Welcome to the discussion board for "Edgeliving." Leave your thoughts, your questions...

Join us on this journey.

In leather,
Master Jim and slave marsha

Master Jim and slave marsha, thank you so much for opening Y/your blog to those who wish to post.

I have to agree, it's all about the socks. And, I have to agree with Master Jim that I don't like rules. And, slave marha, I too believe in Magic. With the utmost love and respect, Ryan

Ryan...

Love you, always.

marsha

Hello Master Jim and slave marsha,

I was so happy when I found your blog. This is the plump bellydancer from Denver :) My Master and I enjoyed The Journey 2003 very much. It was an emotional weekend for me, but we were amazed at how much our life and philosophies mirrored yours. It has been wonderful to be able to have a window into your lives as Master and slave. I would like to ask a question if that is all right: Do you have any sort of reading list that would be beyond the basics in most bdsm books?

Thank you both,
Karen

Edited by author 09-11-2003 11:41 PM
Karen,

Thanks so much for reading and writing -- and i'm glad The Journey was meaningful for you and your Master.

As to your question... if you're talking about books on M/s, well... i don't have too many to recommend. i tend to find help in books that are not strictly BDSM, for example books written by men and women in religious service. "The Calling" by Catherine Whitney is one. There's also a book by Kathleen Norris called "The Cloister Walk" that i found really inspirational. And i was helped by The Rule of St. Benedict and the writings of a number of Buddhist monks as well.

In the area of more traditional SM fare, i think the Miss Abernathy books ("Miss Abernathy's Concise Guide to Slave Training" and "Training With Miss Abernathy") are good for practical issues in service. i also highly recommend a short story called "The Seduction and Training of a Leatherman" by Thom Magister which is in an analogy called "Leatherfolk: Radical Sex, People, Power and Practice" edited by Mark Thompson.

Master Jim is actually taking some steps in His life to free up time for us to write the book He's dreamed of writing... so we'll see if that happens.

i hope this answers your question -- but if not, feel free to post a follow up!

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

Master Jim and slave marsha

As always inspirational. Thank you.

Makes one want a thoroughbred of their own <gentle smile>
-- and a very long track <eyes twinkling>

In Leather with deep respect,

Sir T'Hayla

Finding this forum added to the edgeliving website was a very pleasant surprise. Thank you Master Jim and slave marsha for providing this space to ask questions and share where it is more likely I'll find similar minds. The blogspot reading has proved to be a touchstone and a place of grounding for me.

Thank you for the book recommendations slave marsha. One book my slave enarian has enjoyed reading is, "How Can I Help?" Stories and Reflections On Service by Ram Dass and Paul Gorman.

Not having participated on a discussion board before, this will be a new venture for me.

In leather,
Robi

Edited by author 09-14-2003 12:03 PM
Master Jim, slave marsha, and board,

Thank you slave marsha for posting those titles. Thank you Robi as well for jumping in with the title your slave has enjoyed. I have found most bdsm books to merely scratch the surface of what a Master/slave relationship could be. I am glad for other suggestions as there are only so many ways to flog, pinch, prod, etc. a person, but infinite emotional depths and ways to serve.

Master Jim, I would definitely buy a book written by you. I would be very surprised if Mystic Rose Books, Greenery Press, or Daedalus Publishing weren't all standing in line to publish it!

Bright blessings on a chilly morning,
Karen

Karen,

Thank you for your very kind words. While I think there is definitely an interest in Mastery and slavery, I am not sure that the book publishers are actually lined up at my door. As slave marsha said, I do plan to write a book, along with her, and I would hope that I could find someone willing to publish it.

In leather,
Master Jim

Great new book title posted by Robi -- thank you for that, Sir. i'll definitely look for it.

As Master Jim and His slave marha know, my life as a leatherman is one of Spirit. Just as slave marha has shared that her readings of those in religious orders and service are inspirational for her life in Service, so the Eastern traditions of spirituality are for me. Here are some of my thoughts based on an article I've read:

The Spirit of Western Tantra by suzie, is an excellent narrative. Here is a portion of her article accompanied with my thoughts:

"The role of the guru in classical Tantra was one of guide and pusher of edges. The guru knew you and your limitations in your life. He or She set a path for the student that would lead them ultimately to stretch and grow in ways the individual might not attempt on their own."

How is this different from the role of the Master with his/her slave? What an incredible responsibility this places on the guru and the Master. This role is not about who the Master is, but how the Master can mold the slave into the slave’s greatest and ultimate potential. It is through the perfection of the slave that the Master is edified. Just as the guru requires obedience from the petitioning devotee, so does the Master expect unconditional obedience from the slave. It is through the devotee’s obedience to the guru that the promise of enlightenment becomes reality; and, so it is between the Master and slave.

When confronted with a fear, we must understand what it truly is. If it is true fear, then we must step through the fear and consequently soar. If the fear is our Divine Intuition, they we must pay attention and be obedient to what the Divine is telling us. When I firewalk, I must heed my inner voice of intuition. If I am fearful of the walk, I must identify the fear by stepping through it to accomplish the impossible, walking unharmed on 1750 degree Fahrenheit coals. I must also differentiate the difference between fear and intuitive knowing of when not to walk. If my Divine Self instructs me not to walk and I ignore it and walk, I will most definitely be burned. During a scene when Master Jim was working with me, I was terrified of his intent of piercing my chest and nipples. I had just received 35 temporary piercings in my scrotum and dick, yet I was terrified of Master Jim’s next intent. Fortunately, I was able to surrender to Master Jim’s will and it was through the work He performed on me that we were both able to experience the surrendering to each other, what I have come to call Mutual Flight.

Pleasant Journey, Namaste, Ryan

Ryan and all,

Thank you for posting a clipping of the article, and your comments especially this one, "It is through the perfection of the slave that the Master is edified." I found the article you quoted to get a fuller context of what you were speaking. I enjoyed it very much and found it very useful in identifying a few things further. Although my knowledge of Eastern philosophies is not extensive yet, my studies on energy-chakra work and healing involves many aspects of Eastern tradition and philosophy. My daily rituals revolve around Native spiritual practices, as well as various meditations. Discussing how spiritual practices and philosophies translate to, while working within, Master/slave concepts interests me greatly.

Ryan, how might you articulate a Master surrendering for this Mutual Flight?

Here is a further clip from the article: "To risk the vulnerability of "doing it wrong," not looking good, being stuck emotionally, facing your own shadows, and other life challenges, is to move closer to your own soul and to the power that resides in self-realization."

As a young Master, my fear is most often about "doing it wrong" which speaks to me of my ego. Facing this fear summons my faith on a grander scale than I might ask of myself were I not engaging in a Master/slave dynamic. It also inspires me to study and continue to do the work that my Divine Self, (Spirit/Creator) has set for me. There are times still that I balk, and tell myself I "don't have to do this". However, I am compelled forward on this journey and do my utmost to embrace what comes with a surrendering, if not yet the grace, I wish to acquire. In my view, my slave is my spiritual helper, as well as providing service in other areas.

I leave with you a poem from Tao Te Ching:

"Nothing in all heaven is so soft and weak as water.
And yet, for conquering the hard and the strong,
nothing succeeds like water.

And nothing can change it:
weak overcoming strong,
soft overcoming hard.
Everything throughout all beneath heaven knows this,
and yet nothing puts it into practice.

That's why the sage said:
Whoever assumes a nation's disgrace
is called the sacred leader of a country,
and whoever assumes a nation's misfortune
is called the emperor of all beneath heaven.

Words of clarity sound confused."

Namaste’
Robi

Greetings!

Master Jim and slave marsha, what a delight to find this message board. Your writings have been inspirational to Master Robi and myself, and usually have been very timely! *grin* I have been amazed that the topics that the two of you have written about so closely mirror topics of discussion that Sir and I have just been going though. Thank you both for continuing to expand our small circle of M/s interactions.

I look forward to the discussions and thoughts posted here.

What an excellent addition to an already excellent read.

I've yet to hear a workshop from you folks yet, not for lack of being at the same conferences but lack of scheduling skills. I am very much looking forward to hearing the Journey at some point in the hopeful near future..

Your blog is required reading for my boy. While we aren't on an M/s journey, the path of a Daddy and a boy has a number of similarities--and it is truly wonderful to see it put into words much better than I or the boy could do.

Best,
DaddySir

Robi, et. al. -- First of all, Robi, thank you for your response to my previous post. Secondly, with all due respect & in my opinion, you have a rather extensive grasp of Eastern Spirituality.

Let me attempt to answer your question of me: "Ryan, how might you articulate a Master surrendering for this Mutual Flight?" I believe it is only through the release of the ego, the little self, that one achieves the realization of the Self. A Master must be secure enough in who He/She is to step away from the Ego, making it possible to join His/Her slave in flight. It is the melding of the energies or the joining of the chakras of the Master and the slave that allows for Mutual Flight.

I do quite a bit of Energy work both in and out of an SM scene. When working with someone who is not a part of our SM way of life, I can achieve the same results by the sharing of the chakra energies. This is only more intensified when I'm working with someone in a SM way, or when someone like Master Jim is working with me. In these situations, we have the benefit of the SM work and the chakra energy at the same time.

One way I explained it to someone with whom I had worked was this: I, as the giver of the sensation, am the pilot. The sensation being given and received, is the fuel for the flight. And, the boy is the vehicle for the flight. Once the boy is flying, I am able to put the flight on auto-pilot, and embrace the wonder of flight. However, as a responsible pilot, a tiny part of me has to remain alert for any potential danger to protect those of us flying in case of an emergency. . . . or, arrange to have someone else monitor the scene. In the near future, I will be working with someone where I will arrange for a third person to monitor our work. It will be a very intense scene, both from the stand point of the sensation being given and the Mutual Flight. Once he is flying, I intend to meld our energies so completely that I will be unable to monitor the autopilot. We intend to orbit Mars and have someone else monitor our flight. I'll let you know the results. We both expect them to be life changing.

Robi, I look forward to your response and hope in someway I have answered your question.

slave marsha, my apologies. I can't believe I misspelled your name in my last post!!!

Namaste, Ryan

Greetings Master Jim and marsha
Wow this is cool!
Just checking in on the site for a bit of inspiration today that i thought i needed. i saw the "just be the boy" entry by Master Jim and marsha's poem and it lifted my spirits. Just trust that being yourself will wind you up where you are meant to be? i have had a couple struggles going on with my journey but i've had worse and it's great to be able to tap into Y/you all when i need a boost!
Thanks very much for this.
With respect,
alex

alex! It's great to see you here!

You're a good boy, you know that?

(Damn cute, too. *smile*)

Much love,
marsha

"alex! It's great to see you here!

You're a good boy, you know that?

(Damn cute, too. *smile*)

Much love,
marsha"

boy alex, DITTO to slave marsha's response. you are a delight in all of our lives!! Ryan

alex...:::evil grin::: looking forward to seeing you at dungeon...sure was good to have you visit cali again....

peace,
gwen

Yay!
Thanks E/verybody! i'm looking forward to participating in this forum with some of my favourite mentors, Master Jim, Ryan, Sir, marsha among others! Edgeliving....ummm, it's not always an easy row to hoe but it is definitely worthwhile, especially when there are people to share the experience!
gwen...hey there! Can't wait either! i am a bit worried though....*grin*
alex

Master Jim and marsha, how excellent to interact with you both again.

While I am no longer living the Life, I still have an intense interest in it.

One of the books I thoroughly enjoyed, although it is not specifically about Mastery or slavery, was "Memoirs of a Geisha". I particularly liked the treatment of service and the description of the role of Older Sister in that world. I am unable to read this book without thinking of edgeliving.

Regards,
Michael

Dear Michael,

And i'm enjoying your diary as well -- and the chance to catch up with what's going on with you.

i agree with you completely about "Memoirs of a Geisha." There was much in there that spoke to me.

Warmly,
marsha

Thank you, miss marsha, for the kind welcome and for reading my diary. I have omitted the rest of your title for brevity's sake. *laughing*

I knew I'd miss M/s if I came here and started reading -- and I have. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anyone locally I trusted enough to use me well.

In an earlier post, Master Jim discusses his dislike of rules, and I must say I agree wholeheartedly with this. There are two main reasons. One was something I read years ago, which, paraphrased, said, "Once you have given a man an order about something, you must always give him an order about that thing."

In other words, once you've said something like "ask permission before you use the cellphone", you must always answer that question. What a lot of work!

Which leads me to the second reason I don't like rules: they're too much work to enforce.

Years ago, a former Leather sister of mine was discussing how she wished our Owner would accept her as a slave, and proceeded to outline every area of her life in which she would be taking direction: what to wear, what to eat, when to exercise, when to go to work, etc. All I could think of was, "Somebody should warn Ma'am before she gets stuck with this." I thought that, in having this person as a slave, that Ma'am would have to put out far more work to direct her slave's life than she would benefit in receiving service.

That said, I also agree with slave marsha that rules are often easier because you have a nice pass/fail system for whether you are taking right action. If you always obey the rules, you know you're doing it right without ever having to think about it much.

The road Master Jim requires of slave marsha is infinitely harder and much more rewarding. Learning a few principles and having to think about how to apply them in every situation is much harder than a strict "if a, then b" equation.

It's also infinitely more rewarding to the slave when they get it right. You've had to use judgment to do the right thing. You've had to understand your Owner's needs well enough to know how to best serve in that moment.

As someone who had the opportunity to live as a slave for a while, I guess I preferred living by principles than rules.

Master Jim and slave marsha,
Thank you both so much for this website. I was just given this link by a friend. They say when the student is ready the teacher will arrive. I needed to read so many of the things in the writings of both of you.
As a boi fond of *rules* I had to read the rules vs principles concepts a few times. Makes a lot more sense to live this life that way. Harder for me but more logical.
Just in time for a good test at Dungeon.
Thank you both again.
Vic Lady Sharrin's boi

Dear Michael,

*laughing* Lord have mercy on the people who read your site... they now think i'm some sort of egomaniac! (*Please* -- no comments on that!)

i so agree with your comments on your discussion with your former Leather sister. i thought the same way, once... but what an incredible burden that would be on Master Jim! And what lost opportunities for me to learn about myself and to grow... even if those opportunities are very painful, sometimes.

And Boi Vic,

What a pleasure to see you here! Thanks for your kind words. Good luck at Dungeon... i wish i could be there to watch you succeed! (Because i know you will.)

Warmly,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

slave marsha says:

"*laughing* Lord have mercy on the people who read your site... they now think i'm some sort of egomaniac! (*Please* -- no comments on that!)"

Or they could think of it as an object lesson that you're not going to be particularly submissive or obedient to anyone except Master Jim!!!

Heh.

Ryan and all,

Ryan... I am belated in extending my thank you for sharing your thoughts back in September. You had certainly answered my question, most eloquently too. Joining chakras is a powerful experience in and of itself, combined with SM, very powerful mojo. It is marvelous to hear others who do something I had kind of stumbled into. This my cue to keep talking and sharing and the likeminded folk will meet. I am still new to these types of, what you call "flights", but it feels quite miraculous.

"A Master must be secure enough in who He/She is to step away from the Ego, making it possible to join His/Her slave in flight. It is the melding of the energies or the joining of the chakras of the Master and the slave that allows for Mutual Flight."

Oh yes. Beautiful! I hadn't yet recognized myself to be stepping away from my Ego, but it makes sense that that is what would be necessary.

"I do quite a bit of Energy work both in and out of an SM scene. When working with someone who is not a part of our SM way of life, I can achieve the same results by the sharing of the chakra energies."

This inquiry isn't exactly on Master/slave topic, however I'd like to inquire what energy work you do, and why you would be sharing chakra energies? Is your purpose for connection, and/or healing, or something else?
 
"This is only more intensified when I'm working with someone in a SM way, or when someone like Master Jim is working with me. In these situations, we have the benefit of the SM work and the chakra energy at the same time."

Yes. *smiling* I want to say, "Sing to me." In that place I feel vibrations inside like music. I also see color when this energy work is combined with SM.

I would very much enjoy hearing of your experience the intense scene you had planned, if this has taken place since your posting?

I've been working through some very strong feelings of late. I wonder if there are other Masters who feel their slaves get very big, very powerful, that it overwhelms them at times. I don't feel this is a bad thing at all, it just feels big. I believe this has been due to some personal work I've been doing, "work" we have been doing together, and watching my slave not only meet a challenge I'd laid out for her recently, but her attention/devotion surpassed what I had anticipated. The resounding effects have blossomed larger than I had anticipated in a very good way.

I do wonder what other Masters do for themselves if and when this happens? Thoughts appreciated.

Namaste,
Robi

Greetings all.
Back from the land of Dungeon. I had a great time, due in part to the adjustment of my mindset thanks to this site. I think I would have been even more challenged had I not shifted my center to a more balanced, flowing and adjustable place. It was great fun, serving my Lady there. All in all I think it was a very positive, growth inducing experience. One I will not soon forget.
Hope everyone else who went had as good a time as I did.
Vic
Lady Sharrin's boi
ps. Wish you could have been there too marsha. That would have been great, to see you again.

"At the end of the day, whatever happens to me as I walk this Master/slave path, I will know this: at least I dared to enter the arena."

Master Jim Sir: Without daring to enter the arena, there can be no success. And with each entry into the arena comes greater success. However, the wise person quickly learns whether the arena is his/her path for enlightenment. With the deepest of gratitude and respect, Ryan

Thanks Master Jim for that message,
 Success and ...failure or loss (if that's the right word for it) are flip sides of the same coin. And we can earn our growth through either depending on how we look at it. Nothing ventured nothing gained. i guess i learn more through struggles whether it results in success or loss.
With respect,
alex

Robi: My apology for taking so long to reply to you: ""I do quite a bit of Energy work both in and out of an SM scene. When working with someone who is not a part of our SM way of life, I can achieve the same results by the sharing of the chakra energies."

This inquiry isn't exactly on Master/slave topic, however I'd like to inquire what energy work you do, and why you would be sharing chakra energies? Is your purpose for connection, and/or healing, or something else?"

I work with kundalini chakra energy for healing and balance. It is one of the aspects of my work with my student who come to me for spiritual guidance. I first attempt to balance their own energy; and, when unable to do so, I transfer some of my energy to them.

"I would very much enjoy hearing of your experience the intense scene you had planned, if this has taken place since your posting?"

Unfortunately, we have not yet had the opportunity. Hopefully, we will be able to remedy that soon; then I will post what will be appropriate to share.

Robi, I hope that I have in some way answered your questions. Ryan

Ryan: I agree that one may learn that after entering the arena that their path for enlightenment lies within; however, if one enters the M/s arena and eventually decides it is not their path, then they have learned and hopefully will gather strength to enter another arena.

In leather,

Master Jim

alex:

Yes, loss is a better word than failure. And I agree that we may learn more through our losses than our successes. In fact, I think if we have too many success on this path and begin to get overconfident, the leather gods throw a few problems our way just to keep us humble.

In leather,

Master Jim

Ryan... Yes, you did answer my question. Thank you for taking the time to explain your work. It's wonderful! My not understanding at the time was due to a slight variation in terminology. I'm more familiar with the term 'channeling' which can be from within oneself or channelling other healing forces, ie: Reiki, from outside ourselves.

Other than the Reiki healing I recently started practicing, the energy and chakra work with my slave, is primarily for connecting on deeper and more intense levels which has brought about some very interesting experiences. Experiences which may or may not include SM activity. This preliminary connecting makes our leaping off point further along, and can make our SM work much more productive depending on the direction I wish to take.

"Unfortunately, we have not yet had the opportunity.
Hopefully, we will be able to remedy that soon; then I will post what will be appropriate to share."

That would be wonderful, thank you. There is much yet for me to learn and I especially enjoy hearing of techniques and experiences in keeping with my direction and spiritual path.

Thank you again Ryan.

******************************************************
Do slaves get bigger than their Masters?

Pondering to make sense of my feelings and thoughts early October, this insight came to me at 4am one morning when I had awoke out of what seemed a deep sleep.

A vision came up before my eyes of my slave, there in the path ahead of me. As I studied the vision, I noticed her, her back looming large in front of me filling the pathway. I seemed considerably smaller in comparison. I wondered why she was there, and how she had come to be there out in front of me. I asked myself, “How can this be, a Master following? Was this right?” She was busy working to clear and enlarge the pathway with machete in hand. There I remained feeling small and behind until....

As this vision remained in my sights, and thoughts came to me I realized it was my doing, at my instruction that had sent my slave out ahead of me.(What I hadn't initially realized is that the challenge I had set for her was the impetus for her to move ahead of me.) She had followed my instruction, and had set herself to the task with all due attention and devotion. With that first impetus she continued to work to clear the path, until further direction came from me.

Will I, as Master, always be in front or in the lead? I can only surmise from my recent experience that the answer is no. It seems to me that sometimes I will send my slave ahead of me, or be directing from behind, knowing that she has either been on this path and knows the way, or I am trusting her to find the way through. Perhaps it may be that the path needs clearing and she has the skill to do so.

.... until the path broadened again for me step up beside her, and then take my place.

To answer my own question, "Do slaves get bigger than their Masters?, what makes sense to me is that while ahead of me and working, symbolically speaking my slave will be perceived bigger and loom large in the path. Sometimes it may happen that with the attention and devotion my slave attends to her service, her power, that this may well overwhelm me in a wonderful, awe-inspiring kind of way.

I know that for me, my Master/slave dynamic inspires me to work very hard with my spiritual growth, and vice versa. The two seem to work as an inspirational catalyst for my personal work, and my slave is my spiritual helper in that.

Namaste,
Robi

Dear Master Jim and slave marsha,

Greetings, and thank you for allowing me to be a part of your community. We always look forward to you when you are in our neck of the woods, or at big events such as "The Journey."

Just wanted to make a comment here about slaves getting "bigger" than the Master. Because I own her and guide her, when she succeeds it is my success as well, and because I am her owner, when I succeed she succeeds as well. I have always liked the ying-yang symbol that my local bdsm group APEX uses, as it shows how slave and Master compliment and complete each other. Do not compete with each other. It is a partnership- not an equal one, but one does need the other. Share in each others triumphs- it will lead to joy, where as competion in a relationship will lead to bitterness. Just one man's opinion.
Hope to see you at Southwest Leather in December.

Warmly,
MasterSteel (and alaina)

Robi,

Wow... thank you for your wonderful post on your slave "getting bigger." Too many in our community simply do not understand the tremendous power that comes with being a slave and that this power in no way diminishes an Owner.

Master Steele (and alaina),

Master Jim and i will most definitely see you at Southwest Leather in December. i am the keynote speaker and head judge for the contest, and Master Jim and i are presenting.

Warm regards,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

Hello,

I have a question. I have recently been part of a debate regarding "Old Guard" training houses both in Europe and in the United States. I am hearing about secret European Houses with 1300 years of lineage and Formal Training Houses here in the States that do not let slaves and submissives ever leave.

Of course, on the internet you can find nearly anything you want to on any topic. So far, I have only found the article by Tammad supporting these views and many other sites discounting them.

What is one to believe?

I hope everyone is well,
Karen
odalisque2690@yahoo.com

Dear Karen,

i'd be glad to tell you about ancient "Old Guard" training houses -- but then i'd have to kill you.

*laughing*

Seriously, take all of that "ancient house of D/s" stuff with a BIG grain of salt. Let's start with the legend of the ancient "Old Guard" houses in the U.S.

What is commonly thought of as the "Old Guard" in the U.S. started shortly after WWII. The men (and they were almost all men) were gay and they had been soldiers, and they organized a leather community around the principles of honor, discipline and structure that they enjoyed in the military. Except that they were, in many cases, also very much individualists, so they tended to organize in small groups. So there is no "Old Guard Book of Protocol" that applied to everyone. Masters trained their slave(s)and sometimes organized in leather families, Tops scened with bottoms. But secret "training houses?" No one who i know who was a part of that era knows of anything like that.

