Ken,
Thanks for the reply. &#A0;I will check the web site to see if I can find my South family. Aloha,Sarah

--- On Thu, 11/12/09, QT - Samuel South <qtopic-22-uJAa2jfqLRXtk@quicktopic.com> wrote:
From: QT - Samuel South <qtopic-22-uJAa2jfqLRXtk@quicktopic.com>
Subject: Samuel South & Sons
To: "QT topic subscribers" <qtopic-subs@quicktopic.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 12:33 AM

�A;�A;�A;
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hello Sarah

I am afraid that it most unlikely that there is any connection between the South families - "my Souths" lived for many generations (since 1570 at least) in the villages of north east Hertfordshire with no connection with either Shropshire or history of emigration to USA.

Also, there are many South families in the UK - have a look at
http://www.britishsurnames.co.uk/ for further info.

Regards

Ken Barker

Hello,

I have been working on my paternal grandmother's family tree. She was born Sarah Helen South in 1877 in Oswestry, Shropshire. Her father was William South, born in Doncaster in 1854. His father was Samuel William South, but I don't know his birth information. William South emigrated to Hawaii in the 1890's. There are several of his descendants still here, as well as in other parts of the US mainland. Would anyone know if this fits into the South family tree on your site? My grandmother was under the impression that there was only one South family in England. She also said that there was a Samuel South buried in Westminster Abbey. Is he a relation?

Thanks for any help that you can give me.

Tom

Thanks for the address.

At the time I found the clip on the Pathe site you could apply for a video and also download a copy - have just had a quick look at the site again and it does not immediately appear that this facility is now available although I think that you may have to register.

I could cut a cd/dvd to send to you or as a email attachment (so long as you are on broadband)

Ken

Ken

Dads address is 67, Maddles, Letchworth, Herts. SG6 2QY.
Where did you get a tape of the Pathe film, are they for sale somewhere?

Tom

Hello Tom

Good to hear from you and to learn that your father is "still going strong". I think that I overlooked sending him a copy of the book that I wrote about the South family and their pottery. Please can you remind me of his address either via the email contact on the website or to ken.barker1@btinternet.com

Thanks for the info about Pathe newsreel which I already have - I did take a tape of it when I visited your father but his video player was not working at the time.

Ken

Hello Ken,
Tom Brown here do you remember?
You may already have spotted this but just in case you haven't,
On your google search type in 'Pathe News' and when you get to the site search for 'Flower Pots'
It's a little film they recorded in 1951 at Souths.
At the begining there is a foot on a shovel, thats my dads' foot!!!!!

Tom
p.s. Dad's fit and well and nearing 91 now.

Hi Dennis Thank You for your message. Have now confirmed that Edith's mothers family name is Waldock

Kind Regards Peter.

Edited by author 21-05-2009 07:56 AM
Hi Peter

This may be your Edith now listed on BMD - was her mother's family named Waldock?
Births Dec 1920 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------
Bysouth Edith G Waldock Royston 3a 1336

Addition: Sorry just found that you believe she was born later around 1930 - nothing showing as yet.

The following Edith b1910 her parents were Frederick James Bysouth and Edith Jane Brown
Births Jun 1910 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------
BYSOUTH Edith Rochford 4a 735


Have you also checked Libby's site for other Bysouth's? Her site is growing daily but she is not entering details, I believe, on people born after 1910.

http://www.shade.id.au/Bysouth/Bysouth.htm

Regards

Dennis

Thank you for this information I have recently been visited
by my cousin ( Fred Bysouth'sGrandaughter) who lives in Australia who has confirmed your research. Greatful thanks for your help but I am still trying to find an Edith Greta Bysouth
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Message for Peter Judd
Started again doing a bit more research on May Coote and Frederick Bysouth.

Marriages Sep 1907
-------------------------------------------------------------- ------------
BYSOUTH Frederick Samuel Royston 3a 1437
COOTE May Royston 3a 1437

I believe May Coote's parents were Joseph Coote b1859 and Susan Hagger b1856. This Susan in 1861 and 1871 censuses below (Hagger mistranscribed Dagger in 1861)

1861
Elizabeth Dagger abt 1828 Therfield, Hertfordshire, England Wife Royston, Cambs
William Dagger abt 1831 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Head Royston,
Eliza J Dagger, abt 1851 Therfield, Hertfordshire, England Daughter Royston,
Julia A Dagger, abt 1853 Therfield, Hertfordshire, England Daughter Royston,
Susan Dagger, abt 1856 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Daughter Royston,
George Dagger, abt 1859 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Son Royston,

1871 census
Name William Hagger Age 43
Estimated Year of Birth 1828
Occupation BREWERS DRAY MAN
Address Back Street
District Royston, Royston
Birth Place Therfield
Birth County HERTFORDSHIRE
willaim 43
elizabeth 42
susan 14
george 12
william 9
egbert 4

As this William Hagger b1828 is from Therfied he is in the HALS Parochial documents

Hagger and Hagger-Wood families also have further ties with other Bysouth/South branches.

Have you already researched this?

Regards

Dennis

Hi I am a Bysouth and maybe one of those you are looking for! I hope I will be able to help. Tracey Bysouth.

========================================
Message Received: Apr 26 2009, 10:44 PM
From: "QT - Peter Judd"
To: "QT topic subscribers"
Cc:
Subject: Samuel South & Sons


< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your reassuring message, it's good to know they are out there - somewhere.

Regards

Lyndsey

I am listed on the South message board and am currently searching for Bysouths but seeing your request for infomation on Freemans I may be able to help. I knew a Freeman family when our own family lived in Enfield between 1939and1953. They were near neibours to us. I understood that the family had come from a village in Hertfordshire many years ago. Some of the male members of the family were agricultural workers on a local estate.I hope that you are successful in your search

Peter.
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

I hope you don't mind me leaving a non-related South message on this very interesting site that I found whilst searching for my Freeman ancestors.
My 2xGt Grandparents James Freeman (b1823) and Jane Robinson (b1821) lived in Meesden, Hertfordshire. Six of their eight children moved to the Edmonton/Tottenham/Enfield areas yet I never see the name Freeman mentioned on websites or message boards boards I look at.

Hoping it might ring a bell with someone!

Regards

Lyndsey

Hello Andy

I shall reply direct to your email address

Regards

Ken Barker

Edited by author 26-02-2009 10:47 PM
i am the great grand son of goerge and aliceand wouldlike any information and pictures please andy.margrove@hotmail.co.uk

Hi. I am a new(ish) family researcher and I have been looking around your website with great interest. As you may have realised I am a 'Bysouth' and I am very glad to chat with anyone who is related to the 'Bysouth' family or who is researching themselves.

Hi Ken,
In responce to your question about the size of the strong boxes they are 2 1/2ft X 1 1/2ft and 2ft X 1ft both with keys

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for your E-Mail The infomation that you have sent is very interesting. I am now in touch with Lilians daughter in Australia and she could very well furnish me with her maiden name and possibly verify it as Coote. However our main interest now is to try and contact a woman with the maiden name of Edith Greta Bysouth who was possibly born in the 1930's and who possibly lived in the North London area in the 1950's. Hoping that you can help us here.

Kind Regards/Peter
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hi Peter

This Bysouth line is new to me (I may have Rose but would need more information to confirm) - to help find the line if you have details (if possible) of Lilian's parents - do you have a marriage cert handy for name of her father? I assume that Lilian would have have been born c1910-1915 to have married in 1936/37 and her birth may be this one from BMD

Births Jun 1913 (98%)
------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- --------
Bysouth Lilian M Coote Edmonton 3a 1204

This would mean that her mothers maiden name was Coote.

