new

Yea accurancy is rather in the hands of the graph, the search the topic etc.

Variations of the name etc make it difficult.

Old history is difficult to correlate.

To make life easier for those looking for relatives in 2 or 3 generations removed maybe we could put together some details of old graveyards etc ...

A second theme could be the dna of fitzsimones ...which could help develop links to other names accurately..

Im not sure who best company is, or what best prices are, or even if its y genome needed but here is an example

http://www.oxfordancestors.com/



example check out simons simmons etc they could all be variations of fitzsimons.

http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/Default.aspx
simmons

Top Countries
Country FPM
UNITED STATES 714.43
AUSTRALIA 502.23
UNITED KINGDOM 414.59
NEW-ZEALAND 289.92
CANADA 180.63

Thanks Linda, I'll look forward to it.

Mick.

I will send you an invitation to my ancestry.com tree. It has most of the information I have right there. Thanks for all your help.

Linda
>
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Linda, it's a shame the obituary didn't mention where he came from as they quite often do and are a great source of information. I collect Fitzsimons Family Trees, as I get contacted regularly to do research for people (I do this for free), and through cross referencing can sometimes direct people to other distant members of their family researching the same line. I also do this to see if various families connect up, as some families spread far and wide when they left Ireland. If you'd like to send me some more data on your early family, I'll compile a chart to keep on record and send you a copy. ( mickfitzsimons@hotmail.com )

Mick

yes I am on Ancestry.com and they are documents I have found.

Linda
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>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Linda, are you a member of Ancestry.com. There is some member submitted data on there, including an obituary for James Biggs, photos and documents. Are these yours, if not, you may have a relative out there doing the same research.

Mick.

I think he was the second oldest son.
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Well you can add another Fitzsimons to the Toronto area - I started working in Toronto in June 2009. Moved here from Florida. But I am actually Irish Irish - parents still live in Ireland still - Co Weatmeath. I just been relocating around the world following IT Projects.

Paul

Linda, they were Church of England, so most probably came from the North of Ireland. Looks like a few of the children died young as some of the names have been repeated in later years. Also puzzling is Isaac’s date of birth (1843), so he must have been born before James Biggs. Isaac Snr. must have been absent when the 1881 census was taken.

Mick.

yes they did.

Linda
< replied-to message removed by QT >

 G’day Linda,

Did your Isaac and Isabella live in St. David’s Ward, Toronto, York, Ontario?

Mick.

Reply to William (Bill) Fitzsimons.

G’day Bill,

It wouldn’t surprise me of a Fitzsimons family in Holland. The Irish moved around a lot and they could have gone there for any number of reasons. You quite often find Irish, English and Scottish names on the continent, and the reverse.

When I was young, I thought that Fitzsimons was a rare name too. There were only a handful in the Melbourne telephone directory and most were related to me. There has since been an influx from Ireland and I have several Irish Fitzsimons families where I now live.

MacLysaght is a very good source. Very comprehensive.

I have found most of the family in Canada. I even know where some of the graves are .
I actually found out what my great grreat grandfathers first name was through the archiver at St James
Cathedral's (Anglican)in Toronto. She looked up the registration of my Great great grandfather's wedding. His parnets names were there. My problem is finding information from Ireland. I am quite sure they lived in Northern Ireland but am not
sure where. Isaac was apparently a remittance man so the family in Ireland paid him to stay away. They supposedly didn't have anything more to do with him. The family story is that he married the governess and was banished, but who
knows if that is even the truth.
 I know his name was Isaac Fitzsimons and his wife's name was Isabella. Their oldest son James had the second name Biggs so I think that may have been his mother Isabella's surname- but it is a guess. I Know James Biggs went to school in Ireland because he and his wife went to Ireland to get one of his paintings that was in his school.

Isaac, Isabella and their 6 children ( James Biggs (10 yrs old) ,George - 10, John -7. Ann -6, Thomas -2 and Isabella -infant); sailed from Liverpool in 1856 and arrived in New York on July 6 1856. They sailed on the Antarctic. They somehow got to Toronto or York as it was then know and lived there until their deaths. Isaac on Dec. 11,1917. Isabella Feb.29,1904. I have no idea how to find out whotheir families were or where they lived.
 My own family lived in Barrie Ontario just North of Toronto.
Thanks for your help.

Linda
< replied-to message removed by QT >

From William Fitzsimons
Bonny Hills
Australia

Like Linda Mc Dowell, I am finding this forum extremely interesting. I also grew up thinking that Fitzsimons was an unusual name. As I read through this forum I am finding out that there is much more to the family's history that passed on to me by my father. About twenty years ago when I was a member of
the New South Police I met a woman who upon learning my name asked me if I was from a Dutch background. When I informed her that my father had come from Belfast she informed me that she had a grandmother in Holland by the name of Fitzsimons, and that the family had resided in Holland for many generations. Does anybody know anything about this?.
Once again thanks for the great forum.

Regards
William (Bill) Fitzsimons

< replied-to message removed by QT >

G’day Linda,

Welcome to the Forum. What part of Ontario do you come from? Although I’m an Aussie, I’ve done a lot or research in Ontario (not the Fitzsimons name), and they have some very good records, church, census, land grants and local history centres etc. If your family stayed mainly in the one county, it will be easier to find them. A document somewhere, may hold the key and tell you where your great, grandfather came from. Was he married before he left Ireland, or after he reached Canada? His trade if known may also help, as well as the year he arrived to search shipping records. Many who ended up in Ontario, come through New York. He may have had relatives on his paternal or maternal side, which prompted him to immigrate, so there is another avenue to explore.

If you can give the Forum some dates and names, maybe someone will se it that is related.

Good luck.

I think this discussion is exceptionally interesting. I grew up in a small town in Ontario, Canada and thought that Fitzsimons, was a very unusual name. There was one other family in the town I grew up in but they spelled their name Fitzsimmons ( however even if we were not closely relatedd, the girls in the family did look like my sisters and I) . It wasn't until I started to try to find my family's connections that I found out how common the name was.

  I thought it would be easy to find out where in Ireland, my great, great grandfather originated and easy to find his family , however I was greatly mistaken. He was a remittance man,( or so the story goes )and I have no way of progressing , or should I say regressing in my search for his family. This forum has really opened my eyes and I find it extremely interesting. Please keep it going.

Your relative-- (who knows how distant)

Linda Fitzsimons


>
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Thank you Henry for all your very interesting data. Here is an interesting piece from;- Irish Families: Their Names, Arms and Origins. Third Edition 1972, by Edward MacLysaght.

FITZSIMONS. This name might have been treated as Hiberno-Norman, but it has been placed here rather than Part II because it differs from the names included there, in that category (like Fitzgerald and Burke) in two main respects: First it is by no means peculiar to Ireland being, indeed, much more usual in England, and secondly there are no basic arms common to all armigerous Irish Fitzsimons families.

He then goes on to explain when the various branches came to Ireland.

It’s interesting that he states there are no basic arms for the Irish Fitzsimons families, yet we generally only see the one. I have come across another Irish one that is also listed as Fitzsimmons. In England however, there are several and the Irish one that we are all accustomed to is the same as that of ;- Fitz Simon, Sir Hugh and John –(E. III. Roll). Ashmore and St. George Rolls. RICHARD, K.G., a founder, bore the reverse in Arundel and Surrey Roll. [The original inscription under the actual coat of arms is ‘Foan le fil Simon’.]

Unfortunately the different coat of arms for various branches are extremely hard to come by, unless you pay a lot of money to get them, as the various Heraldic suppliers don’t give anything away for nothing and the books they use are extremely expensive to buy.

MacLysaght also treats Fitzsimmons as a variant of Fitzsimons. As for British books on the name, one that I have seen lists them as separate, yet states it is impossible to distinguish between the various origins;- Simon, Sigmund, Simond ect., which would indicate to me (my opinion), that they have the same origins when you read the associated data.

Henry, the lists you give for the name from other countries around the world is also interesting, though I don’t know how much credence can be given to those countries outside of Ireland and probably Britain for that matter. As the name has been subjected to so much butchering (even in Ireland), I doubt these figures would be an accurate account of the Fitzsimons name.

As with all things Fitzsimons, nothing is ever simple, or clear cut.

 Top Countries for Fitzsimons

Country FPopulation Million

1st IRELAND 721.7
2nd NEW-ZEALAND 56.79
3rd UNITED KINGDOM 47.99
4th AUSTRALIA 45.56
5th UNITED STATES 9.13
6th CANADA 6.19
7th ARGENTINA 4.75
8th SWITZERLAND 1.28
9th SWEDEN 1.26
10th AUSTRIA 1.19

Top Citys
BELFAST ,
DOWNPATRICK ,
LIVERPOOL ,
MANCHESTER ,
GLASGOW ,
CARLISLE , NORTH , UNITED KINGDOM
BIRMINGHAM , WEST MIDLANDS , UNITED KINGDOM
COVENTRY , WEST MIDLANDS , UNITED KINGDOM
BALLYNAHINCH , NORTHERN IRELAND , UNITED KINGDOM
WHITEHAVEN , NORTH , UNITED KINGDOM


 Top Forenames
Forename
JOHN
MICHAEL
PATRICK
PAUL
MARGARET
ROBERT
THOMAS
DAVID
ELIZABETH
WILLIAM

http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/Default.aspx

Edited by author 25-12-2009 10:55 PM
Man Dear Christmas day research is beyond the pale as they say MERRY CHRISTMAS OR "Nollaig Shona Duit"

(I was putting songs on childs ipod honest)

Statistics for Fitzsimmons (2Ms)

1st down 151
2nd antrim 118
3rd dublin 95
4th cavan 25
5th rosscommon 21
6th meath 18
7th longford 16
8th monaghan 16
9th westmeath 12
10th armagh 10
10th queens county 10

waterford 2 tyrone 2 tipperary 0 sligo 1 wicklow 2 wexford 5
mayo 0 louth 5 londonderry 2 limerick 6 leitrim 0 kings county 2
kilkenny 0 kildare 4 kerry 0 galway 0 fermanagh 0
donegal 4 cork 5 clare 0 carlow 1

Fitzsimmons In 24 counties

Edited by author 25-12-2009 10:42 PM
Statistics for Fitzsimmons (2Ms)

wicklow 2
wexford 5
westmeath 12 9th
waterford 2
tyrone 2
tipperary 0
sligo 1
rosscommon 21 5th
queens county 10 10th
monaghan 16 8th
meath 18 6th
mayo 0
louth 5
longford 16 7th
londonderry 2
limerick 6
leitrim 0
kings county 2
kilkenny 0
kildare 4
kerry 0
galway 0
fermanagh 0
dublin 95 3rd
down 151 1st
donegal 4
cork 5
clare 0
cavan 25 4th
carlow 1
armagh 10 10th
antrim 118 2nd

Edited by author 25-12-2009 10:26 PM
The number of people with the Surname of Fitzsimons or Fitzsimmons in Ireland in 1911 according to the census was 3109.

There were total of 2576 with one M
There were 533 with 2 Ms
I think it may be down to mispelling of name.

Below is Fitzsimons (1m)in EACH COUNTY IN IRELAND IN 1911
I will post all details of 2 ms to various counties for overall county pictures

Fitzsimons 1 ms

(Top 10)
1.down 526
2.cavan 458
3.dublin 414
4.meath 319
5.antrim 149
6.westmeath 141
7.kildare 101
8.wexford 75
9.wicklow 56
10.kings county 44
10.longford 44

wicklow 56,wexford 75,westmeath 141,waterford 4,tyrone 23,tipperary 2,sligo 6,rosscommon 17,queens county 14,monaghan 20,meath 319,mayo 10,louth 43,longford 44,londonderry 2,limerick 25
leitrim 0,kings county 44,kilkenny 0,kildare 101,kerry 5,galway 7,fermanagh 4,dublin 414,down 526,donegal 21,cork 26,clare 0,cavan 458,carlow 0,armagh 20,antrim 149

29 out of 32 COUNTIES HAVE FITZSIMONS
(3 dont clare, carlow, kilkenny)


http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

Remembering the Famine victims it probably effected all Counties so figures would be higher.

(Irish, Gaelic, Old English), and the meaning of Gaill is "foreigner; cheerful, happy"

"More Irish than the Irish themselves" (Irish: Níos Gaelaí ná na Gaeil iad féin, Latin: Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis) was a phrase used in the Middle Ages to describe the phenomenon whereby foreigners who came to Ireland attached to invasion forces tended to be subsumed into Irish social and cultural society, adopted the Irish language, Irish culture, style of dress and a wholesale identification with all things Irish.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Irish_than_the_Irish_themselves

Gaelic clans and Hiberno-Normans



The term Hiberno-Norman is used of those Norman lords who settled in Ireland, admitting little if any real fealty to the Anglo-Norman settlers in England.[1] It refers to both the origins of the community and the dialect of Norman-French used by them as they developed in Ireland from 1169 until the eclipse of the Hiberno-Norman community in the early seventeenth century. In the process they became Hiberniores Ipsis Hibernis. The prefix "Hiberno" means "relating to Ireland or the Irish", from Hibernia. The Clan Burke, FitzGeralds, Butlers, and de Berminghams are the more noted among them. ("Fitz" is a particularly Hiberno-Norman prefix, meaning 'son', cf. modern French "fils" with the same meaning).

By the late 16th century, the Hiberno-Normans began to be referred to as the Old English. In the Irish language, they were known as the gaill or "foreigners". Englishmen born in England however were called Sasanaigh or "Saxons", and there was a very strong distinction made between Gaill and Sasanaigh in the Irish annals, with the former being referred to variously as Fionnghaill or Dubhghaill depending upon how much the poet wished to flatter his patron.[2]


Plantations in 16th and 17th century Ireland were the confiscation of land by the Government of England and the colonisation of this land with settlers from England and Scotland.

The Plantations were established throughout the country by the confiscation of lands occupied by Gaelic clans and Hiberno-Norman dynasties, but principally in the provinces of Munster and Ulster.

 The lands were then granted by Crown authority to colonists ("planters") from Britain. This process began during the reign of Henry VIII and continued under Mary I and Elizabeth I. It was accelerated under James I, Charles I and Cromwell.

The early plantations in the 16th century tended to be based on small "exemplary" colonies. The later plantations were based on mass confiscations of land from Irish landowners and the subsequent importation of large numbers of settlers from England, Scotland and Wales.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland

Edited by author 25-12-2009 09:01 PM
I suppose when you go online with lots of research you have done it becomes very passionate because we are trying to convey an idea or a fact we have soemtimes by collaborating we can become even more knowledgeable because who knows everything or even understands it?

I hope you guys keep up the good work and Simons points are very well put. Moderators on any forum have a lot to put up with thanks guys for the cool heads and the forum..

So some fitzsimonses are from meath some are from scotland some are from penbrokeshire wales i think and some from middle england.
Lots came over with William the Conqueror who built tower of london :)
Normans and John de Courcy

My grandfather is from Co Down amd named Fitzsimons but government employees always spell it fitzsimmons!! no matter apparently fitz means fils which is french and means son of.. I would love to hear any research about the religious persuausion of people in county down, after all people are people and a fitzsimons is a fitzsimons (m) whether buddist hindu or pagan etc...ps apparently 85% of population have O+ blood groupimg more akin to scandinivain vikings!! lol

Edited by author 20-12-2009 02:27 PM
Howdy, gentlemen,

Thanks a lot for all your patience, everybody.

I understand what you are saying, Wayne. I can have a very irritating way of arguing (I realize it now). I had thought that I was on friendly terms with everybody, but then reverted to aggressivity when I thought Mick wasn't paying attention to me and dismissing my posts as emotional and upset. I was never insulting people personally, though I now cringe at the realization that I was being very insulting. I was attacking the situation, and what I perceived to be people's avoiding the points and questions that I was putting forward, which can apparently be very frustrating online. So when I casually let loose what seemed to me not-so-offensive, and even playful beratings, I was wrong and stupid to think that they would be interpreted as such.

The first post that you responded to, dear Wayne, I put up not really expecting an answer, since I had posted something many months ago and no-one had payed attention. When you responded as you did, reasonably to what was really a thoughtless comment, I responded by engaging on many fronts at the same time: I was trying to apologize for being insulting, while explaining why I was somewhat offended by the situation (or why I thought the situation deserved more thought), while trying to organize my thoughts and present a coherent argument. But I made many mistakes. No wonder it became an epic fiasco, trying to engage on so many levels at once.

I rarely engage in online discussions, and have learnt some valuable lessons, even life lessons, from this one. I know now that one must be absolutely courteous at all times; I literally have a marred conscience because I feel I have been immature, insulting, disrespectful, and thoughtless while trying to demand respect and thought from you guys. I let my frustration get the better of me - not my frustration concerning the actual argument, towards which I feel a proper historian's detachment, but my frustration at feeling that I was dealing with intelligent human beings who were not paying attention to me.

Of course, you all have many better things to do, and I feel abashed and like a real jerk now that I realize that Mick has actually put some of his time and serious thought into my argument, when really I deserved a cyber-slap in the face. I continually regressed into childishness when what was called for was ... something better.

I also learned about my beloved subject, Irish history.

I am quite astonished at the readiness people showed in inserting an extra M into the name Fitzsimons, every step of the way - on the census records, and while putting up the site.

"As for so many Co. Down Fitzsimmons’ being Presbyterian, this could be because so many Scots were brought over by the English as workers. Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons is also found in Scotland. It could also have to do with what area they live in, as a certain area may cater more for one religious group that another. This would require more work than I have to spare at this time."

Yes, that sounds about right. Thanks for that! I will look into this subject more, out of a general interest, and it seems that investigating these issues and others sheds light on the history of the area as a whole, which is quite interesting. I will send you an email with some comments, but by all means don't waste another second on me.

Thanks to Henry, by the way, for his helpful and humorous donations to the debate, and the Shaw.

Finally, since you all have such a grand apprecation for all things Irish, I must recommend the novels of Flann O'Brien, pseudonym for Brian O'Nolan, born in Strabane, County Tyrone, 1911, an amazing Irish writer who will give you a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling inside. His novel "At Swim-Two-Birds" is the most delightful thing I have ever read. You can give him as a gift, or read him yourself. You will not regret anything where he is concerned.

I love you guys, :)

-Simon

Simon,

The reason my article referred to Protestant and Catholic, was because that was the main problem of the ‘troubles’ in Ireland and they are the two main religions. I incorrectly grouped Presbyterians with Protestants, as I was dealing with the main religions, being Catholic and non-Catholic.

As for so many Co. Down Fitzsimmons’ being Presbyterian, this could be because so many Scots were brought over by the English as workers. Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons is also found in Scotland. It could also have to do with what area they live in, as a certain area may cater more for one religious group that another. This would require more work than I have to spare at this time.

Anyway Simon, I have e-mailed you my findings and I have really spent more time on this subject than I have to spare at this time of year. Sometimes people will not agree on something, no matter what the evidence is and as this is such a complex issue with this surname, it becomes even more difficult.

Thanks Henry for your input and the quotes. There certainly was no food shortage during the famine, as apart from the failure of the potato crops, there were bumper harvests in all other produce. A very sad time in Irish history.

Regards and a Marry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

Mick Fitzsimons

Simon,
I am surprised by your arrant assertion "The only reason I could imagine for Wayne's wanting to delete my posts is that either he doesn't want to engage the argument at the same intense level at which I am engaging, or he simply isn't interested in reading my posts (I can understand that), or he isn't used to the increased action that this forum is experiencing."

You don't have to "imagine" a thing. You still haven't got it have you. The sole reason is your personal attack and insults when someone doesn't agree with you. For example "anyone with a brain" etc. So to be clear (since you missed the point entirely) it is your unnecessary rudeness. Let's have less of the cyclic insults and insincere apology. You say you made the mistake of "expecting you folks to adopt the kind of academic and coherent approach to the debate that I tried to implement."

You did NOT try to implement anything like that. Don't push this any further.

Oh yes, one more thing. If the Fitzsimmonses in county Down were originally English, why would they convert to Presbyterianism? Presbyterians also suffered under the Penal Laws, and it wasn't until more recently that all Protestants grouped together; thus it was not beneficial for these Anglicans to convert to Presbyterianism, any more than it would have been to convert to Catholicism. Is there some reason that I am not aware of as to why there are twice as many Presbyterian Fitzsimmonses as there are Anglican ones?

Friends, this hasn't "upset [me] so much." I am a University student who is well-read and used to academic arguments. I admit I made the mistake of impuning your Irishness in my earlier posts, before I adopted a more professional attitude. I also made the mistake of expecting you folks to adopt the kind of academic and coherent approach to the debate that I tried to implement. The only way to get anywhere in any debate, especially ones which take place over half the planet, is to map out the argument coherently, and address each point in turn.

