the Andro, man :) Like they say in the Dominican Republic: ya can't walk off the island, eh.

I'd have more sympathy for the platform if "bourgeois" weren't such a goddam cliché. It's hard to say it without sounding like some super-earnest turtleneck-wearing Marxist, especially if you drop the "r", as so many Yankees doodle.

King, I actually sympathize with some of your platform but I ain't much for fanaticism in groups. Personally, I care about as much for how much established writers make as I do about how much baseball players such as Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez make. What I care about is the quality of their production. If I want into the big leagues, I'm gonna have to hit my way in. At my desk, or at the plate I've got to put in the time and work it takes.

A flash mob is more like it.

A cabal? :)

Um, what the hell are we?

I think we can safely draw the conclusion "Literary clubs are bad be they wealthy or poor" from all this, yes?

More often than not, "DIY" looks an awful like "No one else will publish my stuff". There's a fine line between raging against the machine and just so much jealous feet stamping by pretenders to the throne with more thwarted-ambitions than passable talent.

But Wenclas is right about McSweeney's and the staggering genius at its helm. So much pompous, self-aggrandizing pretence.

I guess I don't like anything.