This may be the brother but cannot find details on the sister Lena
Births Jun 1908 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- --------
Bysouth Gordon William Edmonton 3a 637

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Dennis

-----------------------
Dennis South
Social Work Department
University of Hull

************************************************************** ************************** To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html *************************************************************** ************************* < replied-to message removed by QT >

My mothers Family name was Atkins. The Atkins family lived in Somerset Rd. Tottenham N17.My mothers younger brother Edward married Lilian Bysouth in 1936 or 1937.Initially they lived in Dowsett Rd. which is between Bruce Grove and White Hart Lane., Edward then started a grocery business in Walthamstow. Lilians father was a builder who during the 1930's built many houses in the Cat Hill area which I believe is part of Barnet. Lilian had a sister, Lena and a brother named Gordon. During the Blitz Edward was drafted into the RAF and Lilian and the children were evacuated to Royston where they lived with Lilian's Aunt Rose. Strangley enough my wife has some connection with an Edith Greta Bysouth (Maiden name)who was probably born in the 1930's and was probably livibg in the North London area in the 1950's.My wife would like to know if she is alive and well.

My mothers Family name was Atkins.The Atkins family lived in Somerset Road, Tottenham N17. My mother's youngest brother Edward Married Lilian Bysouth in 1936 or 1937. Initially they lived in Dowsett Rd. which is between Bruce Grove and White Hart Lane. Edward then started a grocery business in Wathamstow. Lilian's Father was a builder who during the 1930's built many houses in the Cat Hill area which I believe is part of Barnet. Lilian had a sister names Lena and a brother Gordon. During the Blitz Edward was drafted into the RAF and Lilian and the children were evacuated to Royston where they lived with Lilian's Aunt Rose.Strangely enough my wife has some connection to an Edith Greta Bysouth who was probably born in the 1930'and was probably living in North London in the 1950's. My wife would like to know if she is alive and well. My email No.is, sir.judd@virgin.net

Hi Dennis & Ken, Sorry to have kept you so long without contact, I have unfortunately been without a computer. Ater speaking to you last I have uncovered a very sad event in the lives of Florence Bysouth, my grandmother. William Bysouth, DOB 1837,(florence's father) married Emma Manning in 1859. They had 8 children, Walter, Frederick, Coletta, Agnes, Theresa, Henry, Florence and Ruth. Gt grandfather William died in 1877 age 44, leaving Emma and the children destitute. In the 1881 Census Emma was in Edmonton Workhouse and the four youngest children were in Edmonton Union School, which is the childrens' section of the workhouse. What I cannot understand is, being a member of such an affluent family, how could they stand by and let this happen to members of their own family?
The older children went into service or logings around the Tottenham area. My heart ached for Florence, she was eight years old at that time. Florence and George Merry, my grandparents married in 1894, and after giving birth to my mother Rose, sisters Florence and Daisy, and brothers, Henry, John and George, she sadly died in 1917, two years after my aunt Daisy was born. I appeared in this world in 1926 and feel cheated that I never had the privilege of meeting my grandmother. George Merry, my grandad, died in 1928, so I never had the pleasure of knowing him either. Life was hard for the poor working class, life was snatched away at such a young age. They were called the 'Good old days' but it was only good for the wealthy, not for the poor. Please don't think I am a bitter, twisted old lady, I am far from it. I have lived on this earth for almost 81 years and I have had a wonderful life and appreciate every aspect of modern technology.
After doing eighteen months of research, I appreciate life as it is twice as much now and take nothing for granted. Kind regards to you both. You are doing a good job. Joan

Hello Theresa

Delighted to hear that you are visiting the UK.

I could take you on a tour around the villages of Barley, Reed and Barkway where the Souths originated if you are interested.

I live near St Albans in south west Hertfordshire which is about 45 mins drive from the villages.

Suggest that you contact me via the email contact on the website.
Regards

Ken

Hello Ken

I am a descendant of John b1827 & Sarah (Unwin) South who came to Australia in 1853. My husband and I will be visiting England in September. We intend visiting Barley and surrounds. Can you give us some hints as to how to make the most of our visit?
Theresa

hallo ken sorry but i can't find your web site, are the people still interested in the strong boxes if so you can contact me by email at rogeryoung50@hotmail.co.uk Or is there any other person interested in them. many thanks Roger.

Hello Roger

My interest arises because Pedley May & Fletcher were the solicitors of the South family over many years. Arthur Raisen became a partner and last year I was in touch with his (now elderly) son who could possibly be interested in the boxes. Rather than exchanging personal details on the message board I suggest that you contact me via the email contact on the website.
I assume that the uncashed cheque (rather out of time I think!) is not from a member of the South family.

Regards

Ken Barker

Hi everybody, I hope I'm not intruding but I have in my possesion two 'Strong Boxes' One that once belonged to a 'MR A J Raisen Esq' and another belonging to a 'Pedley, May and Fletcher Solicitors' in this box contains an un-cashed cheque for the sum of £15.00 dated from the 1890s Both boxes are still in working order and include the keys

Hello Ruth

Good to hear from you.

There is a piece in the Article Section of the web site (which you may have already seen) about the connection between the South and Bysouth families.
I have the Official Guide for Tottenham of the late 1930s which carries an advert for the Bysouth masonry business together with a brief description of the firm. I also have various "tit-bits" about the Bysouths collected during my own researches. If you would like copies please email me via the email contact on the site and I can send them to you as attachments.

Regards

Ken

hello Ken,
I was whiling an idle hour or so on the net and noticed a mention of my grandfathers stonemason's yard in Tottenham which then lead me to your site.I'm one of those infamous(?) Bysouths, and I'm sure that
I can pester my father for more information about our branch of the Bysouths. He has vivid memories of the yard. I also have a list of a few of the buildings that my grandfather worked on,if it is of interest to anyone. Samuel lived out in Enfield , in a house called Stonehenge!Who says that the Bysouths have no sense of humour!
best wishes, Ruth Bysouth

Raymond

Good to hear from you.

There is the possibility that George Moody appears in 2 photos on website – please see
Update 18 – Firms Outing 1928
Update 30 – Workforce circa 1895

If you think that he is in one of them I can send you better copies than on the site – suggest you make contact via the email contact on the website.

I also have 2 1927 photos of the potmakers shed and there is always the chance that he appears there.

I am most interested in any stories of your grandfather’s time at the potteries that been passed down. In my reply to Frances on the message board (message 119) I did suggest that she contact me but unfortunately she has not done so and may not have seen it. If you are in contact with her perhaps you could pass this on.

Thanks for the information that you have provided it all helps to build up the picture and history of South & Sons

Regards

Ken Barker

Like Frances Sansom, my second cousin, whose message is also here, I am a Moody by ancestry. Our great-grandfather, George Edward Moody, was a cabinet-maker, wood-turner and general dealer, who moved from Shoreditch to Edmonton and then to Elsden Road Tottenham. He had thirteen children. My grandfather George Moody, born in 1871 - the third George since William Moody, who moved from Hursley in Hampshire to Shoreditch about 1801 - spent all his working life at South's, and must have been there almost from the opening in Lordship Lane in 1886. In the 1920s and 1930s he was living in Paxton Road Tottenham, opposite Lordship Lane, by the Spurs ground. Sometime in the 1930s he moved with his wife Emily and two then unmarried daughters to Richmond Road Chingford. He retired with the temporary cessation of work at the outbreak of war, and died in 1947. His brothers Arthur, Ernest and Walter and I believe other members of the family worked there at one time and it was a family joke that it should have been called Moody's rather than South's. Ernest was Frances's grandfather and also worked there all his working life. Arthur moved to Coventry, and other brothers were Walter and Percy. Like my mother's family, the Petts, we have travelled the usual route - in from the country about 1800 to Shoreditch, then by way of St Pancras to Tottenham and then entirely away from London. It might be worth looking for information on the Working Mens' Mission also in Paxton Road Tottenham, which played a large part in the life of the family.
Raymond Moody, from Burford, Oxfordshire.

Hello Roy

Thanks for your message - I will reply to the email that you have sent via the website.

Ken

Hello Ken
I enjoyed your site, but I am a little confused. My Mother used to tell me that she lived at Devonshire Hill farm, her father was George Margrove and I have him on a census return as a journeyman potter. Mother was born at Ellenborough Villas but obviously remembers her time at the farm with some affection, she had 13 brothers and sisters, her sister Hilda was married from the farm.

Is it possible that they did actually live in the main house or were there other properties attached. You say that your ancestor took up residence in 1917 so I imagine that the Margroves must have left by then.

Please do you have any information on Margroves living in the house. I would be very gateful for any information you may have.