As for the European houses... well, i have no doubt that people have been living in M/s and D/s relationships for many years. However, here's the test i apply -- i ask the people talking about this stuff if they can name any of the people in the "house." Who did they serve and when? Can those people be contacted? The fact is, nearly all of us in the community who really do serve as slaves are happy to identify our owners and those who may have trained or influenced them -- we may not be able to do it by full legal name, but we can give enough identifying information that the references could be confirmed. If you get answers like "It's a secret" or "They're all dead" -- well, again, i'd take it with a big grain of salt.

Bottom line is this. i've been in the leather/SM community for almost 10 years and i've NEVER met anyone who could support this kind of claim. i've talked to people who have been in the community much longer than i have -- people like Laura Antoniou and Guy Baldwin -- and they don't know of any of these "secret European Houses," either.

Thanks for posting and i hope this helps.

In service,
marsha
Proud to say i am slave to Master Jim

Thank you very much, slave marsha, for replying to my post. Anything "secret" is usually a trigger or at least a red flag for me, and I am grateful for your comments.

And, yes, I too am very proud of my Master Jeremy and proud to associate myself with our lifestyle friends.

Thanks again,
Karen

Master Jim, thanks for "lighting that cigar", Sir. i laughed when i read the poem. Even with the occasional doom and gloom, i would rather be on this path than not. And the fun, excitement and laughter are worth it.
alex

"Alert the Media! Master Jim Has a Sense of Humor…": And indeed He does!! VERY well written slave marsha. Numbers 1 & 2 remind me of a conversation we recently had about putting on and taking off the M/s role, or having a day off from being in Service. LOL And, Master Jim Sir, Bill and I will ride rollercoasters with You any time You wish!!
With the greatest of respect, Ryan

I have always found your lifes a great source of inspiration. And it is still what I aspire to. in time of course. I realize I need healing time but, its only a rest stop on my path. the path is still there and will be when im ready to start walking again. Thank You for opening your lives to others here and in the community .

Do slaves have to be submissive? Is the concept of slavery and submission mutually inclusive, exclusive, or somewhere in between. I've recently been engaged in discussion regarding this and it leads me to something Master Jim said in July during a public forum, that He had a man in Service to Him who was not submissive. So do slaves surrender and unconditionally trust; do they consent to permanently give up consent?

Don't ask me why, but I was just getting a massage and the above thoughts kept going through my mind. So, I'm throwing it out there to see what everyone thinks. Thanks for indulging me, Ryan

just my two cents. slaves are usually submissive, not weak but accomidating, Antisapatory humble, deferential. but also they do think for themselves and the Master should use that quality. in giving an order, if it is something you know the slave is good at then it would be fine to have them use thier own judgment to get the job done. now not every submissive is a slave. they are the above but go the step further to surrender, to the right person that is. Master Jim said it well "complete surrender means complete responcibility" does someone in service need to be submissive? hmm, no I guess not. some get the pleasure of doing service so they can be told they did a good job and also know they did a good job. When I am ready again, I do NOT want a piece of fluff, I want someone with brains, strong, intelligent, and full of self worth. THAT makes the submission or slavery that much more special.
anyway, just my thoughts

Dear Friends,

Well, I think that submitting and being a submissive are two different matters entirely. My working definition of a submissive is a doormat type person, some who wants another to run thier life because of their own weakness, OR alternative is a person who during S/M play, for a short period (usually during a scene) allows another, within limits, to perform S/M acts on them. A slave is most often a person with a very strong personality who has chosen to serve and yield to the will of another. The goal of this service is to remove the limits, and is a service born of a love and need to serve, and does not neccesarily (although it can) involve S/M. Anyone who knows me knows I am NOT a submissive, and yet I choose, everyday to be submissive to my "higher power" (god the universe, or whatever you choose to call it). My slave alaina is even less submissive than I am, and she has chosen a lifelong commitment as my slave. With ALL due respect, from what I have seen of her,I dont think slave marsha has a submissive bone in her body either(winks). However, what they have chosen to do, which is far more beautiful to me, is to use thier strong personalities, gifts and talents in service to another. Also, from what I have seen, many Masters are submitting their power as Master to the greater good, in order to make themselves, and their slaves, better people, using M/s as a spiritual path. The fact that events such as Butchmann's weekends are packed far in advance are testiment to this. So, to me, no, one does not have to be a submissive to submit.
Just one man's opinion,

Warmly,
MasterSteel (in devoted service to the Universe), and alaina (in devoted service to MasterSteel)

i hope no one thought that i *wouldn't* respond to this thread! (i KNOW Ryan expected me to respond. *kiss*)

i think much of the confusion over "submissive" v. "slave" arises from the fact that our community has a strong bias against "definitions." While i'm not out to put anyone in a "box" or to "label" them, without some common understanding of what me mean by the language we use, we're going to continue to revisit questions like this one.

i see our community using the word "submissive in two very different ways -- leading to tremendous confusion:

1. Sometimes the word "submissive" is used to mean a person who has turned over some control of his/her life -- but not all of it -- to someone else. This might be the person who agrees to turn over all control for the duration of a scene, but no longer. This might be the person who is in a long term -- even 24/7 -- relationship, but who retains control over some parts of his or her life such as career, finances, etc.

2. Sometimes the word "submissive" is used to define a personality type. Often, this person is described as passive, non-aggressive, preferring to let others make the decisions, more of a follower than a leader, someone who is not very outspoken.

i am not submissive under either of these definitions. i don't fit definition #1 because i've turned over control of all aspects of my life, all the time, to Master Jim. i don't fit definition #2 because i am extremely assertive (some would even say aggressive), i can and do make decisions when Master Jim so directs, i tend to be the person who wants to be the one making things happen, and i am extremely outspoken. (i know that comes as a great surprise to you all...*laughing*)

But i've chosen to place my will under the will of another -- Master Jim. In fact, the dictionary defines "to submit" as placing one's will under the will of another. By that definition, i would be a submissive. Unfortunately, that's not the definition i see commonly used in the community.

i believe slaves absolutely do not have to be "submissive," as that word is usually defined by our community. For me, the definition #1 our community uses for submissive is mutually exclusive with being a slave. As for definition #2, i know a few slaves who i would say have "submissive" personalities, but not many.

However, do slaves have to be "submissive" in the sense that we must plac our will under the will of another? Yes.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

marsha m 46
 
11-24-2003 03:38 PM ET (US)
 i hope no one thought that i *wouldn't* respond to this thread! (i KNOW Ryan expected me to respond. *kiss*)
 
slave marsha, you never cease to amaze me!! your definitions ring very true to me at the core of my being. Thank you and *kisses back*, Ryan

Edited by author 11-24-2003 05:54 PM
thank you so much for the insight. I will definitly look at the word submissive (and submissives and slaves on a whole) in a whole new light. I wanted to write more but I find I need to think on this and how it related to my relationship with e and how it will impact my future interactions with others.
thank you again,

*i think much of the confusion over "submissive" v. "slave"*

one thought which ocurred to me when i read this comment-

i remember well when i was first starting my journey on this path, struggling to understand who was who, what was what, and what did it all mean??? i by no means have all the answers now, but as i grow and learn, i have realized that there is no agreed upon "job descriptions" or "requirements". i think i wanted to see something like "If you are 3 or more of these characteristics then you are____fill in the blank___". The truth seems to be not so simple, but rather MORE simple. If you listen to your heart and walk your path you will know who and what you are. It isn't about what anyone else is, or what anyone else thinks. How i struggled to understand how someone so strong, opinionated, and independent as myself could be a submissive! i even had my fledgling lifestyle confidence squashed by an early Dominant who told me i was NOT, and never would be a submissive. Although it hurt badly to hear it at the time, i now know he was right. i am a slave, and a strong-willed, stubborn one at that (my poor Owner) and i happily (most of the time) and willingly (always) submit all aspects of my life, to Master Steel, all of the time. i am slave, and submissive - to Him. No one else would use submissive in an adjective associated with my name i am willing to wager. As a matter of fact, there was a little teasing going on at work one time, and they were joking about how i would show up with my riding crop and boots and make sure everyone toed the line. Looking back, i suppose they were right except i would have had to ask Master's permission to borrow the crop! <s>

so although i had my own time of struggling with who am i, and where do i fit in, and which label is mine, i think if we follow our hearts we find the way.

in service to Master Steel,
alaina

alaina,

Thank you so much for your point of view. I am still on the struggling part of my journey. I have always identified myself as a submissive, but an awful lot of me doesn't fit the definitions. I am assertive, outspoken, and enjoy being a leader. In the past, I assumed that a Master, owner, or Dominant would have to be MORE assertive, MORE outspoken, and more of a leader than I in order to control me. I'm realizing that it's not even about being controlled. It's about trusting another enough to hand my strong will over to him or her. Perhaps the right person would actually celebrate those traits and use them as assets instead of liabilities.
I still have a long ways to go on my path. It's frustrating to me because I really an not sure where the path is going. I feel like it's meandering, sometimes in great, beautiful scenery, and sometimes in the dark. I'm glad that I have friends in all parts of the life lighting cigars here and there, helping me find the way through the darkness.


ember

I am getting in a little late on this discussion, but I would like to offer my thoughts.

I think it is unfortunate that the term "submissive" has come to imply a certain set of personality traits in a person. In my mind, when I use the term submissive -- and by the way, I NEVER use the term "sub" or "subbie" -- I am referring to a person's position. A person who is in a Dominant/submissive relationship or a person who is in some degree of service to another. I think in the leather/SM community, the term "submissive" has become a shorthand reference to an individual who both is in a position of service *and* who must, by definition, have personality traits like the ones I have described.

A person who is in the position of a submissive by no means has to exhibit some of the traits commonly associated with "being submissive" such as passiveness, shyness, weakness, etc. There are certainly some individuals in the leather community who identify as submissives who have such personality traits, but there are many who identify as submissives who exhibit another set of traits such as assertiveness, strength, and leadership.

So, in sum, to me submissive translates as a position and does not imply any set of personality traits.

"So, in sum, to me submissive translates as a position and does not imply any set of personality traits."

Master Jim, thank you Sir; direct and to the point Sir.

I want to wish all members and readers of Master Jim and slave marsha's blog a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday. Ryan

So if I get this right, it would be A submissive, A slave, A Dominant, A Master. is that what you mean by their position? what about a person in service? what would there position be?

And thank you for this venue.

Talon,

Yes, I believe you have it correct -- although in fact, the more I think about it, a better term than "position" may be "identity." As with my definition of position, "identity" is not the same thing as a set of personality characteristics. So, there are identities of submissive, slave, Master/Mistress and Dominant, among others. None of these identities/positions mandates a specific set of personality characteristics.

A person in service may have the identity of submissive, slave, boy/boi, girl, and even Dominant or Master/Mistress.

For example, slave marsha is in my service. Her identity is that of slave. I own her. However, I also have another person in service to me who also identifies as a slave. This person is not my slave, but rather is in my household under a 6 month service agreement. As a third example, as many know, I had Ryan in service to me for the Masters' Retreat. I described him as a man in service, as none of the other identities seemed appropriate for him during that time of service.

To close, what we see in the community are different identities and many variations of service that do not fit the simplistic reference to "being submissive." As I said in the first post, our shorthand reference to "submissive" can confuse what are more complex relationships.

thank you, as always I find a lot to glean from talking with you. You have helped me in my journey Tremendously. And also slave marsh and Ryan have been very helpful.

First I would like to thank everyone who has posted here. This forum is amazingly timely for me personally and I appreciate the insight.
I am currently a collared boi, traveling down this twisted path.
The one thing that is becoming very clear is that we have a language problem in our community. The English language seems to be insufficient for the needs we have for expression. I find that there are as many definitions of boy/boi as there are people in that role. From the messages here we can see there are many ways of looking at submissive. Then, when putting a few of the words together...well, it just gets down right confusing.
And then there are those of us who wear many hats. I get to take out my Top hat, along with a bag full of wicked tools, and play on the other side of the street. Finding a name for that guy...Collared Top Son-of-B.... Boy, Sir. <laughing> Sometimes it just gets so funny that I really do laugh. One pretty great thing about all this is that we don't have to force ourselves into anyone else's label. Part of choosing this life is getting to set it up so that it works for the people involved. I can easily look around and become overwhelmed...I can't hope to be a boy like that...or a slave like that...but I know now that I can be a boy exactly like me. Should I take on a different role, I can be the one that is exactly like me. Whatever the label may be. Maybe I will make up my own word for it. Thank you all again.
Vic
Lady Sharrin's boi

Greetings… I have enjoyed reading the many thoughts shared thus far. I thought I might add my particular twist to the discussion.

Over and above everything else spoken here, I believe aggressiveness to not only be acceptable, but often prized in Western culture, and the lack of, scorned. Not surprisingly, I have seen this attitude often reflected within the leather community.

It is my observation what frequently is brought up for discussion is the 'shadow' side of the submissive (personality type): abject, meek, ingratiating, lowly, malleable, resigned. It seems that when this is discussed many forget that there are positive traits: acquiescent, deferential, obedient, humble, unresisting, yielding, dutiful. And that these can be a source of strength.

Are submissives (identity) generally seen as having only the shadow side of the submissive coin, while slaves are magically endowed with the empowering traits?

The identity of "submissive" does not mean that the shadow side always prevails. Submissives CAN, in fact, conduct themselves from a place of personal power. They CAN be at different times, aggressive, assertive, and passive, depending on what is thought to be necessary in a given situation.

Personal power transcends personality type. Slaves who identify as submissive, just as those who don't identify as submissive, are capable of putting conscious thought into their choices and decision making, just like anyone else.

Namaste,
Robi

Thank you marsha, the story was wonderful. I also have wonderful memories of black polish on my boots, the feel of hands on my feet through the boots, and looking down at the bootblack in front of me and reaching down to run my hands thru her hair and feeling her press the side of her face into me leg.

Thank You, to you and to the bootblack that inspired you to write it.

  Oh my, oh my.....your story moved me in oh so many ways, marsha... i feel as though i just witnessed an incrediably intimate moment, and i don't want too say to much for fear of losing the feel of it...nicely done. i for one, would consider myself blessed, to have you and your scruffed up combat boots in my chair...

peace,
gwen

Wow. What can a guy do but just say Wow. What a wonderful story to wake up to this morning. My gratitude to the bootblack and to all of us that *get* the butch-femme dance. This was a great treat. Thank you marsha.
Vic
Lady Sharrin's boi

Hi marsha--

Very nice story. I'm a huge fan of bootblacking and good boot service from the top.

However, I do have a question--maybe this shows my ignorance of the butch-femme dynamic--I'm a butch who's mostly into butches. Why did you choose to call the butch 'he'? I gathered from your writing--maybe I'm wrong--that the bootblack was female-id'ed? Is it a common thing to call butches he?

Thanks,
DaddySir

Hiya-
I have been reading for a time and have been sort of called out of lurking mode. I would like to answer DaddySir's question if I could - since I am the bootblack in the marsha's story. (Can I say that without blushing a little bit?)

I can only speak for my self identity, so that's all I'm gonna do here. I am a biologically female, masculine identified butch. My preference is to be referred to with masculine pronouns. Masculine pronouns best 'fit' the space and energy I assume in my relationships and my life. 'She', 'her' and the like just do not work for me. Most people who know me well can completely understand what I mean when I say that. And in a butch-femme dynamic, it seems completely natural - compared to femmes, I am most definitely 'he'.

Is it a common thing among butches? That is a complete matter of personal preference in my experience. I don't freak out if I am called 'she' but I will often politely express my desire that people use 'he' (when appropriate of course - Grandma still gets to call me she!). If you are not sure what a particular butch wants to be referred to as, just ask. Most of us don't bite the heads off of small children, kick cats or chew chrome tailpipes for breakfast.

Thanks for the time.

Jack

*laughing*

Jack, thank you for answering. (And i'm really relieved that you said exactly what i would have said.)

Most of all, thank you for "outing" yourself as the bootblack in the story. i didn't want to do it until i asked you... but i want you (and everyone else) to know how proud i am that you *are* the bootblack. (Not to mention, i'm happy for everyone to know that i think you're a very hot butch... and.. well... okay, i'll stop right here...)

i also want to say that while i use masculine pronouns to refer to Jack (and it seems absolutely natural to me), i don't think of him as a man. Jack is a butch... and that, to me, is simply something altogether different from a man... and completely wonderful.

A femme who just adores butches,
marsha

Jack, your answer put a BIG smile on my face. slave marsha has taught me to always ask which title or pronoun the individual wants me to use. When in doubt, just asked . . . and, no one has ever bitten my hand, or anything else for that matter. In reality, the act of asking honors the person being asked. I really had to laught when you said your Grandma still gets to call you "she" . . . Grandmas always get special dispensations. Thanks Jack, Ryan

Jim, Marsha,
                      In preparation for writing the ads and creating discussion about your upcoming visit to LOCK on the 24 and 25 of January, I sent the link to your blog to my slave adrienne to get her thoughts. What follows is her thoughts in their entirety. I wrote her back that while I did not share her views, that she certainly had given me another set of eyes through which to view things......specifically that of a heterosexual high nose bleed femme. One of her proudest moments at Together In Leather was being able to buy a Girl (even spelled Girl, I believe) Pride pin from Sheryl Dee. Her letter to me made me stop and consider, whether het female submissives and slaves who are high femme get short shifted in the eyes of the organized public bdsm community as a whole and the gay/lesbian community specifically, especially with the respect (that is deserved) and stage time that those like yourselves, Vi Johnson (my leather mom) Master Steve Sampson, Master Doug Harris (whom I was in service to), Guy Baldwin, Catherine Gross, Midori, Laura Antoniou, et al get. I’m a het male who simply smiled at her excitement at the Girl Pride pin, giving it little thought, until I read this letter. Are high femme het female submissives and slaves second class citizens, not to be taken seriously, simply viewed as bimbo’s, neither or are they viewed as something else altogether? Where, other than net based, are there examples to dispel the ideas that she puts forth below? I am very much looking forward to seeing you both as well as Jack at LOCK in January and look forward to reading your thoughts.

Justin Medlin

**************************************************************************************

Master,
1. I have just finished reading Master Jim and slave marsha's blog. Some of the things I agree with. The thing about the socks was cute and true. I like the thing about "let's not have 8,346 slave rules"-- just obey and be available to serve. Yep. Yep. Couldn't agree more.
Unfortunately no lights went on for me. No Ah Ha moments, nothing that I haven't though of three million times before. However, what did happen, was that my biggest hot buttons were pushed...repeatedly.
There was a certain theme in the blog, which I like to call the "Velveteen Rabbit Syndrome". This theme was repeated time and time again-- with the Indiana Jones and the plain holy grail story, with the marsha wants to be a racehorse like Sea Biscuit story, and the I'm-gonna-dress-my-femme-up-in-unattractive-clothes-and-combat-boots-because-slaves-who-dress-attractively-are-not-really-slaves boot blacking story.
The theme is this: Whatever is plain and unremarkable is real. Anything that is beautiful, pretty, creative, fantastic, or sparkling in anyway is false and should be avoided ESPECIALLY in a slave. If your dreams involve bejeweled lovely grails or doors or racehorses, you should by no means follow your dreams. And god help you if you're a femme. You better put on some butch boy clothes and combat boots immediately. You must always chose the plain, unadorned cup, the plain unadorned girl, the plain unadorned LIFE, for then and only then will you be REAL. Only the old, creaking, and plain are real-- much like the Velveteen rabbit.
To be blunt, sir, I think that is a load of crap. True service comes from a slave giving her total self- her soul, her talents. If those talents and that slave and her soul are plain and unadorned as a wooden cup, then by all means, that's what she should offer up. My soul isn't like that. My soul and my body and my life and dreams are beautiful- covered in jewels, gold, silver, and furs. My soul is a shining star. I have vast fantasy landscapes inside me that flow out into my life-- the way I move, the clothes I wear, the service I offer. Life is an art to me. Be it turning a hotel room into a palace, decorating my body with clothes, or buying a cheeseburger-- it is art. If I try to be plain and combat booted and wooden and creaky-kneed, I am being untrue to myself. I will be miserable, and that will impair my service. I am a femme. I am a nose bleed Mt. Everest high femme girly girl's girly girl. I have within me deep oceans of shining mystery. And you own that. If you owned a Ferrari, would you sand off the paint and smash a couple dents in it with a baseball bat so it wouldn't be too beautiful and therefore "unreal" ? No ! So why the heck would you put a femme in combat boots ?!?!?!
In the same grain, I think it is absolutely wretched advise to tell people to go after the "plain wooden cup" instead of the "golden bejeweled cup" in their search for a partner, and in life. People who go for the "plain wooden cup" end up going for the plain wooden job at Burger King, and living in a plain single wide trailer, and wondering why their dreams never came true. I don't settle. I always go for the beautiful, golden, bejeweled cup in life. I have big dreams, and I make them come true. Like the woman in the story, who immediately shriveled up and turned into a skeleton when she chose the beautiful cup, following my dreams sometimes gets me into situations where I feel like I am being burned alive. (the confrontation with Charlie, for example). Sometimes It gets me into situations where I feel absolutely ground into dust, in the way that the beautiful grail woman's skeleton then disintegrates and blows away in the Indiana Jones movie. Yes that is the price of going for the golden cup, but I would never, NEVER allow myself to go for less. Look at who I've got as a Master ! You ! If I had settled for the plain wooden cup, I would still be with Michael ***** in a trailer, probably with a bunch of kids on welfare.
There are so many voices in this world that say "you can't", "You must settle", "Be Practical, Don't follow your dreams", "You don't deserve to be beautiful, so you should pretend that anything that is beautiful is shallow and unreal so you won't have to face the pain of the fact that you have sold yourself short by denying your own soul !". I think it is unfortunate that people as amazing as I know Master Jim and slave marsha to be are spreading this message in our community. We have enough nay sayers and people who would turn beautiful femmes into boys (cause only boys are REAL slaves) , and creaking kneed race horses, and people who have refused to allow themselves to follow their dreams and be true to their beautiful souls. We need someone to encourage us to take the golden cup, instead of settle for the plain cup of wood.
Love
adrienne

  Hello and thanks for all the thoughts. There are some hot topics on board these days. Enough to keep a boy's mind busy for a bit...
marsha, i am still rereading the bootblacking piece often. It's hot!Your description of the scene was like being there. Did you know how much respect this boy has for the scuffy boots? It would be such a privilege to shine the scuffs that come from your service.
  i was lucky enough to spend a week ago Sunday on my knees at our local leather bar shining lots of men's boots for the TboL/MLT hot ash party. i had a few really intense scenes with that, and then i came home and found your entry. i would have loved to have your femme combats on our stand that day. i did come home with a few tales to tell though.
On another note,
 It's interesting how we can get different messages from reading the same text. One thing i never heard in Master Jim and slave marsha's blog was that we should settle for the ordinary or the mediocre. Knowing them both, inspires me not to settle. i think what i get from their message is a reminder that sometimes it's good to look beyond the surface. Because sometimes things and people who present as modest and unassuming on the outside are amazing and exemplary. We might overlook this, because they are not into the ego. The reverse situation can also be true.
   i also think that it's great for femmes to be high femmes and portray their love for that in their fashion. It's all about what their Master likes and about service. And that's the bottom line. i agree that a femme can serve as well as a boy. Anyone who knows Master Jim and marsha, know that their Mastery and slavery are far from the "wooden cup" variety.
In leather and the spirit of service,
alex

Edited by author 12-10-2003 01:23 AM
marsha and I were talking and I said I would be happy to post my side of the story. I said I would ...so here it is for anybody who wants to read.

               Boots to Flirt With

I finish his boots and kneel, waiting for the only thanks I need. There is something about doing the boots of a man who appreciates what he is getting. I have spent too long shining boots of men who do not know what they are getting. Men who have no idea of the effect that the act of working has on me. Men who only know that their boots shine, not that for the time we have spent together, I have made them shine. The simple act of doing his boots has put me into my groove. And, the entire time I have felt you watching. Just another small pleasure.

