Welcome to Sermon Talkback! Each week the topic will be
the sermon from the week before, and we'll have a chance to share, debate, discuss, and delve further into whatever issues come up. If you weren't in church at St. John's, you can read the sermon at www.annerobertson.com. You can also read it or listen in RealAudio at www.stjohnsdover.org.

Please remember that God is always here with us, even in cyberspace. Keep your language clean and charitable. You are perfectly welcome to disagree with me or anyone else, but please don't make disagreements into personal attacks or malign the faith of someone else. I will delete such messages and block the sender from this board.

So, has anything been epiphing this week?

REf.: Last Sunday's sermon " Servant "

It seems to me that truth is often multilayered with GOd's word speaking different to different people; appropriate to their personal [psychological and intellectual ] make-up and situation.

You are absolutely right. God's call to us as individuals is always based in the gifts and passions we have and considers the type of personality we are.

God also seems to like pushing our envelopes out a bit. God's servants in Scripture are often like Moses..."Who me? I can't speak well, God. You must mean somebody else." Or Isaiah, "Woe is me, for I am a man of unclean lips." But in those cases God stands ready with a gift to remedy the situation...Aaron for Moses, a coal from the altar for Isaiah.

What I believe stays the same is the foundational calling to love. Love is multi-layered and multi-faceted and has infinite means of expression. When love is only focused inward, even the secular world calls that a psychological disorder...narcissism. Love must reach out to be balanced, which is why I believe that the job of God's servants always includes going out...even though the form of that love takes many and varied forms.

Thank you Anne,
You brought us what we all needed.
-------------------


Music , a gift of God in times of tribulations.

When sorrow , sadness and shock is so great that it overwhelms rational thinking - words often cannot reach us - not even God’s word.
Then music often does what language is unable to do. Bypassing our rational it goes directly to our heart, as a message from the kingdom of God where our Lord has prepared a home for those who love him.

For me - and for many others - Beethoven’s adagios are such messages. I cannot help but believe that he composed them under the guidance of the Holy Spirit

The second movement of his fifth piano concerto is one of many such adagios. It is of indescribable, unearthly beauty and comfort. No matter how often I hear it, I always get the feeling [sensation ] of a messenger descending from heaving to comfort the afflicted.

Helmut

Congrats, Anne, on a very spiritual and moving service. There were many moistened eyes accompanying the poignancies. It was a pleasure to fight the snow and horrendous driving to sit in the place of High Spirit on a day in which could be found so much sorrow and need. Many shared, and many found solace.

Also, great to see you on the first page of the Sunday Herald! Great article on a great pastor..and a superb person.

Edited by author 02-09-2003 08:12 PM
Today's sermon was one of the most powerful yet, in terms of trying to shake up the mechanics of Christian worship by applying some pure spirit aura to it. It's a real problem for many, as they see the physical structure of the church (its building, songs, people, friendships, "moments") as nearly the total sum of their religion. Following on the heels of the Epiph sermon, and in many respects a direct companion thereof, today's insights brought home very powerfully the need for us to find that magic moment when we actually sense God talking to us. Not the vague sense that somehow "He's" listening to us. Not that feeling that perhaps we met God in the final refrain of today's song. If you have never cried real tears of joy, speechless with wonder at what you've just experienced because of such a moment, then you probably will have found Anne's words discomforting today. Because by asking people to focus less on the grind and rules of engagement, and more on this elusive but utterly transforming joy..many find they have not really sensed that "replacement of self" that occurs when "the Touch" comes. I wish you would..I know you can! It's very hard and quite easy..you have to open yourself to all possibilities, be asking for it, expect it, don't try to shape it or anticipate it..and then, when it occurs, you have to believe it. The new pastors Anne spoke of in her sermon have all found that truth..it's the place you take off from..it's the door closing on the place you can never go back to. You will not get there with ego, planning, demanding or controlling..unfortunately very sturdy support posts of our lifestyle. You have to, in the words of a late poet, "surrender to the Void." I don't mean to sound preachy..and I wish I could offer you more guidance..but do go back and take to heart what Anne was saying about the fears she and other leaders had, that the requirements of Methodist human structure would wear at the rare and wonderful connective tissue to the Spirit of these joy-filled people. And thank you, Anne, for taking us once more on a journey outside our comfort zones, the only place where true spiritual growth can take place. Very courageous, very loving.

Dear Anne thank you for today’sermon.
 
Cheap and cold comfort.

From our own experience - Helga’s and mine - we know how it can hurt when people with no serious problems of their own give advise which does not cost them anything; especially when these “comforters” are in a position to give material help.

Yet! We as Christians believe:

‒ God’s love is infinete, eternal and personal. It also is directed towards each of us .

‒ God’s power is infinte . He never runs out of possibilities, no matter what happens or whatever people will do, he will attain his ultimate goal

Enough reason to face each new day with condidence? O yes!

Helmut and Helga,

Amen! Yes, we are often too quick to say, "I'll pray for you," when the rest of our thought is "that way I won't have to actually put myself out to give you what you need."

May we always be reminded...

This week's sermon did me a lot of good, as did last week's. It's good for me to be reminded that things that seem bad when they are happening can work for good. Someday, I will probably be able to look back on the things in my life that aren't going well now and be able to see good in them.

It's hard not to fall into self-pity when so many things seem to be against you. I don't know about other people, but when I'm focusing on everything that isn't going my way, I find it hard to be nice to the people around me. Things really aren't that bad in my life, and I'm just starting to realize that. A few things haven't been going the way I've wanted them to at all, but encouragement keeps coming. The sermons from this week and last both make me really think about other people who have so much less than I do... people who don't get discouraged and who don't drown themselves in self-pity. Things really could be worse for me right now. Some things in my life do need to change, but I cannot do it on my own. God can take care of those things. While I wait to see what happens next in my life, I can do my best to work with the things that I do have.

Lauren,

What a beautifully honest post. While we shouldn't squash our grief over the losses we have and the pain we experience, getting mired in self-pity isn't helpful either to us or to others. Because someone else is worse off doesn't mean our pain isn't real, but it sure does help keep our own troubles in perspective! With God's help we can make it through anything...even death.

I've found that the things I've gone through in life give me a way of helping others who go through the same things. God bless you...

Anne,

Anne,

A few minutes ago I was writing a friend in Florida about this Sunday's wonderful sermon, the beautiful music, and the very special moment when the whole congregation (many tearfully) came to the front of the church to place their hands on the blankets made for Holly and Sarah, which you were holding. As I was writing, a line you have said so often came to mind, "God is in this place." It certainly was. The feeling of unity and of God placing HIs hands, with ours, on those blankets was overwhelming. It was a feeling that can only be described as "Love". Barbara

Dear Anne,

I wanted to thank you for your wonderful sermon and message on friendship. It has helped me in a relationship I have been struggling with concerning a co-worker of mine. Your words on choosing our friends and that they see the world the way we do kept popping into my head and then finally touched my heart. I realized that I have been trying to befriend someone who does not want that relationship, and who clearly does not see the world as I do. A light bulb went off and I felt the peace that I have been praying for around this troubling situation settle upon me.

