Well, there's Romans 9:14-16, "What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy."

Related to that is Isaiah 55:8-9, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." It doesn't address forgiveness directly, but helps to keep us humble when we think we know exactly how God will behave.

There is Jesus forgiving those who are killing him, as they are doing so and not after some act of repentance. There is the thief on the cross. Arguably he is repentant, but it points out that we can't know what goes on between a person and God in the moment of death. An old Spanish proverb comes at the same thing in saying, "There's a long way between the well and the water." It is referring to a person committing suicide, indicating that we can't know what a person does in their final moments, even seconds of life.

And of course there is Jesus telling the disciples to forgive 70x7...reminding us that no matter what God decides to do, our job is to forgive.

So those are some other directions to go.

Yep, I'll definitely use your answer (I hear this question every year). My only hesitation is that I like to answer questions by referring back to the Bible. As a background theme I have going, I'm trying to convince the kids that they need to know what the Bible says on a topic. They are going to hear conflicting guidance from reliable sources and I don't want them to take someone's word on what is right and wrong, truth or lie; I want them to go find out for themselves. So when they ask the question, 'Does God really send people to Hell', I like to also refer them to the Bible. My limited education brings me to the separation of the sheep and goats. I'll couch the reading by explaining your thoughts on our decisions moving us closer or further from God, but I think the reading is a must. Do you have other readings you think more/better/equally appropriate?

Roy,

An answer for Sunday School that is both "safe" and true is that 1. God is good and loves us. 2. God wants us to learn to be loving and good ourselves and gave us laws to show us how. 3. The God who loves us is our ultimate judge. Both vengeance and mercy are God's decisions, not ours. Our job is to love God, love others, love ourselves, and do our best. If we mess up, apologize, repent, make amends and try to do better. If someone hurts you, don't hold a grudge or strike back. Get help if you need it and turn it over to God.

"So will God send Osama bin Laden to hell?" they ask. "I don't know," I would answer. "That's up to God. God certainly wouldn't be happy about what he did. God will decide what is best."

Happy teaching!

Whew! Quite an answer. Thanks for taking so much time. I have way too many questions to get into it all here (and I don't think this is the right forum for a detailed discussion). I look forward to the topic emerging "again and again".

The thing that makes me feel most uncomfortable right now is that I may answer a question from one of my Sunday School students differently then you would. I'll do my best to let them know your position as best I understand it when that happens.

Roy, thanks for the note. I didn't post the piece from this past Sunday because of copyright issues and because I didn't yet figure out how to convey the music that went inbetween the spoken parts.

In any case, the book is Good Goats: Healing Our Image Of God by Dennis Linn. The main point of the book as a whole is that Christians have often been guilty of imagining God to be and do things that we would be horrified at in human behavior. We often have this message of "God loves you so much that God came in Jesus to die for you. And if you don't believe it, God will send you to hell to burn for eternity."

No matter what a person has done, the sin is limited in scope because we are human beings who are mortal...limited. Eternal punishment for limited sin doesn't even stand up to the "eye for an eye" Old Testament standard, let alone the "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing" standard set by Jesus.

In general, I think we have trouble imagining how God's justice and mercy can go together, and so we tend to jump on one bandwagon or another. Some go with "cheap grace," (do what you want and God will forgive you) while others are focused on the details of the law and if you cross a certain line you're done in, no matter what.

I agree that we pay too little attention to the standards God has set out for us. The question for me becomes how God's law is presented. You will not see me presenting them in a "Do this or else" style. That's not how God presented the Law to Israel. It was offered as a sign of the covenant, which Israel was free to either accept or reject.

Israel freely bound themselves to God's Law as a response to God's liberating action in freeing them from Egypt. I want to preach God's law in the same way...as the terms of the covenant we take upon ourselves when we respond to what God has done for us in Jesus. Israel broke the covenant many, many times...as has the Church. And yet the Bible is always returning to the promise of restoration. There is punishment and discipline, yes, but those are not ultimate. The recurring theme is restoration, streams in the desert, a new covenant that will be easier to keep.

Coming at it from another angle, it is the same reason that John Wesley opened the Communion table to everyone. He believed (as do I) that it was in experiencing the love and acceptance of God in the height of our sinfulness that we really came to understand what God's grace is all about, and that a changed life is the response to forgiveness, not a condition for it.

Of course it's a huge topic and one that will emerge again and again. Thanks for raising it!

Hi Anne. I was hoping to find the words you read between songs last week. I think it was the middle reading, from some book.....the story where the mother is picturing how she hopes her son will greated by God should he die without repentence. What was the message the story was trying to convey? It sounded like, 'it doesn't matter what you do in life because God loves you so much he will forgive you anyway'.

