I need help. My housekeeper is from Guatemala, as is her husband. They have lived her for 16 years. On July 11, they went to the INS, thinking that they would finally have all their papers together to be legal. When they arrived with their children, ready to experience their happiest day, what they got was the beginning of a nightmare. Her husband was arrested. (he had been detained by INS once over ten years previous), he was sent to a state prison, and he was deported to Guatemala. He can't come back for two years. They summoned all the help they could find, including a congress woman, and nothing could be done. They awful part of it is that if they had not gone to INS with hope in their hearts, this would not have happened. What can I do for Virginia Sanchez?

Based on personal experience at LAX where I was detained several times for one or two days (a passport of mine was stolen nearly 23 years ago - and is still listed as connected to crimes) I can confirm most of what is written; in particular the part about discrimiation, asian kicking, the swearing and the lack of access to the ambassy and or ourside help. Though I carry a letter from the German governement explaining that I am the real Peter - they generally refuse to verify this; despite the fact that the US ambacssy has been informed, they have informed the INS, and it can take up to 48 for them to even bother to read the memo they received days before arrival. It is quite revolting. But all quite legal - you are not in the US.

Long live posting whatever they want! Personally, I think the boys are agent provocateurs for 1st Amendment stuff, but they don't care what you call crap as long as you do it civilized-like.

Edited by author 08-08-2002 11:29 PM
damn, robert - have you been to lax and seen/heard some of the people that work there? that story as far as the conditions of the room and the behavior of the officers is totally believable. i also would not be surprised if they were detaining foreigners.

also, i am so extremely tired of people telling mark what he should and shouldn't post. it's his weblog. it's my favorite weblog. i trust mark, cory & david to filter out the crap for me and i think they do an excellent job.

chip - i thought that said "unicorn".com and got all excited for a minute.

Edited by author 08-08-2002 11:04 PM
I think you have the basic tension between responsible journalism and (sometimes) not-so-responsible weblog tidbits demonstrated right there. I sure don't take everything I read on a 'blog as fact - nor everything reported by journalists (though of course I would judge something like the NYT as more reliable than a tabloid like, say, Annanova or FOX news.) Sometimes the best forum for this type of story is a group blog like Metafilter. While most of the commenters there aren't journalists and don't follow all the rules of journalism, the collective investigation and insight can really shed a lot of light on a story - once you cut through all the jokes and half-truths and suspicious "authorities." It's not the same as an objective journalistic investigation - which I greatly respect, but it can at times be a wonderful and speedy alternitive source of information and fact-gathering.

I guess we'll have to respectfully disagree on this one, Chip.

The reason I posted this was to try to get closer to the truth on a story that is going to spread quickly.

Note that I posted Brock's reporting, not the Brazilian guy's claim. When I first read the Brazilian's story on IP, I decided not to blog it. After all, there's a lot of bullshit complaining going on all the time. And the story was likely to spread whether or not I posted it on Boing Boing anyway.

But when I found out that Brock was looking into it, then I felt *that* was newsworthy, and that was why I posted Brock's investigations. Brock doesn't bulsshit, and it's less likely that Brock's digging will spread as fast as the Brazilian guy's complaint.

What this article has made me think (I agree with most people here that it's probably only partly true) is that the INS needs a group of neutral observers in its detention areas. I'll bet the Menonites or the League of Women Voters would be willing to supply observers to keep everybody honest. There was a recent story somewhere or other about very young children in INS detention without adult supervision. Maybe a bit of observation wouldn't hurt them either.

Mark and Cory - Thanks for responding to my disagreement on this. I remain uncomfortable at the publication of the story. I'm a wee bit uncomfortable that Dave published it, but I'm really discomforted by the appearance here.

My discomfort arises from two concerns. First, due to the viral nature of the weblog circuit, this story could easily spin out of control. This is especially so since Boing Boing is a primary infection source of blog memes. Remember guys, the respect this place has earned is due to your history of editorial judgement. Don't piss it away.

Second, Dave writes to a more limited audience than those who read the blog circuit. I believe Dave's readership is more likely to apply the appropriate filters.

Lest anybody thinks I'm playing apologist for the INS, that's not the case. What scares me the most is that there is some truth in there that gets lost in misinformation. Brock's position rings true to me: there probably is something to it. If there is, then it's all that much more important that the true facts of the case emerge. Baseless speculation or hysteria don't help.