Anne, God spoke to me through your sermon! I thank God that he opened my heart to hear your message.

Love,

Jackie

Jackie,

I'm glad the sermon helped. I really think we have the notion of friendship all muddled in a lot of cases. We don't have to be anyone's friend...it is a free choice. While it is often helpful to poke around in a relationship to see if there isn't some common view that can be the foundation for a friendship, often that poking comes up empty and we realize that a relationship will remain only on the surface. That's not anybody's fault anymore than it is when lovers don't find "chemistry." There just isn't going to be a bond of that depth.

Thanks for the post!

Ref. Sermon on "giving to the Lord"

Ruth - the young daughter- was feeding Schnauzie the family dog which she loved very much.

She put dry dog food in his tray. Schnauzie sniffed at it and then, digusted , pushed it away.

Ruth felt sorry for her pet and promised Schnauzie, that the next time the family had steak for dinner, she, Ruth, would give hers to him.

Sunday came and the family had steak for dinner.

O did it smell good to Ruth! She thought about what she had promised, but concluded that it would be alright if she cut
a tiny bit off her steak and eat it. It tasted so good that she cut off another not so tiny piece; and another , and another, till nothing was left but the bone.

When the other members of the family had finished eating their steaks, Ruth took the bones from all the plates, put them to the bone on her plate and gave the whole pile to
Schnauzie, saying:

 " I am really sorry old friend. It was supposed to be a sacrifice, but ended up being only a collection."

It's rare that I see one of these anecdotes that is new to me, but you've found one...great! I also appreciate the dog references. :)

Edited by author 03-16-2003 02:17 PM
The Spirit Power and Honesty flowing freely, Birds circling the church in playful joy, a warm sun returning the winter snow to spring puddles, today Anne presented one of her most brilliant sermons yet. Does it get any better than this?! Touching on one of the most sensitive subjects known to mankind, marital infidelity and sexual relations in general, Anne brought forth her usual mix of self-experience, Biblical insight and deep understanding of humanity..and had us in stitches and tears much of the time. Her reading of the passage concerning the woman who could bear no children brought a gasp, and tears to my eyes. Now THAT’S an epiphany for one Anne Robertson..and for us! A member and I were talking after the service, discussing the Catholic tradition. That tradition prohibits women from being pastors and preaching the Word. Can any of you imagine the true depth of loss to the service of God had Anne been a Catholic and relegated to a nun’s duties. Never would we have heard her contagious, self-subsuming laughter. Never would we have known the intense pain of her past life that informs so much of her compassion and wisdom..a life she would not have even had if she’d gone straight to the habit. Her deep thinking, her genius at bringing God’s instructions into the 21st century..all would have been lost. So I say thank you to the God who rescued her from obscurity and brought her into the living light of the flame of the Holy Spirit. That light shines brightly on we who are lucky enough to sit in her services. Truly her take on sexual relations as being part and parcel a spiritual one is right on the mark. In other traditions, the act of falling rain is seen as a love-making act between Father Sky and Mother Earth, for the water brings forth life as surely as do man and woman. If one looks, one can see that same spiritual oneness in all living things, making us all brothers and sisters. Anne acts as mother to us all, and can you think of anyone outside your immediate family to whom you would turn to for help, love and understanding before her? So in her role as mother to St. John’s, she fulfils the act of oneness and love that sexual relations bring to marriages. We applaud today’s teaching, stressing the need to remain faithful to the chosen course. While all acts are part of one’s path and therefore worthwhile as teachers of the spirit, surely the more noble acts are closer to the intentions of the One who created us. I have never strayed from my vows to my spouse because I could not live with the tears on her face that such an act would bring. At the very heart of my relationship with her is a love of who she is. I could never deliberately damage that. I also can look at our wonderful pastor and shake my head in disbelief that anyone could hurt her. But all things being possible, pure Love takes the sting out of those that vie to kill us. When will we all realize that we are spirit beings living in the physical world, not physical beings trying to reach the spirit world. Both worlds exist side by side. The Holy Spirit courses through all things. So take today’s wonderful teaching to heart and long for and demand loyalty to one, simple concept: when the going gets tough, the tough get loving! I gave my love a golden feather..and within a few months, she gave one back to me.

Thank you. I have forwarded your praise to the God who really gets the credit and made a mental note of who I should ask if I ever need a PR person!

On a side note, I am glad I found my calling where I did, and I do disagree with the Roman Catholic position on women's ordination, but I think God managed to use Mother Teresa quite well in her role as a nun. I know you didn't mean to make that sound like a lesser calling...just wanted to be sure that was clear. :-)

Oh, absolutely no intention to place nun's work or devotion in a negative light. You as a nun, on the other hand..perhaps it might have worked in that way..one never knows how the Spirit will move. Just an attempt at comparing what might have been to what is. That sort of endeavor is always subject to challenge, and rightfully so! All that really matters is what is!! Thanks again for a great sermon!!

Dear Anne,

Your sermons always resonate with us for a long time, thinking about what you said over and over again.
In last Sunday's Sermon you did put into words what we deeply have felt about love in marriage and love for God.

Thank you

In Christian love

Helga and Helmut

You state strongly and often that sex, particularly in marriage, was meant to be a mirror of our relationship to God.You said the sex act is holy and it is an act of God.

For those of us who are decent people, who care for and help others, and are happy and faithfully married, who don't believe in God, should we feel guilty in the sex act.

Do you have an opinion of a relationship between a man and a woman in their 70's and 80's, who desperately need companionship? Would engaging in sex be condemned?

Manny,

Nobody, under the conditions you described, should feel guilty in the sex act. It mirrors God because of the loving nature of the act and the faithfulness of the relationship, not because the people involved believe in God or not. People who don't believe in God often end up showing the love of God, even though they wouldn't think so or believe it.

People of any age should be careful about how they use their sexuality. To my mind, it should always be in the context of love and commitment...it is meant to express the unity of two souls. Especially later in life, that may or may not mean legal marriage. There are a number of very good reasons for older lovers to avoid a legal union. I would still hope that the intent was faithfulness, however.

There are very few cases where I would use the word "condemned." There are plenty of things that are unwise because of consequences they will produce, but I would reserve the word condemnation for criminal acts. Even there, it's not like I believe there can be no forgiveness.

Of course, in all of this, there's always the possibility that I'm wrong!

Anne,
Ref.: Your sermon this morning

Amen, Amen , Amen !

Thank you for remindung us again and again that the essence of GOd is love.

On the lighter side

Ref. Todays reading of the O.T. Obadiah

Said the old Obadiah to the young Obadiah: " I am dry, I am dry!"
Replied the young Obadiah to the old Obadiah: " So am I, so am I !"

[an old toast]

How delightful to have a moment of humor. Thank you for that and for your support. The TV reports since I have been back at home have really afflicted my spirit.

