The small vertical line below is supposed to be always contiguous with the base letter. The rational is that the character should be seen as one whole character rather than a base character and a modifier.

If I may reiterate the background, the vertical line was proposed as against the dot because with use, the dot wore off and disappear from the die before the base character. This was in the days of die casting. Hence, the contiguity of the small vertical line and the base character promoted longevity of the die.

Now that printing technology has changed radically, thank to ICT, the problem of the wearing dot has disappeared but few have taken notice. The under dot now seems to be tolerated because the dot does not wear.

I think the change in printing technology may instigate or ultimately force a change in the standard.

Edited by author 01-18-2008 06:54 PM
Happy New Year all (belatedly)!*

I have a quick question about the positioning of the small vertical line below (U+0329) in the "classical" usage (as opposed to the more commonly used dot under/subdot). Is it:
a) always contiguous with the base letter
b) usually contiguous with the base letter
c) sometimes contiguous, sometimes separate

It's a question relevant to any effort to (1) provide for positioning of the vertical line or (2) design a combined glyph. This is not a question about line vs. dot (I think that was pretty much resolved a while back) but on what the "correct" or "ideal" use of the line is, when it is used.

A separate question is whether any other languages in the region use (or have used) the line under and if so how they position it.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Don Osborn
Bisharat.net
PanAfriL10n.org

*It's International Year of Languages. See http://tinyurl.com/yofvdf

The One Laptop Per Child project (see /m282 & /m331) has a page for people who want to work on localization at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Pootle#Sign-up . For languages like Yoruba not yet in the table, it looks like you will have to add appropriate rows in order to enter your name.

Note link to their page on Yoruba.

Don Osborn
Bisharat.net
PanAfriL10n.org

You're welcome Remi. This message board was set up over 5 years ago in response to some questions about using Yoruba on computers (see /m1). Over the years it has had a lot of input by various people working on various initiatives or ideas. I've also personally tried to post relevant info that I come across with the thought that it is useful to have as much info on Yoruba language and ICT in one place. Or at least one place - this QuickTopic board does not have to be the only one, and different forums or websites can have different approaches.

The particular advantage of this board is that it is somewhat free-form like a public discussion, letting people post as they need to without subscriptions or log-ins, and without the need to conform to a particular structure (for example, you don't have to find the right category to ask a particular question).

Maybe it is a good time to ask those who have not posted lately for updates on their projects or efforts to use Yoruba on computers, the internet, and mobile devices.

Don

Thanks for the updates.

Edited by author 11-23-2007 02:00 PM
During the last four weeks there has been a discussion about keyboard layouts on the a12n-collaboration list. The main topic is plans by the One Laptop Per Child project for a multilingual keyboard for its "XO" laptop. The keyboard layout would be intended to support languages of Nigeria (including Yoruba) or the whole of West Africa.

If you are interested, see http://lists.kabissa.org/lists/archives/pu...a12n-collaboration/ (Note- this list is not an official OLPC forum)

The OLPC layouts are shown at:
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:WAfrica-Alt-1.png
&
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Nigeria_Keyboard

See also /m282

Don

Edited by author 11-23-2007 11:13 AM
Hi Remi,

There are two separate issues. First, you could develop a font by either using the PUA in Unicode (see /m324 & /m327) or by modifying the upper range of an old 8-bit font. This would enable you to produce documents. You could also, with an 8-bit FaYe font, drive the font from the server for a webpage. Such things have been done with 8-bit fonts by people using the N'Ko alphabet to write Manding (Malinke/Bambara).

That would give you some utility but is obviously limited.

The second issue is that for a script to be recognized across devices, platforms and applications in the way you want, the only standard is Unicode. Without a common coding standard, of course, it is impossible to have such intercompatibility. But as we have said, Unicode can't accept proposed scripts whatever their virtues may be - there are just so many and new ones continue to be invented.

The N'Ko alphabet, to use that example again, has just been incorporated in Unicode, but it has been in use for half a century with quite some publication and ongoing newsletters etc. Getting N'Ko in Unicode involved demonstrating that it is in active use.

Sorry there is not better news.

Don

Thanks all for comments so far.
What I would like to achieve with Yoruba Faye, for now, is to be able to type the characters online, or on a mobile phone, just like I am typing these characters.
World domination through the Unicode can wait ;-) unless unicode is the only way to get Yoruba Faye characters into a word processor or virtual keyboard.
Please advise accordingly.

 
Several Nokia mobile phone models apparently have text menu support in Yoruba. Does anyone have any experience with using this? How good is it?

See http://www.panafril10n.org/wikidoc/pmwiki.php/PanAfrLoc/Nokia for a list of models.

TIA for any info.

Don Osborn
Bisharat.net
PanAfriL10n.org

I apologize for bringing up old stuff, but I just ran across something that may have a bearing on this.

QT - Remi-Niyi Alaran wrote:
> I would like to share a writing system that I have developed for
> the Yoruba language.
> ...
> The Ajayi script... has proved difficult to convert
> Yoruba into computer machine code because of the diacritical
> marks.

Actually, it can be *encoded* on a computer without any problem, using Unicode. I have seen problems displaying it, due to inappropriate diacritic placement. A font problem, not an encoding problem (and certainly not a problem with Unicode). But that isn't the real point I wanted to bring up:

> The FaYe system does away with diacritical marks altogether.