Very many thanks

Hello Valerie
Further research has established that the small pottery established in 1868 was in fact in Angel Road about halfway between the junctions of Fore Street and Dysons Lane (later Road). The 1884 Edmonton Rating records list the premises as “Cottage Stables and Pot Manufactory”. When the business was transferred to White Hart Lane in 1886 I would assume that pot making was discontinued on the Edmonton site. The site is probably beneath the carriageway of the North Circular Road!
As a matter of interest the 1894 OS maps show several nurseries around the junction of Angel Road and Dysons Lane.

I am afraid that I have no info about the Radley family
Regards
Ken Barker

When and where was the pottery situated in Dysons Road. I used to live there at number 50 many years ago and was not aware of its history.

Also does anyone know the Radley Family who lived in Tottenham in the 1930's Ada and David Radley in particular and their children.

Regards

Valerie

To Ed Smith

I have tried to reply to reply to your email on three occassions - each has been returned as not delivered. In the hope that you may check this message board the text of the replay was:

 do not know of a book specifically about the war in Wood Green but here are references in the following:
 
"Wood Green Past" by Albert Pinching (£15.95) published in 2000 by Historical Publications ISBN 0 948667 64 8. It is an interesting illustrated history of the district.
 
"Haringey at War" by Deborah Hedgecock & Robert Waite (£12.99) published in 2004 by Tempus Publishing ISBN 0 7524 3297 4. A pictorial history.
 
"Britain in Old Photographs - Tottenham Hornsey & Wood Green" by Chris Protz (£9.99) published in 1998 by Sutton Publishing ISBN 0 7509 1295 2. Includes a chapter "The Boroughs in Wartime"
 
There is another book "Letters from the Home Front" published by the Edmonton Hundred Historical Society cost about £3-£5. I cannot immediately lay my hands on my copy. It comprises letters sent by a family living in Cambridge Gardens (just off Great Cambridge Road) to their son in the forces. It really does convey the lives of an ordinary family in the district during the Blitz and the spirit of the time. I think some places in WG are mentioned.
 
Hope this helps.

Ken Barker

does anyone have stories or photos of the keys family of tottenham
 
ericjimirory@ hotmail .com

Keith

Unfortunately attachments cannot be sent via the message board.

Please could resend to samuelsouth@btinternet.com

Thanks

Ken

Hi Ken
Thankyou for your email.
Yes I am from Rugby,my Grandfather moved here after vacating Devonshire Hill Farm. I am not sure whether his parents continued living there after he moved away. I have visited Bruce Museum in Tottenham and have copies of photographs of the area,which match up rather well with photos in the family collection. I would very much like to see the Arial photograph you have as I am very interested in the topography of the area. I have attached some photos, the first one is of my Grandfather with a motorbike in Devonshire Hill Lane in the 1920s. The second is of my grandfather (Albert Hayhoe) with his father (Samuel Hayhoe) outside of Devonshire Hill Farm, in think about 1920. The third photo is of the pond and the entrance to the farm, no date. Regards Keith

Hello Keith

Great to receive your message.

I assume that you are "one of the cousins who live in Rugby" that Sarah mentioned in one of her emails to me. I did send Sarah several photos of Devonshire Hill Farm, including an aerial photograph, together with a brief history and details of electoral registers. Were these passed on to you? If not would you like further copies?

I would very much like to have a copy of the photo that you mentioned. i am researching the history of the development of the area which was arguably the last rural area of of Tottenham and any info by way photos etc would be most appreciated.

Regards

Ken Barker

My 2nd cousin Sarah Olver told me about this site. My Family lived at Devonshire Hill farm until the 1930s their name is Hayhoe. I am sure my grandad Albert Hayhoe looked after pigs and horses until he moved to Warwickshire in aprox 1936. I have a photo of him sitting in a field with the farm in the background.
I have visited Devonshire hill lane recently,and have been able with the help of old maps been able to locate the area of the farm. I have taken some photos of the area as it is now.

Regards

Keith Holmes

Edited by author 09-10-2006 04:12 PM
 Thank you Pat. So far this seems to be just a coincidence, but you never know.! Most of our Moodies were born in Shoreditch - apart from the younger members - of the family of 13 in total ! The parents uprooted and moved their young family out of the slums to the 'countryside' of Tottenham. Frances

Hello Frances

I can understand your and Ken's delight in finding an ancestor on his website. I wonder if you know where Earnest and Walter Moody were born. I ask because a Moody born around the same time - Thomas Moody, born 1871 at Bury Street, Enfield - married into the Cole family of the pottery next door to Souths. Could just be a coincidence or they could be brothers.
Good luck with your research.

Pat Cryer
www.colepotteries.btinternet.co.uk




  --
  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
  Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 2006-09-29 < replied-to message removed by QT >

Hello Frances

I am really delighted to receive your message and that you found the website of interest.

Earlier this year I published a book about the South family and their pottery (South from Barley) and the reminiscences of your family would have been great addition. I particularly liked the story about the wedgers – in the early days of the pottery before electric light the atmosphere must have been “spooky”. I must say that I have never heard of the bodies! Most intriguing! Also most interested in your comments about setting up in competition – I am making a study of the North London pottery industry and any info on this would be most helpful.

More information about the book is on the website – click on the flowerpot calendar on the home page – perhaps I could exchange a copy for a copy of your relative’s book.

My mother, Joyce, was the youngest of Samuel(2)’s eight children and in post war years made up and paid out the wages on Friday afternoons at the pottery and sometimes as a boy I used to accompany her. The name Moody does ring a strong bell but I am afraid I have no further info about him. Some time ago I was contacted by the daughter of another potter – Les Woor – and have also visited Bert Brown who worked in the clay pit at the time your grandfather would have been there.

What photo does you grandfather appear in? I could send you a better copy than appears on the website. I also have a larger selection of pottery photographs and he may appear elsewhere. Also have a 1951 film clip of the pottery downloaded from the Pathe website.

I am now researching the development of the area around White Hart Lane and Devonshire Hill Lane which was, arguably, the last rural piece of Tottenham – I assume that your family lived close to the pottery and there may be further memories in this regard.

I would very much like to discuss matters with you further – can I suggest that you email via the email contact on the website (samuelsouth@btinternet.com).

Hoping to hear from you

Regards

Ken Barker

Edited by author 29-09-2006 08:15 PM
I think I've spotted my Grandpa in the photos on the wonderful archives on the website! I don't suppose names were recorded? He was Ernest Moody who made flowerpots non-stop all his working life - as the callouses on his forearms testified! Like Samuel South, he was born in 1876 and he retired at 75years of age (lived till 1959)! His brother Walter also worked there loyally , although they had been asked by 'friends' to set up in competition (which 'friends' did and enticed other Moody Brothers to work for them!) He used to tell his children (6) that he didn't earn much money 'because it fell through the bottom of the pots'. Poor old chap - good job he did't have any vices and had a frugal wife! This info. comes from his daughter's little book of family reminiscences "Sis's Tribe".
She remembers visiting the potteries, open to public on Good Fridays., and remembers her father telling of a hanged man and a murdered woman found on the site!! She also tells of the 'wedgers' scaring the potters one Halloween by making ghostly candle-lit heads to stare through the windows at them - made from turnips stolen from a field nearby!
My sister and I are now researching our family history and may even write a new book which could be called 'from Shoreditch to Hove - via Tottenham!'
I wish I had more photos. especially as he and his brothers were keen enthusiasts, but the website is a brilliant find. Thank you all. Frances.

As some of you know there is a familly website showing some of the details of the Brights in Barley. This is found at http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/graemeb/. If anyone wants a GEDCOM file you can email me using the link on this page

Dennis,
I think Amelia Bright who married William chuck may be the daughter of Robert Bright and Sarah Purser (sister to Henry who married Sarah Abraham, and my Robert). I found her and William in the 1851 Census, and her age is given as 48 years, which would assume her birth about 1803 in Barley. Robert and Sarah had a daughter 'Milly', which can be short for Amelia, Chr. 18 July 1802 in Barley, which I have not been able to find any further info on.
My email is shell39368@yahoo.com.au
I would be very interested in exchanging further info with you.