Now, Wayne's threat of banishment and instant deletion of my posts is frankly a little un-called for. I do not think that the post which he cited as being "puerile" and "insulting" was any of those things. At worst it may have been flippant. But you must understand that at the time I was responding to posts which were not acknowledging my actual arguments and which accused me of being ill-informed and having a "blinkered view" on Irish history.

The only reason I could imagine for Wayne's wanting to delete my posts is that either he doesn't want to engage the argument at the same intense level at which I am engaging, or he simply isn't interested in reading my posts (I can understand that), or he isn't used to the increased action that this forum is experiencing.

We are actually getting somewhere here. To back off now would be fainthearted.

Now, I present my revised argument, given Mick's findings.

I do somewhat resent the way that Mick implies my "tampering" with the evidence by saying I "said family," and etc. I said Household, and I said also that I included servants and boarders. I maybe should have specified that I put these servants and boarders under the title "household," and I should have said instead, "household containing a Fitzsimmons boarder or servant." But this hardly compromises my work on the Census.

Now, it appears from Mick's findings, some of which I have double checked, that many people were recorded as FitzsiMMons when in fact they signed their papers as FitzsiMons. Even though most of those catholics I listed as Fitzsimmonses were actually single-M, doesn't mean my argument is shot down, it just means that Mick's ISN'T shot down, in flames.

The testimony of my grandfather lends credence to Mick's argument. But I never doubted that double-M was a more protestant spelling.

CRUCIAL:
My argument was that many of those FitzsiMMonses which were grouped by Mick's article has having English origins actually were originally FitzsiMonses, but converted. And there is still wind in my sails.

Now, my BIG QUESTION is, why are most of the Fitzsimmonses in county Down Presbyterian rather than Anglican? How do you know that these didn't convert to Presbyterianism and have an extra M added?

Maybe over time the name Fitzsimmons came to be associated with protestantism, and thus the British, even though many of the Fitzsimmons families who were protestant were orginally FitzsiMons and had an M added?

These are all valid questions. My whole argument has always been valid. I have learned a lot over the past few days!

Can't you understand that all I wanted was for you to make exception for the true complexity of historical happenings?

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, and I'm sorry if you delete me and show me thta I was worng to expect democratic treatment on your site.

However, if you delete me I will not pester you any longer, that IS puerile behaviour.

Mick, if you do edit your article, maybe you should mention that most Fitzsimmonses in county Down are Presbyterian.

Now, good night!

a cest la vie they are french catholics from Normandy....quest que cest

Mick!

I tried emailing your address that is listed in your article, and they told me it wasn't found. I will try again, in case I misread your address.

I still have a few questions to discuss with you, particularly about County Down.

Here is my email address: simonandrewsheeran@rocketmail.com

Please email me!

Thanks again for engaging my argument. I am almost entirely convinced that you are right at this point, since the main piece of evidence, the Census Archives, has proven a shaky foundation.

Wayne, this is fun. My offending post was mainly a coherent presentation of my argument, and some dishing back of insults that I had received from Mick. We're Irish, for goodness' sake, aren't we allowed to agrue with eachother?

But all in all, Mick, I thank you for your patience. You may hear from me in the future via email, as all I wanted (initially) was to learn more about this subject.

By the way, I didn't say they were "families," but "households," meaning households that have Fitzsimmonses in them (remember I said I included servants and boarders!), assuming that anybody who would go and check would realize that was what I meant.

Mick:

That is interesting; I admit I did not think to look at the signatures, and I will go over them again, as it is now apparent that I made some mistakes.

Wayne:

Give me a break. I was responding to insults and puerility, myself. But delete away, my man, by all means.

Edited by author 19-12-2009 08:44 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fitzsimons

Fitzsimons was born in Ireland around 1741

It would be great to find out where he came from...

Its simple really the Invaders became more Irish than the Irish themselves they intermarried therefore becoming Irish they fought alongside the Irish,married, traded etc etc for hundreds of years with no problem
only until the King thought that they were becoming too powerful was there a problem in Ireland so he sent Cromwell, the plantations people scottish, the laws the penal laws no catholic religion no irish language and pen ultimatley the famine.
However in between there was revolution against this 1798, 1916, etc.

Several writers single out the decision of the government to permit the continued export of food from Ireland as suggestive of the policy-makers attitude. Leon Uris suggested that "there was ample food within Ireland", while all the Irish-bred cattle were being shipped off to England.[138] The following exchange appeared in Act IV of George Bernard Shaw's play Man and Superman:

    MALONE. He will get over it all right enough. Men thrive better on disappointments in love than on disappointments in money. I daresay you think that sordid; but I know what I'm talking about. My father died of starvation in Ireland in the black 47, Maybe you've heard of it.
    VIOLET. The Famine?
    MALONE. [with smouldering passion] No, the starvation. When a country is full of food, and exporting it, there can be no famine. My father was starved dead; and I was starved out to America in my mother's arms. English rule drove me and mine out of Ireland. Well, you can keep Ireland. I and my like are coming back to buy England; and we'll buy the best of it. I want no middle class properties and no middle class women for Hector. That's straightforward isn't it, like yourself?[139]



Numbers in the famine/holocoust are disputed from 1million to 6 million. It is helpful to Britain if numbers are less and this subject is buried with the bodies however it was ethnic clensing in my opinion, even in 1852 after the famine the powers that be were evicting the survivors from their homes mass evictions mass genocide (the reason was they needed the land cleared for cattle and the production of meat as lots of land was neeed for grazing so in effect they cleared the indigineous people of the land by starvation and eviction, murder)

Incidentally all records prior to 1852 eg ownership of lands etc are very hard to come by for an organised empire meticulous with censuses etc it is strange cover up ??

I suppose thats were trevelyn got his corn..

Sometimes people get their come uppance England lost the Empire from 1916 rebellion onwards once Ireland broke away from this cruelty of empire so many other countries wanted independance much like russia today.
So did many Irish Americans when they built the USA and fought against the british.
Conincidentially look up the govenor of Pennsyvania at this time as he was one of the signatories of the Constitution of America. :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29
http://www.irishholocaust.org/tollofholocaust

Edited by author 19-12-2009 08:24 PM
Its simple really the Invaders became more Irish than the Irish themselves they intermarried therefore becoming Irish they fought alongside the Irish,married, traded etc etc for hundreds of years with no problem
only until the King thought that they were becoming too powerful was there a problem in Ireland so he sent Cromwell, the plantations people scottish, the laws the penal laws no catholic religion no irish language and pen ultimatley the famine.
However in between there was revolution against this 1798, 1916, etc.

Several writers single out the decision of the government to permit the continued export of food from Ireland as suggestive of the policy-makers attitude. Leon Uris suggested that "there was ample food within Ireland", while all the Irish-bred cattle were being shipped off to England.[138] The following exchange appeared in Act IV of George Bernard Shaw's play Man and Superman:

    MALONE. He will get over it all right enough. Men thrive better on disappointments in love than on disappointments in money. I daresay you think that sordid; but I know what I'm talking about. My father died of starvation in Ireland in the black 47, Maybe you've heard of it.
    VIOLET. The Famine?
    MALONE. [with smouldering passion] No, the starvation. When a country is full of food, and exporting it, there can be no famine. My father was starved dead; and I was starved out to America in my mother's arms. English rule drove me and mine out of Ireland. Well, you can keep Ireland. I and my like are coming back to buy England; and we'll buy the best of it. I want no middle class properties and no middle class women for Hector. That's straightforward isn't it, like yourself?[139]



Numbers in the famine/holocoust are disputed from 1million to 6 million. It is helpful to Britain if numbers are less and this subject is buried with the bodies however it was ethnic clensing in my opinion, even in 1852 after the famine the powers that be were evicting the survivors from their homes mass evictions mass genocide. Incidentally all records prior to 1852 eg ownership of lands etc are very hard to come by for an organised empire meticulous with censuses etc it is strange cover up ??

I suppose thats were trevelyn got his corn..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29
http://www.irishholocaust.org/tollofholocaust

To add a little more information as thats the way to gain real truth is evidence i have noticed part of an article below

If the Fitzsimmonses in County Down have English origins, wouldn't the majority of them be in the Church of Ireland, rather than Catholic and Presbyterian (Presbyterian being what most Scots-Irish are)? This supports my argument that many converted to Presbyterianism or Anglicanism because that's what many people did back then - at least in Northern Ireland - giving in to the pressure to do so.

My family are from county down there are 2 Churches in the vicinity one is church of ireland the other is roman catholic


In the Church of Ireland graveyard there is a Christian Fitzsimons (an old slate grave which i had to rub to find lol with water what a nut) she was a lady whom incidentally i have placed her name to my own daughter hannah christian nice i think, shes 13 now so its been 14 years since i did my research.
Time flys anyhow in the Roman Catholic Church St malachys was built by a priest named Thomas Fitzsimons and its called St Malachys on Bishopscourt road kILCLIEF not far from Strangford large plaque confirms this there are numerous fitzsimons graves (most of the graveyard in fact)around 1800s and the church was built around 1600s maybe it has to do with cromwells persecution at the time??

So originally we were Church of Ireland until the great persecutions around plantation time cromwell. And many died in famine times plague and hunger although as George Bernard Shaw said there An Gorta Mór

Several writers single out the decision of the government to permit the continued export of food from Ireland as suggestive of the policy-makers attitude. Leon Uris suggested that "there was ample food within Ireland", while all the Irish-bred cattle were being shipped off to England.[138] The following exchange appeared in Act IV of George Bernard Shaw's play Man and Superman:

    MALONE. He will get over it all right enough. Men thrive better on disappointments in love than on disappointments in money. I daresay you think that sordid; but I know what I'm talking about. My father died of starvation in Ireland in the black 47, Maybe you've heard of it.
    VIOLET. The Famine?
    MALONE. [with smouldering passion] No, the starvation. When a country is full of food, and exporting it, there can be no famine. My father was starved dead; and I was starved out to America in my mother's arms. English rule drove me and mine out of Ireland. Well, you can keep Ireland. I and my like are coming back to buy England; and we'll buy the best of it. I want no middle class properties and no middle class women for Hector. That's straightforward isn't it, like yourself?[139]
 

(which i am part of although non practising)

Edited by author 19-12-2009 06:36 PM
Simon Sheeran
The below posting of yours (18th December 8:14am) is the very last puerile and insulting outburst that you will make here. Please note that ANY further posting of yours will be immediately deleted.

To Paul,

“Bangs Simon and Mick heads together”. Now Paul, I’d like to see that! I hope for your sake your not punching out of your weight, as I will visit Ireland again one day and might give you the opportunity to try it. Pity you couldn’t add something constructive to this debate. We all know the name has been misspelt in Ireland and butchered even further abroad. I was in Ireland in 1997 and never had my name misspelt of mispronounced once, though I did not visit the North.

Now for Simon.

Firstly, I’d like to thank you for your honesty in relating what your grandfather had to say, even though you don’t put much credence in it.

I checked through the 1911 census for Dublin, each and every one of them. You might be surprised that I came up with a different finding to what you did.


Roman Catholic.
13 Families. Includes single person families in one dwelling. You said 14.
17 Single. Includes servants, nuns, teachers, boarder and paupers etc.

7 Families had their surname mispelt by the website.
8 Singles had their surname mispelt by the website.
3 Families filled in by someone else and signed Fitzsimons.
1 Familie’s details filled in by someone else.
10 Single people’s names recorded by someone else.

Church of Ireland.
4 Families. 2 Single You said 6 families.
        
Protestant.
1 Single. Servant. Details filled in by someone else.

Presbyterian.
1 Family.

So, of the 13 Catholic Families, if you remove the 7 that the website misspelt and the 3 that had their census form filled in by someone else and signed as Fitzsimons, we get 3 families that were Catholic, not 14 as you claim. Then there is one that was filled in by someone else and the head of the house may have signed with the spelling that person used. That takes us back to 2 Catholic Fitzsimmons Families.

Even though these people were listed as being able to ‘read and write’, their writing skills may have been very limited. The transcribers for the website, who would have been far better educated, put an extra ‘m’ in the names of 7 families and 8 single people. So what hope did semi literate people have?

If you still wish to dispute these figures, I can e-mail you the detailed analysis and breakdown of these families and single people.

Simon, I agree that people had to change religion for many reasons (mainly persecution), so I don’t see why you are pushing this point, especially when you are bringing other Irish names into it. We are discussing the Fitzsimons name here only. It is the spelling that is in question and how it generally and is widely considered (even by your grandfather), to relate to religion.

My father called himself Fitzsimmons, because that’s what he was called and it didn’t bother him. It wasn’t until his mother-in-law found out that it was Fitzsimons and she was a stickler for correct spelling and pronunciation and my mother followed suit, so we reverted back to Fitzsimons.

I reiterate, the article I wrote was to help people in researching the surname. It was not anti Anglican, Presbyterian or anti British. Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons is generally regarded as an Irish name and I was pointing out that it wasn’t and people with this name should not automatically assume they have Irish roots and be searching in the wrong country. They should also not discount other spellings of the name, as there can be variations in the one family.

I still stand by what I say, as my research has been going on for over 30 years, not only my own branch, but for countless other Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons (and other variants), families all over the world, helping them find their roots.

As this subject has upset you so much, I may re-write my article to explain a little better my thoughts and what I have been trying to put across, so that no-one can take offence.

Edited by author 19-12-2009 02:59 AM
Hi again, fellows.

Well, I must admit to have had a lot of fun with my recent researches. I hope we are all on amicable terms by now - I admit to being a tosser, and no-one can argue that!

However, you may all be surprised at the results of my investigation.

I looked at EVERY Fitzsimmons household in Dublin, AND Down. I skipped the following:

-People who were in schools, as it is difficult to find them in those long lists.
-People who were actually Fitzsimons, their names having been misread by the people who put up the site.

I also included servants and boarders, why shouldn't we?

THE RESULTS:

In Dublin:

14 Households were Catholic,
6 Households were in the Anglican Church of Ireland,
1 Household was Presbyterian.

In County Down:

23 Households were Catholic,
6 Households were in the Anglican Church of Ireland,
12 Households were Presbyterian.
1 Household was Methodist.

---

Now, even I was surprised at the majority of Fitzsimmons households that were Catholic, complete with larger families and everything. I double-checked everyone, just to make sure I didn't include any single-M Fitzsimons. No, every one of these were double-M's, and in both Dublin and Down the majority were Catholics. If this doesn't lend credence to my argument I don't know what much more you could ask for.

However, to volunteer some "hearsay" evidence: My father asked his father, a Sheeran who grew up in Dublin a Catholic, about the name Fitzsimmons, and Grandad said that it was usually assumed where he grew up that the Fitzsimmonses (MM) are Anglo-Irish. He also said that they were Presbyterian, which further complicates this question, but which is supported by the census records. (Since my dad talked to him, I'm not sure exactly what he said, but I know both the terms "Anglo-Irish" and "Presbyterian" were used in connection with Fitzsimmons.)

So my grandfather would agree with what many of you have been saying, about the double-M's being Anglo/Protestant; but my own evidence disputes the universality of this statement.

If the Fitzsimmonses in County Down have English origins, wouldn't the majority of them be in the Church of Ireland, rather than Catholic and Presbyterian (Presbyterian being what most Scots-Irish are)? This supports my argument that many converted to Presbyterianism or Anglicanism because that's what many people did back then - at least in Northern Ireland - giving in to the pressure to do so.

I still, therefore, stand by my argument as expounded in my previous post, and bid you all a good night and merry Christmas!

[In response to Paul's message, which showed up while I was writing this one:

Thank you, Paul, I agree wholeheartedly. At any rate, I have convinced myself.]

Edited by author 18-12-2009 11:40 AM
Bangs Simon and Mick heads together.

Stop now - tis a waste....

Ni neart go cur le cheile
"there is no strength without unity

And to stop this i will remind you all - in Ireland - the Fitzsimons name has been mispelled many times - including in checking in to a hotel and also at Birth, marriages etc - the priest back then were the local educators and also officials to document certificates - and if he decided to spell ya great great dad with one or 2 m's then so be it.

As a one M Fitzsimons - i am proud to know of kind and funny 2 mm fitzsimmons.

ps my Mum and Dad are both born and live in Ireland Co Westmeath, and yes we are Catholic.

I don't care much for the Irish north or religion discussion - but that is a view from the 19xx's and the Troubles are OVER - so celebrate that the irish and their brothers in the north are at peace - peace to all around the world - tis xmas!.


Now why complain and just Buy a few airline tickets and visit our great country - there are many Fitzsimons Pubs that you can pose in front of for pictures and drink real Irish Guinness.

Edited by author 18-12-2009 10:16 AM
This is the last time I will waste any energy on this godforsaken subject. You are not addressing any of my actual points, and you have obviously not read my posts in depth. You continually revert to truisms and obvious, broad generalizations. Not only do I not have a blinkered view on Irish history, my grandparents are a part of Irish history, being Irish. You are obviously not paying any attention to my posts, and anyone with a brain can see that. I know all of those simplistic facts about Irish history which you are so fond of recounting endlessly. DID YOU EVEN LOOK at the statistical evidence that I laboriously ammassed for you for my last post? The fact that 60% of the Fitzsimmons families in Dublin are Catholic?

I have said numerous times that I am Canadian, and in my penultimate post I stated explicitly that my father's parents were born and raised in Dublin, IRELAND, and my mother's parents were born and raised in England. My parents were born in Dublin and England respectively, but moved to Canada with their parents when they were still infants. My parents met in Canada, and I was born and raised Canadian.

THE ARGUMENT:
For the last time, I am arguing that it is not so straightforward, and that your article has too many absolute statements in it. Your article draws a clear line between one and two M's, saying that ALL Fitzsimmonses are English, and there was very little conversion. I will follow up on this after I talk about the points of agreement, and pray to every god since the dawn of time that you will pay attention this time.

THE POINTS OF AGREEMENT:
I am agreeing that Fitzsi(m)ons is a more common spelling, in Ireland, taht the name was originally spelt with one M and the extra M is a corruption, and that the first Fitzsimonses were Norman, came over with De Courcy, and landed in County Down where the name is still most common.

I am agreeing that Fitzsi(mm)ons is a more English name in Ireland, and could be said to be an English name, being the most common Fitz-name in England, and more common in England than in Ireland. I am agreeing that many of the Fitzsimmonses found in Ireland are Protestant and of English descent.

I agree with the salient points on Irish history, including the suppression of the Irish faith and the fact that the British were absolute scumbag tyrants in the treatment of the Irish.

These are unarguable and commonly accepted, simple facts of history.

I agree with the core argument of your article.

The POINTS OF DISAGREEMENT, and EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THEM:

THE OVERARCHING ARGUMENT:
I am arguing that not all FitzsiMMonses found in Ireland are of English descent, even those who are Protestant. Why? Read on:

ARGUMENT 1:
I argue that many of the FitzsiMons had to convert to Protestantism because it was beneficial in Northern Ireland to convert to protestantism, given the Penal Laws and the ill treatment of Catholics. Many of these converts no doubt added an extra M in their name, or had it added by the COI (Church of Ireland), and I think this may be a point of agreement.

SUPPORT:
Many protestants have Irish names. My grandmother's mother was from county Antrim, she was a Presbyterian but her last name was Henchie, which is a vanriant of Hennessy, which is an Irish name. Kenneth Branagh, Sam Neill, and Herbert O'Driscoll are examples which I gave earlier of famous Irish Protestants who have Irish names, and who identify strongly with Ireland.

If you look on the census, that is, take the two seconds to look at the PDFs of the original papers (what else would be the use of that link I provided?), you will find many people who have Irish surnames and yet who are members of various Protestant denominations... because at some point they had to convert to avoid the loss of their land, or for other reasons.

ARGUMENT 2:
Many FitzsiMMonses are catholic, and it is not always necessarily a marker of religious denomination OR ethnicity. For some reason many FitzsiMonses had an extra M added to their last name, and it wasn't such a big deal as you make out.

SUPPORT:
Again, look at the census at the FitzsiMMons families, and you will see that a good proportion (a whole 60% of the ones I investigated, living in Dublin at that) are Catholic.

ARGUMENT 3:
Since most of the FitzsiMMonses found in Ireland are from county Down, and show a similarly high number in nearby counties like Louth, Armagh, and Meath as the FitzsiMonses do, I argue that many of them are the same family, but some had an extra M added, ON BOTH SIDE OF THE FENCE.

SUPPORT:
The distribution in the Irish Times website, helpfully provided by none other than Mick Fitzsimons, as well as the Census records, all which show this distribution and attest that most FitzsiMMonses, as well as FitzsiMonses, are from county Down.

