cheapest, best service have it on
wow gold .
so many wonderful things you can enjon it not only cheapest price,best distrubition,all from
wow leveling,
warcraft power leveling
warcraft gold promptly,best service only get it from
wow power leveling
FFXI Gil
Buy FFXI Gil
FFXI Gil Sale
Cheapest FFXI Gil
Buy Cheap FFXI Gil
final Fantasy XI Gil
Cheap FFXI Gil



cheapestwow gold
best distrubition,all fromus wow gold
euro wow gold
world of warcraft gold

I understand the detention part goes to heart of your civil liberties beef. But does the FBI's action fall within the guidelines of the Patriot Act or not?

As far as the amount of money, well, if I'd contributed ten grand to whatever group McVeigh was part of, it would be considered substantial support. So would five grand or five hundred, I suppose.

To say the least, his situation is unpleasant, it may even be unconstitutional, but as of right now, is it unlawful?

"Well, actually, this is America, and it has to be proven both that he sent the money and that he sent it knowing that it would go to fund terrorism. It's not up to the defense, me, you, or anyone else to prove he didn't send it.

He is presumed innocent, and the burden of proof for claims to the contrary falls on his accusors."

Well, actually, he isn't being charged with a crime, so the FBI does not need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt whether he did or did not send the money.

You know there was a huge scandal here in Michigan involving Detroit police and material witnesses. The Detroit cops would essentially arrest and detain pretty much everyone as material witnesses near the scene of important crimes, such as murder. So, say you're out with your friends drinking and you walk out of a bar to see a shooting across the street -- they would arrest you and your friends, and toss you in jail as a material witness (they were literally arresting *anyone* believed to be in the vicinty at the time of a murder).

Imagine how that would look when you can't make it to work on Monday because you're in jail and your boss learns you were arrested as a material witness in a murder case!

They even lost a major lawsuit over the practice (plaintiff won $500K) and kept on doing it. The U.S. prosecutor for the area had to step in and threaten the city with a civil rights lawsuit to stop the practice.

hornsofthedevil wrote:

"Hey, I read today in the NYTimes that this guy actually gave $10,000 to that fraudulent charity."

They better have a *hell of a lot more* than just a $10,000 donation to a fraudulent charity to justify detaining this guy in this manner.

Hey, I read today in the NYTimes that this guy actually gave $10,000 to that fraudulent charity.
I'm sorry, but that sounds a little bit fishy to me. He isn't a millionaire is he? That sort of a sum seems to jibe with supporting terrorists and their expensive cause of building bombs and trying to attain chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

that being said, none of us know the deal with this crazy case. I'm sure there is more evidence that law enforcement is withholding- which is really the beef here. why the secrecy? If he knowingly sent money to terrorists - then lock his animal ass up. why act like the public "can't handle the truth"

Oh and as for the IRA comparison, it doesn't really apply. Yes they are terrorists, but they are contained and being dealt with. The fact is that they never declared war on the united states and seeing that the IRA aren't activley pursuing chemical and biological and NUCLEAR weapons, it is not a valid comparison.

If they're going to lock people up for contributing to terrorist organizations, the IRA had better be on the list. Then we can lock up both Boston AND Scranton.

Yeah, right: prove to me that they DIDN'T send the money.

The bulk of the Patriot Act is about freeing the Feds to bloodhound "terrorist" money trails, so it's not surprising they are. The difference between the Act and Cointelpro, regardless of one's personal opinion, is that Congress approved the Act, whereas Ms. Hoover was mostly just freelancing for political purposes. At least Congress can rescind the Patriot Act. It took God to get rid of Hoover.

Edited by author 04-04-2003 12:09 PM
Jill wrote: FBI is not some huge, unaccountable, monolithic organization. It is composed of people like you and I. Your neighbor could be working for FBI for all you know.

Cointelpro

I knew a guy in Utah who was a domestic FBI "assistant". Went to lots of lefty political meetings to take notes.

Jiil, perhaps you can do some work in tracking down who has donated money to this terrorist organization that is using that money to murder children and civilians:

http://www.soaw.org/

Ah, so you're locking up people who contributed financially to terrorism? Are your prisons big enough for most of the US Government since the 70s? Or have you forgotten about all of the US-sponsored terrorism around the world?

Edited by author 04-04-2003 04:13 AM
> Prove to me that he didn't send the money.

Well, actually, this is America, and it has to be proven both that he sent the money and that he sent it knowing that it would go to fund terrorism. It's not up to the defense, me, you, or anyone else to prove he didn't send it.

He is presumed innocent, and the burden of proof for claims to the contrary falls on his accusors.

As for him being a terrorist: You're a fucking moron. He hasn't been charged with a crime. . .ANY crime. Sure, he might be a terrorist, but so might you, Jill, and right now, the evidence to back up either claim is about equivalent.

Edited by author 04-04-2003 09:54 AM
Jill, you're probably misunderstanding what is meant by calling you a "troll", see an explanation here. However, I don't think you're a troll, I think you are a brainwashed idiot. Shouldn't you be watching FOX "news" right now?

Random, I think you may be right on that one. I think I was a little hasty in my assessment of the situation, but what if he was really a suicide bomber, huh? I think the FBI knows all that, or else they wouldn't have detained him in the first place. Prove to me that he didn't send the money. Oh and boingboin addict, my observation is that you are the troll.