This comment is from a friend in Florida and is used with permission...

I wonder if part of people's worry about who is sleeping with whom is the great power that is often held over another with sexual intimidation in the mix. Most, if not all, of the OT laws pertaining to sex dealt with protecting the weaker from the stronger. Those in positions of power or perceived positions of power simply cannot abuses that position with sexual suggestions and intimidation's. Truly consensual sex of any sort can only happen between equals.

Homosexuality cannot be used as an excuse for teens going to a party unsupervised by adults -- parents, or an excuse for not doing their homework. Abandoning someone's commitment to their own children just because they discover they are gay after begetting them is, in some cases, both a fear and reality for the hetero partner of the couple. Abdication of responsibility to their other commitments by the homosexual who finds out later in life that is more their orientation is sometimes a reality.

Excusing people from responsibilities because of their orientation should not be condoned any more than it is for someone of other races or religions. We should judge them on how they treat others, not who their sex partner is. We expect gays to follow the golden rule. We should treat them and everyone as we would be treated.

So many good points were made in the sermon today, but I disagreed with some of them. Something that I wnat to make very clear right from the start is that I completely agree with all my heart that the Church and Christians should not shun homosexuals or exclude them from worship. Homosexuals have every right to learn about and have a relationship with God. They are people and were created by God, but I do believe that homosexuality is wrong. I Corinthians 6:9-11 says, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Here, the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong but that it is possible for people to change. I know someone who was a homosexual, but he met God and changed his ways. I do believe that Brett knows God; I will not question that, but the Bible does clearly state that homosexuality is a sin. That in no way means that the homosexual should be cut off from the Church; on the contrary, he should be brought in closer and shown love and should be allowed the chance to experience God. It was mentioned in the sermon that there was a protest at the Dover High School about how God hates fags; how wrong. He does not hate the fag, only the practice of homosexuality; there is a difference.

The people who push homosexuals out of the Church are not doing their best as Christians to show their faith and their love through their actions. They are telling the homosexual that he is being rejected and condemned and are giving the completely wrong impression of God. They are making it seem like there is no way to change or to be forgiven. I do not believe that God would make someone a homosexual right from the start and then tell him that being who he is is sinful.

I Corinthians 6:9 also talks about drunkards not making it to heaven, unless they change their ways, which is possible. The drunkard can stop drinking and be sober for years, never touching alcohol. Chances are, the former drunkard could still have the urge to drink long after quitting, but if he doesn't go back to his old ways, he hasn't committed that sin. The same goes for the homosexual, as I see it. It's not the urge for a same sex relation that is the sin, but the acting on that urge.

If someone does not know God and is a homosexual, he cannot be held accountable for what he is doing. If someone claims to know God, he needs to live by what the Bible teaches, which speaks against homosexuality. I have no question, as I have already said, that Brett knows God and is a Christian. We all sin; we all make mistakes; we all misinterperet things; we are human. That's why we can all repent, be forgiven, and start over.

When God created people, He made man and woman together and put them together on the earth. When He makes reference to couples and marriage in the Bible, He speaks of men and women being together. Someone once told me that "the Bible tells as much by what it omits as what it says." It's enough that it always refers to male and female relationships, but it goes as far as to say that same sex relationships are sinful. I just thought that was something to take into consideration. Also, I was told that there is somewhere in the Bible that talks about a man not lying down with another man; I don't know where it is. If someone else knows, I'd like to be able to see it.

To me, the notion of "sin" implies a victim.

This means to me, a l l relations - heterosexual, homosexual or nonsexual
may be sinful or they may be neutral or they may be blessed by GOd, depending on the degree they foster love.

I am thoroughly heterosexual and completely monogamous.
and so is Helga.
I enjoy the company of women even somewhat more than the company of men, because women are what I am not and cannot be, but need to partake in to be fully human.


I fully accept as fact that there is a percentage of people who physically are born male but in their psycholocial make-up are female or the other way around.
I also accept that they form homosexual bonds where others form heterosexual bonds.
These bonds too may be sinful, neutral or they may be blessed by our loving GOd.

This is the way we see things.

Helmutand Helga Fickenwirth - who accept the bible as the word of GOd absolutely necessary for our spiritual life, as followers of Christ, but who never-the-less refuse to grant St.Paul infallibility in all what he wrote.

Dear Anne,

Brett is a courageous and inspiring young man. His faith in God is a powerful witness that we can do anything through him who gives us strength. It is not easy to make one's self so vulnerable by opening up your heart and soul as Brett did yesterday before our congregation. There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus was there with his arm around Brett's shoulder as he took that great leap of faith and shared his story so eloquently. I felt such a rush of love and emotion as the congregation stood and applauded Brett afterwards. Regardless of our individual opinions on this subject, we were unified in Christ's love at that moment and it was powerful!

God bless,
Jackie

What must it have been like for St. Paul, I wonder, to be able to say with absolute certainty that certain groups of people are not going to "inherit the kingdom of God"? What is it like for us? I can say from personal experience that it can feel very satisfying to feel like we have some control over our ultimate destiny, to have "cracked the code" that puts people in their ultimate place. It seems, though, that God has said enough in the Bible alone to completely confound any of our notions of who's in and who's out. Sometimes God blesses the righteous for remaining faithful to Him and to His Covenant; sometimes God curses them for not being faithful enough to each other despite their apparent love and reverence of Him. Jesus Himself seemed to turn all concepts of righteousness on their heads when he declared that "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (I'm thinking primarily of Luke 14:7-11). All of this is enough for me to lay low in terms of even wagering a guess. If we learn anything from St. Paul, it is that we are all condemned in our sinfulness, and it is but by the grace of God that any of us are justified at all.

This being said, I would like to raise some important questions (without answers) regarding the use of I Corinthians 6 against homosexuality: Have we fully taken into account the possible ambiguities of the Greek word that can be translated here as "homosexual offenders"? Are we prepared to then make the leap of suggesting that homosexual persons are barred from the Kingdom of heaven? Keep in mind that alcoholics are also included in this list, and that it is a fairly banal fact that we now understand alcoholism to be a much more complex condition than St. Paul would have. How do our modern understandings of alcoholism (and homosexuality for that matter) affect how we view this passage, if at all? Also, by suggesting that alcoholism or homosexuality (not to mention idolatry or greed, also mentioned in I Cor. 6) are sins to be overcome in order to "inherit the Kingdom of heaven," are we then suggesting a system of salvation by works? Do this and you will be saved? These are questions to which I offer no answers here (because I'm still thinking about them too!), but which will, I hope, provide some food for thought as we slog through this difficult topic.

Also, the question has been raised regarding a difference between having a seemingly natural homosexual orientation and being a "practicing" homosexual. What exactly does that mean? What exactly are we talking about? Are we talking about two women living together? two men living together? specific sexual acts? specific non-sexual acts (e.g. two women holding hands, two men holding hands, two women or men deciding that they enjoy holding hands on a regular basis)? Then the question is, how do we respond to persons who understand their homosexual orientation to be a natural part of who they are? What is the role of God in the presence of that orientation? What of persons of homosexual orientation who enter into long term covenanted relationships together who understand their relationship to be characterized by selfless, self-giving love? What is the role of God in that love, if at all?

