Shoudlwe reconsider SOy as a health food? Are the Soy and Canola lobbies behind all this promotion?

I don't think it's soy, I think it's Bisphenol-A, a chemical that they put into just about everything from plastic pipes, to cd-roms, to dental coatings and most importantly: the pastic bottles we've been drinking water and soda out of for the past 2 decades. There have been cases in England that claimed that dental seals made with this stuff limited the growth of male genitalia. Check out this link: Bisphenol-A

hard to believe that all those chinese, japanese and other asian people have been eating soybeans and tofu for thousands of years and they 1) seem to have reasonably-sized brains, and 2) except for sumo wrestlers, do not have bitch-tits.

on the other hand, god knows what ADM is doing to the soybeans that they are producing :)

Don't forget the parabens, which are in almost all makeup and hair care products: they're pseudo-estrogens too!

I'm glad that the chemicals that we consume are mutating our species "on the fly". Anbody know a chemical that will give me rock hard abs, or a 30 centimeter willy? Did John invent the Dvorak keyboard?

Recent studies have shown that first-generation ibooks are responsible...


tom
-=W=-

Will overconsumption of soy lead to "tofu testes?"

If male titslings are produced, do we call them The Manssaire or The Bro?

There are some serious scientific studies out there claiming that consumption of soy products could have negative health effects due to the hormon like effects it has. For example, one study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences a couple years ago tried to link soy consumption with immuno deficiency in young children.

A major problem with such suggestions is that there are other non-Western cultures where people have been consuming far more soy than the average American does and they've been doing it for as long as anyone remember and they don't have markedly higher incidence of the various problems supposedly associated with soy.

The obesity problems, though, is pretty easy to explain. The number of calories people report they eat hasn't changed all that much, but the amount of exercise Americans self-report doing has declined dramatically as obesity has increased. (I guess you could argue that as we get fat we stop exercising, but I suspect it is more likely that we're fat because we don't exercise enough).

if soy leads to "hormone" like effects which cause male breasts, wouldn't it also cause the other "effects" like longer life, less balding, and lowered violence/rage?

If so.. pass the soy!

Seriously, some of the pics of "bitch tits" are not freaking real. I can't prove it, but I'd bet money that some of the photos are actually women. There are a number of cases of people pretending to have a serious illness and participating in online communities. Maybe some of these dudes are lonely and want sympathy, so they make a fake man-boob story and send in pics of some fat lady's chest they got off the internet.

Besides, is it just me, or are just about all of those guys lardasses? I mean, I understand you feel bad because you got yourself a set of chesticles, but maybe you wouldn't have them if you stopped eating Big Macs by the dozen. Those dudes should try a diet and exercise plan.

As for soy, its a godsend. I'm a vegetarian and I could not get by without it. And, I don't have a set of knockers, nor are my testes receding.

Here is an interesting link from the sci.agriculture archive I found Googling regarding this: http://yarchive.net/env/estrogen_mimics.html. I can't vouch for the facts but legumes are a major source of phyto-estrogens and are well known to cause fertility problems with cattle. It seems the biggest counter argument being thrown around is that it is a "large" part of the Asian diet and they are not growing breasts. The breast part is most likely true but with the increased consumption of soy milk and other soy products in the US as well as the short exposure (regarding adaptability to increased estrogens) I would say it is premature to use this defense. It may also be interesting to take into consideration (albeit hypothetically) on the sparseness of facial (and body?) hair in Asian men. Coincidence?

I've hunted the net for stories of research showing problems
with phyto-estrogens in soy without luck. It's fun to bandy
possibilities about, but phyto-estrogens can come from more
than soy. But this topic is "Soy: threat or menace?" so I guess
it is a forgone conclusion that soy is evil by at least one
participant here.

James: Not to mention our relatively huge American penises.

Never read anything about soy being a source of estrogen, but I have heard that it was originally pumped from a well in Canola, Mexico. It seems that the International Communist movement sought to destabalize the corn and vegetable oil industries, which were formally the backbone of the Midwestern American economy. Of course, none of this would have happened if our government hadn't had George Washington Carver killed because they were afraid he would learn too much about the peanut.