There was some discussion in this list about the difficulties of getting a script like this encoded in Unicode, since the script is (as far as I know) not in general use. It turns out there is a systematization of the Unicode Private Use Area (PUA) called Conscript:
   http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/
One could submit a request to set aside the necessary code points in this area for FaYe. I don't know how much of a standing this has as something _official_, but it's probably better than picking your own area in the PUA and issuing a font for it.

(Apologies if this was already brought up; I don't recall seeing it mentioned on this list, but my memory gets shorter as my years get longer.) --
 Mike Maxwell
 maxwell@ldc.upenn.edu

in = reviewing Unicode website and considering Dejavu font for Faye possibilities = mode

> First of all,
> only scripts with established use are approved.

Or scripts which were in established use in millenia past
(hieroglyphics, cuneiform, the Tagalog Brahmi script...). But the general point is correct: Unicode does not set aside blocks for any arbitrary script, otherwise they would be swamped with requests to encode lots of one-person scripts.

> Secondly, the
> developing of a solid proposal for encoding is a bit of work and
> there is a backlog of scripts that have not yet been encoded

While that's true, I believe the reason has to do with the fact that all the easy cases have already been done. What's left are probably under-documented scripts, relatively rare scripts, or ancient symbol sets for which it's not even clear if they really were a form of writing (as opposed, say, to decorations).
--
 Mike Maxwell
 maxwell@ldc.upenn.edu

Hi Remi, One possible approach for fonts might be to encode the characters in the "Private Use Area" (PUA) of Unicode.* This way any special font you make (which would be required anyway to read text in your alphabet) will let you mix with other scripts for translation or explanatory notes, and it won't have incompatibilities with other Unicode text.

Does anyone else have any guidelines on use of PUA in this area? Could Remi do this, say, in the PUA of DejaVu font and rename it, say, DejaVu-FaYe?

As for getting your alphabet in Unicode/ISO-10646, that is not an easy matter at all, from what I understand. See http://www.unicode.org/pending/proposals.html . First of all, only scripts with established use are approved. Secondly, the developing of a solid proposal for encoding is a bit of work and there is a backlog of scripts that have not yet been encoded (hence the Script Encoding Initiative http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/sei/ ).

Don

*See:
Chapter 13 in Unicode 5.0 book (section 13.5) http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/UE000.pdf
Unicode chart "Private Use Area Range: E000–F8FF Disclaimer Terms of Use" http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/UE000.pdf

Edited by author 10-26-2007 06:18 AM
All
My apologies for the delay since posting the Yoruba FaYe system. Thank you for all comments and support so far. There is some work to do before submitting for UTF. I will particularly appreciate help in creating
1) a Linux-compatible and Windows-compatible Yoruba FaYe font
2) a keyboard mapping,
3) virtual keyboard so that users can click 'n' write.
4) integrate font onto OpenOffice suite and Firefox browser
With these four components, it should become easier for people to use FaYe to generate and understand literature.

This is not just about the alphabet. A fatalistic flaw of the Ajayi script is its dependence on adding diacritical marks to the Roman script. It is difficult to read or understand Yoruba without those marks. Unfortunately, it is not easy to add them to online or print literature due to lack of software vendor (no Microsoft code) support for digitisation.

Adé, ẹ wa ni bẹ
Because of lack of diacritical marks, these five words CAN MEAN
Adé, the letter 'ẹ' is there;
Adé, you are there;
Adé, you come to the place;
Adé, you will look for someone to cut;
Adé, you look for someone to beg (someone-else)

PS. I am not a linguist or any sort of language expert. My interest is in helping the next generation of Yoruba learners and in promoting wider cultural / commercial interest in written Yoruba.

I found the Fontforge font-editing software. Can anyone please advise on how to create non-Latin fonts with it? Or recommend other agreeable open source software for attaining 1 - 4 above? In due course, I may seek advice on UTF procedures.

E wa ni be

To echo Don Osborn's thoughts:
 > An alternative argument would be that even a sub-optimal but
 > workable script could that is already established is better to > keep working with than to change.

IMO, the best writing system is one people use. It doesn't matter how bad it is, if it's used, it's probably better than throwing it away and starting with a new one. Look at English, with its awful spelling. Many alternative alphabets have been proposed over the last century or two, and none caught on. Why? Because people could already read and write. And no matter how much better a reformed alphabet would have been (believe me, we waste a lot of time in school learning to spell), none of the alternatives ever caught on.

Or worse, look at Chinese. It would be hard (IMO) to think of a worse way to write; the only advantage is that it allows people speaking mutually unintelligible languages (such as Mandarin and Cantonese) to communicate by writing. Despite the existence of workable alphabetic alternatives, the Chinese continue to use their character system. And they publish books, magazines, newspapers, and have a substantial presence on the Internet.

I would say that much better than trying to devise a new and better writing system, one's efforts could be put to teaching people to use the one they have, and then encouraging them to do so. A thriving
literature written in a bad alphabet is much more important to a language and culture than a lack of literature with a perfect alphabet.
The best writing system is one people use.
--
 Mike Maxwell
 maxwell@ldc.upenn.edu