Regards,
Michelle

Michelle

Will be pleased to pass on message via Samuel South email address - will be away from end of week so best to email asap.

Dennis

I have some enquiries about Chuck and Bright families and will be in touch on my return

Ken

Hi Michelle

If you are able to give me an e-mail address (or ask Ken, through his sites e-mail address - samuelsouth@btinternet.com, if he would be kind enough to pass it on - as this reply is open to all subscribers) I'll then send you a report on the Bright's from information that I have.
1871 census for Henry Chuck (William Chuck and Amelia Bright's son: Henry Chuck 37 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Head Barley Hertfordshire Sarah A Chuck (nee South) 37 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Wife Barley Hertfordshire
Anne M Chuck 2 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Daughter Barley
Hertfordshire
Henry Chuck 15 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Son Barley Hertfordshire Henry M Chuck 10 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Daughter Barley Hertfordshire Isabella Chuck 12 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Daughter Barley Hertfordshire Joseph Chuck 16 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Son Barley
Hertfordshire
Joseph Whitmore 50 Royston, Hertfordshire, England Lodger Barley Hertfordshire
Regards

Dennis

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 01:44:07 GMT QT - Michelle
<qtopic+22-uJAa2jfqLRXtk@quicktopic.com> wrote:


----------------------------------------
Dennis E South
Email: D.E.South@hull.ac.uk
University of Hull

************************************************************** ************************** To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html *************************************************************** ************************* < replied-to message removed by QT >

Hi Dennis,
I did find Amelia Bright, who married William chuck a while ago, and she is still in my 'unlinked' folder too, as I have not yet found where she fits in to the tree. Will let you know if that changes.
As for Henry Bright and Sarah Abraham, I have a total of 13 children to them, with only 2 of them (Emma and James) linked to marriages. This is a relatively new addition to my tree, and I am still working on them. Any help is gratefully accepted.
Regards,
Michelle

Dear Michelle

I have Emma Bright's parents as Henry Bright and Sarah Abraham - of their 10 children I only have two that I don't have a marriage linked to.

I also have a Amelia Bright born c1802 who married William Chuck (have a bit on this family group)- have you got this Amelia in your tree? I don't have her parents names but as she married William in Barley in 1820 could well be related but need the link. Their son Henry married Sarah Anne South (Ken's 2nd gt grandaunt). Would appreciate any additional information you have.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Dennis

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 03:07:58 GMT QT - Michelle
<qtopic+22-uJAa2jfqLRXtk@quicktopic.com> wrote:


----------------------------------------
Dennis E South
Email: D.E.South@hull.ac.uk
University of Hull

************************************************************** ************************** To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html *************************************************************** ************************* < replied-to message removed by QT >

Hi Chris & Samuel
up until recently, I knew very little of the Bright family myself, and had them in my 'too hard' basket. I have since managed to trace them back a further two generations to Robert Bright and Sarah Purser (Abraham and Emma's Grandparents), with a suspicion that Robert was actually from Hinxton in Cambridgeshire, moving to Hertford before his marriage. Is this far from Barley? The names and dates seem to fit, but so far, no proof as yet.

Michelle

Michelle

Ah, so that's where Abraham BRIGHT went to after he married Jane HOWARD. Like Ken, I haven't looked at the Barley BRIGHT family in any depth, but I have been collecting whatever information is easily available about them (such as Abraham & Jane's marriage in the Vital Records Index). Emma BRIGHT is my 3 x gt grandmother, so I would be interested in exchanging information on the Barley BRIGHT family with you (and anyone else who reads this). Regards, Chris

Michelle

Good to hear from you.

I have yet to research the early life of the South and Bright family in Barley in any depth - I would be interested in any information that you may have.

There is more information about the descendants of Joseph and Emma in my recently published book South From Barley - see website for details - let me know if you would like a copy.

Ken Barker

Congratulations on such an informative site. I came accross it whilst searching for info on my 'Bright' ancestors from Barley, Hertfordshire. Emma Bright (Joseph's first wife) was a cousin of my Greatx3 Grandfather Abraham Bright, who migrated to Australia in 1855.
I look forward to reading more about Emma and Joseph's descendants.
Keep up the great work.

Regards,
Michelle

Dennis

Well done!!

Do not need full chart at the present time but would be interested in the identity of the communion ancestor and the relationship to my g g grandfather Joseph South (1822-1906.

Ken

Hi Ken

I have sent details of Joan link to our tree to her. You are 5th cousin 2x removed to one of her parents. Awaiting details of which one of the six children Joan was born to. If you want details of this branch please get back to me.

Best wishes

Dennis

Hello Joan

I have little doubt that there is a connection - the Souths and Bysouths were one and the same family - see piece by Tom Doig in Article section on the website - Nuthamstead is a small hamlet next to Barkway which was one of the "South" villages.

Unfortunately I have not researched the earlier generations of the family in any great depth at the present time - I think that Dennis South, another correspondent, will have more info regarding the family chart - if he does not post a reply in the next day or so I shall contact him.

There was a Bysouth family in Tottenham who owned a well known Stonemasons.
I am afraid I have no knowledge of a Tom Bysouth - in my researches into the pottery industry I have not come across any reference to a pottery in Edmonton operating circa 1928.

Sorry that have not been able to be of much help but as said earlier there will be a connection.

regards

Ken Barker

Theresa

Yes the South & Bysouth families are related - have a look at the "South/Bysouth Connection" by Tom Doig in the Article section on the website.

Also a Bysouth descendant - Irene Robinson - has a website - http://www.btinternet.com/~irene.robinson/index.html

As you say Bysouth was a well known firm of stone masons in Tottenham.

Ken Barker

I was married a Bysouth.(North London) I have one daughter from my marriage. My daughter has 2 sons (Their fathers name). (North London) My Ex husband now has two children one being a son (Who will carry on the name)( They live in the South of England) My ex father in laws father came from a large Bysouth family. I understand that the Bysouths on that side were stone masons and buthchers from Edmonton. There is a large building in Edmonton that still has the name Bysouth etched into the brickwork in big bold letters.

Hello Saragh

The only reference to your family is in notes that I made from conversations with my mother Joyce Barker nee South who died in 2001

"Devonshire Hill Farm – demolished before WW2 – occupied by Hayhoes – sold sweets from table outside farmhouse"

For some reason I gained the impression that they had been tenants for a number of years. I do intend to research further into the more recent history of the farm upto to the demolition of the farmhouse which would include the electoral registers - these would show between what dates the Hayhoes were registered as electors at this address.

The registers are kept in the archives at Bruce Castle Museum in Tottenham - there will be a delay before I inspect the records.

I do have photos of the farmhouse including a 1935 aerial photo which, would of course, be at the time that your family were living there. If you send me an email by clicking on the "Contact" button on the website I can email them to you on receipt of your email address.

The verandah you mention was at the rear of the farmhouse -I would be most interested in any family memories that have been passed down and would also appreciate copies of the photos.

Regards

Ken

I also found this site by chance as I am researching my family tree. My Great-Grandparents lived at Devonshire Hill Farm (not exactly sure of the dates but lived there until the house was demolished in about 1937/38? My mother remembers going there as a little girl. Their name was Hayhoe and they lived there with their six children.
We have a couple of photographs of them standing outside the house (one is in front of a veranda). Would there be any records of the tenants who lived in the house?

Edited by author 10-12-2005 11:26 AM
I came across your site quite by chance and have found it so interesting. My gt gt grandfather and gt grandfather were both carman, and lived in Edmonton. Your site is the first I have come across that showed the rules for Carman. I have found it so interesting to read through the site. By the way, my ancestors were also refugees from Hertfordshire. Regards......... Lyn

Linda

Pleased you enjoyed the site.

My information about the Curtis Family is limited but in 1997 I was sent some detail by an American descendant of Sir William Curtis including his obituary that appeared in the March 1829 edition of the Gentleman’s Magazine. Co-incidentally his younger brother, Rev. Charles Curtis had died 6 days earlier and his obit. was also included. It says that “Mr. Curtis’s second wife was Sarah, fourth daughter of Thomas Wilkieson, esq., merchant of Rotterdam, and by her he had, 7. Thomas, 8. Henry and 9. George”

I assume that this is “your” Thomas.