Monsieur Dvorak is the best guest blogmeista in quite some time methinks; diversifying the usual ip/toys/art/disneyland themes of boingboing (mind you ip and disneyland do keep me coming back).

On ya John C.!

Note that the herb, saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), is marketed to *men* of a certain age as a treatment for BPH (nonmalignant enlargement of the prostate gland), and to *women* as a key ingredient in natural breast enlargement preparations (such as the "MegaBust" breast enlargement formula).

In a recent double-blind study, saw palmetto was shown to be as effective, or more effective, in reducing BPH than the principal medication prescribed for this condition. But, if you're a male and you take saw palmetto for BPH, your breast tissue *will* change.

Do a Google search on "saw palmetto" & "breast" and check out the hits...

Hmm, you think we white american dudes are hairy bastards because we don't eat much soy? Interesting, but it's probably genetic.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind eating something that would get rid of the back hair, but I don't want man-boobs. Man-boobs or back hair? I think I'll stick with back hair.

There was a study I remember reading about a few years back that claimed that East Asian men had smaller testes as a result of the amount of soy products that they consumed.

There have been reports in the news during the last 2 years or so that many frogs and alligators in Lake Ponchartrain (?) and other areas have been found with anomalous sexual characteristics; studies have blamed abnormally high levels of pesticides / herbicides which mimic hormones. Given that agribusiness uses lots of pesticides to raise our food -- how much pesticide have these unfortunate men ingested?

The overwhelming majority of 'bitch tit' cases are from steroid abuse.

I dunno. My boobs are a lot bigger than the vegan guy who sits next to me who puts soymilk in everything. Where the hell is that pill that's supposed to re-write my DNA to make me skinny? I'm not prepared to switch to an all-pork-chop diet and blow out my kidneys atkins style.

What we have here is a perfect example of an outstanding commentator in one field - information technology - who is left out standing in a field when he tries to comment on another - biochemistry and nutrition. What is eminently clear, and proven in study after study, is that obesity in North Americans is due simply to consumption of too many calories relative to calories burned by activity. Other issues, such as the straining of the glycemic management functions in the body, can also be directly linked to the North American style of eating. Around the world, when indigenous diets are replaced with North American style of high fat, high sugar, large portion eating, obesity and related diseases - including heart disease, stroke, diabetes and gastro-intestinal cancers, among others - skyrocket.

To place the blame on phyto-estrogens, that have been shown in many clinical studies to be relatively protective, is pure speculative nonsense. To implicate Canola oil because of its pedigree (genetically modified from rapeseed oil - "it has to be bad because it has rape in its name") is also pseudo-scientific nonsense.

Dvorak does his credibility a disservice when he weighs in on issues about which he seems to know very little. We are left to question the value of his opinions on topics about which we once believed he was authoritative. This, too, is very sad indeed.

After looking at the gallery, I think that "Bruce" should be more concerned with the state of his liver than the size of his breasts.

Just another example of reflexive vegetarian hating. For every substance there is a conspiracy theory, it seems. I personally am getting tired of people that think that someone is going to snatch the meat from their mouths. Plus there is a (not very) veiled element of misogyny here. If it was anything but a dubious connection between soy consumption and "bitch tits" would any of you fellows be up in arms about this?

"dudes, eating soy turns you into a chick!" gosh, i can't imagine *any* industry that would be interested in getting that message out. kee-rist.

Kimpatsu (/m16) interesting stuff, that saw palmetto breast /
prostrate connection.

Edited by author 06-17-2003 02:39 PM
I've also read (it was a while back, so don't ask me for the source) that excessive soy consumption could cause thyroid problems.

Isn't the increased production of estrogen in puberty the signal to stop bone growth? If there are phytoestrogens in soy, and we feed massive amounts of soy to our kids, does this mean our kids'll be shorter than they might have been? Hmmmmm.

Just goes to show, all things in moderation.

Oh, and big biz agriculture and monoculture suck.

Bitch tits are often associated with use of
steroids - usually testosterone analogues rather
than estrogen analogues. Sounds like two possible
problems that aren't liked.

I don't know about the soybean hypothesis, but my hunch is that there is something particular to the American diet that renders some people enormous.