I can sypathize with anyone who has had to suffer through an INS detention for whatever reason.
But this guy sounds like a drama queen with his tales of filth, tiny cells, people vomiting, etc. On a scale of 1-10,
I'd guess that his screed rates about a 4 for accuracy.

Thanks to everyone for being civil in this discussion of a hot topic.

As in every story of this kind, there are two sides. I don't doubt that there was some kind of action taken by the INS. John Gillmore's friend recounts a similar episode wherein he is made to "voluntarily" sign away a visa.

Was there abuse involved? Depends on what one believes is abuse. I would consider being made to watch "I Love Lucy" re-runs a henious form of abuse; others would think they were in heaven, pass the bon-bons, please.

You get my point. Is every word of the article true? No, I'd throw cash at that bet. Is the INS telling us the whole story? No; I'd double down on that bet.

That said, speaking as someone who was stripped and cavity searched on his way OUT of Pakistan in 1989 after having covered the Afghan war, I can tell you the U.S. isn't the only country with a reputation for being thugs.

It's not a blind faith. There's plenty screwed up with our government. But this is just U.S. bashing. Inappropriate I think on a site... oh, nuff already. Moving on.

To me, the story sounds exagerated. But I have a hunch there's a grain of truth behind it, and I'm glad Brock is on the case.

It's worth posting this kind of stuff, I think. Brock learned about it when Farber posted it, after all.

Wow robertl30, you sure seem to have a more blind faith in the government and in the judgement of the thugs that do their dirty work than about 99.9% of the people I know.

Sure the police hurt people. Sometimes, in an extreme situtation, they'll get hopped up and go overboard. The Rodney King case is an example of that. Not that Rodney King didn't pretty much deserve what he got. He was a criminal doing bad stuff. The cops got out of hand.

So, using that case as a baseline of police abuse... this Brazilian is just whacked. If he was mistreated it's because he deserved to be... but we don't lock people away for days on end and deprive them of water and such. I think maybe something inconvenient happened to this guy, like he was questioned or detained. But not all the silliness of which he writes.

This could be totally true, and is certainally disgusting if it is. I think one of the things that casts a shadow of doubt are his statements such as
Daily, in every American Airport, hundreds of people from the four corners of the world are falling into the claws of these arrogant, racist, brutes, barbarian Nazis, and I think every single citizen of the globe shall contribute in whichever way they can to end this grotesc stain from the face of the free world.
That is quite a dramatic, one could even say meladramatic. That doesn't mean the story is false. The man is from Brazil, English is not his first language, and Latin American writing and descriptions - especially on political issues - have a cultural flavor of drama.
But there are a few things that don't add up - maybe because the whole story isn't out yet. Such as, if this is really happening to hundreds of people daily in every airport, it would seem that enough would complain to their respective embassies that the trend would become public knowledge.
I find it a little fishy he says he used his one call to call a US lawyer in LA (all his belongings confiscated - did he have the US number memorized?) Why wouldn't he make that call to his embassy, instead?
I disagree with those who said the link doesn't belong here. One of the great things about weblogs is they can provide information, rumours, speculation, and sometimes even unreported real news on-the-fly. A weblog is not journalism. It's a gonzo supplement to journalism that can break the rules sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. Mark felt this was important for people to read (I agree) - even if it only might be true. The guy says the regular media wouldn't give him any credence - the web fills that gap (even though the price we do pay at times is hoaxes, half-truths, and unverified info.) I think most people who read a story on the web understand this - the articles do not follow the rules that bind real journalism. Hopefully posts such as this will encourage the media to investigate further, and to prove the tale true or untrue. That's another great thing about weblogs - they poke journalism in the side until they get off their arse and work a bit more.

To robertl30,

You are probably right. After all, there is no known instance of US law enforcement personnel mistreating anyone, right?

Rodney King was a mirage, right?

Now that I have your attention, of course it isn't clear whether this article is a hoax. On the other hand, INS doesn't deny that the guy had interaction with them, and claim to have investigated the incident.

So I have to ask you, how would you feel if it turned out that everything the guy says is true? Because it sounds to me like you are in denial.

What a load of horsehockey. I got hooked on boingboing because of the insightful, fun, interesting articles. But this thing is just nonsense. It reads like a hoax. I had to stop reading 3/4 way through cause it was just getting too silly. We don't do those things in the U.S. And if we did do something to upset the guy, then the guy deserved it. He either did something or said something bad. Or he was a terrorist. Good riddence. Sheesh.

Edited by author 08-08-2002 11:10 AM
I'm very interested by the people who claim that this article must be a fabrication. Why do they do this?

