top bar
QuickTopic free message boards logo
Skip to Messages

TOPIC:

THE RENAISSANCE OF THE TWELFTH CENTURY

^     All messages            4-19 of 19  1-3 >>
19
moomoo
09-04-2006
11:22 PM ET (US)
how did the renaisance start?
18
idrissi
07-08-2005
06:34 PM ET (US)
I NEED GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH WOMAN MY E-MAIL ID:idrissi12345@yahoo.fr
Edited 07-08-2005 06:34 PM
17
basheer
12-23-2003
05:02 AM ET (US)
i need good frind ineed woman open to open heart pls my e-mail id basheer6v@hotmail.com
16
basheer
12-23-2003
04:59 AM ET (US)
hello i need good frindship
15
daryl
11-19-2003
10:28 AM ET (US)
the renaissance was a very important time era.
14
Marissa Bond
04-07-2003
01:24 PM ET (US)
The idea of a balance of power between men and women is almost amusing in its ridiculousness. Economically and in social status, obviously the medieval woman was inferior to the man. However, according to Cappellanus, the woman is inferior in the romantic relationships, too. Although it is the woman who is sought, it appears that she is expected to accept the love of the man. Not only that, but while it is acceptable for the man to go about philandering, the author says, “ God forbid that we should ever declare that a woman who is not ashamed to go wanton with two men should go unpunished.” Women did have some symbolic power, yet only the power of negation – the power to deny the lover “solaces” or such.

On a different note, I have a question with Abelard- is his speculation that God had to have permitted the Devil to tempt man truly a completely new concept? I mean, consider the book of Job…
13
Jess Carlin
04-07-2003
01:18 PM ET (US)
What is the balance if power between men and women?

As with most societies, the balance of power between men and women in the Middle Ages was rather skewed towards the man. Men had could be property owners, fighters and rulers, while women, for the most part, had to be content with staying at home and running the household. Yet as the reader learns in The Art of Courtly Love, the woman has much more power than the man when it comes to love. The author tells the reader that love causes "a rough and uncouth man to be distinguished for his handsomeness; it can cause a man even of the humblest birth with the nobility of character, it blesses the proud with humility..." Being in love creates a better person, and the women with whom the man is in love with is the only one who can create this better individual. The woman also has the power to cause suffering for the man, because the act of merely being is love is to suffer. Once the man begins to lust for the woman, he cannot stop thinking about her, and if she is unattainable, this is the ultimate form of inborn suffering. Although the man may hold the power in matters of the physical, the woman holds the power in matters of emotion and the heart.
12
Ana M. Pardo
04-07-2003
10:53 AM ET (US)
I thought that the concept of Love was inconsistent because it is portrayed as an act of free will yet it is synonym with bonds of obligation. Moreover, undertaking a bond of obligation means choosing to put oneself in danger and sufferance: “For what under heaven can a man posses or own foe which he would undergo so many perils as we continually see lovers submit to of their own free will?”(The Art of Courtly love. page 30) Love means willing to sacrifice what is possessed, even life, to fulfill the sentiment. The concept of love is greatly influenced by Christianity. Sacrifice and free will reminds us of martyrdom and the idea that the greatest love is that of loving God: “honoring the Church is the finest courtesy in which any man may live” (The romance of the wings). Humans’ relation to God determines the possibility of love; love is weakened by “blasphemy against God or His saints, mockery of ceremonies of the Church”(page 155).
11
Emily Rosenberry
04-07-2003
10:42 AM ET (US)
Abelard definitely was writing down new concepts for the church when he rationalized that humans could be both "saved and damned." Also the concept that the Devil has to have God's permission to try to seduce humans is a new and dangerous supposition. Abelard seems to be trying to start deeper debates over the nature of God, sin, and the punishment for sin, and it is no surprise that the church is displeased with his ideas and writings. He refuses to simply accept the traditional doctrines and is intelligent enough to find the most sensitive and volitile subjects for the established church. He can also make a well reasoned case for views that are contrary, even revolutionary, to the current and accepted practices and beliefs of the church. Abelard was a dangerous man for the church because he preferred to question authority rather than blindly swallow established belief.
10
Fearless Leader
04-07-2003
09:41 AM ET (US)