I have spent most of my life in Europe and the Middle East (I am American) and have seen plenty of overeating (we're talking hours at the dining table, grazing) and total lack of exercise, yet I am always struck by the fact that you simply don't see anything like the number of obese people you do in the US. Fat yes - as in big bellies - but obesity on the scale of the US is simply non-existent anywhere else. I find it hard to believe that Americans eat that much more than anyone else.

I always assumed there is some chemical explanation (hormone-pumped beef, for example) but it may well just be more junk (sugar, etc.). I don't have a clue what the cause is, but the symptoms couldn't be more obvious, and they're scary.

Hrm, wouldn't one expect a group who eats soy products on a pretty much constant basis like say, the Japanese, to be generally huge breasted if this were the case? Seems like a pretty specious argument.

I'd say that people working less with their hands and watching more tv (and having more access to crap food in general) has more of an effect than soyfoods.

Yes, Americans eat too much crap and are thus a bunch of fat pigs, but breast tissue is not all fat. An... uh, a friend of mine suffers a slight case of this condition and he's fairly skinny, eats a decent diet. Exercise has little effect. When his health insurance kicks in he will look into surgery or hormone therapy or something.

Mariachi: totally agreed re: gynecomastia. I was more responding to Mr. Dvorak's theory that soyfoods were the culprit in the "fattening of america". I don't think tofu and soybeans are the major cause of obesity in the US, that's all. =)

According to Jolie Martin Root, Japanese soy consumption is quite a bit different from US "enriched" soy usage. She doesn't mention gynecomastia, though.

Also, I note that for some of us anyway, reading weblogs has supplanted TV. ;-)

It's been a topic of discussion in the fitness community for quite some time. It's thought that there's not enough known about phytoestrogen compounds in soy products and some gym rats (like me) avoid soy products like the plague. Soy is easy enough to avoid if you eat whole foods anyway.

I certainly don't think soy can be majorly attributed to causing obesity. Gyno, maybe. This is a world where diet products and 'health foods' can turn you into a diabetic quicker than burgers ever will.

Edited by author 06-18-2003 01:56 PM
As someone with a case of gynecomastia since puberty, I can assure that the term "bitch tits" is not the preferred moniker.
Can we give any of your medical ailments a funny name and mock you for it?

japanese (and many other asian cultures) eat fermented soy products - mostly tofu, but soy sauce, tempeh, etc. - are most common. the amino acids produced by bio-activity during fermentation help to break down and "predigest" the soy, which is normally very challenging for humans to process efficiently. the estrogen levels of fermented soy foods are considerably lower as well.

western soy consumption is primarily as soy oil which is most typically found in processed food as PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED SOY OIL. PHO's are really nasty, having been bombarded with hydrogen gas under heat and pressure and then bleached (to eliminate the gray color that results) and then further processed for consistency and specific usages. almost all processed foods (even "health foods") have PHO's - usually from soy (but also cottonseed, palm kernel and corn).

i'm not sure which United States Dvorak lives in, but it is impossible for America's obesity problem to be tied to soy foods. i am a vegetarian and i have to choose restaurants carefully lest i be confined to steamed vegetables with rice for $7. i have had more than one experience where i could not eat anything whatsoever at a restraunt because every single item, from the appetizers, lunches, dinners and soups had meat or animal products in them, usually as the centerpiece. just try to find any soy at all at an average restraunt...

outside of oils (which were mentioned earlier) you have to go out of your way to eat a large amount of soy in America. if you aren't trying every day, you just aren't going to get a whole lot in your diet. on the other hand you will be consuming a whole lot of fat, cholesterol, carbohydrates and refined sugars by the truckload, practically by accident. i would think we should do some more research into things people are actually eating.

While I'm here, Fast Food Nation is a great book.

Oh, hey, that's just what the world needs. Another self-appointed expert pushing his latest crackpot theory. Get a life, Dvorak.

on the male breasts and such - if soy estrogens are the culprit, you could look to japan's male population for many examples, which are no doubt few.

beef cattle are no longer injected with or fed estrogen or shot up with hormones, but DAIRY CATTLE are dosed heavily on BRGH (bovin recombinant growth hormone also called RBST) which helps them produce up to 10,000 (that's right, ten thousand) times as much milk per year as non-hormone treated cows. this regimen (and especially their diet, which makes all cattle SICK due to corn and SOY meals which ruminants do not normally eat and really cannot without serious ill health) makes the cow very ill and thus they are pumped full of anti-biotics to fight infections and treat symptoms of hormone OD. these hormones (RBST and BRGH) wind up in DAIRY PRODUCTS which difinitively have been linked with secondary sexual trait formation in humans who consume milk products in childhood.

this explains all those fat small brained asian men with gorgeous tits.

dvorak is without a doubt the lamest guest blogger to date.

