laura: i like your assessment about the situation. hey DC, any news from your son about the events that are occuring in fallujah? readers what i am going to post here is another sign of failure of this administration's stance on support for testing for diseases that are neurological and non neurological.:-

  about what sanjay said today, i am posting it
  here and as well as at the election site because, i feel that as americans, we have the best but are not utilizing the resources to the fullest extent only because some people are so blinded by righteousness and have hearts of stone that they wont change
  their stance on things for the betterment of the general public.
    yesterday it broke my heart to see and hear that our former
  first lady nancy reagan speak about president reagan and the
  issues that affect people with alzheimers, parkinsons and a
  myriad of other rare, fatal and non fatal neurological and
  non-neurological disorders are not getting the support to do
  research to eradicate these disorders from this sitting
  administration.

    O'BRIEN: A new medical treatment is raising some serious
  ethical questions. It involves genetic testing to ensure that a baby has the right genes to save a sick sibling.

    Dr. Sanjay Gupta is at the CNN Center with more on the
  technology, and also more, obviously, on the controversy as
  well.

    Sanjay, good morning.

    DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning,
  Soledad.
    Yes, it's not so much what the procedure is, but what it might become. We explain it here, and introduce you to one family who is touched by it.
    (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

    GUPTA (voice-over): To look at him prancing around, playing
  and laughing, you could hardly tell Henry Strongen (ph) Goldberg was sick.

    ALLEN GOLDBERG, HENRY'S FATHER: He was the kid with the smile. He was the kid with the sparkle in his eye.

    GUPTA: But he was extremely ill. Henry was born with phanconia (ph) anemia. That's a rare blood disorder that prevents bone
  marrow from generating new blood cells. His best chance for
  survival, a bone marrow transplant from a genetically compatible sibling.

    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody one with the kind of phanconia
  anemia that Henry had had ever survived a bone marrow transplant without a sibling donor.

    GUPTA: Problem was Henry didn't have one. So the Strongen
  Goldbergs decided to take drastic action. They did something
  known as pre-implantation genetic diagnosis and HLA testing. In other words, they set out to make a baby that would be as
  closely as possible Henry's perfect genetic match.
    Here's how it works: Laurie and Allen underwent in vitro
  fertilization. Before selecting an embryo for implantation, they had all the fertilized embryos analyzed to choose one that might be a match for Henry, and a possible cure for phanconia anemia. After the implanted embryos reaches term and a baby is born...

    LANA RECHITSKY, REPRODUCTIVE GENETIC INST.: Stem cells are
  collected from cord blood and frozen for the future potential
  transfer to the sick baby.
    GUPTA: The Strongen Goldbergs, who were the first to undergo
  this procedure, tried PGB nine times,unsuccessfully. They failed to produce an embryo that was a genetic match for Henry. And
  Henry died at the age of 7.

    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had run out of time.

    But recently, for the first time, five babies were born using this method. One baby stem cells have already been used to save a sibling. Still, the controversy is stinging, and complicated.
    Critics question whether this technique could lead to designer babies, with parents selecting one embryo and rejecting others
  to ensure specific eye color, height, intelligence or even
  cloning.

    DR. KENNETH PRAGER, CHMN. COLUMBIA UNIV. MEDICAL ETHICS CMTE: It has to be made clear, this is not cloning. This is bringing
  to life a child from a sperm and an egg. It is natural in that
  respect.

    GUPTA: Although it didn't work for them, Henry's family
  believes conceiving a baby to be a donor is still the best
  option.

    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What this child would be doing would be
  saving our family from the tragic loss of a child.

    (END VIDEOTAPE)

    GUPTA: And interestingly, according to a study, Genetics and
  Policy Center Study from Johns Hopkins, most Americans are
  comfortable with this. A survey of over 4,000 people, say 61
  percent approve of the procedure, 33 percent do not -- Soledad.
    O'BRIEN: Well Sanjay, You've obviously hit on the controversy. But What's the overall cost to the patient to do something like they're trying to do?

    GUPTA: It's not cheap at all, Soledad. It costs about $3,000
  for the PGD -- that's the pre-implantation genetic diagnosis.
  And then $10,000 for the in vitro fertilization. So $13,000 for every single attempt. It usually takes more than one. The
  Strongen Goldbergs, who you just met, spent about $135,000 over their nine attempts -- Soledad.

    O'BRIEN: Sanjay Gupta for us this morning. Sanjay, thanks --
  Bill.

    GUPTA: Thank you.




< replied-to message removed by QT >

Is this really about prisoner abuse? I submit that it's not. All of a sudden there's hell to pay in the media which didn't spend much time on this at all back in January when the details came out. Doesn't the timing of this seem a little odd to anyone but me?