These are perhaps more questions than anyone wished to think about. They are all open-ended, to which I purposely offer no answers. But these are the types of questions that I think we would have to at least think about if we are going to honestly tackle this issue. And we certainly do need to engage the Bible at the same time; I am thankful to receive frequent reminders to take the Bible seriously on this and many issues. Pray for me and for each other, as we approach the Word of God and this issue with grace and humility.

Just to weigh in briefly on the "homosexual offenders" passage in 1 Cor. 6. Even before we go underneath the English text to see what the Greek really means, our prejudice is at work. If the English read "heterosexual offenders," we would never assume that all heterosexuals are offenders. We would assume that Paul was talking about those who are heterosexual who commit offenses related to their sexuality...rape, incest, pedophilia, and adultery come to mind.

So why, when it says "homosexual offenders," do we leap to the conclusion that to be homosexual is to be an offender? Paul wouldn't have needed to add the qualifier of "offender" if that were the case. To my mind, that interpretation falls down before we even get to the Greek. An anti-homosexual bias is read into the text.

I hope everyone picked up (or will) the handout at the church on the Biblical passages and their liberal and conservative interpretations. More complete information can be found at www.religioustolerance.org.

To err is human.

Helga and I hope and pray that when we err it is always on the side of love.

This soecifically includes our convictions about the ongoing war as well as homosexuality.

Helga and Helmut

Please bear with me here. I know this is a very long entry, but I plan for it to be my last on this subject. I've tried to make sure I've included Scripture references for anyone who wants to check on my material.

If we say that some parts of the Bible are true and others false, who's to say which parts are true, which are false, or that it holds any truth at all? I was taught to take the whole Bible for truth. Not only I Corinthians, but also the Old Testament, speaks of homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22 says, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." You can read farther on in the chapter to see what else is said about the subject, but you have all you need to know right here. God does not agree with homosexuality, which is, in no uncertain terms, a man or a woman "lying" with a person of the same sex.

It's true that our actions do not get us to heaven; those of us who make it there make it because God has been merciful enough to forgive our sins. However, we are commanded again and again in the Bible to try with all that we are to obey Him. True love of God will get us to heaven. God says in John 14:15 (I'm so glad to have a concordance!), "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Of course, we cannot obey Him perfectly; thankfully, He knows that, so if we try our very best to learn what He wants of us and to do as he commands, if we repent of our sins and keep trying our best for Him, He will be pleased.

God doesn't just say, "Here. Try to figure out what I want and what I don't want. If you figure it out, if you "crack the code", you can have eternal life." He gives us specific instructions, certain dos and don'ts, which we are to follow, as well as specific callings on our individual lives. We are judged not only on our works but also on our hearts.

No, I did not mean that works alone will get a person to heaven. Once we have the faith that we need, the works will come. I found that in James 2:14-26.

I don't believe that sin necessarily implies a victim because God gives us a choice of free will, as well as tells us right from wrong. Romans 8:3 talks about "sinful flesh." We are sinful from the start. We have a choice; thankfully, if we choose the wrong way, it can be made right with God.

Certain heterosexual "relationships" are picked out and spoken against in the I Corinthians passage that I chose. If God accepted homosexuals on the same level as heterosexuals, why wouldn't the "sexually immoral" and "adulterers" cover both relationships? Why were homosexual relationships specifically separated from heterosexual relationships?


I, too, sympathized with Brett. I was one of those people with tears in my eyes who applauded when his sermon was finished. He amazed me with his open heart. The story of his struggle and his rejection was heart-breaking and, all the more so, because he was one of those people that the church failed to love and to present with the opportunity to recognize God's love and mercy. I have no doubt that he loves God, and it would be so easy and natural for me to fully accept him as he is without question. However, what Scripture says will not go away. I can't ignore it; homosexuality is wrong.

Romans 1:24-27
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I'll make this short, too. My position is that the Bible was handed down for many decades by oral tradition, prior to it's being written down for the first time. Those who think that the Bible is a verbatim transcript of a conversation with God are probably going to run afoul of the Truth. At best, like all ancient documents, it serves us better as a general guideline, designed to allow one to set up a relationship with the Creator that fits one's own make-up. And here is the key. One's own make-up MUST be viewed as a gift from that same Creator, or else one is allowing for error and a lack of control by the One who knows all, a mistake by Pure Love. Therefore, the best we can hope to ever do is to establish a personal relationship with God, and then watch for the signs of the Presence. I have physical evidence of my Guardian Spirits, and have seen "God" speak to me on many occasions. It just took me years to realize how to figure it all out. I know that EVERY action I ever took in my life, no matter how good or how condemnable, has led me to this happy place. Therefore, to try to fit human behavior into a perceived set of boundaries that judges some as good and others as bad defies one of Jesus' most cherished teachings, and the one I feel is the most important, beating the Lord's Prayer by a mile. In fact, every service should end with these words: "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone." How often do get together with friends or family and discuss in great detail how we ourselves have failed to honor our fellow life walkers and to follow the Path of Truth as mapped out by Jesus. No...we get together to judge others..their behavior and words. 90% of American humor is built on casting aspersion on others' behaviors and words. Yet, these same are gifts from God, designed to help us build a closer relationship with the Savior through the comparison..not to use that comparison to tear someone down. We are not to cast stones at others..we are to study our own "sin." So, in closing, I ask all to revisit your relationship. Is YOUR Jesus just "out there, somewhere" or truly walking beside you. Do you compare YOUR every thought and action to what it might have been instead of talking about others' behaviors, realizing that whatever YOU did you served the cause of Truth by your honest and humble participation in life. I would suggest looking for that tiny opening into the real world of the Holy Spirit, where our Allies and Ancestors truly live, full of love and guidance, ready to aid you in finding YOUR Jesus. For, because each person is gifted uniquely, no two people can have the same relationship with Him. Therefore, don't worry about others unless they are actually hurting your relationship with the Lord. Hold onto that stone until you are truly fit to throw it. And by the way, did you get the final lesson in that parable? He who WAS without sin didn't cast the stone, either. I truly value the opinions expressed here already by those with their own God-given gifts, as they are wonderful aids in helping me see the Truth more clearly. Therefore, I honor and respect these prior inputs. Peace and healing be with you.

Lauren,

Although I disagree with the conclusion in your post, I have to come at it with grace because I once believed as you do and for the same reasons. Do keep your love of the Bible as the Word of God. It was my initial devotion to Scripture that made me take it literally and believe every word as it appeared on the surface. It was my continued devotion to Scripture that eventually led me to the lively and loving Spirit at its core...a Spirit who now appears to care more whether something is loving than whether something is "biblical." It is the same kind of distinction between whether something is just or whether something is legal.