In what I think is a related comment, a few sermons ago, "Leaving It All", you wrote, "God was love not fear; freedom not law". OK, but to do God's will you need to follow God's law. I feel that is too often ignored; people end up making up their own laws; in effect creating their own God.

I hope my questions/comments aren't too cryptic. I'm trying to keep it short and not preach to a preacher.

erm me again :)

think I found an answer to one question I asked you

"in the next several weeks, we will be looking at what the Bible calls the "fruit of the Spirit." ... that sounds at least like you had a series of sermons on a topic rather than the lectionary readings. cool

a thought for Betsy

I always found it hard in Job that he lost all his children and yet it says God blessed him more than before.

I thought for a long time that if I lost my kids (I have two teenagers) that nothing God could give me could replace them, or bless me more.

but

I'm coming to that place that God does know best and I can trust Him even with my family.

Does that make any sense?

haven't been here before. Thanks for stoppping by my place Anne.

Can I ask do you follow the lectionary? and are the commenters usually people from your congregation?

Lorna // see-through faith

Edited by author 08-01-2005 09:32 PM
It's always a toss up for me whether to go with Matthew's version of the temptations with the kindly angels or the darker ending in Luke's version where Satan merely backs off "until a more opportune time." It seems the temptation to take the easy way out is repeated later in Jesus' ministry when Peter tells Jesus to quit talking about dying, and Jesus says, "Get behind me, Satan." Was that the "more opportune time"? Was it in Gethsemane? The mystery of the Luke passage always intrigues me. But then I like the angels, too. They're probably grateful Jesus didn't do the jumping off the temple thing!

Thank you for your comments.

Thanks for posting your sermons. I always disliked missing sermons (particularly every time I taught Sunday School) and this gives me a way around that problem.

Speaking of Sunday School, I have often used Jesus' temptations as a lesson. Now I have more I can bring into the lesson. Thanks. Teaching older students, if I have one point I try to get across to them is that they need to read the scriptures themselves. The temptations helped me make that point by pointing out that even the devil will use scripture to mislead people. And unless they know the whole story for themselves, they too can be easily mislead. Then I love how the angels do come and tend to Jesus, just as the scripture the devil quoted said they would. They just did it in God's time, after Jesus passed the temptations. Not what would have been Jesus' time if he had jumped.

Ref.: Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The worst three lies I have heard in my life time were said to justify wars. They are:

1. The incident which triggered World War II was the fake, simulated attack by the Germans on their own radio station near Gleiwitz on the Polish border. To make it appear that the attacking force consisted of Poles, condemned German criminals from a nearby concentration (protective custody) camp were dressed in Polish uniforms then shot and their bodies placed in strategic positions around the radio station. A Polish-speaking German then did a broadcast from the station to make it appear that Poland had attacked first.


2.
Media Beat (7/27/94)

By Norman Solomon

Thirty years ago, it all seemed very clear.

"American Planes Hit North Vietnam After Second Attack on Our Destroyers; Move Taken to Halt New Aggression", announced a Washington Post headline on Aug. 5, 1964.

That same day, the front page of the New York Times reported: "President Johnson has ordered retaliatory action against gunboats and 'certain supporting facilities in North Vietnam' after renewed attacks against American destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin."

But there was no "second attack" by North Vietnam — no "renewed attacks against American destroyers." By reporting official claims as absolute truths, American journalism opened the floodgates for the bloody Vietnam War.

A pattern took hold: continuous government lies passed on by pliant mass media...leading to over 50,000 American deaths and millions of Vietnamese



3
. In Baghdad, Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan yesterday denied reports Iraq is trying to collect materials for nuclear weapons and building up sites once targeted by U.N. weapons inspectors. He told the Associated Press that such claims were "lies" by the United States and Britain to justify an attack on his country.
  
"There is no such a thing. They are telling lies and lies to make others believe them." He predicted the "whole world" will oppose the United States if it attacks. [Sept. 9 2002 The Washington Post]
 ----------------------------------------------
My comment: War mongers need to be liars. The bigger the lie, the more people are likely to believe it.

Helmut

Thou Shall Not Kill,

I strongly agree, that politics must be a concern for every Christian and also a concern for the church.

I also think as Ann said in her sermon, that the commandment thou “shall not kill”
Is a very complicated matter.

In this universe life exists always at the expense of other life.

But that does not apply in the case of capital punishment. Here a life is deliberately taken without saving any other life or for that matter benefiting anybody.
It has long been agreed by virtually all sociologists that capital punishment does not reduce the murder rate. The only justification we can bring is, that justice demands that a person is to be put to death.

But justice is not at the apex of moral values.