We're all concerned about how we look to the world. Let me tell you how we look. We are being laughed at today in the part of the world with whom we are at war. We are being laughed at and seen as weak and malleable.

So we're now going to compensate people who were in jail for attempting to kill Americans and thwart our war effort?
These are the same ones that are trying to kill DC's son!
I continue to scratch my head when I hear this.

Democrat Senator Joe Lieberman is one of the few voices of sanity and reason on this committee. My hat's off to him because he's going against the grain of his party. He is putting partisanship aside and focusing on the issue, which is what everybody claims they’re doing, but they’re not. "I didn't hear anyone apologizing when they killed 3000 of our citizens on 9/11!", Joe Lieberman

Don't get me wrong I am not condoning any of this...but the boob that took the pictures should be shot! This is something that should have been handled internally, by the Army out of the eyes of the media...what the hell were they thinking?

And, if BushCO were smart they’d kick Rumsfeld out on his ass. That would have given the appearance of acknowledging the problem, having done something to correct the mistakes and make good on a promise. What good is the Shrub apologizing to the King of Jordan (wrong county) and then getting up to the podium today and praising Rumsfeld?!? With Rummy still in office, we will have months more of the press pounding away. More pictures and videos to follow and BushCO is praising Rummy?!? Chip, chip away at BushCo’s creditability. Keystone cops, baby!

I suppose they are between a rock and a hard place because the other side of the coin is that if Bush fires Rummy, that would be an admission of a wrong-doing, a mistake. BushCO is incapable of admitting a mistake . .it’s divert attention and play the blame game. BushCO wants to paint the prisoner abuse as a few bad apples but, that’s simply not the case. There’s enough evidence out there to prove the abuse of this nature started in Afghanistan. Eventually, the press will hit on this fact and Bush standing by Rummy is going to come back to bite him. BushCO would rather hope and pray something good will happen to take the heat off … drinking the kool-aid. BushCO refuses to admit when they are wrong and that’s what is doing to do them in.

Laura in LA-

You are quite prolific and show up on practically every newsgroup out there so you must have spent a lot of time thinking these issues through- I'm glad you continue to expose Bush as the fraud he is, but here's the tough question. Why do you think that anyone else is going to do a better job?
 

The war was an extreme that Bush introduced as a way of getting visibility and building favor with the extremists in his party. He obviously miscalculated and it's blown up in his face on multiple fronts (no pun intended).
 

But Clinton did the same thing with Healthcare, and Kerry is bound to be pulled into extremes by his supporters. With the system as messed up as it is, why do we expect otherwise?
 

That was a bit rhetorical, but here's a straight forward question. Why can't we get out of the mess of politics by choosing core issues that everyone has to deal with and let's focus on solving them outside of party rhetoric? The Democrats don't have a better overall record than the Republicans, so why don't we use public forums like this to create consensus instead of exposing the muck that we all know is there?
 

[url]http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/ [/url]

[b]LetÂ’s start a conversation about change[/b]



QT - Laura in LA <qtopic+22-fd7eJQ25y3Nnf@quicktopic.com> wrote:
  
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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Edited by author 05-10-2004 03:38 PM
Is it prisoner abuse? Hell yes--rape and murder are abuse.... The tapes we saw are mild and just the tip of the iceburg. Child rape, raping women, beatings, killings and necrophiliac acts on a corpse (who can not divulge information by the way) are also apparently on "unreleased tapes"(see the linked text).

Rape and murder are not fraternity pranks or legitimate interrogation techniques. This is abuse and torture. Anyone who is an apologist for such behavior...well it speaks for itself. If we are going to stand for human rights, then we had better not violate them ourselves.

No excuses for raping prisoners. No excuses for chaining people up and beating them to death or near death. We have to abide by some sort of standards, and can not be drawn into the argument, "well Saddam did it too", so it must be ok.

The US shouldn't seek to emulate Saddam.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4945202/

RUMSFELD: There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman.

MIKLASZEWSKI: U.S. military officials tell NBC News, the unreleased images, show American soldiers severely beating one Iraqi prisoner to near death; apparently, raping an Iraqi female prisoner; acting inappropriately with a dead body; and Iraqi guards apparently videotaped by U.S. soldiers raping young boys.

SEN. LINDSAY GRAHAM ®, SOUTH CAROLINA: We‘re talking about rape and murder here, we‘re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience, we‘re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.

Kevin, I have this theory that history will refer to the time in which we live as the “technology age.” The internet has changed our world and we don’t see the effects of it in real time as we live. For example, this was the first war in the internet age … the average joe all over the world was able to get information they would have never had access to. It has changed our view and has made it impossible for our gov’t to operate completely stealth as they have become so accustomed to. There are independent reporters on the ground reporting and blogging. The Dean campaign is another example of how the internet has changed our political system. What we Deaniacs did is not just a flash in the pan.