NOW, THE OBJECTION:
I think you, Mick, are ignoring the fact that there was more of a "grey line" in this situation. I mean, for heaven's sake, what about all of the FitzsiMMonses who are catholic, and the FitzsiMonses who are protestant? They do not fit in your conveniently broad categorization, which for the sake of clarity I will quote one final time:

"Fitzsimmons, however is predominately an English name, with the only Fitzsimmons’ found in Ireland being protestant, from English descent, or the name has been misspelled. (There will of course be examples of inter religious marriages where Fitzsimmons have changed from protestant to catholic, but these are very few.)"

"...with the only Fitzsimmons’ found in Ireland being protestant, from English descent, or the name has been misspelled." The "only" MM's being protestant? My evidence challenges this, and I intend to go through many more FitzsiMMonses in an effort to show you that your statement, though containing a core of truth, is more of a generalization.

CONCLUSION:
I have put forward my argument coherently and courteously, and if you continue to ignore the factual evidence that I present, if you continue to tell me that I have no argument, that I have a "blinkered" view of history, my next post will contain material which will call for my banning from this site, but of course I will no longer care because I will have come to accept by then that I can't expect the same amount of attention to the argument from you people as I am investing in it.

Simon, I am more confused than ever with your posts. Are you Irish, English, or Canadian? Your nationality could explain your blinkered view on Irish history. Your argument also seems to have changed from ‘British Bashing’, to Catholics being forced to follow the Protestant faith.

In my article I wrote:<< Fitzsimmons, however is predominately an English name, with the only Fitzsimmons’ found in Ireland being protestant, from English descent, or the name has been misspelled. (There will of course be examples of inter religious marriages where Fitzsimmons have changed from protestant to catholic, but these are very few.) >>

Inter religious marriages in the past were frowned upon and were not very common, especially in Northern Ireland. It wasn’t that long ago, Catholics and Protestants living in the same street had never spoken to a person of the other religion.

I also wrote: << There is also the problem of the catholic oppression in Ireland and the setting up of the Church of Ireland. >>
As you will note, I did cover the oppression of the Catholic faith. I could have elaborated further, though I was trying to keep the article as short as possible, whilst trying to cover as much ground as I could. I had previously thought of updating that article and maybe it’s time I did so, as it was written in 2003.

As for Co. Down, the first recorded Fitzsimons in Ireland came from England in 1177 with John de Courcy and may well have been one of the Knights of de Courcy’s small but effective army. So the Fitzsimons name was originally involved in conquering the Irish and spreading the Catholic faith. This is probably why the Fitzsimons name is so numerous in Co. Down. Some probably converted to the Protestant faith with the setting up of the Church of England and it’s possible they added an extra ‘m’ to distinguish themselves from Catholics or it was the age old problem of misspelling.

If for some reason I have misinterpreted what you have written, it may have to do with your style of putting your thoughts into words. Maybe you should lay off the caffeine and try a few pints Guinness instead. It may not help, but it certainly won’t hurt and it may help you to interpret correctly, what I have written.

Irish history is a favourite subject of mine as is history in general and what I have learnt seems to differ from your version. Genealogy is also one of my passions and has been for over 30 years and I have done research for many people around the world, even people in Ireland. You don’t have to live in an area to understand, appreciate and have good knowledge of it.

Bill, thanks for your input and let’s hear from other reader of the forum on their thoughts.
Mick Fitzsimons.

Alright. The preliminary results are in.

I looked at the census records of the first 20 Fitzsimmonses, in Dublin, not Down, skipping the ones who were actually Fitzsimons and those who were in school (that makes it more difficult, because they are buried in lists), and ... 12 out of 20 of the Fitzsimmonses were Catholic, 7 were in the Anglican Chruch of Ireland, and 1 was Presbyterian. There was also a Churhc of Ireland Fitzsimons who was misread as having two M's (everyone does it, apparently).

Well, I have satisfied myself at least that there is some truth in my argument.

One more thing:

"I note that your grandmother was Fitzsimmons and a Protestant, yet your great grandfather was a Fitzsimons. You also state:
<<“we can't hold it against the poor soulds for converting to Protestantism in order to hold on to their land, given the Penal Laws and everything. My great-grandfather's name was originally Fitzsimons.”>>
This would indicate that your grandfather was also a Catholic, though you refrain from actually stating it, as this would shoot your whole argument down in flames."

Quite the contrary, my good man, this shows that you did not take the time to actually understand my argument, at all.

I am done with this. If you guys can't read my posts properly and give the same attention that I give to your posts, then there's no point in frying my brain over this laptop any more. I know what I am saying, and I have supported it with evidence. I wash my hands.

Edited by author 18-12-2009 03:20 AM
By the way, if no-one has the energy to look at the actual distribution of cathlic and protestant Fiztsimmonses in county Down, I will do it myself and come back with the statistics. This is a very telling piece of historical evidence and will shed much light on my argument, and I am ready to go through the humdrum.

And Mr W. Fitzsimons claims that his family converted to protestantism during the Williamite Wars, so that supports my claim that many Irish converetd to protestantism, which you claim is so rare.

Edited by author 18-12-2009 03:15 AM
Mi Mick,

Thanks for taking the time to respond; I appreciate it.

I understand all of that, and as I said in my more calm and not-so-caffeinated posts, I really don't want to berate anybody, and I still feel really ashamed for the thoughtless way I brought nationality into the argument with what I said about Australians.

OK, what I said about my great-grandfather being a Fitzsimons was just a hunch, because he was from county Down, and there are many catholic Fitzsimmons in county Down. I didn't mean to say that, I meant to say "I THINK his name was orininally 'Fitzsimons.'" I was overly caffeinated, and there were many distractions.

The reference to "distant Irish ancestry" was, again, a lamentable mistake and I really didn't mean it as an insult. However, since both of my father's parents were born and raised in Dublin, my grandfather a catholic (Sheeran, my last name) and my grandmother a protestant, this doesn't apply to me. My mother's father and mother were from Liverpool and Sheffield, respectively, so yes I have a lot of British in me. I have been to Dublin to visit my father's family, and they tell me I'm Irish though I think I'm Canadian.

"Would this not suggest to you that it was my opinion? The website you provided does NOT show or prove any intermarriage or misspelling! It also does not give religious background, unless you want to check each individual census record of the 2,576 Fitzsimons, and 533 Fitzsimmons’."

My good sir, you are right about the disclaimer and my lapse in registering it. However, the site I linked does prove intermarriage and misspelling, and the whole point of it was to check the individual census records - not all of them, but just enough to get a good idea. It doesn't take that long, and I do it all the time.

My argument, just for the record, was that many Irish people converted to protestantism up north - which is where County Down is... we all realize that, I hope? The protestants are a mixed bag, especially up north. They are not all Scotch and British, but many of them are descended from Irish people who just went with the flow.

I too am agnostic, as was my father and his father, but I was raised Anglican by my mother. I am not an angry protestant, but I was an angry historian for a little while. If you kind folks would be good enough to understand what I was ACTUALLY objecting against and stop calling me an angry protestant, I would appreciate it.

I grasp the harmlessness and helpfulness of your article, looking back on it, and I appreciate the thought behind it. My objection, as I have expended much energy in repeating, is the tone that the article took, which does berate the English and Protestants on behalf of the Irish, and the over-generalization that ALL Fitzsimmons are protestant and decsended from English imports. Surely in places like Dublin and other places, the Fitzsimmonses are more likely to be English, but, as you see in the Irish Times website (I am already familiar with the site), most Fitzsimmonses are from county Down!

"Simon, let me take this opportunity to enlighten you on a few things. Firstly, that article I wrote was to help those researching the Fitzsimons name on how not to fall into the trap of thinking that if your name is now spelt with ‘mm’, that it has always been this way. Far too many refuse to accept that their name may have had only had one ‘m’, and therefore discount this spelling, whereby ruining and limiting their own research. It is as simple as that!"

That is fair, and I get it. I never denied that the name originially only had one M, and I appreciate the aggravation that must follow Fitzsimonses having an extra M stuck in their name.

"I feel sad for you that you were insulted by my article. Not only have you failed to grasp what I wrote, you also appear unfamiliar with the complexity of the Fitzsimons surname, it’s origins and migration."

Yes, I did feel a little saddenned by the article, but in a general kind of way. I know a lot about Irish history, and as I said, sweeping generalizations need to be followed by qualifications.

I urge you to look at at least some of the census records, yes the things themselves, because they do show religious denomination and place of birth, and you will see that there are very many catholic Fitzsimmonses in county Down, just as there are many people with Irish names who have converted to protestantism. But if no-one has the energy to execute this simple procedure then there's no point in any of this.

Thanks again, and sorry for letting the caffeine and my emotions get the better of me.

This may also be of interest to some.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

The table below shows the number of Fitzsimons households in each county in the Primary Valuation property survey of 1848-64. Click on a county name for a breakdown of the number of households by parish (paying).

FITZSIMONS

Antrim 6
Armagh 12
Belfast city 19
Carlow 1
Cavan 60
Clare 1
Cork 1
Cork city 3
Donegal 2
Down 157
Dublin 25
Dublin city 13
Fermanagh 2
Galway 2
Kildare 6
Kilkenny 1
Laois 3
Limerick 3
Longford 18
Louth 11
Meath 66
Monaghan 13
Offaly 2
Roscommon 6
Tyrone 6
Waterford 1
Westmeath 46
Wexford 39
Wicklow 4

FITZSIMMONS

Antrim 2
Armagh 4
Belfast city 2
Carlow 3
Cavan 2
Cork 1
Derry 1
Down 13
Dublin 2
Fermanagh 1
Kildare 5
Longford 1
Louth 3
Meath 5
Monaghan 1
Tyrone 1
Westmeath 2
Wexford 2
Wicklow 4

Simon, let me take this opportunity to enlighten you on a few things. Firstly, that article I wrote was to help those researching the Fitzsimons name on how not to fall into the trap of thinking that if your name is now spelt with ‘mm’, that it has always been this way. Far too many refuse to accept that their name may have had only had one ‘m’, and therefore discount this spelling, whereby ruining and limiting their own research. It is as simple as that!


You berate others, because you misunderstood what you read. I do not claim to be Irish I am an Australian. All 16 of my great, great grandparents were in this country between 1841 and 1856. Of these 9 were Irish, 3 Scottish, 2 English, 1 Danish/German and 1 Canadian (ethnicity unknown), so I come from a diverse bunch. On the English side, one ancestor was the Mayor of London during the Great Plague of 1665 and his son was the High Sheriff of Kent. Of this family, many were clergy of the Church of England and one possible connection (still to be fully verified), wrote the Ecclesiastical Polity of the Church of England. For your information, I am an agnostic, so I have no reason to berate the Protestant faith, or the English.


I note that your grandmother was Fitzsimmons and a Protestant, yet your great grandfather was a Fitzsimons. You also state:
<<“we can't hold it against the poor soulds for converting to Protestantism in order to hold on to their land, given the Penal Laws and everything. My great-grandfather's name was originally Fitzsimons.”>>
This would indicate that your grandfather was also a Catholic, though you refrain from actually stating it, as this would shoot your whole argument down in flames.


You also refer to the distant Irish ancestry of myself and others! The same could apply to your distant Fitsimons ancestry, being the closest to you was your grandmother, who’s surname had been corrupted to Fitzsimmons, as her father was Fitzsimons.


You wrote:
<<“Mick's article puts forward a generalization which doesn't make allowance for the actual complexity of the situation. It IS insulting, and quite exasperating. I was merely trying to say that you are exaggerating and simplifying the situation”.>>

I feel sad for you that you were insulted by my article. Not only have you failed to grasp what I wrote, you also appear unfamiliar with the complexity of the Fitzsimons surname, it’s origins and migration.


You Wrote:
<<“Really? This sounds like a little more than opinion, and the census link I provided proves that there was more intermarriage and mispelling than his "only" and "very few" indicates.”>>
If you would like to re-read what I wrote, you will note that I said; “After more than 25 years [now over 30 years] of researching the name, this is the conclusion that I have come to.” Would this not suggest to you that it was my opinion? The website you provided does NOT show or prove any intermarriage or misspelling! It also does not give religious background, unless you want to check each individual census record of the 2,576 Fitzsimons, and 533 Fitzsimmons’.

The opinions of some on this forum towards the English could have to do with oppression or other despicable acts caused by the English against their ancestors. One particular branch of my family had 7 members murdered and their homes burnt to the ground after the Battle of Kilcumney in Co. Carlow in 1798. After an insurrection was quashed and the Rebel Troops fled back to Co. Wicklow, these troops loyal to the crown attacked poor innocent families as they had the taste for blood. It is acts such as these that make some people think less of the English back then and you could not blame them.

Quite frankly, you sound like an angry Protestant, who is putting religion before your heritage. I sincerely hope that you re-read what I wrote, digest it and take it for how it was meant, as a guide to those researching their name.

Mick Fitzsimons.

Thanks for your story, Mr Fitzsimons.

Looking in the census records at Fitzsimmons households in County Down, there are an awful lot of them who are catholic (one may even venture to say that there are more catholic than protestant, but I will check more tomorrow).

I know, I am obsessed with trivialities, but that's the fun of being crazy.

Adios! And thanks again for not deleting my messages - I am sorry for being a moron.

Just a short reply from someone from down undah.
We colonists who can claim an Irish background are very proud of our heritage and feel a strong tie to the " motherland" even though we hold very strong allegiance to our country Australia. The fact that we are Australian with Irish background makes me very proud. My father Edward Fitzsimons, born in Belfast 1906 always encouraged me to think protestant even though you could not get him into a church other than for weddings and funerals. He told me that his family had originally been English but having previously been Norman and catholic, however the family or part of it became protestant during the time of William of Orange and Henry V111. He told me that the extra "m" was of great importance as it signified what side of the fence you were from. He did astound me however when I was in my early twenties and was keeping company with a girl of European descent. He asked me her religion and when I said that I thought she was catholic he told me never to bring a catholic into his house. I could not believe that such bigotry could be ingrained in a man 61 years of age. That is not something we Australians no mater what our heritage can abide with. Most of us couldn't give a "rats" where you come from.

Bill Fitzsimons
Downundah and loving it

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Edited by author 17-12-2009 03:27 PM
Howdy, Wayne.

Very good. Thanks for understanding.

The sectarianism I was talking about was in Ireland, and my objection was merely to the generalizations and the perpetuating of sectarian-like language when referring to Ireland that I felt was in Mick's article. The whole thing is a big headache, and doesn't need perpetuation. But MY whole thing, this whole thing, is also quite silly, and no doubt I am being oversensitive.

I just have a kind of compulsion to correct historical generalizations and things like that.

Thanks again, and sorry for bringing an argument to your forum. I will let the dog go to sleep, now.

Goodnight, or afternoon, and say hi to the sun for me! Tell it I miss it, and it's cold over here. :)

Cheers!

Hi Simon,
Mick authored the whole article so, it, the whole thing, is his "opinion" - period. On the Sectarianism you mentioned I have never experienced it here, although I remember my late father (born of a Catholic family but rejected Catholicism to become a card carrying atheist in his late teens) telling me that there was an unspoken Catholic/Protestant "border" in the Public Service. He worked in the Public Service all his life. In other words the heads of large Departments formed enclaves containing only employees of their own faith. It wasn't in-your-face so much out in the community except when Dad married my Mother they had to use only a small side room at the Church rather than the main part, because my mother was a Protestant. You wouldn't get a job in the other camp. On the other hand, in some areas he said you would get a job and advance only if you were a Freemason. All that has long gone now. There is no trace that I am aware of, of any Protestant/Catholic standoff nowadays but in (Mick's) Grandfather's time there would have been. So he probably would roll in his grave. :-) For the record I am an agnostic. I still think you are being over sensitive - but that's only my opinion. :-)

Edited by author 17-12-2009 01:54 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa...

OK, before anybody responds to that last message, just take it with a grain of salt, along with my whole manner of speech. I tried editing it, since some parts of it are, well, maybe a little impolite, but since I was writing from a cafe and now from home it won't let me edit.

I guess the main thing that inspired the impoliteness was the way that Mick's article ran, with its excessive generalizations, as well as some of his comments on this forum, like "their ancestors would be rolling over in their graves to be associated with protestants." Comments like these are really unnecessary, and I find it a little insensitive to the situation which, as I said, is touchy. You know, it's not a man's fault if he's born into a historical conflict and raised by a bloodthirsty Orangeman; and not all protestants are bloodthristy British-worshipping crazies; and in mature, grown-up Ireland protestants and catholics get along perfectly fine (my grandfather was catholic, my grandmother protestant, and I am Canadian). James Joyce, as catholic as catholics get, raised Jesuit, was great friends with Samuel Beckett, who was raised a member of the Church of Ireland. There need be no "rolling over" in graves, for goodness' sake, let them rest in peace. What I meant by it being "ridiculous" is that these issues are really a part of history, and people who are not, strictly speaking, Irish are a little too removed from the situation to be making comments that smack of sectarianism. Say I'm overreacting, but I really do feel that I am right about this, and all I'm saying is he should have treated the subject with a little more professionalism and a little less generalization and less "ain't-it-good-not-to-be-a-protestant," and, "ain't-those-British-just-a-bunch-of-bastards" ...

It's one thing to point out a historical trend in spelling, another to get personal with it like he did.

From Mick's article:

"Fitzsimmons, however is predominately an English name, with the only Fitzsimmons’ found in Ireland being protestant, from English descent, or the name has been misspelled. (There will of course be examples of inter religious marriages where Fitzsimmons have changed from protestant to catholic, but these are very few.)"

Really? This sounds like a little more than opinion, and the census link I provided proves that there was more intermarriage and "misspelling" than his "only" and "very few" indicates. And wouldn't there have been more conversion to protestantism by catholics than vice versa, given the way of the times and the distribution of wealth and privilege?

There are many protestants, for instance, who have Irish names, in Ulster and elsewhere: Herbert O'Driscoll, an author and Anglican priest from county Limerick; Kenneth Branagh, an actor and director from Northern Ireland who moved to England and does a lot of Shakespeare; Sam Neill, an actor from Northern Ireland.

We're talking about many centuries of confusing turmoil, during which being a catholic was not beneficial; and we are talking about county Down, which is predominantly protestant - they are not all British and Scotch, few invasions and settlements have ever been that successful except in North America and that's another story altogether. Many, many Irish people converted to protestantism, if only in name.

There's not such a clear line in this situation, is really what I am saying, and the individual trumps the universal when it comes to most historical situations; or, more precisely, the universal statements and generalizations usually conceal and deceive more than they explain, which is why they should be followed by qualifications.

Please, fellows, no hard feelings. I am quite ashamed to have been argumentative - it was the caffeine. I don't want to inspire the ire of you excellent people "dayown undah," nor did I wish to impune your Irishness in any way. After all, we're all related. ;) One big extended Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons family - but some of those Fitzsimmonses are not to be trusted. ;) ("Where did that extra M come from, me man? Better not 'ave been England.") But 'tis a fine diaspora, to be sure.

Hello Wayne.

I am sorry to have aroused contrariness with the language of my earlier post. Although it was not my primary intention to sound hostile, after reading my post I realize that it was rather rude.

I was trying to volunteer a very useful link which, frankly, provides much more information about this subject than anything I have been able to find via this website, or Mick's article.

Mick's article is NOT posited as opinion, but attempts to put itself forward as fact. It is true that Fitzsimmons is a more common name in England than in Ireland, and in Ireland the name is usually spelt Fitzsimons. This is commonly accepted fact. However, considering that close to 90% of the population of county Down is Protestant, it is more likely than not that the Fitzsimmonses found there were originally Fitzsimons, and are not British imports. If you look at that link I provided, you will see that there are MANY catholic Fitzsimmonses in Down, Cavan, and many other places. just as there are many protestant Fitzsimons.

I was not trying to "slur" anybody. However, you all must understand that it IS ridiculous to see everyone make such a big deal out of this Protestant-Catholic thing which, really, the Irish themselves have gotten over - at least in the Republic. If you were not born in Ireland, you are not Irish. This is what I was trying to say about "distant Irish ancestry." I know only too well the habit of Irish-Americans and others to make a big deal about their Irishness, and quite frankly that is what you fellows are doing when you put forward this one-or-two-m claptrap.

Mick's article puts forward a generalization which doesn't make allowance for the actual complexity of the situation. It IS insulting, and quite exasperating. I was merely trying to say that you are exaggerating and simplifying the situation.

If you engage in the Protestant-Catholic language, you need to be aware of the touchiness of the subject, and be prepared for the retaliation which this engagement is asking for.

I would love to write an article in response to Mick's. It will be very polite and filled with factual evidence.

Again, I didn't want to slur anybody, but please understand that you people were being very clumsy with a subject that deserves more scholarly attention, disregarding the complexity AND the touchiness of the subject.