Mr. bah! is right. How long until we see the last of Dvorak and have a new guestblogger?

so, we have:

* an attention getting, unattributed picture
* an irrelevant anecdote about bulls growing udders
* more US-centric nonsense ("now that humans are eating soy for the first time, we see more gynomastia")
* thinly veiled hostility towards anybody who chooses to eat a tofu burger instead of a bloody, murder cow burger.
* A complete failure to distinguish correlation from causation (Yes, americans are probably getting fatter as soy consumption increases, but this might be because americans are a bunch of fat lazy slobs.)

This guy calls himself a journalist? ugh.

Whoa - where can I find these fat small-brained asian men? I'm really into that sort of thing.

CONSORTIA the plural of consortium is CONSORTIA

While this condition is real, some of the flabby breasts men have are due to overeating (ie getting fat), getting older (natural muscle breakdown), and lack of exercise (no muscletone).

I am dubious of the extent of this "problem."

What Random Idiot said. Those of us that have gynecomastia know that it can be a real bummer. Not something to be made fun of. Have some compassion, people.

Looking at another part of this lame proposition of soy = breasts, the compounds in questions are isoflavones. You do not get any therapeutic effect from eating foods containing soy oil, or soy protein, or many other soy byproducts because the isoflavone content is extremely low to nonexistent.

If you are worried about hormone-interference causes of obesity and / or gynomastia then you should be looking for research on chemicals which mimic hormone function in much smaller quantities, are not easily broken down by the body and are nearly ubiquitous. Try halogenated organic compounds, i.e. pesticides, instead.

soy products DO contain phytoestrogens. I LOVE how these soy sellers say their products "Promote estrogen balance". What does this mean? Is my estrogen imbalanced? If it isn't, then doesn't the soy product produce estrogen IMbalance??

pasted from http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info18.html

Recent Concerns About Phytoestrogens & Soya Baby Milks:
Recent research from New Zealand(1) raises concerns about the potential adverse effects of phytoestrogens in soya baby milks. The 1994 report from New Zealand examines the toxicity of soya and questions the suitability of feeding babies soya-based infant formulas. The report was co-authored by New Zealand aviculturists Richard and Valerie James, among others, who, ... conferring with other experienced aviculturists and animal breeders in New Zealand, Australia and the US, discovered widespread breeding, growth and behavioural problems and deaths in finches, rabbits, poultry, guinea pigs, cats and fish. Analyses of commercial bird feed and other animal feed indicated that soya ingredients were associated with the toxic effects. They then became concerned about the effects on infants fed a soya-milk formula. From analyses of levels of isoflavones (soya phytoestrogens) in soya-based infant formulas available in New Zealand, the researchers calculated that the biological effects of phytoestrogens typically consumed by a baby drinking soya milk would be 100 times greater than the amount of natural oestrogen the child would receive from breast milk. Their research prompted the New Zealand government to undertake a review of soya-based products for human consumption and to take the issue up with the World Health Organisation.

...
However, evidence also indicates that their action in the human body is complex, and that exposure to endogenous oestrogens, including phytoestrogens in the womb and during early childhood, may pose risks to sexual development. US researcher Claude Hughes and colleagues conclude that exposure to phytoestrogens in the womb and during childhood "could easily exceed the narrow bounds of optimal or physiologic levels and thus be of significant toxicologic concern."(3)

Amounts of Phytoestrogens in Soya
The Food Commission asked companies supplying soya baby milks in the UK to provide information on levels of phytoestrogens. Wyeth (which makes SMA Wysoy - not a completely vegan formula) states that: "Our soy formula contains no more than 20-28µcg/ml (of phytoestrogens) in the reconstituted product". This appears to be approximately two-thirds of the levels found in New Zealand formulas.