She also sent a leaflet advertising an exhibition "The Life and Times of Alderman Sir William Curtis M.P." held in 1997 at the

Guildhall Library
Aldermanbury
London EC2 2EJ

It may be that they have archives about the Curtis family

I hope that this gives you some leads. If you would like a copy of the complete obit. send me an email via the Contact button on the website and I can reply with the attachment.

Ken Barker

Have really enjoyed your website and can't imagine how much time has gone into it.

My interest is in the Curtis family, particularly Thomas Curtis who was born some time before 1830 and nephew to Sir William. I can't seem to find any info on him.

Is it a name you have come across in your research?

Thank you and keep up the good work.

I was just reading the article and thought its was pretty neat

Donald

No - I have enough trouble with English as it is!

Hi Kenneth, I've just been showing the folks here in Switzerland your website and they are very interested. Have you ever thought about getting it translated into German?

Donald

Dennis

Thanks for the info and for posting it on the message board

Ken

Hi Ken

Mistranscribed 1901 census for some more Bysouth family tree:

Albert H Brpouth abt 1894 Tottenham, London, England Son Tottenham Middlesex
Grace Brpouth abt 1870 Islington Wife Tottenham Middlesex
Samuel Brpouth abt 1873 Clapton, Middlesex, England Head Tottenham Middlesex
Samuel J Brpouth abt 1896 Tottenham, London, England Son Tottenham Middlesex

Samuel is a Stone Mason. Address is 589, Seven Sisters Road, Tottenham.

Believe Grace's maiden name Agutter see web:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/the.nook/charts/agutt400.htm

Best wishes
Dennis

I would like to get in touch with Edith Knight as I believe we are related. Can anyone help?

If she operates by email and would like to get in touch with me instead, I can give you my email address.

Sarah

Hi Ken
A bit more on George RS Bysouth b.1862
Annie Bysouth abt 1885 Hackney, Middlesex, England Daughter Hockley Essex
Daisy Bysouth abt 1889 Hackney, Middlesex, England Daughter Hockley Essex
Elizabeth Bysouth abt 1864 Hackney, Middlesex, England Wife Hockley Essex
George Bysouth 1862 Hackney, Middlesex, England Head Hockley Essex
George Bysouth abt 1886 Hackney, Middlesex, England Son Hockley Essex
Hilda Bysouth abt 1890 Southend, Essex, England Daughter Hockley Essex
John Bysouth abt 1892 Southend, Essex, England Son Hockley Essex
Robert Bysouth abt 1900 Hockley, Essex, England Son Hockley Essex
Thomas Bysouth abt 1898 Prittlewell, Essex, England Son Hockley Essex
George is a Builder
Source information: RG13/1677
Registration district: Rochford
Sub-registration district: Rayleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Folio: 23
Page: 21
Household schedule number: 137

to ken
  thanks for a point in the right direction,i do not no which one he worked for i do not actually no alot but thanks once again

Sarah

I am replying to your email directly

Ken Barker

Cheryl

Sorry, no info on Herbert Moore - do you know which pottery he worked for - South or Cole?

You might try leaving a message on the board of the Lower Edmonton website www.lower-edmonton.co.uk

Also, a phone call to the Enfield Local History Unit - 020 8379 2724 - to see if they hold the Edmonton Electoral Registers for Edmonton 1932 - could help to confirm how long he lived in Church Street

Regards

Ken Barker.

Hello everyone
Not a strictly 'South' question, but perhaps you can help. I have information about my family, the Fisks, mainly based in Edmonton/Tottenham, one of whom married one Harriet Frederica A Durant. Francis Fisk edited Skyrings Price Guide (a guide for builders) and Frederick Fisk's postcards show somewhere called Skeleton Horse, which I think might have been Skeleton House(?)which is where one of my family lived. High Road, Tottenham. Grateful for any info/links/pointer/old photos and happy to share same.
Best wishes to you all!

hello i do not no if anyone can help me i am trying to find info on my great grandad his name was herbert/bertie moore and he worked as a labourer at the flower pot works he worked then in 1932 we do not no how long for,but he lived at church street edmonton.he may have had the nickname golly i hope someone out there knows of him

Hello Adam

I am afraid that it most unlikely that there is any connnection between the two South lines.

Best of luck with your own researches

Ken

Wow. Can't believe I've managed to find some more people with the last name 'South'. Other than my immediate family, who tend to live and work in the yorkshire area, the last name 'South' seems to be quite scarce.

I'm about to begin the journey of charting my own family history, and found it quite refreshing to see that others had done the same. As I'm only 24, my knowledge of my own family history is somewhat lacking at present.

Good luck with everything.

fishtek69@hotmail.com

Hello Holly

I do have notes on Edith Cook - also photocopies of photos - supplied by her daughter Doris South ( I have her address)

I think that it would be easier to send direct by email - please make contact with me via the South email address - click on the Contact button.

Please can you let me know your realationship with and interest in Edith.

Regards

Ken Barker

I've nothing on Edith's parents. Have you any information on her children Kitty and Doris? Ken can supply you with lots of information on Walter.
Regards

Dennis South

On 3 Mar 2005 13:13:29 -0000 QT - holly
<qtopic+22-uJAa2jfqLRXtk@quicktopic.com> wrote:


----------------------------------------
Dennis E South
Email: D.E.South@hull.ac.uk
University of Hull
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Edited by author 03-03-2005 12:13 PM
Hello,
fantastic site! I'm just starting out on all this family tree business ... never dreamed I'd find so much!
Do any of you have any more information on Edith Cook who married Walter South in 1914 - I am having trouble finding out about her parents. Are there anymore photos of Edith and Walter?

I would be please to hear from anyone.

many thanks

Lyn

Well done! I have quite a bit of info about Ivy Cottage and will email you direct when I have collated it.

Have you a note of the other occupants of the cottage and the occupiers of the farmhouse.

Ken

Ken,

Congratulations on Update 44. I have just found my grandfather's brother Frederick Turner and family living at Ivy Cottage, Devonshire Hill Farm in 1901. He was working as a carman on contract. From any of your records have you any idea when he moved to Ivy Cottage? By 1907 he was living at 51 Broad Lane and working as a greengrocer. Also are there any photos of Ivy Cottage that you know of.

Lyn

Kiri

My information is limited to that given by my New Zealand relative - Judith Cranefield in her article about Moses South.

If you conact me via the website email address samuelsouth@btinternet.com I could put you in touch with her.

Ken Barker

Kia Ora,
Do you have any further information in regards to aquaintances/friends during the period 1903-1949 in the Nuhaka or Whangape areas. Seems to be a big part of the story. Any information you have would be appreciated.

Hello David

I am afraid that I do not have any info about American South families - the emigrants amongst my forebears went to Australia and New Zealand.
Ken Barker

Born 5-18-51 Son of John South of Sallisaw Oklahoma who is deceased. Any imformation on any family would be helpfull.

Tom

Good to hear from you again - I hope that your father is keeping well.

I have visted Les Rodway who now lives in Welwyn Garden City - his brother Stan was also there - it was Stan who worked with your father in the claypit. I need to arrange a further meeting with them.

It's beginning to sound as though there should be a reunion!

I was going to tell you about the group photos on the Cole's Pottery website but Pat Cryer has beaten me to it!

Regards

Ken

I'm pleased to report that the message from Les Rodway that Tom mentions has generated three group photographs which, thanks to Les, his friend, Dave Marden and his uncle, are now rather well labelled. Bob Callow is one of the individuals. To see the photos, scan down http://www.cryer.freeserve.co.uk/pottery-working-practices.htm. Pat Cryer

  --
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Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 2005-01-28 < replied-to message removed by QT >

Hello again Ken, Tom Brown here. Bert Browns' son remember?
I have just revisited the site and spotted the message from Les Rodway.As you probably know Les worked in the pit when my dad was his foreman and Les also remembers my uncle Ted, dads youngest brother, unfortunately the first to go.The Bob Callow that Les mentions rang a bell, I think they lived in Devonshire Hill Lane near us, I'm sure I remember Mrs. Callow when I was a child there.I'm sure Dave Marden will know.
Best Regards
Tom

Ken,

Thanks for that info. Yes we have confirmed it was The North London Store Fitting Co. Our interest is that my step-brother-in-law Colin Riches's uncle Horace Whitehouse (his mother's brother) was a director in partnership with Arthur Cass and when they moved from the potteries to Crawley when the lease expired the company changed its name to Cass White. Not sure exactly when they started there operation at the potteries but they came from Seven Sisters area. If I find out any more details I will let you know.