Now I have a much broader sense of what it means to say that the Bible is "true." The parables of Jesus, for instance, are true, even though Jesus was just telling stories that never actually happened. The parable of the prodigal son is completely true, even though Jesus does not mean for us to think of those people as a real family.

The whole story in Acts and Paul's letters of how the early church reached out to include the Gentiles showed how the Holy Spirit was willing to declare entire chunks of Scripture as relevant only within the cultural context of the Jews. Read in the Old Testament story of Abraham just how important it was to God that all the males be circumcised. Nobody took that out of the Bible, but the Holy Spirit in Acts 15 instructs the Disciples to fully accept the uncircumcised Gentiles, even though the Old Testament (which was the only Bible they had) clearly said otherwise.

So please do maintain your love of the Bible. Read it cover to cover. Ask yourself of every passage what it means for that passage to be "true." For instance, the last verse of Psalm 137 says, "Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us--he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." What does it mean to say that verse is "true?"

Wrestle with those questions even as Jacob wrestled with the angel, and you, like Jacob, will come away with a blessing.

It's been a while since anyone has posted a message here. I hope this is still active.

Your talk about communion hit a familiar chord within me. Whenever we go through the liturgy and say Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy, I feel a kinship with the first generations of Christians who uttered those words. Whenever I take the bread and cup, I feel strangely strenthened by the spirit of all those that have gone before. Their hope of the resurrection is my hope. Their Lord is my Lord. Their Savior is my Savior.

"Us Protestants" need to remember that the Church we broke from held the light of Christ for nearly 1500 years before Luther came around. The Spirit that moved within the saints before then, moves within the saints of today.
Maranatha!

Amen and Amen! We all share one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. For me, the words and the actions make that a felt reality. That church we broke from in the 1500s had some major abuses that needed correcting, but we Protestants threw out many valuable babies with that bathwater. Kyrie eleison.

Ref. Lord’s Supper /Eucharist

Many sincere Christians - especially in Europe and even more so in Germany - are sick and tired of theological wrangling between the Catholic and the Protestant churches.
They consider it scandalous that in a time of secularism Christians may not celebrate the most sacred Christian rite together.

The annual “Deutscher Kirchentag” [German Church Day ] is a weeklong mass convention of the Christians in Germany with many indoor and outdoor events. This year’s Kirchentag – going on this week in Berlin - is the first one in which the Catholic Church officially participates. The pope even has sent his blessing . At the same time he forbade joint celebration of the Eucharist/Lord’s Supper.
But many Catholics ignored the pope’s proscription .
In at least two events of the Kirchentag Catholic priests and Protestant ministers jointly officiated at a Catholic mass and a Protestant Lord’s Supper. More than 2000 Christians filled the church to capacity and many more took part standing outside.

Over 200 000 people are reported taking part in this Kirchentag, many from the neighboring countries.
Ruediger Minor - Chairman of National Council of Churches in Germany and UMC bishop for the area of the former Soviet Union and presently president of the Council of Bishops of our church is one of the busiest officials of this Kirchentag. He has been booked for twelve events.

Helmut and Helga

For Helmut and Helga:
In my travels and readings, I heard and read that Germans had "liberated" themselves from Christianity and were now leading the way towards a "post-Christian era" Europe? Of course the Bavarians would have to stop their "archaic greeting": Gruss Gott!!!

And yes, despite the different theological interpretations of the Lord's Supper, I too have had the distinct pleasure of being at the same celebration of the Lord's Supper with Protestants and Catholics present. May it happen again and often! (I'll be back after I read the next sermon.)

Good morning all, what were the ideas you gave out along with the $10 bills? Our congregation too is facing a financial mountian. About three years ago we embarked on an ambitious building project ($100,000) because of real growth at that time in the congregation. It was part of a five year plan to become a church capable of supporting our own pastor. Now we've seen that growth disappear so that the congregation is half the size it was. However the debt remains.

Steve,

Those building projects are tough, aren't they? Anyway, here's the list...
Buy Soap and Sponges and wash cars. Buy shampoo, a large tub, and wash dogs. Buy a pooper scooper and walk dogs. Buy gas and mow lawns. Buy a rake, gloves, trash bags, and clean out gardens. Buy fabric to make a quilt to sell. Buy supplies and give lessons. Buy CDs and teach line dancing (or ballroom or tango...)Rent a movie, show it for free (copyright laws) but charge for the popcorn. Buy cleaning supplies and clean houses. By a CD and offer singing telegrams. Buy groceries for yourself and be a housesitter. Buy gas and give boat rides. Buy an organizer and be a personal shopper. Buy thick gloves and install window air conditioners. Buy even thicker gloves and prune roses or other thorny vines. Buy supplies and detail cars. Buy wood and build a birdhouse to sell. Buy ingredients and give cooking lessons. Buy some samples and give decorating advice. By thread and offer mending or alterations services. Buy a wrench and offer bike repairs. Buy gas for your truck and offer hauling services. Buy storage containers and help someone get organized. Buy supplies and create scrapbook pages. Buy spray starch and iron shirts. Buy a calculator and balance checkbooks. Set up a table and offer blood pressure checks.

Pool resources with a friend and:
buy ingredients for goodies and have a bake sale. Buy advertising and have a yard sale. Buy sheet music and form a band for hire. Buy transfers and create custom T-shirts. Buy supplies to host a dinner.

That's the formal list. We are also having a Festival of Talents on August 9 to give people an opportunity to sell things they have made or to use their $10 to have a face-painting booth, a game booth, to go together and get a dunk tank...fun stuff.

So we'll see what happens. Your note reminds me that I should develop some stewardship pages for this site. That is one of my strengths (even though my church is currently in the financial tank!).

Thank you Anne for alerting us to the various forms temptation can take.
For me - and most likely for many other people - the temptation to do something - which - were it be known , everybody would recognize as sin, is considerable less than the temptation to do nothing in cases where action is required from me as someone who proclaims to be a follower of Christ..

This week's sermon about freedom and law reminded me of the times I spent in Baptist and non-denominational churches. I've always thought of it as two sides of the same coin: judgement and love. There are churches where hell fire and damnation is the emphasis. Others emphasize that God is Love. I'm firmly of the belief that some of the hell fire and damnation churches need a good dose of God's Love, and the God is Love churches need a good dose of hell fire and damnation. Oh the spiritual paradoxes of Christianity....

Yes, I think it is all about balance. Predictably, I have my issues with hellfire and damnation sermons. I don't think fear should ever be a Christian's ally, and trying to win people to Christ by scaring the pants off them seems exactly contrary to the gospel to me. But I do agree that the truth somehow holds judgement and mercy in tension. God is bigger than the preconceptions of either the left or the right.

I do not think that God has an “every things goes” character. Preaching judgment is necessary but the typical hell fire preacher aim generally at what I think are the wrong targets: personal sins and shortcomings which often do not hurt anyone or not very much.