Jodi you raise some interesting points.

In /m48 you write:
I LOVE how these soy sellers say their products "Promote estrogen balance". What does this mean?

It is a claim that sounds beneficial but does not require any
FDA approval to me. See for documentation this story from
the Center for Science in the Public Interest's Nutrition
Action Healthletter (my dad is a subscriber):

http://www.cspinet.org/nah/06_03/claim.pdf

And in /m49 you talk about soy milk not being good for babies.
I think any lactation consultant could tell you, nothing is as
good as human milk for human babies.

I've got mild G.

In September my chest started to hurt. I'm growing tissue.

I've been really dormant since September, working a new desk job and no exercise. When I ride the bike regularly the pain goes away. My testosterone levels are low too, but I'm functional. I don't know what the hell is going on.

Do some research into the manufacturing of soy products...what you won't find is much mention of the extraction agent, cetanphynell-4,although it is used in conjunction with the majority of soy products from milk to curd. Originally designed as a pesticide, it was found to compliment the processing of soy so well that it was formally adopted by most American companies over 5 years ago....WITHOUT ANY RESEARCH INTO ITS LONG TERM EFFECTS!!This agent is 150 more toxic than nicotine and most companies do not even list it in their labels....although the FDA claims it has "proven safe for human consumption" other findings suggest it may result in "abnormal levels of estrogen and a decrease in testicular function in men"...having worked in th Canadian soy industry for over 9 years I can honestly say I no longer eat soy products and if you dont want a nice pair of jugs you shouldnt either!

As for bitch tits, I think this is more homage to the fact that American men have no balls, and in fact, are pussies....look at Clay Atkins, George """""Bush""""" and Brad Pitt.... they will all have tits one day...they are all pussies still sucking at the teat...wether it is soy or bovine...

the FDA has not yet approved cetanphynell.....although it is allowing its use by soy manufacturers....this is not new....its been going on for over 12 years here in California...I too share concerns about it's use....if they know this stuff is basically an estrogen supplement why are men being allowed to ingest it in large quantities?

Pinning the blame on soy products is a bit like blaming death metal music for the Columbine tradgedy:

"Pesticides such as DDT, along with pollutants including dioxin and PCBs, have been blamed for feminizing effects in male animals and for a worldwide decrease in human sperm counts." http://www.worldandi.com/public/1996/march/ar4.cfm

"Inadvertently the livestock feed of a farm in Michigan was contaminated with the pesticide Polychlorinated Biphenyl (PCB), a "weak" estrogen imitator. Pregnant women and mothers that breast fed their children who consumed the meat of these animals were horrified to find that their male children developed genital deformities and very small penises. In Taiwan, Chinese scientists have under observation 118 male children of mothers that were contaminated with PBC in an accidental spill in 1989. These boys are suffering from the same painful complications as those from Michigan. In lakes with high concentrations of DDT and DDE, pesticides that also have estrogenic effects, the fauna has been severely degenerated. Alligators of the Apopka lake in Florida have lost virility because of low testosterone and sperm count, consequently the size of their male organs are a fourth of the norm. The Great Lakes are gravely polluted with PCB and DDT, many fish and seagulls that eat them, have developed grotesque hormonal dysfunction that make them hermaphrodite, according to Theo Colburn of the World Wildlife Fund."
http://cancerresourcecenter.com/articles/article38.html

Men and women of NA, look at your own love of plastics and cheap produce!

anyone notice that JD's last two posts have no discussion links - any ideas on that?

My penis has actually grown since I began to drink soy milk in the morning and my breasts are smaller.....so your theory's are wrong...

If men are becoming 'feminized' by soy, etc. products, then why is everyone so damn BALD still?!

It would be so easy to crack a few jokes here, and you have to admit, the guy in the photo there has some great tits, but I can't imagine the pain this condition would cause. I feel the reference to Soy is just tongue-in-cheek, as a satrical rebuttle to the previous conspiracy theories on bovine hormones.

What a drag this "bitch tits" thing is, although I don't know why it isn't called "butch tits" "boy boobs". Thats the way things go though, isn't it. The hair on my head is falling out, hair is growing in my ears and nose like wildfire, and I have to work out like a m-f'er to keep my belly from becoming a basketball. Just imagine all that, and then you start growing jugs!