My grandmother was a Fitzsimmons, born in Ireland, and yes, she was Protestant, and her father was from county Down. As I said above, since 90% of places like Newtownards and Belfast are protestant, we can't hold it against the poor soulds for converting to Protestantism in order to hold on to their land, given the Penal Laws and everything. My great-grandfather's name was originally Fitzsimons. My grandmother's mother was a Henchie, which is a variant of Hennessy, an Irish name. She was Presbyterian, which is more Scots-Irish.

Please acknowledge the complexity of the situation, and the emotional and personal nature of what you fellows are so casually and ininformedly bantering about.

I think you should "get over it" Simon.
Mick was venturing an opinion, yes just that, an opinion, based on his own experience in his researches.
Incidentally, why the attempted childish slur on "only distant Irish ancestry"?
It's just as valid as yours and much of anyone's ancestry is distant.
Get real Simon.

♥♪♫ Fitzy ♥♪♫
Website: http://Wayne.FitzSimons.info

Listen, this silliness about Fitzsimmons being a more English spelling in Ireland, and Fitzsimons being more Irish doubtless has some truth in it, but I think you guys are exaggerating.

Just check out this website, Census of Ireland 1911. Most Fitzsimmonses come from county Down, and there are PLENTY of Catholic Fitzsimmonses in county Down and elsewhere. True, FitzsiMons is a more common spelling, but that is about the end of it.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

It is so ridiculous to see this Catholic-Protestant garbarge being peddled by Asutralians and Americans with onlt distant Irish ancestry. (This is mainly directed at "Mick" FitzsiMons.) Get over it, please.

Edited by author 16-09-2009 11:44 PM
As the link claims that only fitzroy have a connection to William the conqueror, Are there any records that can connect fitzsimons origin in this particular era? I assume simon de montford or some other cousin of william the conqueror had offspring who were named fitz-- and that this did not continue down the line. for example william had a son and his son was called simon fitzwilliam (son of william) who had a son called william fitzsimons (son of simon) what we can ascertain is that they were involved in the Norman invasion in 1066. Initially they were pagan until Rollo converted all of them to christianity like king canute
Mingling in with the french they became Catholic, until henry the 8th changed the religion for his divorce so some stayed catholic and some became protestant. old Catholic cemetery in Hannahstown there lays the old priest Father jack Fitzsimons. Its a cert that politics would come into any surname search in norn ireland!

Paul,
That's the first I've heard of "Fitz" meaning 'Son of a King' for as far as I've seen it merely means "Son of". However one surname
"Fitzroy" was a surname bestowed upon (illegitimate?) offspring of Royalty. See this link http://bit.ly/IRs9g .
:-)
&#E2;c&#A5;&#E2;c&#AA;&#E2;c&#AB; Fitzy &#E2;c&#A5;&#E2;c&#AA;&#E2;c&#AB; http://Wayne.FitzSimons.info




On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 1:50 PM, QT - irishpaul
<qtopic-21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

yes - Fitzsimmons is more Protestant spelling. Actually the name Protestant came from England, as they the Cromwell crew took it over and Fitzsimmons is an english name. There are Fitzsimons in Cavan, my parent are from then 1st gen.

Of course in Irish classes we get told Fitzsimons in from the viking days, son of a king, so king Simons, remember Ireland was used a lot in Viking days when they could not set up a base in England.

So If you records say you were a Fitzsimons back in ye old day, think of the fact in those days, it was down to the local preist to decide who to spell it and most people were just farmers, so if a priest spelt it their way - there was no one around to correct it. As a Irish Catholic and a Fitzsimons, if i meet an US Fitzsimmons - no worries - blame the bad spelling back in great great days.


Paul (now in Toronto)

My family came from Co. Cavan, and emigrated to America in 1847, ending-up in Iowa in 1850 where they farmed in Fayette County. The name in an 1868 map of the township where they lived is spelled Fitzsimons, but is Fitzsimmons in an 1879 map, and has been that way since, and the family was and is a Catholic family.

I've been to an old Catholic cemetery in Hannahstown, County Antrim where there are Fitzsimmons stones. The IRA section in Milltown Cemetery (Catholic) in Belfast has a Fitzsimmons stone.

I visited an old Fitzsimons man in Mullagh, Co. Cavan, and he told me with much winking, that there are Fitzsimons and Fitzsimmons. I took it that he meant Fitzsimons is the Catholic spelling and Fitzsimmons the Protestant spelling. Fitzsimons seems nearly universal in the telephone directory for the Republic of Ireland, but when the name travels to America, it is almost impossible to keep it spelled Fitzsimons.

Edited by author 22-08-2009 12:11 PM
Hi Haskell
You have come to the same conclusion as I have. i.e. Give up on the spelling. :-)
My Bank (when I opened another account despite already banking with them for 20 years and despite the application being hadwritten with one "m" opened the new account as "Fitzsimmons". I asked them to change it and they said I had to close the account and apply for another!!! Bearing in mind opening an account here is no small undertaking, with having to have many proofs of my ID etc - I said I'd change Banks before I'd do that. My pet dislike is when you pronounce your surname and spell it for them, and then they 'correct' you saying "Oh! Fitzsimmons! Sigh . . .

By the way I had a proper Forum here (designed to replace this QT setup) by nobody used it at all and it ended up just getting spam (porn) postings so I had to remove it.
Cheers
Wayne FitzSimons
Daylesford - Australia

 Great to find this forum. I am a resident of Raleigh, North Carolina. The "FitzSimons" folk came from Georgia in the last century. It appears that we have all suffered from well-meaning revisionist "spelling police" .... lots of confusion out there on the one 'm' / two 'm' dichotomy. As a "one-m-er". I can tell you that almost none of my mail is addressed to me properly! My bank of some 27 years STILL gets it wrong, despite a fruitless attempt on my part to set the matter straight some years back... they swore they would / could correct the matter, yet never were able to! I finally gave up! (It dosen't seem to matter much how I write my name on my checks.... hmmmmmm....)

Hi to all the fitzys out there,i managed to trace my grandparents to Rathangan in Kildare but after that i was told the records went astray
during the civil war in in ireland.
My grandfather was James Fitzsimons (farmer) and he married Elizabeth Shorthen in rathangan around 1896 or 7,my father passed away in 1951 at 54 years when i was very young so i did not get round to finding out much about his family,do i have relatives out there?? ,
P.P.Fitzsimons

Edited by author 13-01-2009 06:58 AM
Hello all, I will start by saying that this is a really cool site, very nice indeed.

My father's parents were born in Dublin, and moved to England and shortly thereafter on to Quebec. My mother's parents were born in Sheffield, England.

My father's father (obviously) was Sheeran, Anglicized version of O'Sirin, variations on the spelling of which are numerous: Sherren, Sheerin, etc.

Anyways, my father's mother was a FitzsiMMons, I believe, at least it was pronounced fitz-him-ons. Her first name was Shelagh, which is of course very Irish.

After reading Mick's article I now have some questions, and was wondering would you all be able to clear this up for me:

I am now wondering whether my grandmother was of an Anglo-Irish family settled in Dublin, hence the English spelling of the name. She was also a Presbyterian, which is of course Protestant, but of a Scottish variety. How confusing.

Or was her family one of those which misspelt the name, or had it re-spelt for them at some point. The evidence which suggests that she is not Anglo-Irish is her first name, Shelagh, which is very Gaelic, but of course this could be an example of Anglo-Irish embracing their country, as many did.

I am not as anxious to distance myself from the English as some of you seem to be, my mother being mainly of English extraction; this is merely a historical curiosity.

If you would be so kind as to point me in a direction where I may be able to find an answer to this question, I would be much obliged. Mark's hypothesis that any Fitzsimmonses in Ireland are most likely to be English-Protestant raises some other questions, and requires elaboration. Looking at the Irish Times website, which has a lot on Irish names, I saw that there was 55 occurrences of Fitzsimmons (late 18th - early 19th century), most of them from Down I believe, which was where the FitzSiMons were said to have abounded. Surely this indicates that the spelling Fitzsimmons must have been more common than Mick's article implies - or maybe English Fitzsimmonses flocked to Down so that they could be with Irishpeople of the same name? Right.

Anyways, I would love to hear more about this. Thanks so much for your patience, and one M or two, happy new year!

(Iam posting this on your new forum)

Wayne - are you in Australia? _I have now moved to Sydney.. I think I know your cousin Alejandra (think u did some of her web design.

My Fitzsimons clan is 1st generation from co Westmead - dad is from them. I was in Florida for a few years and now then Ireland again, and now with this crazy worldwide economy - Australia had the work.

Paul

--------------------------------------------------
From: "QT - Wayne FitzSimons" <qtopic-21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:51 PM
To: "QT topic subscribers" <qtopic-subs@quicktopic.com>
Subject: FitzSimons Family Name

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Charles, both spellings and several others are from the same roots (see http://fitzsimons.info ) and an article from Mick Fitzsimons (small "s" amd one "m") who has an interesting article here
http://fitzsimons.info/one-m-or-two.html which contends that the double-m spelling is predominantly from the English side.

Only today my son Aaron FitzSimons found his name misspelled in today's paper by a journalanist who despite Aaron spelling it as above and stressing the upper case "S" one the one "m", she still couldn't help herself and spelled it by the most prevalent spelling as "Fitzsimmons".

I have had a lifetime of this indeed not only in spelling it, but by pronouncing FitzSimons (like Fitz-Sigh-mons) only to be immediately corrected by them "OK Mr Fitzsimmons". It's a lost battle Charles. :-)

I would like to point out that even though I am only 18 I want to get the point across that it's one "m" not two. And now I am spelling it with a capital "s" so everyone knows. I'm the only one it seems to care about my roots.

I hope you dont mind I started the topic as there was absolutely nothing written at all about Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons . Wikipedia edited it i tried to get your website and main points across, it is important to get to the real truth across in historical context i think you did a fantastic job. Now there is a lot more information available and cross referenced from different sources hopefully it can all be put together and added too without religious intolerance muddying the waters.


On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 7:01 AM, QT - Mick Fitzsimons <
qtopic-21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Thanks Harry, I didn't know they had the name listed. Funny enough, they have quoted a paragraph that I wrote:

"Those with the surname that originated from the Norfolk, Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire area of Britain were thought to be Scandinavian and of the genere Danus, as the area was settled by Danish Vikings and predate the Norman invasion in 1066 AD."

They name the website it was from, but forgot to mention the author. This quote is from the piece I thought you may be interested in reading. A shame really, because I have upset a few people over the years who refuse to believe that their Irish Fitzsimmons ancestors, were in fact Fitzsimons, even when they have found this through their own research. Some think that all the historical data is wrong and all references to the name should have 'mm' in it. One bloke in the USA, even had his own tartan made and spelt Fitzsimmons. His Irish Catholic ancestors would turn in their graves at this injustice to their surname being associated with Protestants.

In my research of the name all over the world, I use the spelling that was on original documents. It could be one version for birth, another for marriage and could be a combination of several different spellings for the birth of their kids. That way you can see how various branches of one family now have different spelling for their name.

Regards,

Mick Fitzsimons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitzsimons

Mick There is a new wikipedia page collating information on Fitzsimons Family this can be added to if anyone has historical or other info was quite interesting reading notable figures, in particular Thomas Fitzsimons one of Founding Fathers of the United States of America.
http://www.adherents.com/people/pf/Thomas_Fitzsimons.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
seems to be right area for danish ...
apparently the co down fitzsimons are from normandy and the meath and pembrokeshire are danish hmm mayne

To Henry Fitzsimons, Emma Fitzsimons and Harry, regarding the origins of the Fitzsimons name. It is quite a complex answer as the name predated it’s emergence in Ireland and came from England. Just where the various branches came from is also complex. Some at least from Norfolk and Lincolnshire are thought to have come from the Danish Vikings that settled there, other branches from the Normans and some from the Hebrew Shimeon, so it is impossible to distinguish between the various origins. There are also several Coat of Arms for the surname Fitzsimons and only one that I have come across for Fitzsimmons.

You may like to see, http://www.fitzsimons.info/one-m-or-two.html which I submitted in August 2003, though written long before that date. I must update this one day.

Wayne FitzSimons who started this forum has an excellent website for the surname at http://www.fitzsimons.info/index.html.

There you will find a link to the new forum at http://www.fitzsimons.info/fitzforum/index.php

Please join this new forum, where you can post new topics. Take a little time to explore it, so you can get the best value from what it has to offer. It also includes post from this QT Forum, so that nothing has been lost. See Wayne’s post No’s 158 and 164, for more information. We can turn this new forum into a really useful tool for our common research, though to do so will require more participation from new members.

Henry raises an interesting point about DNA and I would be very interested to hear of any results that people have from this test.

Regards to all,

Mick Fitzsimons
Victoria
Australia.

Yes I came up with some related items too, mostly researching scandivian norwegian viking countries is helpful I did come across a tribal leader who united all of the Scandinavian countries. It all seems to fit in well for example we have magnus magnusson, which means son of magnus and fitz is a prenom for son of there is sigurdson simonson etc etc to be honest i did loads of research but i forget half of it. There are the sagas which tell of all the different wars and leaders which can help. I dont know how to follow the trail beyond this time. Many vikings had o+ blood
There is some interesting dna links for example y chromosones,
(Dear Mr Fitzsimons



Thank you for your enquiry. I would advise that our services are
designed to provide information on very ancient ancestry dating back
many tens of thousands of years rather than for more recent family
history.



Our analyses only follow direct lines of either maternal or paternal
ancestry under the MatriLine (maternal) and Y Clan (paternal). These
cost £180.00 each but if you order both at the same time as a 'combo'
then there is a slight reduction in price as only one DNA sample is
needed.



Full details of these analyses, the information each will provide and
the prices can be found at our website www.oxfordancestors.com.



henrifitz@googlemail.com

Hi Henry...i must have deleted my original email by accident! I suppose for personal reasons I have trying to research the origins of the surname Fitzsimons. So far, I have gathered that its an Anglo Norman/Irish name...the normans being descended from Viking Pirates that moved to the area of France we now know as Normandy. Simon/Sigmundr - now this is where my interest kicks in - because Sigmundr was a name of the God Odin - a name, because he has many names apparently, and this is one of them.

I know nothing more. I expected the internet to be really helpful...but its not being kind to me at the moment in relation to learning more about the surname. If you get any info at all, let me know! :D

can i edit post as insufficient replies to discuss

whats ur email?

On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:43 PM, QT - Emma Fitzsimons <
qtopic-21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

has anyone ever discovered the origin of the name fitzSimons,
I have heard simon/sigmund means wolf from norwegian times, norman means northman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestone

Odin the norse god of methology lost 1 eye in his search for knowledge i'll not go that far..lol another Valhalla saga to follow.

Maybe someone has research that could go further beyond normandy fitzsimonses? in search of the holy grail :) l

A famous Simon was one of the 12 apostles, simon known as peter but then that would just be too amazing son of simon.

Edited by author 30-06-2008 09:44 AM
The Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons site:-

Recently we have been getting spam entries on the "QuickTopic" board. Such entries are a nuisance and can in many cases they may have been automated to post on forums or boards where there is no protection from it.

I have set up the new forum on the site to replace the "QuickTopic" board and all of the existing messages have been repeated on the new forum. However since the authors are not (yet) members on the new forum when it was set up, I had to enter the authors names on them and they are all in the one thread as an archive. For new messages feel free to make a new thread to suit.

The new forum provides that you join it (your email address is kept private) and log in to post messages. This stops the automated spam referred to. You will be able to also upload pictures. You can "subscribe" to topics (threads) and it will send you a message to say there's a response on the forum.

So far very few have signed up. Don't know why.
Anyway the new all-singing-all-dancing forum is now available on the www.fitzsimons.info site. The direct link to it is
http://fitzsimons.info/fitzforum/ so please go sign up and continue your messaging there. You can also search entries. Note that you can set up your own thread like say "FitzSimons Charles - Dublin 1820" so that responses will be under your thread rather than scattered throughout the one thread (as it is under the QT system).

In answer to Harry's question about tracking the IP address of the spammers we've had; it is unfortunately a waste of time as they use different IP addresses each time and they can do it from an innocent person's PC. The forum is the best method.

I will soon remove this QuickTopic discussion board (because of the spam).

Cheers
Wayne FitzSimons
Daylesford - Australia

Edited by author 30-06-2008 08:22 AM
what language is that?
can you track ips?

whats that chinese site all about !!!!

NEWSFLASH! New FitzSimons Fitzsimmons Forum!
PREFER YOU POST FROM NOW ON ON THE NEW FORUM!!
(i.e. rather than on the QT Board). See below.

New all-singing-all-dancing forum is now available on the www.fitzsimons.info site. The direct link to it is
http://fitzsimons.info/fitzforum/

I've only set it up today and will add more forum sections as we go (looking for your ideas). You only need to register once with a valid email address (which is safe from prying eyes and I will never give give them to anyone) and you can log in and post any time. you can Private Message each other and still keep your email address secret if you want.

You will be able to upload/post pictures with your postings rather than merely link to pictures hosted elsewhere. The WYSIWYG editor allows you to add colour and emphasis to your posts. You can have a signature on your profile which is automatically added for you (if you want it).

Lots more! Now I only set it up today so let me know of any teething problems. Give me your ideas for other sections along with any feedback.
Email me at Wayne.FitzSimons@gmail.com for prompt attention

All the messages below this have been transferred to the new forum but because the original person posting isn't (yet) a member of the new forum I placed them in an Archive thread (which can be searched).
Regards
Wayns

Edited by author 28-05-2008 10:37 AM
As it stands now, I can upgrade this topic so that you can post pictures.
However I am thinking about installing proper forum software so that you can do all of that and have moderators like Mick Fitzsimons on board. If I do that, I would attempt to post all of the pre-existing messages you have here (although the links to ownership would be broken). People wishing to post would need to initially sign up with a username and password and a working email address (which can be hidden from public view) to do this.

However I digress.

In the interim, you can link to pictures hosted elsewhere such as my example below. The first example is a straight out link which will probably open in the same "window" taking you away from this page (use your "back" button on your browser to return)).

http://wayne.fitzsimons.info/photos/WayneElaine.jpg

OR You could use the resource at http://www.tinyurl.com which will not only shorten a very long link, you can choose the "open in new window" option that will not take you away from the topic - the image would open in a new window.

e.g.
http://tinyurl.com/4jhcaq

Picture if of my wife and I almost 20 years ago.
Elaine & Wayne 1989

Henry, I'm not the moderator of this site, Wayne FitzSimons is.

Wayne, are you out there? Can we post pics on this site?

Edited by author 27-05-2008 11:13 PM
Yesterday I travelled to Co Down and took some pictures of area i hope to upload to internet site, as I am searching my fathers side of family tree my mothers side is nearly complete.
I would be interested in links to fitzsimons family websites. If anyone got pictures of their families now and does not mind i would love to see them? I will be posting my own soon and would be glad if anyone was interested.

Thanks
Henry Fitzsimons

ps is it possible to upload pictures here mick?

G’day Betty,

I’m sorry but I can’t help you. The Coffee name that I’m researching is on my mother’s side. A convict sentenced to 7 years transportation to Van Deiman’s Land (Tasmania). No convicts in the Fitzy side.

As for Coffee, maybe James FitzSimons or Fanny (Frances) Cubbage/Cuppage had a mother with that surname. I have come across that before, a surname skipping a generation.

Good luck with your research.

Regards,

Mick.

Attention: Mick Fitziimons. I think I have this correct--"Coffee" is a name you are researching(?) Please be patient if I repear info already submitted. My grandfather, James FitzSimons, was born in Belfast July 27, 1830 - bapt. at St. Patrick's RC Church on Donegal St. His parents were James FitzSimons and Fanny (Frances) Cubbage/Cuppage. My gf was in the US in 1852 as he enlisted in the US Army that year. The senior James, a Chandler, moved to Donaghmore in Ct. Tyrone abt. 1840 where he was employed at Brown's Soap Works until his death in 1867 at age 66. My gf married Mathilda Hebestreit in Baton Rouge, LA in 1867 (He was 37 and she was 17.) They named their first child, a daughter, Fanny Coffee FitzSimons so I've wondered if Coffee is a family name? James was in the army for over 20 years. They moved from Pittsburg to New Orleans in 1883 as that is where Mathilda's family lived. James died there in 1891. My father was two years old. Please note my correct e-mail: barnaud@satx.rr.com. Thanks for your attention.
Best regards, Betty Arnaud

Edited by author 28-05-2008 05:38 AM
In reply to Margaret Fitzsimons, post No. 150 19-05-2008 10:47 PM EST (AU)

If you are referring to me, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. If you are referring to the article I wrote on Wayne FitzSimons’ website, http://www.fitzsimons.info/one-m-or-two.html, you should have taken the time to see when that article was contributed to that website. The date was August 2003. Your only post on this forum (for some unknown reason you say it is your second reminder), was Post No. 46 on 21-03-2006, where you made the dubious claim of, “I am glad that someone has followed up my research into the religious cannotions of the spelling of the name.” This was obviously in response to my post (Post No. 41), that was several posts before yours, regarding the Fitzsimons name.