“There’s time for your boots, too, if Jack has time.”

I blink once and blush, hoping you don’t notice. This should be the capper of the afternoon.

Few femmes appreciate the art of blacking. Most of them show up in my chair and present me with some thigh-high patent leather jobs. They aren’t worth more than a quick wipe down and a nod. No work, no trouble, no real fun.

“I apologize in advance. My boots are bad.”

You slide into my chair. I put your feet on my thighs and I smile. Corcorans! A femme with real boots. Boots that I can sink into. Boots that I can work with. Boots that demand more from me … giving me a chance to romance them a little bit. Boots to flirt with.

I start to work on them and work with you. I let my hands do what they know so well and let my mind start and carry me away. I silently wish that the lights were not so bright, that we were tucked away somewhere. I wish the people would disappear because I know this is going to get intimate.

I flame the polish, play with the fire and dip my fingers in. Putting warm wax to your boots makes you sigh. That’s all I need to know you are in my world now. We start the chat…the flirt. The world fades and there is only you and me.

“So tell me about you.”

I rub the polish into your boots. Apply enough pressure to make you know my hands are touching some part of you. I concentrate on what I am doing, so that I can forget that I am dying to touch you everywhere.

“You are an old school butch.”

I pick up the brush and lick it once. I seem to have lost my ability to spit.

“You like butches.”

I buff out the first coat. The boots are starting to shine. I flame again and start on the second coat. I am starting to want to make this last a while. At the same time, I know that the best part is coming and I want to be there NOW.

“And no partner for a fine femme like you?”

I slide to my belly and start licking your boots. You stop talking and lean back in the chair against the wall. I work my tongue all along the toes and sides of your boots. You scratch my back, my head. Yes! Femme nails. Something every butch adores. You moan a little and start climbing out of the chair. I look up and see you grabbing the wall. We are really flirting with a sort of danger zone…dancing a public dance to some very private music. How far can I push this? How far can we take it?

I sit back up and grab your boot. I put it against my chest, lean in, feeling your hair shield us from the world.

“Push as hard as you want. It makes it better.”

You push your foot into my chest and I start buffing to a hard shine. I am not even looking anymore, just watching you struggle to regain the composure you lost. And hoping you have no idea of just how much composure you made me give up. When I am finished with one boot, I take your foot and place it against my thigh.

“Is all that for me?”

I take your other foot and place it squarely into my chest. Leaning into you, I smile.

“All that and then some.”

Time goes too fast. I finish up and stand quietly.

Offering you my hand, I help you from my chair. You give me one sweet femme kiss. The taste and smell of lipstick almost makes me fall over. Or perhaps, it’s just the flirt.

Jack

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i’ve been lurking and reading the blog and shared thoughts for several months. Adrienne’s note which was shared encouraged me to step up to the plate and share thoughts. The first time i encountered slave marsha was at a all woman’s tea over a year ago, at the time my first impression was what a beautiful woman in all aspects, that impression has remained the same. My encounter with the leather community has never been discrimination for the high femme or for the low femme, or for those who identify as butch. It has been about accepting who you are, be who you are. For many females we are raised that we must be a certain size, a certain dress style, certain makeup, a certain (fill in the blank). For many, it is a relief to shed the expectations of society and wear army boots because that is most comfortable. There is something to be said about the humility involved with the ability to shed America's obsession with appearance, the freedom of being confident enough to be who you are, whether it is a high femme or a butch boy (boi). The most beautiful i’ve ever felt was when shaving my head in my early 40’s as a het female it was very liberating to be confident enough in myself to risk the comments which would be received. (FYI at that time was uninvolved, it was something done for myself by myself.) Beauty is not what is shiny and sparkly, beauty is what radiates from below the skin. For some army boots are what makes them comfortable, for others 4” stiletto is what makes them comfortable. It has been my experience that the treatment received is the same in the leather community, it isn’t about appearance, it is about heart, soul and desire to serve.

vickie

Dear Justin and adrienne,

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to the Edgeliving website -- especially adrienne, for being honest with her thoughts and feelings about what she read. There are a number of issues raised by adrienne's comments, so i'd like to just comment briefly on a few specific issues in this email and then either Master Jim or i will post separately to address the more general issue that adrienne raises about our message.

adrienne, let me start by saying that it doesn't suprise me that what you read didn't cause you any "ah ha!" moments -- what i say about my slavery is really a very personal journey. It's contained a lot of "ah ha!" moments for me, but certainly not necessarily for anyone else. i think that's the value of having many people presenting and talking in the leather/SM community. What Master Jim and i have to say may touch and help some people, and not help others at all.

Next, i'd like to raise a point of disagreement with something you wrote -- and that's the use of the word "femme." i absolutely realize that of late, the word "femme" has been used in the leather/SM community to describe any woman who defines herself as "girly" or "feminine." i know that it has become a common identifier in the Girl Pride Movement (a movement that i support). However, i do not agree that "femme" is just another way of saying girly or feminine, or of describing a woman who likes clothes, makeup, etc. For me (and for at least some women in the lesbian community), "femme" has a very long history (dating back to at least the early 1900's) and a specific and necessary connection to sexual orientation. i realize that we'll probably just agree to disagree on this, but i think it's important to this discussion for us to realize that when you call yourself a "femme" and i call myself a "femme," we mean different things. What we absolutely agree on is that "boys" (whether they are biological males or females) absolutely are not the only ones who can serve -- nor are gay men and lesbians. A heart for service and obedience is found across all genders and sexual orientations -- as well as all fashion styles!

Now, to the way Master Jim requires that i dress. He does require that i dress rather simply and plainly -- more plainly than i probably would if i had my choice. (Which, of course, as a slave, i don't.) As Master Jim always says, the right way for a slave to dress is however his/her Master wants him/her to dress. But even with the way Master Jim chooses to have me dress, i'm no boy and i don't look like one, that's for damn sure! *laughing* Master Jim has no desire to make me into a boy -- i'm His slave. For Master Jim, my gender is a secondary issue -- it's my desire to be a slave that is primary.

The thing is, one of the reasons Master Jim dresses me in a simple fashion is that He believes it *enhances* my beauty, both inside and outside. (There are lots of other reasons He chooses to dress me this way that we also could discuss.) i understand that you might find the way i am required to dress to be terribly unattractive, or even ugly, and perhaps your Master would, too. But Master Jim doesn't dress me this way to make me *unattractive* -- in fact, the way He dresses me *is* attractive to Him.

You know, it's a lot like fashion designers. Some designers approach making things beautiful with lots of pattern and color and sparkly things -- Alexander McQueen or Betsy Johnson or Bob Mackie or Isaac Mizrahi. Others choose to make things beautiful through simplicity -- like Calvin Klein or Armani or Zoran or Jil Sander. There are many approaches to beauty.

But i do have to admit one thing -- i *am* creaky kneed. *laughing* If anyone has a cure for that, please let me know!

Let me close this post with this point, because it is very, very important to me.

i believe that by choosing the path of Mastery and slavery, i have followed my dream. i believe that in doing that, i have absolutely refused to settle for mediocrity. Believe me -- it took me a long time to get here, and i had to make some hard choices to do it. And i honor anyone else who has the courage to step out on this path, whatever clothing or shoes they may wear.

So again, adrienne, thank you for your post... and either Master Jim or i will address the comments on the general theme of what we say about Mastery/slavery in another post.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

In a message dated 12/10/03 8:37:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
qtopic+23-Ja5N3xcn6nsA9@quicktopic.com writes:

> But i do have to admit one thing -- i *am* creaky kneed.
> *laughing* If anyone has a cure for that, please let me know!
>
>
marsha.....


just a quick side note for the creaky kneed set...(including myself).
Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM are really fabulous supplements for joint health...and available at most drug stores, (but only if your are not seafood or sulpher sensitive due to the origin of these substances....). Not cure, per se, but certainly something helpful..

peace,

streetdog, aka Dr.Dog....

Jim, Marsha,
            Adrienne has no idea that I chose to post her letter to me. The only things that she takes the time to read online, as they concern lists or web sites are ones that I specifically direct her to. She finds them to be inbox fillers and little else.

I would like to state up front that neither my post or Adrienne's letter was an attack on either of your views, or beliefs. Simply stated, so much of what is put out there today as examples or looking below the surface (which we both agree with) does so at the expense of those who do take their appearence and how they project themselves through it, seriously, especially as it pertains to het females, through the sheer NUMBER of examples that down play appearance. Granted I am splitting hairs here. Hi, I'm Justin and I am a hair splitter.

I have used (and Adrienne does as well) the term "femme" as counter to butch. I appreicate the history on the word and will here after simple use girly girl to denote that I am speaking of heteroxesual females, as opposed to say, grrrly grrl.

I really had not given the Girl Pride movement much thought until now. Do you think that that a movement, or any sort is used to draw attention to and support of a group that feels its either repressed or over looked? I cetrainly don't know the basis or history of the Girl Pride movement; I know much more by comparison to the Boy/Boi movement, which bob Harris, the closest thing that I will ever have to a blood brother did much to encourage and support buefore his death. If ample and attention and respect were being paid to boys/boi's and girly girls, what would be the basis for ever starting a movement?

Personally when I read this blog for the first time, I got a warm glowing feeling and while it di not provide an "Aha!" moment in considering something new, it did provide an "Aha!" moment in that there was two more people who felt the way that I did, as it pertained to service and the one rule...obey...and how clearly and simply that those concepts were expressed. I am very much looking forward to reading both or yalls further thoughts and I sincerely hope that I have not offended either of you with my questions or my property's reactions.

Justin Medlin

Justin,

No offense on my part -- i just believe in taking advantage of the opportunity to expand on, clarify or just reinforce what i intended to communicate. i do know that Master Jim is writing something about the general issue of His approach to Mastery and slavery -- not because He's offended, but because He also always takes the opportunity to clarify what we've said.

As to the Girl Pride movement -- it's new, but clearly has support, especially (although not exclusively) among heterosexual females. It seems to me that the groundswell of support indicates that a group of people feel left out of or not acknowledged by the community in some way.

Are there boys' and girls' movements because "ample attention and respect" are not being paid to these segments of the community? i don't know -- because i truly don't know what constitutes "ample attention and respect." That concept will mean very different things to different people. i do know that when bob Harris and i taught together at The boys' Training Camps in Dallas, our number one message to the boys, girls, submissives and slaves there was that in order be respected, you needed to respect yourself first. bob and i taught that the identities of boy/boi, girl, submissive and slave are honorable and powerful.

i do find it interesting that there does not seem to be a "slaves' movement" -- and trust me, we often aren't very high on the "respect meter" of the community. There are plenty of people in this community who think slaves are nothing more than doormats. (What really discourages me is when i hear boys say something like that -- and i have, on more than one occasion.)

And as one hair splitter to another... *smiling*... i take my appearance and how i project myself through it very seriously, because it reflects on Master Jim. i may not be the most noticable person in the room -- in fact, i hope i'm not -- but it is important to Master Jim and to me that my boots are polished, that my makeup (yes, i do wear it -- MAC is the preferred brand) is appropriately applied, that my nails are done and my hair and clothing are pleasing and attractive to Him. Look inside those combat boots and you'll find neatly painted toenails. (Lord, how i hate chipped polish!!) It's just that He doesn't want my looks to be the center of attention -- that's simply His preference and His approach.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

Marsha,
       Adriennes thoughts actually is less with the clothes and more with the fact that things must be plain to be real, that if they are bejeweled and fabulous, that they are not real.

I certainly agree with the fact that the master dresses their property as suites them and to reflect upon themself as they see fit. While I have never met you face to face, I did get to see you speak at Together In Leather at the Charlotte Eagle and you are far from ugly or unattractive. You reflect beautifully upon your master. And last but not least, I can certainly believe that your tow nails are polished and that you would be against, chipped or cracked polish. Nails? I painted nails.....all twnety of them lol.

Justin Medlin

I would have never guessed, what with your profession, that you would be a hair splitter lol ;)

One of the things I and slave marsha say in all of our presentations is that we welcome the hard questions and that we will do our best to be as honest and open about answering those questions as possible. While it is not my preference to be laid bare publicly, I do believe that by hearing questions and providing the best possible answers I am forced to examine both what I am saying and, even more importantly, the beliefs, positions, and philosophies that are the foundation of my statements. There have been many times that I have refined my thoughts and positions based on questions I have been asked and the resultant self-examination that followed. As did slave marsha, I thank adrienne for her thoughts as p0soted by her Master because it gave me cause to reexamine what I and slave marsha have been saying on the blog. I certainly take no offense to any thing that has been said.

While it is certainly possible that the blog writings may not have been clear, I can honestly say that the conclusions drawn do not represent what I believe. Am I suggesting that people should go after the “plain wooden cup” with the implication being that people must settle, they must be practical, and they should not follow their dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. In the first place, I am adamant that my path is my own and that how you walk your path is your choice and no one else’s. Having said that, I do encourage you to reach beyond the stars, to leave the safety of the harbor and sail the deep blue water, and to climb the highest of mountains in your search for fulfillment as a Master or a slave. Live your dreams and make your fantasies real. This does not mean that one must choose the unadorned cup in order to be a slave or that one must be plain to be real. slaves are not defined in terms of their gender, sexual orientation, what they wear, or how they look. slaves are defined by their heart and a desire to give all of themselves to their owner.

The analogy of the Indiana Jones’ version of the holy grail is directed at internal beauty and strength. The plain wooden cup, by the way, primarily refers to the Master in this case, but it could be a reference to either Master or slave. As the guardian knight says… “choose wisely” … his implication being, do not be fooled by external and trappings that adorn the Master, the slave, or the would-be-grail. While the external trappings may be simple and plain or elaborate and colorful, neither makes the Master or the slave. What lies inside defines who we are and that is where real beauty lies. Regardless of what one wears there is nothing plain about walking the path of Mastery and slavery.

In leather,

Master Jim

Maste Jim,
           Thank you. And on that note, its time for the breakfast cigar......

Justin Medlin

On Thursday 11 December 2003 12:38 am, you wrote:

> i do find it interesting that there does not seem to be a
> "slaves' movement" -- and trust me, we often aren't very high on
> the "respect meter" of the community. There are plenty of
> people in this community who think slaves are nothing more than
> doormats.

perhaps it's because, to paraphrase _Remains of the Day_, "i didn't have time for speeches, i was busy serving". unlike many variants of bdsm, "our" time is not our own, it belongs to our Owners and Masters and Mistresses.
furthermore, the approval of any but our Owner is, mostly, irrelevant... most slaves i know tend to be very self-comfortable, devoted to their Owners, and, while sometimes hurt by other bdsm'ers opprobrium, are often simply amused by the ranting and raving of folks who don't know any better... maybe because many of us have already been through the process of self-discovery from "raw newbie with vague self-identification", through experimenting with various options and labels available within the community, to the discovering that, for us, slavery is where we belong, where that void in our souls is finally filled.

many of us tend to try to "enlighten" others one person at a time - simply by living our lives in service to our Owners and letting others draw their own conclusions...

for me, the highest respect another can show me is to accept that i have the right to consent to being my Owner's property, and treat me like i have the brains to comprehend the ramifications of that consent.

babalon

Just letting you know I've been here reading... and in doing so, I've realized how much I miss you.

L.

babalon,

*smiling* Great answer. Thank you very much for taking the time to write.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

Hi folka--

Thanks for your responses Jack and marsha and others who contributed.

Just so I can be clear--I wasn't questioning anyone's gender or preferences et al, but asking a question that I didn't intend to be loaded..out of sheer not-having-run-into-that-before.

However, I have now--and thanks for your excellent answers!

Best,
DaddySir

Dear Friends,

Recent events at the Southwest Leather Conference and APEX have inspired the following:

A Personal Spiritual Journey (Master and slave Style)

By MasterSteel

        Before I talk about my recent spiritual experience you need to know a little about where I am coming from, and a bit about my belief system. I am not preaching, just giving you insight you'll need to understand the rest.
 
 Firstly, I am in a power exchange, Master slave relationship with slave alaina girl. Further, I believe with all I am that everyone is submissive to something. If you arent you are fooling yourself. Everyone needs to learn in life that life isnt all about them. I refer to whatever you are submissive to as your higher power, for lack of a better term. A higher power for most people is thier concept of "God." Many people, myself included, find god an elusive concept, and choose to pick something a little smaller to submit to. For my slave, her higher powers are the Universe, and me as her personalized worshipped part of the Universe (I am soooooo lucky)- Often she sees me as her connection with the Universe. For me, one of those smaller parts is my relationship with slave. Many people have Master slave relationships out there, but mine is more complicated than most. I am in a wheelchair, and my slave works. She has children and they live with us. I am also in love with my slave. These are all facts that complicate the matter, but we still make it work. That is a powerful relationship, thus worthy to me of that sort of respect. I look long term, and and willing to surpress a fleeting "now" urge to encourage long term happiness and health in our relationship.

 Secondly, as a child in the hospital much too much I eventually fostered a fear of needles. I couldnt even watch another get a shot. As an adult I went to a Butchmann's retreat, where I was laid down and given 14 ritual piercings in a row, which ended my illogical fear. Without conquering this fear, the rest of the journey could not have happened.

 Thirdly, due to my disability, coupled with the fact that slave works, I require a care aide to come into the house and assist me.

        Now to the recent journey...

        Until recently, this aide was a member of the Sioux Indian Nation. She believed me to be an unsually powerful person- one of the most powerful she ever met. This dialog led her to begin to teach me about Lakota Sioux ways. About this time, I was chosing my classes for next semester, and found that a certain class, "Native American Religions" actually satisfied two requirements for graduation, but was a single semster class. The fact that I was "coincidentally" already discussing such things with my aide was not lost to me. The main crux of the class was to be I would study a particular tribe. I was given the Sioux. We would also be given a project on a particular piece of indian religion- I was given the sun dance, one of the seven sacred Sioux rituals... (those coincidences were really adding up).
 
 A little later on, I heard that Southwest Leather Conference was going to be happening 5 miles down the road from me. My friend, the impish slave robert emailed me letting me know that there would be a piercing ritual very much like the "dragging of skulls" version of the sundance, which they called a primal ritual, or an energy pull. I asked to participate, and on the friday before the ritual, was accepted (to my slight horror, as eight gauge needles and hooks were going to be used- think the size of an icepick). I can remember listening in horror as the piercer described the brutality of the proccess with great loving detail.
 
 That evening I also met Master Taino, a lifestyle Master Daddy who's Mastering style is very much like my own. The fact that he mented that one of his slave's had been a follower of Lakota spirituality, and he respected the path very much only served to make the message that I needed to do this more clear. This happened repeatedly during the weekend. Master Skip gave a presentation on leather heart, sex and sprituality. The format was to use a "talking stick" like the Lakota used in council. Japanese fetish Diva Midori and her boy (who also has a strong warrior archetype) did a demo on "primal play" and my "sundance" was refered to repeatedly over the weekend as a primal ritual.
 
 Then an unexpected twist. The sundance is a warrior's dance, done as a sacrifice to a higher power. It was my intent to sacrifice to my relationship as my higher power. I have what I think of as my knight fetish/archetype outfit. And planned to wear it all day before the ritual. This bothered alaina as I would stand out. It was such a point of contention that I decided against it, and was rather hurt that is caused so much distress. It took the intervention of Master Skip's slave rick to set things back on track.
 
 The entire weekend I was fearing the ritual, and knowing I had to do it anyway. I can remember two voices in my head, one that kept asking me if I was crazy, the other telling me the things we fear we must do immediately. We did the things everyone does at Leather gatherings- played, went to presentations, bought new toys and socialized but I always had a portion of myself in the ritual, long before it began.
 
 The ritual itself was almost anti-climatic, or not at all what I expected, as it really only hurt for two minutes, when the needles went in. My primal animal totem, the gorilla, came out briefly- (I think there were a couple of very famous Masters the gorilla startled lol) but soon I felt rather normal. Never having been a part of anything like this, I joined the beginners group. I was very clear on my intention- this was to be a sacrifice of my blood and pain to my higher power, my sundance. I was hooked up and I pulled. Soon I realised I was pulling the beginner group around the room without much pain to speak of, and thus no real sacrifice. Too easy for my purpose here, I felt, very much like the vanilla, or the no love Master and slave relationship. I found from the first pulI was making these comparisons with my relationship as I pulled- remember the relationship was my higher power for which I danced.
 
 I was switched to the advanced group.
 
 I found with the advanced group, that dancing with them was very much like living the relationship I have with alaina- who is my slave, and whom I am deeply in love with. I would pull (take) and pull (take) then give a little (about twice as much taking, it seemed). I found, however that my taking was also a very needed part of the experience for the folks on the other side of the circle, for without my pulling, they were merely carrying dead weight. Not good for making energy, and even worse in a relationship.
 
 We dancers were each given a spirit dancer, and for a great deal of the time mine was a Master who had recently had quite a lot of emotional turmoil. I found that my dance helped him, as he seemed in much better spirits in the days that followed. This is like how my relationship helps others, as many mention how they find the energy of our love uplifting. When the dance was finished by the others, I was still ready for more. This is like my relationship in that whenever we part I am left wanting more, and always joyful when I see my slave again.

 The next day I was lucky enough to see Midori again, as she was giving a talk on unsual bondage. I noticed that compared to the times I saw her before, this weekend she seemed much more at ease, and more willing to give of herself- it was wonderful to see Midori the person instead of "just" the side of Midori that is the Fetish Diva. I gotta say also that I was EXTREMELY proud when I showed her alaina's collar and Midori mentioned how nice my calligraphy was (I was just pleased I got the correct radical).

 The next evening my whole family went together to see "The Last Samurai," and I couldnt help but wonder what was with all the Japanese influences in my path of late (usually of late its more Native American based). I asked myself what Samurai and the Sioux had in common. I knew they were both animistic, were great warriors, didnt fear death and didnt make a separation between living life and spirituality.
 That night I had a most unsual dream:
 
 I was riding a horse, on a long hard journey full of blood sucking monsters and very rough terrain- I dreamt this three times- three nightmares in a row. Finally, as I was waking up in the morning, I was half in my bedroom, mentally and half some other dreamy place. This made the last part seem more vision than dream. In this dreamy place, out of the mist came a group of samurai warriors. The lead warrior wore a bronze helmet that was forged like the head of a Buffalo, not an asian water buffalo, a native american Bison buffalo; this warrior seemed to me to be the great spirit, or his representative. It was to him I spoke. . .

 I asked him: How do I see you and how do I find you?

 He answered: Look without, and look within

 I asked: How do I know if I am on the right path?

 He thought this was humorous and said that there is no "wrong" path, that I can only go on one

 I asked him how do I know I am making the right decisions.

 He seemed a little surprised by this question, as if wondering why I would ask such a thing of him, as if I was wasting an oportunity to ask better questions. He then asked me "What is a bad decision?" He said there was no such thing as a bad decision as long as my heart was good. He turned around and began to ride back into the mist as alaina began to awaken in this world.
 Quickly I asked "Do I have a good heart?"
 
 Laughing in the distance, as the scene faded away I heard him faintly "your heart is good."

 So now as I pour over Shinto information, the journey of Spirituality continues, old questions answered, new ones turning up. The wheel spins and my journey continues. Thank you for reading this and participating on that journey.

MasterSteel

"What Is a Leatherman? Master Dean Walradt: A Tribute"

Master Jim Sir: I know without a doubt this post of Yours makes Dean very proud! Not only is it an incredible definition of what a leatherman is and is not, but it is also a beautiful and accurate tribute to Dean. I know that it made him smile on the Otherside. Thank you Sir, Ryan

Dean will be very much missed.I looked to him as a role model and learned so much from him.
The community will be a little empty with out him.

I would like to ask some questions to the board...