The real bummer of it is, all the good stuff is wasted on the young. I see some 19 year old goofball, with 20 earrings and tats all over his body, with clothes on that are hanging off his ass like an unmade bed, and he has a fine, nubile babe under his arm. This kid has no idea how lucky he is, and frankly, his little punk self doesn't deserve that. I bet he makes her pay for his meals, plays video games instead of taking her out dancing or something, leaves his skid-marked underwear on the floor, doesn't flush the toilet, and then wants three blow jobs a day.

I've never been one for conspiracy theories really, but perhaps the argument would be aided by some diet/lifestyle research garnered from certain parts of Asia, where soy has been a prominent feature in diets for far longer than the US...?

I'd always assumed there were weight issues in the US due, on average, to very large portions and very little exercise.

A single piece of hard evidence or even some dreaded statistics that did something to back up these baseless assumptions would be *something*, especially from someone who is supposedly a really bright journalist.

But baseless assumption fueled by personal distaste and visual titillation is all we can expect from the journalism world nowadays. John's clearly no exception.

"Is it just a coincidence that... unreferenced trend is happening at the same time as other unreferenced trend?" Way to do the real in-depth reporting there, John. Thanks for spreadi ng the FUD.

Going to gynecomastia.org finds a number of causes of gynecomastia -- the majority of which are hereditary, genetic, or a glandular problem. There is also of course the gynecomastia associated with the hormone and other treatments for testicular cancer, or from steroid use.

Nothing about eating any certain foods. This is just from John's imagination after reading a very selective and narrow set of web pages.

Maybe he's playing a joke on BoingBoing readers. I hope so.

Edited by author 06-27-2003 05:22 PM
Somewhat OT, but I'm curious: John, why do only some of your guestblog entries receive 'Discuss' links?

(I note troublemaker also asked this question too, a few posts back. Any comments?)

Your argument lacks a statistical backbone; you say that this "bitch-tit" epidemic comes at the same time as soy is becoming popular but that is only correlation, not causation. My dog once came in my front door the same time my garage door broke; did my dog cause the garage door to break? No, just as the popularity of soy emerging at the same time as the epidemic does not cause the epidemic. There are other factors to consider, such as the decrease in physical activity of the average American and the increase in consumerism towards foods with higher sugar content and higher fat content other than just soybeans.

Hey guys. Some people said that this guy has absolutely no proof to back up his clame. If you will look a little at the link he provided (Soy Online Service) you can find some medical concerns. Especially upsetting is this quote:
"
...from DHS toxicologist Dr Susan Loscutoff. Loscutoff stated:

"I agree that high levels of dietary exposures to isoflavones in infants fed soy-based formulas is cause for concern".

"I do not agree that parents have a right to know that soy-based formulas contain isoflavones and the kinds of toxicities isoflavones might demonstrate in infants, since parents would not know how to interpret the information."


This kind of response it quite typical of agencies fearing a severe backlash from the soy lobby should they alert the public to the potential health concerns of soy isoflavones.
"
But there are lots of other things on that link.
I think it's pretty silly to suggest that soy is why everyone is getting fatter. We know why everyone is getting fatter. Anyways, gotta get back to my Pizza Hut and three hour movie marathon.

"Bitch tits" is a term used among male bodybuilders who develop enlarged breasts as a result of using anabolic steroids. Then they start using other (gray-market imported) prescription drugs to try to reduce them. But most men I see with large breasts (and I'm a family doctor) are either teenagers (who have a wellknown transient pubertal gynecomastia) and/or obese. I would be surprised if soy has anything to do with it. After all, is there an epidemic of "bitch tits" in countries which have much higher levels of soy in their diet, such as Japan or China?

it notsoy causing the the trend for bitch tits it the lard. americans r the fattest peoplee in the world

Edited by author 12-20-2004 01:58 PM
I have a boyfriend with gynaecomastia and I bought him his first bra - it was a 40C, and soon he will be a D cup. Like many women I think gynaecomastia looks powerfully sexy on a reasonably slim man. If busty boys would only shave their gorgeous bitch-tits and wear sexy bras or basques, they would have a queue of women ready to give them hand-jobs, or even intercourse, any time of the day or night. (I include myself, with my boyfriend's permission - email me your topless photographs!) This is not a disease to be hidden away and cured. It turns a healthy fit man into a sex god. Please, guys, buy the sexiest bra you can find and put yourselves proudly on show.