As can be plainly seen, my writing about the Fitzsimons name on http://www.fitzsimons.info/one-m-or-two.html, was posted almost five (5) years before the jumbled piece you posted on this forum. This date difference would have been picked up, by even the most novice of researchers. Before your posting, I had never heard of you, seen any of your research and certainly was not quoting anything that you had said, where ever you have this data posted or published, if at all.

I have been researching the Fitzsimons name for 30 years and what I wrote in “one-m-or-two”, is all my own research and observations, over the past 30 years. If you read it again, you will see that it bears no resemblance to the piece you penned almost 5 years later. For you to think otherwise is completely delusional.

As for the Catholic/Protestant connotation of the name, I do not claim to be the first to have noticed this and no doubt, will not be the last, as you yourself have done long after me and countless others. Having had some of my research posted on the internet by others, I know only too well how annoying and disappointing this can be. I would also not embarrass myself by presenting the work of someone else as my own. I can make enough mistakes on my own without claiming the shortcomings and poor research of others as that of mine.

I had to reply to what I felt was an unwarranted attack on my honesty and integrity and if your message was not directed at me, I apologise. If I was the intended target of your vitriol, I look forward to an apology and retraction of your statement.

To date, this has been a wonderful forum, where friendly people have discussed the Fitzsimons name and helped one another where they could. Let us hope it remains that way.

Regards,

Mick Fitzsimons.

Mick, I do not recall giving you permission to quote and absorb my research on the Roman Catholica and Protestant versions of Fitzsimons. Besides it is not yet accurately researched. Will you copy this too. You should ALWAYS acknowledge something or ASK before you borrow from another person's quotes. Thank you. Margaret Fitzsimons. May 2008. I think that this is my 2nd reminder!

To Emily Fitzsimons living in France. If you'd like to contact me <mickfitzsimons@hotmail.com>, I will see if I can find anything on you Aussie Fitzy family. I have compiled charts on many Fitzsimons families who came to Australia and may already have yours listed.

To Henry Fitzsimons, thanks for your imput. You may be interested in a piece I wrote about the name that is on Wayne FitzSimons' website. http://www.fitzsimons.info/one-m-or-two.html

I hope everyone had a great St. Patrick's Day.

Mick Fitzsimons

Thank you very much for the information. In the area that I grew up (Barrie Ontario) we were the only Fitzsimons. There was a family of fitzsimmons. The only Fitzsimons I ever ran into or heard about were my cousins. I thought it was a fairly unusual name. I didn't know hhow wrong I was until I started trying to find out where in Ireland my Great Grandfather was born. We are a huge family .

Linda
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Edited by author 27-03-2008 10:11 AM
Whilst scanning the internet for heraldry, i have seen your site. So many Fitzsimons's cool, anyhow according to records Fitzsimons was the most numerous name in the county of Down. My grandfather was from there. In particular an area called lecale and bishopscourt. There were 2 churches and a roundtower/castle in the area.

Interestingly it seems the initial journey to Ireland was from England via Normandy as they were Norman Knights who arrived around 1177 with the famous John de Courcy linked to Carrickfergus Castle.
They were defenders of Strangford lough and owners of Kilclief Castle.

I found a listing for Christian fitzsimons in the Church of Ireland.1227
I found many many fitzsimons's in the second church pre famine St Malachys Roman Catholic the Priest was Thomas Fitzsimons. There were many young deaths due to famine/plague. The famine I suppose is the reason for many immigrations.

There are some other listings at Balmoral public records (proni)in Belfast
eg Nicholas Fitzsimons Landowner and yeomanry. However a multitude were at St Malachys, Bishopcourt County Down.

Hope this helps anyone needing places to search for ancestors from Ireland.
Maybe I can get some listings of names from St Malachys.
If anyone needs directions/help no worries I live in Belfast.

my email is henrifitz@googlemail.com

The 1881 Census indicates that Isabella was alive then and living with a younger Isaac, possibly her son. There were also daughters, but you have likely seen this.

Try funeral home records. I can't speak for Toronto, but here in Hamilton the library has funeral home books dating back to about 1850 and I have found some great information in those. You should check to see if a similar situation exists in Toronto.

Paddy
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Thank you very much for the information. I do think that he was born out of wedlock. I have always assumed that was the reason that he was the black sheep. Isabella was supposed to have been the family governess.

Thanks

Linda
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Hi Linda,

If James Briggs Fitzsimon is the James B.Fitzsimon married to a Susana and living at 60 Chestnut Street in Toronto on the 1911 census, that census indicates that he was born in Ireland on June 18, 1845, not 1829. Presumably James married Susanne Hill in Ontario and if it was after 1869 then there is a good chance that you can find out Isabella's surname (I wouldn't be surprised if it were Briggs) on the marriage record of James and possibly a place name in Ireland.

With the birth of James occurring before civil registration of births in Ireland, you will have to know where he came from in Ireland to make any headway. Marriages began being recorded in 1945 for protestants in Ireland. There is a chance that Isaac may have married after that date, if James was born out of wedlock, which did happen. Sorry to say that without a location, you are not likely to make much headway.

Have you exhausted Canadian records, newspaper obituaries, cemetery and funeral home records, all family members? If James had siblings, try to locate family of those people. I have found that distant cousins often hold a piece of the puzzle.

My FitzSimons family also settled in Toronto when they immigrated and I often wondered if someone in the family had gone before. I have not heard of an Isaac though.

Best of luck with you search.

Paddy





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Edited by author 25-03-2008 03:58 AM
Hi
I was born Fitzsimons, but have been having a great deal of difficulty finding out who my Fitzsimons family were before my great great grandfather. My grandfather was Harvey Fitzsimons ( Born 1873) in Toronto Ontario Canada. His father was James Biggs Fitzsimons (born 1829)in Ireland, and married to Susanne Hill. He was Church of England. He came to Canada with his parents Isaac Fitzsimons ( b.abt. 1806) and his mother Isabella ? . I have been told that Isaac was the blacksheep of the family and sent to Canada with his wife and son James, and paid to stay there. A remittance man. I have'nt been able to find out anything about his family. I don't even know if the story about being the blacksheep is true. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to proceed from this point?

Hi, I am looking for any inforamtion on a William Henry Fitzsimons born late 1800's in London, he married Annie Traynor (Ireland) and they had 4+ children in and around Manchester. My grandad is Kevin C Fitzsimons he had 2 brothers and a sister, Maureen ( as far as I can gather ) Thanks in advance

Angie,

I realize there is some urgency in finding your sister, given your mother's advanced years. Most newspapers have some sort of human interest column You might check out Manchester papers online, or you may be able to buy a copy from a newspaper agent locally, and get the name of the columnist. Write him/her and see if the paper would run a story that you are trying to find your sister. I'm in Canada in a fair sized city and our local paper has such a column which has often had stories about people from outside the country trying to find someone that came here. It's worth a shot.
I hope you find her. Do let us know if you do.

Paddy

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paddy chitty thankyou for your advice I will let you know if I find her. THANKS AGAIN angie

Angela,

Have you tried searching for your sister's marriage in the English Marriage indexes?
Marriages, I understand, are available up to 1984. Surely Marie FitzSimons' marriage would have occurred before then, if she was born in 1938. You may be able to find a clue as to her surname from the indexes. Here is the link: http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

From a search on one name, your sister's, you will have several possible spouses surnames to choose from. But several is better than none. It would be a good starting point.

Good luck.

Paddy
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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Im looking for my sister marie fitzsimons her date of birt15 15h is 27-5-38 born in dublin she left home age 16 and was never seen again we were told she moved to manchester england married and had children I myself was born after she left our mum is still alive she is 90 years old if anyone knows of my sister please contact on this number as soon as poss Iwould be so gratefull thanks angie 07954278690

Forgot to say our Great Grandfather was James Fitzsimons and his occupation was a Ship Steward.

Hello

Just in the process of tracing our family tree. Anyone out there who can trace relations to ours, welcome to email us. Our Great grandfather is as far as we have gone back so far as we have only just started. Born Dublin city circa 1879, married Florence Carroll. Had 3 boys, Charles circa 1907, Albert circa 1908, James circa 1910/11. James died at sea between 1912 & 1916, Florence died within 6 months of James. The 3 young boys were brought up by Florence's sister Martha Carroll.

Looking forward to hearing from anyone who thinks they might be related.

Tracie & Lisa Fitz

Just noticed I murdered your first, this is what happens when you get AULD Sorry,
  George

QT - emily fitzsimons <qtopic-21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

Hello Elily,
   
  There is a fella Aussie by the name of Mick Fitzsimons who address is mickfitzsimons@hotmail.com who helped find a branch of my Father's family in Victoria.
  I hope we are related but I don't think so.
  Let me give some family history
  My Father George FitzSimons was born in Liverpool in 1901 had an older brother named John, & an older sister named Annie. According to my Dad's birth certificate his Mother's maiden name was Annie Connell, & according to Mick she was born in England but my Father thought she was from Cork. (Mick is an exceptional person & could get his PHD on the Fitzies) My Father was orphaned at the age of 3 was in an orphanage till he was 14 & joined the British army as a bandboy. Lost contact with his family in England. Was stationed in Belfast, met & married my mother. He always claimed to be Irish. I was born in Belfast but have live in Chicago for a long time. Have a house 20 miles south of Belfast & go home twice a year.
  How did you end up with the Froggies.
  God Bless,
  Your distant Relative,
   
   George
   
   
  

QT - emily fitzsimons <qtopic-21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

hi there!
my name's emily fitzsimons, I live in france, although i'm australian and my family lives in australia. My grandfather's name is John Fitzsimons. I'd like to know more about my ancestors, and where I come from . i think they immigrated from Dublin to australia , but Im not sure.
If anyone could help , it would be great !
cheers
emily

Hello Siobhan,
   
  Great to hear from another Fitz,
  My name is George FitzSimons born in Belfast, have been in Wicklow many times, but never lived there. We may be related, but it maybe far back.
  My Dad & his family were all born in Liverpool going back to at least 1871 At one time I worked in Dublin & a fellow worker was related to Maureen O' Hara but no matter how hard as I tried, we could not make any connection. We have always insisted SIMONS not the double M.
  Was at my Father's annivesary Mass this morning & the Priest as usual give us the doubly M. My Dad name was the same as mine, born 1901.
  Mother's name was Margaret Jane, born in 1903 & my sister's name is Margaret Mary. I go home to Ireland twice a year & each time thing become more & more expensive. My neice just bought a 3 bedroom duplex in Dublin for $1.25 million.
  God Bless,
   
  George
   
   
   
   
  

QT - siobhan gallagher <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

Just found this page today. Searching Fitzsimons (pron like Simon in our family) all from Co. Wicklow, Ireland. As per my mother, we are linked to the Fitzsimons of Maureen O'Hara fame but not sure where.

My mother’s mother was Mary Margaret Fitzsimons (b. Sept 1896; d. Nov. 1953) who married Francis Healy (b.May 1888; d. Nov 1937), also of Wicklow, in 1931. (And Frank Healy’s sister, Mary, married Mary Margaret Fitzsimons’s first cousin, Jim. It’s the Jim Fitzsimons/Mary Healy branch that lives predominantly in Manor Kilbride vicinity, Wicklow, that I'm in contact with--my mother's cousins.)

Mary Margaret Fitzsimons’ father was called Eugene (Owen/Eoghain?) Fitzsimons and he married an Annie Murphy. They had 8 children that I’m aware of: Patrick; Martha; Anna Marie (became Dominican nun, Sr. Mary Laurence); John; Edward (Ned); Christopher (Christy; unmarried); Brigid (died at age 15); and, as previously noted, Mary Margaret.

Eugene/Owen Fitzsimons also had a brother Edward who married an O’Neill [although I don’t know O’Neill’s first name, I’m told by one of her grandchildren she had sisters Kate and Ann, and brothers Pat, Mike & John], and I believe their father was either John or Robert Fitzsimons, who were brothers and lived on same plot of land in Ballylow, Co. Wicklow as per the Primary Valuation of Ireland in 1853.

Most of this is anecdotal, told to me by my mother and her cousins. Does this ring any chimes with anyone? If so, I can be reached at smg.writer@yahoo.com. Thanks!

To George J. Fitzsimons, after seeing a few postings of yours, I decided to have another go at tracking down your Scantlebury relatives in Oz. It's taken a while, but made contact with one today. She gave me the phone number of her older cousin who she thinks has more information and maybe even old photos. And of all places she is living, is Fitzsimons Lane in Templestowe Vic. that was named after my family.

Will e-mail you direct when I get things a bit more sorted out.

Regards,

Mick

George,

Your father probably had Irish ancestry. It is likely just a generation farther back than you thought. I think an Irish heritage lives deep in one's soul and is never forgotten, so send for those certificates and keep looking, you will find the connection, I'm sure.

Paddy.


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Thanks Paddy for the info.
   
  My Father as long as I knew Him, always considered himself Irish. I have 3 sons & 4 grandchildren so the name will be sent forth.
  God Bless,
   
  George

QT - GEORGE J FITZSIMONS <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

< replied-to message removed by QT >

George,

Here is some more. This is a birth registration from the Birth Indexes for England on Rootsweb.

Bernard William FitzSimons, registered in June 1871, Liverpool, Volume 8b, page 83. With that information you can send for the birth certificate, if you think that the Bernard FitzSimons who was a barman (see previous message), is, in fact, your ancestor.

Paddy

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George,

I had a quick look at the index for the 1901 British Census which is online. I found the following who MAY be your family. You can pay and access the actual census online, if you would like.

Bernard FitzSimons, born in Seacombe, Cheshire, living in the civil parish of Everton, occupation barman. It fits.

Annie FitzSimons, 28, born Liverpool, Lanc. living in Everton,
Annie N., 2, born Liverpool Lanc., living in Everton
John C., 4, born Liverpool, Lanc, living in Everton.

There were a lot of FitzSimons living in Everton. These looked like the most promising candidates to be your family members.

I then had a look in Roots Web free B.M. & D. indexes, online, and found an Annie Connell and a William FitzSimons married in June of 1896 in W. Derby (Livepool North) registration: Vol. 8b, Page 634. If you send for their marriage registration, it will give you the father's name and occupation for both bride and groom. So far it does not look like your family goes back to Ireland for at least several generations.

Hope the above helps.

Paddy

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Hello Paddy,
   
  My Father George, was the youngest of three children, he was born at 21 Downing in Everton. The names the of the other 2 were Annie & John. He was orphaned at 3 years old, went to live with his Uncle John ( a watch maker), who put him in an orphanage, were he lived till he joined the British army as a bandboy at the age of 14. His mother's maiden name was Annie Connell from Cork.
  My granda according to my Dad's birth certifate was a publican. He had a sister called Emma who went to Australia before my Dad was born, married a man by the name of Scantleberry. She was not Catholic. My Mother kept in touch with my great aunt until she died in 1985. My Father may have been born a Catholic, was raised in the C of E & became a Catholic when he married my Mother.
  Good Luck,
   
  George
  

QT - Paddy Chitty <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hi George:

Did your father, have siblings? Were there older siblings possibly born in Ireland?

Do you know your grandmother FitzSimons' maiden name? Was she born in Ireland? Do you know her maiden name?

Was your family Roman Catholic or Church of Ireland?

Have you exhausted English Census records?

I can understand that when your grandfather died so soon after your father's birth that he would have no memory of his father. However, surely there must be a scrap of information somewhere to go on. Perhaps something you would consider insignificant. Did his wife, your grandmother, die when your father was young too?

Have you questioned any cousins, if there are any.

Forgive the many questions. It's the LDS Librarian coming out in me.
Paddy


< replied-to message removed by QT >

I was born in Belfast County Antrim in 1933. my father George Arthur FitzSimons was born in Liverpool in 1901. ( Liverpool is the Boston of England, the Beatles were from the town & most of them had Irish names) My Granda, William Bernard Fitzsimons died approximately in 1904 & I assumed he was born in Ireland, I don't have any record as to where he was born.
  Good Luck, & God Bless
   
  George J FitzSimons

QT - Paddy Chitty <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >

I would like to contact descendents of a Thomas Fitzsimons of Co. Tyrone, Ireland, born in c1842 to James FitzSimons and Catherine Campbell. Thomas emigrated to the States and was married in 1881 to Mary Ellen Rochford, d/o John Quinlan and Mary Flyn of Co.Limerick. They were married in Manhatten, NY. She was obviously married before and he may have been too.

Paddy,

     How could I forget to say thanks for the two items you sent!
     I really appreciate both, and will probably use the business card in my chapter for this year's family history book. I do these every couple of years, and distribute them only to my own family and occasionally some close relatives. No commercial use whatever!

     And so many thanks. That card is quite a unique find, I'd say!
                                    Dave

Hi Paddy,

        Alas, it is the Lushes that I know, but not much about the FitzSimons' connection. Tom is a blank for me.

        When I was young we had a pile of a dozen or more books of Christmas carols around the house that were published by FitzSimons. My mother told me they were distant cousins, but I never learned more about them. I don&#B9;t know if she knew much more than that. I&#B9;d love to find one of these books now. They were actually very good collections. I have downloaded a couple of pictures of FitzSimons&#B9; music from the internet. Of course, another company has bought out all their catalogue.

        Online you mentioned Inglewood, which I assume is in Hamilton or that area. Perhaps I've seen it without attaching much importance to it. Anyway, by any chance is this photo Inglewood? I found it online in a real estate listing, and I wondered.

        I'll write with more tomorrow.

                                            Dave Appleyard

Good Morning, Paddy,

        It was just yesterday that I discovered the Quicktopic site and the Fitzsimons page. I'm not quite sure how it works, but obviously it allows you to reach me through email as well as in the site. If I write to you by email, does it go up online as well? Guess I'll find out. I suppose I would prefer to write to you directly so as not to feel that the world could be looking in.

        I'm in Toronto, and I think you are nearby.

        I've been working on my family tree -- forest really; we all have so many ancestral lines! -- for eight years, but have only very recently begun working on the Lush line. My mother's mother (born 1875) had the surname Lush, but until about a month ago I knew very little about her male ancestral line. Suddenly a couple of major breakthoughs have opened a lot of things up.

        Her father was the offspring of her grandfather's first wife. Katherine (Kate) Lush was the offspring of his second wife. And so my ancestor and Kate were half siblings.

        For obvious reasons the story of the FitzSimons line is of somewhat limited interest to me, except that I had heard vaguely about the music business, and always thought I'd like to know about that connection.
        I can fill you in on the Lush line as far back as the mid-1600's in at least sketchy detail -- if you are interested in that. As well I have photos of two of Kate's brothers (my great-grandfather and my
step-great-grandfather -- complicated eh?) and their descendants. I would be interested in photos of anyone close to the Kate-and-Tom family if you have them. Glad to swap!

        My process of doing genealogy is to produce a book (for extended family only) every couple of years. I love the research, writing and layout, and I get the books bound like a university thesis. They look pretty good. I would love to get a couple of pictures and to do a couple of pages on the FitzSimons connection for a Lush chapter I am now working on. The full chapter may go about 30-40 pages in total.

        I can be reached at appleyard at sympatico dot ca

        Looking forward to a virtual conversation with you.

                                                Dave ("Apple")

Hello Apple,

I am very interested in hearing what you have to say. I, myself, am not a Lush descendent, but I am a FitzSimons descendant. The Lush line comes in through my great uncle John Thomas, the older brother of my grandfather, Charles FitzSimons. Thomas' descendents (my American cousins) will be very interested to hear what you have to say. Your mail should pop up in their mailboxes too.

John Thomas was the black sheep of the family and very little is known of him. Hopefully you can fill in some of the blanks

I am looking forward to hearing more

Paddy, in Ontario, Canada


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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Dear Paddy Chiddy

     If you are still monitoring this site, I can help you a lot with the Lush/Fitzsimons story from England and Ontario.

     Post something here in response, please, and I'll fill you in. I have been tracing ancestors in the Lush line, but know little more about the Fitzsimons line than you have posted here.

Apple in Canada.

Sorry Julia,
   
  I may be related to Tom FitzSimons but I'll never know.
   I was born in Ireland & unlike people in the US,we had so many relatives there, never a thought was given to the ones who went before us.
  Good luck & God Bless
   
  George FitzSimons

QT - Julie Hess <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Looking for info on a Tom FitzSimons who painted or hand decorated dinnerware in Manchester, Vermont sometime in the mid-1900's, give or take. Dates, history, family linkage. Anything?