Hello Lyn

Hope you are well.

I am afraid that the name Cass White is unknown to me. The tenants at South Potteries in 1956 were :-

North London Store Fitting Co
T King Ltd
Victor Crashes
A H Austin
A S Stevens & Co
Thoran Engineering Ltd
H & H Motors

Perhaps Cass White was associated North London Store Fitting as they seem to be in the same line of business - what is your interest in them? I would keen to find out any info about tenants at Souths.

Regards

Ken

Ken,

Do you know anything about Cass White (shopfitters) who I believe had use of a building on one of the Pottery sites in the 1950's.

Dennis

I have passed your email address on to Chris.

Ken

Hi Chris

I would be interested in corresponding with you about your tree - Ken has my e-mail address.

Regards

Dennis South

I've already corresponded direct with Ken but thought I'd share the following information with others.

The eldest daughter of Joseph South(1), Ann South did survive to adulthood and marriage, and I am one of her 2 x great grandsons. On 28 March 1869 at West Hackney Parish Church, she married William Passaway, a labourer born in Enfield, and they lived thereafter in Tottenham (at no.8 and later no.44 Beaufoy Road) where William later became a builder and decorator. It appears that Ann died in the second half of 1898 at Edmonton (registered in quarter 4).

From family memory they had 11 or 13 children, but I have so far only found 9: William (1869-); Anne Eliza (1871-); James Arthur (1872-); Gertrude Emily (1874-1970); Charles Samuel (1876-); John (1879-1951); Florence (1883-); J [son] (1884-1918); and May (1889-). My great grandmother was Gertrude: she married James Martin Burren, had one daughter, spent the pre-War years in Sydney Australia, and returned to UK, but the ship James was serving on was torpedoed in the closing weeks of the War, and Gertrude stayed in mourning clothes for the remaining 52 years of her life.

I know that, before the War, Ann's son John Passaway worked as a potmaker in Tottenham. It would be interesting to know if he worked for South's...? Passaway is a very rare name, restricted in the 19th century entirely to Essex and north-east Middlesex, so I would be interested if it rings any bells.

This is a fascinating website, especially for someone who has only just discovered that 'their' Ann South was Joseph South's eldest daughter.

Chris

Hello Maureen

I am afraid that I do not have any knowledge of the people that you mention - but a couple of suggestions.

The Local History Unit at Bruce Castle Museum - 020 8806 8772 - my be able to help with your enquiries about Durban Road - the OS maps that they hold will show when the road first appeared on them. They also hold the census records from 1841 and electoral registers from circa 1890 which can also be helpful.

Have you visted www.1837online.com ? They have the birth, marriage and death registers from 1837 until today which can be searched. it is a pay site but unit cost not too bad - if you narrow down possible year range of the event being looked for I have found it most useful.

The Bryants in the website are descended from my g g grandfathers second marriage after he emigrated to NZ - I agree unlikely to be connection.

Pleased you enjoyed the site.

Regards

Ken Barker

Ken Barker

Edited by author 13-11-2004 12:47 AM
Sorry to butt in on your web site, but I am hoping that somebody may be able to answer a question for me.

I am trying to find out when the houses were built in Durban Road, (just round the corner from the potteries) as I am researching my family tree. My Father (Thomas Bryant) was born in Durban Road in 1916 (his brother Leslie was born there in 1911).I was also born there, we finally moved from there in 1988. I am trying to trace the marriage of my Grandfather, John Charles Bryant to Ellen Emily Edmans. They both originally came from Islington and I don't know how they came to live in Tottenham. My Mothers family also lived near the potteries. My Grandmother, Eleanor Smith was born in Church Road and moved into Whitehall Street when she married Archibald Chase.

I have just noticed that you have a Carrie Bryant on your Kinship Page, but I do not think she was from this Bryant family. Bryant is a much more common name then I imagined, there are over 120 buried in Abney Park Cemetary alone!!!!!

I have found your website very interesting.

Regards

Maureen Turner

Les

Very pleased to hear from you - glad you enjoyed the site. Thanks for helping to name the unidentified people in the photograph.

I am most anxious to make contact with former employees of South & Sons or anyone having information about the firm and the area - in addition to the pottery I am also researching the development of the area which was one of the last rural areas of Tottenham.

The Souths were my maternal family - my mother was the youngest daughter of Samuel South(2) - lived in Devonshire Hill Lane 1942-1966 - now live near St Albans.

Would very much like to hear further from you - could you make contact either via the email contact on the website or my address
ken.barker1@btinternet.com

Regards

Ken Barker

Found this very interesting site, and suprised to see a very good friend in Gallery 2, picture 18, seated second from right wearing spectacles, Name of Bob Callow, worked as the Mill man. I was born in Rivulet Road, year 1933. two hundred yards from the pottery.
My elder brothers worked at the potteries, as Night kiln man, another as clay excavator, down the hole as it was refered too.
Wonderful times pleasant memmories.
Thank you.

Owen

I will reply to your email address.

Ken

Nikki

Nice to hear from you again - I do not have much info about Snells Park, certainly not about the later years.

Have you visited www.lower-edmonton.co.uk/ - it is a site dedicated to Lower Edmonton (although Snells park is in Upper Edmonton)- there are plenty of photos that I am sure will recall memories for you and message boards where you could post messages for info about your relatives.

Ken

Edited by author 26-10-2004 11:42 PM
Hi Ken my mother was on the ss atlantis Oct/Nov 1949 she was so pleased to read the recollections of I presume your fathers voyage and stirred up lots of memories for her. my email address is owen@omarkey.com

Hello Ken, I wrote some time ago regards the photos of the pub in snells park and mentioned I lived at #6 Snells park for the first 6 years of my life. I have searched for information of my grandmother Daisy Isabel Mills (Young/ howard) or Jim Mills who worked for the electricity board and lived in #6 Snells park for many years before moving across the street to the new (at that time) masonettes. Should anyone have any knowledge of them I would greatly appreciate some help in tracking their history. My mother Daisy isabel Ayres (mills) has very little information but may well have photos of Snells Park that would be interesting. Living in Baja Mexico limits my access to much information, any help would be appreciatated. I visit your site regularly , it brings back those wonderful childhood memories Thankyou. regards Nikki King (lesley ann mills)

Thanks for your message - will reply to your email address

I have just discovered the names of John South and Sarah Unwin on this site and they are my great great grandparents who emigrated from England to Australia in 1853. How do I find out details of their ancestors? My email address is kshekleton@dodo.com.au

I have just discovered the names of John South and Sarah Unwin on this site and they are my great great grandparents who emigrated from England to Australia in 1853. How do I find out details of their ancestors?

Jeff

Good to hear from you.

I did reply via the contact email on your own website but am uncertain whether it was sent properly.

Did you receive it?

Ken

Hi and greetings. RE; OCEAN MAJESTY! I was saddened on first arriving home to find that I had lost your piece of paper on which you had written details of your website. Time went by, and whilst I didn't forget it, I was rather cross with myself. Believe it or not, yesterday whilst searching around on my book case shelves, I happened to drop a book which I took with me on the cruise, and guess what dropped out of the back cover flap - your piece of paper. So greetings. Nice and interesting web site and a better search engine than mine, which, from my home page, you will see is temporarily out of service after introducing a brand new state-of-the-art server!! Hope all is well and once again, it was a pleasure to have sailed with you. Our best regards. Beryl and Godfrey [Jeff] Dykes

Hi Ken

Lovely photo of you as a wee lad.

Hope you are keeping well.