Much hell fire preaching shows a god with dual character – one loving and the other revengeful and tyrannical. This is not my image of God. Jesus shows us God as the loving father whose [severe] judgment is reserved for those without love and without mercy, not for those who do not know or speak the right password.

Helmut and Helga

Courage to be different


As Bill showed with the examples in his sermon , courage comes in a variety of flavors.

I came of age in the early fifties , actively participating in the life of a Methodist {Episcopal Church] congregation in East Germany. One of the messages I heard over and over again was:

As a follower of Christ you march to a different drummer. Blindly conforming to the values and mores of the general society in which one lives is not an acceptable option for a Christian.

I strongly believe as Christians here and now our need for courage to be different is as great as it was for Christians then and there.

I enjoyed your comments about God's Judgement in your sermon today. I don't know how to process the concept of the second coming of Christ. I have a hard time envisioning a rapture as depiced in the popular "Left Behind" series. Any alternatives?

Yes, there are a whole host of alternatives for the Rapture, and twice as many for the Second Coming. For example, there are those who believe that the Second Coming has already taken place...that when the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, that was it. Others believe it is more personal and individual and consists of meeting Jesus at our deaths.

Of those who have a more traditional view (clouds, trumpets, etc.) there are still all sorts of options, some of which include a Rapture, others of which don't. And even of the Rapture believers, there are debates strong enough to separate churches on whether the Rapture comes before what is known as the Great Tribulation, in the middle of it, or at the end.

For myself, I don't find that it matters all that much. I do know that when I was in my late teens and early twenties, I lived by the theology of the Left Behind series. As a result, I was not a very pleasant person to be around. Spending my life worried that some of the people I loved the most could be "left behind" drove me to beat and badger them with the Gospel in an effort to save them...efforts which only served to support their theory that this was a lunatic religion with nothing to offer them.

Think about it. The message was, "God loves you. And if you don't believe it, he'll leave you behind to the fires of hell for eternity." What an absurd message! And, as I said this morning, it is insulting to God. I would not do such a thing to any of the people I was worried about. And if I wouldn't do it, why do I think a loving God would?

God is love is the one thing of which I am certain. I am content to leave the rest in God's loving hands.

Just a funny sidenote to the sermon on "From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead." Apparently the consensus in the choir was that turtles and sloths were safe from judgement, since they are neither quick nor dead! :-)

The Negative Side of Almsgiving

Can Almsgiving be Evil?

Yes! Definitely Yes! Why do economic conservatives promote almsgiving and voluntarism so wholeheartedly?
What are their motifs? Is it possible that their hearts are touched more by the suffering of the poor, than the hearts of other people? I have my doubts.
When rich and privileged conservatives sing the praises of philanthropy and voluntarism I become suspicious. Widespread poverty in countries with an high average personal income like the USA and most of Western Europe is always rooted in the country’s social and economic system. No amount of almsgiving and voluntarism has the slightest chance of eliminating it, not even reducing it to an socially acceptable level.
Almsgiving and volunteer work, without working for a change of the system responsible for poverty in the first place, means shifting what should be the responsibility of the society as a whole - i.e. the state - to the good-hearted people, leaving the rich and well-to-do with all their wealth over and above what they never could have accumulated in a society which values social justice.

Yes almsgiving and volunteerism is indispensable for alleviating poverty and suffering in the short run. But only a change in the social system has a realistic chance of reducing it to a morally acceptable level in the long run.
As followers of Christ we have duty to do work on both.

Conditions such as exists in the rural areas and inner cities of the USA are a severe indictment of our social legislation, our economic system and with it also an indictment of the values and priorities of our nation.

Helmut,

You're absolutely right. The way I often talk about this dilemma is as two different issues...acts of justice and acts of mercy. Acts of justice are the kind of things you are calling for and for which we do far too little...that is the work for systemic change. Acts of mercy help the poor, for example, get by in the moment. Acts of justice delve into the roots of poverty to see how sometimes even our acts of mercy contribute to the poverty we are hoping to eradicate.

Putting someone up for a night in a motel is an act of charity, working for affordable housing is an act of justice. We need both things, and you are right in saying that we rich nations, especially, are notoriously bad at the acts of justice part...often because it means we must change how we live and behave and give up some of the benefits that unjust systems confer on the rich.

Just a quick comment on some of your comments on kindness.

 “To say that God is kind is to say that God forgives, that God loves so extravagantly that even those who have violated God’s will can be accepted back home as the Father in the parable welcomes the prodigal. When we realize our own failings we understand the power of forgiveness. It is a gift to those who don’t deserve it.”

This description works for God’s kindness because we know that through Jesus, God shared our problems and death. We know that God knows the whole picture and what’s “good for your soul.” But, when I do a kindness as “a gift to those who don’t deserve it” too often it come across as a judgement that “I” am better than “they” and I am doing it because I judged them incapable and incompetent. I think this is one of the reasons the US foreign policy so often doesn’t work. Countries accept our help in a crisis but resent us because we show them how they have failed. We assume that what is good for us is good for them and we don’t worry about their “soul.”

Anne - Just in the unlikely case that you did not think of it yourself, here is a suggestion - As an aid to relive your wonderful time in your ancestrial homeland, go to the UNH Dimond libray. Check out the little book "The Green Ray" by Jules Verne. Its about a headstrong Scottish girl and her two indulgent uncles who try to marry her off.To play for time she drags her uncles to the ilse of Iona and Staffa with its famous Fingals Cave,in an attempt to see the mysterious green ray. To make the memories even more vivid,while reading this delightful story, listen to Mendelson-Bartholdy's Symphony #3 - the "Scottish" and his powerful "Fingal's Cave Overure" - Now all you need is time.

Thanks for the book lead! I already have the music. I played it in youth orchestra growing up and have never forgotten it, although I had no idea that Fingal's Cave was a real place at the time. Going to Fingal's Cave myself and singing Amazing Grace inside it was an amazing experience for me. Did you go to my blog and see the pictures? I think they came out pretty well.

Some thoughts on last Sunday’s sermon – Abraham’s sacrifice of his son .

From my very youth have I rejected the idea that this was a story about Yahweh testing Abraham’s obedience, because – to me at least – this showed Yawhe not as a god of love but a tyrant. About forty years ago I read in a systematic theology text a different interpretation, which I immediately adopted and have held ever since: Rather than describing a test of faith, the story describes an epiphany – Abraham’s realization that Yahweh abhors the common practice of human sacrifice. Abraham hears Yahweh saying: “Abraham you are mistaken in your believe that you can honor me your god - as your neighbors do for their god[s]-by sacrificing your son. Get this idea for ever out of your head! ”

Just before your vacation, you slipped into your sermon that we are supposed to love the Lord our God with all our heart souls and strength, even more than we love our children and our husbands. I think you timed it so that you could make a fast getaway. Is it total blasphemy that I have a problem with that concept? I truly can't imagine loving anything more than I love my children; the purity and unconditional nature of this love feels truly God given and precious in a way that no other love seems to be. They are the purpose God has given me. Tell me how that is a violation of His commandments. I thought "Love God, Love one another" had me covered when I began loving my family more than anything I have ever loved.