    THIS IS FROM PAT
    I think that Abelard and his way of thinking is way ahead of his time.
He makes me think of the link often referred to of genius being close to
insanity. It is no wonder that he gets into such trouble. He is constantly
challenging the great minds of the church. Such as when he asks How could
the devil take man unless God allowed it? (Tomcat 355 first full paragraph
on the right). Then when he suggests that one can be saved and damned at the
same time. (Tomcat 356 2nd paragraph right side). He is certainly in trouble
when he suggests that God is interested in not what is done but what lies in
the intention, "The same thing is often done by different people, justly by
one and wickedly by another." He again sites the Devil in his document on
Ethics (Tomcat365 triht side) "the devil himself soes nothin except whaat he
is allowed by God to do" Abelards ethics say that love is the fulfilling of
law while Augustine says that grace gives one the ability to love and grace
is the divine gift of God, and God is everything and man poweless. Abelard
seems to think that man's intention has a impact on how God sees him.
9
Julie Bednarski
04-07-2003
07:56 AM ET (US)
Anselm’s prayer to St. Mary and the experience of courtly love:
In his prayers to St. Mary, Anselm expresses an experience in keeping with one of courtly love. Evidence for this is continually woven thought the prayers. It is especially manifest when, like a lover separated from his love, he pleads with Mary for her presence. Anselm describes a love sickness that is as powerful as one belonging to any lover. In fact, one may argue that Anselm’s love is deeper because it transcends the corporal “Desiring to be with you always, my heart is sick with love …if only the spirit within me might come close to the sweetness of your love (322).” Not only does the language of his beseech show love sickness, it contains great praise and celebration of Mary. Anselm, like the lover in conversation with his love, speaks only with hesitation for fear he will he damage his chance for a relationship, “I am very anxious to thank you for so much, but I cannot think of anything worthy to say to you (316).” Anselm’s prayers change to include not only Mary but also the divine. His elation regarding Christ and his mother instantly inspires secretiveness, “Seeing I rejoice and hardly dare speak of it (321).” Much like a lover in fear of scandal, Anselm argues with himself reasoning that he is not worthy to address this divine love. The prayers are dense with longing, praise, beseech (both though begging and reason), intense concern, but most of all love.
8
Lyndsey Schutte
04-06-2003
11:55 PM ET (US)
What is the balance of power between men and women?
As expected in this society and time period, the men generally have more power than the women, in The Art of Courtly Love. For example, the man does not decrease in class when he marries a woman of lower status, but a woman marring a man of lower class will drop down to his class. Also, men can get away with cheating on their lovers at times when women cannot (p 162/282). However, the world of courting does offer a powershift to the woman who is of the same or higher class as the guy and who is attractive. If a such a woman can get a guy 'hooked', she can have a certain power over him and manage, with a much thought and a little purfume, to get him to give her whatever she wants. It's a rather small window of oppurtunity in the grand scheme of things, but for a clever and pretty enough woman, it is enough to get what she wants.
7
Sarah Pagni
04-06-2003
11:27 PM ET (US)
What is liberality and courtesy?
 Liberality and courtesy are the two wings of love, traits that a knight can be recognized by. For one to be a knight they must posses these two branches of characteristics or they are not upholding the values of the knights.
 The wing of liberality boils down to generosity. A person with liberality will not look upon his possessions or the value of his land; he will make friends with both the rich and the poor; he will keep his promises; he gives freely and liberally and will not change his mind in his decisions. He is also brave. The wing of liberality makes sure that the knight is a good person who is not out for personal gain, but rather wants to help others. A generous person is thinks of others before themselves and will be a good lover because they will think of the wishes and needs of their beloved.
 The wing of courtesy also upholds the honor of the knight. It keeps the knight in check. He will not be proud or envious of others. He looks out for the well being of others and will not let a lady be slandered by others. He is also religious, and that his first and most pure love will be that of God, and will respect the church. Courtesy is very important in a love because you see how they treat other people and see themselves. A love that is courteous will uphold his honor and that of their beloved.
6
Alexandra Polly
04-06-2003
11:23 PM ET (US)
In Chapter IV : How Love May Come to an End the idea of how love ends is explored. The reasons stated form love comming to an end are if one of the lovers breaks faith with the other, if one of the lovers has a lot of money and does not come to the aid of the other who is in great need, when a new love begins, or if he is found to go astray from the Catholic religion. These reasons strike me as very interesting, especially the one stating that love can come to and end when one person decides to go 'astray from the Catholic religion'. Focusing on the religious aspects of the class I begin to wonder what kind of social pressures were involved in the formation of this text? What was to gain from the readers and authors of this manuscript involving love and one way of its end being related to the Catholic church?
5
Leslie Strongwater
04-06-2003
09:46 PM ET (US)
 Love is a many splendid thing. Though quite literally, in “The Art of Courtly Love,” it was seen as a deep wound, which inflicts one’s self to no avail. It is suffering until the love is reciprocated. Meantime, it is a compilation of fears. And even when love is requited, fear never dies. Proper love exists only in a heterosexual relationship. Love ripens around a specific age (say 18 for males) and apparently, once people reach a certain age (this differs depending on gender) their passion begins to die. Love increases with jealousy and fear. It only blossoms in private. There seems to be a method of acquiring love. It is not seen as something that is spontaneous; rather, it is a system (or sickness) which follows a rather logical progression with rules (or symptoms) some exceptions, offering advice solely to men. In the words of Helena from A Midsummer –Night’s Dream, “We cannot fight for love, as men may do; We should be woo’d and were not made to woo.”
4
Anna KwonPerson was signed in when posted
04-06-2003
09:39 PM ET (US)
Re: Love as a sickness
Building on Sarah's post about courtly love, love is suffering besides the "excessive meditation" due to the inherent inequality of love. If equality existed, there would be no cause for fear of unreturned (or unequal)love, no jealousy, suspicion, or even the risk of putting yourself at bodily harm for the sake of proving your love.
In addition to the "chains of desire" already mentioned, the images and metaphors for love form an entirely new world, with different gods, rulers and laws. In courtly love, Venus is the goddess supreme. She reigns over all through the court of Love, wherein the "King of Love" makes sure to enforce the rules of love (p.291). However, these were more than just images and metaphors: it is interesting to note that there was truly a "court of love" that existed in this age! Eleanor of Aquitaine, the Countess of Champagne, Lady Ermengarde of Narbonne, and the Countess of Flanders are just a few examples of the women who presided and passed judgment on lovers in the court of love.
^     All messages            4-19 of 19  1-3 >>

Print | RSS Views: 2273 (Unique: 1424 ) / Subscribers: 0 | What's this?