 Most of us heard the story of the young girl who asks a wise old rabbi, whether God does pray. His answer: :” O yes, God prays every morning :
‘ May my mercy and grace be always greater than my desire for justice.’ ”

About two weeks ago the US Supreme Court decided 4 to 5 that the death penalty for persons under the age of 18 is cruel and unusual.

I sighed a breath of relief: Finally!!!

But it is not an occasion to shout for joy, because:

· Ours was the last country in the world which outlawed capital punishment for minors.
· The 5 to 4 decision – with the Chief Justice among the 4 who voted against banning the death penalty for minors - is shameful.
· The ruling still leaves the American Justice System by far the cruelest among all the nations which Bush claims that they share our values.
· We are the only one among the above mentioned countries which has the death penalty.. In all the 25 countries of the European Union it is outlawed. Russia has abolished it. Mexico has no death penalty and Canada does not have it either. And now Turkey is outlawing it too, to make the country eligible to join the EU.
· We still execute mentally ill people which is also a violation of human rights.
· Our justice system violates human rights is many other ways;
· Minors as young as 11 years old can be prosecuted as adults and given a life sentence without a chance of parole.
· If we add to the sad list the shenanigans the present administration uses to circumvent American and international law in its fight against terrorism , than it is small wonder when the world scoffs whenever our leaders talk about human rights or “our values”.

As followers of Christ we have the duty to speak out in matters like these. As we judge others, God will judge us.

  
                 Ich bin Leben,
                 Das leben will,
               Inmitten von Leben,
                Das leben will.
                                                  [Albert Schweitzer]


                  I am life
             Which wills to live
             In the midst of life
             Which wills to live.


More than 50 years ago, in a bookstore in East Germany, I came across a small book with the title :
Ehrfurcht vor dem Leben - Leben im Sinne Albert Schweitzers
Reverence for Life - Living in accordance with the spirit of Albert Schweitzer

I have read this little book repeatedly, because it summarizes – like no other book I have ever read, how I, as follower of Christ, ought to live.

Thank you Anne for yesterdays sermon.

Helmut and Helga

Betsy, I certainly don't think that loving children or spouse or family is a violation of God's commandments, and didn't mean to imply that. What I do think, though, is that God is to be our first allegiance and having love of God at the top, keeps our other loves balanced below. Like buttons on a shirt, everything is messed up if we don't get the top one right.

Here's an example of how things might play out. Suppose a child gets to adulthood and for whatever reason decides he/she wants nothing to do with God. Furthermore, he (just so I don't have to keep typing he/she) is so bothered by all things religious that he refuses to even speak to any family member that still claims to worship God...he won't even walk into their house. What do you do? And what would be both the short and long-term consequences of what you decide?

I am not a parent and can't speak from that experience. But I can speak as a child of a mother who taught me faith. Let's say some terrorist group captured me and my mother. Someone holds the sword at my throat and tells my mother that I will be beheaded unless she renounces her faith. It's hard to speculate about extreme things without actually being in them, but my prayer is that my final words would be "Mother, without your faith, I have no life to keep." ...or something to that effect. I would be horrified if my mother renounced her faith to save my life.

In a strange way, I feel I love my family more because I love God most. I love God in and through them, and knowing I am doing that makes the love more complete...both my love for God and my love for them. If the thing that receives my ultimate love is mortal, I am lost when they are lost. Of course any parent is lost to a certain degree when they lose a child, I'm not saying that any of this is easy. It's just that giving our greatest allegiance to any human being is a setup for tyranny and tragedy.

Ultimately, of course, we have to work out all these things for ourselves. God is patient and loving and understanding of even the greatest and deepest struggles of our lives. As I also said in that sermon, most of us (including me) are breaking the first commandment long before we get to the issue of family members. For myself, at least, God allows me to work my way up from the small things to the big things. I think by the time we get everything else in our lives ordered enough that the only thing in our lives that ever usurps the place of God is a family member, we'll be pretty darn close to perfect...and therefore much better able to see and understand what God is asking.

In the meantime, I'm just trying to dethrone my computer!

Helmut and Helga's comment relates to that sermon also, and my intention is to respond to the Abraham question on my Bible for Thinkers blog, so watch for it there in the next few weeks.

Just before your vacation, you slipped into your sermon that we are supposed to love the Lord our God with all our heart souls and strength, even more than we love our children and our husbands. I think you timed it so that you could make a fast getaway. Is it total blasphemy that I have a problem with that concept? I truly can't imagine loving anything more than I love my children; the purity and unconditional nature of this love feels truly God given and precious in a way that no other love seems to be. They are the purpose God has given me. Tell me how that is a violation of His commandments. I thought "Love God, Love one another" had me covered when I began loving my family more than anything I have ever loved.