Betsy, I certainly don't think that loving children or spouse or family is a violation of God's commandments, and didn't mean to imply that. What I do think, though, is that God is to be our first allegiance and having love of God at the top, keeps our other loves balanced below. Like buttons on a shirt, everything is messed up if we don't get the top one right.

Here's an example of how things might play out. Suppose a child gets to adulthood and for whatever reason decides he/she wants nothing to do with God. Furthermore, he (just so I don't have to keep typing he/she) is so bothered by all things religious that he refuses to even speak to any family member that still claims to worship God...he won't even walk into their house. What do you do? And what would be both the short and long-term consequences of what you decide?

I am not a parent and can't speak from that experience. But I can speak as a child of a mother who taught me faith. Let's say some terrorist group captured me and my mother. Someone holds the sword at my throat and tells my mother that I will be beheaded unless she renounces her faith. It's hard to speculate about extreme things without actually being in them, but my prayer is that my final words would be "Mother, without your faith, I have no life to keep." ...or something to that effect. I would be horrified if my mother renounced her faith to save my life.

In a strange way, I feel I love my family more because I love God most. I love God in and through them, and knowing I am doing that makes the love more complete...both my love for God and my love for them. If the thing that receives my ultimate love is mortal, I am lost when they are lost. Of course any parent is lost to a certain degree when they lose a child, I'm not saying that any of this is easy. It's just that giving our greatest allegiance to any human being is a setup for tyranny and tragedy.

Ultimately, of course, we have to work out all these things for ourselves. God is patient and loving and understanding of even the greatest and deepest struggles of our lives. As I also said in that sermon, most of us (including me) are breaking the first commandment long before we get to the issue of family members. For myself, at least, God allows me to work my way up from the small things to the big things. I think by the time we get everything else in our lives ordered enough that the only thing in our lives that ever usurps the place of God is a family member, we'll be pretty darn close to perfect...and therefore much better able to see and understand what God is asking.

In the meantime, I'm just trying to dethrone my computer!

Helmut and Helga's comment relates to that sermon also, and my intention is to respond to the Abraham question on my Bible for Thinkers blog, so watch for it there in the next few weeks.

  
                 Ich bin Leben,
                 Das leben will,
               Inmitten von Leben,
                Das leben will.
                                                  [Albert Schweitzer]


                  I am life
             Which wills to live
             In the midst of life
             Which wills to live.


More than 50 years ago, in a bookstore in East Germany, I came across a small book with the title :
Ehrfurcht vor dem Leben - Leben im Sinne Albert Schweitzers
Reverence for Life - Living in accordance with the spirit of Albert Schweitzer

I have read this little book repeatedly, because it summarizes – like no other book I have ever read, how I, as follower of Christ, ought to live.

Thank you Anne for yesterdays sermon.

Helmut and Helga

Thou Shall Not Kill,

I strongly agree, that politics must be a concern for every Christian and also a concern for the church.

I also think as Ann said in her sermon, that the commandment thou “shall not kill”
Is a very complicated matter.

In this universe life exists always at the expense of other life.

But that does not apply in the case of capital punishment. Here a life is deliberately taken without saving any other life or for that matter benefiting anybody.
It has long been agreed by virtually all sociologists that capital punishment does not reduce the murder rate. The only justification we can bring is, that justice demands that a person is to be put to death.

But justice is not at the apex of moral values.

 Most of us heard the story of the young girl who asks a wise old rabbi, whether God does pray. His answer: :” O yes, God prays every morning :
‘ May my mercy and grace be always greater than my desire for justice.’ ”

About two weeks ago the US Supreme Court decided 4 to 5 that the death penalty for persons under the age of 18 is cruel and unusual.

I sighed a breath of relief: Finally!!!

But it is not an occasion to shout for joy, because:

· Ours was the last country in the world which outlawed capital punishment for minors.
· The 5 to 4 decision – with the Chief Justice among the 4 who voted against banning the death penalty for minors - is shameful.
· The ruling still leaves the American Justice System by far the cruelest among all the nations which Bush claims that they share our values.
· We are the only one among the above mentioned countries which has the death penalty.. In all the 25 countries of the European Union it is outlawed. Russia has abolished it. Mexico has no death penalty and Canada does not have it either. And now Turkey is outlawing it too, to make the country eligible to join the EU.
· We still execute mentally ill people which is also a violation of human rights.
· Our justice system violates human rights is many other ways;
· Minors as young as 11 years old can be prosecuted as adults and given a life sentence without a chance of parole.
· If we add to the sad list the shenanigans the present administration uses to circumvent American and international law in its fight against terrorism , than it is small wonder when the world scoffs whenever our leaders talk about human rights or “our values”.

As followers of Christ we have the duty to speak out in matters like these. As we judge others, God will judge us.

Ref.: Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The worst three lies I have heard in my life time were said to justify wars. They are:

1. The incident which triggered World War II was the fake, simulated attack by the Germans on their own radio station near Gleiwitz on the Polish border. To make it appear that the attacking force consisted of Poles, condemned German criminals from a nearby concentration (protective custody) camp were dressed in Polish uniforms then shot and their bodies placed in strategic positions around the radio station. A Polish-speaking German then did a broadcast from the station to make it appear that Poland had attacked first.


2.
Media Beat (7/27/94)

By Norman Solomon

Thirty years ago, it all seemed very clear.

"American Planes Hit North Vietnam After Second Attack on Our Destroyers; Move Taken to Halt New Aggression", announced a Washington Post headline on Aug. 5, 1964.

That same day, the front page of the New York Times reported: "President Johnson has ordered retaliatory action against gunboats and 'certain supporting facilities in North Vietnam' after renewed attacks against American destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin."

But there was no "second attack" by North Vietnam — no "renewed attacks against American destroyers." By reporting official claims as absolute truths, American journalism opened the floodgates for the bloody Vietnam War.

A pattern took hold: continuous government lies passed on by pliant mass media...leading to over 50,000 American deaths and millions of Vietnamese



3
. In Baghdad, Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan yesterday denied reports Iraq is trying to collect materials for nuclear weapons and building up sites once targeted by U.N. weapons inspectors. He told the Associated Press that such claims were "lies" by the United States and Britain to justify an attack on his country.
  
"There is no such a thing. They are telling lies and lies to make others believe them." He predicted the "whole world" will oppose the United States if it attacks. [Sept. 9 2002 The Washington Post]
 ----------------------------------------------
My comment: War mongers need to be liars. The bigger the lie, the more people are likely to believe it.

Helmut

Thanks for posting your sermons. I always disliked missing sermons (particularly every time I taught Sunday School) and this gives me a way around that problem.