This guy is a US citizen. The constitution protects US citizens from being held without charges.

Even the worst criminals deserve due process. Tim McVeigh had a lawyer, Ted Kazinski had a lawyer, the snipers have a lawyer. This guy isn't accused of anything nearly as dire. Yet this US citizen and an unknown number of other US citizens are being held without charge, without legal representation and in violation of specific provisions of the constitution.

If he committed a crime, charge him. If he didn't release him. Pretty simple.

calling jill a troll isn't an accusation, it's more of an observation.

Mr Taylor, calling someone a trall is pretty low. Can't argue so you start with accusations..

"Jill" wrote: "Call me crazy..."

No - just a troll.

Are you people so brainwashed and paranoid over what FBI does??? Someone has seen too many episodes of X-Files methinks!

FBI is not some huge, unaccountable, monolithic organization. It is composed of people like you and I. Your neighbor could be working for FBI for all you know.

Call me crazy but I trust more FBI than some Palestinian called "Mike" who donates money to terrorist organizations that are using his money to murder children and civilians.

Shame on him!

Jill, you're a fool for thinking that the FBI would detain someone rather than arrest him if they had any credible evidence.

Mr. Jones, FBI already knows he's a terrorist. You're a fool for falling for his cover.

If you have information that he actually *is* a terrorist, you should get in touch with the FBI, Jill.

Just deport the terrorist.

>Good thing he has white friends in high places

Yes its a VERY good thing. Who would you bet has the better chance of taking the USA PATRIOT act to the Supreme Court? A few expensive lawyers backed by an Intel bigwig or some public defender without the backing to even put in a proper appeal?

Sorry, but that's how the US legal system tends to work. Connections, money, and publiciy are simply a means to an end.

"Thousands of people in his situation? Very unlikely."

I agree that it's unlikely that the number is that high. However, we can't even know for sure, because even the number is being claimed as secret by the FBI.

As jleader says, it doesn't really matter if he turns out to be the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, the guy who killed Jimmy Hoffa, and/or the Wicked Witch of the West. Holding people indefinitely without charges - even as "Material Witenesses" whatever the hell that legal fabrication is supposed to be - goes contrary to multiple explicit passages in both the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights. Not only does this sort of thing go directly against both the law and spirit of the USA, but it turns out that there's a *really* good reason why the founding fathers took the time to enshrine those rights in the documents that created this country.

Any real American will certainly be able to establish the importance of those rights on their own. I suggest that anyone who's so scared by a few pissant terrorists that they're willing to sell out core American values should start looking for another country to move to, because living in this country means accepting a responsibility to defend it against all enemies internal and external.

Wasn't Kevin Mitnick held for years without being charged for anything? While that's pretty obivously fucked up, it's not necessarily unconstitutional I think? I think the problem with these Disappearances is the way they are processed outside of the normal legal procedure, so that it is difficult or impossible for the detainee, their lawyers or their loved ones to find out what's going on, or where they're being held. It's all very fascist and Patriot Act II is promising even worse things.

Papaya, it's not a question of judging him one way or the other. If he committed a crime, he should be arrested for that crime, tried, and if convicted, punished. However, our Constitution forbids holding people indefinitely without charges no matter what they are or aren't guilty of. Whether he's guilty of anything or not has no bearing on whether he should be detained indefinitely without being charged.

If he's guilty of something heinous, then perhaps in a sense he deserves what he's getting, but it's still wrong for the government to treat him this way.

Unlikely? Where have you been? Well maybe not thousands, but there were at least hundreds of brown folk arrested a few months ago and detained in nearly the same manner. It was big news amongst the people who actually pay attention to this stuff. If I recall correctly, it was hundreds just in California, where many of them were probably detained because a junior INS employee tossed out stacks of forms because there was too much work to do. Google around for it. Lisa Rein has a lot on her site.

"There's (I believe) thousands of people in his same situation right now, I'm reckon only a small percentage of them are 'guilty'."

If someone's being held as a material witness, by definition they're not being charged with a crime, so they are neither guilt nor not guilty -- just a perceived flight risk.

Thousands of people in his situation? Very unlikely.

Kind of hard to guess at whether he's guilty when he hasn't been charged with a crime...

Good thing he has white friends in high places, otherwise you'd have never heard of him. There's (I believe) thousands of people in his same situation right now, I'm reckon only a small percentage of them are 'guilty'.

It's nice that the guy has friends, but that has no bearing on whether he's actually guilty or not.

Ever notice how pretty much every newspaper article about the arrest of a serial-criminal scumbag includes quotes from family or friends about how he was such a good boy, couldn't possibly have done it, etc.?

I'm withholding judgment on this one for now.

Hawash's story may be getting legs; it got some coverage on a local (Portland) TV news show.

I thought it was interesting that the first article the SF Chron carried referred to him as "Maher Mofeid Hawash" which I imagine is his legal name, and Mike is his commonly used name.

Since one of the many aspects of this event (to me, anyway) is the notion of a binary concept like American-ness being sliced more finely by some, I thought their editorial choice was interesting. Subsequent articles referred to him as Maher "Mike" Hawash.