Eileen

Thanks Ken
Sue






In a message dated 22/05/2004 05:13:51 GMT Daylight Time,
qtopic+22-uJAa2jfqLRXtk@quicktopic.com writes:

> http://www.londonarchiveusers.org.uk/archive/2002/housing.html
>

0

Sue

Public Housing is obtainable from the London Archive Users Forum - suggest you visit http://www.londonarchiveusers.org.uk/archive/2002/housing.html
for details

Ken

Ken,

Unfortunately, Debden, which is part of Loughton, suffers from having too many councils (Town, District and County), none of which have bothered to keep the relevant documents. Most of the LCC files relating to the estate appear to have been destroyed. In 1944, there was not only the District and County council, there were also two urban district councils involved in the building of Debden, neither of which exist today, and there no council minutes remain. This is why I have been forced to rely on newspapers and oral memories. There is a public record office in Chelmsford, but they had nothing of any relevance there, neither did the archive in London. As I have a couple of ex-Debden residents in Australia, both with amazing memories, I wondered if there might be any one else who could remember Debden in the 1940s and 50s.

I have to admit there is also the feeling in Loughton that "Debden is only a council estate so why bother to research its history?" This makes me more determined to do so, of course.

I haven't heard about 'Public Housing'. Do you know if it is available from bookshops? I would certainly like to obtain a copy.

Thanks for your help,

Sue

Sue

I am afraid that I cannot be of direct help to you - apart from the refering to the various archives of which you will be well aware - however follwing comments may be of use.

I am undertaking similar research into the development of the White Hart Lane estate by Tottenham Coucil in the 1920s and currently ploughing through the Council Minutes - they are indexed and are providing a mine of information - research to date will be included in the next Update on this site in June - will give you some idea of the info available from this source.

The residents association of the adjoining former LCC estate in Tottenham have a history section - would the same be in in existence for Debden?

Would also recommend Public Housing by Alan Cox (London Archive Users Forum (£4.95) which gives brief history of public housing but more importantly detatils of relevant archives.

Hope this is of some help

Ken

Hope you don't mind my intruding again on your website.

As well as researching Mary Wroth, who lived both at Durants in Enfield and also at Loughton Hall, I am also just beginning to think about the topic of my next study, which will be the Debden Estate. The Estate was built in the 1940s partly on Loughton Hall land, to house people who had either lost their homes in the war or had lived in the inner-city slums of London.

An article appeared in the Epping Forest Guardian about my writing a history of Debden in April. It was also placed on its website. A few people from Australia and one from America wrote to me as a result. They all left Debden many years ago but retain an interest in its affairs.

This has left me wondering if there might be an ex-pat website somewhere, in the hope I might be able to contact even more ex-Loughton people.

Any ideas?

Thanks Ken!

Hello Bill

Thanks for your message - I have passed it on to my cousin Michael (Short not South by the way)

Ken

I was very interested to read Mike South's account of his trip to NZ in the "Atlantis' in 1950. I too migrated as an assisted migrant in February that year. I met an Aussie lass and we eventually finished up in Melbourne but we still have many sentimental links with the 'shakey isles'.
He can contact me on smibill75@yahoo.com.au if he'd like to compare experiences

Sue

I am afraid that I do not have direct knowledge of your research subjects but I hope that the following comments are of help.

I understand that Durants was a Manor of Enfield as well as the name of a property and assume that ownership of the Manor does not necessarily mean that you lived in the manor house.

David Pam is the president of Edmonton Hundred HS and has written a detailed history of Enfield (I think that there are two or three volumes) which is commercially available and, I think, usually stocked by Enfield bokshops.

The are several references to Wroth and Durants in the Victoria History of Middlesex (vol 5) - there are copious footnotes giving sources for further research. I have scanned the entry for the history of the Manor of Durrants (mentions the Wroths etc)- if you contact me via the CONTACT email on the South website I can send you the extract as an attachment.

Your first contact (if you have not already done so) should be Graham Dalling - head of the Enfield Local History Unit at Southgate and also the contact for EHHS. Graham is a mine of inforamtion about the area and will be able to tell where the Pam books can be obtained and also what Archives are held about Wroths and Durrants.
Telephone 020 8379 2724
    
Hope this helps

Ken Barker

I am studying the life of Mary Sidney Wroth 1587-1651 and Loughton Hall and my reading keeps on bringing me back to Durrants or Durants in Enfield, which appears to have been the Wroth's home for many years.

There seems to be some disagreement over who actually owned Durrants as it appears to be either the property of the Wroths or the Stonards. Susan Stonard married John Wroth and when her father died in 1579 the estate transferred to him, but before then, Durrants seems to have been in the possession of both families, depending on what you read. To confuse matters even more, John Wroth (b. 1325) married Maud Durant in 1355. Is this a coincidence or is this how the house came to be named Durrants?

I have seen references to a book by Pam but I am not sure whether it is a EHS publication or whether it might be obtained via a bookshop.

If you could help me with this part of my research I would be very grateful.
Thanks

Just another link for the Bysouth line - Philip Bysouth (son of John Head Bysouth and Mary Ann Crouch) details of his wife, Nellie Underlin's family, can be found on:

http://www.underlinfamily.com/newtree/pedigree/762.htm

Dennis

I have just spent an enjoyable hour thanks to my sister's
computer. I am staggered by the amount of history that you have obtained on your family. Keep going.

Dennis

Thanks-I am in touch with one or two Australian distant relatives but unfortunately have not sat down to work out all of the relationships - Update 32 on the website provides further details.

Ken

Hi

A couple of web addresses for links to Australian emigrants:
http://www.firstfamilies2001.net.au/firstf...d=BYSOUTH1668651193

http://www.firstfamilies2001.net.au/firstf...id=SOUTH13882034512

Regards

Dennis

Dennis

Thanks.

I have connected with the site - certainly seems that there is common ancestry with John (By)south b 1637.

Have you contacted Lee Jacobs?

Ken

Edited by author 12-09-2003 05:11 PM
Hi Ken

Another link to the South tree which goes through Thomas 1708 on web address:
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op...&db=jacobs&id=I2231

Make sure all the address is used up to and including 12231

Regards

Dennis

I am writing to ask for your help in the form of short “Letters to the Editor”, for publication in the newspaper for the locality of “our potteries”. The hope is that this will stimulate some new information from any local residents who remember the potteries.

Here is the background: As some of you may know, my mother’s family owned the Cole Potteries which were adjacent to the South Potteries in White Hart Lane. One of the owners was also the first mayor of Wood Green, which generated a short piece in last week’s local paper - see www.cryer.freeserve.co.uk/newsflash.htm . Ken has already written a letter, and I am sure that he will keep us informed, via this site, of when it is published. We are both hoping that you, who are also interested in the history of the potteries, will agree to keep the theme going over a number of weeks, so that we can reach as many local residents as possible. Obviously it doesn’t matter much what you write as long as it will interest readers, contain a contact phone number or email address and keep the theme going. The paper’s instructions for writing letters for publication are:
 
     Write to: The Editor,
     The Journal
     161 Tottenham Lane
     London N8 9BU
 
     Email letters will be accepted to nlnews@inuk.co.uk
     but please supply a postal address as well. The
     Editor reserves the right to shorten or amend
     letters at his discretion

With many thanks in advance

Pat Cryer

Christine

Delighted to hear from you.
We did exchange emails in 2001 although you had a different email address.
I shall write further to your new address.

Ken Barker

Oops sorry my address is, wait for it....

uniquely_christine@btopenworld.com.

I was so excited....

nee Bysouth.......have quite a bit of info on a branch of Tottenham Bysouths - my little lot!!

We are all linked, my grandfather originating from Barkway/Reed - so if you really want to clarify/confuse things......contact me.

I am totally authentic - having attended a Bysouth Day in Reed - and I've also got the sweet little family nose to go with it.

Edited by author 23-07-2003 12:17 PM
For details of Elizabeth Woodham's family tree (she was married to Leonard Bysouth b.1873) go to website http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~odell/OD...g/main13.html#I1069
Some of the dates are suspect and would require investigation.

Dennis

Tom

Thanks.

I have spoken to your father - it is obvious that he will be an invaluable source of information about the potteries and the Devonshire Hill Lane area generally - I am seeing him tomorrow morning - I suspect that this could be the first of many visits (if he can put up with me!)