Speaking of Sunday School, I have often used Jesus' temptations as a lesson. Now I have more I can bring into the lesson. Thanks. Teaching older students, if I have one point I try to get across to them is that they need to read the scriptures themselves. The temptations helped me make that point by pointing out that even the devil will use scripture to mislead people. And unless they know the whole story for themselves, they too can be easily mislead. Then I love how the angels do come and tend to Jesus, just as the scripture the devil quoted said they would. They just did it in God's time, after Jesus passed the temptations. Not what would have been Jesus' time if he had jumped.

Edited by author 08-01-2005 09:32 PM
It's always a toss up for me whether to go with Matthew's version of the temptations with the kindly angels or the darker ending in Luke's version where Satan merely backs off "until a more opportune time." It seems the temptation to take the easy way out is repeated later in Jesus' ministry when Peter tells Jesus to quit talking about dying, and Jesus says, "Get behind me, Satan." Was that the "more opportune time"? Was it in Gethsemane? The mystery of the Luke passage always intrigues me. But then I like the angels, too. They're probably grateful Jesus didn't do the jumping off the temple thing!

Thank you for your comments.

haven't been here before. Thanks for stoppping by my place Anne.

Can I ask do you follow the lectionary? and are the commenters usually people from your congregation?

Lorna // see-through faith

a thought for Betsy

I always found it hard in Job that he lost all his children and yet it says God blessed him more than before.

I thought for a long time that if I lost my kids (I have two teenagers) that nothing God could give me could replace them, or bless me more.

but

I'm coming to that place that God does know best and I can trust Him even with my family.

Does that make any sense?

erm me again :)

think I found an answer to one question I asked you

"in the next several weeks, we will be looking at what the Bible calls the "fruit of the Spirit." ... that sounds at least like you had a series of sermons on a topic rather than the lectionary readings. cool

Hi Anne. I was hoping to find the words you read between songs last week. I think it was the middle reading, from some book.....the story where the mother is picturing how she hopes her son will greated by God should he die without repentence. What was the message the story was trying to convey? It sounded like, 'it doesn't matter what you do in life because God loves you so much he will forgive you anyway'.

In what I think is a related comment, a few sermons ago, "Leaving It All", you wrote, "God was love not fear; freedom not law". OK, but to do God's will you need to follow God's law. I feel that is too often ignored; people end up making up their own laws; in effect creating their own God.

I hope my questions/comments aren't too cryptic. I'm trying to keep it short and not preach to a preacher.

Roy, thanks for the note. I didn't post the piece from this past Sunday because of copyright issues and because I didn't yet figure out how to convey the music that went inbetween the spoken parts.

In any case, the book is Good Goats: Healing Our Image Of God by Dennis Linn. The main point of the book as a whole is that Christians have often been guilty of imagining God to be and do things that we would be horrified at in human behavior. We often have this message of "God loves you so much that God came in Jesus to die for you. And if you don't believe it, God will send you to hell to burn for eternity."

No matter what a person has done, the sin is limited in scope because we are human beings who are mortal...limited. Eternal punishment for limited sin doesn't even stand up to the "eye for an eye" Old Testament standard, let alone the "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing" standard set by Jesus.

In general, I think we have trouble imagining how God's justice and mercy can go together, and so we tend to jump on one bandwagon or another. Some go with "cheap grace," (do what you want and God will forgive you) while others are focused on the details of the law and if you cross a certain line you're done in, no matter what.

I agree that we pay too little attention to the standards God has set out for us. The question for me becomes how God's law is presented. You will not see me presenting them in a "Do this or else" style. That's not how God presented the Law to Israel. It was offered as a sign of the covenant, which Israel was free to either accept or reject.

Israel freely bound themselves to God's Law as a response to God's liberating action in freeing them from Egypt. I want to preach God's law in the same way...as the terms of the covenant we take upon ourselves when we respond to what God has done for us in Jesus. Israel broke the covenant many, many times...as has the Church. And yet the Bible is always returning to the promise of restoration. There is punishment and discipline, yes, but those are not ultimate. The recurring theme is restoration, streams in the desert, a new covenant that will be easier to keep.

Coming at it from another angle, it is the same reason that John Wesley opened the Communion table to everyone. He believed (as do I) that it was in experiencing the love and acceptance of God in the height of our sinfulness that we really came to understand what God's grace is all about, and that a changed life is the response to forgiveness, not a condition for it.

Of course it's a huge topic and one that will emerge again and again. Thanks for raising it!

Whew! Quite an answer. Thanks for taking so much time. I have way too many questions to get into it all here (and I don't think this is the right forum for a detailed discussion). I look forward to the topic emerging "again and again".

The thing that makes me feel most uncomfortable right now is that I may answer a question from one of my Sunday School students differently then you would. I'll do my best to let them know your position as best I understand it when that happens.

Roy,

An answer for Sunday School that is both "safe" and true is that 1. God is good and loves us. 2. God wants us to learn to be loving and good ourselves and gave us laws to show us how. 3. The God who loves us is our ultimate judge. Both vengeance and mercy are God's decisions, not ours. Our job is to love God, love others, love ourselves, and do our best. If we mess up, apologize, repent, make amends and try to do better. If someone hurts you, don't hold a grudge or strike back. Get help if you need it and turn it over to God.

"So will God send Osama bin Laden to hell?" they ask. "I don't know," I would answer. "That's up to God. God certainly wouldn't be happy about what he did. God will decide what is best."

Happy teaching!

Yep, I'll definitely use your answer (I hear this question every year). My only hesitation is that I like to answer questions by referring back to the Bible. As a background theme I have going, I'm trying to convince the kids that they need to know what the Bible says on a topic. They are going to hear conflicting guidance from reliable sources and I don't want them to take someone's word on what is right and wrong, truth or lie; I want them to go find out for themselves. So when they ask the question, 'Does God really send people to Hell', I like to also refer them to the Bible. My limited education brings me to the separation of the sheep and goats. I'll couch the reading by explaining your thoughts on our decisions moving us closer or further from God, but I think the reading is a must. Do you have other readings you think more/better/equally appropriate?

Well, there's Romans 9:14-16, "What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy."

Related to that is Isaiah 55:8-9, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." It doesn't address forgiveness directly, but helps to keep us humble when we think we know exactly how God will behave.

There is Jesus forgiving those who are killing him, as they are doing so and not after some act of repentance. There is the thief on the cross. Arguably he is repentant, but it points out that we can't know what goes on between a person and God in the moment of death. An old Spanish proverb comes at the same thing in saying, "There's a long way between the well and the water." It is referring to a person committing suicide, indicating that we can't know what a person does in their final moments, even seconds of life.

And of course there is Jesus telling the disciples to forgive 70x7...reminding us that no matter what God decides to do, our job is to forgive.

So those are some other directions to go.

Nice job. I think it helps a lot when the sermon is so closely tied to current events. I think your point that “such faith isn’t manufactured overnight” can’t be stressed too much. It is tough to suddenly find Jesus in a disaster if you have not looked for him in the good times.

I can’t think of how to word this right, so I’m just going to hope you can figure out what I mean: I was a little surprised of the line, “We are the hope…the people of America and members of the human family around the world..” I would of guessed that “Christian&#