I don’t believe for one minute that tactics such as those used in the prisons in Iraq have never been done before. I don’t believe it was a few bad apples - - this is systemic. The difference is the “technology” age. Now, you can burn your pics on CD’s and shoot ‘em out via email. It does not cost much for a digital camera .. now they have them on cell phones. That’s all that happened here – technology has changed the rules of the game. These old dudes running the show just cannot get their head around the changes that have resulted due to digital technology. I suppose it never crossed their collective, computer ignorant minds that US personnel and private contractors would bring digital cameras and video recorders. DuH!! You don’t think this is going down at Gitmo .. their remedy will simply be to ban cameras. You should be pissed that they guys running your War for Liberation are so clueless!! You trust these dumbasses??? Have they not up loaded a pic from the camera before? Guess not . . .yeah, Rummy’s like 70 years old, Kevin!

With respect to your contention that it’s not about prison abuse and that media’s timing of reporting this story is somehow a plot, I respectfully disagree. It’s the media age, they reported it because they had the pictures. They are all after ratings. . . the pictures made it a story. I have expressed my discontent with the US media on before no need to rehash it. It’s like Janet’s nipple – same crap. The reality is that the Red Cross reports of abuse were out there but mostly in int’l press and progressive papers. Faux, CNN, MSNBC they did not pick it up until they had their money making pictures. Americans operate in the bubble of “oh, it cannot be true, we are the good guys, we are liberating the Iraqis, we’re a free and democratic country.” They believe the hype because they don’t know their history and the news media only serves the corporate interests that control our gov’t. Keep ‘em stupid and scared.

I believe that the knowledge is power and the technology we now possess will empower us. The guy who snitched the abuse story only spoke the truth. The truth hurts but, if you are suggesting that the world should not know what gov’ts have been up to all these years, then you are excusing human right abuses all over the world. As I said, this war was a huge risk and if you supported this war, then you assume the risks. Don’t blame the guy who stood up for what is right, spoke the truth . .if we have egg on our face it’s because we erred. Don’t shoot the messenger . . .. ask yourself instead, why are all these private contractors operating under the radar in Iraq? Whom do they answer to? What jurisdiction do they fall under should they break the law? Ask yourself why there was no training, no planning? Ask yourself, was it worth it to take such a risk? Then research the private companies . . .follow the money. Look at root causes and stop excusing and blaming.

Where is the powerful Christian right? I don’t hear them screaming about the torture of humans in Iraq at our gov’ts hand? They only make a stink when it benefits their agenda. Bunch of hypocrites! Yeah, let’s make a big deal about a 10 commandments statute in a court house but, not a word outta of them on this issue. Are they protesting? Is Robertson decrying the abuse? No, . . that’s right, God told him that Bush was going to win the election. It would be un-Christian of him to interfere with God’s Plan.

Vote Mickey .. all I know we cannot have our government run by ideologues, corporations and Christian fundamentalists. We have to fight the battles we can win .. step by step, we will get there. Right now, we know that BushCO must go . .they are scary damaging to the world. We get beat up Kerry later. BushCO has the worst of all dynamics…. They are the worst of the corporate butt suckers, BushCO consults his God on issues of war and he’s in the pocket of People for the New American Century nuts like Wolfowitz and Pearl. Kerry is a heck of lot better than that. We are no getting healthcare, deal with it - - let’s just save the world from BushCO for now. We are risking major war here with Bush inciting the Middle East, exacerbating the Palestinian – Israeli conflict . .. I’m not into endless war against an enemy that resides all over the world. This could get really ugly .. luckily, we have an election coming up . Register voters in swing states!

I am under no illusions that I can change the world in my lifetime. I simply want to leave this earth knowing that I’ve helped to push our society in the right direction. Sure, I get down sometimes because it feels like I’m banging my head up against a wall. However, I would have nothing to live for if I did not believe that we have the ability to make things better for us all – the world. I believe in people. I believe in the tenets of our Democracy and I believe that the people in this country can boot these bozos out of office the moment they figure out they don’t live in a Democracy anymore. We can be cynical and honest about the task before us, but we never give up hope for change. We don’t have to know all the answers now, we just have to know in our hearts the right path on which to trod and say on it. If we leave this place a little better and pass on our knowledge and passion for change as activists . .. pass the torch to the next generation, protect our freedom of speech and information on the internet . . our job is done. Criticism is nothing without out action. And the internet has also allowed us all to hook up and communicate . . .the revolution has began .. I know it in my heart. . baby steps .. never give up!