Awesome inputs. Thanks so much to everyone. I'm going to try and let the horse rest in peace tonight; just make a couple of clarifications about my own thoughts.

Windy, I didn't mean to allude that education is a key to understanding. You make a great point in that the Pharisees knew all the words, but totally missed the meaning. My point was that I think there is less of a chance for SpiritSong to go too far off track even if she doesn't believe all that she reads in the Bible because she is so well grounded. My fear (and reason for bringing this up at all) is less knowledgeable folks, following her lead and choosing what to believe, without a good basis for making good choices, will end up creating a false god in their image (sorry, I'm getting close to hitting that horse again).

Still Learning, that name fits all of us and your input helps. Welcome to the discussion. Don't hold back. Maybe some day we can try to address some of the things you see as contradictions in the Bible. I'm not seeing the contradictions, even in your example. But I'm not good enough to adequately explain in a few written sentences. I think discussion is needed.

Finally, I don't like to try to speak for someone else. But I'm going to assume that some might view me as a "Bible Idolater" too. It is not that I'm idolizing the Bible. It is the Bible that first and foremost tells me about the God I do worship. If I start to dismiss some of the words, I believe I start to chip away at what God's true nature really is. Maybe Windy can explain it better?

Ready or not, I am going to weigh in on this discussion. I have not posted anything yet; but, I do read all of these discussions. Seeking The Truth was encouraging me to contribute to the discussion (so be patient and kind!).

I have learned a lot from SpiritSong and Seeking The Truth. I have such a deep respect for both of you that when I disagree with either of you, I really need to "check myself" first. I know that I have a long way to go but here is where I stand on this topic right now:

I think it is impossible to believe everything in the Bible. There are definitely contradictions in the Bible. When you find one, you need to choose one answer or you need to interpret both based upon your own experiences and beliefs. Therefore, you are not actually believing everything in the Bible. To me, it is not absolute -- or perhaps I am just too logical.

For me, it is such a gift to be told that it is OK to interpret the Bible. I grew up in a Catholic Church being told that if I didn't do X,Y,Z (even simple things that are normal, childish things to do) then I'd go to hell. Deep down inside of my heart, even as a child, even though I had not read the Bible, I could not believe that was God's destiny for me. And so, the contradictions began at a very early age for me...

My feeble attempts at reading the Bible were always halted by a) not understanding the language that I was reading b) being so confused by contradictions, parables, etc. that I would abandon the readings (and eventually the church altogether). So, which is worse, losing people completely or giving them some freedom to learn and grow into the person that God wanted them to become even if they did not agree with your interpretation of the Bible at the time? I can tell you that the person I've become based on the priest's interpretation of the Bible is not the person that I think God really wants me to be. I don't think he wants me to be afraid to make a move and enjoy life because I might make a mistake and go to hell. I think he wants me to have a voice -- which was discouraged by my priests' interpretations of the Bible and is encouraged by the UMCW members' interpretations of the Bible -- yet another gift!

To me, I think the Bible serves as a) a historical record of events that may or may not have been written/translated by humans accurately and b) yet another method for God to teach us, especially those of us who do not have spiritual gifts that allow us to "hear" him on a frequent basis.

I go back to the Bible to try to apply God's teachings to my everyday life and current events. That is where the real value of the Bible comes for me -- if I can read His Word and talk about it but not live it, then IMO the Bible is not accomplishing God's purpose. Applying God's Word this way causes me to have even more contradictions to deal with. For example, if I am trying to determine how I feel about Israel waging war on Hezbollah, do I go with the New Testament passages about loving everyone, even your enemies or do I go with the Old Testament passages when God specifically told the Jews to fight for their land - they were his chosen people? See...to me, now you are automatically into interpretation -- which passage (an event or lesson or both) takes precedence and why?

Without the freedom to explore these different possibilities, I feel like I would fall back into the quagmire of contradiction, guilt and fear, lack of a voice and eventually, abandon my studies again.