I am on record already. My grandfather was James FitzSimons born in Belfast July 27, 1830. His father was also James (a chandler - soap maker)who married Fanny Cubbage (Cuppage). The younger James came to US about 1850. His father died in Donaghmore, County Tyrone in 1867. Worked there at Brown's Soap Works. I have a _new e-mail address: barnaud@satx.rr.com
My FitzSimons was always pronounced as if it had two m's. Thanks. Betty

Hi Veronica,

Doing a quick Google check there seem to be a few Fitzsimons still in the Bohermeen area. I'm sure you will find a relative there somewhere.
As to the likelihood of finding one through this site, do not give up hope. I posted a query and a long time passed, then one day there was a response. I connected with the family I had hoped to find even though we were in different countries. I hope you will have a similar experience. Never give up.

Best of Irish luck.

Paddy


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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hello Veronica,

This listing below was in the Eircom Phone Book. <http://159.134.203.172/search.asp>;

Fitzsimons, Ultan & Tracy
Neillstown Bohermeen Navan Meath
Tel: 046 9075486

Good Luck,

Mick Fitzsimons
Victoria,
Australia.

Edited by author 29-12-2006 12:17 AM
MY GRANDMOTHER MARY FITZSIMONS MARRIED PETER WARD IN THE EARLY 1900S.THEY WERE BOTH FROM BOHERMEEN NEAR NAVAN IN COUNTY MEATH IRELAND.I NEVER KNEW HER AS SHE DIED WHEN DAD WAS 9 YEARS OLD ALTHOUGH I HAVE A REALLY OLD PHOTOGRAPH OF HER WITH A VERY OLD LADY I PRESUME TO BE MY GREAT GREAT GRANDMOTHER . I KNEW TWO OF HER BROTHERS CHRISTY AND MICK FROM VISITS TO BOHERMEEN AND SURROUNDING AREA WHEN I WAS A CHILD.CHRISTY HAS ABOUT 10 CHILDREN I BELIEVE SO I HAVE ALWAYS WONDERED ABOUT MY UNKNOWN RELATIONS.I ALSO HEARD ALL THE FAMILY LEGENDS ABOUT TWO OF THEIR OTHER BROTHERS GEORGE AND LARRY.GEORGE FITZSIMONS HAD A SENSE OF HUMOUR THAT WAS LEGENDARY APPARENTLY.GEORGE ,LARRY AND MICK WERE NEVER MARRIED BUT CHRISTIE MADE UP FOR THE LACK OF DESCENDANTS AND I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO MEET THEM I AM VERONICA BROWN OF WELLING KENT ENGLAND AND MY FATHER JOHN WARD AND HIS WIFE MARY IMMIGRATED TO ENGLAND IN 1938

A book about Thomas Fitzsimons, signer of the United States Constitution....Fitzsimons, Thomas: A BRIEF STATEMENT OF OPINIONS, GIVEN IN THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS, UN
1800 [Fitzsimons, Thomas or Thomas MacDonald]: A BRIEF STATEMENT OF OPINIONS, GIVEN IN THE BOARD OFCOMMISSIONERS, UNDER THE SIXTH ARTICLE OF THE TREATY OF AMITY, NAVIGATION, AND COMMERCE WITH GREAT BRITAIN: WITH AN APPENDIX. Philadelphia: Humphreys. 1800. viii, 71pp. Sewn (loosening). Half title. Untrimmed and partly uncut, with generous margins [a bit brittle at the edges]. Scattered light foxing. Good+. Fitzsimons was an Irish immigrant to Philadelphia, where he became a political leader and merchant. Thomas MacDonald and he were members of the Commission. Its function was to adjust claims arising from the Revolutionary War; a variety of these are presented and discussed. "The British Commissioners under the Jay Treaty were in the United States from 1797 to 1800 but were unable to conclude any business because the two United States Commissioners, Thomas Fitzsimons and Samuel Sitgreaves, seceded. The present work recounts the proceedings from the British viewpoint...The attribution to Fitzsimons suggested by Evans 37428 clearly is not correct because Fitzsimons was on the other side of the fence." Gaines Cobbett. This document is the first to publish the Commission's journal of its 1798-1799 proceedings. FIRST EDITION. Evans 37428. Gaines 00-08, Cobbett 169.$250
Price: USD 250.00 other currencies order no. 1706 inquire
offered by: David M. Lesser Fine Antiquarian Books LLC (USA)

Beyond beer clocks...here is a book that may be of interest to some...... Justice and Humanity by Richard Allen Morton is about the life of Edward Fitzsimons Dunne, Illinois Progressive (1853 -1937). At his death political insiders compared his role in Illinois politics to that of Woodrow Wilson on the national scene. Edward FitzSimons Dunne was born in Watertown, Litchfield County, Connecticut He was first born child of Patrick William Dunne of Tullamore,King's County (now Offaly County), Ireland and Mary Lawlor who came from a well to do family of contractors who built docks on Galway Bay. Edward had siblings, Mary, Patrick, Sarsfield and Francis. The family was devoted to the causes of Irish independence and political help for the downtrodden.

Re: the "Drink FitzSimons beer-Ale" wall clocks

When you get a really long URL (webpage address) go to this website
http://www.tinyurl.com and you can make a short one that won't line-wrap in email etc. Very handy - I use it often.

Here's the URL for the "Drink FitzSimons beer-Ale" wall clocks in short form
http://tinyurl.com/phyw4

I happened to see an advert on ebay for "Drink FitzSimons beer-Ale" wall clocks ---here is the URL

http://cgi.ebay.com/FITZSIMONS-S-Beer-Ale-...Z35717QQrdZ1QQcmdZV ewItem#ebayphotohosting

Here is an internet find to amuse the assembled crowd:

Geffen met with Tribune Chief Executive Dennis J. FitzSimons this summer to say he was interested in buying the paper.

"We had a meeting at his request, with no disclosed reason in advance," FitzSimons confirmed in a telephone interview. "At that point, he indicated his interest in the paper. And I told him it was not for sale.""

Way to hold the fort, FitzSimons! Never understimate the tenacity of someone who capitalizes a letter in the middle of their last name.

I will try to post it by Monday. I just moved back to
Indiana from Mexico and all my genealogy stuff is
still in the box. Thank heavens I'm a compulsive
organizer!

ruth

--- QT - Marcia
<qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
>


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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Ruth,

You should post it to the list. That way you might get lucky like I did and make a family connection. I had all but given up. It works.

Paddy
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Ruth,
By all means...post what Fitz info that you have ! That is how connections are made. I will find out whereabout in Chicago Harry T lived when we went to visit his house back about 1962. He was the music publisher that made me realize there was a common ancestor to trace here.

Paddy/Marcia/Erin
I am on the trail of some exciting records. That's all I will say for now. This is enormous fun.

Greetings!

I have followed your journey here with interest - and
envy!! I saw this post, however, and have a question.
 I have Jacob Fitzsimon/Fitzimmon/s (and family) in
Illinois, quite near Chicago. I'm at work right now,
so I don't have the data at hand. I would be glad to
send what I have, if anyone is interested.

ruth

--- QT - Marcia
<qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
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< replied-to message removed by QT >

Paddy,
To answer your questions about John Thomas...I do not know when or how he died. I do know that William J. was married at St. Gabriels church in Chicago at 4500 Wallace Ave. so he might be buried near there.

Paddy,
That is a neat website ! I am totally able to know who is who now.

Marcia,

I've heard of the pub but have not visited. I don't think our line has any relationship with the Dublin FitzSimons. My late father used to delude himself that I looked like Maureen O'Hara who was a Dublin FitzSimon. I wish.

Paddy

Marcia,

A family relationship calculator can be found at:

http://www.searchforancestors.com/utility/cousincalculator.html

Have fun.

Paddy

On a more general topic of interest:

Has anyone talked with or know about the FitzSimon family which runs a very nice hotel/restaurant/nightspot in Dublin on Temple Bar ? I was there once and introduced myself and was told that that was the right thing to do because the First Rule of the Road = If you see a bar with your name on it, stop in and have a drink.

That was as far as I got since the owner was not there.

Greetings,
Being new to geneology I have to ask; what is this once, or twice removed stuff about ? I would like to at least be included among those who know what it means to be removed :) I am right in telling Erin that Paddy is her great grandfathers cousin, yes ?

Marcia

GEORGE J FITZSIMONS who has posted many times on here, I have lost your e-mail address. Could you please contact me at <mickfitzsimons@hotmail.com>,
I'm the one from Australia.

Regards,

Mick.

Hi Erin,

Pleased to meet you. I am in Hamilton, about an hour's drive from St. Catharines. I lived in Fonthill for 9 years and spent a lot of time in St. Catharines which was a 15 minute drive away.

As near as I can figure, you are my second cousin twice removed, and your mother and aunt are my second cousins once removed. My grandfather and your 2x great grandfather were brothers who emigrated from Ireland.

It is very exciting for me to finally find some missing relatives in the U.S. I've been looking for years.

Thanks for introducing yourself.

Paddy

Hi Paddy,

I understand that you are from Ontario. Where exactly? I attended a private school in St. Catharine's for a few months in high school and was curious if you or any of the family lives near by.

Erin

PS. So you know, I am Mary FitzSimons Graham's daughter and William George's granddaughter....and also Marcia's niece. So that would make us.....?????????

Hi Mary,

Thanks for the information regarding the Ambrose name.

I sent Marcia the information, off list, on Henry and Annie's sad story late last night. She sent me the beautiful family photo. William James does look like he belongs in our family.

Paddy
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Paddy,
Going back to an earlier post(#62) of yours. Why was the story of our common relatives Henry Fitzsimons and Annie Stevenson so sad?

Marcia,
I was looking over your previous post. I believe that our Grandfather, William John FitzSimons (Born Toronto, July 18, 1887), was married to Annah Mulvey (Born Chicago, April 2, 1889).

Also, note William Ambrose/George FitzSimons was born on 8-10-1920, not 1921 as I posted below. His sister Rita FitzSimons was born on June 8, 1916.

Hello Paddy and Marcia. This has been great fun! I just wanted to make a note of something, Paddy, because you seem to keep careful records.

Our father was born and baptised as William Ambrose FitzSimons. He loathed his middle name, so when he took "George" as his confirmation name, he simply dropped "Ambrose" and became forever more William George FitzSimons. Wanted to point that out in case you ever come across a birth/baptismal record for William Ambrose FitzSimons (B. Chicago 8-10-1921)and were confused by the difference in the middle name.

Marcia,

You can send the photo to conywarren@yahoo.ca
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Paddy,
to what email address should I send the photo ?

Marcia,

Here is a photo that I don't didn't have to scan as it was already in my photo file. Pictured is the estate called Inglewood. It was once owned by a very influential man named John Stuart. He was, among other things, a member of parliament. Our ancestor, Henry Fitzsimons worked for him as his coachman. I was told by my dad's cousin Irene, a daughter of Robert Fitzsimons, that Henry's family always enjoyed fresh fruit in winter as Henry grew it in the conservatory at Inglewood. Inglewood is now condominiums. Everytime one goes up for sale and they have an open house, I go in for a look, just to imagine what it was like when Henry worked there. It is an archetectural gem and within walking distance of where I live.
Paddy

Marcia,

I don't know for sure why the spelling was changed. However, the spelling of the name was a great bone of contention. We were taught to spell it FitzSimon with the z joining the capital s. No s on the end of simon. I always suspected that my grandmother instigated the change. I guess I will never know the real reason. On the cover of my grandfather's book of poems, embossed in gold leaf, is his name spelled with an s on the end. The s has been scratched out. Is is, alas, one of several mysteries.

I look forward to receiving the scanned photo.

Paddy

Paddy,

What was the story about only your grandfather spelled the name as FitzSimons ?

Ms. Paddy,
Thank you for the generous offer about the documents. I have scanned the wedding photo and will gladly send it. William James and his wife Annie are directly behind the bride. People have told me that I take after my fathers side of the family also.

Marcia,

I would be more than happy to look up and copy the birth registration for your William James and the marriage registration for John Thomas FitzSimons and Katherine Lush. I likely won't get around to it right away, but eventually.

Paddy

Marcia,

Yes, please, I'd like a copy of the wedding photo. Hey, maybe I look like her (I'm female by the way). It
will be interesting to see if there is a family resemblance. I look like my grandfather's FitzSimon's sister Annie. I should try
to get my scanner hooked up again and try to scan some photos for you. It's been down so long I don't know if I remember how to use it.

Out of curiosity, are there any writers in your line?

Mary asked about whether or not someone born in Canada would put down British on their naturalization record. That's possible. Canada was, and still is, part of the British Commonwealth of Nations. The Queen is still pictured on some of our money.

Paddy

Mary,

That is correct, our common ancestors are Henry Fitzsimons and Annie Stevenson.

Paddy
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

post script - that was meant to read Annie C. Mulvay (or possibly Mulvey)

And for the FitzSimons record....John Thomas married Katherine Lush; William J. married Annie C.in 1911; and William George married Mary McWilliams in 1944.

Paddy
If I have this right, your Grandfather Charles and our Great Grandfather John T. were brothers, so we have Henry and Annie Stevenson in common.

Great Paddy ! I can understand all your pieces quite well. As far as children of John Thomas…, my dad said there were three; Harry, William J. and a daughter he called Gertie. I have a beautiful family wedding photo that I believe is her wedding in about 1912. I will try to scan it in and send it to you if you like.

Here is my email if you would like to connect that way:
mrschristian@earthlink.net

and thank you Wayne Fitzsimons for this FitzSimons forum which was so helpful !

Paddy
Thank you for all the extensive research and valuable information. Marcia has become our family geneology sleuth, so I will leave it to her to see if this lineage fits into what she already knows. Marcia, I found William J.'s FitzSimons application for US naturalization, not his birth certificate as I had thought. He is listed thereon as born in Toronto of British citizenship. Were all Canadians at that time consided British? Anyway, he did not apply for US citizenship until after Dad and Aunt Rita were born as they are listed on the application, as well. I will send it to you as official Keeper of the Records. Paddy, you are along for the ride now as we get more into this thing. Take good care of you mother. We'll be in touch.

Mary & Marcia,

Here is your line of descent as I see it:

James Fitzsimons m Catherine Campbell (they lived on townland of Carnony, Omagh, Co. Tyrone) - died in Ireland
                            /
            Henry Fitzsimons m Annie Stevenson of Erganagh, Omagh, Co. Tyrone - emigrated Canada /
                                John Thomas Fitzsimons, born townland of Conywarren, Omagh, Co. Tyrone
                                           /
                                    William James FitzSimons
                                                  /
                                            William George FitzSimons
I'm stuck at James and Catherine. He was a school master and I believe that he came to Omagh to teach. I find him there on Griffith Valuation but not the
earlier Tithe Applotments. I also think it is possible that he was married before and that there may be other children. I only know of three, John who was a school master also (lived in Trillick), Jane, our Henry, and the earlier Thomas that went to NY. Jane married late in life and died ten years later, having had no children. John remained in Ireland as far as I know and had at least two sons. We may still have relations in Ireland, somewhere. I could find none in the Cappagh Parish.

My father used to say that the family came from County Down. However, I don't know if that was because he saw the map of Ireland with family names on it and saw our name in Co. Down, or whether he had information from the family. My dad died when I was 18 and my mind wasn't on genealogy at that age. If only someone from another branch had that same information, it could give me a starting point.

I have not done anything on the family for a long time now. My mother is very elderly and consumes most of my thoughts and a lot of my time. I hope to get back to researching in earnest at some point in the future. Until then,
I dabble.

Can you give me the names of any other children of John Thomas?

Paddy

Mary,

It's nice to hear that another branch of the family pronounces the name as we do. All the others pronounced it Simmon rhymes with ..... I can't think of a darn thing it rhymes with. Ah, I've got it now - as in Persimmon. Love the Ritz Diamond thing.

Paddy
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Marcia,

Henry Fitzsimons married Annie Stevenson. They had a son Henry, called Harry. He was my grandfather's brother and the older brother of your John Thomas. John Thomas was the second born and yes, he was born in Ireland. Harry the music publisher was given a family name.

The Henry who emigrated to Canada was your direct ancestor, mentioned above. He brought his family, my grandfather and your John Thomas to Canada, landing at the Port of Quebec. I have the baptismal record of your John Thomas in Ireland. There were eight children that came here with Henry and Annie.

Paddy

When introducing himself, my father, William G. FitzSimons, always made a point of saying, "It rhymes with Ritz Diamonds"

I thought all you purist FitzSimons with one M and the long i sound would get a kick out of that one.

Hello again Paddy

I am happy to see my sister's input here. I may need some help getting these names straight ! Did you say you met a daughter of Harry in Ontario? Are there two Harry s ?

Entry 54 says that Henry emigrated to Canada with his family...Did you mean with his siblings or with his children ? ie. Was your grandfather (Charles) born in Ireland ? Do you think that John Thomas might have been?

Hi Mary,

I suspect that there was little contact between my family and those who moved to the States. My grandfather, Charles FitzSimon (dropped the final s) was a poet. I have his handwritten book which contains some poems written to family members and a few letters from family members. There is nothing that I can recall from the U.S. All I found was the postcard-type photograph of John Thomas with a faint impression of the words (I'm going from memory here) when will we three be together again or see each other again. John T. does not appear in the family photo taken when their mother passed away in 1912. I think the only one of John Thomas' siblings that went to the U.S. and remained in touch with family in Ontario was Annie (Fitzsimons) Swift. Sadly she has no descendants.

I'm sorry I have no information on your the cousin John you mention who was killed on Guadalcanal.

My family had no contact with that the descendants of my grandfather's siblings until I started to research the family and approached what few cousins my father had left at the time. I spoke to three, a daughter of Harry in Toronto, ON, a daughter of William in Hamilton, ON, and a daughter of Robert, also in Hamilton. All of them are gone now. I was so happy that I made the effort to reach out to them as they were all wonderful people and were very welcoming.

I've been to Ireland and seen where the family home stood. I visited the two churches where our ancestors worshipped and looked at the original church records. It was a trip I will never forget.

Paddy

Hello to the Canadian Fitzs. Was delighted that my sister Marcia made contact with you. We are busy comparing memories of family stories from days gone by. My father William G. FitzSimons (B. Chicgo 1921, son of William J. FitzSimons (b. Ontario date?)was a Marine in the Pacific Theater during WWII. I remember hearing that his cousin (John FitzSimons, possibly son of Harry of the Music Publishing Company) was killed in combat on Guadalcanal or one of the islands. Ever hear a story like that? More later.

Marcia,

As far as I'm concerned, this is even better. Your family is the one I set out to find and now I have. I have a photograph of John Thomas, your great grandfather, sitting on a donkey in Des Moines, Iowa. Do you have any idea of when he passed away or where? I also have photographs of your 2xgreat grandparents, Henry Fitzsimons and Annie Stevenson. Their story is a sad one. They are buried here in Hamilton, ON. right beside my grandfather.

Do you know where your William J. was born? Was it here in Ontario? I've never really delved into John Thomas' family as he has been rather elusive.
Why do we all seem to wait until the generation that could have given us the answers dies, before we start asking the important family questions?
Paddy


< replied-to message removed by QT >

I have looked into some notes that my father left and I realize now that my grandfather, William J. is the son of John Thomas FitzSimons. So Harry T. was my father’s uncle that we went to visit.
I have the William J. marriage certificate indicating that he was born in 1887, married in 1911 in Cook County Illinois to Miss Annie Mulvay. I know that he and Annie had two children, then he died in 1959 at the age of 72.

Hello Marcia,

What an absolute thrill it is to finally find someone who is researching the same family. I did make contact with one of William J.'s daughters and what she told me is quite a different story from what you are saying with regard to her father's death. If I am to understand you correctly, he lived to be 91. That is incredible. FitzSimons males were not known for longevity. I think there was a family secret going on that would account for the discrepancy. I would be happy to discuss this aspect of the family history off list if you want to give me your e-mail address.

I can take you back a couple of generations and fill you in on the family here in Ontario. I look forward to hearing from you.

Paddy


< replied-to message removed by QT >

Reply to Paddy Chitty …… We have a match !

I met Harry T. FitzSimons, the music publisher in Chicago. We went to his home in Chicago when I was about 10 years old with my father William George FitzSimons.

Charles FitzSimons of Ontario is your grandfather and his brother ,William J. FitzSimons is my grandfather. William J. was back and forth across the Canadian border then settled in Chicago and eventually in Euclid Ohio, where he moved in with his son, William George FitzSimons and family. William J. had been the head bartender at a very nice Chicago restaurant called Irelands. In his youth he was a jockey, mostly at county fair races. He died in 1959 of lung cancer. My father, William G. died in 2001. He would have enjoyed finding some long lost relatives… he did not ask his parents many questions about family history.

It will take me a little while to pull together what else my family knows about our history. I have just gotten interested in geneology while tracing my mothers family and getting registered in the Irish book of foreign births. I am so glad to have my fathers side documented back to a location in Ireland ! I had intended to start looking into this part of the family picture but did not know where to start in Ontario.