Ken

KEN

Dads phone number is 01462 615730
Give him a ring. He thinks his foot is visible in the film he remembers being shot while he was there.
Regards
Tom

Tom Brown

Great to hear from you after all this time.

Have posted a message on your home e-mail, will contact you at work this pm. After 40 years - where do you start?

Let your dad know that Frank Marden is still soldiering on in Wood Green at a fairly fit 78.

Dave

Ken
I spoke to dad yesterday and he was mystified as to where the photographs of his old workmates came from.
It transpires that he actually started at Souths in 1934 and obviuosly had to leave for war duties until his demob in 1947 when he returned.He thinks he left in 1959 and managed not to be in the last picture.
He rcognised a lot of the characters in the photo and immediately recalled digging a well of which Mr. Chalkley bricked the inside.
He will be glad to talk to you although he says he has nothing of interest to tell (I bet everybody thinks that of themselves).
I'll send you his telephone number later today as I can't remeber it.

Regards
Tom

David Marden

David,
Where did you spring from??
My memory is that you moved away from the area very early sixties.
 
Can't wait to catch up with you, email me.

Tom

Tom

Comments on speedy response reciprocated! Too hot for outside activities - at least that is my excuse for sitting in front of PC!

I retired last year (aged 60) and now have more time to research South Potteries and Devonshire Hill Lane area (I lived there until 1966).

As you will know Letchworth is only 20/30 minute drive up A1 from here. Look forward to hearing from you on Wenesday - will be out in afternoon making regular visit to the archives at Bruce Castle Museum in Tottenham.

Regards

Ken

Ken
What a speedy response.
I'll ask my dad when next I see him, possibly tomorrow.
He now lives in Letchworth and has since 1968.I'm sure he'll be glad to talk about Souths.There is a further link as I am sure his two brothers, Ted and Tom did some time there too.
My home Email is tlbrown@tiscali.co.uk
My work Email is t.brown@mitechsystems.co.uk
I'm off work tomorrow so I'll contact you on Wednesday

Regards
Tom

Edited by author 14-07-2003 02:48 PM
Tom

Delighted to hear from - I would very much like to get in touch with your father or even visit him if this was alright with you - I live near St Albans. I am very interested in obtaining "hands on" information about South potteries and indeed your own recollections.

I have many phtographs that he might be interested in and also a short 1950s newsreel downloaded from the Pathe website - your father might be on it!

I am in regular contact with Dave Marden - another former "local" who has seen your message and says that he was a schoolboy friend of yours and would like very much to get in touch with you. If you do not want to give your email address on a public message board you can send it via the address on the South website samuelsouth@btinternet.com and I will pass it on.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Ken

My father, William Albert Brown (Bert) of 85, Devonshire Hill Lane, worked at Souths pottery from his demob post WWII until the early sixties.
His leg was quite badly injured in an accident when the winch cable pulling the trucks broke. He returned to work after recovery.
As a child I remember being allowed to visit the pottery on a bank holiday (Easter or Whitsun) and being fascinated with the process.

If anybody researching this subject would like to contact my father, who is now a very fit 84, I would be glad to assist.

Dennis

I have accessed the relevant pages on the IGI site - I am afraid that I cannot help with your Bysouth enquiries but hope that your other contacts bring more sucess.

As you say, the records can be inacurate - my great grandfather, Samuel South, is given the birth year 1856 (1853) and place of birth as Stanstead (Cheshunt)

 Ken

Ken

I have just tried the link from another Pc and you're right it doesn't connect, although it does from the machine I posted the message from. The link basically is, as usual, through the Latter-day Saints site and just type in Besowthe in the surname and go to the lists over 25 (I think the Besowthe gives you a few more variants than just typing in Bysouth)

Dennis

Ken

Strange, it's been working for me. The one I advise to use is the one direct off the message board as the sent message breaks the web
address into separate lines, and you would have to copy the lot, say into a word doc, and remove the line breaks.

Regards

Dennis

On 4 Jul 2003 18:55:40 -0000 QT - Ken Barker
<qtopic+22-uJAa2jfqLRXtk@quicktopic.com> wrote:

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Dennis

re IGI

I am afraid that I could not connect with the link in your message.

My understanding is that the IGI should not be relied upon because of the errors in transcription but it is a useful starting point for tracing possiblr family members - no substitute for registration certificates, census etc

Ken

Edited by author 04-07-2003 09:04 AM
Hi

How accurate is the IGI? From the link to the 806 Bysouth/Besowthe etc names (Link given below) there is additional information that is not on data I have received from other sources. I am inclined to trust researched material from family researchers rather than from a source where data is just input without an interest in the family itself. Some of the information I have just accessed from the IGI gives George 1835-1921 (son of Thomas Bysouth and Elizabeth Young) as having a wife Susannah Walker (go to no. 107 on the IGI list) and having 13 children (nos. 92 and 95-106 on the IGI list) can anyone confirm?. There are also some discrepancies with dates for other individuals eg marriage of Elizabeth Bysouth and John Earle (no. 55) and a couple of other instances where dates do not tally. I haven’t been through all the information from the IGI site yet but if you agree or disagree with any of this IGI material could you post your comments on this site. Many thanks.

Dennis South

Web address (you need it all; access better from original on Samuel's message site):

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/cus...is1friendly=England

Hello Ashley

Apologies for the delay in replying to your message - I have been way for a few days.

Certainly until the mid nineteenth century the Souths and Bysouths of north east Herts were the same family and the two name were interchangeable - see article by Tom Doig in Articles section on website. My own family chart is under the Webmaster heading in the About section.

Since that time, it seems that the two names were separate but I do not have info about the later generations of Bysouths - I know that there was a well known firm of Bysouth stonemasons in Tottenham. Do you have the dates of the family members mentioned in your message?

I have been in contact with some members of the Bysouth fmily and about two years ago Tom Doig held a Bysouth day attended by many Bysouths. If you would like to contct me via the website email address
samuelsouth@btinternet.com I can provide further details - I am reluctant to post addresses on a message board without their OK.

Ken

I forgot to mention that my grandad was born East Tottenham 1918

Hi, hoping someone out there will be able to help trace my 'Bysouth' family. Doesn't seem to be anything on any of the internet sites. The details are Michael John Bysouth, William, Anne, Ruth (still alive, as far as I know)& Harry who was a pig farmer on the Crooked Mile, Waltham Cross. Supposedly the book 'A Poachers Tale' was written about my Greatgrandad.. Any info would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Dennis
Thanks for the information

Ken

Details about the Newling Family - and marriage of George Newling and Ann Bysouth (b.1802) and their children can be found on the following website http://www.larigan.com/total/5075.htm

Regards

Dennis

Irene

Trying to contact you via your e-mail address on your web page but message returned.

Dave

I remember the railway and travelled on it as a boy - there was a small permanent funfair close by.

I have not come across photos of the railway during my visits to Bruce Castle Museum but will have another look on future visits.

Dennis

Thanks for yor message

I have not collated the informamtion about the "early" Souths and to date have been concentrating on the more recent history of my own branch. About two years ago Tom Doig organised a Bysouth day at Reed church hall attended by members of the family in contact with him so that information could be exchanged . Some one put up a large family tree wall chart which some others copied. I think that Irene Robinson may have done so - are you in contact with her?

Ken

This might be a good place to list any new information (contact details) for updating the Bysouth/South trees. I have noticed from my recent research that although the 'family' seem to be in contact with each other the trees do not have the same branches.

On other subjects local, Does anybody out there have a photo of the pleasure train that used to run around the boating lake at Alexandra Palace? I think it was operated by a company called Lakeside Railways, and the main loco was named "Duke of Edinburgh". I believe it ceased to operate in the 1960s when it was something like 6d a trip.

Hi Ken, Thanks for keeping me updated on your site - you're much better at keeping your site updated than I am with my own site! Irene

My congratulations too. What a good idea! Let's hope that this way we can more actively progress our research into north London potteries.

Congratulations Ken,

I can now spend even more of my valuable time communicating with you in this additional vehicle for my comments!

Welcome

This is a test message:

- to make sure the board works!
- so that you are not put off by being the first!

Comments, information etc welcome

Ken Barker