One specific question for WindSong -- isn't saying that you are a Bible idolator exactly what God does not want? Worshipping anything as an idol, even the Bible, can become a problem.

Windy, you've got a great perspective...thanks for your posting. I didn't mean to suggest there are different truths, just that there are different ways to express the same truth. One way is to say it in facts. Another is to imply it through metaphor (The kingdom of God is like...) Another is to evoke it emotionally through story and poetry or song.

Ultimately, I am a Christian because I don't believe that "truth" is a set of facts. I believe that "truth" is a being...God revealed in Jesus Christ. When Pilate asks Jesus, "What is truth?" Jesus is silent because it's not an academic answer. The truth is standing there in front of him. It's not a "what" but a "who." Jesus says, "I am the truth."

So, if truth is a being, then the way to understand truth is through relationship with that being. Which is why I think Jesus says (along with other Rabbi's both before and since) that Loving God and loving neighbor as onesself is the key to all of it.

And as one of those sidelines...I think that love of God, neighbor, self formula is an expression of the Trinity. Love of God is love of Father, love of neighbor is love of Jesus (in the "least of these") and love of self is love of the Holy Spirit within us.

Thanks, both of you for keeping up the great dialogue!

Windy is fine provided that you are not thinking I am long-winded
or full of hot air! (just joshing)

You are right about moving off the topic. It's so easy to start
moving off in many different directions. You wouldn't believe how
much I deleted from my last post that kept going off into a kazillion
different directions. I'm probably still going to do it!

You are welcome to keep from burying the horse as long as you feel a need to
...not a problem. I will try to stay on track and list exactly what I believe to be true hoping it helps you:

1) I am by my own admission a bible idolator. (so for me it is not OK
not to believe all of it). I believe it is the absolute inspired Word of God. I don't believe it would still be in print
after all this time if God was not the Master-Mind of this Book.

2) Spiritsong: I cannot believe that there are DIFFERENT truths...since
that would cause confusion. God does not create confusion; humans do.

3) Seeking: Several times now you have alluded to education as being a
key to understanding. I do not believe that is a consideration when reading or "studying" scripture. God is not a respector of persons, He gives to each as He chooses. (NOT a personal shot here Spiritsong, but
having a bachelor's or master's degree does not mean a person is given a
better understanding of Scripture). Understanding the Word is a gift from
God and he can give it to whom he chooses. Remember when Jesus came, the
well-educated didn't get it; the Word was understood by fishermen, tax-collectors and sinners. God opens the eyes and ears of those he chooses
to.

4) Seeking: I would suggest that you trust your own conscience and be
content with believing on the Word as absolute truth and find peace in that
since that appears to be the direction the Spirit is leading you to.

5) My opinion: We don't need proof, we need faith. We need to build-up
and not tear down.

It's not dismissing Scripture...it's saying that there is more than one kind of truth. (And yes, Wesley put Scripture first because it was the most important, but it was the other pieces that allowed him to finally overrule Paul's comments about women and allow women to preach. Bad move, some would say!)

Why is it okay for Jesus to teach truth by relating non-factual stories (i.e. parables) and it's not okay for the Old Testament writers to do the same? If Paul is writing to address the culture of his time when he addresses slaves and masters (rather than condoning slavery), why can't Old Testament writers also be seen to have cultural elements that aren't universal truths?

I guess the bottom line is that I believe the Bible is much, much more than a compendium of facts, just like Hamlet is much, much more than a collection of words. All the depth and richness is lost if it can only mean what it says on the surface.

I don't think the horse is breathing anymore...

Hi Windy (if I may be informal),

All good points and nothing I disagree with. But I haven't yet finished beating the dead horse on whether or not it is OK to choose not to believe parts of the Bible (my apologies to all who want me to move on). Please feel free to jump in on this.