I am wondering how people deal with everyday life....and the M/s relationship? What do you do when the flu, bills, work, household things start to bogg you down? What do you do to maintain your M/s relationship so that it does not drown in the vanilla quicksand?

Thank you!

peace,
danae

dear danae,

that is (as groucho marx used to say) the $64 dollar question.
Add to your list, kids, work, school, a disabled Master and two families that dont understand the lifestyle and you kinda get an idea of the environment that the lovely alaina and I try to foster our M/s relationship in. It isnt easy, but the best things in life rarely are. I suggest you start with finding not just message boards like this one (Master Jim and slave marsha are wonderful to learn from)but look to your local M/s community for guidance. Perhaps a mentor is in order. Do you have a local MAsT chapter? They have been wonderful for us. Beyond that it is all about how important the M/s relationship is for you. Where there is a will there is a way. Specifics in our case:

The lovely alaina and I both do chores (I pick the ones I like and she does the rest lol), as I want to have time with my slave other than her doing chores. It is important for master to decide how many chores he will do, or how clean he wants his house, ect... The more time spent doing such things in our busy lives the less quality time available. These choices are important.

We are very careful about how and when we scene, as my disability makes certain bdsm acts difficult. We work around my disability (and the kids) so we can play, and figure it out, because its important to us.

We have very subtle protocols. Protocals are important, as the intent of it is usually to declare an aspect of the relationship. The actual act is less important. I take a bite of dinner and nod at the lovely alaina, which is her signal she may eat. No one would notice this, but it reminds us both that we are first.

I think another important thing to remember is that both slave and master are humans, and are going to make mistakes. Yes, even master is imperfect (especially alaina's Master <winks>). People get sick. One of the most touching relationships I have seen in this lifestyle is between Master Guardian and slave sugar. She is slave, but in a wheelchair. Master Guardian does what is neccesary for her to serve how she can. To me, it is a Master's responsibility to slave to accept and facilitate slave's good service, and he embodies this idea as well as any I have ever seen.

My last bit of advice is to see your lives as your lives in a holistic way. Do not fall into the trap of having vanilla parts and M/s parts. Look at the vanilla things you do as service to your Master.

In short, it is the responsibility of you nd your Master to decide that the "M/s-ness" of your relationship is important enough to foster, more important than the vanilla, and make it a priority to keep that attitude in all things you do

Hope this helps,

Warmly
MasterSteel
(in lifetime service to the universe as Owner and Master of the lovely alaina)

I finally caught up on some reading (as part of my new year resolution) and am still a bit in awe at Master Jim's words in 'What Is a Leatherman? Master Dean Walradt: A Tribute'.

I would never be as cheeky as to say we think alike but Master Jim's words are so similiar to the thoughts I am trying to put across lately..the thoughts I first verbalized at Together In Leather this past fall. Being a leatherwoman does not mean one has to be a stereotype. I am far from a stereotype yet I do consider myself a leatherwoman and my basis for this identity parallel those that Master Jim cited for a leatherman. It is the blending of my life and my activities that make me a leather person...a slave, a wife, a mother, a PTA Chair, a bootblack, an advocate of 'old school', a leather crafter, a businesswoman.

Thank you, Master Jim, for this affirmation.

Master Jim,thanks for those thoughts, Sir. From a boy's perspective,fear and worrying about mistakes sometimes becomes so consuming , that all one does is make more of them and not handle things very well. Then i guess if all a boy is doing is stressing about mistakes, he has lost the right spirit of service. But if a boy can just accept that mistakes are bound to happen, then he could focus on improving and just keeping his heart right in the Service. So then one mistake won't derail the whole train and become a catastrophe and the boy could provide a more consistent quality of service after all.

I rather looked at mistakes from the point of view of punishment being the Master's prerogative. I didn't get to punish myself for mistakes (usually by obsessing about them); that was up to someone else. It wasn't necessarily a matter of just accepting that some mistakes would happen; it was a matter of knowing that I would strive to do my best, hopefully be perfect and leave the disposition of the inevitable mistake to my Owner.

That's a good way to look at them. Anything is better than obsessing on them. Because that's way too self-involved....not to mention counter-productive.

That one took me a long time to learn, alex. And I didn't really get it until another boy talked about how he'd finally figured it out. For me, it was another step in learning to let go and give everything to my Master -- including self-indulgence.

Thankyou, Michael. i like your perspective. If i think about it that way then it'll be easier not to obsess. Just do my best, let go and surrender control is what it's about, eh?

i would be very interested in hearing slave marsha's viewpoints on dealing with the frustration of being unable to attain perfection in service. Do you have any helpful hints about how to keep your slave heart from despairing over the mistakes?

I am also very interested in hearing not only slave marsha's viewpoint about the slave side, but also from Master Jim,if he has any particular methods he uses when mistakes are made to help slave marsha to not despair.
This is an excellent topic, one close to my heart and life.

precious and Boi Vic,

Funny you should ask...*laughing*

i have a companion post about half written. South Plains really has me buried right now, but i'll try to finish the post in the next few days. Thanks for offering me some guidance and thoughts on what to explore in the post.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

I too would like to know of this as well. I have a friend who has a slave that makes consistent mistakes: partly due to ADD. What suggestions might you all offer in regards to disciplining in this aspect?

Good luck with South Plains, hope everything goes well.

Justin Medlin
Off To Smoke Another Of These Drew Estates

South Plains LeatherFest. Wow. What can I even say to begin to convey how amazing that weekend was for me?
First, I had never had the privilidge to hear Master Jim and slave marsha speak. *Thud* See me getting up off the floor after being knocked off my chair. Amazing, powerful, heart-wrenching on so many levels. I felt like they could see what was inside me and held it up and said "Yes, this is true and good and welcome." I felt like my heart and desires were validated all weekend long.
Master Jim, slave marsha and Mark Frazier...where ever you are, Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Now...I must sleep for a hundred hours. OK, well, maybe at least 10.
Vic

  I'll second that, vic. Southplains ranks as my favorite event...perhaps next year i will attend more than one workshop..:::laughing:::. For me, it felt as though we all had created a sacred space with our combined energies. Thank you's to all the volunteers who helped make the weekend happen, and above all, thank You to Master Jim, slave Marsha, and Mark Frazier for the countless hours You give to Your community....and now, back to napping....

peace,
gwendolyn

Greetings all,

I very much enjoyed reading the blogspot entitled: Perfection: A Conundrum of Mastery and slavery
Thank you Master Jim!

I did not attend South Plains this year. I have heard such wonderful stories of this event and will certainly look forward to attending in the future. (What I'd be curious to know is whether other Masters ever get caught pouting or whether they are stoic to the end? *smiling*)

 * * *
Sir Tim's marla, perhaps you will find something helpful in this writing.

I accept the fact that enarian(my slave) will make a mistake at some point, somewhere along our journey, therefore 'she' cannot disappoint me. It is not productive for her, nor for myself, to get caught up overmuch in the duality of success and failure. I'm more interested in progress and what is ahead. The awareness gained from these lessons always brings progress and rewards for us both.

Defense of one's actions implies threat of attack, whether real or imagined. In learning "how to" communicate with enarian and correct more effectively, I found that by being careful not to focus on her nor on what was done, that by conveying my preference for 'future' actions/responses, she did not interpret correction to be about her(doing it wrong) nor did she dwell on it. If she is accepting of correction and able to move on, she is in a much better place to be of service to me.

I understand that enarian will not always agree with my decision/directive. What I appreciate is that she work with the directive regardless of her personal opinions and wishes. Having said that, she is given time to share ideas, concerns, and I often seek her wisdom and counsel, this being part of my slave's service. What enarian has conveyed to me, is that because of this, she feels heard and valued regardless of the decision/directive given.

There was a word and an idea slave marsha(thank you) gave me during a workshop two years ago. That word being 'transparent' and it being part a slave's service to be transparent. This word and idea enarian heard, and immediately understood when I in turn shared it with her. It has been a positive influence to further improve our communication. (I feel a corresponding transparency of myself is also necessary to attune my slave to me and to fully serve me best.)

A tool that has worked for me when conflict did arise, was the use of a dictionary and/or thesaurus that we both referred to during discussion. I have often found that it is really the words chosen to express a thought/idea/plan, and not the thought/idea/plan itself, that was the root of it. It is my understanding that words have emotional attachments and inferences, and the direction that these may take, can vary for each person. Using a dictionary has been very helpful in clarifying meaning and intent(direction). By selecting words that more clearly conveyed the thought/energy and direction I wished to take us, and thereby creating a common language for us both. Master/slave has been like learning a new language and a new way of living. Many old ways of thinking were no longer applicable.

There is a saying that goes something like, "the people who push our buttons the most are our greatest teachers". I try to keep in mind that my slave is as much my teacher, as I am hers. After almost four years together, I feel that we have most of the crucial groundwork addressed, and now all we have is... work. Good thing I enjoy my work! *smiling*

Namaste,
Robi

I really enjoyed "The Pursuit of Perfection", it's interesting how that whole concept can fit into many areas of your life. Climbing the mountain one inch at a time. I can relate to the pursuit of perfection, in many areas of my life and really enjoyed reading this. It made me think about the pursuit of perfection, and remember i must stop and smell the roses along the way. Thank you for sharing your journey.

  Last weekend, I found myself explaning "what i get out of D/s..." to someone who is on the outskirts of this life, looking in. The discussion covered various aspects of why I do what I do, what gets me hot, what feeds me, etc. The whole aspect of me needing to be of service, and specifically in service to another, was unclear to her, until I explained I was chasing perfection. I know it's not a state I will reach in this realm, and that's really okay. I savor the chase....once perfection is attained, what else would there be to strive for?

peace,
gwendolyn

Hi everyone!

i am new to this site and message board but have been in the community quite a few years and have probably bumped in to a few of you along the way. i love this site, it has been immensely helpful in my journey as a slave.

i have a question i would like to pose. i was curious if there are any other slaves/bottoms/boys/girls (you get the picture) out there that also happen to be bi-polar.

i certainly am and this has been particularly challenging (and at times exhausting for both Master and myself) in terms of my service because every so often i cycle big and it throws off the wonderful balance i have with my Master in terms of the joy i experience and my own doubts in my abilities and why i do this. Once the cycle is over, all is well for many weeks or months.

i am curious to know if there are others like me out there and how they handle it when they cycle. How they keep their focus and energies to make the ride during those times smoother. Master has gotten used to them by now and so doesn't worry much when i have a difficult few days but it throws me way out of whack.

Hope this post wasn't too much, i really am just curious about the experience of others and what works for them in terms of bipolarity and service.

Thanks so much, be well all!

What is perfect and perfection to me? Having absolute confidence that everything I need, want, and desire as Master is at my fingertips, this also includes the lessons I need to perfect my Mastery. Perfect is being fully aware that from my slave's flawlessness, and flaws in rendering service, comes my own perfection. That the flaws are as much a service to me as the flawless. That my slave has the courage and determination to stay in service is 'perfect'.

From the Tao Te Ching #27:

Perfect travels leave no tracks.
Perfect words leave no doubts.
Perfect accounts need no counting.
Perfect gates close without locks
and so cannot be opened.
Perfect knots bind without rope
and so cannot be loosened.

A sage is always perfect in rescuing people
and therefore abondons no one,
always perfect in rescuing things
and so abandons nothing.

This is called the 'bequest of enlightenment',

so one who possesses this perfection is a teacher of those who don't, and those who don't possess it are the resource of one who does.

Without honoring the teacher
and loving the resource,
no amount of wisdom can prevent vast confusion.

This is called 'the essential mystery'.

Namaste,
Robi

Greetings from The Land of Enchantment (that would be New Mexico),

First, please allow me to introduce myself, though many of you are already friends. I am a straight, sadistic, Master-in-search-of-slave (Misos?) living in Albuquerque, New Mexico who self identifies as a sexagenarian in the hopes that some will think it is about being sexy. Master Jim has been my mentor for a couple of years now and he, slave marsha and I are Leather Family. They have been central to my exploration of M/s and remain a powerful source of love and support.

Second, let me thank all of you for sharing him and slave marsha this past weekend with the New Mexico leather community. He presented "Direction, Discipline & Service" with us and participated in a panel discussion of leather protocol and etiquette as a part of our inaugural “Spring Pandemonium” dungeon party/seminar weekend.

It was a wonderfully successful event and he and slave marsha + Ryan and Bill were a big part of our success. Thanks to you all and to the Dallas community for sharing them with us.

We hope to see them as well as some of you next year.

The topic I would like to offer forth for discussion (gawd, I hope this is the way this thing works. If it isn’t, just have the moderator delete my entire message I guess) is this:

I sometimes hear that falling in love can be the death knell for a M/s relationship and I would like to hear your opinions. I have tons of opinions of my own, but as the newbie, I would be much more interested in hearing what your thoughts might be.

Thank you for allowing me to jump on board here. I have read all of your posts since #1 on the 2nd of October by Alex. If this topic does not jump start us, Master Jim and slave marsha can confirm that I have plenty other questions. Don’t make me have to start down my list to get you involved again!

In leather,

Major
Albuquerque, New Mexico
NMTop@aol.com

"I sometimes hear that falling in love can be the death knell for a M/s relationship and I would like to hear your opinions."

Major, nothing like jumping in with both feet on your first post. LOL You, like me, like nothing better than to stir the pot, so to speak. And, you knew that I would take the bait when you posted this!!

Hear are my thoughts: I too have often heard this statement and many of our national and international leather elders speak on this subject, with the vast majority of them agreeing with the statement that 'a Master and slave falling in love will kill the M/s relationship/dynamic'. Of course, in order to discuss this topic, one would have to define what a Master/slave relationship is. For me, the manner in which Master Jim and slave marsha live T/their lives is the epitome of the M/s dynamic. Based on T/their example, I do not believe it is possible to live as T/they do and be in love with each other.

Let me explain further. For me, "being in love" means the individuals involved are "equal" in the relationship. In a M/s relationship, the Master and the slave are NOT equal. The Master is in charge at all times and the Owner of His/Her property, the slave. The slave is obedient to the wishes and desires of his/her Master. The slave's only purpose in life is to be of Service to his/her Master. It is my opinion, that no Master and slave who are in love with each other are capable of truly being the Owner or the owned. "In Love" will always get in the way. This does not mean that "love" is not involved in M/s relationships. In those that I respect,the Master and the slave love each other, they just aren't in love with each other . . . there really is a difference, at least for me. And, I believe, in the most successful M/s relationships, the slave worships the ground on which the Master walks.

Major, thanks for presenting the question. I have more thoughts but will close for now. I look forward to others' comments on the subject. At the end of the day, we all have to remember that each of our lives are our own private walk along the path and we each have to do what is right for ourselves and those who have chosen to walk the path with us. Ryan

Hello Major, Ryan and group :)

I first met my Master in preschool. We lost touch for
a while and began dating right after my highschool
graduation. From the start, the dynamic of our
relationship was D/s in nature and the s/m aspect
started our first weekend together.

As our relationship evolved, which might be very
unique in nature, he took more control as I gave up
more control. I have always believed that I was born
for him.

We will have been married for 5 years this May and
have been under our current Master/slave contract
since December of 2001.

It has worked for us very well so far. Master says, I
do. I'm not saying I'm the perfect slave, though. I
have slip-ups as I believe all people do and so does
Master. But, is that a result of our being in love
with each other or just being human? The dynamic of
our relationship is always as Master in charge. He
has the last say in *everything*. I do not believe
Master/slave relationships to be so very different
from a "Traditional Christian" marriage. The wife
honors, serves and obeys her Husband "until death do
us part." Throughout history, women were the property
of their fathers until given over to their husbands.
Then, they were their husband's property and took care
of the household just as a service slave of today.

I think it depends more on the people involved, what
they draw up for their relationship contract, and what
works for them. The history is definitely there,
though, for a wife as property marriage.

Blessings,
Karen

--- QT - Ryan <qtopic+23-Ja5N3xcn6nsA9@quicktopic.com>
wrote:
>
--QT------------------------------------------------------------- > Reply by email or visit
>
> http://www.quicktopic.com/23/H/Ja5N3xcn6nsA9/m106
>
----------------------------------------------------------------- >
> "I sometimes hear that falling in love can be the
> death knell
> for a M/s relationship and I would like to hear your
> opinions."
>
> Major, nothing like jumping in with both feet on
> your first
> post. LOL You, like me, like nothing better than
> to stir the
> pot, so to speak. And, you knew that I would take
> the bait when
> you posted this!!
>

*snipped*

>Of course, in order to
> discuss this
> topic, one would have to define what a Master/slave
> relationship
> is. For me, the manner in which Master Jim and
> slave marsha
> live T/their lives is the epitome of the M/s
> dynamic. Based on
> T/their example, I do not believe it is possible to
> live as
> T/they do and be in love with each other.
>
> Let me explain further. For me, "being in love"
> means the
> individuals involved are "equal" in the
> relationship. In a M/s
> relationship, the Master and the slave are NOT
> equal. The
> Master is in charge at all times and the Owner of
> His/Her
> property, the slave.

=====
"Where You go, i will go - and where You stay, i will stay. Your people will be my people and Your God, my God. And where You die, i will die - and there i will be buried."
"Our lives can change with every breath we take"

"I will go down with this ship ... I'm in love and always will be."
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

This is going to be a bit of a digression from the topic of love in an M/s relationship -- but i talked about that this past weekend, so i'm hoping Major will allow me a little leeway here! *smile*

"I do not believe
Master/slave relationships to be so very different
from a "Traditional Christian" marriage. The wife
honors, serves and obeys her Husband "until death do
us part." Throughout history, women were the property
of their fathers until given over to their husbands.
Then, they were their husband's property and took care
of the household just as a service slave of today."

In my experience -- which is, of course, only my experience -- analogizing Master/slave relationships to traditional "Christian" marriages isn't a very useful paradigm for many of us in service.

Those of us who are slaves *choose* the life we lead. That's very different from the historical situation of women in which women had little choice but to get married. To not be married almost always meant being a social outcast, and often also meant tremendous economic privation. There was little choice for those women but to enter into that life.

Analogizing M/s relationships to traditional marriages also does not acknowledge the many men -- both gay and straight -- who are slaves. And for many of us, men or women, our service is very different from the kind of tasks a "traditional" wife performed.

One advantage to structuring a M/s relationship along the lines of a traditional marriage is that it does give a framework for the relationship that is at least somewhat accepted by our society. After all, it's certainly much easier to introduce someone as "my wife" than it is to introduce her as "my slave!" But for many of us -- gay leathermen, leatherdykes, heterosexual men serving women, and me (a leatherdyke serving a gay leatherman), a M/s relationship structured along the lines of a traditional marriage isn't very workable.

Thanks to all for this discussion -- it is, as always, very interesting.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

 A relationship requires that at least two people _allow_ it to survive, but not only allow it to survive, but actively seek to nourish it, care for it and work on it. Love, of which there are many kinds, certainly can be part. Hell it can sneak up on you and become part, but when the people are laying the foundation of a d/s relationship it is not required that it be part of the foundation.

For many, I suppose, if love is not involved from the get go, then they seek elsewhere with elseperson or elselist. For those that seek a d/s relationship without love as being part of the foundation and who concentrate on other factors of compatibility and the needs of any intimate relationship, as well as the demands that a d/s relationship places, if they get all that in line and working, then quite often, love is a _by product_ As I have said before, elselist, to elseperson, as a subculture, we are still a product of our society and environment and thus still to some great degree reflect the values and attitudes that our society and culture does as a whole. Even as someone who does not go looking for love in all the wrong (or right places) if at all, as it pertains to my d/s relationships, I found the following article to be of interest.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030304020403/...gytoday.com/htdocs/ prod/PTOArticle/PTO-20030213-000002.asp

Having said all of that, while I do not think that romantic love has to be part of a successful d/s relationship, I do not think that d/s relationships preclude it in order to be successful either. In blunt honesty that is a sweeping generalization that would in my ever so humble opinion require a degree of seeming stupidity that in and of itself should preclude anyone from becoming a national or international leather teacher or icon. Sadly, it doesn't and we keep buying their books too.

Adrienne and my relationship was built on a service foundation and romantic love, as I mention above, is a by product of that relationship for _us_. If it came to choosing between one and the other, romantic love would hit the skids in a hurry. Romantic love to me, does not conquer much of anything, it’s the cherry on top, not the cake. But just because someone has an m/s relationship cake does not preclude them from having that cherry on top of it.

Justin Medlin

All Normal BDSM Disclaimers Apply
See Dealer for Details
Additional Restrictions May Apply
Prohibited Where Not Already Illegal
Your Mileage May Very Less If You Use Zemax

Dear F/friends,

I would say that it depends on the Master and slave in question. For example, in a Jack McGeorge, "bootcamp" style M/s relationship, love might be a tricky thing. But 2003 International Master and slave Bert and nadine Cutler will freely admit they are in love, as I freely admit I am in love with the lovely slave alaina girl. For us, being in love makes M/s both harder and better.

Just one man's opinion,

Warmly

MasterSteel

"I sometimes hear that falling in love can be the death knell for a M/s relationship and I would like to hear your opinions."
  
I would be the last one to say anything about M/s relationship, but from a service stand point it would be very difficult for me to be in love with someone that I was in service too. It would change the dynamic of the relationship for me.

I have tried years ago with my girlfriend to have such a relationship and we decided early on that it would not work for us. I would think it would be very difficult, but I'm sure that there are some that might be able to obtain it. I know for myself it wouldn't work.

I agree with a lot of what Ryan said, to me being in love and loving someone they are very different.

Major and all,

Your query has been one of my deeper thought provoking 'take apart' projects to date. To me, being loving, kind, gentle, firm etc is a very different energy than "being in love" and engages a very different chain of choices and re/actions.

Ryan wrote:
> For me, "being in love" means the individuals
> involved are "equal" in the relationship.

> In a M/s relationship, the Master and the slave are
> NOT equal.

Thank you Ryan! It is that simple for me. Either I'm being(unequal) Master, or I'm being(equal) the other. My foundation must be clear for me in order to "be" the very best that I able. (Master Jim and slave marsha wrote an excellent blogspot about "being".)

For me, being Master is ‘my’ core foundation, and in doing/enacting that mastery is the structure of my M/s, and in that I 'have' all that I need/want/desire, which in part is continued development for myself, and my slave. Being clear about this has had a positive resonating effect on my slave. Coming to understand and accept this at a very core level has helped me clear debris from my(our) pathway.

Questions I'd like to pose at this time are: when two persons come to their M/s from different motivational directions, can it work? Does this impact whether stability within the dynamic is felt by both, or either party? If so, how so?

I have enjoyed reading others thoughts here. Thank you for taking the time to share your personal journey.

Namaste,
Robi

  i guess it all depends on how one defines "in love". i'm not sure if i can do that. What is the difference between "in love" and love or complete dedication to a relationship? In love may mean alot of different things to many people, but for me, i agree with Ryan that it implies some equality or maybe it's got romantic features in there too. i've seen relationships (D/s or M/s) where the two describe themselves as partners. i'm not sure how they maintain the dynamic.
   For me, i think being "in love" would cause trouble because maybe i would start to expect different responses from the Master or Sir or Ma'am because there would be different motivations or goals, maybe not conscious or obvious, but enough to affect the dynamic of the relationship. Also, the spirit in which service is given may be affected and that means everything. If a boy, girl, submissive or slave is providing service because they are "in love", rather than because they are being obedient and dedicated, the actions may be the same but the spirit of the actions is different. i think that would make alot of difference. But that's just my opinion. But people have feelings, so rather than look at it as a "death knell", i would hope that it could be worked out in a way that would preserve the integrity of the relationship.
It's an interesting topic. Thanks to all who share.

As I have mentioned before, I am in love with my slave. On occasion, folks have raised the question "If you wanted to give an order your slave would hate, how could you if you love your slave?"