Born : Marcia FitzSimons

G'day to all the Fitzy contributors to this website, the more we have the better. Good to see George, you are still having some imput and always constructive and helpful.

Just one problem with the website, I haven't been getting notified of all postings and could have had many comments/help for some of the submitters. Has anyone else had this problem? Now I have to remember to go over all the old postings.

One thing I can assure you all of, if there is a roblem, "cousin Wayne" will fix it.

Hello Ian,
   
  I'm George Joseph Fitzsimons, born & raised in Belfast, Ireland in 1933. My Father George Arthur Fitzsimons born in Liverpool England in 1901 He had a brother named John & a sister named Annie.
  He was orphaned & raised in an orphanage in Liverpool till he was 14 My Grandfather William Bernard Fitzsimons married to Annie Connell & both had died about 1904 He had a sister named Emma who went to Australia who married a Cantelberry. My mother kept in contact with her, but both are long dead, & we lost contact with them. My family have always have spelt the name Fitzsimons or FitzSimons
  Good Luck on your search,
  & God Bless
   
  George
   
   
  

QT - Paddy Chitty <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Greetings!

I'd be very interested in knowing more. I've got
Fitzsimons in Indiana also. Could you contact me off
list, please?

Thank you!

ruth

--- QT - Ian McKinney
<qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:

>
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Ian,

You are describing a situation identical to what happened with my family name, FitzSimon. With the exception of my grandfather, all of his family spelled the name Fitzsimmons and pronounced it so. It was always a great bone of contention.
Most of my grandfather's siblings settled in Ontario, Canada. One of his brothers, John Thomas, settled in the States. He was in Chicago in 1896 and in DesMoines Iowa in 1912. He went by Tom. He had a son, Harry T. FitzSimons who was a music publisher in Chicago. Harry T. and his wife Grace had several children: Ruth E., Catherine I, Ralph T., John H. and Robert C. I have not been successful in tracing any of them. I recently found that my grandfather's uncle, also a Thomas Fitzsimons was married in Manhattan, NY in December 1881 to Ellen Mary Rochford.
My grandfather's family came from Omagh, Co.Tyrone, Ireland to Canada in 1880. The brother John Thomas and a sister, Annie Caroline (married a Swift) both went to the Chicago, the rest of the family remained in Canada.
The line of decent is as follows:

James Fitzsimons (b.c1792 - d. 1879) & Catherine Campbell (1802 - 1878) of Carnony, Cappagh Parish, Omagh, County Tryrone, Ireland John Fitzsimons (settled in Trillick, Co. Tyrone)
        Henry Fitzsimons - (1838 - 1891) emigrated to Canada with his family on September 30, 1880 Thomas Fitzsimons (b. Oct. 29, 1841) - went to N.Y.
        Jane Fitzsimons (married a William McCullagh)
        
Henry Fitzsimons m Annie Stevenson of Lislimnaghan, Cappagh Parish, Omagh, County Tryone, Ireland Henry James Fitzsimons
        John Thomas Fitzsimnons (went to U.S.)
        William FitzSimons
        Catherine Fitzsimons
        Charles FitzSimon (my grandfather)
        Annie Caroline Fitzsimons (went to U.S.)
        Robert Fitzsimons
        George Fitzsimons
    
Hoping to find someone out there that is researching this family.
Paddy

>
< replied-to message removed by QT >

Ian, Have a quick look at this page:-
http://www.fitzsimons.info/one-m-or-two.html
Cheers
Wayne

I'm married to a FitzSimons, and her whole family (except one "black sheep" branch - just kidding) spells it this way but pronounces it "Fitzsimmons", with a short "i", like in "individual". Not sure how common that is; this is a family that was based in Indiana. From reading a bit on this site, it sounds like it's not necessarily the rule ... or am I wrong?

Hello Mandy,
  I have seen Thomas Fitzsimons statue in Philadelphia, that about as close as I come to be related to him. I think he was from Wexford. The Fitzsimons name is prevelant in the counties of Cavan & Down. My Father was born in Liverpool England of Irish parents but they died at a young age. Have been unable to locate my family tree beyond my Grandparents. I was born in Ireland & spelt my name FitzSimons, but because of some confusion, I now make it one word.
  Good Luck & God Bless
   
  George
   
  

QT - Mandy Green <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >

I am looking for information about Thomas Fitzsimons who signed the Constitution of the United States. My grandmother was a Fitsimons and I have been told that she was a direct descendent of Thomas FitzSimons. I am looking for any information on the family tree.
Thanks.

Betty I'm wondering if and hoping that we have a connection. The earliest I have been able to go back in my family tree is to a James FitzSimons who I had assumed was born around 1800 and I know nothing more about him except that on a certificate he is listed as as having been a Soap Manufacturer.

He married an Anne Farquar and they had the children on this old webpage of mine (which I have uploaded only so you can see it). The following is the link to it. It is important to note that James and Anne certainly had more children than those listed and the family history knows that some of those other children emmigrated to USA but the links to them have been lost.

See this link http://wayne.fitzsimons.info/oldsite/family.htm

Hoping you can see a link - Wayne FitzSimons Email: Wayne@FitzSimons.info

There are many FitzSimonses but I cannot make a connection. My grandfather, James FitzSimons, was born in Belfast in 1830 (baptised July 27, 1830 at St. Patrick RC Church on Donegall St.)to James FitzSimons and Fanny Cubbage.He had a brother, Daniel, born in 1829 but I do not know what became of him. The senior James worked as a Chandler in the Dock area of Belfast until about mid-1840's when the family moved to Donaghmore, County Tyrone where he worked for the Brown Soap Factory until his death in 1867 at age 67. The younger James, my GF, came to the US sometime prior to 1852as he entered the US Army that year in Newport, KY - stayed in service off and on over 20 years. Married my grandmother, Mathilda Hebestreit in Baton Rouge, LA in 1867 - He was 37, she was 17. He was very literate - loved to write, esp. poetry. If anything rings a bell, please contact me at: b.arnaud@swbell.net

Hello Margaret,
   
  My name is George Fitzsimons, & have been called Fitz SIMMONS a zillion times. My Father George Arthur Fitzsimons was born on 9-9-01 at 21 Downing St. Everton North, Co. Liverpool. ( This is what is written on his birth certificate) I know Liverpool is a city not a county, got it from Somerset house) His Father was William Bernard who was a publican. His mother was name Annie nee Connell & was from Co. Cork. He was the youngest of three, the rest were John & Annie.
  My Father was orphaned at the age of 3 & was put in an orphanage till he was 14 when he joined the army as a band boy & sent to Belfast, where he met my Mother. My grandfather had a sister named Emma who immigrated to Australia, & a brother called John who was a watchmaker. My Mother kept in contact with the Australian relatives, but we have lost contact with them. Have tried to find them on the internet without success.
   
  Sincerely
  George Fitz-SIMONS (as I keep telling them Simons as in simple)
   
   
  

"QT - margaret.fitzsimons@btint" <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

Best wishes to all Fitzsimonses. I am glad that someone has followed up my research into the religious cannotions of the spelling of the name. Fitzsimmons, here, in England, Scotland and Wales is always pronounced SIMMONS and I am, regretabbly always pulled up and given short shrift when I ask for my name to be pronounced SIMONS. One of my Liverpool ancestors got so fed up with this that she hyphenated the name in the early part of the 20th century and others, in Lancashire, have followed. But, we have resisted, so far. My name is always spelt incorrectly and in Northern Ireland Records Office I was rudely told (in 2001) that "it's all the same anyway!" Thereafter, for the remains of my visit my name was incorrectly pronounced and I got fed up correcting them. The spelling and pronunciation of a person's name is a courteous dignity and not a lottery! I freqently makes a mistake with other people's names or I ask them in advance: then apologise immediately if I have got it wrong.
Although the religious angle is only hearsay and guesswork on my part (the rumour oringated in Cavan) I think that there is some legitimacy for claiming an R.C. bias as there were (and still are) a lot of Roman Catholic clergy of this name. My ancestor was an interesting character who, as a sailing Captain, took convicts to Australia in the 1850's and 1860's. His Will is dated 1869 and all it says is that he died at sea. I have no other information. His name was George Fitzsimons and he was born in Kilmegan in 1825 but there were probably already Fitzsimonses established in Whitehaven, England, of this branch of the Fitzsimons family in the 18th century. And the turn up in Liverpool for the same period where they were mainly FITSIMONS but not all were married in the R.C. church. I would like to hazard a guess that it is the Scottish Fitzsimonses who changed to "mm" and that they did so was due to expediency. I would be very grateful if one of our young Fitzsimonses would carry on with the Royal Society of Genealogists, in London, where I have left off as it is impossible to get them to part with any information free or otherwise. We should be very proud of the fact that a Fitzsimons was at the side of the Black Prince at Crecy (26th Aguust 1346) or was it Poitiers (?) and no one wants to know as the Order of the Garter is all rather posh now and they don't want any "plebs" coming up with proof of ancestry. So go to it and the best of luck! I am grateful to Wayne Fitzsimons for all his past efforts on our behalf. Although female and a pensioner now, I was startled when I saw his photograph taken when he was a young man. It was very like myself when I was that age. This is surely a lack of mobility and fixed location. The family resemblances across the world are worth noticing. And, like many Fitzsimonses, my brother, Brian was a brillian artist and the English M.P. Lorna Fitzsimons also majored in Art. Then we have Derek Fitzsimons, the Sculpturer and artist. Let's have a list of litterati and glitterati and also the not so glamourous as often interests and hobbies are intuitive as well: amongst families. My best wishes to everyone carrying on the good work. Why not ask Maureen O'Hara to become honorary president of this site? Or her sister, who is an Irish Roman Catholic nun?
Email 20/03/06 from: Margaret Fitzsimons - Diploma in Local History (University of Liverpool)

Sorry Phillip,
  Just called you Kevin

QT - fitzsimons phillip <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

Hello Kevin,
   
  We must be related some how, but I think it must go back a long long way. My dad was born in Liverpool, but I don't know where my grandfather was born. Was in the Yankee Army with a Fitzsimons from Co.Meath, & some people thought we looked alike. Mick Fitzsimons in "Aussie Land " knows a great lot about our name, perhaps he might be able to help you.
  God Bless,
   
  George

QT - fitzsimons phillip <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

Edited by author 05-12-2005 06:22 AM
hi i am grandson of frank and rose fitzsimons of kells co. meath. my father is phillip and we have always lived in London.We are a bit thin on the ground in the UK .So if you are related,please let me .Best regards.

Hello Mick,
 
Would be really greatful for any info. on my Aussie family.
 
I went home with the wife & 6 kids to Ireland. for 2 years in 1973, because of the troubles, we lived in Dublin, & I heard our name mispronounced quite often.
 
I go home twice a year, just back on Sept & the next trip in 117 days, (not that I'm counting.) It's only an 8 hour flight to Dublin, yours would probably be a complete day.
Ireland is a very expensive to live & each years it seems to jump up. My nephew just bought a 500 Sq. Ft condo in Dublin, for $300, 000 (U.S.) Saw an ad. while staying with friends in Wicklow for Toyota RAV 4 for $50,000. my wife has one & we paid $21,500 tax included.
 
 
 
God Bless,
 
 
George
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


QT - Mick Fitzsimons <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

George,

I have found out a little about your family and if you like to contact me directly, mickfitzsimons@hotmail.com I will send you a chart and relevant information.

I hate to disagree with you on the name, but the only part of Ireland that I have heard of the misspelling and mispronunciation of the name FITZSIMONS, is in the north. This is probably due to a greater British influence there. I traveled around the Republic of Ireland and never once had my name misspelled or pronounced wrongly. The correct way to pronounce FITZSIMONS is Fitz-sigh-mons. Pronouncing the “i” as in simple, is how you pronounce FITZSIMMONS. You are correct that Maureen O’Hara was very particular about how the name was spelled and also pronounced. I found everyone in the Republic of Ireland with that name were also very particular in how it was pronounced. All early documents that I have seen personally, if the person came from The Republic, no matter how the name was written, it was always signed with one m. Those who couldn’t write, had no hope.

Even today, I can say my name and spell it, then the person writing it down, nearly always puts another m in it and calls me FITSZIMMONS, so what hope did people have going back a couple of hundred years.

Regards,

Mick

< replied-to message removed by QT >

Hello Kevin,
 
According to my Fitzsimons key chain tag,
The gaelic name is MacSiomoin.
The most important Fitzsimons came from Hertfordshire in England & settled in the Dublin area. in 1323. They became landed gentry in Co. Dublin & West Meath.
The Fitzsimons motto is " Virtue to the Sky."
In years gone by, people spelt phonetically until Monks in Oxford came up with a dictionary. Quite often when I grew up in Ireland, people called me Fitzsimmons & I'm sure you run into the same. Maureen O' Hara the movie star in The Quiet Man, her real name was Fitzsimons & I hear she would always correct people & say only one "M" I tell them Fitz as in Seizure, & Simons as in Simple.
 
God Bless,
 
George Fitzsimons
 
 
 
 
 
 

QT - Kevin FitzSimons <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

Great to see such a site exists. I especially appreciated the etymologies of the name people have provided. I've always been at a loss when explaining why FitzSimons and Fitzsimmons are basically the same to non-Fitz's. Didn't at all know about the Mac Shiomoin gaelic form. Thanks!

Here's a bit of family history: About us, I was born 1966 on Mather Air Force Base in Sacramento, married to Tae Hee (b. 1974) living in Southern California. I have two sisters living in Northern California, Shannon (b.1972) and Mary (b. 1964). We are children of Alfred M. FitzSimons (b. 1938 in Baltimore, MD USA) and Deirdre Mulready FitzSimons (b. 1941 in Lynn, MA USA). My father's parents were Daniel H. FitzSimons (1890-1972) and Mary Lucia FitzSimons (born Mary Besche in Baltimore 1915-1987). My grandfather was involved in the beer brewing business in Baltimore in the post-Prohibition period (and possibly during?). Family lore has placed our relatives in Evansville, Indiana where my grandfather worked for Standard oil before he moved to Baltimore and married my grandmother.

Here are 2 links discussing Baltimore's American Beer which mentions my grandfather and his brother Claude, uncle John and cousin Leiter who ran the brewery together.
http://www.collectorcafe.com/article_archi...article=100&id=1485
http://www.collectorcafe.com/article_archi...article=100&id=1484

Dad met my mom at the University of Maryland, then joined the military in the early 60's and we traveled around the country as kids until the late seventies. Everytime we moved to a new place, as soon as we got a phone directory, we looked into the F section to see if we had any relatives in the new town. Dad finally retired in 1984 after being restationed to Mather in Sacramento. He now lives back at the family home in Baltimore. His older brother, also named Daniel, passed away 1999.

My mother's side family history is more recent in emigration from Ireland, and therefore more accessible, however the FitzSimons side of our family history gets murky to me beyond what I've described above.

Best regards~

Hello Mick,
Thanks for the offer to find my relatives in Aussie Land.
Got more info. on my great aunt, from my auld sister. She hangs around with Al Heimer & Ben Gay, so I don't how much is right. She married a man by the name of Scantleberry & after he died she married a Smith. Her House name was Melling House
in Maffra, Gypsland.
How long has your family been in Aussie Land & what part of Ireland did they come from. Fitzsimons name is common in Counties Cavan & Down.
 
God Bless,
 
George
 


QT - Mick Fitzsimons <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

G'day George,

I'd be happy to try and find your family in Oz if you can give me a bit more detail. Where did Emma settle and did she marry before or after arriving. E-mail me: mickfitzsimons@hotmail.com

Regards,

Mick.

Hi George,
I'm afraid the priest mixed up genealogy with theology.
:-)
I wonder where he got the wrong information?

A way of forming patronymic names used by the Strongbownians was the use of the prefix Fitz-, which was derived from the French word fils, and ultimately from the Latin filius,: both mean son. Although this prefix probably originated in Flanders or Normandy, it is now unknown in France and is found only in Ireland. The surname Fitzsimons is derived from the personal name Simon. The common Norman form of this name was Simund, which was ultimately derived from the personal name Shim'on, which is derived from the verb sham'a, which means to hearken. The name features the distinctive Irish patronymic prefix fitz, which means son of in Anglo-French. This is derived from the Old French word fils, which ultimately comes from the Latin word filius. The Gaelic form of the surname Fitzsimons is Mac Shiomóin. Variations in the spelling of this surname were extremely common.

Thank You Wayne,
 
I got the info. about the prefix from a priest who taught theology at Oxford U in England.
QT - Wayne FitzSimons <qtopic+21-KBz4x3A67FT8@quicktopic.com> wrote: < replied-to message removed by QT >

George - Re: you message immediately below.

The following statement you made is a popular misconception (pardon the pun).
"The prefix Fitz means recognized bastard of king Simon.
Recognized meant that the King raised him as his son, & he was granted all the privilege of a King's son."

The prefix "Fitz" definitely ONLY means "Son of". The name FITZROY is believed to be the name bestowed on illegitimate children sired by Royalty. The prefix "Fitz" definitely has nothing whatever to do with "bastard son" least of all a King Simon.

You could search the following site for FitzSimons/Fitzsimmon in Australia. It takes a while to come up but it's a good resource - maybe you'll find Emily.

http://millennium.fortunecity.com/lassie/168/

Cheers
Wayne

Mt name is George J Fitzsimons
Born in Belfast in 1933
Came to the US when I was 21
The capital S was used when I lived in Ireland.
My father was George A Fitzsimons, born in England in 1901 at 21 Downing St.in Everton, Co. Liverpool.
He was orphaned at the age of 3 & lived in an orphanage till he was 14.
He had a sister called Annie & a brother named John.
His father was William Bernard Fitzsimons & his Mother maiden was Annie Connell & she was born in Cork.
They owned a pub in Everton.
My grandfather had a sister called Emma who emigrated to Australia probably at the end of the 19th century.
He also had a brother who was a watch maker in Liverpool.

My Mother keeped in contact with the family in Australia, but we lost contact since she died 20 years ago.
The prefix Fitz means recognized bastard of king Simon.
Recognized meant that the King raised him as his son, & he was granted all the privilege of a King's son.

This site rocks

Just received the death certificate for Veronica Fitzsimmons. It states that her father was Matthew and her mother was Anne (Oclair). Both parents from Co. Clare, Ireland. The 1910 Census places them in Chicago on 51st Street. Matthew is listed as a Plasterer. Veronica was born in 1893 in Illinois. She had sisters, Agnes, Anna, Teresa. I believe that Agnes married a Patrick O'Connor (Scoth born). The 1920 Census shows the O'Connor family living on E 50th Street in Chicago. Per the census, all the children (Nancy, James, Patricia, and Jack) were also born in Scotland. Not sure how Agnes and Patrick met up. Anne married a Ballard and they also lived in Chicago. Again, I'm not totally sure but I think sister Teresa may have entered the convent. Can anyone see a connection?

Reply message to Maureen - Do you have any information about your Fitz's that came to the US?

My Fitzsimons family comes from County Meath. Francis Fitzsimons married Rose Daly (both born in Trim) in 1914. He was the son of Thomas Fitzsimons and Esther McFadden. His older brothers Tommy and Jimmy went to America. Francis & Rose lived in Kells where they had 13 children. Rose was born 1891 daughter of Andrew Daly and Mary Anne Hayden.
Does any of this sound familiar?

My name is Sharon Anne Fitzsimmons.

I am new at the hobby of genealogy.

I was born September 1, 1954 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I understand that I am related to James and Ada (Neil)Fitzsimmons. From my research I have learned that James and Ada and their daughter Catherine May lived at 190 Spadina St. Toronto ON in 1954 and James drove a truck for Smith Transport in 1954. James and Ada moved to I don't know where. I haven't been able to determine if there were any other children. James and Ada would be about 85 or 90, if they are still living, and Catherine May would be about age 68.

If there is anyone who recognizes my little bit of family history I would appreciate hearing from them.
Sharon. email nonstopcooking@sympatico.ca

Jonathan Fitzsimmons here (20 years old, born in Salisbury, Maryland, now living in Edgewater, Florida)...son of Norris Thomas Fitzsimmons (62 years old, born in Maryland, now living in Florida)...son of Ernest Thomas Fitzsimmons (deceased, born in Washington D.C., Buried in Maryland)...son of James Francis Fitzsimmons (deceased, born in New York). My Great Grandfather James served with General Custer in the Indian Wars. My family and I are headed to Ireland in July or August of 2005. If anyone would like to contact me about family history or our upcoming trip to Ireland, please contact me at jf42784@yahoo.com. Thanks, Jon

Hi I was wondering if anyone had any information on the Fitzsimons family from the medieval period as I'd love to hear it?