We seem to have gotten a little off topic. We went from discussing if the Bible is true to discussing the search for truth; two different things. Getting back to if the Bible is true, SpiritSong makes good points but not completely on topic. I think John Wesley's four-way test is right on. I don't believe he randomly decided to consider scripture first in his process. That supports that he probably wouldn't so easily decided not to believe parts of Bible. And the Bible itself corrects where the laws of Moses became outdated (for lack of a better word). I'm certainly not for taking any one line from the Bible and holding it up as absolute truth. One could probably justify almost anything by doing that.

The points where I picked on SpiritSong for openly saying the Bible is wrong have mostly been simple events then truths. The Bible said something happened or that God said/did something and SpiritSong isn't buying it. I'm assuming her rationale comes from one of the last two of Wesley's test, reason and/or experience. I'd rather have faith in the Word of God (which I believe the Bible is) than in my reasoning power or experiences that can be misleading. Certainly reasoning and experiences are necessary to reach a deeper understanding, but they should not be used to contradict what the Bible says (as a whole). And again, SpiritSong doing not believing is less dangerous than other less educated folks. But I fear what the less educated might conclude when they hear the educated dismiss something the Bible says.

Hello Seeking,
My opinion or interpretation regarding the law is that we are talking
about two sets of laws. First, the law of Moses which entails all the
rules and regs about animal sacrifices, how materials are to be used, what foods can and cannot be eaten etc. The traditions of the people
of the old testament. This law (imo) ended with the death of Christ and
his resurrection.
The Law of God,the Ten Commandments as we know them, is the law
that is never-ending. The first three teach us how to Love God; the remaining seven teach us how to love our neighbor.

The truths about human nature in the old testament do not end. Human nature and it's propensity to sin never changes. What was immoral in the OT is still immoral in the NT.

The difference as I see it in judgment, is that the OT stoned people to
death for their sins. Jesus in the NT teaches us that from now on, we
do not make judgments on others; we leave it up to God.

Edited by author 07-24-2006 10:10 PM
Well, the Bible is one of the key places where I learned the nature of God through Jesus. The other places are my own experience of God, and the experience of God as related by others throughout history.

John Wesley, who founded the Methodist movement, had a four-way test to make decisions about what was right and true (no, he was not a Rotarian!). The four things he considered were: Scripture, Tradition (meaning of the church), Reason, and Experience. We call that system the Quadrilateral, and it is a part of UMC doctrine. While other denominations look only to Scripture, we recognize that killing children for sassing their parents is not something that we should be doing, even though the Law of Moses commands it. We recognize that there is nothing inherently wrong with mixing cotton and linen, even though the Law of Moses forbids it. And, with the first disciples at the Council of Jerusalem, we don't believe that you have to be circumcised and keep the kosher food laws to be a Christian, even though the law is quite plain that God wants that from God's people. Those things don't pass the reason and experience parts of the test.

As a denomination, we believe that working out truth isn't easy or black and white. It's about a living relationship with a living God, who has changed His mind in the past and could do so again. But it is a loving and forgiving God, who is patient with our bumbling, as a loving parent is patient when a toddler falls to the floor again and again as she learns to walk.

So, just reading what God once thought provides some important clues about what God values, but keeping in touch with what God is currently doing is just as important...and perhaps more so. That's how Gentiles came into the faith, after all...because the disciples paid attention to what God was actually doing and blessing right then, rather than relying solely on what God said centuries (even millennia) earlier.

I think truth is bigger than just facts...and things like stories and fables can be true without being factual at all. Ditto for poetry and song. I think we limit the way God can work in our lives by insisting that something can only be true if it is literally and factually accurate.

I absolutely agree that kids need to read (and therefore to interpret) the Bible for themselves. That includes interpreting what sort of truth each passage offers. For example, I met a man in Florida once who thought that having church was wrong. His reasoning was that Jesus said he was present "when two or three are gathered." So the man took that very literally and figured that only two or three could gather for it to count. Four or more and Jesus was outta there. Most of us use our reasoning capacity when reading that verse and figure that Jesus meant AT LEAST two or three, because it doesn't make any sense from what we know of Jesus in other places that it would be limited.