The answer is simple. I love her enough to let her be what she is - a slave

I love me enough to let me be who I am, her Master

and I love her enough to give the order, even if she doesnt like it. I am into ethical ownership, so no order I give will intentionally harm her. she knows that too. So we trust my orders even when she (or I) dont like them so much.

also I think that a M/s relationship is a sort of partnership, just not an equal one. (we may have to bow to slave marsha's professional knowledge as to what a "partnership" is..)

Just one Man's opinion
MasterSteel

Good morning to all:
 
First off, i want to thank Major for asking a question i have heard debated over the past 5 years. It is a question at times i pondered about until i met Sir Tim. Before our relationship, i was not "in love" with those i was in service to. i was perfectly satisfied with our type of relationship and being "in love" was not included. In fact, both relationships involved other collared submissives and/or a wife at that time. my ability to serve, or my passion to serve, was not influenced by the absence of love between us.

Now, does that mean there was an absence of love in the relationship? i loved serving, and i loved the other submissives as a sister would love a sister. We bonded deeply with each other, and we embraced and nurtured our relationship with each other. However, i was not "in love" with anyone within the relationship.

Having said that... Presently, Sir Tim and i have been in a D/s relationship for over 2 years. We have lived together now for over a year. We started out getting to know each other quite well before considering entering into a D/s foundation type relationship. After months of lengthy discussion and after identifying each of our own needs/wants as well as what each of us were willing to invest in the relationship, it became very clear that we were a very good match for each other.

After 8 months into our relationship, he claimed me as his submissive and after 6 more months he collared me. However, from day 1 my desire and passion to serve him was always present. i do not serve him because i love him, i serve him because it is my passion to serve.

Being in love with each other is a very intimate part of our relationship, but the foundation of it is based strictly on our D/s agreement. He expects my obedience, and he has total authority over our relationship and me. He expects me to make wise decisions regarding my family, career, finances, and of the time i spend to do these things.

His authority to make the final decisions on everything is always respected. All of my time, is his time. Although i am available to him at anytime, he allows me to spend time on those areas of my life that i am obligated to take care of. He places a priority and a high expectation of me to fulfill my family and career obligations.

When i fall short of his expectations, his authority to address my shortcomings can be expected. These times happen within any type of relationship. In my opinion, being in a M/s or D/s type relationship i think helps us to work through any issue much easier. However, if i were to "willfully disobey" his directive to be obedient to him, the agreement between us would be broken. It would change the dynamics of our relationship and would require our immediate attention and possibly end the relationship as we know it.

All the love between us (or absence of love as in my past service based relationships) does not change the dynamics in the foundation of our relationship. Love was not an element in our decision.

Again, the level of each relationship is often determined by what each person is willing to invest into it, and seeks to receive out of it. This is what we first identified before agreeing to be in this type of a relationship together. We accept the responsibility that comes with this type of relationship. We do not allow love to pollute or dilute our dynamics.

i love Sir Tim with all my heart. He is my Master, my lover, and my best friend. Above all, he is my Master.
 
Sir Tim's marla

Edited by author 04-01-2004 12:22 PM
i too would like to thank Major for asking the question concerning being inlove in an M/s relationship.
Hi, i'm vic, i am a female slave collared to Master Don, we live in Amarillo, Texas and this is a topic very alive in our M/s relationship presently. We live a 24/7 M/s relationship with two teenagers in the home. This is another topic i'm sure has or will be discussed but i was just giving a little background on 'us'.
Without saying 'too' much, as ordered, i have to say this, being in love 'has' effected our M/s relationship. It is something that we are working on daily because we both want this to work and neither are willing to give up this lifestyle nor give up on being in love, however, He finds it extremely difficult at times to punish, extreme scene, or give certain orders. Personally, i think its a trust issue. We have known each other for a few years, but the 24/7 part, well, lets just say we're still at the honeymoon stage. i want and need the structure, the rituals, the complete M/s relationship. He does as well, but, and i quote Master Don, "it's harder when I love you so much." i'm understanding of this, but what i want to know is how do we get past it? Our own answer to that question is to just keep working on it as we go and continue to communicate.
Don't get me wrong, Master expects alot out of me, He expects me to be obedient and submissive and to serve Him and i want to serve Him in that way, i desire to anticipate His every need and i cringe when i realize He's taking off His own boots. We 'have' an M/s relationship, we are just working out the kinks i suppose.
To quote myself in a journal writing, "sometimes love just isn't enough". (speaking of wanting and needing more structure) He has a hard time punishing me, physcially or mentally (i thinks its the batting eyelash thing.. lol.. just kidding) i think that all relationships are different, we all have our own ways and our own desires and our own kinks etc. etc. etc. But we are all "edgeliving" in our own special ways. i value everyones opinions, even those i disagree with because i am continuously learning and craving to learn more and more about the dynamics that make each M/s relationship different as well as the same.

Thank you all for sharing and thanks marsha for sending me the link to this site.

vicki aka subvic
owned and operated by Master Don aka Texmstr

Just a quick happy birthday note to miss marsha! Hope this day finds you happy and well, and that you have many, many more of the same.

Many thanks to all of you who jumped in so eagerly to address the issue of whether or not being "in love" is the death knell of a M/s relationship.

While the pros and cons were eloquently represented, I'd like to add my two cents before the topic disappears over the horizon.

It appears to me that "I made the mistake of falling in love with my slave and it ended the relationship" is no more than a palatable way of saying, "I was not able to be the Master that I wanted to be and that my slave deserved.
I did not have the strength that it took to carry on, so the M/s ended."

Major

PS subvic do you and or Texmstr ever get over Albuquerque way? I'd love to share a cuppa coffee in the Land of Enchantment with you sometime if you do.

I disagree with Major’s conclusion that the mistake of falling in love with a slave is a sign that the Master did not have the strength to carry on. It is quite possible that the person who the Master fell in love with was not a slave at all, but rather much better suited to be the Master’s partner. It is also possible that the Master who falls in love, particularly repeatedly, is not, in fact, a Master. Not being a master is neither good nor bad, it just is a matter of fact and does not necessarily translate into a lack of strength. Rather it means a person was trying to be something they are not.

Now does a person who falls in love with one who is in service suggest that the “master” is not a master? Not at all. I hear many say that they must avoid falling in love with their slave, when, falling in love may be a necessary part of the journey. In other words, two people who come together as master and slave may find that falling in love is a natural part of the journey. Once that happens the decision must be made whether to continue on the M/s path and attempt to put romantic love behind them. If this can be done, then the act of falling in love does not end the relationship, but makes it stronger.

In leather,

Master Jim

Major Sir, we don't get to Albuquerque too often, however i have a sweet submissive friend that lives there with her sweet Master, very nice ppl. feel free to email me and i'll be happy to share your email address with them if you'd like. subvic61389@yahoo.com

I wholeheartedly agree with Master Jim's and slave marsha's assertion that slaves are people called to a particular level of service, not a set of personality traits.

I used to belong to a club loosely organized around SM. I stopped going when it became clear that, as a boy without a Top/Daddy/Master, some of the members felt I was fair game to provide service to them whenever they felt like it. They wanted service without the responsibility of being Tops. After several instances of this, I simply quit going and eventually left the scene.

It amazed me that people believed that I was a walking set of service skills they could draw upon at will, and that if I balked in any way at serving them, I was somehow bad and wrong.

I saw that happen many times to unattached bottoms, submissives and slaves. During a period when I held some leadership roles, I found that I could lead effectively, as long as the others didn't identify as Tops.

I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but, unless someone has specifically been placed at your disposal, they have no obligation whatsoever to serve you, pander to your ego, or take a back seat because you believe their abilities are at odds with your perceptions of how they "should" be.

I should probably add that, although I am a switch, I was known in that community as a bottom/boy/slave/submissive. I could travel to other cities and Top, but people simply wouldn't credit it there. <shrug> Whatev. Now I function privately, when at all.

   It would make sense to me that if a slave has leadership talents, or any other kind of talent for that matter, that it would be cultivated and used as part of one's service. Slaves and boys that i know are always trying to expand and improve on talents and qualitites that serve their Masters, not supressing the ones they have. It's kind of like if you owned the fastest horse, and then made it run slow all the time. Doesn't make sense.
  A group of us boys, got into a discussion about goals in relationships between Daddies/Masters and boys and we thought that a good dynamic was one in which the boy was growing towards his best potential in service to his Master/Daddy rather than trying to shrink and be less than what he could be. As long as it's service and not ego fuelling the growth.
   And i also have seen what Michael is talking about when Dominants (Masters,Daddies, Mistresses etc) think that all boys (slaves) should serve them. It's hard to know what to do in situations like that. Especially if you don't want to come across looking like a rude or disrespectful boy. If you are owned or in service, it is easy because you can say that You serve only one Master. But if not, it's hard, especially if you want to be in service. Because you want to look like a good boy so that you might find someone who is interested in your service, but you don't want to be everybody's boy. It can be frustrating.
   I guess the problem is with those that assume. After all, i don't assume that just because a car is sitting there with it's motor running and no one seems to own it, that i can just jump in a drive around. That's essentially what those Dominants are doing.

And i should probably add that most Dominants that i know don't assume stuff like that and are appropriate with expectations of boys.
with respect,
alex

alex, I liked your car analogy very much, and think it is very descriptive situation. My personal experience is that I have less trouble with those who consider themselves Old Leather than New. The protocol is just different.

Tal, and greetings...

I am looking for SPECIFIC protocols that Others use... ***grin***... the whoooooole enchilada... all of em... if You don't mind, share what You do... either here or in My email, temji@yahoo.com

I wish You well,

Bear

Dear Bear,

I use a mixture of Gorean protocol - mostly its beautiful slave postions (which you, I presume, already know about), and the Butchmann's tradition protocols, written by SlaveMaster, which are near and dear to many here.

That protocol can be viewed at:

http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academy/protocol/index.html

a related story... At the first event I went to where I got to really meet the Master Jim and the lovely slave marsha, she gave me a Butchmann's present, which I was very honored to accept. I didnt know that she knew I was Butchmann's, and that she had done that really touched me...

Warmly,
MasterSteel

PS... is slave marsha attending the Butchmann's all female event this weekend? If so she will finally get to see my girl up close and without... well, she knows <insert evil grin here...>

While i very much appreciate Master Steel's kind words regarding the first time he and i met, i must make one correction.

i do not perform the "Butchmann's present," nor do i follow the Butchmann's protocols. All of my greetings are those Master Jim developed for me, and are in accordance with His protocols.

i regret that will not be able to see Master Steel's girl this weekend. i will not be attending the Butchmann's all female event as i am no longer on the Butchmann's faculty. However, i certainly hope to see her in the future!

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

Well....trapdoors.
i firmly believe that we as slaves have
the talent to send ourselves off on these
trips the Lady calls spinning. i remember
one time i went spinning thinking i was no
good at what i was doing or silly things
like why do i do this anyway? Most of the
time the Lady very calmy reminds me why &
all is better....but this one time i truely
needed Her to do what She did, a Harsh slap
right across the face, dropping me to my
knees and the place i needed to be to regroup
& reground myself! i dont know what has been
happening with you, slave marsha, but i know
self-doubt and life get in the way sometimes.
All we can do is trust the decision we made
to give all to that Owner, beleive & be brave!
monica property of Lady Sharrin

Zen and the Art of slave Maintenance: On the other hand, the similarity between maintaining both lies in the Zen of it all. If you have read the book “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” by Robert Pirsig, you may already understand that last statement – but let me explain. Others become one with the slave and ultimately can sense when problems arise and adjustments need to be made. I believe that becoming one with the person or persons you own, is an essential part of a long-term Master/slave relationship. Arriving at this Zen-like state of oneness does not provide anyone with general or specific instructions on how to fix a slave, but it will help you in identifying problems and will alert you when an interval of slave maintenance is needed. Then, as always, it is up to you to decide what needs to be done and what service needs to be performed. :: Saturday, May 15, 2004 :: :: Edgeliving: Master Jim and slave marsha :: In leather, Master Jim

My dream is that Master Jim and i, as His man in Service, will have a bond that continues to strengthen and grow as His bond has grown with slave marsha. i am a most fortunate man to be allowed the honor and privilege of being in Service to such an Illumined Master and to be allowed to sit at His feet. i do not say that lightly; however, it is the truth of how i feel. i am also honored that He has gifted me with the book He quotes in this blog posting. My favorite quote from the book is: “The truth knocks on the door and you say, ‘Go away, I’m looking for the truth’ and so it goes away.” And, i am finding the Truth in new and exciting ways.

In Leather, i am,
ryan
man in Service to Master Jim

I just wanted to say thanks to Master Jim for not nailing the the trapdoor shut. I know from personal expierence that sometimes one has to fall through the trapdoor to get to the next life lesson.

And thanks to slave marsha for reminding me that slaves are still human.

Tyler

Tyler,

slaves are most definitely human! And much to Master Jim's chagrin at times, i am *extremely* human.

You know, someone said the following to me this past weekend: "How does it feel for everyone to think you're perfect?" Let me tell you... it doesn't feel good. First of all, it's *way* too much pressure! *laughing* But more importantly, it isn't true...i make plenty of mistakes, some of them really big ones. i don't want any slave out there, or any person who thinks they might have a slave heart to think perfection is a requirement for serving as as slave. It isn't. What *is* a requirement is the deep desire and drive to keep striving toward perfection in our slavery, even though we know we'll never get there, at least not in this life.

It's great to see you here on the board -- thanks so much for reading!

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

To everyone who has posted here, emailed or called following my trapdoor post...

Thank you. Your words and thoughts have helped tremendously. i can't say that i've completely gotten my feet back under me, but Master Jim is working with me and slowly, i'm climbing out.

Onward, up the mountain, inch by inch.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

QT - marsha m wrote:

> --QT-------------------------------------------------------------
> Reply by email or visit
> http://www.quicktopic.com/23/H/Ja5N3xcn6nsA9/m132
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Tyler,
>
>
>
> slaves are most definitely human! And much to Master Jim's
> chagrin at times, i am *extremely* human.
>
>
>
> You know, someone said the following to me this past weekend:
> "How does it feel for everyone to think you're perfect?" Let me
> tell you... it doesn't feel good. First of all, it's *way* too
> much pressure! *laughing* But more importantly, it isn't
> true...i make plenty of mistakes, some of them really big ones.
> i don't want any slave out there, or any person who thinks they
> might have a slave heart to think perfection is a requirement
> for serving as as slave. It isn't. What *is* a requirement is
> the deep desire and drive to keep striving toward perfection in
> our slavery, even though we know we'll never get there, at least
> not in this life.

personally, i don't strive for perfection. i strive for excellence. perfection, to me, has too much connotation of "done, complete,
finished" (think of 'past perfect' tense in grammar). as far as i'm concerned, i won't be perfect until i'm dead.

on the other hand, there are times when i achieve excellence in service. and that, i can live with. that, i can strive for! and that, my Signore prefers it that way. as he put it, if i have nothing left to be
improved, he would lose the enjoyment of correcting me occasionally. ;-)
babalon

Marsha,
              Having gotten to watch your session a bit last Saturday night at 1763, I was curious about some things. Towards the end of the session, you were inhaling deeply, exhaling audibly, hands clinched into fists, shoulder rolled forward, head down, and verbally encouraging the top to continue with what appeared to be a heavy, thuddy flail. I could hear things like, “Come on!”, “Fuck! Bring it!” etc. Watching and listening to you I remembered that you have said you’re not much of a masochist and that you don’t enjoy pain per se. Obviously with the needles and strings that were attached to the needles on one end and to the bondage gazebo posts of the others, both on your front and backside you were not going very far forwards or backwards. At any rate my question is, were you encouraging the top because it was good ole fashioned SM fun, because it was massage like with the heavy flail or because it was something akin to a cleansing experience for you? Or none of the above? My best to you and Master Jim
 
Justin Medlin

Sir, (response to Justin Medlin's message)

You're absolutely correct that i do not identify myself as being much of a masochist. The work Lisa did with me last Saturday night at 1763 was most definitely not *fun* for me. Nor did it feel like a massage. Your final option is, i think, the right one -- it was a cleansing experience for me. It allowed me to release some anger and frustration and tension that absolutely needed to come out.

And while we're on the subject, i'll take a diversion from posting about M/s here to talk a little about that scene. i know that the scene was uncomfortable for some (many?) of the people in attendance at the dungeon that night. boy alex, who was assisting with the scene, was apparently approached a number of times by a number of people who were concerned for my safety. Oddly enough, though, no one ever came to me about it.

We have a real dilemma in our community. We want to protect people -- especially new people in the community -- from harm and from getting themselves into situations they aren't prepared for. We are a growing community, and we don't always know everyone we see working in a dungeon. So what sometimes happens is that in our desire to protect the less experienced members of our community, we may infringe on the ability of the more experienced members of the community to practice heavier SM in a public dungeon.

The vast majority of people in the dungeon that night didn't know me. They didn't know that i earned -- and i mean *earned* -- the right to flag "black right" as a heavy SM bottom. They didn't know that i have around 10 years of SM experience. They didn't know that i am quite accustomed to being flogged without leaning against a cross. They didn't know that Lisa and i are family and have worked together in the dungeon many times and in fact, have done a similar scene in the past. They didn't know that the scene they were watching was far from the hardest SM i've ever experienced.

They were concerned. But the problem was, the only thing they knew to do, the only thing that seemed right to them, was to keep interjecting into the scene. i watched (and heard) people approach boy alex over and over, telling him what to do, commenting on my condition, asking if he had ever played with us before. It got to the point that rather than have the dungeon monitor stop the scene, Lisa and i agreed to end it, because we were feeling so uncomfortable.

i don't know how we deal with this issue in our community. i certainly don't want dangerous tops in dungeons. (God knows i don't -- Master Jim and i, along with a number of others (including ryan), are opening a new dungeon in Dallas, and i certainly don't want people to be hurt in a bad way there.) But we all do SM at different levels, and just because a scene looks "dangerous" to one person doesn't mean it should and must be stopped.

i'm afraid the outcome is going to be that fewer and fewer people who practice heavy SM will be willing to work in public dungeons. And that's too bad, because i *like* being worked in public.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

babalon,

Thanks for offering your perspective -- and by the way, i think the title "Signore" is a really great alternative to some of the more commonly used titles in the community.

Thanks for being a part of the discussion.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

Edited by author 06-17-2004 03:20 PM
Marsha,
              What you describe is one of the reasons that if I am going to engage in heavy SM in public I do so late in the evening. Less and less heavy SM (granted by my standard) is seen today in public spaces. The people who do engage in a heavy manner have become tired of the things that you describe…..and worse. Our community drive for safety has come at the cost of people being able to see heavier forms of SM being done in public, which removes educational opportunities for those who would expend the time and energy to talk to either the top or the bottom or both and thus removes a layer of safety to those who do wish to engage in these forms of play….and will. –End Rant-

I am surprised somewhat that people felt you were in any danger. From where I stood it simply appeared to be a hot scene, not overly heavy and that both you and Lisa were both fully in control of yourselves. You mention that you have earned the right to flag black/right and I am sure I agree. I suppose that most, if not all on this board know what you mean, but out and about the ability to read flagging signs seems to be waning as well. I have been asked often what the black handkerchief in my back left pocket was and why I wore my keys on the left when I am obviously right handed.

Common sense seems to be anything but common anymore. If anyone was really concerned about your scene it would seem that they would have found one of the club owners or event staff to ask, NOT the person assisting you and Lisa, but again, that’s just me. The saddest part to me of your commentary is that not one person who purported to be concerned about your safety came and asked you or Lisa anything directly when it was over. Stepping into your scene and interrupting it, though I doubt any one considered their concern being expressed to boy alex as, “interrupting”, and bringing it to a shorter end than would have occurred rarely seems to cross peoples mind. At any rate it was a pleasure to watch you bottom to Lisa and I hope to be in a situation again sometime where I can observe again. I need to go pack my stuff I have a private scene tonight involving canes, welts, single tails and scalpels and it certainly will not be in public.

My best to you and Master Jim,

Justin Medlin

Master Jim and marsha:

The one weekend I had the opportunity to work with Master Jim, I was told later that people got up and left the dungeon. I heard over and over again about "this really heavy scene that happened", which turned out to be a punching scene he did with me. I was certainly aware that at least 30 people were watching avidly (Master Jim is fortunately someone who is not upset by very vocal bottoms). Like slave marsha's experience with Lisa, this was not the heaviest scene I have ever done, but it seems to have been heavier than what most people are able to deal with. And I think that was a couple of years ago. The reactions I had about that weekend (there was also a marvelous scene with some needles and a staple gun) were a large part of what convinced me that I was tired of playing publicly and dealing with this sort of thing.

I would suggest in other times that some nights or spaces be set aside for "heavy" work, but that of course depends on the people involved, and would be sure to encourage all sorts of stupid behavior by people who want to be thought of as heavy but don't have the skills or experience for it. That leaves me with the idea that Justin is perhaps right in holding off until the late evening, or simply keeping the heavier activities to private parties.

Edited by author 06-17-2004 11:00 PM
Punching scenes can be very hot. Especially male on male, it’s primal and it feeds on itself. Staple guns, also very cool. Stapling someone’s butt cheeks together then spraying them with alcohol while they are blindfolded and then using a violet want to and the hand contact pad taped to the back so that when your hard cock came in close enough contact, their ass exploded has always been a fun idea to me as well. As a male are you any closer to being a god than with purple lightening shooting out of the head of your cock and making someone’s ass explode in flames? I digress.

I fully understand how people can react to vocal bottoms….and tears. Adrienne cries and screams and hollers a lot and when people see her and these big tears streaming down her face out of those pretty hazel eyes, especially if she is bleeding and I am smiling laughing or smirking, they tend to take a dim view of me. They watch and like Marsha experienced, rarely do they ask any questions when it’s over. Playing late has also had the added benefit of allowing the dungeon monitors watch me, even after they have been told by the staff, “their ok, don’t interrupt, we know them” and get used to seeing some types of things. I remember cutting Adrienne one night at the end of a scene and just before beginning to feed hearing one of the people that I knew from the staff to tell the dungeon monitor, “I wouldn’t go there if I were you….they are blood bonded and he is getting ready to prove it to you”.

It’s sort of funny, heavy SM has its own energy I think and it’s also very cathartic for both the top and the bottom, though that is not usually a goal, but an added side benefit. We go on and on and on about education and all of that, but in our public play spaces we have continued to lower the bar to the point that if we are lucky, sometimes we skin our shins on it. Its been seemingly like the NCSF/Barbara Nikte lawsuit against John Ashcroft that allows the most extreme and conservative views to dictate what is acceptable or not. We have done the same thing in our public play spaces.

Justin Medlin

Concerning.........."To everyone who has posted here, emailed or called following my trapdoor post..."

Forgive me, but I cannot find the much mentioned "trapdoor post" Can someone help me?

Sir (to Major),

The "trapdoor posts" are at the Edgeliving website (edgeliving.blogspot.com). my post about it is dated June 3 and Master Jim's is dated June 9.

It's good to see you here!

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

Well, there you have it. The site I am reading has the following posts:
#128.........04-23-2004 10:04 AM ET (from Marsha M* about presenting) #129.........06-08-2004 5:58 PM ET (from Monica)
#130.........06-08-2004 6:30 PM ET (from Ryan on Zen)
#131.........06-16-2004 1:04AM ET (from Tyler mentioning trapdoors)
Nothing on June 3 or 6.

 I had not realized that there were two boards. Guess I've gotta get clear which message board I'm on and which one I should be on. Any recommendations?
Major

Ah Ha! So the "Edgeliving - Quick Topic bulletin board" and

Thank you slave marsha for pointing out the differing venues I have been blindly stumbling over, around, under and through.

So now I see that the "Quicktopic Bulletin Board" and
"Edgeliving.blogspot.com" are two different animals! Wow. This must have been apparent to everyone else, but is astounding news to me.

I think I get it now tho.

Can you recommend one or the other?