Are they not familiar with the fact that Ashcroft has introduced unlimited detention without trial for non-US citizens? I've been seriously informed (as a while caucasian UK citizen) _never_ to speak to US immigration unless spoken to, on the basis that if the other guy takes offence, I'll be in a world of hurt.

Remember, civil rights in the US are only available to citizens.

Chip, here's a followup from Gilmore on IP:

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives...00208/msg00040.html

From: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:26:46 -0700
To: farber@cis.upenn.edu

> I have no idea how true this is but it is getting a lot of play in SA and
> the UK. Try putting Ricardo Abude into goggle for references. If true it is
> a serious problem.

It is a serious problem, which I have seen in my own life.

I was visited by a friend (who I'll call Mike) in June 2002.
He's an Australian citizen who I met in the US when he was working in
Silicon Valley and taking yoga classes in the same school I was. He
had a "green card" good for residence in the US. We have been
business partners and good friends for years, and I've visited him in
his family home in Australia, as he has visited me in mine in
California.

In June he told me a strange story. Upon his arrival in the US from
Australia, he was harassed by the IRS and given the same kind of
choice as what Richard Abude has described. The IRS agents took him
into confinement and said that he could either "voluntarily" give up
his green card, or they would hold him imprisoned in their
no-man's-land "for a few days until a judge can hear your case". They
told him that if he lost his case in front of the judge, he would be
immediately deported. They would not allow him to call his
immigration lawyer, or to make any other phone calls before deciding
what to do. If he "voluntarily" gave up his card, then they would
give him a tourist visa so he could finish his trip in the US.

Like too many others, he signed. I read his copy of the paperwork
that they gave him after signing. It made no mention of this Hobson's
choice. It said that he was "voluntarily" asking to give up his green
card. It claimed that he was not under any compulsion. It was a
total fabrication. The document was witnessed and signed by several
INS agents. Those agents perjured themselves.

Mike talked with his immigration attorney while he was in the US. The
INS agents had lied about the result of losing his case in front of a
judge (he would likely get to stay in the US for his visit anyway).

The whole story made me disgusted to be a US citizen. WE are
responsible for this ill-treatment of our friends, neighbors, and
visitors. WE elected the people who created these rules and WE pay
the salaries of the people who abuse these rules. WE need to stop
them. Foreigners are powerless to stop them.

Congress was hoodwinked into giving the INS unprecedented power over
the lives of ordinary citizens. The natural result of giving
swaggering stormtrooopers unchecked power is now playing itself out.
No wonder the rest of the world contains so many people who hate us!

I have visited at least dozen countries, and the country that
mistreats its arriving visitors the worst is the US. We really have
little competition in that regard. I dread entering the US and
subjecting myself to those evil bastards. And I'm a US citizen, who
supposedly has some actual rights despite being at the border!

We used to live in a free country. Evil people are ending our freedom
as rapidly as they can. The lesson that they learned from terrorists
is that terrorizing people *works*. So they are terrorizing our own
populace with constant "alerts"; terrorizing visiting foreigners with
lies, confinement, inhumane treatment, and arbitrary processes; and
tracking everyone's movements and communications to making people
afraid to speak out or organize against them. Just as we can blame
the "good Germans" who let the Nazis take over their country, we must
blame ourselves if we do not stop the evil people who are stealing the
power of American freedom and running amok with it.

    John Gilmore

PS: Dave, please publish this with my name on it. After suing John
Ashcroft last month for making citizens show IDs to fly, I'm sure I am
already on all the government's "screw this guy" enemies lists. But
the worse the treatment the evil INS bastards heap on my head, the
more likely I am to win the subsequent court case against them, ending
their reign of terror. Far too many people are refusing to speak out
about these monsters because they fear retaliation. We have seen in
many other countries that silence in the face of jackbooted thugs just
results in more stomping -- until enough people find their voices.
Here's mine.


------ End of Forwarded Message

I think it was poor judgement to post this article. All we've got here is an unsubstantiated screed, and the suggestion that a respected journalist is investigating. Mark, why couldn't you wait until Brock reported back?

I'm really surprised to find this sort of unsubstantiated, sensational posting on Boing Boing. This story isn't even worthy of Fark.

That's pretty disgusting if true.<br>

"Ricardo is the brother of a friend of mine, a Rotarian from the same club as I, so I'm publishing his story without any doubt that it is completely true."

That seems kinda suspicious.