There's a huge difference between blowing something off and seriously engaging Scripture to see what sort of truth it offers. It could be truth for all time. It could be truth for that time (women...who weren't educated in religion at the time...shouldn't preach). It could be metaphorical truth (the kingdom is like a pearl...not that it's round and hard, but it's a metaphor) or the kind of truth that is deep in the stories of creation. To me that's a fascinating and deeply satisfying (both spiritually and intellectually) journey. I couldn't really meet God until I was willing to leave the words on the page and look for God in the flesh.

Not that children are given all that complexity right off the bat. Jesus says that all the law and the prophets are summed up in loving God and loving our neighbors as ourselves. If we taught all our children (not to mention the adults!) to do that, we'd be golden.

OK, so we are both using the Bible as the measuring stick (assuming that is where you learned the nature of God as revealed in Jesus, as well as Jesus’ teachings). It is nice to start off on common ground. And I won’t argue that interpretation is required. But I would argue that it is more than just a difference in interpretation on whether or not God ordered the death of multitudes. But I won’t argue that today. What is more important to me is so openly not believing what the Bible says. Someone as educated as you can probably get away with questioning things as you do because you have such a good grasp of the “important” truths. But for those not as educated it is much better for them to believe everything than “picking and choosing”. I guess this is so important to me because a main theme of my Sunday School classes is that the kids need to read the Bible for themselves so they will know first hand what the truth is (not relying on someone else to tell them what the truth is because some people will lie or at least make mistakes). If we plant in their minds that the Bible is wrong (or may be wrong), that will be one more reason for them to blow it off or to blow off some important teachings as being a part that isn’t quite true.

I’ll end this with a few verses from Matthew Chapter 5: Jesus speaking:
17. "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
18. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

My e-mail has been down for three days, so I've just gotten both of these. First question first. My measuring stick is the nature of God as revealed in Jesus, as well as Jesus' summary of all the law and the prophets in the Great Commandment--to love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

In the larger sense, for me it is not so much IF I believe what is said, but HOW I interpret the truth of what is said. Yes, it leaves me open to messing up, and I have on numerous occasions. But since I believe the true nature of God is revealed in Jesus, I know he'll forgive my honest mistakes. Taking it literally is also an interpretation, since there is no prologue to the Bible that instructs us to do that. Not to mention the fact that just translating the Bible into English involves interpretation, since not all Greek or Hebrew words have a definitive English equivalent.

Question from the sermon, "Apart from the Law". How do we know when we have accepted God's gift of forgiveness? Or maybe the question is, how do we accept God's gift? Does accepting make a noticable change in my life? What if I can't see the change (which brings me back to, how do I know I accepted God's gift?)?

I don't necessarily expect a clean, clear answer. I just wanted to get the question out there and see what happens. Why can some people stand up and say with certainty "yup, I'm saved" and I can't. What am I missing?

The link that tells me when a message has been posted has stopped working. So my apologies for having to go back a month to comment. SpiritSongs response on 6/20....if I paraphrase, am I correct that you are saying that if someone reads something in the Bible that they disagree with, it is OK to simply not believe it? I fully understand the difficulty of picturing Jesus (God) ordering the death of mulitudes. And I realize one doesn't want to judge God, so all that is left is to believe and trust (figuring you don't understand the whole picture) or disbelieve and then make God into an image of your own liking (please note I am using "your" generically, I don't mean you). I don't feel qualified to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe. What if I pick wrong? I'd rather risk believing the whole thing (and just not understanding portions of it, but I'm trying). Is not picking and choosing the qualities of God the same as creating a false idol? To me the Bible is the only sure source of truth. It is my measuring stick. What are you using as a measuring stick to decide what is true and what is not? Playing the Bible against itself doesn't seem like a reliable method; how does one know which side to choose?

Seeking,

Hmmm...I'm not sure why you had trouble finding it. I just looked and on the main page there's the yellow link that says "Read or listen to recent sermons" When you click that link, the most recent sermon is listed first. On the My sermons tab, the link in red "Most recent sermons in text and audio" also takes you to the same page. Maybe you've bookmarked another page that has a link I haven't changed? Anyway, sorry you had trouble.