Major

"There comes a time when tolerance becomes complicity." MLK

Sir (to Major),

When Master Jim and i began writing on the "Edgeliving" website, we started receiving a fair number of emails from people who wanted to discuss the issues we raised. To encourage that discussion, Master Jim had me create this discussion list, linked to the Edgeliving web site. (If you go to the Edgeliving web site and look at the bottom of the left hand column of links, you'll see one called "Discuss Edgeliving" that links directly here.) i don't know that i can recommend one forum over the other -- read the Edgeliving site if you'd like to know what issues in Master/slavery Master Jim and i are thinking about, and come here to discuss M/s issues, either the ones on the Edgeliving site or anything else that comes to mind!

Either way, thanks for contributing.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

Dear Friends,

alaina and I have decided that to keep the beautiful life that she and I have together would like to explore the possibilities of a poly relationship...

However we have no experience in these things... We also have no interest in ruining what we have in the pursuit of this new twist...

We arent sure how to look for another, or if we did find someone suitable, how we would go about deciding if they were suitable...

Any insight on what we could/should/might do from here would be appreciated

Thank you

MasterSteel

A good place to start would be "The Ethical Slut" by Liszt and Easton.

I have been lurking since the inception of this board and have enjoyed the insights and experience posted. Thank you all for sharing and I guess it's my turn to try to contribute.

Like MasterSteel, I have begun to search for another slave to join boy in service. The only experience I have had with poly relationships did not involve live-in service. Some of the poly relationships boy has survived were less than ethical. However, we have planned from the beginning to enlarge the household, as we are both polyamorous and couldn't imagine a monogamous relationship. After two years together, I feel that my ownership is well-grounded and that there are many benefits to adding a third person at this time.

The only advice I would offer at the beginning of the search is to spend some time formulating exactly what you are seeking, and then be open to what comes your way. It is important to identify core needs. Basic personality traits (are they submissive or dominant?), position in the household (service or an integrated part of your relationship?), hierarchy for the household (same, second to, or under the direction of alaina?), gender and sexual orientation/preference, type of use (domestic, sexual, SM, or some combination), live-in or not?

As you begin the process of meeting potential slaves, you'll see which ones are more and less important. I have already found that ruling out straight males might have been a mistake and am now corresponding with one that may be what we are seeking. Most importantly, listen to signals you receive from deep within yourself and whatever higher power you follow. It won't steer you wrong.

As for what to do to make the relationship work once someone is added, I'll be waiting to read that advice myself.

walk in peace & love,
M. D'Marie

Greetings All,

I'm back from IML, finished with Albuquerque Pride and heading into Santa Fe Pride this weekend. After that it is clear sailing until Thunder in Denver on my birthday weekend (perhaps with a stopover in Dallas for the "Grand Opening of the DCAL facility there). I hope to see some of you there and put some more faces to these names.

Lemme tell ya, this "title" thing has been a hoot! I hope we can share some "war stories" over a cuppa coffee or a glass o' wine.

Now for Master Steel's poly question. M.D'Marie had a more insightful and complete list of suggestions than I could have developed. In summary my thoughts would be, "Be careful what you ask for, because you will likely get it." You are thoughtful as well as delightful people and I suspect there will be a bevy of folks lining up for interviews.

In addition to "The Ethical Slut", another resource about poly is, "Polyamory. The New Love Without Limits" by Dr. Deborah Anapol (www.lovewithoutlimits.com). She's vanilla, but her books and workshops are considered to be texts on how poly works. I suspect her site will be a good starting place for you.

The only thing I would emphasize is that clarity from the get-go between and from the two of you will be very important. It might be helpful, for instance, to have several suggestions ready for potential candidates concerning typical roles &/or duties that each of you might expect.

My "interviews" often include questions like, "What do you expect to get from this relationship?" and "What do you expect to be able to contribute to this relationship?" This encourages everyone to get to their own (perhaps unspoken or unacknowledged) expectations.

Being clear between the two of you concerning your expectations will make it ever so much easier to be clear with your applicants.

Now for the down to earth, positively from the heart and somewhat risky feeling bottom line.......If you would be interested in a poly relationship with a Dominant, straight, sadistic Master-In-Search-of-slave, man from Albuquerque, I would love to drive over to talk with either or both of you about the possibilities. Dunno how that might look, but it would be great fun to talk about, huh?

Or perhaps Thunder would be a place to connect whether the above description fits your needs or not.

In any case, I hope so see some of you at "Thunder" next month. I'll be doing the Opening Meditation as well as a Sunday Service.

Major
Albuquerque New Mexico

POLY......MUST HAVES......HONESTY & CLEAR COMMUNICATION!

Sorry....guess i had the caps lock on...lol
but i still feel those are the 2 BIGGIES!

I agree with the discuss, talk, discuss, talk, and discuss some more theory. I just went through this with my slave who has and will be my primary forever.
We did talk about it, in fact, for 3 years. We even had a couple weeks with a boi we were interested in but didnt quite fit the bill. No issues at that time.
Well, I talked with a boi, she talked with him, it all seemed like a go and it went. Was good for a few weeks, until she got upset. She was jealous. She had a hard time with any intimacy in the bedroom. she knew that she still belonged to me, and meant as much if not more than ever. she just wasnt interested in sharing any of my attention. It was wickedly difficult and is still not resolved. And there is no way to explain all the different levels of it nor do I wish to.
My suggestion is, though, take it even slower than you ever thought possible. I know several poly relationships that work, it just takes time.

DaddiJ

i have read so much about Poly issues, the pros and cons, the success stories and the disasters. i have also experienced all of the above. my first poly type relationship i was in a collar of concideration. Ya know, sometimes, the thought is right, the feel is right, the experience is right, the people involved are right, but then reality knocks. Our reality was, two households, two sets of kids, that sort of thing. It was truly difficult when we came to the conclusion that it wasn't going to work, it was heartbreaking, except for the fact that we remained and still remain the best of friends. Thank goodness, because it doesnt always turn out that way when a relationship ends.
But my experience with this poly relationship didnt leave us believing that poly doesnt work. So, i found myself collared in a poly relations for a second time, but still with two households, etc. etc. Again, it didnt work out, but this second go round had a different ending. It was definetly because of jealousy and envy on both parts, myself and the sister-slave. i'm not going to set blame on just one party, i was to blame as well. However, it just so happened that after the fact, the sister-slave wasn't as up for poly as she was in the beginning. Ya know what, thats okay, as long as your honest about it.
So, one day, when you find yourself discussing how cool poly would be, be honest with yourselfs. Discuss scenerios, Say you have all gone to bed for the night and suddenly you hear moaning, Do you smile and listen and fall asleep with a big grin on your face? Do you move as far to the edge of the bed giving them all the room they may need? Do you slip out of bed and go pout in the next room? Do you think to yourself, hey i wanna play too and just join in the fun? (because you are a family ya know)
i guess, like everyone else, i'd definetly say, honesty and alot of communication are an absolute if your concidering poly.
*side note: i'm collared to my Master i experienced my second poly ordeal with now, however, we discussed it in great depth and no longer wish to have a poly household, but we both still feel that poly can work for others and have great admoration and respect for those that make it work.

While I believe poly is theoretically possible, I have come to understand that it doesn't work for me. One of my ex-lovers said there are two types of people who enter poly: those who like to be shared and those who like sharing. I'm apparently one of those who likes to be shared. I eventually gave poly up because I never found anyone who did it like they told me they did. In my last poly relationship, one of my deal-breakers was being pushed out the door so she could have a date with someone else. The day she said, "Well, you've done it before" and I replied "Not to my knowledge," it was over.

i have been reading with interest the posts related to polyamory. my partner and i actually have presented on this topic at a few leather events and i know individuals in long-term poly triad relationships. Let me first talk about those relationships. i am a friend with 3 guys who have been in a triad for almost 25 years. The two oldest guys were together for 10 years before they added the third. At first the third did not fit in until they realized they needed to dissolve the relationship the first 2 had and make a new relationship for the 3 of them. To do so, they had a Triad Holy Union and that relationship is alive and well after 22 years. For them “polyamory” means the ability to be in love with more than one person at a time. And, also for them, it is a closed relationship of the 3 of them.

The other triad i know has been together for over 10 years. It is a husband and wife who once their children were raised, the husband told his wife that he was gay, but that he still loved her and what could they do. They agreed to work it out, with him having boyfriends and her also having boyfriends. About 10 years ago, they met a man who they both love and he has been their equal partner since then. However, their relationship is very open and they each have their own private and/or shared sex partners. Yet, they each come home to each other and their king-sized bed. And, as with the first couple i described, they are each in love with each other. Their rules are: safe sex, honest communication, and absolutely no jealousy allowed.

As with many concepts about relationships, they are about as many definitions for them as they are people in them. i personally believe that it is possible for me to be in love with more that one person at a time. But i also realize there is a difference between being in a poly relationship of that type and being in an open relationship. i feel it is very important to understand and respect the differences. My partner and i in the past have both been in love with another man; and, at the same time, we have enjoyed our open relationship. To be very plain, there is a vast difference, at least for me, between a poly “in love” relationship and having a couple of great fuck buddies. Regardless of whether it is a poly relationship, an open relationship, or both, my partner and i subscribed to what we learned from the second triad i described: safe sex, honest communication, and no jealousy.

And, now we add the dimension of those who are Served and those of us in Service.

In Leather, i am,
ryan
man in Service to Master Jim

i personally have always wanted a poly relationship,(leather family).i did get a taste of it for a short time and could not handle it.i believe the Dominant has to be very careful for many reasons.i had no choice but to end my relationship with my Dominant because i felt i was not being treated as i were before the other person came into the relationship.
   i have had a very hard time dealing with this because i know what my relationship was like before the other person came into it and i have felt for a long time that i must of not been good enough.This Dominant let me go so easily.
   i'm not sure that i could ever be in that type relationship again.As a matter of fact that is the first thing i asked my Master before i ever met Him"are You planning on bringing others in the relationship" i knew if He said yes this would not work for me.
  For the submissives/slaves reading these posts please be careful to think about how you would feel in this situation,it seems nice to have that other slave to lean on when times get rough,but you also have to think about your place with Your Dominant.
  my best to all

ryan, I think the "no jealousy" ideal is a great one -- and I don't honestly believe it is attainable on a consistent basis. For me to choose an additional partner (or for my partners to have done so), there must be something offered that the existing partner cannot, or cannot offer as well, which can often lead to jealousy. I've certainly heard of jealousy issues arising in some of the best poly relationships I've seen. I believe that jealousy will happen, but that what matters is what you do with those feelings.

Thanks to everyone for the great discussion on polyamory!

As you might expect, Master Jim has a word or two on the topic, which He's posted at the website (edgeliving.blogspot.com).

And as you might expect, He's got to come up with something different...*laughing*

Thank you all indeed.

I think that although romantic love is indeed part of the foundation of my Master slave relationship with alaina, I have found from discussions in my MAsT group, which D'Marie's family takes part in that each relationship in the whole world is different. Therefore I dont know if love, or romatic love, or what, will be involved in my other relationships of my poly explorations.... As for Major's very generous offer, I am not sure how that would work, as I am generally seeking folks more submissive, or slaves and probably generally more feminine. However, I try not to rule anything out... I think that any discussion in that direction should be off this board... my email is

rayadj67@hotmail.com

See y'all at Thunder I hope, already looking forward to Master Jim and slave marsha's presentations...

Warmly

MasterSteel

slave marsha............I took a look at "edgeliving.blogspot.com" and could not find anything new. Is Master Jim's piece up already and I am still lost in my efforts to find it?...........and I was just starting to think I had this system figured out! Major

Major, it's possible that you or your browser are inadvertantly putting "www" before the name of the site. If you enter "http://edgeliving.blogspot.com", it should take you there.

Major,

When i go to the site, i see the new post -- it should be the first post of those already on the screen. (No need to go into the archives listed on the left.)

Is anyone else having a problem seeing the post? Anyone? Bueller?

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

(Thanks, Michael, for your suggestion. And i won't even call you a geek of any flavor....*smile*)

slave marsha:

i am not able to see Master Jim's new post either. i have never had problems in the past.

Thanks.

In Leather, i am,
ryan
man in Service to Master Jim

I am not sure why some of you are having problems, but the post is there on the site.

All,

Apparently, BlogSpot has had some technical problems. Their website says they were fixed this evening. Hopefully, anyone who wants to view the post will be able to do so.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

When I go to the site, the most recent post is June 9th by Master Jim.

All,

Most people seem to be able to see the latest post, but a few still cannot. i don't have a fix or solution for this, but for anyone who is interested, the text of Master Jim's post is below.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

**************************

I Am Poly…But I Am Not Polyamorous

The recent discussion by the readers of this website about polyamorous or poly relationships seems to be missing one important consideration: what do we mean when we say we are polyamorous? As I read the various posts, I came to realize that I might not understand what people mean when they call themselves “polyamorous.” So I did a quick Google search and found a site with the following definitions of polyamory:

“A long-term, romantically committed, multiple partner relationship.”

“The practice, state or ability of having more than one sexual loving relationship at the same time, with the full knowledge and consent of all partners involved.”

“Means ‘many loves,’ and refers to relationship styles of responsible non-monogamy.”

There were many more definitions, but these examples give a flavor of what people may mean when they say they are polyamorous. These selected definitions and most others, while they vary, do have common components: the idea of multiple relationships (poly), coupled with love (amor) and usually sex.

Now I say enough extreme things already, so I will not use this post to stake out a position against love and sex, especially sex. Trust me – I am strongly in favor of sex and I really do not have anything against love, either. I will, however, challenge the common practice of applying the term polyamorous to Master/slave relationships when what is being described may be, I think, something quite different.

I currently have two people in service to me – slave marsha as my slave and ryan as my man in service. I also am negotiating with a third person, a boy. Recently, I was asked if I considered myself to be polyamorous. I responded that I do not. Why not? After all, I certainly am not involved in a traditional monogamous relationship. But my response was based on defining the term polyamorous in a way consistent with the common definition of the word – multiple relationships based on romantic love.

If you have been following the writings on this website, or if you have heard me and slave marsha speak, you will know that I do not consider romantic love to be the foundation of my Master/slave relationship. While some kind of love may very well be a part of a Master/slave relationship, as it is in my relationship with slave marsha, it is in no way a romantic love. So as long as there is a common assumption that being polyamorous means having multiple romantic relationships, I will not call myself polyamorous.

But what if we take the romantic love idea (amor) out of the definition of polyamorous, leaving us simply with the term “poly?” Using just the term “poly” (many) to describe my relationships certainly is more accurate.

But calling myself simply “poly” really is not enough. It seems necessary to replace the “amorous” with something to describe the kind of multiple relationships in which I live. And after thinking about what might accurately describe them, the answer came to me – and was quite simple. I have a “polyservice” relationship with slave marsha as my slave and ryan as my man in service. Service is the foundation of these multiple relationships, not love.

And so, for those of us in multiple Master/slave or other service based relationships, I offer the alternative concept of “polyservice” to describe what we do. In my case, it simply fits where polyamorous does not.

In leather,
Master Jim

The poly discussions have been very interesting. i also have to say it is, with out a doubt, WONDERFUL to be a part of a group of people that share their ideas and/or opinions without knocking anothers ideas and/or opinions. i like the 'poly-service' definition, makes complete sense. (polyamorous makes sense too if the 'love' is present with those involved) i'm not Poly or Polyamorous, but i play well with others. ~giggles~

i have another topic if any are up for it. Parenting while in a 24/7 M/s relationship. i'll post my own thoughts on this subject next week after i type it up and show Master and get His approval. But i'll leave you with this thought.

One Master, two beautiful teenager daughters, a biggo shotgun and me. ~giggles~

Have a safe and happy 4th of July.

vic
in loving service to Master Don

QT - marsha m wrote:

> --QT-------------------------------------------------------------
> Reply by email or visit
> http://www.quicktopic.com/23/H/Ja5N3xcn6nsA9/m168
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> All,
>
>
>
> Most people seem to be able to see the latest post, but a few
> still cannot. i don't have a fix or solution for this, but for
> anyone who is interested, the text of Master Jim's post is
> below.
>
>
>
> In service,
>
> marsha
>
> slave to Master Jim
>
>
>
> **************************
>
>
>
> I Am PolyÂ…But I Am Not Polyamorous
>
>
>
> The recent discussion by the readers of this website about
> polyamorous or poly relationships seems to be missing one
> important consideration: what do we mean when we say we are
> polyamorous? As I read the various posts, I came to realize that
> I might not understand what people mean when they call
> themselves “polyamorous.” So I did a quick Google search and
> found a site with the following definitions of polyamory:
>
>
>
> “A long-term, romantically committed, multiple partner
> relationship.”
>
>
>
> “The practice, state or ability of having more than one sexual
> loving relationship at the same time, with the full knowledge
> and consent of all partners involved.”
>
>
>
> “Means ‘many loves,’ and refers to relationship styles of
> responsible non-monogamy.”
>
>
>
> There were many more definitions, but these examples give a
> flavor of what people may mean when they say they are
> polyamorous. These selected definitions and most others, while
> they vary, do have common components: the idea of multiple
> relationships (poly), coupled with love (amor) and usually sex.
>
>
>
> Now I say enough extreme things already, so I will not use this
> post to stake out a position against love and sex, especially
> sex. Trust me – I am strongly in favor of sex and I really do
> not have anything against love, either. I will, however,
> challenge the common practice of applying the term polyamorous
> to Master/slave relationships when what is being described may
> be, I think, something quite different.
>
>
>
> I currently have two people in service to me – slave marsha as
> my slave and ryan as my man in service. I also am negotiating
> with a third person, a boy. Recently, I was asked if I
> considered myself to be polyamorous. I responded that I do not.
> Why not? After all, I certainly am not involved in a traditional
> monogamous relationship. But my response was based on defining
> the term polyamorous in a way consistent with the common
> definition of the word – multiple relationships based on
> romantic love.
>
>
>
> If you have been following the writings on this website, or if
> you have heard me and slave marsha speak, you will know that I
> do not consider romantic love to be the foundation of my
> Master/slave relationship. While some kind of love may very well
> be a part of a Master/slave relationship, as it is in my
> relationship with slave marsha, it is in no way a romantic love.
> So as long as there is a common assumption that being
> polyamorous means having multiple romantic relationships, I will
> not call myself polyamorous.
>
>
>
> But what if we take the romantic love idea (amor) out of the
> definition of polyamorous, leaving us simply with the term
> “poly?” Using just the term “poly” (many) to describe my
> relationships certainly is more accurate.
>
>
>
> But calling myself simply “poly” really is not enough. It seems
> necessary to replace the “amorous” with something to describe
> the kind of multiple relationships in which I live. And after
> thinking about what might accurately describe them, the answer
> came to me – and was quite simple. I have a “polyservice”
> relationship with slave marsha as my slave and ryan as my man in
> service. Service is the foundation of these multiple
> relationships, not love.
>
>
>
> And so, for those of us in multiple Master/slave or other
> service based relationships, I offer the alternative concept of
> “polyservice” to describe what we do. In my case, it simply fits
> where polyamorous does not.
>
>
>
> In leather,
>
> Master Jim

I just have to say, this is an awesome post. I really like how you made a distinction between poly, amory, and service dynamics in the
relationships. I am polyamorous in my love relationships. But, my relationship to my Signore is also, not based on love, but, in our case, on our concepts of ownership and yes, service. If we "fell out of love", our relationship would still exist - I am there to serve him regardless of my emotional feelings toward him, and he is my owner, regardless of whether he loves me or whether I truly piss him off. Some of the flavor of the interaction might change, but the basis of the relationship wouldn't.

Nice piece. Thanks for posting it.

babalon

QT - marsha m wrote:

> --QT-------------------------------------------------------------
> Reply by email or visit
> http://www.quicktopic.com/23/H/Ja5N3xcn6nsA9/m168
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> All,
>
>
>
> Most people seem to be able to see the latest post, but a few
> still cannot. i don't have a fix or solution for this, but for
> anyone who is interested, the text of Master Jim's post is
> below.
>
>
>
> In service,
>
> marsha
>
> slave to Master Jim
>
>
>
> **************************
>
>
>
> I Am PolyÂ…But I Am Not Polyamorous
>
>
>
> The recent discussion by the readers of this website about
> polyamorous or poly relationships seems to be missing one
> important consideration: what do we mean when we say we are
> polyamorous? As I read the various posts, I came to realize that
> I might not understand what people mean when they call
> themselves “polyamorous.” So I did a quick Google search and
> found a site with the following definitions of polyamory:
>
>
>
> “A long-term, romantically committed, multiple partner
> relationship.”
>
>
>
> “The practice, state or ability of having more than one sexual
> loving relationship at the same time, with the full knowledge
> and consent of all partners involved.”
>
>
>
> “Means ‘many loves,’ and refers to relationship styles of
> responsible non-monogamy.”
>
>
>
> There were many more definitions, but these examples give a
> flavor of what people may mean when they say they are
> polyamorous. These selected definitions and most others, while
> they vary, do have common components: the idea of multiple
> relationships (poly), coupled with love (amor) and usually sex.
>
>
>
> Now I say enough extreme things already, so I will not use this
> post to stake out a position against love and sex, especially
> sex. Trust me – I am strongly in favor of sex and I really do
> not have anything against love, either. I will, however,
> challenge the common practice of applying the term polyamorous
> to Master/slave relationships when what is being described may
> be, I think, something quite different.
>
>
>
> I currently have two people in service to me – slave marsha as
> my slave and ryan as my man in service. I also am negotiating
> with a third person, a boy. Recently, I was asked if I
> considered myself to be polyamorous. I responded that I do not.
> Why not? After all, I certainly am not involved in a traditional
> monogamous relationship. But my response was based on defining
> the term polyamorous in a way consistent with the common
> definition of the word – multiple relationships based on
> romantic love.
>
>
>
> If you have been following the writings on this website, or if
> you have heard me and slave marsha speak, you will know that I
> do not consider romantic love to be the foundation of my
> Master/slave relationship. While some kind of love may very well
> be a part of a Master/slave relationship, as it is in my
> relationship with slave marsha, it is in no way a romantic love.
> So as long as there is a common assumption that being
> polyamorous means having multiple romantic relationships, I will
> not call myself polyamorous.
>
>
>
> But what if we take the romantic love idea (amor) out of the
> definition of polyamorous, leaving us simply with the term
> “poly?” Using just the term “poly” (many) to describe my
> relationships certainly is more accurate.
>
>
>
> But calling myself simply “poly” really is not enough. It seems
> necessary to replace the “amorous” with something to describe
> the kind of multiple relationships in which I live. And after
> thinking about what might accurately describe them, the answer
> came to me – and was quite simple. I have a “polyservice”
> relationship with slave marsha as my slave and ryan as my man in
> service. Service is the foundation of these multiple
> relationships, not love.
>
>
>
> And so, for those of us in multiple Master/slave or other
> service based relationships, I offer the alternative concept of
> “polyservice” to describe what we do. In my case, it simply fits
> where polyamorous does not.
>
>
>
> In leather,
>
> Master Jim

I just have to say, this is an awesome post. I really like how you made a distinction between poly, amory, and service dynamics in the
relationships. I am polyamorous in my love relationships. But, my relationship to my Signore is also, not based on love, but, in our case, on our concepts of ownership and yes, service. If we "fell out of love", our relationship would still exist - I am there to serve him regardless of my emotional feelings toward him, and he is my owner, regardless of whether he loves me or whether I truly piss him off. Some of the flavor of the interaction might change, but the basis of the relationship wouldn't.

Nice piece. Thanks for posting it.

babalon

QT - babalon wrote:

A response to a long post where i should have snipped some content. Sorry - I was fighting with my software and hadn't realized until it arrived... My apologies.

babalon

slave marsha,

Many thanks for posting Master Jim’s thoughts on poly. For sure, there are many words and meanings that are used routinely for “other-than-traditional-monogamous-relationships”.