Beth (beth_44dd@yahoo.com)

Edited by author 01-08-2005 05:50 PM
I was diagnosed with advanced gynaecomastia a while back. I am 41, very masculine, and 100% homosexual. I don't see the need for a bra, that's drag stuff and have come to terms with my breasts which while very big are firm. I have a 48" chest supported on a 32" waist. I find men are curious,excited sometimes scared by the them, but I have learned always to keep my tops XXL, dark and I never go topless except in doors. Other than that they can be a novelty if viewed positively. I have been offered surgery by the UK NHS which we do not pay for here as my huge bust measurements qualify for an op but I will not take it.

Beth, your comments are so inspiring. I wish all people thought like you. I suffer from gyno and do keep my breasts smooth, as well as the rest of my body. It is just cleaner that way, without all that yucky body hair! I have always had breasts that were much larger than a man should have. But, they were not quite into a womanly size. So, I made the choice to start taking Estroven daily and my breasts started growing again and I am now approaching a DD cup size and love every new inch I develop. My wife thinks I look so good as now my waist is shrinking and my hips and butt are filling out. I am getting that hourglass figure that flatters my breasts and does not make them look out of place like before. Only problem now is the only clothes that fit and feel good are womens clothes. I have started to wear these and begin living as a woman. My wife loves this as she now has a girlfriend that she can go out and shop with all day long and then at night in bed has her lover still. :) Anyway, I'm sure she wouldn't mind Beth if we got together. Or any of you other ladies or guys out there. You won't be dissapointed with my appearance. E-mail me at: cdtracym@yahoo.com

Hey, if drinking soy milk increased soemsone's penis, I'd drink gallons of it before lunch. But I also feel maybe the milk marketing board has some say in this anti-soy stuff.
My breasts have grown somewhat in the last ten or twelve years..I like them.

Lastly, is'nt chicken with all its added hormones, etc., to blame for much of what is happening to many people. ( e.g. lower aged puberty )
                                                  Alain

HI Can anybdy tell me how to grow breasts as a woman plaese

Hey Ian,
Saw your query. There are creams for both womane and men that are guaranteed to increase breast size...I was going to buy some but felt $69 was too mcu for me at the time. Keep checking Google for this,\.
I have naturally growing breasts and would like to see them grow more.
The big problem then is how does one buy a bra !

                                                Alain

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-برامج
جوال-مقاطع بلوتوث-مسجات-نغمات-ثيمات-العاب
جوال-تصاميم-هكر-صور-صور
انمي-صور فنانين-ماسنجر-افلام-افلام
اجنبيه
</span>-منتدى للتعارف<span lang="ar-sa">-منتديات
ادبية-منتدى للبنات فقط</span>-العاب<span lang="ar-sa">-العاب
بنات-سكس</span><span lang="ar-sa"><p>اناشيد-صور
سيارات-رياضة-تحميل
اهداف-محمد-سياحة
وسفر-منتديات عامة-منتديات
اسلامية-منتديات سياسيه-تعليم
لغات اجنبيه-تعليم اللغه الانجليزية</p>
<p>نكت-خواطر-شعر-قصص-اساطير-روايات-حكم
وامثال-ازياء-منتدى
العروس-طبخ-طب-علم
النفس-برق-موقع
اغاني-مركز تحميل

منتديات-شات-دردشة-دليل
مواقع-مسجات--ثيمات-صور بنات-صور
حب-1-2-3-4-5
6-7-8-9-10-دردشة
بنت الدلع-دردشة بنات-شات
بنات-شات الحب-دردشة
الحب-منتديات بنات-شات
الغلا-صور رومانسيه-صور
رومنسيه-صور فناين-صور
سيارات-افلام-خواطر-ازياء-صور
حلوه-روايات-كويت
25<span lang="ar-sa">-هيفاء وهبي-بنات
السعودية-موقع عمرو خالد-ناصر
الفراعنة-نانسي عجرم-ياسر
القحطاني-شات-نغمات
نوكيا-قصص وروايات