I love the Elijah stories...he is a big deal, and he is too often relegated to Sunday School where we just send him off to heaven in that fiery chariot.

We'll probably never agree on the slaughter part. If Jesus is God in the flesh, then the nature of Jesus is the nature of God. And I just don't see Jesus ordering the slaughter of hundreds of people, no matter how idolatrous they were. He might have overturned their altar with a whip of cords, but I don't see him ordering the killing.

Hi Anne,

I had a hard time finding this week's sermon. It is not under "My Sermons" or under "Discussion" and "Please click here to read last week's sermon" Just thought I'd let you know.
But I did find it and I have a few comments. In order as they came to mind while I was reading (Sermon titled "Contest on Mt Carmel"):
- I couldn't agree more that Elijah is big deal in the Bible. Not just because he is the only person (I think) that got to go to Heaven without dying first. But he is the only person (again I think) that is predicted to return to the Earth (to introduce the World to the Messiah) and Jesus himself confirms that he did come back (in the from of John the Baptist). With all those unique characteristics, I'm kind of surprised we don't hear more about him and I'm glad you spent some time on him.
- I didn't like the comparison of what Elijah did on Mt Carmel to "the stunts by Houdini and others". I think I understand what your point was. But I think that makes it too easy for someone to interpret your meaning that it was a "stunt" and not an actual miracle performed by God.
- I thought you were a little hard on Elijah for the killing of the prophets of Baal. I think it likely God told him to do that. It would be consistent with God's orders (as Israel is trying to establish itself) for them to kill off all the other people who worship other gods. Israel didn't listen and they were led astray because they didn't kill them all off. Solomon's only vice was that he didn't listen to that commandment. He married wives with other religious backgrounds and ended up creating alters for other Gods and condemning his children's reign. Now don't think I'm a proponent of ethnic cleansing. I am not. I'm just saying what was going on back then and Elijah shouldn't be found at fault for following God's lead. But as you said, it didn't work. Fortunately through God's grace we have another chance through Jesus and the new covenant.
- Finally, I love the parts of the sermon about what we dance around and worship. We always seem to be thinking and saying, "what if". But the all problem solving "what if" never happens. That is because it already happened. Jesus was born and died and raised. I'm certain that if that didn't happen, people would be saying "what if" God came down to earth in human form and died for our sins....

I also did not expect to hear this sermon from you Anne. It just proves to me that understanding and fully grasping what is in another person's mind and thoughts is extremely difficult. I believe that the greatest communication is still often clouded by our perceptions of another's thoughts, oftentimes misunderstood completely or only fragmentally understood. I know the following does not relate to the sermon, and perhaps "beating" the dead horse again, but I need to say that I am a bible idolator in the sense that I believe that God did directly inspire people to write AND that he would not allow any information in that book to be so inaccurate as to lead us astray. Truth can be made more clear,
it can be expanded BUT it can never change else God becomes not faithful,
and not trustworthy. I do not take everything in the bible as literal,
using the classic examples of the 7-day creation (although I believe if
God wanted to do it in a week our time he could) and I of course, don't
believe God wants me to pluck out my eyes or cut my limbs off if I sin.
Cultures do change; usually from good to bad and then vice versa, that is
of course, if God doesn't decide they are so bad they need to be eradicated! In your sermon, you stated, "If God just took away the snakes
from the people here, it would be just like it never happened and the people would go back to their old ways. Could it not also be said...
if we begin to look at the Bible as being "incorrect" and not "endorsed"
by God himself, then folks begin to doubt God's faithfulness and trustworthiness and it becomes not more than a book to be forgotten....I have been observing that bible "relativism" is creeping into society...is this yet another attack on Christianity? Is it the beginning of the time when Jesus said when I return will I find any one left who knows the truth or has any faith? I would think that society in raising doubts about the validity of scripture would be the beginning of that process. Sorry if I'm rambling, my gift is definitely not writing and I'm on my lunch break!