Poly, polyandrous, poly service, polyamorous, slut, whore, player, ethical slut and promiscuous leap to mind. There are others I’m sure, but my brain is fuzzy this morning and I will leave further contributions to others of clearer mind.

Perhaps like the Eskimos 21 words for snow, the community will develop our own set of words that are more accurate and less judgmental than most of the above.

My search is for a word that includes elements of poly, slut, spiritual, controlling, generous, dominant, nurturing, sadistic, adventurous, tolerant, honorable, occasionally promiscuous and Top has, so far been fruitless. It usually has far too many hyphens and slashes to render it meaningful. The only word I can find that has the appropriate balance of those traits is “Major”

slave marsha writes:

<(Thanks, Michael, for your suggestion. And i won't even call you a geek of any flavor....*smile*)>

Hey, I don't mind being called a geek. Geeks are so completely *in*, at least here in the Great Northwest.

Having been in service in the past -- although I am not now -- I completely understand slave marsha's discussion of "spinning". Some years ago, I happened to read a book which encouraged readers to live in the "here and now" (which isn't necessarily practical for someone in service). What it recommended was that you examine what you're obssessing about and determine if there's anything you can do *right now* to change it. If not, let it go. I've been practicing this ever since, and, while it's not an easy lesson to learn, it has helped me stop the negative thoughts faster than I've been able to do in the past. Someone who practices anticipatory service can still do that, I believe, while letting go of what's already done. It was also useful for me to understand that my Master had the privilege and responsibility of correcting me -- not me. When I find myself beating myself up about something, I just try to remember that my job is to own up to it and take whatever punishment might pertain. It's someone else's job to do the punishing.

my thoughts on marsha's trapdoor part II post:

i don't imagine i'm the only one that read that and teared up, because i've been there. i've been involved in many conversations and group board conversations about how important communication is in every aspect of a M/s relationship. It is so easier said than done, even for those with many years experience.

i'll admit, sometimes i don't hide my thoughts or emotions as well as i think i can because Master can look at me and when i least expect it He'll ask 'What are your thoughts?'. i'll also admit to really hating that at times. Sometimes when i get lost in thought it may be something truly boring like, 'i hope the Dr. brings another biggo back of pictachios to work tomorrow'. Then another time it may be, 'how do i tell Master i broke his favorite coffee cup'. i don't have a problem with owning up to a wrong doing, or an accident i was responsible for, thats not the difficult part, the difficult part for me is dealing with his dissapointment. i'll 'sit and spin', (hey, wasn't that a toy when we were younger?), on that disappointed look or disappointed sound in His voice. It's hard to not spin and most of the time He's way over it long before i'm able to be over it.
Anyways, i was rambling, but what i meant to address was simply, communication is truly important as hard as it is to do at times and it's most definetly easier said than done sometimes.
Thanks again marsha and Master Jim for sharing with us. ~sending you both hugs~

vic
owned and operated by Master Don and loving it

In my first week in Service to Master Jim, i very unexpectedly fell through a trapdoor. Neither Master Jim nor i knew exactly where it came from, but there i was falling into what i called a swirling vortex of nothingness. What slave marsha has recently posted in her second installation regarding trapdoors is so critical to surviving them. I did panic and spun uncontrollably in
that panic. And, Master Jim was there all along talking with me and reassuring me there would be an end to the panic. He very wisely counseled me and then asked me to talk with slave marsha. During my conversation with her, she said, "Let go ryan." In a split second i said, "Step through the fear" and immediately i heard the trapdoor slam shut.

Thank You Master Jim Sir and slave marsha.

In Leather, i am,
ryan
man in Service to Master Jim

Edited by author 07-15-2004 06:45 PM
looking forward to meeting you in Amarillo ryan.
If anyone is truly interested in coming to Amarillo to witness part two of their ceremonious cutting seminar, feel free to email me for details. We welcome you to join us.

vic
subvic61389@yahoo.com

This is the first time I've been here ~smile~
Thank you so much for this..I'm sure many more thoughts will come, the more I read..

--after reading back--

I'm definitely interested in your thoughts on Parenting while in a 24/7 relationship subvic. That is my biggest trapdoor I suppose... the fact that my Master works long hard hours, and I work and go to school as well. I am left to do so much of the decision making, responsibility work during the day/week.. always in control because I have to be in order for things to run smoothly (or at all here.)

Of course, instead of going to my Master and saying.."I'm having problems with this Sir, please help me.." I act out.. and / or defy him in some way.. but I'm really not trying to be a bad girl, it just happens.

i smile when reading marsha's words, even through the tears. Somehow, it helps to hear another slave feels the same things i do ... it makes it ok. Thank you, marsha, for being strong enough to be open ... graceful enough to cry and be strong at the same time.

In Leather Love,
traci

(sorry for taking so long to get back to this eliza.. lol)

i'm owned, in a 24/7 relationship, although i have known Master for a long time now, we have only been living together for 6 months. His children are grown, in college and living in another state. He was divorced from their mother for many years, the children lived with her but visited him on a regular basis. Naturally, Master has a very dominant personality and his children were well behaved in his presence. Might i add, they have grown into wonderful, pleasant adults with the best manners and they adore their father and have accepted me kindly and that is so important and really makes me feel good about our relationship. i brought two teenage girls into this relationship, still school age, like all teenagers, a mind of their own and personality's that won't quit. They spend a lot of time back and forth between me and their father. Products of divorce, know how to play this back and forth game when they don't get their way or decide they don't want to follow the rules. This summer has been very testing for all of us.
Being owned and living with my own set of rules has been tough on me as well as the girls. i've had to learn to not be so lienient with them and not give in to them as much as i used to. Master says i not only submit to him, but i submit to them. He's right, they dominate me every chance they get and He doesn't like it at all. He adores these girls and in time they will adore Him, i know this. They don't dislike Him so don't get me wrong, they are still trying to 'get to know him', in their own time tho because, as with all teenagers, they have their own agenda. (phone, mall, money and boyfriends)
Whew, boyfriends and clothes. Master is very old fashioned and conservative, i'm great with that. We have had some very humorous conversations about his conservative raising and low rise jeans. His idea of meeting a boy coming to call on one of these girls includes a semi-automatic. i'm exaggerating of course, He doesn’t own a semi-automatic. He does however, own a shot gun. All kidding aside, phone calls after ten and knocks on the door without knowing a visitor is coming do not set well with Master, as it shouldn't. Before Master i was alone with these girls for 7 years, yes, their raising has been a little more leinient that it should have been. Sometimes i think i tried too hard to make them happy because i'm the one that left their father. (with good reason but that’s a vanilla story that doesn’t need to be shared publically) So, these two beautiful teenagers are spoiled and used to getting their way, quite a bit. my fault certainly, but now, as they have noticed and pointed out to me on several occasions when they haven't gotten their way, i'm different. You see, now, i have to make decisions and usually quick ones, and i have to first think of how will Master react to this or will this make Master grumble. One of the things that i struggle with is money. i don't struggle with the fact that Master handles all the money now, i really like that. What i struggle with is the girls holding out their hand every other day for non-necessity's and telling them "no", more than i ever have in my life.
i'm not good with money, in fact there is no reason i shouldn't have been able to save tons of money at my previous job. It was the perfect job for a single mother, no rent, no utilities, i only had a car payment, insurance and phone & cable bill. (i managed an apartment complex and lived on property) So, prior to moving in with Master and changing jobs, when the girls wanted something (wanted NOT needed) i was readily available with the cash. They were spoiled to this. Now things are different, no calls after 10, no unexpected visitors and no ready cash 24/7. So, true to form, they act up and i get, "i'm going to dads". (who i might add doesn't come up with the cash either but doesn’t monitor visitors or phone calls) i'm still the person they come to in a crisis, i'm still the person they talk to, i'm still the person that is there for them when they really need someone. (sometimes inconvienient needs like a ride home from somewhere their dad let them go to without my knowledge till they need a ride).
They have spent more time with their dad the last 6 months then they have the last 7 years. He is making the same mistakes i did, letting them have their way hoping they will like him better than me..
One of the things i talked about with Master prior to moving in with Him, was my need for structure, my girls need (whether they believe it or not) for structure. This is something He promised me and trust me, the girls and i both make it extremely hard for Him at times. i know this man, my Master, loves us without a doubt and He truly takes wonderful care of us and we never 'need' for anything, all i have to do is ask. i know He is sometimes frustrated, but He has been so good to us and is teaching me so much about myself and my mannerisms towards my children.
i know i could probably go on and on with more episodes and experiences but this is the jest of it. Now, its time to do another one of those "just call mom" things as i hang up the phone and close this post.

vic
serving Master Don and loving it

<font="comic sans"> i was a slave-in-training before i ever became a mother, and motherhood wasn't something i planned, it was more something that the powers that be decided i needed to do. i see now how important it was that i have the children when i did (i have three - my son will be 18 in Sept, and my twin girls will be 16 in Aug). i don't claim to be an expert on parenting in conjunction with a 24/7 M/s relationship, but i do my best to balance both parts of my life. The first thing i found myself doing was to curb my slave-like behavior when the kids first became old enough to have any real sense of how i acted when my Master was around. He asked me once if i was ashamed of being His slave. This totally left me speechless. "ahh, ummm ... of course not, Master!" to which He replied "Well, then, why are you changing your actions when the children are around?" This caused me to really sit back and think. i wasn't ashamed, i was sure of that. i was (and am) proud of who i am. i thought first that i was doing the right thing, but after long discussions with my Master, and some real soul-searching, i went back to just 'being me' at home, kneeling at His feet to watch TV, serving Him first at all meals, etc.

As the children got older, they started to ask questions, and i kept my promise to myself - when they were born, i promised each of them that i would never lie to them about anything. As time has gone on, this has meant discussing BDSM, drugs, addiction, sex, rape, and many other uncomfortable subjects, but it has left the children with a sense of trust and friendship with me that they don't have with their father.

Five years ago, my son was cruising the 'net, and found some links that i'd been to (that option can be changed in IE options, btw) that had changed colors. He came to me, wanting to know what "buddhism" was ... which made me ask what he was asking about. He had seen BDSM, and thought it to be one of those "initial words" (yes, i know there's a word for that, but it's escaping me this monday morning). i have always answered their questions, so i did the same in this instance. i explained what each of the letters stood for, and laughed out loud when i realized that Patrick's perception of me was that i was Dominant, because in every instance he could think of, i had been in charge. (When i divorced my first husband, i was 24, and my children were all under 5. There was no reason for them to ever see me as truly submissive, because with them, i had to be in charge.) He found out what he wanted to know, and the subject was dropped.

There have been times when i have not had a Master, but my soul has always been that of a slave. my daughters are now sexually active, and both of them are "playing BDSM games". When my Master and i got married a year ago, my girls started calling Him daddy, and my son actually allowed another Man to be the head of the house. Patrick had done that job well from the age of 5, and has nearly been a father to his sisters. We've had some interesting dinner conversations where one of my daughters has asked "Daddy, where did you learn what you know about BDSM?" "How do you know when someone's been tied up too long?" "How do you know when it's been too much pain?" and other similar questions. Truthfully, as Master and i look around to some of the eager wannabes in the public BDSM scene locally, we see quite clearly that our children are more in tune with the lifestyle than many of our peers. They have all accepted that when i say "i'll have to ask Master" about a certain subject, or whatever, they will get an answer in a few hours or the next day, but there is no guarantee that it'll be the answer they WANT. They have accepted that i trust my life in His hands, and their lives as well. As such, they have come to trust and love Him just as i do. The girls have dubbed themselves "assistant slaves", as they like to bring us both breakfast in bed on Sunday mornings, and we all smile - it's just our family structure. The girls aren't submissive in their play with their boyfriends - they switch, and are predominantly Toppy.

i have found that even though Master is tired when He gets home from work, just as i am ... He still wants to be consulted and be an integral part of everything in my day. i have been going through some frustrating times and some pretty serious depression, and He's been wonderful about relieving me of my stressors as much as He possibly can. We've been a 24/7 couple for two years now, and the kids have seen my trust in Him grow and deepen, and theirs has followed suit.

</font>

Thank you both subvic and traci. I really appreciate your thoughts.

Master and I have 2 children together, however they're both 3 and under.. it's so much work (good work though) and it leaves us so tired. I feel like, because I'm so busy with them.. I'm not a very good submissive. Although, he says that right now, what he needs is for me to be very busy taking care of everything.... (trapdoor alert:::) I just feel like I should be more....of something...better at something...

It's that dreaded something!

Well, I don't want to hog slave marsha and Master Jim's board about this.... I just wanted to thank you both very very much for your thoughts, and sharing them with me.

Thank you, Master Jim, slave marsha and ryan, for sharing the ceremony with us. The description is beautiful, as I'm sure the event was.

i just wanted to say thank you for sharing with us, Master and i were not in attendance but you all were surely in our thoughts that day and i look forward to part II of the ceremony. Struggling to resist my own trap doors of late, this has brought me ideas to share with my Master.
vic
serving and loving Master Don

Once again....i feel you.....you brought me to tears!
much love & empathy is sent your way.
monica

incase there was any doubt who my last post was to....slave marsha.
monica property of SS

Namaste Master Jim, slave marsha - blessings and eternal peace. thank you for sharing this. i honor your courage and spirit both; and i touch the lotus feet of Master Jim for his gift of wisdom and healing. you both truly exemplify that which is the highest potential in our lifestyle. thank you. slavecaroline

Guess i will be the first to post a "BIG THANK YOU" from Amarillo/Lubbock for your time and sensitivity to, actually, come to Amarillo as that door was presented to Y/you-A/all and present the "Power of the Blood" ...and i am reluctant to say "seminar," because of the tremendous "ceremony" and shall i dare say, "CELEBRATION?"(~SMILES). It has been said on the Amarillo/Lubbock yahoogroup message boards today in view of last night's CELEBRATION, "Wow" a few times, and pretty much classified as a "life changing" event and "one that will not be forgotten." Much appreciation for the sharing of Y/yourselves, for sure. My MR can be quoted as saying "I learned some things tonight that I had not expected to learn tonight," one being the IMPORTANCE of the ritual, and Y/your demonstration was FABULOUS. (i got teared as slave marsha bowed down and Master Mim touched her on the head and it was repeated for our observation and demonstrative purposes.) i would term that act as "WONDYFUL..." ~smiles~ Appreciation to You, Master Jim, and slave marsha and man in service, ryan (hope i said that right.)
Oh yeah, just so Y/you know...i'm the one who forgot your drink orders. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh~ Big grins and big thanks!

lindi (Master Rod's baby)

lindi,

Thank you so much for your very kind words -- most of all, thank you to the whole Amarillo community! You opened your home and your hearts to Master Jim, myself and ryan -- the warmth and hospitality were very much appreciated.

Thanks also for letting us know that others found something of use in what we had to say. That means a great deal to us.

We wish each of you joy as you travel your path in this life, and we hope to see many of you at South Plains!

Warmly,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

P.S. -- Sweetie, you did just fine with the drinks!

Master Jim, slave marsha and man in service ryan,

lindi couldn't have said it better, the presentation, ceremony got raving reviews by our group, there was a couple of times i don't believe there was a dry eye in the house. i believe we were all moved by the experience and our hearts were truly touched by the ceremony. No one was sure what to expect but i have to say, no one that even made a guess as to how this would be got what they thought. i do not believe any of us realized what a special opportunity we had in bearing witness to this last public "power in the blood" seminar for awhile. Our heartfelt thanks and appreciation to all that you guys do and give to this community and i truly hope i can drag another group to Dallas again in Feb 05' for LeatherFest. i know i'm already giving Master puppy dog eyes and precious kisses in hopes we can sign up by the first deadline in december.
We also had the pleasure of meeting Major. He traveled all the way from Albq to bear witness as well and we truly enjoyed meeting Him and plan to drag Him back to Amarillo often.
i was asked after the ceremony, "what did you get from this". my response was simple. what i 'got' from witnessing this ceremony was an appreciation for ritualisms and ceremonialisms and just how much, no matter how diverse, we are truly, without a doubt, "family" in this lifestyle. Asked by another person, who mentioned that she noted all slaves she could see smiled and cried as we watched, why? (And know that she was sincere with her question) my response was this: "if i were guessing, i'd say that 99% of all slaves/submissives crave, desire, need the ritualistic and ceremonial acts in their relationships". It was just simply moving to watch ryan submitting to Master Jim, slave marsha accepting him with an open and understanding heart and Master Jim accepting both, ryans submission and marsha's acceptance of him. i'm excited to hear and learn from this new relationship.

Thank you all so very much,
vic
Master Dons property

P.S. i have a question about cutting. What are your thoughts on cutting on or around an already present tatoo? (in my case, small, i was more or less wondering if this would give the tatoo a lil diminsion, its on my upper buttocks, its a small kanji of Masters name)

Dear vic,

And thank you for all the hard work you did in making the arrangements to have us come to Amarillo. It was clear from what your Master said at the seminar that he is extremely proud of what you did and i can certainly understand why!

If anyone didn't get a question answered Saturday night, i hope you'll let them know they can feel free to email me, or come on over to this discussion group and ask it here. (It was important to Master Jim that night that we get back to the hotel and have a little time alone after the ceremony, so thank you again to everyone for their understanding.)

To answer your question about the cutting around the tattoo... i'll really defer to someone who is more expert at cutting than i am. i know we have monica on this list, who is in service to one of the finest and best known cutters and piercers (both permanent and temporary) in the country, so perhaps she'd be willing to comment.

my initial thought based on my experience is that i'm not sure cutting will accomplish what you want -- if you don't scar, it probably wouldn't give you any definition and if you do really scar, the scarring could overrun the tattoo. It might be better to go back to a good tattoo artist and ask if any additional work could be done on it that would highlight the tattoo. But as i said, i'm not an expert at this, and monica or someone else on the list might have other thoughts.

Warmly,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

slave marsha, I can't tell you how grateful I am for being a witness to such a momentous occasion. I honestly can't put into words how it made me feel and how it has changed the way I look at D/s, M/s relationships. Best wishes and congratulations to you, Master Jim and man in service ryan.

vic, lindi, Orchid, and E/everyone present in Amarillo:

i would like to echo slave marsha's gratitude for all that E/everyone did to make O/our trip to Amarillo such an incredible expereince. For me, Amarillo was my maiden voyage as it was my first trip, presentation, ceremony, and ritual with Master Jim and slave marsha. As the three of U/us discussed later that evening and again on O/our return to Dallas, the evening could not have been better. It once again teaches U/us to go where Spirit calls.

Personally, i am forever in E/everyone's debt for Y/your gracious hospitality, for Y/your acceptance of who W/we are, and for Y/your love, energy, and power to bear witness to O/our Ceremony of Opening and Integration. i am forever changed by this Ceremony and Ritual as i became an integrated member of Master Jim's Household.

In Leather, i am,
ryan
man in Service to Master Jim

i am here as slave marsha said on this list.....Sharrin Spector....my Owner is out of town this weekend at GLLA but i will ask Her about cutting around & through a Tattoo.
One question though, are you a person of color? this has a baring as to whether you Keliod/scar heavily.
monica ...property of SS

hi monica and thanks for inquiring for me. i have indian and spanish heritage and tan very easily. Although my butt (where the tattoo is) is pretty white, it'd be tan if i tanned it. lol (or red of Master tanned it...lol..had to throw that in)

vic
property of Master Don

subvic:

MR puts his "signature" on me each time we play, whether in Chinese or English. About two months ago He carved His last name across my back (on both sides of my tattoo which is in between my shoulder blades) so it looked like i wore a football jersey with His name on my back in block letters. I too tan easily, and my scars from surgeries and prior bladeplay have always been minimal to none. For some reason, His name turned into BRIGHT WHITE lines and are still visible around my tattoo even over two months later. Looks pretty cool, quite frankly, but i think He has been planning on enhancing that tattoo with his own tattoo gun (i'll be His first tattoo victim...lol) and now W/we are having to wait and see if scars are going to stay and how that may affect the tattooing. Doesn't look horrible, i will say. In fact, MR has talked of just going over it and over it each time we play for a REAL lasting effect. ~(smiles) i can imagine some creative intentional and meaningful pattern around a tatt looking really cool via bladeplay. Anyway...my comments. MR wrote in large block letters across the top of this ass "M I N E" and it is still very readable, even though it's been over two weeks. We are cutting as deep as Master Jim cut at the seminar, though using an extremely sharp knife, but those "sensitive" "don't-see-the-light-of-day" areas are proving to scar longer and "better"...and i am wondering if they will be there "forever." Only time will tell. Of course i'm one of the ones that LOVE the scarring...hee heeee! Greetings to A/all and hoping you are having a great "end of summer." ~always smiling and loving the lifestyle....Master Rod's baby, lindi

i asked my Lady this question and her response was Why would you want to do that. If the tattoo needs to be more defined the best way to do that is with tattoo ink' cuttting it will only pull some of the ink out of it . If you want to remove a section of the tattoo it is best to brand it because the branding will remove all of the ink. But I do not think you want it removed just enhanced in which case the Lady says find a tattoo artist that can "redo" the original outline which will make it crisper visually. The Lady added that because of your heritage you are likly to scar more heavely if you where to repeatedly cut around the tattoo. You could damage the tattoo and it would look lumpy around it. scar tissue is hard to control
Hope this helps
monica
property of SS

Question:

Any recommendations out there where I can find a GOOD BDSM chatroom? Not the kind where it's a meat market or a "come watch my webcam and get off on me" soliciting forum. I am going on my second year in the lifestyle, i am collared to MR. I would like to find a forum that talks about the lifestyle in a very real way without a bunch of pickup lines, etc. Please advise if anyone knows of any good places. Thanks a mill. baby

In my opinion and experience, chatrooms are one of the worst possible venues to explore or discuss BDSM. Fact is, unless you have met someone in person and know for sure who they are, what they do and who they know, they could just as easily be sitting there in boxers eating french fries. To my knowledge, almost any chatroom will have someone "real" in it. Likewise, there will always be posers. If you wish to learn more, or talk to others who understand, I strongly recommend that you keep yourself to "real-time" activities and people.

On Monday nights, SC-LOCK which is a real time group has a chat at 9pm. Different topics are approached and suggestions on what would like to be discussed is always appreciated. Most of the people in the chat room also go to real time events. Both Master Jim and slave marsha have come and spoken with SC-LOCK in real time.

Though I have to admit, I do sit at the computer on Monday nights in my boxers, though not usually eating fries. :)

DaddiJ
SC-LOCK board member
www.sc-lock.com


>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

And Master Jim and i had a great time at SC-LOCK! Your hospitality was outstanding and it was wonderful to meet the community there. Master Jim and i hope we can come back some day... this time, with ryan and alex!

Warmly,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

DaddiJ...THANK YOU for the information. I went to that website and read just about every article. ~smiles

Michael: I agree to a degree about the online stuff, but heck, I have met liars, cheaters, disrespecters, and total idiots...ummm...in church, too. It's a big ol' world and not everyone is upfront in person and truly NOT ONLINE either, so I take it all with a grain of salt.

I do not take all information in and believe it as "truth" concerning the lifestyle, either. I have a Master that leads and guides me, and we participate in our local groups, BUT...because the internet IS a means whereby people can "chat" I honestly wanted to find a cool place if there was one, which is why I posted the question. DaddiJ's recommendation = "cool place."

tytyty
lindi (MR'S property)

Totally agree that fakers are *everywhere*. I've just found them more prevalent online, since it's a more anonymous medium than many others that can be accessed. I've seen some horrifyingly inaccurate information posted on the web, where some people actually believe it! (And I've talked some people out of posting things on their website because they weren't going to post the truth.) I'm glad you have a recommendation for a site that will meet your needs.

Thank you, marsha. We loved having you here and can't wait to have you back with ryan and alex. Master Jim and you are still topics of conversation at discussions and munches. I do believe quite an impression was made.
DaddiJ
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Edited by author 09-23-2004 11:34 AM
How Do You Find the Answers...