For those who are interested a brief overview of my own family tree (I've got more information if its really of interest to you). My great great grandfather was Walter Fitzsimons a Dublin train driver who was married to Mary McCabe, my great grandfather Thomas Fitzsimons married Mary Meehan in Hargate Church (I think, I've got it at home somewhere) Dublin in 1908. He was a cobbler (served in Egypt in WW1 as a saddler) and the family had a sweet shop near the Liffey (according to my sweet toothed grandfather who also mentioned cousins, Moores I think, in Navan). After a family arguement they moved to Wigan Lancashire England. Where my grandad lived most of his life and my dad was born and raised and I and my sister were born. We moved to Birmingham at a young age and thats the end of the tale for now.

Greetings! I stumbled across this board while doing queries on the surname "Fitzsimon/Fitzsimmon." I don't have alot of information, but here's what I have:

Jacob Fitzsimon (Fitzsimmon), lived in Pennsylvania, USA in the 1800's. POssibly born in 1812, unknown if he was born in Pennsylvania or not. Wife's name possibly Rebecca, possibly born in Ohio. Their children: Catharine, Petre (Peter?) Mary, Matilda, and Mariah. Matilda is my gg-grandmother. If anyone has other information, please contact me, or if you would like sources for my information.

Thanks!

ruth

Hi! My Grandmother's maiden name was Veronica Fitzsimmons. She died befor I was born. She was married to Charles F. O'Beirne and they lived in Chicago. They had 2 children, John or "Jackie" as he was always called (my father) and Donna. I have not been able to really find out any information because I am the oldest living O'Beirne woman. I "think" she passed in 1946 - died young from illness. The children were raised by Charles with the assistance of his 2 sisters - Margaret and Mayme (neither ever married). I do remember hearing Veronica was very active in the church (St. Kilians). The only other thing I can remember are the names Healy, Ballard, and O'Conner - these people may have been blood related or through marriage. Does this ring any bells?

hi my name is Jessica Fitzsimmons. i am so excited that i found this site. anyway im in ontario canada. i recently started looking up my family history i wuold really like to find out more. my great grandfather joseph R or john fitzsimmons was living in new brunswick he died in 1946. he was married to caroline james who was born abt 1863 died feb 3 1925. anyway anyone who might have any info can reach me at wasntmeX4@aol.com and i will check this board again thank you. Jessica

Paul, I'm looking forward to hearing from you. I ordered some veterans records for Melissa Fitzsimmons husband, but It probably won't give me many clues about Melissa. I'm very glad the hurricanes missed you, they're probably scarier than our California earthquakes!

Hi gang - I think I might have your link - Found an Fitzsimons on my travels in the US - will write it up soon.

So glad I moved from Irleand to Florida, Tampa - Hurricanes missed me :-)

Paul

I don't know where else to look!

My G Grandfather was George Lyman Taft. His father was Lowell Taft (aka charlie) and he married Melissa Fitzsimmons. They had two children together and I can find the family on the 1860 census in Lee County Iowa. Melissa's siblings are living with them. It looks like a Thomas (born around 1841) and Mill or Will (born around 1846.) The Fitzsimmons were born in Pennsylvania. In the next census, she's gone and he's remarried. I think she died real young, perhaps even in child birth. If you have any information, please contact me. Melissa is my GG Grandmother. I would like to honor her memory by knowing more about her.

Hi I am wondering if anybody has any information or links to my father Gerald Fitzsimons who was a Sargent Major in the Queens Royal Regiment - UK he was in both world wars had a brother called Henry. Unfortunately no more info than that ! as sadly he died when I was very young.
I was also wondering if any anybody had any stories or information of any Fitzsimons's being in the Retail/ shop keeping trade anywhere in the world - hoping to hear ! - Suzanne Fitzsimons

I received tis story from a genealogy friend in the US and thought if might be of interest for it's historical account of the perils of early sailing. It is also about the nephew of a Thomas Fitz-Simons:

When we last spoke of John Maitland, the Rebel had made his escape as speedily as possible to the seacoast where he was fortunate enough to find a vessel bound for Philadelphia, the home of his uncle Thomas Fitz-Simons.

Now the young Rebel bid farewell to his native shores forever and the vessel on a bright sunshiny day, with a fresh wind wafting them westward and all sails set, there was everything to encourage the hope that they would have a happy and speedy voyage to "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave".

There were very few cabin passengers, while the steerage was crowded. All went well for a few days; the sea was so smooth that there was very little trouble from sea-sickness and the people were cheerful and hopeful. But this was not to last long. On the fourth day out, a heavy storm commenced with all the accompanying discomfort and suffering; particularly among the steerage passengers, many of whom were so sick that they were utterly helpless, at the mercy of every pitch and roll of the vessel and unable to prepare their food even if they could have eaten it, when cooked. Maitland suffered no inconvenience from sea-sickness, and his warm heart so sympathized with the sufferings around him, that he might as well have been a steerage passenger for all the good he got out of the cabin, being constantly engaged in nursing the sick, comforting the disheartened, and encouraging the despondent. As a consequence, of course, he became a favorite with all these poor people and with the captain and crew - and was recognized as a jolly good fellow and a good sailor.

The storm continued day after day, the sea was running mountain high, the winds blew at times almost a hurricane, and few of the passengers dared show themselves above the hatchways. The sun was not seen for weeks, the vessel was blown clear out of its tracks and the reckoning was lost. The sick and suffering lost all heart and many would lie all day unwilling or unable to make the least exertion and apparently utterly reckless of what became of them. The Captain and the crew kept continually on the watch, day and night, and could find no time to aid their passengers. But were it not for the unwearied efforts of the young Rebel, many of these would have died or rendered desperate, have jumped overboard.

Day after day, and week after week with short intervals when the storm seemed to be abating, the same dark gloomy and threatening prospect met with the gaze of such as dared look out until even the hardiest were giving away - and then came the time when it was announced that their provisions were running short and that everyone must be put on allowance. Then indeed was there wailing and weeping, and the situation which had been considered desperate enough before, when the dangers and horrors were considered - now seemed so utterly hopeless, with the gaunt specter of famine staring them in the face that strong men dropped fainting to the ground and women prayed and wept and screamed, the children adding their shrill trebles to swell the babel of sounds.

Each morning, those who were able ventured with the first peep of daylight on deck and scanned the horizon hoping to see some signs of clearing or to catch signs of a friendly sail and each evening these lingered until their straining eyes ached and their line of vision was narrowed down to a few yards - and still each morning and evening as they went below, they could only meet the eager questions and frenzied glances of their fellow sufferers with the same answer: No hope.

After six long weeks of suffering, of almost constant storms and the blackness almost of night even at midday, there came at last a lull, the waves still rolled and tossed, their white-capped heads to the sky, but the wind had gone down gradually until it was only a gentle breeze and the sun at last broke out through the dark drifts of cloud, a harbinger of hope to those unhappy voyagers, which made them almost forget for the moment that starvation was no farther off for the bright beams, and that all the other ills and terrors through which they had passed were as nothing in comparison of this dread horror. All, however, felt more cheerful for the brighter scene and many hoped that now they would either be able to make land or fall in with a vessel to relieve them - and so the best night passed for weeks followed and there seemed to be a race as to who should be out in the morning in hopes to catch a glance of one of these their new born hope.

Alas: a new disappointment. The storm and the winds and the inkey clouds were gone. The air was still and soft. The sea was like a great field of glass, shining and calm as a summer day. But there was no breath of air. The sails hung listlessly against the mast. The vessel was apparently anchored to the bottom. Not a ripple was on the bosom of the glassy field as far as the eye could reach and the atmosphere as the sun rose like a burning meteor above the horizon was hot and dry and gave warning of what might be expected when that fiery orb should have reached his zenith. Here was a dead calm. As long as the winds blew, although there was danger of being swamped, yet with the vessel floating there was always the feeling that they were moving and a reason to hope that it might bring them to land or in sight of a vessel better off than themselves; but here in this silent sleepy calm, there was no hope - no prospect that either they should reach the shore or that any vessel could come to them - for in those days there were no steamers, and without wind, there was no motion and no hope.

The Captain and the sailors looked gloomy and despairing many of the poor people in the steerage, when the sun had heated the atmosphere and was reflected from the glassy waters until their quarters became an oven, clambered up for the first time in weeks to the deck, in the search of fresh air to cool their fevered bodies and parched tongues, but only to find that the fierce rays of the sun seemed to be burning into their brain and finding no shelter from these were feign to go back to the oven as the more bearable of the two evils.

Many questions had been asked of the Captain and the crew as to what was the prospect before them but the answer received was neither courteous nor encouraging, for in fact there seemed now to be no room for hope. Their provisions were almost entirely gone now and the water so low that but one small drink each day could be given. The calm might last for a week and human nature could not sustain this load for more than a few days longer.

Another day and then another and another and no sign of chamge and no prospect of help. The last mouthful had been eaten and the last drop of water consumed for forty-eight hours. Children were crying to their parents for food; mothers who had given what small allowance was accorded them to the children, poor, wan, starved skeletons - who could scarcely move hearing the continuous cries and mourns of their little ones. They cast their eyes over the water for a sign of hope and seeing nothing but the vasr expanse of the fiery sea and blazing sun, and knowing there was no hope within and no aid, no relief without, tottered off in their weakness to escape from the cries they could not relieve and throwing themselves into some corner, fell shrieking and praying and intermingling wild ravings and even curses upon the power which saw such misery and would not relieve it.

Father prayed and cursed and fought and raved and blasphemed, while some of both sexes, utterly crazed, laughed and gibbered, prayed and sang, all in one breath and these were happier than the others because they had lost almost the consciousness of their misery.

And now began to be seen that horrid look in the faces of the crew and even in some of the passengers which told that they laboring the thought of murder, and entertaining the idea of that awful feast which was to follow, where a fellow being was to be sacrificed and his flesh and blood used to allay the pangs of hunger and thirst. Once seriously entertained, this changes a man from a likeness of God to a Demon and puts him below the savage animal - where all sense of right and wrong is destroyed and all ideas of religion crushed: where no generosity exists and nothing is left but the one selfish feeling that everything and everybody must yield and give way to the miserable coward whose only thought is of saving his own life. These signs were plain and had been showing themselves more and more plainly until at last the Captain, who had been rying to control his men, called all on board to assemble and announced that his men had pushed him on at last to take the final step and require that lots should be drawn to decide who should be made a victim to prolong the lives of others. He said every one on board, old and young, male and female, would be required to take their chance as he and his men would also do.

He called upon Maitland to assist him, who stepping forward said, "You have decided that this horrid trial shall take place; I am perfectly willing to take my chance with the others but under no circumstances could I be induced to take advantage of the relief thus sought to be obtained. Even starvation could not force me to it. It is too revolting, too horrible to think of, and I would rather die a thousand deaths. Remember that in adopting this measure, you are about to deliberately commit murder, and this SIN is aggravated by the unnatural feast proposed and must consign your souls to hell. I beg of you to abandon this idea and continue to bear the sufferings you are now enduring and which I fully appreciate, until it pleases God either to send us help, or to end our misery in death."

The apeal was in vain. The sailors were mad and relief, even of this uncertain character, they insisted upon having. At the request of the Captain, Maitland proceeded to make out the strips which were to decide the fate of those present. After shaking them up in his hat, he handed it to the Captain, and was the first to pick out his billet, but no one was allowed to look at this until all had drawn and then the Captain went along the line requiring each to open before the whole company, the paper drawn and hand it to him. During this dread ordeal, the silence was intense and painful and the suffering was awful as each drew and held in his hand what was the decree of life or death and yet dared not relieve the anxiety by looking into the tiny paper which held his fate.

The doom fell to the lot of a young man of about eighteen, who, when his strained eyes beheld the fatal blank, fell fainting to the ground. And when brought back to consciousness, rushed shrieking to Maitland, clasped his knees and begges and implored him to save him, and so worked upon that person's sympathy that he (Maitland) took up his cause and addressing the Captain and crew said that while he fully recognized the perfect fairness of the drawing and that there could be no appeal from the result, yet in view of what was to follow, that result being "murder" and "cannibalism", he would plead with them to bear their sufferings for six hours more, and if then no help came, the poor fellow must meet his fate, adding, "Something tells me that help is near."

The crew violently protested but the passengers sided with him (Maitland) and presently the Captain spoke to his men, and said the proposition was reasonable and as the passengers had consented, and under their young leader threatened to use force to protect the victim, he thought it would be best to give the time.

The hope that help was coming seemed to take possession of all hands and all those who knew anything about such work immediately betook themselves to prayer, while the remainder watched carefully in every direction for a sign of vessels but, minute by minute, hour after hour slipped away without the least sign of one, and the eager eyes which scanned the horizon in every direction, ached with the intensity of their efforts, while the hearts sank deeper in their despair. Even those most strong in faith and trust in God showed in their faces that the "dark cloud" of despair was fast settling on their hearts. There seemed no hope, for now only minutes remained of the time which could save the intended victim and preserve them all from this dread crime.

As the darkest hour of the night is the one immediately before the breaking dawn, so this dark hour proved the harbinger of the coming hope. For on the wretched persons on that hopeless deck, there broke a sound which in a moment stirred the passive group from sullen apathy to frenzied joy as the lookout hailed the officer with the glad cry, "Sali ho!" while there went up to heaven, mingled cries and prayers and thanks, and the crowd embraced each other, shook hands and danced and sang. There were eager questions as to whether there was any chance of the vessel refusing to come to them or perhaps overlooking them - with one minute hopes in the ascendant and in the next, fear coldly killing that hope.

The coolest heads kept their eyes bent on the approaching vessel, now confident that they were observed, now again doubtful and so for sometime there were alternate seasons of hope and almost despair. Soon, however, it was evident that the stranger saw them and was answering their signals while it was plain to see that she was coming straight to them. Then ensued a scene which those who were present could never forget, a perfect babel of laughter and crying, shouting and singing, praying and swearing, hand shaking and embracing, dancing and mingled with heartfelt prayers and thanksgivings of the more devout, who, restraining their excitement, recognized the duty of returning thanks to thanks to the Divine Power which had brought them help in this their time of dire need.

The strange vessel reached them and their Captain coming onboard and, seeing the condition of these starving people, at one signaled his officers to send supplies aboard which, however, he kept under guard of his men fully armed, so that he could deal to each a moderate supply until the first cravings of hunger were satisfied, compelling all to eat slowly and drink slowly until they became able to govern themselves. He put enough supplies onboard to last them to Philadelphia, where they were bound - and explained their position as being just off the mouth of the Delaware.

I am related to the Thomas Fitzsimons signer of the Constitution. My grandfathers grandmothers maiden name was Fitzsimons. Look it up!

Hi all, My name is Paul Fitzsimons.
not doing any research at the moment. But I'm Irish, my family home is in Co.Westmeath, and we still own the family home.

I'm now moved on, now living in Florida, working all over the states - so always interested in good Fitzsimons stories.

My great grandfather and his family emigrated from Omagh (Cappagh Parish), County Tyrone in 1880. They settled in Toronto and in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. His name was Henry James Fitzsimons. His wife was Annie STEVENSON. Their children were: Henry, John Thomas, William, Catherine, Charles (my grandfather), Annie, Robert, and George. John Thomas went to the States. He had a son Harry T. FitzSimons who was a music publisher in Chicago. I would love to make contact with any relatives of this family.

My grandmother's name was Bertha Florence Fitzimons (1874). Her father was John (1852), her mother Mary (1851), brother Harry (1879) died in Nevada (1975), her sister, Lula (1877). All were born in Ohio with the exception of George, he was born in PA. I am looking for descendants of this Fitzimons. If anyone can be of help I would greatly appreciate it. My e-mail address is kdunlap@carollo.com. Thank you for your assistance.

PS. Bertha was married to Samuel Lemuel Dunlap

Edited by author 03-10-2003 02:15 AM
Does anyone have any info on Anthony FitzSimons father of Thomas FitzSimons (who signed the Decl. of Ind.)?? Much appreciated if so...Anthony was married to a Jane ??? in Inc Wicklow, Ire. I believe and had 5 kids all together and moved to America with his bro. and settled in PA

Lizzie,
The "Fitz" part merely means "son of" of probably more accurately "born of" but illegitimacy has absolutely nothing to do with it. That's a popular misconception (pardon the pun). that belief probably arose from the name "Fitzroy" which was allegedly bestowed by Royalty upon illegitimate children of their mistresses.

My fiancee's family isn't very close knit and so he doesn't know where to begin to find out about his family, and one of the things he was told is that the "Fitz" part of the name means 'illegitimate son of' Simon(s)... is this true or not??? And where can I find out more specific information on the family here on the net?

My grandmother, Agnes Cecilia Fitzsimmons, was born in Dalby, Queensland, Australia in 1901.
Her father was Charles Patrick Fitzsimmons, born abt March 1838 in Limerick, and her mother was Elizabeth Bohan (Bowen?) born abt 1862 Leitrim, Ireland. Charles' marriage registration states his parents were Patrick & Bridget, and he was a widower. He was previously married to Harriet Evans in Qld in 1881, she died in 1884, leaving two children, Charles Francis b 1864 and Catherine Ann Alice b 1869. I would love to hear from anyone who may have any info or a connection. I have also heard that Maureen O'Hara fits into the family somehow. I can be reached at cornix@bigpond.net.au.
Here's hoping, Allison.

Hello, I am new at this list and with the search I have started for a friend. Does anyone have a Robert Fitzsimmons born Nov. 12, 1895 in Laclede Co., MO (I believe) and died in St. James, Phelps Co., Mo. on June 25, 1981? I have started this search with nothing other than this date and his wife's name of Cynthia Kincheloe
Thanks for any help
Sharon

Hi Wayne,

Wish you had answered before I left for Ireland. I wanted to go back to Mount Nugent, Cavan to take a picture of Joseph FitzSymonds' tombstone in the old cemetery. Although it rained every one of the 15 days I was there I did manage to clean off the moss and get my picture.

Joseph carved the stone in 1760 for himself and family. He said he was 56 years old at the time. Now if I only could find out how he is connected to me.

Two years ago when I was in Mt. Nugent I was shown the three little houses where the Reillys, Lynchs and FitzSimons lived before they left for the USA ca 1847. Today only the FitzSimons house survives and the people who live behind it were not home.

I was told by a neighbor that there was a FitzSimons family living nearby but I did not have time to visit. A good excuse to go back to Ireland in the next few years!

Rosemary

Well done on an excellent site.

I am interested in any information on Henry Fitzsimmons who was born in Ireland about 1808/09 but moved to Liverpool sometime before 1829. His wife Mary was also born in Ireland about 1812/13 and was 16 when their first child was born aged 16 in Liverpool. Their children were Edward (born about 1829), Mary (1835), Henry (1839), Catherine (1842) and Joseph (my ancestor, 1845).

Edited by author 25-04-2003 11:16 AM
Hi Wayne,

My great grandmother was Mary FitzSimons from Mt. Nugent, Cavan Co, Ireland. She was married in Feb 1832 to James Reilly. I have a copy of their marriage record. Lucky me, Catholics were not allowed to register their marriage until that year and they are #2 in the marriage book.

They came with their brood of kids to New York City during the potato famine.

Just found your site today. Interested in the origin of the family.

Going back to Ireland in five days. Hope my luck lasts, I always have sunny days when I visit Ireland.

If you think we might be related, write to me at Rory70@juno.com. The last time I was in Mr. Nugent the first person I met was a FitzSimons.

Did you know that Maureen O'Hara was really a FitzSimons from Dublin? I used to see her at Church in Westwood, CA. She was beautiful! Usually wore the burret she wore in "The Quiet Man. I have also seen her brother Charles who was an actor in the same movie.

Rosemary

Edited by author 08-04-2003 02:47 AM
Patty,
The extra "m" comes and goes even within the same family at times. I know of several families where a branch of it adopted the extra "m" sometime back (and no-one can remember why). I think also that way back at the time of emmigration from Ireland that a good percentage of people weren't all that literate and often people in offices like shipping clerks wrote down the name how they felt it was spelt. (Sometimes ages were approximated by the same people so don't be put right off if ages don't exactly line up with passenger lists) - Good luck in your research.- Wayne

Love what I've seen so far. Just picked up your email on Rootsweb. Signed up for email. I am a Fitzsimmons. My grandfather used to tell us that he added an extra "m" but never knew if he did or was just kidding. Am just beginning my research on this name. Can't wait to learn more.

Patty

Edited by author 05-04-2003 05:00 PM
The FitzSimons family name and derivitives such as Fitzsimon, Fitzsimonds and Fitzsimmonds are from the same original source and we invite people of those families around the world to exchange information.

You don't have to register to add a message. Just read what's here if you prefer. You can also subscribe to get emails when new messages appear (and unsubscribe). This discussion board is linked from http://www.FitzSimons.info which is a developing resource.
- Wayne FitzSimons , Daylesford Australia