1) To if a D/s based relationship is right for you?

2) To all the ways D/s relationships can be expressed; so you can find the right one for you?

3) To how you structure a service based relationship,
   whether romantic love is involved or not?

4) To what service actually is?

5) To knowing if your D/s or service based relationship is
   successful?

6) To integrating a D/s relationship into your everyday
   life?

7) To setting up a service based relationship that does
   not revolve around S&M

Life is the grand stage that that we play out our existence on, but life for us is not a staged production that changes from weekend to workday. We are who and what we are every moment of every day.

Living, Loving, Laughing in Leather: On the stage of life it's not just our play; it's who we are.

Join Lock October 9, 2004 as we gather some of the most experienced people from across the nation to help you find your answers to these and other questions.

Skip Chasey & his slave Rick from Los Angles California
Catherine Gross from New York City
Boomer from Atlanta Georgia

Skip Chasey (a/k/a Master Skip) had the privilege of addressing a crowd of almost one million people as an openly gay, Christian, leatherman at the Millennium March on Washington. He is a co-owner of the Southwest Leather Conference, a core instructor for the APEX Academy/ Bachmann’s Experience, has served as a judge at many
local, regional and national title contests, and has spoken and/or presented programs on various aspects of BDSM, spirituality and Master/slave relationships for dozens of organizations and events across the country, including Avatar Club (where he is an active member), Threshold, Orange Coast Leather Assembly, Arizona Power
Exchange, Pantheon West, SAADE, Shibari, Lair de Sade, Odyssey, Folsom Fringe, Thunder in the Mountains, Together in Leather, Southeast Leatherfest, Club X Leatherfest, South Plains Leatherfest, the Northeast Master/slave Conference and the Leather Leadership Conference. Master Skip is an occasional instructor at the monthly Leather Lab in North Hollywood and the annual Sampler weekend in
Palm Springs, and in 2002 he co-founded People of Leather Among You (PLAY), a social and educational group for Southern California leatherfolk interested in the integration of spirituality and leather/fetish sexuality. Skip was the winner of the Best Trainer award at the 2002 International Puppy Contest and Avatar™ Lee Montague Memorial Award for Outstanding Community Service, Master
Skip lives in Los Angeles, where he heads a family of spiritually grounded leathermen.

Master Skip will deliver the keynote address as well as closing remarks on Sunday

Slave Rick has presented programs on the spiritual dynamics of consensual slavery at Arizona Power Exchange, Pantheon West, Lair de Sade, PLAY, Together in Leather, the Southwest Leather Conference, South Plains Leatherfest and the Lesbian and Gay Psychotherapy Association of Southern California. He is a full-time civil
servant, a part-time college instructor, a massage therapist, a Science of Mind practitioner and a licensed psychotherapist. First and foremost, however, he is by grace in service to his beloved Master.

Catherine Gross:

I am what I have always been- I am a slave. I am what I have come to be-- head of my leather family. I've been pursuing the concepts of service, obedience, dominance, submission, and sado-masochism for as long as I have been sexual. I have been owner and owned. SM has been an indelible thread in my life, touching all points within all that I am. It is a passion that has lead to deepened spiritual awakening, tenderness, passion, and an understanding that our greatest strengths lie within our fragility. Switching Paradigms is a natural outgrowth of my experiences and I hope to share much with SC LOCK's attendees from my experience.
 
For more information on Servant's Retreat, Catherine's private practice, to download her Safety Manual, and classes she offers, please visit her site at www.BDSMClasses.com. Catherine also owns
www.FetishAuctioneer.com an online auction.

Boomer:

D/s relationships have always held a fascination for me. The fantasy of it has driven my sexuality since before I recognized it as sexuality. I have always been kinky. Among the many things that I discovered as I grew and wanted to bring my fantasy into some reality was that it was extremely difficult to make the fantasy real. While there was power and fulfillment is “playing” D/s fantasies with lovers, the ultimate power always seemed to be in bringing the fantasy into the reality of my life and I wanted to learn how to do that.

Unfortunately there are few models in our early lives for
alternative relationships based on true power exchange. There is power exchange in many relationships, but it is most often unconscious and many times not consensual or fulfilling to the participants. While I firmly believe the most important aspect of D/s interaction is that mystical element of “chemistry” that can exist between partner is a power exchange, I discovered there were also “rules” of engagement that made it easier to establish a fulfilling and successful power based relationship. While I have come to believe that in general these “rules” can be guidelines for any sort of relationship, I firmly believe they have been very
useful (almost necessary) in establishing and maintaining my alternative relationships. While I make no claim to their universal application, I have learned through trial and error that they work. What I will focus on in my discussion is what I refer to as the service based D/s relationship. I have found this to be among the most satisfying relationship in the D/s spectrum. I will try to share the practical experience I have had with this sort on interaction and give a practical approach to establishing and maintaining the master/servant model and show the practical process of making the fantasy work in reality.

Come hear how these folks have built, nourished and maintained D/s and service based relationships, sometimes while both being the dominant of one person and the property of another.

Box Office & Ticket Information:

RSVP: Events@sc-lock.com by October 2nd 2004

Location: Greenville SC

Date: Saturday & Sunday, October 9th and 10th

Curtain Rises: Saturday October 9th, 10:00 AM

Cost: $40.00 per person Everyone Is Welcome to Attend.

10:00 AM Registration and Vending

1030-1130 AM Non-Act One: Master Skip Chasey, Key Note Address

11:45-1:115 PM Non-Act Two: Slave Rick, “Servant to the World”

1:15-2:00 PM Intermission (Lunch)
 
2:00-3:30 PM Non-Act Three: Catherine Gross, “Switching Paradigms”

3:45-5:15 PM Non-Act Four: Boomer, “Service Based Relationships: A Practical Approach”

Sunday, October 10th:

10:00 AM Cast Call: Continental Breakfast

10:30-1200 PM Non-Act Five: Master Skip Chasey, Closing Remarks, Closing Ritual

12:15 PM Curtain Fall:

Additional Stage Props available from Achella
http://www.achella.com/

Break a leg and be there!

Justin Medlin
More Info Available at http://www.sclock.com/events/lllinleather2.htm
Still have Questions? Write me at events@sc-lock.com

All,

i am sorry to tell you that Master Jim's youngest son passed away this weekend. He was 23. James battled depression for many years, and this weekend, chose to take his own life.

Please keep Master Jim and his family, both biological and leather, in your thoughts and prayers. And i would be most grateful if you would say a word in your prayers for me, that i might see how to serve Him in this time.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

please know you are all in our prayers.

vic

slave marsha,

you are Loved.

you are safe.

you are strong beyond even your own imagination.

you are the subject of constant prayers.

In leather,

Major


< replied-to message removed by QT >

my condolences to Master Jim and His families. Prayers have been said, candles lit, and loving supportive thoughts sent to all. A special prayer has been sent also slave marsha as you requested, for you to see how best to serve Him in this time of loss.

lynn

my heart weeps when things like this happen.

Strength and abundant peace that passes your understanding to you and your's.

Master Rod's lindi

Master Jim --

I have no personal experience of a loss like yours, but you and your families are in my thoughts. I will also be thinking of those who serve you, that they might have the knowledge, grace and instinct to give you some measure of comfort.

Warmest regards,
Michael

Master Jim, slave marsha, ryan, and the rest of the clan;

Master Trent and i send along our love and our hope that together you find the strength to make your way through this difficult time. Know that you are much stronger together than any one of Y/you could be individually, and that the strength you share as a family is the love and spiritual unity that shines through in all you have done for each other, and for the extended leather community as a whole. Please draw on the love this community has for you all, and tap into the love and positive energy we send your way.

With love, in leather and in spirit,
Master Trent and His slave, traci



< replied-to message removed by QT >

Master Jim, slave marsha, ryan:
Please know that our hearts and prayers are with ya'll.

Malik and cathy

I've just read this very sad news and send Your families strength and wishes for hope through this time of grief.
You've been there for Me and I want you to know that I'm willing to help in any way I can.
And, slave marsha, I know you'll be there for Him in whatever way He needs. It's who you are.

M.Blair

I was so sorry to hear of your loss and have kept you and your family in my thoughts. Take care of each other.

Good morning E/everyone:

Please feel free to crosspost this announcement wherever Y/you feel is appropriate:

South Plains Leatherfest-International Master/slave Weekend
February 25-27, 2005 – Dallas, Texas
Early Registration Closes December 1!

If you’ve been waiting to register for South Plains Leatherfest-International Master/slave Weekend in Dallas, don’t wait any longer! The early registration price of $72 ends soon -- December 1, 2004. On line registration is available at www.southplainsleatherfest.com.

South Plains Leatherfest-International Master/slave Weekend features two exciting workshop tracks: one on Master/slave Relationships and one on advanced Leather/SM topics. South Plains is the place where some of the best-known presenters in the community showcase new and cutting-edge presentations that you won’t want to miss! Check out the South Plains website for a preview of some of the coming attractions.

South Plains also is the home of the International Master/slave Contest. This year, the winning M/s pairs from four regional Master/slave feeder contests will compete for the title of International Master and slave. Come out and support your region’s winners.

At South Plains, you’ll experience the best in seminars, an outstanding vendor area, receptions, the International Master/slave Contest -- and most of all, the family of leathermen and leatherwomen who come together for the weekend. It’s only $72 – but only until December 1st!

For more information or to register, visit the South Plains Leatherfest-International Master/slave Weekend website at www.southplainsleatherfest.com.

In Leather, i am,
ryan
man in Service to Master Jim

i just wanted to say a quick thank you to Master Jim and slave marsha for the site they are running...especially the blogs which have been so helpful in reminding me of my beliefs while i move into a new M/s relationship and my first collar. When i left the states many years ago to live in a new country i felt very isolated in my views and cultural ways, especially within the realm of bdsm. Many of the things i was taught and believed in in the US were ridiculed and derided in my new home. It was very difficult and it has taken many years to find my place and my peace.

I have at last settled down with a Master who has some experience with my cultural background and who hears what i say with an open mind. The blogs have been very helpful in opening up areas of discussion and saying things in ways that sometimes i struggle with. They have also helped me to explore my own mind as i come back to the truth of my earliest beliefs and needs. Service has been my life and is now my life with my Master. I'm finally home.

Thank you Master Jim and slave marsha for helping me sort through all the garbage i've accumulated along the way to find my way back to the heart of what i am and the journey i want to be on. Thank you for giving my Master other words to hear that help him to understand my heart and mind.

allspice - from over the rainbow, in Oz

After a second amazing Southwest Leather Conference experience, I woke up Monday morning knowing that I can't afford to miss South Plains Leatherfest-International Master/slave Weekend. I know slave marsha announced Sunday that the early registration deadline had been extended, but I wanted to clarify until what date. I heard the 10th(Friday), but someone told me last night it is the 11th (Saturday). I want to make sure I am telling others the correct date.

Thank you to everyone here who presented, judged, and was present to make this event so wonderous. It amazes me that it was twice the size as last year, yet still felt like an intimate family gathering. And congratulations to all the new title holders and their leather families as well.

Thanks to allspice for the very kind words. They mean a great deal to us.

Master Jim and i apologize that the blog has been so quiet. He and i have intended to write, but life just keeps getting in the way. As many of you know, Master Jim's youngest son committed suicide in early October, and so the last few months have been very difficult, to say the least. We hope to get back on track writing on the blog soon.

To answer the South Plains-International Master/slave Weekend question -- early registration will expire at the end of the day on December 10! Only 2 more days to get the early registration price...

M. D'Marie -- it's great to hear you say that SWLC has ignited a desire in you to be with your "family" at South Plains! That's been the dream Master Jim and i have had in fostering the regional contests/events -- to create a series of family reunions that all of us interested in M/s will want to attend.

We look forward to seeing you there.

Dear Leather Tribe,

It was great seeing everyone at SWLC, which turned out to be another fantastic conference. I have been feeling that I have not seen my extended leather family enough of late, and so we have made our reservations to attend South Plains Leather. I have heard many good things about this event, and am looking forward to seeing everyone there. I havent spent any time in texas (unless you count a short layover in houston) and am looking forward to seeing Dallas... We booked a room at the hotel as well. Now if we can just find a decent fare to get there hehehe.....

Warmly
MasterSteel

I regret to report that I won't be attending South Plains after all. I have been looking forward to it since Southwest Leather and making plans to connect with a variety of old and new friends. However, we decided to move instead of renew our lease and the resultant expenses nearly emptied our discretionary fund. I decided it was better to wait to rebuild our "fun" money than go into debt. Is there any way I can sign up now to volunteer for South South Plains-International Master/slave Weekend 2006? <g>

i just wanted to thank Master Jim, slave marsha, and those in service to Him, that made South Plains such a WONDERFUL event!
i am hoping Master will bring me again next year!

Master Jim,

Thank you for being so open in your last post. I find Your continued living in Your truth and walking Your leather walk to be an inspiration.

Tyler

I just wanted to say a quick hello to Master Jim and slave marsha. I was speaking last night to my dear friend, slave caroline, during our housewarming and saying how much I'd like to come to the states with her soon and meet you all. At the moment it looks like January and the Southwest Leatherfest might be my opportunity but I thought I would say a quick hello here first.

It is difficult in this part of the world to find good Master/slave relationship role models and slave caroline is a life line for me. She speaks highly of her leather family and of you both and we have many discussions on how difficult it can be, finding our way in this lifestyle we both need and choose. I am greatly looking forward to meeting you and others when I can make it over. I appreciate the words you put here on this site as they help me in my own journey. Thank you for taking the time to share here, helping others like myself.

slave marsha,
i just read your message to SW Leather Weekend, Dec 2003, and i have to tell you, that that could have been myself speaking. All the way down to the words yoiu quoted from Ruth to Master Jim, which were what my Master and i had engraved on O/our wedding rings. Only you say it much more eloquently than i ever could have thought about saying. And i have only been a slave for the past about 6 years, it's been something i have always wanted. Thanks again.

Dear slave rena and submissive_4u2001,

Thanks so much for your comments. i don't know about the two of you, but too often, i feel like i'm alone in the world in trying to live as a slave. It helps me tremendously to know there are others out there!

And submissive1_4u2001... i'll be seeing slave caroline in just a couple of weeks! Now we just need to get you over here to the States. (How about South Plains Leatherfest-International Master/slave Weekend in February?!)

Warmly,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

slave marsha,

Thank you for your warm words. Slave caroline always speaks so highly of her leather family and i know she misses you when she is here. She has been trying to get me over there but finances and time have just not been right. There was some thought about the Festival in January but Master is not sure we can make it. i will talk to caroline when she is back about February (she is again over in the states and i'm looking forward to all the new stories she will have to tell me :)

i often feel very alone in the world. Only a very few people seem to understand what goes on inside my head. Slave caroline is wonderful in helping me sort through things when i go off the track and get lost. Master is the rock i cling to. His understanding, patience, and care keep me safe in what often seems to me a world gone mad. i really don't know what i would do without him. Muddle through i guess but i know i would feel only half alive.

Please give slave caroline big hugs for me when you see her again and my warmest to you all.

allspice

Hi. I'm Wolf Moon, a bi female Top/Master living in the midwest.

I joined your group because I know of slave marsha through another website and have, over the years, heard many good things about both Master Jim and her.

I was hoping to find others to share information, specifically about non-sexual slaves. My slave b and I are very close, but I have never been interested in using her sexually. I have known very few others with relationships like ours in our local groups and would really appreciate having the opportunity to discuss related issues with someone who understands and has been there.

Thank you for your time,
Wolf Moon

Mistress Wolf Moon, Ma'am,

Both my Master and another Master with whom i am blessed enough to be closely acquainted, have had relationships either past or present with slaves who served them unconditionally and yet without sexual
'complications', as i once heard it labeled.

If You would be interested in corresponding with either or both of them, please feel free to email me offlist at slavetraci@adelphia.net, and i will put You in touch with them both.

i have, in the past, served a Mistress without a sexual relationship, and served a gay leather Master with whom i shared many interests, but not a sexual connection. Relationships like those have both a very unique dynamic and are without some of the issues that at times can cloud the path of other relationships.

With Respect for Leather and those who have earned the right to wear it -

i am Master Trent's slave, traci


< replied-to message removed by QT >

Well, after our initial mailing and your kind response off list, and then hearing nothing from you in response to two different mailings, I can only assume the worst.

I will not bother anyone here again.

Sincerely disappointed,
Wolf

Dear Wolf Moon,

i apologize that no one responded to your post -- the posts from this list usually come to my email box, and then i alert Master Jim to them for Him (or me) to respond. i see several posts here that i've never seen before so i can only assume there's a glitch in the system somewhere. And as i am not aware of any private email from you, i'm afraid we've been the victims of the black hole of the Internet -- i don't know about anyone else, but i have a complete love/hate relationship it.

Master Jim or i do try to respond in some way to each post fairly quickly, but sometimes our travel schedule and other committments interfere. i'll also admit that the number of requests we receive makes it difficult for us to participate in too many extended email discussions, although again, He and i do try to respond as best we can.

Master Jim and i always are grateful for the others on the list who offer their knowledge and support, as Traci Gary did.

Again, i am sorry you did not receive a response to your post.

In service,
marsha
slave to Master Jim

I had responded to the original post, and had heard nothing past that - I had assumed that you had found others to help you with your search for guidance. Did I miss something, or possibly miss a post here? If so, I am sorry ... I try to stay on top of email correspondence at least every couple of days, but sometimes I miss one here and there. My Norton's tends to be a little overzealous now and then, too, and stuff in the "spam" folder doesn't get any attention.

If you had written to me, please accept my apology, and resend your original email if you're still looking for guidance.

I am very sorry ...

Respectfully,

Traci


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take --
But by the moments that take our breath away.

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Your topic of non-sexual Ownership.....is a very difficult one for me. Therefore it didnt appeal, that is not to say other topics you might want to discuss wouldnt.
monica

Your topic of non-sexual Ownership.....is a very difficult one for me. Therefore it didnt appeal, that is not to say other topics you might want to discuss wouldnt. i am not my Owners lover...we do not have a romantic relationship. She does however Own my sex & all else.
monica
Owned by Sharrin

Thank you all very much for your messages. I had replied twice offlist to Traci Gary's email, first explaining my situation and the second asking if she'd recieved the first, and heard nothing. I was surprised after her offer to give my email to two people she thought would be interested in discussing my issues, that she would suddenly stop writing.
I now realize, after some testing, that my email is being a bit flaky lately. Beyond that, I can't even get the list to load to reply directly from site. So, I want you to know that I appreciate your responses and will get back to you as soon as I can get this mess straightened out. I
Now I'm curious to see if this mail will go through. We'll see.

Thank you,

Wolf Moon


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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FYI

>From: "Catherine Gross" <notnilla@nyc.rr.com>
>Subject: [Leather_boy] Fundraising Contest for NOLA
>
>I asking for personal assistance in getting the word out about
>this. Please forward to all your lists. We really need to help
>these folks, they have suffered.
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
>Please distribute freely Media Inquiries:
>September, 2005 Victoria Gayton:
>victoriag530@alltel.net
> General Inquiries:
> Catherine Gross:
>notnilla@nyc.rr.com
>
>FUNDRAISING CONTEST ORGANIZED TO HELP 2 LEATHER CLUBS IN NEW ORLEANS
>
>Catherine Gross (FetishAuctioneer.com), Ms. Victoria, and Viola
>Johnson are sponsoring a fundraiser to help members of the New
>Orleans leather community. So many have lost everything in the wake
>of Katrina's devastating impact, and we want to help them rebuild
>their lives and communities. While many individuals and
>organizations are contributing their time, money and support to the
>relief effort, it is our hope that a concerted group effort will
>enable us to offer even more to extended members of our leather
>family who are in desperate need.
>
>This fundraiser will be in the form of a contest, which will be open
>to clubs, events and e-mail lists. The group contributing the
>largest collective donation will win a basket stocked full of erotic
>goodies from Fetish Auctioneer, valued at $250.00. All funds
>collected will be split 50/50 between two major leather clubs in New
>Orleans: Lords of Leather and N.OB.L.E. Both clubs are still
>attempting to locate all of their members, and they assume, due to
>the location of their event and/or play spaces, that they have lost
>everything; in addition, some members of both clubs have lost
>everything they own. Funds will be distributed by the respective
>officers of both clubs to those members with the greatest need. The
>contest will run from September 7, 2005 through October 20, 2005.
>
>Donations will be accepted through a special Pay Pal account.
>Everyone donating is asked to list their e-mail list name, event
>name or local club in the "message" section. Totals will be
>monitored and tallied by Catherine's assistant, Jen, via an Excel
>spreadsheet which will be updated daily.
>
>For information about how to make a donation, to see current
>donations, or to get details on the prize basket being donated by
>Fetish Auctioneer, visit:
><http://www.fetishauctioneer.com/nolacharit...t;http://www.fetish
auctioneer.com/nolacharity/nola.htm
>The winner of the basket will be announced on October 21, 2005, via
>press release.
>
>Our club brothers and sisters in New Orleans are in need of our help
>and support, so please help us get the word out by distributing this
>release to any e-mail lists or other contacts you might have!
>
>Catherine Gross
><Http://www.BDSMClasses.com>Http://www.BDSMClasses.com
>Http://www.Fetishauctioneer.com
><Http://www.SELeatherFest.com>Http://www.SELeatherFest.com




Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take --
But by the moments that take our breath away.

Wanted Gay Men of all ages to join a Gay Mens Retreat and Newsletter, it offers lasting lifetime friendships, potential lovers as well as a way to full fill your needs that everyman has on the inside, come join this private gay mens retreat called Sir's retreat located up in Siskiyou County, and newsletter for Members only send a Sase and $100.00 Money Orders to;
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I need help. I know that the readers of the board have a lot of experience and wisdom to share.

A previous Dominant of mine is meddling in my present life and continuously revealing my given name as well as my partners full given name in his blog. He has even made comments to my partner's very vanilla blog. The comments revealed very intimate details of my life with my previous Dominant. By making the comment, he left a link back to his own blog which reveals even more personal information about my life. He has outed me repeatedly to my blog reading friends.

In addition to this, he contacted my partner's employer regarding our personal life. I can only assume that it was an effort to damage my partners career possibilities and credibility. The Dominant in question is not willing to discuss the matter with me in person. I am not willing to discuss this matter by email for fear that the email itself will be made public. I am at a loss as to how I might be able to keep my personal life private and move on. Any ideas?

Have you spoken with your former Dominant and asked him/her to stop?
Does Your current Dominant have a plan on handling this? Do you have permission to take action on this from you Dominant?
Is your former Dominant a part of the local community? If so then i suggest that you talk to members of that community and see if you can get some peers to talk some sense into the Dominant.
Secondly, i suggest you make your blog private to friends only or speak with the blog management to have Your former Dominant blocked from posting on your blog or ask them what legal options you have.
Good luck

alex,

My former Dominant is unwilling to discuss the matter with me. My current partner and I don't have much of a plan to handle this. I have discussed the matter with a well respected Dominant in the community and the indiscreet, full name posts had stopped for awhile but started again. I didn't want to make a big deal of this in the community because I felt that it would damage his reputation.

I have no desire to smear him, but he is really making an effort to damage my life. He is active in the local community. I just want the nonsense to stop. Maybe the answer IS to bring the issue forward to the leaders of my local organization.

My blog is gone. The fun I got out of it is far outweighed by the privacy issues it creates.

I appreciate your thoughts and ideas.

In Leather,
cloud watcher

It sounds as though you are thoe one being smeared if this person is outing you to your emplyers etc. and there is nothing wrong getting respected members of the community to mediate for you, in my opinion.

PS. You don't have to tell the whole community. Just a few reasonable members who aren't in for the gossip. But i think that there are community standards that we should all uphold to protect each other from harm and these warrant community action But you may want to clear this action with your Dominant.